From NShaheen at nfb.org  Mon Nov  1 19:39:19 2010
From: NShaheen at nfb.org (Shaheen, Natalie)
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 14:39:19 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Summer STEM internships for 10-12 grade students
Message-ID: <auto-000175897041@mailfront2.g2host.com>


Friends,
Are you a 10th through 12th grade student interested in Science 
Technology Engineering and Math (STEM)? Are you interested in making 
some money over the summer? You can apply to have a paid internship 
with the Department of Defense. Visit: 
<http://bit.ly/ax50vV>http://bit.ly/ax50vV for more information. If 
you are interested in information about STEM follow @NFBScience on 
twitter and visit <http://www.blindscience.org/>www.blindscience.org.
Regards,
Natalie

Natalie L. Shaheen, MEd
Education Program Specialist
Jernigan Institute
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
200 E. Wells Street
at Jernigan Place.
Baltimore, MD 21230
Phone: (410) 659-9314 x2293
Email: <mailto:nshaheen at nfb.org>nshaheen at nfb.org
Fax: (410) 659-5129
Visit: <http://www.nfb.org>www.nfb.org

"If they do not learn the way you teach, teach the way they learn" --Anonymous


From corbbo at gmail.com  Mon Nov  1 22:47:35 2010
From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbbmacc O'Connor)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 17:47:35 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Upcoming, free Humanware Webinars for students
Message-ID: <AANLkTinu-_7rp2rH1fu1stCEcL7FerYWwMey6HBNozDv@mail.gmail.com>

Students:

Please see a note forwarded to me below that may be of unique interest to
students.

Corbb O'Connor, President
NFB of Virginia Student Division

---------- Forwarded message ----------*From:* HumanWare<marcom at humanware.com>
 *To:* joehobson at comcast.net
*Sent:* Monday, November 01, 2010 11:17 AM
*Subject:* Webinar: Translating Math Equations to Nemeth Code

Having trouble viewing this e-mail? Click
here<http://visit.humanware.com/e/3332/eb-en-newsletter-175-htm/4QPMU/41443912>

  [image: HumanWare logo. The power is in your
hands]<http://visit.humanware.com/e/3332/2010-11-01/4QPN4/41443912>
                Join us for
a Webinar
on November 10
 [image: ViewPlus logo]
Join ViewPlus for a Free Online Webinar!
  [image: Register]<http://visit.humanware.com/e/3332/egister-527687770/4QPLQ/41443912>


Translating Math Equations to Nemeth Code

Join our braille math expert, Mike Sivill, for an in-depth instruction on
translating MathType equations to Nemeth Code with the Tiger Software Suite.

Creating an Accessible Braille Calendar

Learn the effective use of tables in MS Word to create an accessible braille
calendar for a student's everyday use.

We will conclude with a questions and answers session.

Wednesday, November 10th, 2010
12 p.m. Pacific Standard Time
[image: Picture of a calendar being made using Microsoft Word. The month
"October" is written above the calendar, followed by its Braille
translation.]

To calculate or confirm your time zone, please feel free to use this link:
http://visit.humanware.com/e/3332/px-y-2010-mo-11-d-10-h-12-mn-0/4QPMA/41443912

Cost: free

After registering you will receive a confirmation email containing
information about joining the Webinar.

 System RequirementsPC-based attendees
Required: Windows® 7, Vista, XP, 2003 Server or 2000

Macintosh®-based attendees
Required: Mac OS® X 10.4.11 (Tiger®) or newer

 Space is limited.100 seats available on a first come, first serve basis.
Reserve your Webinar seat now at:
http://visit.humanware.com/e/3332/egister-527687770/4QPLQ/41443912

From nabs.president at gmail.com  Mon Nov  1 23:09:40 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 17:09:40 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: FW: [Greater-baltimore] information on Internship
	opportunity
In-Reply-To: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B03572868@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>
References: <7638A85981599142811F69FBB9508B6B03572868@FPNTEXCBE01.services.local>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik7=VQp2Y_X8wzTF54GAtnJoJytZ1VpiKZVBQGn@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Wilson, Joanne" <JWilson at nfb.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 14:12:19 -0400
Subject: FW: [Greater-baltimore] information on Internship opportunity
To: Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com>

Please distribute to those who might be interested.

Joanne Wilson
Executive Director of Affiliate Action
National Federation of the Blind
200 East Wells Street
Baltimore, MD 21230
410.659.9314 x 2335
(F) 410.659.6893
jwilson at nfb.org
"Voice of the Nation's Blind"

-----Original Message-----
From: greater-baltimore-bounces at nfbnet.org
[mailto:greater-baltimore-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Watson, Bob
Sent: Friday, October 29, 2010 1:49 PM
To: mdpobc at nfbnet.org
Cc: greater-baltimore at nfbnet.org
Subject: [Greater-baltimore] information on Internship opportunity

(I am forwarding this for those who may have an interest. Please feel
free to distribute to others. )



The Smithsonian, in partnership with the HSC Foundation, introduces an
internship program specifically designed for people with disabilities.
The first of its kind at the Smithsonian, the program seeks to empower
participants' sense of independence and enhance their quality of life as
they look towards their futures with optimism.  Exposure to the real
world of work, research, and academics within the supportive and
engaging environment that is the Smithsonian will provide interns with
the ability and confidence to transfer the skills they developed in the
classroom to the world of work.



Eligibility Criteria

The program is open to:

*        United States citizens (or permanent residents) from the DC
Metropolitan Area or attending school in the DC Metropolitan Area

*        Students with a declared academic major, concentration, or
discipline related to the internship (i.e. someone applying for a
history internship, must be a history major, etc.

*        Students enrolled as an undergraduate Junior, Senior, or
equivalent in a degree granting program, at an accredited institution
(*Just-graduated seniors are eligible to apply, provided their
undergraduate graduation date was 6 months before the program start
date)

*        Students with, at least, a 3.0 GPA in the major (as verified by
the submission of academic transcripts)

*        Students with a demonstrated interest in the research and
museological activities of the Smithsonian Institution



Stipend

Up to $4,500 (pro-rated based upon hours) is awarded to the student as a
stipend.  Stipend payments are distributed every two weeks through a
direct deposit via the Smithsonian's Office of Fellowships.



Application Deadline

Applications are reviewed on a case-by-case, rolling basis subject to
available funds. To apply visit http://solaa.si.edu. Register for SOLAA.
Select "internship." Select "Access to Opportunities" Internship
Program. Submit the following application materials:



Application Materials

*        Application

*        Resume

*        Academic essay: 2 pages describing how academic goals,
qualifications, and career aspirations relate to the internship at the
Smithsonian

*        Unofficial academic transcripts from all colleges/universities
attended reflecting a 3.0 GPA

*        2 Letters of recommendation from professors or teachers; if
preferred, a reference can e-mail the letter directly to
interninfo at si.edu.  All letters are kept confidential.  Applicants are
not allowed access to letters.







_______________________________________________
Greater-baltimore mailing list
Greater-baltimore at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/greater-baltimore_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
Greater-baltimore:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/greater-baltimore_nfbnet.org/jwils
on%40nfb.org



-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From nabs.president at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 00:36:31 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 18:36:31 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Bulletin Announcements
Message-ID: <AANLkTik6w8wGJ0ZXnW_cBUoP6ibteWBmC1u8N-E-cYi_@mail.gmail.com>

Hello students!

If you have upcoming student division activities to announce, or news
of events that just happened in October, please send your
announcements to me by Friday for inclusion in the November NABS
bulletin. Thanks!
Arielle

-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From LRovig at nfb.org  Tue Nov  2 00:45:52 2010
From: LRovig at nfb.org (Rovig,
	Lorraine)
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 19:45:52 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Do you need money for college?
Message-ID: <auto-000175947722@mailfront2.g2host.com>


NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND - The NFB Scholarship Program 
application is now available online.  This national scholarship 
program is available solely to persons who are legally blind and 
living in the United States or Puerto Rico.  There are 30 awards, 
from $12,000 to $3,000.  In addition, each winner will be assisted to 
attend the NFB Annual Convention for 2011 in Orlando, Florida.  The 
annual contest begins the first week of November 2010; all documents 
required from the applicants must be postmarked by the March 31, 
2011, deadline.  Applications and full details are available online 
at 
<http://www.nfb.org/scholarships>www.nfb.org/scholarships.  Questions 
may be emailed to <mailto:scholarships at nfb.org>scholarships at nfb.org.
Cordially,

Chairperson Patti Chang, Esq.
NFB Scholarship Committee
NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND
200 East Wells Street, Baltimore, MD 21230
       at Jernigan Place
Office:  (410) 659-9314, x2415;
E-mail:  scholarships at nfb.org;
Website:  www.nfb.org/scholarships







__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
signature database 5583 (20101101) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

<http://www.eset.com>http://www.eset.com

From David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us  Tue Nov  2 01:22:13 2010
From: David.B.Andrews at state.mn.us (Andrews,
	David B B (DEED))
Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2010 20:22:13 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Assistive Technology Specialist Job in Minnesota
Message-ID: <auto-000179287187@mailfront1.g2host.com>


Minnesota State Services for the Blind, SSB, has an immediate opening 
for an Assistive technology Specialist
You can read about the job and apply, at the link below.  Also the 
text from the link is included below.

Dave

p.s.  You can also go to the site
<http://www.careers.state.mn.us/>http://www.careers.state.mn.us/

and search for the job posting number 10DEED000162.



https://statejobs.doer.state.mn.us/JobPosting/2026e930145486bcb98bd363ecc0f00a/Results


Banner image with the text 'Employment, Opening Worlds of Possi





View





REHAB PROGRAM SPECIALIST 3 , Assistive Technology - Blind




$ 22.92-$ 33.99 hourly, $ 47,857-$ 70,971 annually

Date Posted:

11/01/2010
Closing Date:

11/15/2010
Hiring Agency:

Employment & Econ Development Dept
Location:

St. Paul
Who May Apply:

Open to all qualified job seekers
Posting Number:

10DEED000162
Employment Conditions:

Permanent, Full-time
Work Shift:

Day Shift
Days of Work:

Monday-Friday , 08:00 AM-04:30 PM
Travel Required:

Yes
Job Grouping:

Human Resources
Classified Status:

Classified

Job Description:

Provide access technology consultation, design, coordination, and 
instruction services to State Services for the Blind (SSB) customers 
and rehabilitation counselors, so that effective and compatible 
applications and assistive technologies are used. Conduct assistive 
technology assessments and develop timely recommendations so 
cost-effective, compatible applications and assistive technologies 
are used to enable SSB customers to achieve the goals of their 
individual plans for employment. Make recommendations concerning 
assistive/adaptive technology instruction to customers and staff and 
conduct such training when necessary. Ensure that assistive/adaptive 
technology interfaces effectively with standard and customized 
applications and programs, operating systems, and mainframe and 
personal computer systems in varied environments. Technology 
includes, but is not limited to:

- Screen reading hardware and software;
- Electronic note takers;
- Braille embossers and Braille translation software;
- Refreshable Braille displays;
- Screen enlargement hardware and software;
- Optical character recognition systems;
- DAISY DTB playback hardware and software; and
- Closed circuit televisions and other technology options.

There is some overnight travel throughout the State of Minnesota.
Minimum Qualifications:

Please describe your qualifications, experience and knowledge in the 
"Job Specific Questions" portion of Resume Builder in the following 
areas: Failure to address these areas may result in your resume not 
being considered.

At least three years of experience working with blind/visually 
impaired people in the field of Adaptive/Assistive Technology, 
including some information technology expertise, which demonstrates 
the following knowledge, skills and abilities:
OR
Combination of education (Bachelor's degree or higher in Computer 
Science, Information Technology, Rehabilitation Counseling, 
Rehabilitation Teaching, or related field) and one year experience 
working with blind/visually impaired people in the field of 
Adaptive/Assistive Technology, including some information technology 
expertise, which demonstrates the following knowledge, skills and abilities:

Knowledge of:
- Various types of assistive/adaptive technology such as those 
described in Job Duties above.

Skill in:
- Diagnosing and resolving general computer problems- hardware and/or 
software related.
- Diagnosing and evaluating individuals' technology needs, 
performance and capabilities with assistive technology;
- Integrating assistive/adaptive technology with other technology 
applications and programs, operating systems, and computer 
technologies in varied environments;
- Evaluation of job sites to determine assistive technology needs as 
well as possible compatibility with assistive technology;
and

Ability to:
- Develop, coordinate and implement technology recommendations and 
programs to meet the special needs of blind, visually impaired and/or 
deafblind SSB customers;
- Conduct demonstrations of assistive technology; and
- Establish and maintain effective working relationships with SSB 
customers, rehabilitation counselors and rehabilitation technicians, 
other SSB staff, other state agencies, community and advocacy groups, 
related organizations, employers, vendors of assistive technology, 
SSB technology trainers, and the general public.

Your resume MUST contain sufficient detail of past experiences to 
determine qualifications based on the above criteria. Selection of 
interviews will be based on assessment of experience/qualifications.

Employee reference checks will be conducted on all finalists. This 
may include a review of documentation related to job performance. It 
includes contact with the applicant's former employers.

A Criminal History Check will be conducted on those positions that 
have access to confidential information and/or private data, handle 
financial transactions, or enter homes of our clients. Please note 
that a Criminal History Check will be conducted for finalists in this 
position.

In addition, when the position requires the applicant to drive a 
state owned or leased vehicle, a driver's license history check will 
be conducted.

Preferred Qualifications:

Knowledge of
-Conducting needs assessments and job analyses; developing and 
modifying work stations; and selecting, adjusting, and readjusting 
adaptive equipment to meet customers' needs;
- Federal and state laws, regulations, rules, policies and procedures 
related to vocational rehabilitation programs and the ability to 
interpret and apply them in a variety of situations;
- Well-organized, with excellent time management skills; and
- Effective verbal and written communication skills in the 
coordination with customers and clients on assistive technology needs.
Selection Process:

The selection process is a resume-based, skill-matching process. Your 
resume will be entered into a database. If your skills match the 
required skills for this position, the department may contact you.
How to Apply:

You are strongly encouraged to submit your resume to the database 
through the online Resume Builder at 
<<https://statejobs.doer.state.mn.us/ResumeBuilder>https://statejobs.doer.state.mn.us/ResumeBuilder>. 
You may copy and paste your existing resume or let the software 
create a resume for you. You may edit your resume later should your 
contact information or experience change. The Resume Builder also 
collects your work preference information so we can match you with 
this posting and future job openings to which you apply.

To ensure consideration for this position, both new and returning 
applicants need to apply directly to this posting number by checking 
the Apply for this job box found near the bottom of this announcement.

Current State Employees: Please note that employment provisions 
(including but not limited to seniority and leave accrual) vary among 
the three branches of Minnesota State government. When considering a 
job with another branch of state government, you are highly 
encouraged to explore these differences. For assistance, please 
direct questions to both your current and anticipated Human Resources offices.

If you wish to apply with a paper copy, submit your resume AND a 
completed State of Minnesota Employment Application form to: 
Minnesota Management Budget (MMB), 400 Centennial Office Building, 
658 Cedar Street, St. Paul, MN 55155. Be sure to indicate the posting 
number of this job on your application. The paper application is 
available on the State Employment Web and MMB web sites, at any state 
agency HR office, or by calling 651-259-3637.
Contact for More Information:

Sue Zeches, 651/259-7107/sue.zeches at state.mn.us.

Apply for this job





----------







David Andrews
Chief Technology Officer
State Services for the Blind
2200 University Ave. W.
Suite 240
St. Paul, MN  55114-1840
Telephone:  651-642-0513
Cell Phone:  612-730-7931
Fax:  651-649-5927
E-mail:  david.b.andrews at state.mn.us

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From ccook01 at knology.net  Tue Nov  2 03:49:15 2010
From: ccook01 at knology.net (Corey Cook)
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 23:49:15 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] npr
Message-ID: <002101cb7a40$ec1cb0f0$c45612d0$@net>

	Did anyone hear the story on NPR avout accessibility for theBlind?
I thought it was well done!

Corey Cook
Email
ccook01 at knology.net
Facebook
ccook01 at knology.net
Skype
coreym821





From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 04:35:46 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 00:35:46 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] npr: Unfriendly Skies? Blind Passengers Sue United
References: <002101cb7a40$ec1cb0f0$c45612d0$@net>
Message-ID: <0AEE472BE0584C44915457B315AA46B9@D9P3ZND1>

I hope changes are made with airline accessibility as well as other 
inaccessible touch screen inconveniences we have to encounter on a daily 
basis.

Here is the story and link for anyone interested in the NPR story.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130921227

M. Spencer Green/AP
A group of blind passengers is suing United Airlines, claiming that its 
check-in kiosks are inaccessible.

text size A A A
October 31, 2010 from KQED
This week, a group of blind air travelers filed suit against United Airlines 
claiming that the airline's digital kiosks are inaccessible to blind people.

It's not a problem that most travelers think about: How would they get 
through an airport without their eyesight? But something as simple as 
finding out your flight's gate can be a hassle.

Mike May, who lives in Davis, Calif., says he has to ask someone to look for 
flight information on the big digital boards. And checking in using the 
now-ubiquitous electronic kiosks is an even bigger hassle, at least at many 
airlines.

"There's no earphone jack, no audio output, no Braille output," says May, 
who is one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit. So he often has to find a 
stranger with time to help, then hand over his credit card and other private 
information. "It's demeaning to have to ask, it's inconvenient, and it has 
an element of not being safe to have to depend on another person for that," 
he says.

Websites Inaccessible, Too

In fact, the problems start even before they get to the airport, says 
Jonathan Lazar, who teaches computer science at Towson University in 
Maryland. Recently, Lazar took a close look at the websites of 10 leading 
airlines. He found that four of them, including United, are inaccessible to 
blind people; the sites are incompatible with the screen readers that blind 
people use to surf the Web.

 Dec. 14, 2006
Those airlines effectively force blind people to buy tickets by phone, "and 
more than one-third of the time, they ended up overcharging blind people. 
Either charging higher fares, or refusing to waive the call center fee, or 
both," Lazar says.

Lazar says there's an easy solution: Design websites that blind people can 
use. American Airlines and Continental have already done that. So have eBay 
and Target. He says accessible and inaccessible websites look exactly the 
same. The difference is the way that the pages are coded, including labels 
for links and images.

Auditory Guidance

On an inaccessible website, a blind person using a screen reader might hear 
something like this: "Image ... image ... image" or 
"one-four-six-four-six-dot-jpg." Lazar calls it "basically garbled junk."

On an accessible site, on the other hand, blind people hear descriptions 
that make sense to them.

There are similar solutions for touch screens. The iPhone or iPad, for 
instance, can be used by a blind person after a quick change to the device's 
settings. Every time your finger touches something, the device tells you 
what it is. Touch the icon for Facebook, for example, and you hear an 
automated voice saying "Facebook."

May says those examples show that designing devices with accessibility in 
mind is perfectly feasible. And while his lawsuit focuses on airline kiosks, 
they're really just an example of a bigger problem: electronic devices that 
he and others like him cannot use.

"It would be so much easier to build in accessibility from the ground up, 
rather than have to retrofit them after the fact," he says. He says that 
technology can open doors for disabled people, He says that technology can 
open doors for disabled people, but poorly designed technology can also shut 
them out.

Anjelina
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
Albert Einstein

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 11:49 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] npr


> Did anyone hear the story on NPR avout accessibility for theBlind?
> I thought it was well done!
>
> Corey Cook
> Email
> ccook01 at knology.net
> Facebook
> ccook01 at knology.net
> Skype
> coreym821
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 
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From jty727 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 13:56:12 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 09:56:12 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] npr: Unfriendly Skies? Blind Passengers Sue United
In-Reply-To: <0AEE472BE0584C44915457B315AA46B9@D9P3ZND1>
References: <002101cb7a40$ec1cb0f0$c45612d0$@net>
	<0AEE472BE0584C44915457B315AA46B9@D9P3ZND1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimQEXD1j-ERU_Er46DBNPzxJzbCLTAOBs5=Mp38@mail.gmail.com>

It is my understanding by President Obama's signing into law the
Twenty-First Century Communication and Video Accessibility Act on
October 8, 2010 that all stuff like this should be accessible from now
on.  I don't recall the specific language of the bill because its been
awhile, but basically its another piece of legislation which works in
our favor.  Of course though it will take time to be put into action.
However as we all know the NFB has always been involved in matters
like this.  Equality reigns supreme!

On 11/2/10, Anjelina <anjelinac26 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I hope changes are made with airline accessibility as well as other
> inaccessible touch screen inconveniences we have to encounter on a daily
> basis.
>
> Here is the story and link for anyone interested in the NPR story.
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130921227
>
> M. Spencer Green/AP
> A group of blind passengers is suing United Airlines, claiming that its
> check-in kiosks are inaccessible.
>
> text size A A A
> October 31, 2010 from KQED
> This week, a group of blind air travelers filed suit against United Airlines
> claiming that the airline's digital kiosks are inaccessible to blind people.
>
> It's not a problem that most travelers think about: How would they get
> through an airport without their eyesight? But something as simple as
> finding out your flight's gate can be a hassle.
>
> Mike May, who lives in Davis, Calif., says he has to ask someone to look for
> flight information on the big digital boards. And checking in using the
> now-ubiquitous electronic kiosks is an even bigger hassle, at least at many
> airlines.
>
> "There's no earphone jack, no audio output, no Braille output," says May,
> who is one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit. So he often has to find a
> stranger with time to help, then hand over his credit card and other private
> information. "It's demeaning to have to ask, it's inconvenient, and it has
> an element of not being safe to have to depend on another person for that,"
> he says.
>
> Websites Inaccessible, Too
>
> In fact, the problems start even before they get to the airport, says
> Jonathan Lazar, who teaches computer science at Towson University in
> Maryland. Recently, Lazar took a close look at the websites of 10 leading
> airlines. He found that four of them, including United, are inaccessible to
> blind people; the sites are incompatible with the screen readers that blind
> people use to surf the Web.
>
>  Dec. 14, 2006
> Those airlines effectively force blind people to buy tickets by phone, "and
> more than one-third of the time, they ended up overcharging blind people.
> Either charging higher fares, or refusing to waive the call center fee, or
> both," Lazar says.
>
> Lazar says there's an easy solution: Design websites that blind people can
> use. American Airlines and Continental have already done that. So have eBay
> and Target. He says accessible and inaccessible websites look exactly the
> same. The difference is the way that the pages are coded, including labels
> for links and images.
>
> Auditory Guidance
>
> On an inaccessible website, a blind person using a screen reader might hear
> something like this: "Image ... image ... image" or
> "one-four-six-four-six-dot-jpg." Lazar calls it "basically garbled junk."
>
> On an accessible site, on the other hand, blind people hear descriptions
> that make sense to them.
>
> There are similar solutions for touch screens. The iPhone or iPad, for
> instance, can be used by a blind person after a quick change to the device's
> settings. Every time your finger touches something, the device tells you
> what it is. Touch the icon for Facebook, for example, and you hear an
> automated voice saying "Facebook."
>
> May says those examples show that designing devices with accessibility in
> mind is perfectly feasible. And while his lawsuit focuses on airline kiosks,
> they're really just an example of a bigger problem: electronic devices that
> he and others like him cannot use.
>
> "It would be so much easier to build in accessibility from the ground up,
> rather than have to retrofit them after the fact," he says. He says that
> technology can open doors for disabled people, He says that technology can
> open doors for disabled people, but poorly designed technology can also shut
> them out.
>
> Anjelina
> Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
> Albert Einstein
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 11:49 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] npr
>
>
>> Did anyone hear the story on NPR avout accessibility for theBlind?
>> I thought it was well done!
>>
>> Corey Cook
>> Email
>> ccook01 at knology.net
>> Facebook
>> ccook01 at knology.net
>> Skype
>> coreym821
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
>>
>


From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 15:23:49 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:23:49 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
Message-ID: <57A584A024E045799FA407E84F4FB4F7@D9P3ZND1>

Hi all:
I've been wondering your thoughts on the lawsuit against United. I hope changes can be made toward accessible touch screen devices.
A friend posed this question and I was wondering your thoughts. If there are work-arounds for touch screen devices are we just facing an example of the nuisance of blindness?

Anjelina
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
Albert Einstein

From iperrault at hotmail.com  Tue Nov  2 15:33:39 2010
From: iperrault at hotmail.com (Ian Perrault)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 11:33:39 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <57A584A024E045799FA407E84F4FB4F7@D9P3ZND1>
References: <57A584A024E045799FA407E84F4FB4F7@D9P3ZND1>
Message-ID: <SNT111-DS1207E53E8D658853B4D5A4BF490@phx.gbl>


        Good question. But, doesn't the law say that blind passengers need 
an alternative? So, if blind passengers are able to talk to a live person 
when checking in, is that acceptable, or does the law state that blind 
people need access to the exact same technology? It would be great though to 
experience the kiosks.
Ian 



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Tue Nov  2 15:47:56 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 11:47:56 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <SNT111-DS1207E53E8D658853B4D5A4BF490@phx.gbl>
References: <57A584A024E045799FA407E84F4FB4F7@D9P3ZND1>
	<SNT111-DS1207E53E8D658853B4D5A4BF490@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F59A87A3-BBC5-47E9-A417-FF3C35AA0D7D@mac.com>

I would be fine talking to a live person at the checkin counter.

That'd be ok.

However, if all the airlines are changing to this touch screen tech, it'd be more likely for them to simply make it accessible.

Like the article stated, its better to just make it accessible from the ground up, rather then start to retrofit it though.

Jorge




On Nov 2, 2010, at 11:33 AM, Ian Perrault wrote:

> 
>       Good question. But, doesn't the law say that blind passengers need an alternative? So, if blind passengers are able to talk to a live person when checking in, is that acceptable, or does the law state that blind people need access to the exact same technology? It would be great though to experience the kiosks.
> Ian 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From tinadt at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov  2 16:03:28 2010
From: tinadt at sbcglobal.net (Tina Thomas)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 09:03:28 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <57A584A024E045799FA407E84F4FB4F7@D9P3ZND1>
References: <57A584A024E045799FA407E84F4FB4F7@D9P3ZND1>
Message-ID: <002d01cb7aa7$7d6d18e0$78474aa0$@net>

IF speech technology can   be put in to the I-phone to make the touch screen
accessible to the blind, the same can be done for the kiosk. This situation
has nothing to do with blindness being a nuisance, because the technology is
out there to correct the issue. 
Best 
Tina    

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Anjelina
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:24 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit

Hi all:
I've been wondering your thoughts on the lawsuit against United. I hope
changes can be made toward accessible touch screen devices.
A friend posed this question and I was wondering your thoughts. If there are
work-arounds for touch screen devices are we just facing an example of the
nuisance of blindness?

Anjelina
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
Albert Einstein
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tinadt%40sbcglobal.n
et



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Tue Nov  2 16:16:27 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 09:16:27 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
References: <57A584A024E045799FA407E84F4FB4F7@D9P3ZND1>
	<002d01cb7aa7$7d6d18e0$78474aa0$@net>
Message-ID: <FAEEF0B0C6144C4A9D889D3B7E6B3FA0@stanford.edu>

My personal opinion is that it is a matter of education and willingness. The 
airlines need to be made aware and learn about these issues. Then, it 
shouldn't take a law suit just to make it happen.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tina Thomas" <tinadt at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit


> IF speech technology can   be put in to the I-phone to make the touch 
> screen
> accessible to the blind, the same can be done for the kiosk. This 
> situation
> has nothing to do with blindness being a nuisance, because the technology 
> is
> out there to correct the issue.
> Best
> Tina
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Anjelina
> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:24 AM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
>
> Hi all:
> I've been wondering your thoughts on the lawsuit against United. I hope
> changes can be made toward accessible touch screen devices.
> A friend posed this question and I was wondering your thoughts. If there 
> are
> work-arounds for touch screen devices are we just facing an example of the
> nuisance of blindness?
>
> Anjelina
> Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
> Albert Einstein
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tinadt%40sbcglobal.n
> et
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Tue Nov  2 17:08:22 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:08:22 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <FAEEF0B0C6144C4A9D889D3B7E6B3FA0@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <auto-000022444613@mailback2.g2host.com>

Hi,

Check out the rulers that the American Printing House has at 

http://www.aph.org

as one of them does have markings for 1/8-inch measurements.  Most of us learn that 1/16 inch is exactly half way between the 1/8-inch markings and ca 
do pretty well without having a specific 1/16-inch marking.  For example, half way between the 3/8-inch point and the 1/2-inch point is 7/16.  To some 
degree, this is actually easier than trying to count 1/16-inch lines.  I believe that some of the metal tape rulers have either 1/16 markings on the first few 
inches or have a short ruler attached with such markings.  

Could you explain what a perpetual calendar is?

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 2 Nov 2010 09:16:27 -0700, Nicole B. Torcolini wrote:

>My personal opinion is that it is a matter of education and willingness. The 
>airlines need to be made aware and learn about these issues. Then, it 
>shouldn't take a law suit just to make it happen.

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Tina Thomas" <tinadt at sbcglobal.net>
>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 9:03 AM
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit


>> IF speech technology can   be put in to the I-phone to make the touch 
>> screen
>> accessible to the blind, the same can be done for the kiosk. This 
>> situation
>> has nothing to do with blindness being a nuisance, because the technology 
>> is
>> out there to correct the issue.
>> Best
>> Tina
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Anjelina
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:24 AM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
>>
>> Hi all:
>> I've been wondering your thoughts on the lawsuit against United. I hope
>> changes can be made toward accessible touch screen devices.
>> A friend posed this question and I was wondering your thoughts. If there 
>> are
>> work-arounds for touch screen devices are we just facing an example of the
>> nuisance of blindness?
>>
>> Anjelina
>> Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
>> Albert Einstein
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tinadt%40sbcglobal.n
>> et
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 


>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com






From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Tue Nov  2 17:44:41 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 13:44:41 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <auto-000022444613@mailback2.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000022444613@mailback2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <29D94FD3-278C-4226-B794-8928BB4DD97B@mac.com>

Steve:
With all due respect, I think you may have sent this message to the wrong thread.

Jorge




On Nov 2, 2010, at 1:08 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Check out the rulers that the American Printing House has at 
> 
> http://www.aph.org
> 
> as one of them does have markings for 1/8-inch measurements.  Most of us learn that 1/16 inch is exactly half way between the 1/8-inch markings and ca 
> do pretty well without having a specific 1/16-inch marking.  For example, half way between the 3/8-inch point and the 1/2-inch point is 7/16.  To some 
> degree, this is actually easier than trying to count 1/16-inch lines.  I believe that some of the metal tape rulers have either 1/16 markings on the first few 
> inches or have a short ruler attached with such markings.  
> 
> Could you explain what a perpetual calendar is?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Steve Jacobson
> 
> On Tue, 2 Nov 2010 09:16:27 -0700, Nicole B. Torcolini wrote:
> 
>> My personal opinion is that it is a matter of education and willingness. The 
>> airlines need to be made aware and learn about these issues. Then, it 
>> shouldn't take a law suit just to make it happen.
> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Tina Thomas" <tinadt at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 9:03 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
> 
> 
>>> IF speech technology can   be put in to the I-phone to make the touch 
>>> screen
>>> accessible to the blind, the same can be done for the kiosk. This 
>>> situation
>>> has nothing to do with blindness being a nuisance, because the technology 
>>> is
>>> out there to correct the issue.
>>> Best
>>> Tina
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Anjelina
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:24 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
>>> 
>>> Hi all:
>>> I've been wondering your thoughts on the lawsuit against United. I hope
>>> changes can be made toward accessible touch screen devices.
>>> A friend posed this question and I was wondering your thoughts. If there 
>>> are
>>> work-arounds for touch screen devices are we just facing an example of the
>>> nuisance of blindness?
>>> 
>>> Anjelina
>>> Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
>>> Albert Einstein
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tinadt%40sbcglobal.n
>>> et
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 
> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Tue Nov  2 17:57:44 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:57:44 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <auto-000022444613@mailback2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000022445325@mailback2.g2host.com>

Sorry, wrong note.

On Tue, 02 Nov 2010 12:08:22 -0500, Steve Jacobson wrote:

>Hi,

>Check out the rulers that the American Printing House has at 

>http://www.aph.org

>as one of them does have markings for 1/8-inch measurements.  Most of us learn that 1/16 inch is exactly half way between the 1/8-inch markings and ca 
>do pretty well without having a specific 1/16-inch marking.  For example, half way between the 3/8-inch point and the 1/2-inch point is 7/16.  To some 
>degree, this is actually easier than trying to count 1/16-inch lines.  I believe that some of the metal tape rulers have either 1/16 markings on the first few 
>inches or have a short ruler attached with such markings.  

>Could you explain what a perpetual calendar is?

>Best regards,

>Steve Jacobson

>On Tue, 2 Nov 2010 09:16:27 -0700, Nicole B. Torcolini wrote:

>>My personal opinion is that it is a matter of education and willingness. The 
>>airlines need to be made aware and learn about these issues. Then, it 
>>shouldn't take a law suit just to make it happen.

>>----- Original Message ----- 
>>From: "Tina Thomas" <tinadt at sbcglobal.net>
>>To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
>><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 9:03 AM
>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit


>>> IF speech technology can   be put in to the I-phone to make the touch 
>>> screen
>>> accessible to the blind, the same can be done for the kiosk. This 
>>> situation
>>> has nothing to do with blindness being a nuisance, because the technology 
>>> is
>>> out there to correct the issue.
>>> Best
>>> Tina
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Anjelina
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:24 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
>>>
>>> Hi all:
>>> I've been wondering your thoughts on the lawsuit against United. I hope
>>> changes can be made toward accessible touch screen devices.
>>> A friend posed this question and I was wondering your thoughts. If there 
>>> are
>>> work-arounds for touch screen devices are we just facing an example of the
>>> nuisance of blindness?
>>>
>>> Anjelina
>>> Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
>>> Albert Einstein
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tinadt%40sbcglobal.n
>>> et
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 


>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com





>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com






From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Tue Nov  2 18:00:19 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 13:00:19 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
Message-ID: <auto-000025118861@mailback1.g2host.com>

You are right, I did send this to the wrong place, and with a mistake like that, no respect is due.  <smile>

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 02 Nov 2010 13:44:41 -0400, Jorge Paez wrote:

>Steve:
>With all due respect, I think you may have sent this message to the wrong thread.

>Jorge




>On Nov 2, 2010, at 1:08 PM, Steve Jacobson wrote:

>> Hi,
>> 
>> Check out the rulers that the American Printing House has at 
>> 
>> http://www.aph.org
>> 
>> as one of them does have markings for 1/8-inch measurements.  Most of us learn that 1/16 inch is exactly half way between the 1/8-inch markings and 
ca 
>> do pretty well without having a specific 1/16-inch marking.  For example, half way between the 3/8-inch point and the 1/2-inch point is 7/16.  To some 
>> degree, this is actually easier than trying to count 1/16-inch lines.  I believe that some of the metal tape rulers have either 1/16 markings on the first few 
>> inches or have a short ruler attached with such markings.  
>> 
>> Could you explain what a perpetual calendar is?
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Steve Jacobson
>> 
>> On Tue, 2 Nov 2010 09:16:27 -0700, Nicole B. Torcolini wrote:
>> 
>>> My personal opinion is that it is a matter of education and willingness. The 
>>> airlines need to be made aware and learn about these issues. Then, it 
>>> shouldn't take a law suit just to make it happen.
>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Tina Thomas" <tinadt at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 9:03 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
>> 
>> 
>>>> IF speech technology can   be put in to the I-phone to make the touch 
>>>> screen
>>>> accessible to the blind, the same can be done for the kiosk. This 
>>>> situation
>>>> has nothing to do with blindness being a nuisance, because the technology 
>>>> is
>>>> out there to correct the issue.
>>>> Best
>>>> Tina
>>>> 
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Anjelina
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:24 AM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
>>>> 
>>>> Hi all:
>>>> I've been wondering your thoughts on the lawsuit against United. I hope
>>>> changes can be made toward accessible touch screen devices.
>>>> A friend posed this question and I was wondering your thoughts. If there 
>>>> are
>>>> work-arounds for touch screen devices are we just facing an example of the
>>>> nuisance of blindness?
>>>> 
>>>> Anjelina
>>>> Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
>>>> Albert Einstein
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tinadt%40sbcglobal.n
>>>> et
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 
>> 
>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com


>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com









From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  2 18:09:39 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:09:39 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] npr
References: <002101cb7a40$ec1cb0f0$c45612d0$@net>
Message-ID: <EE333F41DF1549F297EB772900B1D44F@Ashley>

No, when was this on air?  Maybe its archived.  Who hosted the show?  I 
listen to Diane Reem usually.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corey Cook" <ccook01 at knology.net>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 01, 2010 11:49 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] npr


> Did anyone hear the story on NPR avout accessibility for theBlind?
> I thought it was well done!
>
> Corey Cook
> Email
> ccook01 at knology.net
> Facebook
> ccook01 at knology.net
> Skype
> coreym821
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From jpj1117 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 19:49:50 2010
From: jpj1117 at gmail.com (Janice J)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 14:49:50 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Braille Note PK for sale
Message-ID: <6329DE65C65E48C1913A2386BFC3C005@Pinkerton>

Hello All,

I have a Braille Note PK, that needs a new home. The reason for the sale is that I do not need 2 Braille note takers. It comes with caring case, 16GB compact flash card, Sendero maps, and I am not sure what type of bluetooth receiver. I think it is the iBlue, or the M1000... 

I have all original packing from Humanware for the PK, as well as 2 chargers for the unit. *I kept one at work, and one at home... I also have all original packing for the Sendero software, etc... 

The device is running the most recent version of keysoft, and has recently had its battery replaced- about a little under half a year ago. It has been sitting up on the top part of my closet, so the battery might need to be recalibrated... but I took it out and tested it recently, and everything runs just fine. 

Asking price $2000.00 plus shipping. Please email: janice.jeang at gmail.com 
Thanks much~

Best,

Janice Jeang 
-------------- next part --------------
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From davidschool97 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 22:24:48 2010
From: davidschool97 at gmail.com (David Thomas)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 17:24:48 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <SNT111-DS1207E53E8D658853B4D5A4BF490@phx.gbl>
References: <57A584A024E045799FA407E84F4FB4F7@D9P3ZND1>
	<SNT111-DS1207E53E8D658853B4D5A4BF490@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <B9E9F25D-C82C-4736-905F-8489BA62AD11@gmail.com>

It happens for all airlines.Why is United being targeted for it?

Sent from my iPhone



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Tue Nov  2 22:27:41 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 18:27:41 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <B9E9F25D-C82C-4736-905F-8489BA62AD11@gmail.com>
References: <57A584A024E045799FA407E84F4FB4F7@D9P3ZND1>
	<SNT111-DS1207E53E8D658853B4D5A4BF490@phx.gbl>
	<B9E9F25D-C82C-4736-905F-8489BA62AD11@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A549F649-1CEE-4933-BD4C-FDDF491DEAB7@mac.com>

Because I don't think you can sue 200+ companies in one move.

Jorge




On Nov 2, 2010, at 6:24 PM, David Thomas wrote:

> It happens for all airlines.Why is United being targeted for it?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Nov  2 22:59:09 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 18:59:09 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <A549F649-1CEE-4933-BD4C-FDDF491DEAB7@mac.com>
References: <57A584A024E045799FA407E84F4FB4F7@D9P3ZND1><SNT111-DS1207E53E8D658853B4D5A4BF490@phx.gbl><B9E9F25D-C82C-4736-905F-8489BA62AD11@gmail.com>
	<A549F649-1CEE-4933-BD4C-FDDF491DEAB7@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AC22E960868F449F8F6839F82BA1418D@Rufus>

I feel the lawsuit is random.  Not every ATM out there talks.  We're not
suing financial institutions for not following Bank of America's example.
Not every touch screen credit card machine in checkout lines is accessible.
Why didn't we go after major retailers to fix this?  My point is that there
are interactions consumers are far more likely to carry out on a daily basis
than traveling by air, and of those traveling, how many of these are going
to choose United Airline?

One of the first things I was told when joining the Federation was that
restaurants do not need to have Braille menus because it is just as easy for
the customer to ask their server what the menu features.  So, how is this
issue of an inaccessible touch screen any different?

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Tue Nov  2 23:08:22 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 19:08:22 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <AC22E960868F449F8F6839F82BA1418D@Rufus>
References: <57A584A024E045799FA407E84F4FB4F7@D9P3ZND1>
	<SNT111-DS1207E53E8D658853B4D5A4BF490@phx.gbl>
	<B9E9F25D-C82C-4736-905F-8489BA62AD11@gmail.com>
	<A549F649-1CEE-4933-BD4C-FDDF491DEAB7@mac.com>
	<AC22E960868F449F8F6839F82BA1418D@Rufus>
Message-ID: <0BFBF6E6-8608-47EF-ACD9-327D70DC3A17@mac.com>

Joe:
Good point.
(I should also point out as far as banks, that Chaise is now accessible as well as long as you plug your headset in.)


Jorge



On Nov 2, 2010, at 6:59 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

> I feel the lawsuit is random.  Not every ATM out there talks.  We're not
> suing financial institutions for not following Bank of America's example.
> Not every touch screen credit card machine in checkout lines is accessible.
> Why didn't we go after major retailers to fix this?  My point is that there
> are interactions consumers are far more likely to carry out on a daily basis
> than traveling by air, and of those traveling, how many of these are going
> to choose United Airline?
> 
> One of the first things I was told when joining the Federation was that
> restaurants do not need to have Braille menus because it is just as easy for
> the customer to ask their server what the menu features.  So, how is this
> issue of an inaccessible touch screen any different?
> 
> Joe
> 
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com




From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 00:24:48 2010
From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 20:24:48 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] internship opportunity
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=xWhj1azP_8OB12HyUfTYXWk=zd0sZaVFmuXkv@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everyone,

Here is an internship opportunity for people interested in science, provided
by the American Association for the Advancement of Science for people with
disabilities.

http://ehrweb.aaas.org/entrypoint/

The webpage says "2010" but applications just need to be sent in by April, I
believe, of the year in which you want a summer internship.

I applied when I was an undergraduate and was offered an internship with
NASA I think, but had to turn it down.

Best,

Kate.

-- 
Kathryn CARROLL
St. John's University College of Law 2013
631-521-3018

From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 01:03:21 2010
From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 21:03:21 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
Message-ID: <AANLkTinkeRcbNKGH+UkB=81fHSD-1eCR-k56d-qOS_aP@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all:
My name is Patrick Molloy and I am a high school senior. As I have
been looking at colleges, I have been told that many colleges use
Blackboard to post assignments. Is Blackboard accessible with JAWS? If
so, how accessible is it?
Thanks,
Patrick Molloy


From clb5590 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 01:08:20 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 21:08:20 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinkeRcbNKGH+UkB=81fHSD-1eCR-k56d-qOS_aP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinkeRcbNKGH+UkB=81fHSD-1eCR-k56d-qOS_aP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimzQRb038dDXZZ7ot-FAeCCQ5svAZeKwTPMMwhr@mail.gmail.com>

It has gotten a lot better recently. You will have to get used to it
of course, and different schools may use slightly different versions,
but i have had an overall positive experience with it. If you find
that you cannot access readings for a class that are on blackboard, or
that you cannot turn things in via that website, then you can always
request your professor to email you assignments and accept assignments
via email. I wouldn't make it a defining feature on whether you choose
to go somewhere or not.

Cindy

On 11/2/10, Patrick Molloy <ptrck.molloy at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all:
> My name is Patrick Molloy and I am a high school senior. As I have
> been looking at colleges, I have been told that many colleges use
> Blackboard to post assignments. Is Blackboard accessible with JAWS? If
> so, how accessible is it?
> Thanks,
> Patrick Molloy
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Cindy Bennett
uNC Wilmington Psychology major

clb5590 at gmail.com
828.989.5383


From skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 01:10:49 2010
From: skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com (Karrie Kinstetter)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 20:10:49 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinkeRcbNKGH+UkB=81fHSD-1eCR-k56d-qOS_aP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinkeRcbNKGH+UkB=81fHSD-1eCR-k56d-qOS_aP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1A995B3544B5479199701A5015763D9D@kerrie025e8776>

Patrick,
I've been using blackboard for about 2 years or so, and don't have many 
problems with it. For Submitting assignments it's pretty accessible. There 
are a few features like the class discussion features that aren't usable, 
but for the most part, it's pretty accessible with jaws.

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Patrick Molloy" <ptrck.molloy at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 8:03 PM
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard

> Hello all:
> My name is Patrick Molloy and I am a high school senior. As I have
> been looking at colleges, I have been told that many colleges use
> Blackboard to post assignments. Is Blackboard accessible with JAWS? If
> so, how accessible is it?
> Thanks,
> Patrick Molloy
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
> signature database 5576 (20101029) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5576 (20101029) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com





From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Wed Nov  3 01:17:58 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 20:17:58 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
Message-ID: <auto-000022451756@mailback2.g2host.com>

Joe,

Have you asked anyone who is in a position to know what the strategy is?  As long as we can't take on every battle at once, we're never all going to agree 
as to which ones we take on.  Still, I think United was the biggest of the airlines and may well still be second biggest.  I suggest that makes the choice less 
than random.  What I have observed is that we have generally picked entities that are significant players in their particular areas with the hope that victories 
there will have the greatest influence.  That means that we don't have to take every institution to court who has an inaccessible ATM because they may 
well make them accessible on their own as they see the big players moving in that direction.  Getting the big players to move also makes the process 
cheaper.

Regarding menus, with the coming of computer-based menus and such, I think feelings have shifted some on that.  Partly, expectations have changed 
because many chain restaurants have braille menus.  It is possible that some of the reactions to particular issues are tied to what we got used to.  For 
example, I was used to getting help with menus in restaurants by the time that accessibility became as public an issue as it is today so having every menu in 
braille just didn't seem as important as other issues of the time.  When ATM's came along, though, suddenly others could get cash when their banks were 
closed and I couldn't.  It was a convenient service from which we were excluded.  What was more, they were computers and accessibility could be added 
to the base units fairly easily and built-in once the expectation was there.  To some degree, the same is true of airline kiosks.  Sooner or later, we'll see 
cutbacks in personnel as more people use them and the alternative service will almost certainly take a good deal more time.  Again, if our accessibility were 
designed in, it wouldn't have to be a big deal and eventually won't be.  While many people don't fly much, as you say, it is certainly far more common than it 
was several decades ago.  The decrease in other forms of transit make it almost unavoidable some times.  However, blind people who do fly are often flying 
for business reasons where being able to navigate and handle such things efficiently is very important.  I suspect that if restaurant menus go electronic as 
some predict, we will probably 
want to be sure we are included, because again, eventually our inclusion won't cost that much and servers will interact less with all customers.  

We are never going to see everything completely accessible, so it will always be necessary to pick our battles.  It is possible that while we're doing this work 
that handheld readers will evolve to the point that they can close the gap some.  Whether my vision of what is happening is what is really the case is hard to 
say because I have not asked.  From where I sit, most of our moves have made sense to me, though, and even those I might wonder about have helped us 
more 
than would have been the case if we did nothing.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 2 Nov 2010 18:59:09 -0400, Joe Orozco wrote:

>I feel the lawsuit is random.  Not every ATM out there talks.  We're not
>suing financial institutions for not following Bank of America's example.
>Not every touch screen credit card machine in checkout lines is accessible.
>Why didn't we go after major retailers to fix this?  My point is that there
>are interactions consumers are far more likely to carry out on a daily basis
>than traveling by air, and of those traveling, how many of these are going
>to choose United Airline?

>One of the first things I was told when joining the Federation was that
>restaurants do not need to have Braille menus because it is just as easy for
>the customer to ask their server what the menu features.  So, how is this
>issue of an inaccessible touch screen any different?

>Joe

>"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 


>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com









From jsorozco at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 01:49:42 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2010 21:49:42 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <auto-000022451756@mailback2.g2host.com>
References: <auto-000022451756@mailback2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <0B695E6814694D5BB67F61A682ED89BD@Rufus>

Steve,

I always respect your thoughtful responses, even when we disagree.  There's
not much to debate here since the action has already been carried out, and
the fact is that the lawsuit will help more than hurt us.

That being the case, I did not ask anyone in power for the logic behind
their approach.  My sense is that I would not have gotten an answer, not
when they didn't bother asking for the membership's opinion as to whether or
not this specific action should have been taken in the first place.  Yes, I
know there was a resolution this past summer, but advocacy can cost far less
than litigation.  When you look at it from a cost benefit angle, the people
you say are mostly flying for business reasons is even more reason not to
make this a high priority since we're still looking at a 75% unemployment
rate among the blind.  Your link between the expansion of computer
restaurant menus and the future potential of the handheld computer itself,
to me, is more reason why we should spend our limited funds on the
manufacturers rather than the distributors, which is to say the producers of
the kiosks and not the airlines that rely on them.

Ultimately, there is no disagreement about the action in of itself, just the
priorities into which these actions fit and the funds used in building the
agenda.  I am a little perturbed that we have moved away from the
legislative halls and focused more on courtrooms to get our message across.

Respectfully,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 



From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Wed Nov  3 02:41:08 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Tue, 02 Nov 2010 21:41:08 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <0B695E6814694D5BB67F61A682ED89BD@Rufus>
Message-ID: <auto-000022452377@mailback2.g2host.com>

Joe,

In general, we are never going to get more blind people employed if we only concentrate on only those things that are done by the unemployed.  We have 
to be concerned with both.  We also have to adopt an approach, not vote on every single action or wait until the convention before we can take a vote.  
There is just too much that happens too quickly to function that way.  If too many members come to believe that too many poor decisions are made, we'll 
have a resolution to change things.

Just as with cellphones, the manufacturers of equipment are not going to do anything until they know they have a market.  In addition, many of the laws that 
have been used for some of these actions do not cover manufacturers directly.  We can make a case that an airlines falls under laws that help us because 
they are a public accommodation, and we might, if things go right, make that mean that these services have to be accessible.  We don't have the same 
legal lever on manufacturers.  It does no good to take someone to court if you will loose because you don't have a legal position.  Ideally, if we had a legal 
position to use, the manufacturer would be a better place to go with a lawsuit, but from my limited understanding of the law, the case is far less there than 
where we might be able to use public accommodation as a lever.  Anyway, I understand that we may not disagree all that much, but I think there is a 
tendency to think that nothing has been thought through, or as you said in your original note, that actions are taken at random.  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Tue, 2 Nov 2010 21:49:42 -0400, Joe Orozco wrote:

>Steve,

>I always respect your thoughtful responses, even when we disagree.  There's
>not much to debate here since the action has already been carried out, and
>the fact is that the lawsuit will help more than hurt us.

>That being the case, I did not ask anyone in power for the logic behind
>their approach.  My sense is that I would not have gotten an answer, not
>when they didn't bother asking for the membership's opinion as to whether or
>not this specific action should have been taken in the first place.  Yes, I
>know there was a resolution this past summer, but advocacy can cost far less
>than litigation.  When you look at it from a cost benefit angle, the people
>you say are mostly flying for business reasons is even more reason not to
>make this a high priority since we're still looking at a 75% unemployment
>rate among the blind.  Your link between the expansion of computer
>restaurant menus and the future potential of the handheld computer itself,
>to me, is more reason why we should spend our limited funds on the
>manufacturers rather than the distributors, which is to say the producers of
>the kiosks and not the airlines that rely on them.

>Ultimately, there is no disagreement about the action in of itself, just the
>priorities into which these actions fit and the funds used in building the
>agenda.  I am a little perturbed that we have moved away from the
>legislative halls and focused more on courtrooms to get our message across.

>Respectfully,

>Joe

>"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 


>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com






From clb5590 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 13:45:06 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 09:45:06 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] a new device being researched
Message-ID: <AANLkTimXQhm1MEZ2jWm5sWFsKNfavLxOxeZPi3P-iB8q@mail.gmail.com>

You can find a lot more information at the website below, but a
professor told me about this. It is basically a device that consists
of a video camera and somehow the images are transfered to pixels that
are felt on a person's tongue. Apparently, research on this device has
shown that blind people have been able to detect where some things are
as well as gain information on signs. I'm not necessarily endorsing
the idea or shoving it off, but I thought it was very interesting and
wanted to share.

http://vision.wicab.com/technology/

-- 
Cindy Bennett
uNC Wilmington Psychology major

clb5590 at gmail.com
828.989.5383


From slabarre at labarrelaw.com  Wed Nov  3 15:16:04 2010
From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 09:16:04 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
References: <auto-000022451756@mailback2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <D76CA7581AFB4B64AF298F85F749C4F7@labarre>

I agree with Steve    .  I am one of those guys who flies often and because 
I live in a United hub, I almost always fly United.  The problem is that 
United has cut back substantially on personnel working the ticket counter. 
They are actively directing people to the kiosks and asking them to check in 
themselves.  Earlier this year, I went to San Fransisco's airport and I had 
very little time to check in because I was on a mad dash from the courthouse 
where I had been part of a legal hearing on one of our cases.  I got to the 
airport and there wasn't a single United employee who could help. 
Fortunately, a kind passenger helped me navigate the kiosk and I got my 
boarding pass.

We have selected United because they are one of the airlines relying more 
and more heavily on these machines and with their merger with Continental 
now in effect, they are the largest airline in the world.  Believe me.  We 
do not act randomly when we engage in these efforts.
Regards,
Scott C. LaBarre, Esq.

LaBarre Law Offices P.C.
1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918
Denver, Colorado 80222
303 504-5979 (voice)
303 757-3640 (fax)
slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail)
www.labarrelaw.com (website)

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged 
information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, 
copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in 
error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, 
and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments 
are covered by the Electronic
Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: <jsorozco at gmail.com>; "National Association of Blind Students mailing 
list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2010 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit


> Joe,
>
> Have you asked anyone who is in a position to know what the strategy is? 
> As long as we can't take on every battle at once, we're never all going to 
> agree
> as to which ones we take on.  Still, I think United was the biggest of the 
> airlines and may well still be second biggest.  I suggest that makes the 
> choice less
> than random.  What I have observed is that we have generally picked 
> entities that are significant players in their particular areas with the 
> hope that victories
> there will have the greatest influence.  That means that we don't have to 
> take every institution to court who has an inaccessible ATM because they 
> may
> well make them accessible on their own as they see the big players moving 
> in that direction.  Getting the big players to move also makes the process
> cheaper.
>
> Regarding menus, with the coming of computer-based menus and such, I think 
> feelings have shifted some on that.  Partly, expectations have changed
> because many chain restaurants have braille menus.  It is possible that 
> some of the reactions to particular issues are tied to what we got used 
> to.  For
> example, I was used to getting help with menus in restaurants by the time 
> that accessibility became as public an issue as it is today so having 
> every menu in
> braille just didn't seem as important as other issues of the time.  When 
> ATM's came along, though, suddenly others could get cash when their banks 
> were
> closed and I couldn't.  It was a convenient service from which we were 
> excluded.  What was more, they were computers and accessibility could be 
> added
> to the base units fairly easily and built-in once the expectation was 
> there.  To some degree, the same is true of airline kiosks.  Sooner or 
> later, we'll see
> cutbacks in personnel as more people use them and the alternative service 
> will almost certainly take a good deal more time.  Again, if our 
> accessibility were
> designed in, it wouldn't have to be a big deal and eventually won't be. 
> While many people don't fly much, as you say, it is certainly far more 
> common than it
> was several decades ago.  The decrease in other forms of transit make it 
> almost unavoidable some times.  However, blind people who do fly are often 
> flying
> for business reasons where being able to navigate and handle such things 
> efficiently is very important.  I suspect that if restaurant menus go 
> electronic as
> some predict, we will probably
> want to be sure we are included, because again, eventually our inclusion 
> won't cost that much and servers will interact less with all customers.
>
> We are never going to see everything completely accessible, so it will 
> always be necessary to pick our battles.  It is possible that while we're 
> doing this work
> that handheld readers will evolve to the point that they can close the gap 
> some.  Whether my vision of what is happening is what is really the case 
> is hard to
> say because I have not asked.  From where I sit, most of our moves have 
> made sense to me, though, and even those I might wonder about have helped 
> us
> more
> than would have been the case if we did nothing.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Tue, 2 Nov 2010 18:59:09 -0400, Joe Orozco wrote:
>
>>I feel the lawsuit is random.  Not every ATM out there talks.  We're not
>>suing financial institutions for not following Bank of America's example.
>>Not every touch screen credit card machine in checkout lines is 
>>accessible.
>>Why didn't we go after major retailers to fix this?  My point is that 
>>there
>>are interactions consumers are far more likely to carry out on a daily 
>>basis
>>than traveling by air, and of those traveling, how many of these are going
>>to choose United Airline?
>
>>One of the first things I was told when joining the Federation was that
>>restaurants do not need to have Braille menus because it is just as easy 
>>for
>>the customer to ask their server what the menu features.  So, how is this
>>issue of an inaccessible touch screen any different?
>
>>Joe
>
>>"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>>some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>nabs-l:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com
> 




From BJLejeune at colled.msstate.edu  Wed Nov  3 17:09:55 2010
From: BJLejeune at colled.msstate.edu (B.J. LeJeune)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 12:09:55 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Volunteers
In-Reply-To: <4CA5CFD4020000F0000F0883@mailhost.groupwise.msstate.edu>
References: <AANLkTi=E=02oHJcNXq=mvWCUbG0kpEZoecZO1VKd1Svu@mail.gmail.com>
	<255B4EA4AEE44EE39FE8B9333C637F11@Ashley>
	<E9A5F66D26A54E5DA94DD181CCA9A78D@stanford.edu>
	<E2C8586D3A4B4DCD8CC53585EB80BC65@Ashley>
	<COL107-DS217BEFE024A64944C75233B5680@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTi=g+pJ6MwPjDCRVDKCNK7MVPq+v202uqoK_yfQ7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimOU3jXhY_wVOVCo_4KnZeRwKNzGJe_LqtQ_B-z@mail.gmail.com>
	<4CA5C3D3020000F0000F0827@mailhost.groupwise.msstate.edu>
	<4CA5CFD4020000F0000F0883@mailhost.groupwise.msstate.edu>
Message-ID: <4CD15113020000F00000D31F@mailhost.groupwise.msstate.edu>

We want to thank those of you who have assisted us.  We really appreciate your help and we wanted to give everyone one more chance to participate.  If you are interested, please see the announcement below. 

Research participants needed: The Research & Training Center on Blindness & Low Vision at Mississippi State University is conducting a study to evaluate an instrument to measure career decision self-efficacy among young adults with visual impairments. Participation will only require about 10 minutes of your time, and your responses will help us create a valid measurement tool to use with people who are blind or visually impaired. Your responses will be anonymous. If you are interested in participating, please follow this link: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/SJ5FJ2L 

Thanks again  for your help.

BJ
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bjlejeune%40colled.msstate.edu
 
 
B. J. LeJeune, M.Ed,CRC, CVRT 
RRTC on Blindness and Low Vision
Mississippi State University
P. O. Box 6189
Mississippi State, Ms  39762
bjlejeune at colled.msstate.edu 
662-325-2694

From mcikeyc at aol.com  Wed Nov  3 17:48:32 2010
From: mcikeyc at aol.com (Michelle Clark)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 13:48:32 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Blackboard
Message-ID: <201011031748.oA3HmYv7010766@imr-ma02.mx.aol.com>

Please be very careful when selecting a school that uses versions other then
version 9.1 in which NFB has deemed accessible.  You may have to go directly
to the university or college Disability Services to gain that information.

 

If a school requires that one uses the discussion points, the only version
that is suggested is 9.1.  I see no reason in using workarounds with a
school when there is a version out there that will work for a blind student.
When we use exceptions in such a manner as this that causes more effort to
do the same work those with sight do not have to go through. If I have to
exude extraordinary effort, I prefer it to be on the content of my work, not
the effort to present it to a professor.

 

The NFB did not go through the ordeal of working with this company to build
an accessible version for us to continue to accept anything less. Especially
when one looks at the price it costs currently to attend.

 

Michelle


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Wed Nov  3 19:57:56 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 15:57:56 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <0B695E6814694D5BB67F61A682ED89BD@Rufus>
References: <auto-000022451756@mailback2.g2host.com>
	<0B695E6814694D5BB67F61A682ED89BD@Rufus>
Message-ID: <DFCE33A0-2C7F-4F42-B481-C720E780DEB8@mac.com>

Joe:
Just a quick comment.

Yes, we're looking at a 75% unimployment, but if we are to change this, it would be nice if we solve both the challenges faced by braille training, etc., as well as the challenges that the people who do work face, because as our attempts to decrease the unimployment numbers take full effect, more and more people are going to use what you say are low-priority things, such as digital kiosks.

However, I do agree that perhaps suing the manufacturors of these items would be more useful then suing the airline.
What I supposed HQ's reasoning is, if we sue the airline, they aren't gonna wanna use these kiosks, and therefore manufacturors are going to have to make it accessible so they can remain in business.

Jorge



On Nov 2, 2010, at 9:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

> Steve,
> 
> I always respect your thoughtful responses, even when we disagree.  There's
> not much to debate here since the action has already been carried out, and
> the fact is that the lawsuit will help more than hurt us.
> 
> That being the case, I did not ask anyone in power for the logic behind
> their approach.  My sense is that I would not have gotten an answer, not
> when they didn't bother asking for the membership's opinion as to whether or
> not this specific action should have been taken in the first place.  Yes, I
> know there was a resolution this past summer, but advocacy can cost far less
> than litigation.  When you look at it from a cost benefit angle, the people
> you say are mostly flying for business reasons is even more reason not to
> make this a high priority since we're still looking at a 75% unemployment
> rate among the blind.  Your link between the expansion of computer
> restaurant menus and the future potential of the handheld computer itself,
> to me, is more reason why we should spend our limited funds on the
> manufacturers rather than the distributors, which is to say the producers of
> the kiosks and not the airlines that rely on them.
> 
> Ultimately, there is no disagreement about the action in of itself, just the
> priorities into which these actions fit and the funds used in building the
> agenda.  I am a little perturbed that we have moved away from the
> legislative halls and focused more on courtrooms to get our message across.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Joe
> 
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From pyyhkala at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 20:04:41 2010
From: pyyhkala at gmail.com (Mika Pyyhkala)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 16:04:41 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Please Help Make Foursquare More Accessible
Message-ID: <AANLkTimh-eN_a6=oFyb3khnV6QbdUk3oE-fu8EzxkBOd@mail.gmail.com>

http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
From: Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>

Hello Everyone,

I am writing all of you to ask that you help us make Foursquare
accessible. Please visit
http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
and add to the comments already posted by letting the developers of
Foursquare know what you
need with respect to enhanced VoiceOver accessibility.

Two of us have posted to the topic so far, but I know there are many
more blind Foursquare users out here, so I am expecting to see a lot
more participation.

Again, please, visit http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9 right now and let your
voices be heard. There will likely be no forward movement unless we
speak up.

Regards,

Darrell
http://twitter.com/darrell

Mika Pyyhkala
MA State President, National Board Member
http://twitter.com/pyyhkala


From stacy.cervenka at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 20:19:57 2010
From: stacy.cervenka at gmail.com (Stacy Cervenka)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 15:19:57 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] VoiceNote mPower- $600 or Best Offer
Message-ID: <AANLkTimieBd_Kc=j4t6D8p7+ywjCg4mbO9VnBV+oXzJ3@mail.gmail.com>

FOR SALE: VoiceNote mPower with a QWERTY keyboard (which is a regular,
laoptop-style keyboard). Also includes the carrying case with shoulder
strap, Keysoft version 7.0 installed on the unit, Keysoft version 7.0
CD-ROM, AC power adaptor, regular print User's Guide, electronic version of
the User's Guide installed on the VoiceNote itself, large print command
summary, Audio tutorial CD, headphones, 9 point serial cable, and a 9 to 25
pin adaptor plug. The unit was purchased in 2006 and has only been used 2 or
3 times. It's in like-new condition. Asking $750 or best offer. Willing to
negotiate. Please contact Stacy at stacy.cervenka at gmail.com or (708)
359-3301.

Thank you very much!
Stacy Cervenka

From jsorozco at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 20:54:24 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 16:54:24 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <DFCE33A0-2C7F-4F42-B481-C720E780DEB8@mac.com>
References: <auto-000022451756@mailback2.g2host.com>
	<0B695E6814694D5BB67F61A682ED89BD@Rufus>
	<DFCE33A0-2C7F-4F42-B481-C720E780DEB8@mac.com>
Message-ID: <402FEDFD9B3141268B31D8A26820E126@Rufus>

Hi Jorge,

I agree with you.  Let's hope a new initiative will come down soon from the
NFB to address the issue of unemployment.  I could be wrong, but the only
real step toward targeting the issue this past summer dealt with the
Randolph Sheppard Act, certainly a great program but not one into which a
lot of people should feel compelled to enter for the sake of being employed.
Filing complaints and taking up lawsuits on issues of inaccessible
technology is a roundabout way of making workplaces more accessible
(traveling more feasible?), but does little to change attitudes about not
discriminating against blind people in the first place.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 



From missheather at comcast.net  Wed Nov  3 22:44:35 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 17:44:35 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
References: <auto-000022451756@mailback2.g2host.com><0B695E6814694D5BB67F61A682ED89BD@Rufus><DFCE33A0-2C7F-4F42-B481-C720E780DEB8@mac.com>
	<402FEDFD9B3141268B31D8A26820E126@Rufus>
Message-ID: <6C04317C1D86408C967AB1934E4E11AE@heathersony>

Hi Joe,
I wanted to put a few things up for consideration. Here's my thoughts 
on the matter.

Firstly, as with all social issues, this matter is not as simple as it 
seems on the surface. Let me demonstrate. We know that a large factor 
in the unemployment and under employment of the blind is the belief, 
on the part of employers, that blind people are incompetent. Yes, 
there are other factors but this one is probably the biggest.

As with all attempts to change attitudes and beliefs in society a 
multi-faceted approach will be most successful. One very important 
facet of this approach is to ensure that blind people are not, 
needlessly, forced to appear less competent in public. When business 
people are meeting independent, blind travellers in  airports, we want 
them to be meeting blind people who are ijust like them; competent 
people doing what one has to do to travel by plane. As we all know, 
just one encounter with a blind person can seriously influence the 
views of the sighted. So, to ensure accessibility for blind travellers 
is not only helping the minority of blind people who independently 
travel by air, it is helping all blind people through the public 
education of would-be employers and co-workers as the sighted observe 
the blind travellers taking care of themselves at airports. I believe 
this is more effective than many may realize.

As for targeting manufacturers, we have a lot less leverage with them, 
in that they have no need to change if airlines are quite happy with 
the product they're already getting. Furthermore, most manufacturers 
of electronic kiosks don't have much of a public image which can be 
threatened by publicly revealing that they discriminate against the 
blind with their product. I don't know the names of any myself. 
However, an airline has a great deal to lose if the public are made 
aware that they are discriminating against the blind. I'm sure you 
would agree that we should use our limited resources to get the 
biggest bang for our buck which undoubtedly comes from confronting the 
airlines and putting their discrimination fairly in the centre of the 
public square where customers can react with their dollars.

Regarding using the courts to the exclusion of other avenues of social 
change, this is not really an argument based on an overview of the 
NFB's activity over the years. We have just been involved in getting 
the Technology act past (sorry, not sure of name) and we continue to 
work on issues such as the earnings limit with social security. We 
have just announced the wonderful partnership with Ebay and continue 
to encourage accessibility online with the website certification 
programme. The Louis Braille coin campaign was aimed at changing 
employment rates, albeit it in the future, by raising braille literacy 
levels among blind students, as does the Braille Readers Are Leaders 
competition. A new initiative is to expand this competition to adults, 
thus challenging blind adults to improve their braille skills which, 
we know, makes them more employable. Though many blind people are 
doubtful of the value of the NFB's part in developing a driverless car 
for the blind, it is absolutely unarguable that lack of transportation 
to and from the workplace is among the top three reasons that blind 
people don't have jobs. We have to address this issue somehow, how 
should it be done? This technology seems to be the most promising yet. 
We may not have cars for the blind in my time but I know how much of a 
difference this will make for the blind adults of tomorrow in terms of 
choice of jobs.

There is no one, big fix, one giant, focused initiative that will 
change the employment situation. Social factors change and so does the 
challenge of employment for the blind. For example, many blind 
professionals lost jobs in the change over from dos-based to 
windows-based computers. It has taken years for us to catch up in the 
technology arena. Similarly, many switch-board operators lost jobs 
when computerised switch-boards were installed, and the same story is 
told of job losses as factories became more computerised/mechanised. 
It is certainly the case that huge numbers of manufacturing jobs have 
been taken off-shore to other countries and are no longer available to 
americans in general and blind americans in particular. Indeed, I have 
heard it argued that there were more jobs for blind people before the 
technology surge of the 1980s. Whether this is the case or not, there 
simply is no justification for saying that the NFB isn't working to 
raise employment among the blind. Look at the employment rates of NFB 
training Center graduates. Unfortunately, there is no simple answer, 
no one answer, no one approach, no one area of focus. Like the parable 
of the man eating an elephant, one bite at a time, so the NFB can only 
take on such a massive social issue in small areas of opposition. And, 
we are making a difference, we are truly making headway, if slowly, if 
in small steps, we are still moving forward. Granted, it may not be as 
fast or as far as you would like but, sadly, this is the nature of 
social change.

Regards,

Heather


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit


Hi Jorge,

I agree with you.  Let's hope a new initiative will come down soon 
from the
NFB to address the issue of unemployment.  I could be wrong, but the 
only
real step toward targeting the issue this past summer dealt with the
Randolph Sheppard Act, certainly a great program but not one into 
which a
lot of people should feel compelled to enter for the sake of being 
employed.
Filing complaints and taking up lawsuits on issues of inaccessible
technology is a roundabout way of making workplaces more accessible
(traveling more feasible?), but does little to change attitudes about 
not
discriminating against blind people in the first place.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net 




From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Wed Nov  3 23:10:16 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 17:10:16 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <402FEDFD9B3141268B31D8A26820E126@Rufus>
References: <auto-000022451756@mailback2.g2host.com><0B695E6814694D5BB67F61A682ED89BD@Rufus><DFCE33A0-2C7F-4F42-B481-C720E780DEB8@mac.com>
	<402FEDFD9B3141268B31D8A26820E126@Rufus>
Message-ID: <A98F09F76EC242FCA58967AEC2BABB4D@MarcPC>

Joe said,

Filing complaints and taking up lawsuits on issues of inaccessible 
technology is a roundabout way of making workplaces more accessible 
(traveling more feasible?), but does little to change attitudes about not 
discriminating against blind people in the first place.

Marc says,
I'm not so sure it does all that little.  Inaccessible products and services 
discourage, and sometimes entirely prevent, blind people from participating 
in life's daily activities.  I think when sighted people see blind people 
participating in the community, particularly when they are participating 
independently, it goes a long way towards changing the attitudes of 
blindness as tragedy, helplessness, and incompetence.  And these are the 
attitudes that need to be changed if blind people are to reach their 
employment potential.

I've heard you mention employment quite a few times, and I'm wondering if 
you have specific ideas for addressing this issue.  This isn't me saying, 
well why don't you share your bright ideas with us if you don't like the way 
things are going! I agree that employment is probably the biggest issue 
facing blind people; though I also think the 75% number is a bit misleading. 
I would be interested in a break down of the stats.  For instance, What is 
the employment rate for college educated blind people who were blind before 
acquiring their education? And for those who became blind after college? For 
those who became blind in their 50's? 40's? and so on.  I'm not aware of 
available data that answer these questions.  That said, it is still the most 
important issue, and so I'm always interested in any ideas people have for 
addressing it.  A law suit is a fairly practical solution to the problem of 
inaccessible products and services.  The solution to the employment problem 
is much less apparent to me.  So I would be interested in hearing any ideas 
you have.

Best,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit


> Hi Jorge,
>
> I agree with you.  Let's hope a new initiative will come down soon from 
> the
> NFB to address the issue of unemployment.  I could be wrong, but the only
> real step toward targeting the issue this past summer dealt with the
> Randolph Sheppard Act, certainly a great program but not one into which a
> lot of people should feel compelled to enter for the sake of being 
> employed.
> Filing complaints and taking up lawsuits on issues of inaccessible
> technology is a roundabout way of making workplaces more accessible
> (traveling more feasible?), but does little to change attitudes about not
> discriminating against blind people in the first place.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 02:32:07 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 22:32:07 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
In-Reply-To: <6C04317C1D86408C967AB1934E4E11AE@heathersony>
References: <auto-000022451756@mailback2.g2host.com><0B695E6814694D5BB67F61A682ED89BD@Rufus><DFCE33A0-2C7F-4F42-B481-C720E780DEB8@mac.com>
	<402FEDFD9B3141268B31D8A26820E126@Rufus>
	<6C04317C1D86408C967AB1934E4E11AE@heathersony>
Message-ID: <35B196EDC0AF46E489AF8A854EAE0934@Rufus>

Heather,

Thanks.  I appreciate your taking a moment to explain things.  I don't know
that I totally agree with all of it, but your explanation helps put things
into perspective.

Marc,

I don't know the exact statistics for the unemployment rate.  I don't know
that the 75% is accurate either, but I think we can agree that the rate is
higher than average.  That being the case, I don't know that we can draw
links to the number of successful training graduates who find employment
without data to back up that hypothesis and would be equally interested in
figures to help us better understand the factors contributing to the
dilemma.

In terms of employment strategies, I've outlined a few in previous posts, so
forgive any repetition, but a few would include:

1. Seek government grant funding to reinstall Jobline.  It was a good
service for people who've yet to conquer the Internet.

2. Host a career fair during or around Washington Seminar.

3. Conduct in-service type seminars at corporations to enlighten human
resource departments on accommodations, etc.

4. Partner up with companies to host fellowships and internships.

The point is to highlight employment head-on.  If I had more time I would
flush these thoughts out a little.  I've thought about beginning a mentoring
network among fellow blind professionals so that we can create an open
channel into the places we work, a kind of guild though this may prove
difficult since such structures are arranged around specialties.  I'd just
like to see a more open dialogue with the various industries.  I suppose
there are special divisions for this purpose, but I've yet to see a division
outside of the rehab folks and maybe education where there is an active
network of people helping each other out.  If I'm wrong, I wish people would
be more public about it in our major publications like the Monitor.

Just a few thoughts while traveling, not using United. LOL

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: H. Field [mailto:missheather at comcast.net] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 6:45 PM
To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students 
mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit

Hi Joe,
I wanted to put a few things up for consideration. Here's my thoughts 
on the matter.

Firstly, as with all social issues, this matter is not as simple as it 
seems on the surface. Let me demonstrate. We know that a large factor 
in the unemployment and under employment of the blind is the belief, 
on the part of employers, that blind people are incompetent. Yes, 
there are other factors but this one is probably the biggest.

As with all attempts to change attitudes and beliefs in society a 
multi-faceted approach will be most successful. One very important 
facet of this approach is to ensure that blind people are not, 
needlessly, forced to appear less competent in public. When business 
people are meeting independent, blind travellers in  airports, we want 
them to be meeting blind people who are ijust like them; competent 
people doing what one has to do to travel by plane. As we all know, 
just one encounter with a blind person can seriously influence the 
views of the sighted. So, to ensure accessibility for blind travellers 
is not only helping the minority of blind people who independently 
travel by air, it is helping all blind people through the public 
education of would-be employers and co-workers as the sighted observe 
the blind travellers taking care of themselves at airports. I believe 
this is more effective than many may realize.

As for targeting manufacturers, we have a lot less leverage with them, 
in that they have no need to change if airlines are quite happy with 
the product they're already getting. Furthermore, most manufacturers 
of electronic kiosks don't have much of a public image which can be 
threatened by publicly revealing that they discriminate against the 
blind with their product. I don't know the names of any myself. 
However, an airline has a great deal to lose if the public are made 
aware that they are discriminating against the blind. I'm sure you 
would agree that we should use our limited resources to get the 
biggest bang for our buck which undoubtedly comes from confronting the 
airlines and putting their discrimination fairly in the centre of the 
public square where customers can react with their dollars.

Regarding using the courts to the exclusion of other avenues of social 
change, this is not really an argument based on an overview of the 
NFB's activity over the years. We have just been involved in getting 
the Technology act past (sorry, not sure of name) and we continue to 
work on issues such as the earnings limit with social security. We 
have just announced the wonderful partnership with Ebay and continue 
to encourage accessibility online with the website certification 
programme. The Louis Braille coin campaign was aimed at changing 
employment rates, albeit it in the future, by raising braille literacy 
levels among blind students, as does the Braille Readers Are Leaders 
competition. A new initiative is to expand this competition to adults, 
thus challenging blind adults to improve their braille skills which, 
we know, makes them more employable. Though many blind people are 
doubtful of the value of the NFB's part in developing a driverless car 
for the blind, it is absolutely unarguable that lack of transportation 
to and from the workplace is among the top three reasons that blind 
people don't have jobs. We have to address this issue somehow, how 
should it be done? This technology seems to be the most promising yet. 
We may not have cars for the blind in my time but I know how much of a 
difference this will make for the blind adults of tomorrow in terms of 
choice of jobs.

There is no one, big fix, one giant, focused initiative that will 
change the employment situation. Social factors change and so does the 
challenge of employment for the blind. For example, many blind 
professionals lost jobs in the change over from dos-based to 
windows-based computers. It has taken years for us to catch up in the 
technology arena. Similarly, many switch-board operators lost jobs 
when computerised switch-boards were installed, and the same story is 
told of job losses as factories became more computerised/mechanised. 
It is certainly the case that huge numbers of manufacturing jobs have 
been taken off-shore to other countries and are no longer available to 
americans in general and blind americans in particular. Indeed, I have 
heard it argued that there were more jobs for blind people before the 
technology surge of the 1980s. Whether this is the case or not, there 
simply is no justification for saying that the NFB isn't working to 
raise employment among the blind. Look at the employment rates of NFB 
training Center graduates. Unfortunately, there is no simple answer, 
no one answer, no one approach, no one area of focus. Like the parable 
of the man eating an elephant, one bite at a time, so the NFB can only 
take on such a massive social issue in small areas of opposition. And, 
we are making a difference, we are truly making headway, if slowly, if 
in small steps, we are still moving forward. Granted, it may not be as 
fast or as far as you would like but, sadly, this is the nature of 
social change.

Regards,

Heather


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit


Hi Jorge,

I agree with you.  Let's hope a new initiative will come down soon 
from the
NFB to address the issue of unemployment.  I could be wrong, but the 
only
real step toward targeting the issue this past summer dealt with the
Randolph Sheppard Act, certainly a great program but not one into 
which a
lot of people should feel compelled to enter for the sake of being 
employed.
Filing complaints and taking up lawsuits on issues of inaccessible
technology is a roundabout way of making workplaces more accessible
(traveling more feasible?), but does little to change attitudes about 
not
discriminating against blind people in the first place.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing


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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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her%40comcast.net 




From hum4avila_71 at fastmail.fm  Thu Nov  4 03:01:02 2010
From: hum4avila_71 at fastmail.fm (Humberto Avila)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 20:01:02 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] New to this list
Message-ID: <75C2336D1A604D8D99BC76CE4C86C9A2@HumbertoAvila>

Hello, 
 
My name is Humberto and I am new to this list. I am blind although I have a
little bit of vision. I am a high school senior living in Yakima,
Washington. I am planning to go to college, and I want to do something with
Information Technology as my career. so, is this list for college students
only, or can any kind of student join too?
 
sincerely,  Humberto
 
 
 
P.S. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
 

From dandrews at visi.com  Thu Nov  4 03:09:13 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 22:09:13 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New to this list
In-Reply-To: <75C2336D1A604D8D99BC76CE4C86C9A2@HumbertoAvila>
References: <75C2336D1A604D8D99BC76CE4C86C9A2@HumbertoAvila>
Message-ID: <auto-000176322410@mailfront2.g2host.com>

There are people of all ages here on the list.  Most, but not all are 
college students.  Welcome.

Dave

At 10:01 PM 11/3/2010, you wrote:
>Hello,
>
>My name is Humberto and I am new to this list. I am blind although I have a
>little bit of vision. I am a high school senior living in Yakima,
>Washington. I am planning to go to college, and I want to do something with
>Information Technology as my career. so, is this list for college students
>only, or can any kind of student join too?
>
>sincerely,  Humberto
>

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From amylsabo at comcast.net  Thu Nov  4 03:47:13 2010
From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 03:47:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinkeRcbNKGH+UkB=81fHSD-1eCR-k56d-qOS_aP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <535202411.326257.1288842433580.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

hello all,

as to the topic about blackboard well, i have to disagree with the accessibility of the product. i'm taking a class this semester and, all of the quizzes, tests, and notes are all on blackboard. unfortunately, i cannot access it with jfw or in some other method. i have never had this problem with blackboard until now. i have used blackboard in the past for many of my classes and, it has been accessible with jfw for me.

so, those my thoughts on this topic. thanks again and, i will talk to you all soon.


hugs,
from amy

----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Molloy <ptrck.molloy at gmail.com>
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Sent: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 01:03:21 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard

Hello all:
My name is Patrick Molloy and I am a high school senior. As I have
been looking at colleges, I have been told that many colleges use
Blackboard to post assignments. Is Blackboard accessible with JAWS? If
so, how accessible is it?
Thanks,
Patrick Molloy

_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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From jj at bestmidi.com  Thu Nov  4 04:13:19 2010
From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 00:13:19 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Thoughts on the United lawsuit
References: <auto-000022451756@mailback2.g2host.com><0B695E6814694D5BB67F61A682ED89BD@Rufus><DFCE33A0-2C7F-4F42-B481-C720E780DEB8@mac.com><402FEDFD9B3141268B31D8A26820E126@Rufus><6C04317C1D86408C967AB1934E4E11AE@heathersony>
	<35B196EDC0AF46E489AF8A854EAE0934@Rufus>
Message-ID: <94F8D00347A44859828B780D50783128@jage>

> 1. Seek government grant funding to reinstall Jobline.  It was a good
> service for people who've yet to conquer the Internet.

I believe this was hinted at at our state convention last week, and a job 
search feature may be rolled into Newsline. Perhaps someone else has more 
info.



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  4 04:34:03 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 00:34:03 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
References: <535202411.326257.1288842433580.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <9559714B465C46C3BC518AD042C0805F@Ashley>

Amy, what version of blackboard and jaws? That makes a difference. I hope 
you found a work around for the quizzes.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Amy Sabo" <amylsabo at comcast.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard


> hello all,
>
> as to the topic about blackboard well, i have to disagree with the 
> accessibility of the product. i'm taking a class this semester and, all of 
> the quizzes, tests, and notes are all on blackboard. unfortunately, i 
> cannot access it with jfw or in some other method. i have never had this 
> problem with blackboard until now. i have used blackboard in the past for 
> many of my classes and, it has been accessible with jfw for me.
>
> so, those my thoughts on this topic. thanks again and, i will talk to you 
> all soon.
>
>
> hugs,
> from amy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Patrick Molloy <ptrck.molloy at gmail.com>
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 01:03:21 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
>
> Hello all:
> My name is Patrick Molloy and I am a high school senior. As I have
> been looking at colleges, I have been told that many colleges use
> Blackboard to post assignments. Is Blackboard accessible with JAWS? If
> so, how accessible is it?
> Thanks,
> Patrick Molloy
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Thu Nov  4 04:38:12 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 00:38:12 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Please Help Make Foursquare More Accessible
Message-ID: <20101104043812.3643.48398@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>

What is 4-square?

Respectfully,
Jedi


Original message:
> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
> From: Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>

> Hello Everyone,

> I am writing all of you to ask that you help us make Foursquare
> accessible. Please visit
> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
> and add to the comments already posted by letting the developers of
> Foursquare know what you
> need with respect to enhanced VoiceOver accessibility.

> Two of us have posted to the topic so far, but I know there are many
> more blind Foursquare users out here, so I am expecting to see a lot
> more participation.

> Again, please, visit http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9 right now and let your
> voices be heard. There will likely be no forward movement unless we
> speak up.

> Regards,

> Darrell
> http://twitter.com/darrell

> Mika Pyyhkala
> MA State President, National Board Member
> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala

> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.



From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 04:42:07 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 21:42:07 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Please Help Make Foursquare More Accessible
In-Reply-To: <20101104043812.3643.48398@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
References: <20101104043812.3643.48398@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
Message-ID: <4CD2399F.4020907@gmail.com>

Hello,

Foursquare is an iPhone app that enables you to find out what's around 
you, check in and share your locations with friends.

Visit http://foursquare.com to learn more.

Regards,

Darrell



On 11/3/2010 9:38 PM, Jedi wrote:
> What is 4-square?
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
>
> Original message:
>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>> From: Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>
>
>> Hello Everyone,
>
>> I am writing all of you to ask that you help us make Foursquare
>> accessible. Please visit
>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>> and add to the comments already posted by letting the developers of
>> Foursquare know what you
>> need with respect to enhanced VoiceOver accessibility.
>
>> Two of us have posted to the topic so far, but I know there are many
>> more blind Foursquare users out here, so I am expecting to see a lot
>> more participation.
>
>> Again, please, visit http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9 right now and let your
>> voices be heard. There will likely be no forward movement unless we
>> speak up.
>
>> Regards,
>
>> Darrell
>> http://twitter.com/darrell
>
>> Mika Pyyhkala
>> MA State President, National Board Member
>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 06:10:08 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 23:10:08 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Please Help Make Foursquare More Accessible
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimh-eN_a6=oFyb3khnV6QbdUk3oE-fu8EzxkBOd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimh-eN_a6=oFyb3khnV6QbdUk3oE-fu8EzxkBOd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BFFBED61-349A-47CC-A5E2-30D5A15F9185@gmail.com>

I think four square is 100 percent accessible in my book. I use it on a daily basis.
On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Mika Pyyhkala wrote:

> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
> From: Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I am writing all of you to ask that you help us make Foursquare
> accessible. Please visit
> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
> and add to the comments already posted by letting the developers of
> Foursquare know what you
> need with respect to enhanced VoiceOver accessibility.
> 
> Two of us have posted to the topic so far, but I know there are many
> more blind Foursquare users out here, so I am expecting to see a lot
> more participation.
> 
> Again, please, visit http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9 right now and let your
> voices be heard. There will likely be no forward movement unless we
> speak up.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Darrell
> http://twitter.com/darrell
> 
> Mika Pyyhkala
> MA State President, National Board Member
> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com



From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 06:35:37 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Wed, 3 Nov 2010 23:35:37 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Please Help Make Foursquare More Accessible
In-Reply-To: <BFFBED61-349A-47CC-A5E2-30D5A15F9185@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimh-eN_a6=oFyb3khnV6QbdUk3oE-fu8EzxkBOd@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFFBED61-349A-47CC-A5E2-30D5A15F9185@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <701C53E8-7568-43A2-AEC9-B421EFDDB7AF@gmail.com>

Hello,

Sadly, there are a number of areas in Foursquare that are not accessible.

Have you reviewed the suggested link to understand what we are talking about?

If those reported areas are, in fact, accessible, please report how you are making them work.

Regards,

Darrell

On Nov 3, 2010, at 11:10 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:

> I think four square is 100 percent accessible in my book. I use it on a daily basis.
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Mika Pyyhkala wrote:
> 
>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>> From: Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>
>> 
>> Hello Everyone,
>> 
>> I am writing all of you to ask that you help us make Foursquare
>> accessible. Please visit
>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>> and add to the comments already posted by letting the developers of
>> Foursquare know what you
>> need with respect to enhanced VoiceOver accessibility.
>> 
>> Two of us have posted to the topic so far, but I know there are many
>> more blind Foursquare users out here, so I am expecting to see a lot
>> more participation.
>> 
>> Again, please, visit http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9 right now and let your
>> voices be heard. There will likely be no forward movement unless we
>> speak up.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Darrell
>> http://twitter.com/darrell
>> 
>> Mika Pyyhkala
>> MA State President, National Board Member
>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com



From lawnmower84 at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  4 09:55:47 2010
From: lawnmower84 at hotmail.com (Jacob Struiksma )
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:55:47 +0000
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
Message-ID: <COL107-DS100BADB3FB0F9FFEE3A427B54B0@phx.gbl>

Are you you using JAWS 12?


-----Original Message-----
From: Amy Sabo
Sent: 11/4/2010 3:47:13 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
hello all,

as to the topic about blackboard well, i have to disagree with the accessibility of the product. i'm taking a class this semester and, all of the quizzes, tests, and notes are all on blackboard. unfortunately, i cannot access it with jfw or in some other method. i have never had this problem with blackboard until now. i have used blackboard in the past for many of my classes and, it has been accessible with jfw for me.

so, those my thoughts on this topic. thanks again and, i will talk to you all soon.


hugs,
from amy

----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Molloy <ptrck.molloy at gmail.com>
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Sent: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 01:03:21 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard

Hello all:
My name is Patrick Molloy and I am a high school senior. As I have
been looking at colleges, I have been told that many colleges use
Blackboard to post assignments. Is Blackboard accessible with JAWS? If
so, how accessible is it?
Thanks,
Patrick Molloy

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Thu Nov  4 13:13:25 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:13:25 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Please Help Make Foursquare More Accessible
References: <20101104043812.3643.48398@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<4CD2399F.4020907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DDF6F1FFB18F4561B34195B21FE0F8DD@Ashley>

Is this like a GPS? When you say around is it the environment you mean?
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Darrell Shandrow" <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Please Help Make Foursquare More Accessible


> Hello,
>
> Foursquare is an iPhone app that enables you to find out what's around 
> you, check in and share your locations with friends.
>
> Visit http://foursquare.com to learn more.
>
> Regards,
>
> Darrell
>
>
>
> On 11/3/2010 9:38 PM, Jedi wrote:
>> What is 4-square?
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>>
>> Original message:
>>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>>> From: Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>
>>
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>
>>> I am writing all of you to ask that you help us make Foursquare
>>> accessible. Please visit
>>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>>> and add to the comments already posted by letting the developers of
>>> Foursquare know what you
>>> need with respect to enhanced VoiceOver accessibility.
>>
>>> Two of us have posted to the topic so far, but I know there are many
>>> more blind Foursquare users out here, so I am expecting to see a lot
>>> more participation.
>>
>>> Again, please, visit http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9 right now and let your
>>> voices be heard. There will likely be no forward movement unless we
>>> speak up.
>>
>>> Regards,
>>
>>> Darrell
>>> http://twitter.com/darrell
>>
>>> Mika Pyyhkala
>>> MA State President, National Board Member
>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From jj at bestmidi.com  Thu Nov  4 17:24:28 2010
From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 13:24:28 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Please Help Make Foursquare More Accessible
References: <20101104043812.3643.48398@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<4CD2399F.4020907@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FFE1970D0D8F4D6299A32B2237A6F622@jage>

Foursquare is a platform and social networking game. The app for the iPhone 
is merely one part of this service.

J.J> Meddaugh - ATGuys.com
Your Assistive Technology Experts
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Darrell Shandrow" <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Please Help Make Foursquare More Accessible


> Hello,
>
> Foursquare is an iPhone app that enables you to find out what's around 
> you, check in and share your locations with friends.
>
> Visit http://foursquare.com to learn more.
>
> Regards,
>
> Darrell
>
>
>
> On 11/3/2010 9:38 PM, Jedi wrote:
>> What is 4-square?
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>>
>> Original message:
>>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>>> From: Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>
>>
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>
>>> I am writing all of you to ask that you help us make Foursquare
>>> accessible. Please visit
>>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>>> and add to the comments already posted by letting the developers of
>>> Foursquare know what you
>>> need with respect to enhanced VoiceOver accessibility.
>>
>>> Two of us have posted to the topic so far, but I know there are many
>>> more blind Foursquare users out here, so I am expecting to see a lot
>>> more participation.
>>
>>> Again, please, visit http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9 right now and let your
>>> voices be heard. There will likely be no forward movement unless we
>>> speak up.
>>
>>> Regards,
>>
>>> Darrell
>>> http://twitter.com/darrell
>>
>>> Mika Pyyhkala
>>> MA State President, National Board Member
>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com
> 



From liziswhatis at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  4 17:51:19 2010
From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 12:51:19 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
In-Reply-To: <535202411.326257.1288842433580.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
References: <AANLkTinkeRcbNKGH+UkB=81fHSD-1eCR-k56d-qOS_aP@mail.gmail.com>
	<535202411.326257.1288842433580.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS137D550D7F93E1475DA1FBBA4B0@phx.gbl>

Amy,

Which version of Jaws are you using, and which version of Blackboard is it?
If not 9.1, the latest, you may want to illustrate to your school the need
for upgrading. Version 9.1 is completely accessible. My university uses this
version, and I have no problem with it.

Take care, and I hope that helps. Feel free to write off list if you want
with further questions.

Liz

email: 
liziswhatis at hotmail.com 
Visit my LiveJournal: 
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com 
Follow me on Twitter: 
http://twitter.com/lizbot 




From liziswhatis at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  4 17:56:05 2010
From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 12:56:05 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinkeRcbNKGH+UkB=81fHSD-1eCR-k56d-qOS_aP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinkeRcbNKGH+UkB=81fHSD-1eCR-k56d-qOS_aP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS190EA56FCCAD877B4D1CABBA4B0@phx.gbl>

The latest version of Blackboard, 9.1, is fully accessible.

Liz

email: 
liziswhatis at hotmail.com 
Visit my LiveJournal: 
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com 
Follow me on Twitter: 
http://twitter.com/lizbot 





From bpollpeter at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  4 19:49:55 2010
From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 14:49:55 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all blind friends, I need your help
In-Reply-To: <mailman.19.1288890004.11087.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP1463C36E41723763921DCFFC44B0@phx.gbl>

Fellow students,

I have enrolled in a stage makeup class for my spring semester.  The
instructor is strongly discouraging me from taking the class because it
will be too difficult and she does not know how to teach a blind
student.  I took another theatre class with the same instructor in which
they did not believe I could direct a scene as a blind person.  I stood
my ground and directed the scene, which turned out to be one of the
popular scenes in the class.  I wish to stand my ground again.

I already wear makeup on a regular basis, including eyeliner and
eyeshadow, so I know the basics of makeup application.  The concern is
that I will not be able to properly work on shading, and that I will not
know where my starting points are, or that I will be able to create
allusions such as age lines.  At the end of the semester, each student
must "transform" themselves and I will have no point of reference.

It is very difficult to know what will and will not work without being
in the situation, as well as figuring out what tricks can be used.  I
know this is possible, but it would help me if I could have concrete
explaniations of how things can be done.

I am asking for your help.  If anyone has suggestions or advice, please
let me know.  I know this instructor thinks this is more difficult than
perhaps it really is, but she is to sure of her own assumed
understanding of the situation to listen and allow me the opportunity to
discover the alternative methods possible.  Applying makeup is a visual
process, and the concerns are valid, to a point, but I know it can be
done.  Please help me.

Bridgit Pollpeter

Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
Checked by AVG. 
Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 0.0.0/0 - Release Date: <unknown>
12:00 AM
 



From chriswright11 at verizon.net  Thu Nov  4 20:00:19 2010
From: chriswright11 at verizon.net (Christopher Wright)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 16:00:19 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all blind friends, I need your help
References: <BLU0-SMTP1463C36E41723763921DCFFC44B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <59E0E83C892A44F3AA8ECE516E623FFC@DHP4VFK1>

You need a mentor. Here are two resources.

George Ashiotis
gar at nyc.rr.com


Pamela Sabaugh
psabaugh at earthlink.net

These are both blind/visually impaired actors. I met them at an Employment 
and Technology Institute.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bridgit Pollpeter" <bpollpeter at hotmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 3:49 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all blind friends, I need your help


> Fellow students,
>
> I have enrolled in a stage makeup class for my spring semester.  The
> instructor is strongly discouraging me from taking the class because it
> will be too difficult and she does not know how to teach a blind
> student.  I took another theatre class with the same instructor in which
> they did not believe I could direct a scene as a blind person.  I stood
> my ground and directed the scene, which turned out to be one of the
> popular scenes in the class.  I wish to stand my ground again.
>
> I already wear makeup on a regular basis, including eyeliner and
> eyeshadow, so I know the basics of makeup application.  The concern is
> that I will not be able to properly work on shading, and that I will not
> know where my starting points are, or that I will be able to create
> allusions such as age lines.  At the end of the semester, each student
> must "transform" themselves and I will have no point of reference.
>
> It is very difficult to know what will and will not work without being
> in the situation, as well as figuring out what tricks can be used.  I
> know this is possible, but it would help me if I could have concrete
> explaniations of how things can be done.
>
> I am asking for your help.  If anyone has suggestions or advice, please
> let me know.  I know this instructor thinks this is more difficult than
> perhaps it really is, but she is to sure of her own assumed
> understanding of the situation to listen and allow me the opportunity to
> discover the alternative methods possible.  Applying makeup is a visual
> process, and the concerns are valid, to a point, but I know it can be
> done.  Please help me.
>
> Bridgit Pollpeter
>
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 0.0.0/0 - Release Date: <unknown>
> 12:00 AM
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/chriswright11%40verizon.net 



From clb5590 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 20:40:02 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 16:40:02 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions from a parent of a blind child
Message-ID: <AANLkTikMLbN7cYZEqvdtz7TFjvS2fZwuZ3F_Hke5cJqC@mail.gmail.com>

Today, a woman i had briefly met freshman year approached me.
Apparently, now she has a 2 year old who is blind. She seemed really
positive, and wants to meet with me because she has questions. I want
to take advantage of her positive outlook and point her towards the
right information. I know there is a national parents division, but it
is not active in North Carolina. I know that this is a student list,
but I thought someone could connect me with relevant resources and/or
literature, because I am not that familiar with it.

Thanks

-- 
Cindy Bennett
uNC Wilmington Psychology major

clb5590 at gmail.com
828.989.5383


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Thu Nov  4 21:07:33 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 17:07:33 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions from a parent of a blind child
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikMLbN7cYZEqvdtz7TFjvS2fZwuZ3F_Hke5cJqC@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikMLbN7cYZEqvdtz7TFjvS2fZwuZ3F_Hke5cJqC@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <94F6222A-50E7-40E0-A78A-36099CD41A50@mac.com>

Cindy:
Here's the link:

http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Resources1.asp?SnID=1820934880

Jorge




On Nov 4, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Cindy Bennett wrote:

> Today, a woman i had briefly met freshman year approached me.
> Apparently, now she has a 2 year old who is blind. She seemed really
> positive, and wants to meet with me because she has questions. I want
> to take advantage of her positive outlook and point her towards the
> right information. I know there is a national parents division, but it
> is not active in North Carolina. I know that this is a student list,
> but I thought someone could connect me with relevant resources and/or
> literature, because I am not that familiar with it.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> -- 
> Cindy Bennett
> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
> 
> clb5590 at gmail.com
> 828.989.5383
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 22:45:19 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 15:45:19 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Please Help Make Foursquare More Accessible
In-Reply-To: <701C53E8-7568-43A2-AEC9-B421EFDDB7AF@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimh-eN_a6=oFyb3khnV6QbdUk3oE-fu8EzxkBOd@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFFBED61-349A-47CC-A5E2-30D5A15F9185@gmail.com>
	<701C53E8-7568-43A2-AEC9-B421EFDDB7AF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55DE1191-A3E2-44C2-98DF-2120755AF356@gmail.com>

Ok I admit the adding venues is a bit quirky but I do it from the website which is much more straight forward. but I don't use four square to its fullest potential. I will never for instence upload a pic of myself. lol!
On Nov 3, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Darrell Shandrow wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Sadly, there are a number of areas in Foursquare that are not accessible.
> 
> Have you reviewed the suggested link to understand what we are talking about?
> 
> If those reported areas are, in fact, accessible, please report how you are making them work.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Darrell
> 
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 11:10 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> I think four square is 100 percent accessible in my book. I use it on a daily basis.
>> On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Mika Pyyhkala wrote:
>> 
>>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>>> From: Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>
>>> 
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>> 
>>> I am writing all of you to ask that you help us make Foursquare
>>> accessible. Please visit
>>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>>> and add to the comments already posted by letting the developers of
>>> Foursquare know what you
>>> need with respect to enhanced VoiceOver accessibility.
>>> 
>>> Two of us have posted to the topic so far, but I know there are many
>>> more blind Foursquare users out here, so I am expecting to see a lot
>>> more participation.
>>> 
>>> Again, please, visit http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9 right now and let your
>>> voices be heard. There will likely be no forward movement unless we
>>> speak up.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Darrell
>>> http://twitter.com/darrell
>>> 
>>> Mika Pyyhkala
>>> MA State President, National Board Member
>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  4 22:46:22 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 15:46:22 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Please Help Make Foursquare More Accessible
In-Reply-To: <701C53E8-7568-43A2-AEC9-B421EFDDB7AF@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimh-eN_a6=oFyb3khnV6QbdUk3oE-fu8EzxkBOd@mail.gmail.com>
	<BFFBED61-349A-47CC-A5E2-30D5A15F9185@gmail.com>
	<701C53E8-7568-43A2-AEC9-B421EFDDB7AF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <07364DB1-8083-4C66-9BB1-D2C181030ECD@gmail.com>

and I've contacted the team about the refreshing of the location but ehy have not responded to me. It also appears to crash upon relaunch or bringing back from the app switcher. This to me is a bug in voice over and hwat I do id siable and reinable vo and the app is back to normal.

Take care and sorry for the double post. I'm a bit out of it today.
On Nov 3, 2010, at 11:35 PM, Darrell Shandrow wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Sadly, there are a number of areas in Foursquare that are not accessible.
> 
> Have you reviewed the suggested link to understand what we are talking about?
> 
> If those reported areas are, in fact, accessible, please report how you are making them work.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Darrell
> 
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 11:10 PM, Sarah Alawami wrote:
> 
>> I think four square is 100 percent accessible in my book. I use it on a daily basis.
>> On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Mika Pyyhkala wrote:
>> 
>>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>>> From: Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>
>>> 
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>> 
>>> I am writing all of you to ask that you help us make Foursquare
>>> accessible. Please visit
>>> http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9
>>> and add to the comments already posted by letting the developers of
>>> Foursquare know what you
>>> need with respect to enhanced VoiceOver accessibility.
>>> 
>>> Two of us have posted to the topic so far, but I know there are many
>>> more blind Foursquare users out here, so I am expecting to see a lot
>>> more participation.
>>> 
>>> Again, please, visit http://gsfn.us/t/1qdy9 right now and let your
>>> voices be heard. There will likely be no forward movement unless we
>>> speak up.
>>> 
>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Darrell
>>> http://twitter.com/darrell
>>> 
>>> Mika Pyyhkala
>>> MA State President, National Board Member
>>> http://twitter.com/pyyhkala
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com



From treyman19 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 02:47:59 2010
From: treyman19 at gmail.com (Trey Bradley)
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 21:47:59 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Question for you all
Message-ID: <AANLkTikXdPoz4Qsy72-dfrcyrNrd_ygJynyQhopavCab@mail.gmail.com>

Hi My name is Trey Bradley.  I was wondering is there anyone has a
Trecker Mistro, Book sense XT, or a Bluetooth Keyboard that they would
like to get arid of or sell.   I also want to know if there is anyone
on this email list know anything about how to set up a business.  I am
trying to set up my own business and I need some help.  Please email
me at treyman19 at gmail.com or call 219-614-4650 thanks a lot.

-- 
Roosevelt Bradley


From amylsabo at comcast.net  Fri Nov  5 04:15:53 2010
From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 04:15:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
In-Reply-To: <COL107-DS100BADB3FB0F9FFEE3A427B54B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1846241978.381537.1288930553535.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

hello jacob,

no, i'm not using version 12 of jaws i'm using version 10 of jfw. thanks for the advice and, i will talk to you soon.


hugs,
from amy`  

----- Original Message -----
From: Jacob Struiksma <lawnmower84 at hotmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 09:55:47 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard

Are you you using JAWS 12?


-----Original Message-----
From: Amy Sabo
Sent: 11/4/2010 3:47:13 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
hello all,

as to the topic about blackboard well, i have to disagree with the accessibility of the product. i'm taking a class this semester and, all of the quizzes, tests, and notes are all on blackboard. unfortunately, i cannot access it with jfw or in some other method. i have never had this problem with blackboard until now. i have used blackboard in the past for many of my classes and, it has been accessible with jfw for me.

so, those my thoughts on this topic. thanks again and, i will talk to you all soon.


hugs,
from amy

----- Original Message -----
From: Patrick Molloy 
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Sent: Wed, 03 Nov 2010 01:03:21 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard

Hello all:
My name is Patrick Molloy and I am a high school senior. As I have
been looking at colleges, I have been told that many colleges use
Blackboard to post assignments. Is Blackboard accessible with JAWS? If
so, how accessible is it?
Thanks,
Patrick Molloy

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From amylsabo at comcast.net  Fri Nov  5 04:14:03 2010
From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 04:14:03 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-DS137D550D7F93E1475DA1FBBA4B0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1706096618.381467.1288930443380.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

hello liz and all,

i'm using jfw 10 and it's the latest version of blackboard which i believe is version 9.1. but, thanks for the advice and, i will talk to you soon.


hugs,
from amy	

----- Original Message -----
From: Liz Bottner <liziswhatis at hotmail.com>
To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thu, 04 Nov 2010 17:51:19 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] question regarding Blackboard

Amy,

Which version of Jaws are you using, and which version of Blackboard is it?
If not 9.1, the latest, you may want to illustrate to your school the need
for upgrading. Version 9.1 is completely accessible. My university uses this
version, and I have no problem with it.

Take care, and I hope that helps. Feel free to write off list if you want
with further questions.

Liz

email: 
liziswhatis at hotmail.com 
Visit my LiveJournal: 
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com 
Follow me on Twitter: 
http://twitter.com/lizbot 



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From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 05:19:17 2010
From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 01:19:17 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Question for you all
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikXdPoz4Qsy72-dfrcyrNrd_ygJynyQhopavCab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikXdPoz4Qsy72-dfrcyrNrd_ygJynyQhopavCab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5810890DBE9E4D7DA16A0A6A8C5309B9@OwnerPC>

Here is a website that has useful information for starting a business.
http://www.sba.gov/

--------------------------------------------------
From: "Trey Bradley" <treyman19 at gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2010 10:47 PM
To: "nabs-l" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] Question for you all

> Hi My name is Trey Bradley.  I was wondering is there anyone has a
> Trecker Mistro, Book sense XT, or a Bluetooth Keyboard that they would
> like to get arid of or sell.   I also want to know if there is anyone
> on this email list know anything about how to set up a business.  I am
> trying to set up my own business and I need some help.  Please email
> me at treyman19 at gmail.com or call 219-614-4650 thanks a lot.
>
> -- 
> Roosevelt Bradley
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com
> 


From jackson.dezman at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 05:41:33 2010
From: jackson.dezman at gmail.com (Dezman Jackson)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 00:41:33 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New to this list
References: <75C2336D1A604D8D99BC76CE4C86C9A2@HumbertoAvila>
Message-ID: <82AC78DD75A1404691906F98A07854E6@Dezman>

Good to see you on the list Humberto. Welcome.

Dezman

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Humberto Avila" <hum4avila_71 at fastmail.fm>
To: <nabs-L at nfbNet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2010 10:01 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] New to this list


> Hello,
>
> My name is Humberto and I am new to this list. I am blind although I have 
> a
> little bit of vision. I am a high school senior living in Yakima,
> Washington. I am planning to go to college, and I want to do something 
> with
> Information Technology as my career. so, is this list for college students
> only, or can any kind of student join too?
>
> sincerely,  Humberto
>
>
>
> P.S. Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jackson.dezman%40gmail.com
> 



From Barbara.Mathews at sce.com  Fri Nov  5 18:25:11 2010
From: Barbara.Mathews at sce.com (Barbara.Mathews at sce.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 11:25:11 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] questions from a parent of a blind child
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikMLbN7cYZEqvdtz7TFjvS2fZwuZ3F_Hke5cJqC@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikMLbN7cYZEqvdtz7TFjvS2fZwuZ3F_Hke5cJqC@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <OFA223059C.A8D34C99-ON882577D2.0064399B-882577D2.00652EDB@sce.com>

An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://nfbnet.org/pipermail/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/attachments/20101105/d5797831/attachment.htm>

From alexandera.castillo at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 20:18:01 2010
From: alexandera.castillo at gmail.com (Alexander Castillo)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:18:01 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Few questions on Student seminars....
Message-ID: <AANLkTimbF0qS4RjXTDZZap3Ri08rfVas-4_TeEc-fDmU@mail.gmail.com>

Hello All, here in New York, we are thinking of having our first
student seminar in a long time. Before we do so, there are a couple of
questions that some of you might be able to assist us with.

What sort of funding is typically used to put on a seminar? As I
understand things, we are able  to apply for funding from the
Imagination Fund, however, are there additional resources that are
used? Have any of your divisions put together a seminar in which some
participants were sponsored by a  state agency? If so,  what steps did
you take to have these students sponsored?

What does your typical agenda look like? We are looking at three main
points of focus; these would be Technology, education, and other
useful resources.

Like most of your states, New York has students spread throughout the
state: What sort of locations are regularly used to hold your
seminars?

Looking forward to your answers.

Thanks for reading,
Alex


From clb5590 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 21:51:34 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:51:34 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Few questions on Student seminars....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimbF0qS4RjXTDZZap3Ri08rfVas-4_TeEc-fDmU@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimbF0qS4RjXTDZZap3Ri08rfVas-4_TeEc-fDmU@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimvmwTeBLP11p4s0FbEc4LDwBztA_O1buceM_XJ@mail.gmail.com>

We hold our seminar in Raleigh. This is a central city that is easy to
get to from the whole state, and most of our leaders in NABS live
there. But I do think that if you start having one every year, moving
it around wouldn't be such a bad idea.

We try to charge as little as possible for students to come, so that
way more can come, and they can spend other money on transportation.
We colaborate with the local DSB offices, that is division of services
for the blind, not sure what it's called in New York, and some of them
are willing to bring vans of students to the seminar so that
eliminates the transportation costs. That being said, we have not done
an overnight seminar, so we have never had to think about hotel costs
and more than one meal.

The money we use to run the seminar comes from a yearly fund raiser
that we do. We work with a vendor who graciously donates snacks to us
and make snack packs for our state convention. They are a hit. Some
other popular fund raisers are the Belk days cards. Basically, they
give organizations $5 off gift cards, and the organization charges $5
for them. So people are giving $5 to the organization instead of Belk,
and then they go to Belk on the designated Saturday and get $5 off.
This is most effective if you sell them near the store on that day.
One thing my local chapter did was get a local Apple Bee's to do a
pancake breakfast for $2 a person. The chapter then sold tickets for
$7, and a lot of people heading into work saw the sign and stopped in
for breakfast. At school, psi chi has done a couple of fund raisers
with restaurants such as Moe's and Buffalo Wild Wings in which you
tell people to place their receipts in a bucket by the register and a
portion of the profit from each receipt in the bucket at the end of
the day goes to the organization. This can be a bit tricky, because it
means you have to get people to go out to eat, and sometimes the
restaurants aren't very supportive of you going to the restaurant and
telling strangers to support you, because it means more money that
they are giving the organization. To me, the best fund raisers involve
projects that the division does not have to spend a lot of initial
money on, but I know this can sometimes be difficult.

I know Wall-Mart has a grant for nonprofits, and I know a couple of
local chapters in North Carolina have received it to put on various
events, but I don't have any personal experience with it.

A key thing would be to try to get as many presenters to come for free
as you can, or to get NFB members with various expertises to present.

Good luck!

Cindy

On 11/5/10, Alexander Castillo <alexandera.castillo at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello All, here in New York, we are thinking of having our first
> student seminar in a long time. Before we do so, there are a couple of
> questions that some of you might be able to assist us with.
>
> What sort of funding is typically used to put on a seminar? As I
> understand things, we are able  to apply for funding from the
> Imagination Fund, however, are there additional resources that are
> used? Have any of your divisions put together a seminar in which some
> participants were sponsored by a  state agency? If so,  what steps did
> you take to have these students sponsored?
>
> What does your typical agenda look like? We are looking at three main
> points of focus; these would be Technology, education, and other
> useful resources.
>
> Like most of your states, New York has students spread throughout the
> state: What sort of locations are regularly used to hold your
> seminars?
>
> Looking forward to your answers.
>
> Thanks for reading,
> Alex
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Cindy Bennett
uNC Wilmington Psychology major

clb5590 at gmail.com
828.989.5383


From clb5590 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  5 21:53:38 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:53:38 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] questions from a parent of a blind child
In-Reply-To: <OFA223059C.A8D34C99-ON882577D2.0064399B-882577D2.00652EDB@sce.com>
References: <AANLkTikMLbN7cYZEqvdtz7TFjvS2fZwuZ3F_Hke5cJqC@mail.gmail.com>
	<OFA223059C.A8D34C99-ON882577D2.0064399B-882577D2.00652EDB@sce.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Sn1589WWcSEyFOBKof0_-dKUsNFB3ttpOra+J@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the contact info, but that is old since the division has
since fallen apart, but I am waiting to hear back from this mom. I
will definitely point her towards the national parent's division.

Cindy

On 11/5/10, Barbara.Mathews at sce.com <Barbara.Mathews at sce.com> wrote:
>         There is a parent contact listed on the NOPBC website.  It is
>
> Kris Shields, President
> North Carolina Parents of Blind Children
> Charlotte, NC
> Phone: (704) 733-0605
> E-mail: kshields at carolina.rr.com
>
>
>         I hope you will refer this mom to Kris, and that you will also meet
> with the mom.  It is so helpful to parents to meet blind adults who can
> serve as role models and mentors!  You can also give her the NOPBC website
> (www.nfb.org/nopbc), which is a starting place for finding resources.
>
>
>
>
> From:        Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com>
> To:        National Asociation of Blind Students <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date:        11/04/2010 02:21 PM
> Subject:        [nabs-l] questions from a parent of a blind child
> Sent by:        nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> ________________________________
>
>
>
> Today, a woman i had briefly met freshman year approached me.
> Apparently, now she has a 2 year old who is blind. She seemed really
> positive, and wants to meet with me because she has questions. I want
> to take advantage of her positive outlook and point her towards the
> right information. I know there is a national parents division, but it
> is not active in North Carolina. I know that this is a student list,
> but I thought someone could connect me with relevant resources and/or
> literature, because I am not that familiar with it.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Cindy Bennett
> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>
> clb5590 at gmail.com
> 828.989.5383
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/barbara.mathews%40sce.com
>
>


-- 
Cindy Bennett
uNC Wilmington Psychology major

clb5590 at gmail.com
828.989.5383


From bschuler45 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 01:05:47 2010
From: bschuler45 at gmail.com (Ben Schuler)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:05:47 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com>

Hey Everyone,

My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the new
Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
touch screen. 

>From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be just
as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these apps?
How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are able
to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a little
longer?

Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does anyone
know if there is one out there?

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Ben Schuler
bschuler45 at gmail.com






From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 01:18:23 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 18:18:23 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Few questions on Student seminars....
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimvmwTeBLP11p4s0FbEc4LDwBztA_O1buceM_XJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimbF0qS4RjXTDZZap3Ri08rfVas-4_TeEc-fDmU@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimvmwTeBLP11p4s0FbEc4LDwBztA_O1buceM_XJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinmKG=NPz6wL49OTehPOKyZu1gPCf70KNVKwVoN@mail.gmail.com>

In california, we have had  our seminars in both northern  and
southern california.  The  Student division has had set-up shop in
locations such as  our state school for the blind and a  religious
college campus.  if you have a larger and well-known college in a
larger city (San Francisco  and San Francisco State, or Berkley and
University of California  at Berkley, in the case of california), you
will find that not only could students who live a distance away find
it easier to  access the location by a form of  mass-transit, but, you
might even have a pretty good amount of students on campus who   could
 pretty much walk out of their dorms and into the seminar.
 Getting speakers in the local community/colllege administrators and
Federationests who all have unique stories to share that would benifit
the population you would idealy have  might be a cost-effective and
community building option for  the student division.

On 11/5/10, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
> We hold our seminar in Raleigh. This is a central city that is easy to
> get to from the whole state, and most of our leaders in NABS live
> there. But I do think that if you start having one every year, moving
> it around wouldn't be such a bad idea.
>
> We try to charge as little as possible for students to come, so that
> way more can come, and they can spend other money on transportation.
> We colaborate with the local DSB offices, that is division of services
> for the blind, not sure what it's called in New York, and some of them
> are willing to bring vans of students to the seminar so that
> eliminates the transportation costs. That being said, we have not done
> an overnight seminar, so we have never had to think about hotel costs
> and more than one meal.
>
> The money we use to run the seminar comes from a yearly fund raiser
> that we do. We work with a vendor who graciously donates snacks to us
> and make snack packs for our state convention. They are a hit. Some
> other popular fund raisers are the Belk days cards. Basically, they
> give organizations $5 off gift cards, and the organization charges $5
> for them. So people are giving $5 to the organization instead of Belk,
> and then they go to Belk on the designated Saturday and get $5 off.
> This is most effective if you sell them near the store on that day.
> One thing my local chapter did was get a local Apple Bee's to do a
> pancake breakfast for $2 a person. The chapter then sold tickets for
> $7, and a lot of people heading into work saw the sign and stopped in
> for breakfast. At school, psi chi has done a couple of fund raisers
> with restaurants such as Moe's and Buffalo Wild Wings in which you
> tell people to place their receipts in a bucket by the register and a
> portion of the profit from each receipt in the bucket at the end of
> the day goes to the organization. This can be a bit tricky, because it
> means you have to get people to go out to eat, and sometimes the
> restaurants aren't very supportive of you going to the restaurant and
> telling strangers to support you, because it means more money that
> they are giving the organization. To me, the best fund raisers involve
> projects that the division does not have to spend a lot of initial
> money on, but I know this can sometimes be difficult.
>
> I know Wall-Mart has a grant for nonprofits, and I know a couple of
> local chapters in North Carolina have received it to put on various
> events, but I don't have any personal experience with it.
>
> A key thing would be to try to get as many presenters to come for free
> as you can, or to get NFB members with various expertises to present.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Cindy
>
> On 11/5/10, Alexander Castillo <alexandera.castillo at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello All, here in New York, we are thinking of having our first
>> student seminar in a long time. Before we do so, there are a couple of
>> questions that some of you might be able to assist us with.
>>
>> What sort of funding is typically used to put on a seminar? As I
>> understand things, we are able  to apply for funding from the
>> Imagination Fund, however, are there additional resources that are
>> used? Have any of your divisions put together a seminar in which some
>> participants were sponsored by a  state agency? If so,  what steps did
>> you take to have these students sponsored?
>>
>> What does your typical agenda look like? We are looking at three main
>> points of focus; these would be Technology, education, and other
>> useful resources.
>>
>> Like most of your states, New York has students spread throughout the
>> state: What sort of locations are regularly used to hold your
>> seminars?
>>
>> Looking forward to your answers.
>>
>> Thanks for reading,
>> Alex
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Cindy Bennett
> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>
> clb5590 at gmail.com
> 828.989.5383
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 01:20:32 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:20:32 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com>
Message-ID: <81AE66D0F5AF4F819EE3E0A5E3A9C404@D9P3ZND1>

Hi Ben,
I can't say enough good things about the iPhone. It does have a bit of a 
learning curve, but nothing that a week or so can't cure. The majority of 
the apps I've installed are fully accessible with voiceover. I've used a few 
of the free recognition apps, and I've had success identifying labels, 
dollar bills and even print pages.
www.blindcooltech.com
has many iPhone podcasts. If you can stop in an Apple or AT&T store to get 
some hands-on experience with the phone before making a purchase you might 
not feel as intimidated by the phone. The Apple reps I've spoken with are 
very familiar with Voiceover.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
Anjelina
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
Albert Einstein
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ben Schuler" <bschuler45 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 9:05 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users


> Hey Everyone,
>
> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the 
> new
> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
> touch screen.
>
>>From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be 
>>just
> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these apps?
> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are able
> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a 
> little
> longer?
>
> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does 
> anyone
> know if there is one out there?
>
> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>
> Ben Schuler
> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 02:16:52 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 19:16:52 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com>
Message-ID: <4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com>

Hello Ben,

Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If 
you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a visit 
to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.

As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that 
approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident, 
however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other attributes 
far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which the 
K-NFB Reader is based.

There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. One 
is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the 
camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to 
identify objects.

You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of these 
two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the iPhone.

If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing 
one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.

Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn 
about the apps that are accessible.

Regards,

Darrell






On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
> Hey Everyone,
>
> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the new
> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
> touch screen.
>
>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be just
> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these apps?
> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are able
> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a little
> longer?
>
> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does anyone
> know if there is one out there?
>
> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>
> Ben Schuler
> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com


From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Sat Nov  6 04:51:59 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini)
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:51:59 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Octave
Message-ID: <8C75CB419FAD4F10B7BE48268F8EB2CD@stanford.edu>

If anyone uses Octave, can he/she please email me off list?

Thanks in advance,
Nicole

From hernandezlegorreta at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 20:58:50 2010
From: hernandezlegorreta at gmail.com (Conchita Hernandez Legorreta)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 15:58:50 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all Cell phone users
Message-ID: <AANLkTik=KZF-0uzs-UVnbHVBaj-LH32j3ZHfUpMysr7H@mail.gmail.com>

Nicole,
I have an iphone and I love it. Even thought the touch screen may seem
to be intimidating it is not once you get a hang of it. I have found
that the voice over is great on most apps and you have quite a bit of
control over the settings that you use. It does not interfere with
other apps that you may be using and you can turn it on and off esily
with a button. The thing that can be annoying at first is that you
must double tap the letters in order to type, but there is also an app
called Dragon Dictation that is free where you can speak whatever you
want to type and it will put in in text form very accuretly. Then you
can put the text into a text message, facebook or other application. I
have found it vey helpful, and the voiceover works perfectly with it.
If you have any other questions feel free to contact me off list. But
like it was mentioned beforehand, the best thing to do is play with it
for a while to get used to it.
Conchita

On 11/6/10, nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org <nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org> wrote:
> Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to
> 	nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: questions from a parent of a blind child
>       (Barbara.Mathews at sce.com)
>    2. Few questions on Student seminars.... (Alexander Castillo)
>    3. Re: Few questions on Student seminars.... (Cindy Bennett)
>    4. Re: questions from a parent of a blind child (Cindy Bennett)
>    5. Calling all iPhone users (Ben Schuler)
>    6. Re: Few questions on Student seminars.... (Darian Smith)
>    7. Re: Calling all iPhone users (Anjelina)
>    8. Re: Calling all iPhone users (Darrell Shandrow)
>    9. Octave (Nicole B. Torcolini)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 11:25:11 -0700
> From: Barbara.Mathews at sce.com
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] questions from a parent of a blind child
> Message-ID:
> 	<OFA223059C.A8D34C99-ON882577D2.0064399B-882577D2.00652EDB at sce.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/attachments/20101105/d5797831/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:18:01 -0400
> From: Alexander Castillo <alexandera.castillo at gmail.com>
> To: nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org, nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] Few questions on Student seminars....
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTimbF0qS4RjXTDZZap3Ri08rfVas-4_TeEc-fDmU at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hello All, here in New York, we are thinking of having our first
> student seminar in a long time. Before we do so, there are a couple of
> questions that some of you might be able to assist us with.
>
> What sort of funding is typically used to put on a seminar? As I
> understand things, we are able  to apply for funding from the
> Imagination Fund, however, are there additional resources that are
> used? Have any of your divisions put together a seminar in which some
> participants were sponsored by a  state agency? If so,  what steps did
> you take to have these students sponsored?
>
> What does your typical agenda look like? We are looking at three main
> points of focus; these would be Technology, education, and other
> useful resources.
>
> Like most of your states, New York has students spread throughout the
> state: What sort of locations are regularly used to hold your
> seminars?
>
> Looking forward to your answers.
>
> Thanks for reading,
> Alex
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:51:34 -0400
> From: Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Few questions on Student seminars....
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTimvmwTeBLP11p4s0FbEc4LDwBztA_O1buceM_XJ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> We hold our seminar in Raleigh. This is a central city that is easy to
> get to from the whole state, and most of our leaders in NABS live
> there. But I do think that if you start having one every year, moving
> it around wouldn't be such a bad idea.
>
> We try to charge as little as possible for students to come, so that
> way more can come, and they can spend other money on transportation.
> We colaborate with the local DSB offices, that is division of services
> for the blind, not sure what it's called in New York, and some of them
> are willing to bring vans of students to the seminar so that
> eliminates the transportation costs. That being said, we have not done
> an overnight seminar, so we have never had to think about hotel costs
> and more than one meal.
>
> The money we use to run the seminar comes from a yearly fund raiser
> that we do. We work with a vendor who graciously donates snacks to us
> and make snack packs for our state convention. They are a hit. Some
> other popular fund raisers are the Belk days cards. Basically, they
> give organizations $5 off gift cards, and the organization charges $5
> for them. So people are giving $5 to the organization instead of Belk,
> and then they go to Belk on the designated Saturday and get $5 off.
> This is most effective if you sell them near the store on that day.
> One thing my local chapter did was get a local Apple Bee's to do a
> pancake breakfast for $2 a person. The chapter then sold tickets for
> $7, and a lot of people heading into work saw the sign and stopped in
> for breakfast. At school, psi chi has done a couple of fund raisers
> with restaurants such as Moe's and Buffalo Wild Wings in which you
> tell people to place their receipts in a bucket by the register and a
> portion of the profit from each receipt in the bucket at the end of
> the day goes to the organization. This can be a bit tricky, because it
> means you have to get people to go out to eat, and sometimes the
> restaurants aren't very supportive of you going to the restaurant and
> telling strangers to support you, because it means more money that
> they are giving the organization. To me, the best fund raisers involve
> projects that the division does not have to spend a lot of initial
> money on, but I know this can sometimes be difficult.
>
> I know Wall-Mart has a grant for nonprofits, and I know a couple of
> local chapters in North Carolina have received it to put on various
> events, but I don't have any personal experience with it.
>
> A key thing would be to try to get as many presenters to come for free
> as you can, or to get NFB members with various expertises to present.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Cindy
>
> On 11/5/10, Alexander Castillo <alexandera.castillo at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello All, here in New York, we are thinking of having our first
>> student seminar in a long time. Before we do so, there are a couple of
>> questions that some of you might be able to assist us with.
>>
>> What sort of funding is typically used to put on a seminar? As I
>> understand things, we are able  to apply for funding from the
>> Imagination Fund, however, are there additional resources that are
>> used? Have any of your divisions put together a seminar in which some
>> participants were sponsored by a  state agency? If so,  what steps did
>> you take to have these students sponsored?
>>
>> What does your typical agenda look like? We are looking at three main
>> points of focus; these would be Technology, education, and other
>> useful resources.
>>
>> Like most of your states, New York has students spread throughout the
>> state: What sort of locations are regularly used to hold your
>> seminars?
>>
>> Looking forward to your answers.
>>
>> Thanks for reading,
>> Alex
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Cindy Bennett
> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>
> clb5590 at gmail.com
> 828.989.5383
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:53:38 -0400
> From: Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] questions from a parent of a blind child
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTi=Sn1589WWcSEyFOBKof0_-dKUsNFB3ttpOra+J at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Thanks for the contact info, but that is old since the division has
> since fallen apart, but I am waiting to hear back from this mom. I
> will definitely point her towards the national parent's division.
>
> Cindy
>
> On 11/5/10, Barbara.Mathews at sce.com <Barbara.Mathews at sce.com> wrote:
>> ? ? ? ? There is a parent contact listed on the NOPBC website. ?It is
>>
>> Kris Shields, President
>> North Carolina Parents of Blind Children
>> Charlotte, NC
>> Phone: (704) 733-0605
>> E-mail: kshields at carolina.rr.com
>>
>>
>> ? ? ? ? I hope you will refer this mom to Kris, and that you will also
>> meet
>> with the mom. ?It is so helpful to parents to meet blind adults who can
>> serve as role models and mentors! ?You can also give her the NOPBC website
>> (www.nfb.org/nopbc), which is a starting place for finding resources.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: ? ? ? ?Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com>
>> To: ? ? ? ?National Asociation of Blind Students <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Date: ? ? ? ?11/04/2010 02:21 PM
>> Subject: ? ? ? ?[nabs-l] questions from a parent of a blind child
>> Sent by: ? ? ? ?nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> ________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> Today, a woman i had briefly met freshman year approached me.
>> Apparently, now she has a 2 year old who is blind. She seemed really
>> positive, and wants to meet with me because she has questions. I want
>> to take advantage of her positive outlook and point her towards the
>> right information. I know there is a national parents division, but it
>> is not active in North Carolina. I know that this is a student list,
>> but I thought someone could connect me with relevant resources and/or
>> literature, because I am not that familiar with it.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> --
>> Cindy Bennett
>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>>
>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>> 828.989.5383
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/barbara.mathews%40sce.com
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Cindy Bennett
> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>
> clb5590 at gmail.com
> 828.989.5383
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:05:47 -0400
> From: "Ben Schuler" <bschuler45 at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
> Message-ID: <000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hey Everyone,
>
> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the new
> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
> touch screen.
>
> >From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be just
> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these apps?
> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are able
> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a little
> longer?
>
> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does anyone
> know if there is one out there?
>
> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>
> Ben Schuler
> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 18:18:23 -0700
> From: Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Few questions on Student seminars....
> Message-ID:
> 	<AANLkTinmKG=NPz6wL49OTehPOKyZu1gPCf70KNVKwVoN at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>
> In california, we have had  our seminars in both northern  and
> southern california.  The  Student division has had set-up shop in
> locations such as  our state school for the blind and a  religious
> college campus.  if you have a larger and well-known college in a
> larger city (San Francisco  and San Francisco State, or Berkley and
> University of California  at Berkley, in the case of california), you
> will find that not only could students who live a distance away find
> it easier to  access the location by a form of  mass-transit, but, you
> might even have a pretty good amount of students on campus who   could
>  pretty much walk out of their dorms and into the seminar.
>  Getting speakers in the local community/colllege administrators and
> Federationests who all have unique stories to share that would benifit
> the population you would idealy have  might be a cost-effective and
> community building option for  the student division.
>
> On 11/5/10, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> We hold our seminar in Raleigh. This is a central city that is easy to
>> get to from the whole state, and most of our leaders in NABS live
>> there. But I do think that if you start having one every year, moving
>> it around wouldn't be such a bad idea.
>>
>> We try to charge as little as possible for students to come, so that
>> way more can come, and they can spend other money on transportation.
>> We colaborate with the local DSB offices, that is division of services
>> for the blind, not sure what it's called in New York, and some of them
>> are willing to bring vans of students to the seminar so that
>> eliminates the transportation costs. That being said, we have not done
>> an overnight seminar, so we have never had to think about hotel costs
>> and more than one meal.
>>
>> The money we use to run the seminar comes from a yearly fund raiser
>> that we do. We work with a vendor who graciously donates snacks to us
>> and make snack packs for our state convention. They are a hit. Some
>> other popular fund raisers are the Belk days cards. Basically, they
>> give organizations $5 off gift cards, and the organization charges $5
>> for them. So people are giving $5 to the organization instead of Belk,
>> and then they go to Belk on the designated Saturday and get $5 off.
>> This is most effective if you sell them near the store on that day.
>> One thing my local chapter did was get a local Apple Bee's to do a
>> pancake breakfast for $2 a person. The chapter then sold tickets for
>> $7, and a lot of people heading into work saw the sign and stopped in
>> for breakfast. At school, psi chi has done a couple of fund raisers
>> with restaurants such as Moe's and Buffalo Wild Wings in which you
>> tell people to place their receipts in a bucket by the register and a
>> portion of the profit from each receipt in the bucket at the end of
>> the day goes to the organization. This can be a bit tricky, because it
>> means you have to get people to go out to eat, and sometimes the
>> restaurants aren't very supportive of you going to the restaurant and
>> telling strangers to support you, because it means more money that
>> they are giving the organization. To me, the best fund raisers involve
>> projects that the division does not have to spend a lot of initial
>> money on, but I know this can sometimes be difficult.
>>
>> I know Wall-Mart has a grant for nonprofits, and I know a couple of
>> local chapters in North Carolina have received it to put on various
>> events, but I don't have any personal experience with it.
>>
>> A key thing would be to try to get as many presenters to come for free
>> as you can, or to get NFB members with various expertises to present.
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On 11/5/10, Alexander Castillo <alexandera.castillo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello All, here in New York, we are thinking of having our first
>>> student seminar in a long time. Before we do so, there are a couple of
>>> questions that some of you might be able to assist us with.
>>>
>>> What sort of funding is typically used to put on a seminar? As I
>>> understand things, we are able  to apply for funding from the
>>> Imagination Fund, however, are there additional resources that are
>>> used? Have any of your divisions put together a seminar in which some
>>> participants were sponsored by a  state agency? If so,  what steps did
>>> you take to have these students sponsored?
>>>
>>> What does your typical agenda look like? We are looking at three main
>>> points of focus; these would be Technology, education, and other
>>> useful resources.
>>>
>>> Like most of your states, New York has students spread throughout the
>>> state: What sort of locations are regularly used to hold your
>>> seminars?
>>>
>>> Looking forward to your answers.
>>>
>>> Thanks for reading,
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cindy Bennett
>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>>
>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>> 828.989.5383
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> Darian Smith
> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>
>
> ?We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
> spiritual beings having a human experience.? - Teilhard de Chardin
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:20:32 -0400
> From: "Anjelina" <anjelinac26 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
> Message-ID: <81AE66D0F5AF4F819EE3E0A5E3A9C404 at D9P3ZND1>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
> 	reply-type=original
>
> Hi Ben,
> I can't say enough good things about the iPhone. It does have a bit of a
> learning curve, but nothing that a week or so can't cure. The majority of
> the apps I've installed are fully accessible with voiceover. I've used a few
> of the free recognition apps, and I've had success identifying labels,
> dollar bills and even print pages.
> www.blindcooltech.com
> has many iPhone podcasts. If you can stop in an Apple or AT&T store to get
> some hands-on experience with the phone before making a purchase you might
> not feel as intimidated by the phone. The Apple reps I've spoken with are
> very familiar with Voiceover.
> Good luck with whatever you choose.
> Anjelina
> Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
> Albert Einstein
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ben Schuler" <bschuler45 at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 9:05 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>
>
>> Hey Everyone,
>>
>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the
>> new
>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
>> touch screen.
>>
>>>From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be
>>>just
>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these apps?
>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are able
>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>> little
>> longer?
>>
>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>> anyone
>> know if there is one out there?
>>
>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Ben Schuler
>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 19:16:52 -0700
> From: Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
> Message-ID: <4CD4BA94.8050003 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Hello Ben,
>
> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a visit
> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>
> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other attributes
> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which the
> K-NFB Reader is based.
>
> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. One
> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
> identify objects.
>
> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of these
> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the iPhone.
>
> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>
> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
> about the apps that are accessible.
>
> Regards,
>
> Darrell
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>> Hey Everyone,
>>
>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the
>> new
>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
>> touch screen.
>>
>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be
>>> just
>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these apps?
>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are able
>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>> little
>> longer?
>>
>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>> anyone
>> know if there is one out there?
>>
>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Ben Schuler
>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Nicole
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>
>


-- (Conchita)_______________________________________
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds
Albert Einstein


From treyman19 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 21:33:41 2010
From: treyman19 at gmail.com (Trey Bradley)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 16:33:41 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all Cell phone users
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik=KZF-0uzs-UVnbHVBaj-LH32j3ZHfUpMysr7H@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTik=KZF-0uzs-UVnbHVBaj-LH32j3ZHfUpMysr7H@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikdgDsrhrY_U9Bd33pLSAJmJAxdwhbKPEM5Ac-g@mail.gmail.com>

Hi my name is Roosevelt Bradley.  I was wondering is there anybody
that wants to sell there Iphone?  Please let me know by emailing or
calling me.  email treyman19 at gmail.com or call 219-614-4650 thanks a
lot.

On 11/6/10, Conchita Hernandez Legorreta <hernandezlegorreta at gmail.com> wrote:
> Nicole,
> I have an iphone and I love it. Even thought the touch screen may seem
> to be intimidating it is not once you get a hang of it. I have found
> that the voice over is great on most apps and you have quite a bit of
> control over the settings that you use. It does not interfere with
> other apps that you may be using and you can turn it on and off esily
> with a button. The thing that can be annoying at first is that you
> must double tap the letters in order to type, but there is also an app
> called Dragon Dictation that is free where you can speak whatever you
> want to type and it will put in in text form very accuretly. Then you
> can put the text into a text message, facebook or other application. I
> have found it vey helpful, and the voiceover works perfectly with it.
> If you have any other questions feel free to contact me off list. But
> like it was mentioned beforehand, the best thing to do is play with it
> for a while to get used to it.
> Conchita
>
> On 11/6/10, nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org <nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org> wrote:
>> Send nabs-l mailing list submissions to
>> 	nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>
>> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>> 	http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>> 	nabs-l-request at nfbnet.org
>>
>> You can reach the person managing the list at
>> 	nabs-l-owner at nfbnet.org
>>
>> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
>> than "Re: Contents of nabs-l digest..."
>>
>>
>> Today's Topics:
>>
>>    1. Re: questions from a parent of a blind child
>>       (Barbara.Mathews at sce.com)
>>    2. Few questions on Student seminars.... (Alexander Castillo)
>>    3. Re: Few questions on Student seminars.... (Cindy Bennett)
>>    4. Re: questions from a parent of a blind child (Cindy Bennett)
>>    5. Calling all iPhone users (Ben Schuler)
>>    6. Re: Few questions on Student seminars.... (Darian Smith)
>>    7. Re: Calling all iPhone users (Anjelina)
>>    8. Re: Calling all iPhone users (Darrell Shandrow)
>>    9. Octave (Nicole B. Torcolini)
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 11:25:11 -0700
>> From: Barbara.Mathews at sce.com
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] questions from a parent of a blind child
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<OFA223059C.A8D34C99-ON882577D2.0064399B-882577D2.00652EDB at sce.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://www.nfbnet.org/pipermail/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/attachments/20101105/d5797831/attachment-0001.html>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 16:18:01 -0400
>> From: Alexander Castillo <alexandera.castillo at gmail.com>
>> To: nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org, nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Few questions on Student seminars....
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<AANLkTimbF0qS4RjXTDZZap3Ri08rfVas-4_TeEc-fDmU at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Hello All, here in New York, we are thinking of having our first
>> student seminar in a long time. Before we do so, there are a couple of
>> questions that some of you might be able to assist us with.
>>
>> What sort of funding is typically used to put on a seminar? As I
>> understand things, we are able  to apply for funding from the
>> Imagination Fund, however, are there additional resources that are
>> used? Have any of your divisions put together a seminar in which some
>> participants were sponsored by a  state agency? If so,  what steps did
>> you take to have these students sponsored?
>>
>> What does your typical agenda look like? We are looking at three main
>> points of focus; these would be Technology, education, and other
>> useful resources.
>>
>> Like most of your states, New York has students spread throughout the
>> state: What sort of locations are regularly used to hold your
>> seminars?
>>
>> Looking forward to your answers.
>>
>> Thanks for reading,
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:51:34 -0400
>> From: Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com>
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Few questions on Student seminars....
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<AANLkTimvmwTeBLP11p4s0FbEc4LDwBztA_O1buceM_XJ at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> We hold our seminar in Raleigh. This is a central city that is easy to
>> get to from the whole state, and most of our leaders in NABS live
>> there. But I do think that if you start having one every year, moving
>> it around wouldn't be such a bad idea.
>>
>> We try to charge as little as possible for students to come, so that
>> way more can come, and they can spend other money on transportation.
>> We colaborate with the local DSB offices, that is division of services
>> for the blind, not sure what it's called in New York, and some of them
>> are willing to bring vans of students to the seminar so that
>> eliminates the transportation costs. That being said, we have not done
>> an overnight seminar, so we have never had to think about hotel costs
>> and more than one meal.
>>
>> The money we use to run the seminar comes from a yearly fund raiser
>> that we do. We work with a vendor who graciously donates snacks to us
>> and make snack packs for our state convention. They are a hit. Some
>> other popular fund raisers are the Belk days cards. Basically, they
>> give organizations $5 off gift cards, and the organization charges $5
>> for them. So people are giving $5 to the organization instead of Belk,
>> and then they go to Belk on the designated Saturday and get $5 off.
>> This is most effective if you sell them near the store on that day.
>> One thing my local chapter did was get a local Apple Bee's to do a
>> pancake breakfast for $2 a person. The chapter then sold tickets for
>> $7, and a lot of people heading into work saw the sign and stopped in
>> for breakfast. At school, psi chi has done a couple of fund raisers
>> with restaurants such as Moe's and Buffalo Wild Wings in which you
>> tell people to place their receipts in a bucket by the register and a
>> portion of the profit from each receipt in the bucket at the end of
>> the day goes to the organization. This can be a bit tricky, because it
>> means you have to get people to go out to eat, and sometimes the
>> restaurants aren't very supportive of you going to the restaurant and
>> telling strangers to support you, because it means more money that
>> they are giving the organization. To me, the best fund raisers involve
>> projects that the division does not have to spend a lot of initial
>> money on, but I know this can sometimes be difficult.
>>
>> I know Wall-Mart has a grant for nonprofits, and I know a couple of
>> local chapters in North Carolina have received it to put on various
>> events, but I don't have any personal experience with it.
>>
>> A key thing would be to try to get as many presenters to come for free
>> as you can, or to get NFB members with various expertises to present.
>>
>> Good luck!
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On 11/5/10, Alexander Castillo <alexandera.castillo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello All, here in New York, we are thinking of having our first
>>> student seminar in a long time. Before we do so, there are a couple of
>>> questions that some of you might be able to assist us with.
>>>
>>> What sort of funding is typically used to put on a seminar? As I
>>> understand things, we are able  to apply for funding from the
>>> Imagination Fund, however, are there additional resources that are
>>> used? Have any of your divisions put together a seminar in which some
>>> participants were sponsored by a  state agency? If so,  what steps did
>>> you take to have these students sponsored?
>>>
>>> What does your typical agenda look like? We are looking at three main
>>> points of focus; these would be Technology, education, and other
>>> useful resources.
>>>
>>> Like most of your states, New York has students spread throughout the
>>> state: What sort of locations are regularly used to hold your
>>> seminars?
>>>
>>> Looking forward to your answers.
>>>
>>> Thanks for reading,
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cindy Bennett
>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>>
>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>> 828.989.5383
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 17:53:38 -0400
>> From: Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com>
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] questions from a parent of a blind child
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<AANLkTi=Sn1589WWcSEyFOBKof0_-dKUsNFB3ttpOra+J at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>>
>> Thanks for the contact info, but that is old since the division has
>> since fallen apart, but I am waiting to hear back from this mom. I
>> will definitely point her towards the national parent's division.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On 11/5/10, Barbara.Mathews at sce.com <Barbara.Mathews at sce.com> wrote:
>>> ? ? ? ? There is a parent contact listed on the NOPBC website. ?It is
>>>
>>> Kris Shields, President
>>> North Carolina Parents of Blind Children
>>> Charlotte, NC
>>> Phone: (704) 733-0605
>>> E-mail: kshields at carolina.rr.com
>>>
>>>
>>> ? ? ? ? I hope you will refer this mom to Kris, and that you will also
>>> meet
>>> with the mom. ?It is so helpful to parents to meet blind adults who can
>>> serve as role models and mentors! ?You can also give her the NOPBC
>>> website
>>> (www.nfb.org/nopbc), which is a starting place for finding resources.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: ? ? ? ?Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com>
>>> To: ? ? ? ?National Asociation of Blind Students <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Date: ? ? ? ?11/04/2010 02:21 PM
>>> Subject: ? ? ? ?[nabs-l] questions from a parent of a blind child
>>> Sent by: ? ? ? ?nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Today, a woman i had briefly met freshman year approached me.
>>> Apparently, now she has a 2 year old who is blind. She seemed really
>>> positive, and wants to meet with me because she has questions. I want
>>> to take advantage of her positive outlook and point her towards the
>>> right information. I know there is a national parents division, but it
>>> is not active in North Carolina. I know that this is a student list,
>>> but I thought someone could connect me with relevant resources and/or
>>> literature, because I am not that familiar with it.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cindy Bennett
>>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>>>
>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>> 828.989.5383
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/barbara.mathews%40sce.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cindy Bennett
>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>>
>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>> 828.989.5383
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 5
>> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:05:47 -0400
>> From: "Ben Schuler" <bschuler45 at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>> Message-ID: <000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset="us-ascii"
>>
>> Hey Everyone,
>>
>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the
>> new
>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
>> touch screen.
>>
>> >From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be
>> just
>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these apps?
>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are able
>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>> little
>> longer?
>>
>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>> anyone
>> know if there is one out there?
>>
>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Ben Schuler
>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 6
>> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 18:18:23 -0700
>> From: Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com>
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Few questions on Student seminars....
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<AANLkTinmKG=NPz6wL49OTehPOKyZu1gPCf70KNVKwVoN at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>>
>> In california, we have had  our seminars in both northern  and
>> southern california.  The  Student division has had set-up shop in
>> locations such as  our state school for the blind and a  religious
>> college campus.  if you have a larger and well-known college in a
>> larger city (San Francisco  and San Francisco State, or Berkley and
>> University of California  at Berkley, in the case of california), you
>> will find that not only could students who live a distance away find
>> it easier to  access the location by a form of  mass-transit, but, you
>> might even have a pretty good amount of students on campus who   could
>>  pretty much walk out of their dorms and into the seminar.
>>  Getting speakers in the local community/colllege administrators and
>> Federationests who all have unique stories to share that would benifit
>> the population you would idealy have  might be a cost-effective and
>> community building option for  the student division.
>>
>> On 11/5/10, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> We hold our seminar in Raleigh. This is a central city that is easy to
>>> get to from the whole state, and most of our leaders in NABS live
>>> there. But I do think that if you start having one every year, moving
>>> it around wouldn't be such a bad idea.
>>>
>>> We try to charge as little as possible for students to come, so that
>>> way more can come, and they can spend other money on transportation.
>>> We colaborate with the local DSB offices, that is division of services
>>> for the blind, not sure what it's called in New York, and some of them
>>> are willing to bring vans of students to the seminar so that
>>> eliminates the transportation costs. That being said, we have not done
>>> an overnight seminar, so we have never had to think about hotel costs
>>> and more than one meal.
>>>
>>> The money we use to run the seminar comes from a yearly fund raiser
>>> that we do. We work with a vendor who graciously donates snacks to us
>>> and make snack packs for our state convention. They are a hit. Some
>>> other popular fund raisers are the Belk days cards. Basically, they
>>> give organizations $5 off gift cards, and the organization charges $5
>>> for them. So people are giving $5 to the organization instead of Belk,
>>> and then they go to Belk on the designated Saturday and get $5 off.
>>> This is most effective if you sell them near the store on that day.
>>> One thing my local chapter did was get a local Apple Bee's to do a
>>> pancake breakfast for $2 a person. The chapter then sold tickets for
>>> $7, and a lot of people heading into work saw the sign and stopped in
>>> for breakfast. At school, psi chi has done a couple of fund raisers
>>> with restaurants such as Moe's and Buffalo Wild Wings in which you
>>> tell people to place their receipts in a bucket by the register and a
>>> portion of the profit from each receipt in the bucket at the end of
>>> the day goes to the organization. This can be a bit tricky, because it
>>> means you have to get people to go out to eat, and sometimes the
>>> restaurants aren't very supportive of you going to the restaurant and
>>> telling strangers to support you, because it means more money that
>>> they are giving the organization. To me, the best fund raisers involve
>>> projects that the division does not have to spend a lot of initial
>>> money on, but I know this can sometimes be difficult.
>>>
>>> I know Wall-Mart has a grant for nonprofits, and I know a couple of
>>> local chapters in North Carolina have received it to put on various
>>> events, but I don't have any personal experience with it.
>>>
>>> A key thing would be to try to get as many presenters to come for free
>>> as you can, or to get NFB members with various expertises to present.
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> On 11/5/10, Alexander Castillo <alexandera.castillo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hello All, here in New York, we are thinking of having our first
>>>> student seminar in a long time. Before we do so, there are a couple of
>>>> questions that some of you might be able to assist us with.
>>>>
>>>> What sort of funding is typically used to put on a seminar? As I
>>>> understand things, we are able  to apply for funding from the
>>>> Imagination Fund, however, are there additional resources that are
>>>> used? Have any of your divisions put together a seminar in which some
>>>> participants were sponsored by a  state agency? If so,  what steps did
>>>> you take to have these students sponsored?
>>>>
>>>> What does your typical agenda look like? We are looking at three main
>>>> points of focus; these would be Technology, education, and other
>>>> useful resources.
>>>>
>>>> Like most of your states, New York has students spread throughout the
>>>> state: What sort of locations are regularly used to hold your
>>>> seminars?
>>>>
>>>> Looking forward to your answers.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for reading,
>>>> Alex
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cindy Bennett
>>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>>>
>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>> 828.989.5383
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Darian Smith
>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>>
>>
>> ?We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
>> spiritual beings having a human experience.? - Teilhard de Chardin
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 7
>> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 21:20:32 -0400
>> From: "Anjelina" <anjelinac26 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>> Message-ID: <81AE66D0F5AF4F819EE3E0A5E3A9C404 at D9P3ZND1>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
>> 	reply-type=original
>>
>> Hi Ben,
>> I can't say enough good things about the iPhone. It does have a bit of a
>> learning curve, but nothing that a week or so can't cure. The majority of
>> the apps I've installed are fully accessible with voiceover. I've used a
>> few
>> of the free recognition apps, and I've had success identifying labels,
>> dollar bills and even print pages.
>> www.blindcooltech.com
>> has many iPhone podcasts. If you can stop in an Apple or AT&T store to get
>> some hands-on experience with the phone before making a purchase you might
>> not feel as intimidated by the phone. The Apple reps I've spoken with are
>> very familiar with Voiceover.
>> Good luck with whatever you choose.
>> Anjelina
>> Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
>> Albert Einstein
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Ben Schuler" <bschuler45 at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 9:05 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>>
>>
>>> Hey Everyone,
>>>
>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the
>>> new
>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
>>> touch screen.
>>>
>>>>From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be
>>>>just
>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these apps?
>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are
>>> able
>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>>> little
>>> longer?
>>>
>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>> anyone
>>> know if there is one out there?
>>>
>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>>
>>> Ben Schuler
>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 8
>> Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2010 19:16:52 -0700
>> From: Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com>
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> 	<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>> Message-ID: <4CD4BA94.8050003 at gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>> Hello Ben,
>>
>> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
>> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a visit
>> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>>
>> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
>> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
>> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other attributes
>> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which the
>> K-NFB Reader is based.
>>
>> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. One
>> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
>> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
>> identify objects.
>>
>> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of these
>> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the iPhone.
>>
>> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
>> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>>
>> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
>> about the apps that are accessible.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Darrell
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>>> Hey Everyone,
>>>
>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the
>>> new
>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
>>> touch screen.
>>>
>>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be
>>>> just
>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these apps?
>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are
>>> able
>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>>> little
>>> longer?
>>>
>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>> anyone
>>> know if there is one out there?
>>>
>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>>
>>> Ben Schuler
>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Nicole
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>
>>
>
>
> -- (Conchita)_______________________________________
> Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds
> Albert Einstein
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/treyman19%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Roosevelt Bradley


From alexandera.castillo at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 21:43:04 2010
From: alexandera.castillo at gmail.com (Alexander Castillo)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 17:43:04 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Questions on student seminars
Message-ID: <AANLkTimyD+QbGs=bsSv-z0pAKJ4JiXh6=iG0qWaQs+HQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all, thanks for your responses. They are extremely helpful.



Alex


From trillian551 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 22:50:12 2010
From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 18:50:12 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com> <4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ben,
I had an Iphone for 3  weeks and gave it to my brother. The phone
itself is great. And hte touch screen is absolutely no problem. In
fact I much prefer it to a classic phone. However, double tapping when
texting and writing in general drove me off the wall. I hear there is
an app  that you can dictate text to, however, seeing as I didn't
always want ot tell my messages to my phone when in  public, I didn't
buy into the idea too much. I'm really disappointed that apple did not
include an option to simple single tap or double tap, as the user
preferred.
Good luck, and like everyone else has pointed out, to to  an apple
store and try playing with it.
Good luck
Mary

On 11/5/10, Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Ben,
>
> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a visit
> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>
> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other attributes
> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which the
> K-NFB Reader is based.
>
> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. One
> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
> identify objects.
>
> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of these
> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the iPhone.
>
> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>
> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
> about the apps that are accessible.
>
> Regards,
>
> Darrell
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>> Hey Everyone,
>>
>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the
>> new
>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
>> touch screen.
>>
>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be
>>> just
>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these apps?
>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are able
>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>> little
>> longer?
>>
>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>> anyone
>> know if there is one out there?
>>
>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Ben Schuler
>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Mary Fernandez
Emory University 2012
P.O. Box 123056
Atlanta Ga.
30322
Phone: 732-857-7004
"Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
teachers."
Charles W. Eliot


From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 23:17:39 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 17:17:39 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com>
	<4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6D250D2683554486975BD3FE02EFF208@MarcPC>

Mary,

In the iPhone operating system 4.0, Apple introduced touch typing. 
Essentially, you put your finger over the desired character, and when you 
release your finger, the character is entered in the edit field.  So you now 
have the option of standard typing or touch typing.

BTW, even with the old operating system, one always had the ability to split 
tap rather than double tap.  Most people I know found split tapping faster 
than double tapping, and touch typing is still faster than that.

Best,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users


> Hi Ben,
> I had an Iphone for 3  weeks and gave it to my brother. The phone
> itself is great. And hte touch screen is absolutely no problem. In
> fact I much prefer it to a classic phone. However, double tapping when
> texting and writing in general drove me off the wall. I hear there is
> an app  that you can dictate text to, however, seeing as I didn't
> always want ot tell my messages to my phone when in  public, I didn't
> buy into the idea too much. I'm really disappointed that apple did not
> include an option to simple single tap or double tap, as the user
> preferred.
> Good luck, and like everyone else has pointed out, to to  an apple
> store and try playing with it.
> Good luck
> Mary
>
> On 11/5/10, Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello Ben,
>>
>> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
>> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a visit
>> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>>
>> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
>> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
>> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other attributes
>> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which the
>> K-NFB Reader is based.
>>
>> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. One
>> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
>> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
>> identify objects.
>>
>> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of these
>> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the 
>> iPhone.
>>
>> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
>> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>>
>> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
>> about the apps that are accessible.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Darrell
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>>> Hey Everyone,
>>>
>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the
>>> new
>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
>>> touch screen.
>>>
>>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be
>>>> just
>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these 
>>> apps?
>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are 
>>> able
>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>>> little
>>> longer?
>>>
>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>> anyone
>>> know if there is one out there?
>>>
>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>>
>>> Ben Schuler
>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Mary Fernandez
> Emory University 2012
> P.O. Box 123056
> Atlanta Ga.
> 30322
> Phone: 732-857-7004
> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
> teachers."
> Charles W. Eliot
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com 



From trillian551 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 23:24:51 2010
From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 19:24:51 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <6D250D2683554486975BD3FE02EFF208@MarcPC>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com> <4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com>
	<6D250D2683554486975BD3FE02EFF208@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=jg8MtTpVnaTBnA8QGKFf0tUyhYxiu6gVtjvuu@mail.gmail.com>

But how do you activate it?
Mary


On 11/6/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mary,
>
> In the iPhone operating system 4.0, Apple introduced touch typing.
> Essentially, you put your finger over the desired character, and when you
> release your finger, the character is entered in the edit field.  So you now
> have the option of standard typing or touch typing.
>
> BTW, even with the old operating system, one always had the ability to split
> tap rather than double tap.  Most people I know found split tapping faster
> than double tapping, and touch typing is still faster than that.
>
> Best,
>
> Marc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>
>
>> Hi Ben,
>> I had an Iphone for 3  weeks and gave it to my brother. The phone
>> itself is great. And hte touch screen is absolutely no problem. In
>> fact I much prefer it to a classic phone. However, double tapping when
>> texting and writing in general drove me off the wall. I hear there is
>> an app  that you can dictate text to, however, seeing as I didn't
>> always want ot tell my messages to my phone when in  public, I didn't
>> buy into the idea too much. I'm really disappointed that apple did not
>> include an option to simple single tap or double tap, as the user
>> preferred.
>> Good luck, and like everyone else has pointed out, to to  an apple
>> store and try playing with it.
>> Good luck
>> Mary
>>
>> On 11/5/10, Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello Ben,
>>>
>>> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
>>> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a visit
>>> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>>>
>>> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
>>> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
>>> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other attributes
>>> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which the
>>> K-NFB Reader is based.
>>>
>>> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. One
>>> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
>>> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
>>> identify objects.
>>>
>>> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of these
>>> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the
>>> iPhone.
>>>
>>> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
>>> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>>>
>>> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
>>> about the apps that are accessible.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Darrell
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>>>> Hey Everyone,
>>>>
>>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the
>>>> new
>>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
>>>> touch screen.
>>>>
>>>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be
>>>>> just
>>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
>>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these
>>>> apps?
>>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are
>>>> able
>>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>>>> little
>>>> longer?
>>>>
>>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>>> anyone
>>>> know if there is one out there?
>>>>
>>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Ben Schuler
>>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mary Fernandez
>> Emory University 2012
>> P.O. Box 123056
>> Atlanta Ga.
>> 30322
>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>> teachers."
>> Charles W. Eliot
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Mary Fernandez
Emory University 2012
P.O. Box 123056
Atlanta Ga.
30322
Phone: 732-857-7004
"Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
teachers."
Charles W. Eliot


From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 23:32:22 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 17:32:22 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=jg8MtTpVnaTBnA8QGKFf0tUyhYxiu6gVtjvuu@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com>
	<4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com><AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com><6D250D2683554486975BD3FE02EFF208@MarcPC>
	<AANLkTi=jg8MtTpVnaTBnA8QGKFf0tUyhYxiu6gVtjvuu@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <862E75DDED7F473399A636E4DC2C89B1@MarcPC>

When you're in an edit field, one of the roter settings is called typing 
mode.  You can then swipe one finger up or down to switch back and forth 
between touch typing and standard typing.

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users


> But how do you activate it?
> Mary
>
>
> On 11/6/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mary,
>>
>> In the iPhone operating system 4.0, Apple introduced touch typing.
>> Essentially, you put your finger over the desired character, and when you
>> release your finger, the character is entered in the edit field.  So you 
>> now
>> have the option of standard typing or touch typing.
>>
>> BTW, even with the old operating system, one always had the ability to 
>> split
>> tap rather than double tap.  Most people I know found split tapping 
>> faster
>> than double tapping, and touch typing is still faster than that.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Marc
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>>
>>
>>> Hi Ben,
>>> I had an Iphone for 3  weeks and gave it to my brother. The phone
>>> itself is great. And hte touch screen is absolutely no problem. In
>>> fact I much prefer it to a classic phone. However, double tapping when
>>> texting and writing in general drove me off the wall. I hear there is
>>> an app  that you can dictate text to, however, seeing as I didn't
>>> always want ot tell my messages to my phone when in  public, I didn't
>>> buy into the idea too much. I'm really disappointed that apple did not
>>> include an option to simple single tap or double tap, as the user
>>> preferred.
>>> Good luck, and like everyone else has pointed out, to to  an apple
>>> store and try playing with it.
>>> Good luck
>>> Mary
>>>
>>> On 11/5/10, Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hello Ben,
>>>>
>>>> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
>>>> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a 
>>>> visit
>>>> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>>>>
>>>> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
>>>> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
>>>> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other attributes
>>>> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which the
>>>> K-NFB Reader is based.
>>>>
>>>> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. One
>>>> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
>>>> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
>>>> identify objects.
>>>>
>>>> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of 
>>>> these
>>>> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the
>>>> iPhone.
>>>>
>>>> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
>>>> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>>>>
>>>> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
>>>> about the apps that are accessible.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Darrell
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>>>>> Hey Everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about 
>>>>> the
>>>>> new
>>>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses 
>>>>> a
>>>>> touch screen.
>>>>>
>>>>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would 
>>>>>> be
>>>>>> just
>>>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will 
>>>>> identify
>>>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these
>>>>> apps?
>>>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are
>>>>> able
>>>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>>>>> little
>>>>> longer?
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> know if there is one out there?
>>>>>
>>>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ben Schuler
>>>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mary Fernandez
>>> Emory University 2012
>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>> 30322
>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>>> teachers."
>>> Charles W. Eliot
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Mary Fernandez
> Emory University 2012
> P.O. Box 123056
> Atlanta Ga.
> 30322
> Phone: 732-857-7004
> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
> teachers."
> Charles W. Eliot
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com 



From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sat Nov  6 23:33:00 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 19:33:00 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
Message-ID: <20101106233300.29640.78973@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>

How do you activate touch typing?

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Mary,

> In the iPhone operating system 4.0, Apple introduced touch typing.
> Essentially, you put your finger over the desired character, and when you
> release your finger, the character is entered in the edit field.  So you now
> have the option of standard typing or touch typing.

> BTW, even with the old operating system, one always had the ability to split
> tap rather than double tap.  Most people I know found split tapping faster
> than double tapping, and touch typing is still faster than that.

> Best,

> Marc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users


>> Hi Ben,
>> I had an Iphone for 3  weeks and gave it to my brother. The phone
>> itself is great. And hte touch screen is absolutely no problem. In
>> fact I much prefer it to a classic phone. However, double tapping when
>> texting and writing in general drove me off the wall. I hear there is
>> an app  that you can dictate text to, however, seeing as I didn't
>> always want ot tell my messages to my phone when in  public, I didn't
>> buy into the idea too much. I'm really disappointed that apple did not
>> include an option to simple single tap or double tap, as the user
>> preferred.
>> Good luck, and like everyone else has pointed out, to to  an apple
>> store and try playing with it.
>> Good luck
>> Mary

>> On 11/5/10, Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hello Ben,

>>> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
>>> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a visit
>>> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.

>>> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
>>> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
>>> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other attributes
>>> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which the
>>> K-NFB Reader is based.

>>> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. One
>>> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
>>> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
>>> identify objects.

>>> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of these
>>> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the
>>> iPhone.

>>> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
>>> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.

>>> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
>>> about the apps that are accessible.

>>> Regards,

>>> Darrell






>>> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>>>> Hey Everyone,

>>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the
>>>> new
>>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
>>>> touch screen.

>>>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be
>>>>> just
>>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
>>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these
>>>> apps?
>>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are
>>>> able
>>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>>>> little
>>>> longer?

>>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>>> anyone
>>>> know if there is one out there?

>>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.

>>>> Ben Schuler
>>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com





>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com

>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com



>> --
>> Mary Fernandez
>> Emory University 2012
>> P.O. Box 123056
>> Atlanta Ga.
>> 30322
>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>> teachers."
>> Charles W. Eliot

>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com


> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.



From trillian551 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 23:37:08 2010
From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 19:37:08 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <862E75DDED7F473399A636E4DC2C89B1@MarcPC>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com> <4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com>
	<6D250D2683554486975BD3FE02EFF208@MarcPC>
	<AANLkTi=jg8MtTpVnaTBnA8QGKFf0tUyhYxiu6gVtjvuu@mail.gmail.com>
	<862E75DDED7F473399A636E4DC2C89B1@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=FHHEa-UKQCJ46-yjn51kPcbF8QYVqChG5fgX+@mail.gmail.com>

Oh wow. cool. I'll have to play with that. Giving my iphone away was
one of the saddset things ever.
Thanks!
Mary


On 11/6/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
> When you're in an edit field, one of the roter settings is called typing
> mode.  You can then swipe one finger up or down to switch back and forth
> between touch typing and standard typing.
>
> Marc
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>
>
>> But how do you activate it?
>> Mary
>>
>>
>> On 11/6/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Mary,
>>>
>>> In the iPhone operating system 4.0, Apple introduced touch typing.
>>> Essentially, you put your finger over the desired character, and when you
>>> release your finger, the character is entered in the edit field.  So you
>>> now
>>> have the option of standard typing or touch typing.
>>>
>>> BTW, even with the old operating system, one always had the ability to
>>> split
>>> tap rather than double tap.  Most people I know found split tapping
>>> faster
>>> than double tapping, and touch typing is still faster than that.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Marc
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:50 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Ben,
>>>> I had an Iphone for 3  weeks and gave it to my brother. The phone
>>>> itself is great. And hte touch screen is absolutely no problem. In
>>>> fact I much prefer it to a classic phone. However, double tapping when
>>>> texting and writing in general drove me off the wall. I hear there is
>>>> an app  that you can dictate text to, however, seeing as I didn't
>>>> always want ot tell my messages to my phone when in  public, I didn't
>>>> buy into the idea too much. I'm really disappointed that apple did not
>>>> include an option to simple single tap or double tap, as the user
>>>> preferred.
>>>> Good luck, and like everyone else has pointed out, to to  an apple
>>>> store and try playing with it.
>>>> Good luck
>>>> Mary
>>>>
>>>> On 11/5/10, Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hello Ben,
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
>>>>> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a
>>>>> visit
>>>>> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>>>>>
>>>>> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
>>>>> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
>>>>> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other attributes
>>>>> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which the
>>>>> K-NFB Reader is based.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. One
>>>>> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
>>>>> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
>>>>> identify objects.
>>>>>
>>>>> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of
>>>>> these
>>>>> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the
>>>>> iPhone.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
>>>>> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
>>>>> about the apps that are accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Darrell
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>>>>>> Hey Everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> touch screen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will
>>>>>> identify
>>>>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these
>>>>>> apps?
>>>>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are
>>>>>> able
>>>>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>>>>>> little
>>>>>> longer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>> know if there is one out there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben Schuler
>>>>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>> Emory University 2012
>>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>>> 30322
>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>>>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>>>> teachers."
>>>> Charles W. Eliot
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Mary Fernandez
>> Emory University 2012
>> P.O. Box 123056
>> Atlanta Ga.
>> 30322
>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>> teachers."
>> Charles W. Eliot
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Mary Fernandez
Emory University 2012
P.O. Box 123056
Atlanta Ga.
30322
Phone: 732-857-7004
"Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
teachers."
Charles W. Eliot


From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Sat Nov  6 23:47:25 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 16:47:25 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com><4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com><AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com><6D250D2683554486975BD3FE02EFF208@MarcPC><AANLkTi=jg8MtTpVnaTBnA8QGKFf0tUyhYxiu6gVtjvuu@mail.gmail.com>
	<862E75DDED7F473399A636E4DC2C89B1@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <57FCD24BA5E249279C1DFEE25DD3E024@stanford.edu>

Do you know how to switch vo between words and characters?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marc Workman" <mworkman.lists at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users


> When you're in an edit field, one of the roter settings is called typing 
> mode.  You can then swipe one finger up or down to switch back and forth 
> between touch typing and standard typing.
>
> Marc
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 5:24 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>
>
>> But how do you activate it?
>> Mary
>>
>>
>> On 11/6/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Mary,
>>>
>>> In the iPhone operating system 4.0, Apple introduced touch typing.
>>> Essentially, you put your finger over the desired character, and when 
>>> you
>>> release your finger, the character is entered in the edit field.  So you 
>>> now
>>> have the option of standard typing or touch typing.
>>>
>>> BTW, even with the old operating system, one always had the ability to 
>>> split
>>> tap rather than double tap.  Most people I know found split tapping 
>>> faster
>>> than double tapping, and touch typing is still faster than that.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Marc
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:50 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi Ben,
>>>> I had an Iphone for 3  weeks and gave it to my brother. The phone
>>>> itself is great. And hte touch screen is absolutely no problem. In
>>>> fact I much prefer it to a classic phone. However, double tapping when
>>>> texting and writing in general drove me off the wall. I hear there is
>>>> an app  that you can dictate text to, however, seeing as I didn't
>>>> always want ot tell my messages to my phone when in  public, I didn't
>>>> buy into the idea too much. I'm really disappointed that apple did not
>>>> include an option to simple single tap or double tap, as the user
>>>> preferred.
>>>> Good luck, and like everyone else has pointed out, to to  an apple
>>>> store and try playing with it.
>>>> Good luck
>>>> Mary
>>>>
>>>> On 11/5/10, Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Hello Ben,
>>>>>
>>>>> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
>>>>> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a 
>>>>> visit
>>>>> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>>>>>
>>>>> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
>>>>> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
>>>>> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other 
>>>>> attributes
>>>>> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which 
>>>>> the
>>>>> K-NFB Reader is based.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. 
>>>>> One
>>>>> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
>>>>> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
>>>>> identify objects.
>>>>>
>>>>> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of 
>>>>> these
>>>>> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the
>>>>> iPhone.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
>>>>> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
>>>>> about the apps that are accessible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Darrell
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>>>>>> Hey Everyone,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses 
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> touch screen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would 
>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will 
>>>>>> identify
>>>>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these
>>>>>> apps?
>>>>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are
>>>>>> able
>>>>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>>>>>> little
>>>>>> longer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>> know if there is one out there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben Schuler
>>>>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>> Emory University 2012
>>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>>> 30322
>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>>>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>>>> teachers."
>>>> Charles W. Eliot
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Mary Fernandez
>> Emory University 2012
>> P.O. Box 123056
>> Atlanta Ga.
>> 30322
>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>> teachers."
>> Charles W. Eliot
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 23:48:08 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 16:48:08 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <20101106233300.29640.78973@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
References: <20101106233300.29640.78973@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
Message-ID: <4CD5E938.5060707@gmail.com>

Hello,

Follow these steps to switch to touch typing:

1. Move to and double tap a text field so you are editing.
2. Place two fingers on the screen and turn them clockwise like a radio 
dial.
3. Move the rotor in this way until you reach the Typing Mode selection.
4. Flick up or down to switch between "standard typing" and "touch 
typing" modes.

Regards,

Darrell



On 11/6/2010 4:33 PM, Jedi wrote:
> How do you activate touch typing?
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> Mary,
>
>> In the iPhone operating system 4.0, Apple introduced touch typing.
>> Essentially, you put your finger over the desired character, and when you
>> release your finger, the character is entered in the edit field. So
>> you now
>> have the option of standard typing or touch typing.
>
>> BTW, even with the old operating system, one always had the ability to
>> split
>> tap rather than double tap. Most people I know found split tapping faster
>> than double tapping, and touch typing is still faster than that.
>
>> Best,
>
>> Marc
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:50 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>
>
>>> Hi Ben,
>>> I had an Iphone for 3 weeks and gave it to my brother. The phone
>>> itself is great. And hte touch screen is absolutely no problem. In
>>> fact I much prefer it to a classic phone. However, double tapping when
>>> texting and writing in general drove me off the wall. I hear there is
>>> an app that you can dictate text to, however, seeing as I didn't
>>> always want ot tell my messages to my phone when in public, I didn't
>>> buy into the idea too much. I'm really disappointed that apple did not
>>> include an option to simple single tap or double tap, as the user
>>> preferred.
>>> Good luck, and like everyone else has pointed out, to to an apple
>>> store and try playing with it.
>>> Good luck
>>> Mary
>
>>> On 11/5/10, Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hello Ben,
>
>>>> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
>>>> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a
>>>> visit
>>>> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>
>>>> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
>>>> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
>>>> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other attributes
>>>> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which the
>>>> K-NFB Reader is based.
>
>>>> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. One
>>>> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
>>>> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
>>>> identify objects.
>
>>>> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of
>>>> these
>>>> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the
>>>> iPhone.
>
>>>> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
>>>> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>
>>>> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
>>>> about the apps that are accessible.
>
>>>> Regards,
>
>>>> Darrell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>>>>> Hey Everyone,
>
>>>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about
>>>>> the
>>>>> new
>>>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it
>>>>> uses a
>>>>> touch screen.
>
>>>>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it
>>>>>> would be
>>>>>> just
>>>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will
>>>>> identify
>>>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these
>>>>> apps?
>>>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are
>>>>> able
>>>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>>>>> little
>>>>> longer?
>
>>>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>>>> anyone
>>>>> know if there is one out there?
>
>>>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>
>>>>> Ben Schuler
>>>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>
>
>
>
>>> --
>>> Mary Fernandez
>>> Emory University 2012
>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>> 30322
>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>>> teachers."
>>> Charles W. Eliot
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>


From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Sat Nov  6 23:50:55 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Sat, 06 Nov 2010 16:50:55 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <57FCD24BA5E249279C1DFEE25DD3E024@stanford.edu>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com><4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com><AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com><6D250D2683554486975BD3FE02EFF208@MarcPC><AANLkTi=jg8MtTpVnaTBnA8QGKFf0tUyhYxiu6gVtjvuu@mail.gmail.com>	<862E75DDED7F473399A636E4DC2C89B1@MarcPC>
	<57FCD24BA5E249279C1DFEE25DD3E024@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <4CD5E9DF.8040709@gmail.com>

Hello Nicole,

Switching between characters and words is also on the rotor. Just place 
two fingers on the screen and move clockwise or counter-clockwise like a 
radio dial to select.

Regards,

Darrell



On 11/6/2010 4:47 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini wrote:
> Do you know how to switch vo between words and characters?
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman"
> <mworkman.lists at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:32 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>
>
>> When you're in an edit field, one of the roter settings is called
>> typing mode. You can then swipe one finger up or down to switch back
>> and forth between touch typing and standard typing.
>>
>> Marc
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Fernandez"
>> <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 5:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>>
>>
>>> But how do you activate it?
>>> Mary
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/6/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Mary,
>>>>
>>>> In the iPhone operating system 4.0, Apple introduced touch typing.
>>>> Essentially, you put your finger over the desired character, and
>>>> when you
>>>> release your finger, the character is entered in the edit field. So
>>>> you now
>>>> have the option of standard typing or touch typing.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, even with the old operating system, one always had the ability
>>>> to split
>>>> tap rather than double tap. Most people I know found split tapping
>>>> faster
>>>> than double tapping, and touch typing is still faster than that.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Marc
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:50 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Ben,
>>>>> I had an Iphone for 3 weeks and gave it to my brother. The phone
>>>>> itself is great. And hte touch screen is absolutely no problem. In
>>>>> fact I much prefer it to a classic phone. However, double tapping when
>>>>> texting and writing in general drove me off the wall. I hear there is
>>>>> an app that you can dictate text to, however, seeing as I didn't
>>>>> always want ot tell my messages to my phone when in public, I didn't
>>>>> buy into the idea too much. I'm really disappointed that apple did not
>>>>> include an option to simple single tap or double tap, as the user
>>>>> preferred.
>>>>> Good luck, and like everyone else has pointed out, to to an apple
>>>>> store and try playing with it.
>>>>> Good luck
>>>>> Mary
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/5/10, Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Ben,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
>>>>>> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a
>>>>>> visit
>>>>>> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
>>>>>> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
>>>>>> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other
>>>>>> attributes
>>>>>> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on
>>>>>> which the
>>>>>> K-NFB Reader is based.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify
>>>>>> money. One
>>>>>> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
>>>>>> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
>>>>>> identify objects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the
>>>>>> iPhone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
>>>>>> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
>>>>>> about the apps that are accessible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Darrell
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey Everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking
>>>>>>> about the
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it
>>>>>>> uses a
>>>>>>> touch screen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it
>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will
>>>>>>> identify
>>>>>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these
>>>>>>> apps?
>>>>>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you
>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it
>>>>>>> take a
>>>>>>> little
>>>>>>> longer?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>> know if there is one out there?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ben Schuler
>>>>>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>>> Emory University 2012
>>>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>>>> 30322
>>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>>>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>>>>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>>>>> teachers."
>>>>> Charles W. Eliot
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Mary Fernandez
>>> Emory University 2012
>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>> 30322
>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>>> teachers."
>>> Charles W. Eliot
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>


From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Sun Nov  7 01:33:49 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:33:49 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <4CD5E9DF.8040709@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com><4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com><AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com><6D250D2683554486975BD3FE02EFF208@MarcPC><AANLkTi=jg8MtTpVnaTBnA8QGKFf0tUyhYxiu6gVtjvuu@mail.gmail.com>	<862E75DDED7F473399A636E4DC2C89B1@MarcPC>
	<57FCD24BA5E249279C1DFEE25DD3E024@stanford.edu>
	<4CD5E9DF.8040709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B1CE82FC-3F84-4BF1-B689-76447CAEE942@gmail.com>

It is true that getting used to typing on the iPhone takes time. I really feel as though I didn't become actually efficient with it until I had spent a month or so trying and trying. I don't exactly know if I am faster or slower than I was with the physical keyboard on my old HTC phone, but I am definitely fast enough for texting and writing emails. If I need the phone to type long texts I use a very tiny bluetooth keyboard. This is only to take notes in class or things that would normally require a laptop or something like that. And as other people said, the touch screen is no problem at all. That is actually way faster than navigating any other accessible device. Especially web browsing on the iPhone cannot even be compared with using Mobile Speak, Talks or anything else. Safari on the iPHone just works better in my opinion.
On Nov 6, 2010, at 7:50 PM, Darrell Shandrow wrote:

> Hello Nicole,
> 
> Switching between characters and words is also on the rotor. Just place two fingers on the screen and move clockwise or counter-clockwise like a radio dial to select.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Darrell
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/6/2010 4:47 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini wrote:
>> Do you know how to switch vo between words and characters?
>> 
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marc Workman"
>> <mworkman.lists at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:32 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>> 
>> 
>>> When you're in an edit field, one of the roter settings is called
>>> typing mode. You can then swipe one finger up or down to switch back
>>> and forth between touch typing and standard typing.
>>> 
>>> Marc
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Fernandez"
>>> <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 5:24 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> But how do you activate it?
>>>> Mary
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 11/6/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Mary,
>>>>> 
>>>>> In the iPhone operating system 4.0, Apple introduced touch typing.
>>>>> Essentially, you put your finger over the desired character, and
>>>>> when you
>>>>> release your finger, the character is entered in the edit field. So
>>>>> you now
>>>>> have the option of standard typing or touch typing.
>>>>> 
>>>>> BTW, even with the old operating system, one always had the ability
>>>>> to split
>>>>> tap rather than double tap. Most people I know found split tapping
>>>>> faster
>>>>> than double tapping, and touch typing is still faster than that.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Marc
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:50 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Ben,
>>>>>> I had an Iphone for 3 weeks and gave it to my brother. The phone
>>>>>> itself is great. And hte touch screen is absolutely no problem. In
>>>>>> fact I much prefer it to a classic phone. However, double tapping when
>>>>>> texting and writing in general drove me off the wall. I hear there is
>>>>>> an app that you can dictate text to, however, seeing as I didn't
>>>>>> always want ot tell my messages to my phone when in public, I didn't
>>>>>> buy into the idea too much. I'm really disappointed that apple did not
>>>>>> include an option to simple single tap or double tap, as the user
>>>>>> preferred.
>>>>>> Good luck, and like everyone else has pointed out, to to an apple
>>>>>> store and try playing with it.
>>>>>> Good luck
>>>>>> Mary
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 11/5/10, Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hello Ben,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
>>>>>>> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a
>>>>>>> visit
>>>>>>> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
>>>>>>> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
>>>>>>> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other
>>>>>>> attributes
>>>>>>> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on
>>>>>>> which the
>>>>>>> K-NFB Reader is based.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify
>>>>>>> money. One
>>>>>>> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
>>>>>>> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
>>>>>>> identify objects.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of
>>>>>>> these
>>>>>>> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the
>>>>>>> iPhone.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
>>>>>>> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
>>>>>>> about the apps that are accessible.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Darrell
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>>>>>>>> Hey Everyone,
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking
>>>>>>>> about the
>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it
>>>>>>>> uses a
>>>>>>>> touch screen.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it
>>>>>>>>> would be
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will
>>>>>>>> identify
>>>>>>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these
>>>>>>>> apps?
>>>>>>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it
>>>>>>>> take a
>>>>>>>> little
>>>>>>>> longer?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>>> know if there is one out there?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ben Schuler
>>>>>>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>>>> Emory University 2012
>>>>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>>>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>>>>> 30322
>>>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>>>>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>>>>>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>>>>>> teachers."
>>>>>> Charles W. Eliot
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>> Emory University 2012
>>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>>> 30322
>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>>>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>>>> teachers."
>>>> Charles W. Eliot
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Sun Nov  7 01:34:37 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2010 21:34:37 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=FHHEa-UKQCJ46-yjn51kPcbF8QYVqChG5fgX+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com> <4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com>
	<6D250D2683554486975BD3FE02EFF208@MarcPC>
	<AANLkTi=jg8MtTpVnaTBnA8QGKFf0tUyhYxiu6gVtjvuu@mail.gmail.com>
	<862E75DDED7F473399A636E4DC2C89B1@MarcPC>
	<AANLkTi=FHHEa-UKQCJ46-yjn51kPcbF8QYVqChG5fgX+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3DED2E4F-32F4-4241-93BA-43EA953679BB@gmail.com>

Remember that this will only work on iOS 4.0 or later.
On Nov 6, 2010, at 7:37 PM, Mary Fernandez wrote:

> Oh wow. cool. I'll have to play with that. Giving my iphone away was
> one of the saddset things ever.
> Thanks!
> Mary
> 
> 
> On 11/6/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>> When you're in an edit field, one of the roter settings is called typing
>> mode.  You can then swipe one finger up or down to switch back and forth
>> between touch typing and standard typing.
>> 
>> Marc
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 5:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>> 
>> 
>>> But how do you activate it?
>>> Mary
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 11/6/10, Marc Workman <mworkman.lists at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Mary,
>>>> 
>>>> In the iPhone operating system 4.0, Apple introduced touch typing.
>>>> Essentially, you put your finger over the desired character, and when you
>>>> release your finger, the character is entered in the edit field.  So you
>>>> now
>>>> have the option of standard typing or touch typing.
>>>> 
>>>> BTW, even with the old operating system, one always had the ability to
>>>> split
>>>> tap rather than double tap.  Most people I know found split tapping
>>>> faster
>>>> than double tapping, and touch typing is still faster than that.
>>>> 
>>>> Best,
>>>> 
>>>> Marc
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Mary Fernandez" <trillian551 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 06, 2010 4:50 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Ben,
>>>>> I had an Iphone for 3  weeks and gave it to my brother. The phone
>>>>> itself is great. And hte touch screen is absolutely no problem. In
>>>>> fact I much prefer it to a classic phone. However, double tapping when
>>>>> texting and writing in general drove me off the wall. I hear there is
>>>>> an app  that you can dictate text to, however, seeing as I didn't
>>>>> always want ot tell my messages to my phone when in  public, I didn't
>>>>> buy into the idea too much. I'm really disappointed that apple did not
>>>>> include an option to simple single tap or double tap, as the user
>>>>> preferred.
>>>>> Good luck, and like everyone else has pointed out, to to  an apple
>>>>> store and try playing with it.
>>>>> Good luck
>>>>> Mary
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 11/5/10, Darrell Shandrow <darrell.shandrow at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Hello Ben,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Consider not allowing the iPhone's touch screen to intimidate you. If
>>>>>> you can play with a friend's iPhone or take a look at one during a
>>>>>> visit
>>>>>> to the Apple or AT&T Store, I think you might understand what I mean.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> As of this time, there is still no OCR app for the iPhone that
>>>>>> approaches the capabilities of the K-NFB Reader. I am confident,
>>>>>> however, there will be one very soon, and the iPhone's other attributes
>>>>>> far outweigh, in my opinion, the capabilities of the phone on which the
>>>>>> K-NFB Reader is based.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There are two free mainstream apps that can quickly identify money. One
>>>>>> is called oMoby and the other is called Noogle Noggles. They use the
>>>>>> camera to take a snapshot and use a pattern-recognition algorithm to
>>>>>> identify objects.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> You may visit http://blindaccessjournal.com for a demonstration of
>>>>>> these
>>>>>> two apps, plus a number of navigation apps and adventures with the
>>>>>> iPhone.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If you have seen an iPhone and are seriously interested in purchasing
>>>>>> one, there are many resources available to learn the iPhone.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Start by visiting http://applevis.com and check the guides and learn
>>>>>> about the apps that are accessible.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Darrell
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 11/5/2010 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey Everyone,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> touch screen.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would
>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will
>>>>>>> identify
>>>>>>> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these
>>>>>>> apps?
>>>>>>> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are
>>>>>>> able
>>>>>>> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a
>>>>>>> little
>>>>>>> longer?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does
>>>>>>> anyone
>>>>>>> know if there is one out there?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ben Schuler
>>>>>>> bschuler45 at gmail.com
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Mary Fernandez
>>>>> Emory University 2012
>>>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>>>> 30322
>>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>>>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>>>>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>>>>> teachers."
>>>>> Charles W. Eliot
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Mary Fernandez
>>> Emory University 2012
>>> P.O. Box 123056
>>> Atlanta Ga.
>>> 30322
>>> Phone: 732-857-7004
>>> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
>>> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
>>> teachers."
>>> Charles W. Eliot
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Mary Fernandez
> Emory University 2012
> P.O. Box 123056
> Atlanta Ga.
> 30322
> Phone: 732-857-7004
> "Books are the quietest and most constant of friends; they are the
> most accessible and wisest of counselors, and the most patient of
> teachers."
> Charles W. Eliot
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net  Sun Nov  7 04:00:06 2010
From: brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net (Brian Hatgelakas)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 00:00:06 -0400
Subject: [nabs-l] Setting the the talking atomic watch for day light savings
	time!
Message-ID: <000a01cb7e30$4433b340$9560c747@BRIAN>

Hello NABS members,

Does anyone have a grundig atomic talking watch.  I have a question about it.  Tonight at two AM we have to set our clocks back one hour.  I have had this watch since last February and last spring I had to manually set the time ahead one hour because it wouldn't set itself ahead on the date we sprung forward. Is their a mode I set it to so it will automatically go back one hour so that I won't have to manually set the hour and lose the updated atomic signal?  Any help would be greatly apreciated.

From gera1027 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  7 18:04:21 2010
From: gera1027 at gmail.com (Gerardo Corripio)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 12:04:21 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] How to read Word by Word in Talx?
Message-ID: <00fd01cb7ea6$42e07bb0$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>

Hi guys: Using Talx 5.03 on a Nokia 6120 cellphone when I try changing 
Talx's cursor to Words and read Word by Word with talx+left and right arrows 
Talx keeps on reading the word I'm on instead of like in Control+left&right 
arrows in Windows, move to the next word. Is this possible in Talx with 
Cellphones or is my only option moving letter by letter with the left&right 
arrows?
Thanks in advanced.
Gerardo 



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sun Nov  7 18:22:24 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 10:22:24 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com>
Message-ID: <DFE558BF-220A-4E01-9197-B1E64A333CB0@gmail.com>

Hello. See my podcasts at http://marrie.podbean.com. I have owned an iphone since june of this year and will never go back. lol!
On Nov 5, 2010, at 6:05 PM, Ben Schuler wrote:

> Hey Everyone,
> 
> My HTC Ozone has finally died on me. So, I am really thinking about the new
> Iphone, but I still am hesitant to purchase the phone because it uses a
> touch screen. 
> 
>> From everything I have read about the phone, it seems like it would be just
> as good as the KNFB reader. You can get applications that will identify
> colors, as well as OCR apps. Does anyone have experience with these apps?
> How well does Voiceover work with most apps? Do you find that you are able
> to quickly accomplish tasks using the touch screen, or does it take a little
> longer?
> 
> Also, I have not found an application that will identify money. Does anyone
> know if there is one out there?
> 
> Any feedback would be much appreciated.
> 
> Ben Schuler
> bschuler45 at gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com



From liziswhatis at hotmail.com  Sun Nov  7 20:46:38 2010
From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 14:46:38 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Calling all iPhone users
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.15.1288976405.25413.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>	<000501cb7d4e$bfeccf40$3fc66dc0$@com>
	<4CD4BA94.8050003@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinEdVBMemqPNYaetgf5Txi-kSJ7Nk-MZCs=1GUd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS14ED5FD9104FD94EBA0A00BA4E0@phx.gbl>

HI,

With the 4.0 and later OS, touch typing was introduced, wherein you can find
the letter you want and just lift your finger to type it. No more double
tapping.

Liz

email: 
liziswhatis at hotmail.com 
Visit my LiveJournal: 
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com 
Follow me on Twitter: 
http://twitter.com/lizbot 





From th404 at comcast.net  Sun Nov  7 22:55:45 2010
From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 14:55:45 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Microscope Lab Coming Up
Message-ID: <787CA527D402471BA75729F60DDEBC66@userbafffee1fc>

In one of my courses, I have a lab that will involve use of the microscope. I'm concerned about this, since everyone will need to view slides and/or prepare specimens. To give you a bit of an idea of what's coming up, I've copied the procedure and background information into this message.

Bi 131 Environmental Science

Symbiosis Laboratory

 

The populations of all living species occurring in a given area define the community.  Animals, plants, fungi, protists and bacteria are all included in this assemblage.  In addition to sharing a common piece of turf, the members of a community are also tied together by often complex interrelationships.  Symbiosis is an example of one of these relationships.

 

The term symbiosis is used to describe an ecological relationship between organisms of two different species that live in very close association with one another.  The smaller participant in the relationship is called the symbiont and the larger participant, the host.  Different types of symbiotic relationships are described based on which member benefits or is harmed by the relationship.  In mutualism, both members gain some benefit from the relationship.  In parasitism, only one member (the parasite) benefits (usually the smaller) at the host's expense.  If there is no clear harm or benefit to the host the relationship is commensalism.

 

In today's laboratory we will examine a number of examples of symbiotic relationships.  

 

PROCEDURE:

 

Examine the various examples of symbiosis available in the laboratory as described below.

 

1.         Paramecium bursaria - Make a wet mount from the Paramecium culture and view at 100X and 450X.  Note the symbiotic green algae (Zoochlorella) inside the membrane of Paramecium.

 

2.         Lichens - make wet mounts of various lichens after grinding up lichen tissues in a small amount of water with a mortar and pestle.  View slide at 100X and 450X and note the filamentous brown and colorless tissue (=fungus) and the symbiotic single-celled algae.

These algae will appear as small green spheres.

 

3.         Termites - remove termite gut as demonstrated and place contents on a microscope slide containing several drops of 0.6% saline.  Pick the tissue apart with probes and prepare a wet mount.  View at 100X and 450X and observe symbiotic protozoans (Trichonympha) and possibly, bacteria.

 

4.         Azolla (a floating fern) - make wet mounts of Azolla after grinding up tissues with a mortar and pestle.  View at 100X and 450X.  The larger, light green cells are those of Azolla and the darker, blue-green chains of cells are Anabaena, a symbiotic, nitrogen-fixing blue-green algae.

 

 

 



5.         Scale insect on pine needle - while viewing under a dissecting microscope gently lift the small, white, teardrop-shaped scale with a fine probe and observe the tiny symbiotic scale insect underneath.

 

6.         Oak galls - gently break open a gall with your hands or a pair of scissors to expose the central "core" of the gall.  Carefully cut open the central core with a razor blade or scalpel and observe the larva under a dissecting microscope.  Adult wasps that have emerged from galls may also be available for observation.  They are very small and do not sting.

 

7.         Mossy rose galls - cut open gall with scissors or scalpel.  Observe larva under dissecting microscope.

 

8.         Hydra - see demonstration under dissecting microscope on rear lab table.  Note symbiotic green algae (Zoochlorella) within the tissues of Hydra.

 

 

 

Please note:

 

Specimens #1, 2, 3, and 4 require the preparation of a microscope slide and observation using a compound microscope.  Specimens #5, 6, 7 and 8 may be viewed directly using a dissecting microscope and do not require the preparation of a slide.

 

Enter information for each symbiotic relationship on the charts on the following pages.  Fully describe the nature of the benefit or harm brought to each member of the relationship under "Description of Symbiotic Relationship".  For example, the dog-flea relationship might be described as follows:

 

"The flea benefits from the relationship by gaining nutrients and a habitat from the dog, which is harmed by losing blood, being irritated and possibly contracting a disease from     the flea."

 

On pages 3 and 4 of this handout, make detailed drawings of the host and symbiont for each relationship.  Be sure to label each drawing completely - include an overall title, names of each of the symbionts and the names of any structures that can be seen.



Does anyone out there have suggestions for dealing with labs like this? Thanks.

From brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net  Sun Nov  7 23:09:48 2010
From: brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net (Brian Hatgelakas)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 18:09:48 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] microscope lab!
Message-ID: <002001cb7ed0$e0edf6a0$9560c747@BRIAN>

Are you working individually or in a team.  If in a team I'd work as the scribe.  Or individually I'd ask for an alternative assignment such as writing a research paper or in-depth report about this topic and present it to the class.

From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Sun Nov  7 23:16:17 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 15:16:17 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] microscope lab!
References: <002001cb7ed0$e0edf6a0$9560c747@BRIAN>
Message-ID: <7893659CF74040B89F34EE7F10C2E2FD@stanford.edu>

Can you get a lab assistant? At Stanford, you are allowed to request someone 
to help you do this kind of stuff in a lab.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brian Hatgelakas" <brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 3:09 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] microscope lab!


> Are you working individually or in a team.  If in a team I'd work as the 
> scribe.  Or individually I'd ask for an alternative assignment such as 
> writing a research paper or in-depth report about this topic and present 
> it to the class.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Sun Nov  7 23:16:12 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 16:16:12 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Microscope Lab Coming Up
In-Reply-To: <787CA527D402471BA75729F60DDEBC66@userbafffee1fc>
References: <787CA527D402471BA75729F60DDEBC66@userbafffee1fc>
Message-ID: <4CD7333C.3070009@gmail.com>

Hello Tina,

In order to complete this lab successfully in its present form, you'll 
definitely need a sighted lab assistant or lab partner from your class. 
In either case, you might want to check with your university's 
disability resource center for some assistance making this assignment an 
accessible learning experience.

In the meantime, you could do some considerable online research, 
complete most of the information requested, then describe what should be 
seen rather than drawing the picture.

In this case, after all, you're just talking about natural processes 
that recur, not a situation that's dynamic.

Regards,

Darrell


On 11/7/2010 3:55 PM, Tina Hansen wrote:
> In one of my courses, I have a lab that will involve use of the microscope. I'm concerned about this, since everyone will need to view slides and/or prepare specimens. To give you a bit of an idea of what's coming up, I've copied the procedure and background information into this message.
>
> Bi 131 Environmental Science
>
> Symbiosis Laboratory
>
>
>
> The populations of all living species occurring in a given area define the community.  Animals, plants, fungi, protists and bacteria are all included in this assemblage.  In addition to sharing a common piece of turf, the members of a community are also tied together by often complex interrelationships.  Symbiosis is an example of one of these relationships.
>
>
>
> The term symbiosis is used to describe an ecological relationship between organisms of two different species that live in very close association with one another.  The smaller participant in the relationship is called the symbiont and the larger participant, the host.  Different types of symbiotic relationships are described based on which member benefits or is harmed by the relationship.  In mutualism, both members gain some benefit from the relationship.  In parasitism, only one member (the parasite) benefits (usually the smaller) at the host's expense.  If there is no clear harm or benefit to the host the relationship is commensalism.
>
>
>
> In today's laboratory we will examine a number of examples of symbiotic relationships.
>
>
>
> PROCEDURE:
>
>
>
> Examine the various examples of symbiosis available in the laboratory as described below.
>
>
>
> 1.         Paramecium bursaria - Make a wet mount from the Paramecium culture and view at 100X and 450X.  Note the symbiotic green algae (Zoochlorella) inside the membrane of Paramecium.
>
>
>
> 2.         Lichens - make wet mounts of various lichens after grinding up lichen tissues in a small amount of water with a mortar and pestle.  View slide at 100X and 450X and note the filamentous brown and colorless tissue (=fungus) and the symbiotic single-celled algae.
>
> These algae will appear as small green spheres.
>
>
>
> 3.         Termites - remove termite gut as demonstrated and place contents on a microscope slide containing several drops of 0.6% saline.  Pick the tissue apart with probes and prepare a wet mount.  View at 100X and 450X and observe symbiotic protozoans (Trichonympha) and possibly, bacteria.
>
>
>
> 4.         Azolla (a floating fern) - make wet mounts of Azolla after grinding up tissues with a mortar and pestle.  View at 100X and 450X.  The larger, light green cells are those of Azolla and the darker, blue-green chains of cells are Anabaena, a symbiotic, nitrogen-fixing blue-green algae.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 5.         Scale insect on pine needle - while viewing under a dissecting microscope gently lift the small, white, teardrop-shaped scale with a fine probe and observe the tiny symbiotic scale insect underneath.
>
>
>
> 6.         Oak galls - gently break open a gall with your hands or a pair of scissors to expose the central "core" of the gall.  Carefully cut open the central core with a razor blade or scalpel and observe the larva under a dissecting microscope.  Adult wasps that have emerged from galls may also be available for observation.  They are very small and do not sting.
>
>
>
> 7.         Mossy rose galls - cut open gall with scissors or scalpel.  Observe larva under dissecting microscope.
>
>
>
> 8.         Hydra - see demonstration under dissecting microscope on rear lab table.  Note symbiotic green algae (Zoochlorella) within the tissues of Hydra.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please note:
>
>
>
> Specimens #1, 2, 3, and 4 require the preparation of a microscope slide and observation using a compound microscope.  Specimens #5, 6, 7 and 8 may be viewed directly using a dissecting microscope and do not require the preparation of a slide.
>
>
>
> Enter information for each symbiotic relationship on the charts on the following pages.  Fully describe the nature of the benefit or harm brought to each member of the relationship under "Description of Symbiotic Relationship".  For example, the dog-flea relationship might be described as follows:
>
>
>
> "The flea benefits from the relationship by gaining nutrients and a habitat from the dog, which is harmed by losing blood, being irritated and possibly contracting a disease from     the flea."
>
>
>
> On pages 3 and 4 of this handout, make detailed drawings of the host and symbiont for each relationship.  Be sure to label each drawing completely - include an overall title, names of each of the symbionts and the names of any structures that can be seen.
>
>
>
> Does anyone out there have suggestions for dealing with labs like this? Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/darrell.shandrow%40gmail.com


From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Sun Nov  7 23:31:15 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 18:31:15 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Microscope Lab Coming Up
In-Reply-To: <787CA527D402471BA75729F60DDEBC66@userbafffee1fc>
References: <787CA527D402471BA75729F60DDEBC66@userbafffee1fc>
Message-ID: <F7C6394D40BE40B79E6DA658D311F79E@AnitaAdkinsPC>

Hi,  My only advice would be to direct your partner or a reader/aide on how 
to tell you what they see?  For example, ask what shape and size things are. 
Ask if the slide is complete covered, or if the slide is only filled with a 
small number of organisms.  If only a small number, are the smaller 
organisms trying to stay far away from the other organisms.  Your info 
probably is a good indicator of what you would see, and so you just need to 
ask specific questions to learn info not provided.  And, to do this, you 
will need to ask specific questions to provide you with appropriate 
information just as you would do to enable someone to provide you with 
specific directions from point a to point b.  Don't forget to ask about 
color.  Just some thoughts.  Anita

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tina Hansen" <th404 at comcast.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:55 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Microscope Lab Coming Up


> In one of my courses, I have a lab that will involve use of the 
> microscope. I'm concerned about this, since everyone will need to view 
> slides and/or prepare specimens. To give you a bit of an idea of what's 
> coming up, I've copied the procedure and background information into this 
> message.
>
> Bi 131 Environmental Science
>
> Symbiosis Laboratory
>
>
>
> The populations of all living species occurring in a given area define the 
> community.  Animals, plants, fungi, protists and bacteria are all included 
> in this assemblage.  In addition to sharing a common piece of turf, the 
> members of a community are also tied together by often complex 
> interrelationships.  Symbiosis is an example of one of these 
> relationships.
>
>
>
> The term symbiosis is used to describe an ecological relationship between 
> organisms of two different species that live in very close association 
> with one another.  The smaller participant in the relationship is called 
> the symbiont and the larger participant, the host.  Different types of 
> symbiotic relationships are described based on which member benefits or is 
> harmed by the relationship.  In mutualism, both members gain some benefit 
> from the relationship.  In parasitism, only one member (the parasite) 
> benefits (usually the smaller) at the host's expense.  If there is no 
> clear harm or benefit to the host the relationship is commensalism.
>
>
>
> In today's laboratory we will examine a number of examples of symbiotic 
> relationships.
>
>
>
> PROCEDURE:
>
>
>
> Examine the various examples of symbiosis available in the laboratory as 
> described below.
>
>
>
> 1.         Paramecium bursaria - Make a wet mount from the Paramecium 
> culture and view at 100X and 450X.  Note the symbiotic green algae 
> (Zoochlorella) inside the membrane of Paramecium.
>
>
>
> 2.         Lichens - make wet mounts of various lichens after grinding up 
> lichen tissues in a small amount of water with a mortar and pestle.  View 
> slide at 100X and 450X and note the filamentous brown and colorless tissue 
> (=fungus) and the symbiotic single-celled algae.
>
> These algae will appear as small green spheres.
>
>
>
> 3.         Termites - remove termite gut as demonstrated and place 
> contents on a microscope slide containing several drops of 0.6% saline. 
> Pick the tissue apart with probes and prepare a wet mount.  View at 100X 
> and 450X and observe symbiotic protozoans (Trichonympha) and possibly, 
> bacteria.
>
>
>
> 4.         Azolla (a floating fern) - make wet mounts of Azolla after 
> grinding up tissues with a mortar and pestle.  View at 100X and 450X.  The 
> larger, light green cells are those of Azolla and the darker, blue-green 
> chains of cells are Anabaena, a symbiotic, nitrogen-fixing blue-green 
> algae.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 5.         Scale insect on pine needle - while viewing under a dissecting 
> microscope gently lift the small, white, teardrop-shaped scale with a fine 
> probe and observe the tiny symbiotic scale insect underneath.
>
>
>
> 6.         Oak galls - gently break open a gall with your hands or a pair 
> of scissors to expose the central "core" of the gall.  Carefully cut open 
> the central core with a razor blade or scalpel and observe the larva under 
> a dissecting microscope.  Adult wasps that have emerged from galls may 
> also be available for observation.  They are very small and do not sting.
>
>
>
> 7.         Mossy rose galls - cut open gall with scissors or scalpel. 
> Observe larva under dissecting microscope.
>
>
>
> 8.         Hydra - see demonstration under dissecting microscope on rear 
> lab table.  Note symbiotic green algae (Zoochlorella) within the tissues 
> of Hydra.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Please note:
>
>
>
> Specimens #1, 2, 3, and 4 require the preparation of a microscope slide 
> and observation using a compound microscope.  Specimens #5, 6, 7 and 8 may 
> be viewed directly using a dissecting microscope and do not require the 
> preparation of a slide.
>
>
>
> Enter information for each symbiotic relationship on the charts on the 
> following pages.  Fully describe the nature of the benefit or harm brought 
> to each member of the relationship under "Description of Symbiotic 
> Relationship".  For example, the dog-flea relationship might be described 
> as follows:
>
>
>
> "The flea benefits from the relationship by gaining nutrients and a 
> habitat from the dog, which is harmed by losing blood, being irritated and 
> possibly contracting a disease from     the flea."
>
>
>
> On pages 3 and 4 of this handout, make detailed drawings of the host and 
> symbiont for each relationship.  Be sure to label each drawing 
> completely - include an overall title, names of each of the symbionts and 
> the names of any structures that can be seen.
>
>
>
> Does anyone out there have suggestions for dealing with labs like this? 
> Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov  8 00:25:39 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 16:25:39 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] microscope lab!
References: <002001cb7ed0$e0edf6a0$9560c747@BRIAN>
	<7893659CF74040B89F34EE7F10C2E2FD@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <00dc01cb7edb$793d28e0$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Nicole and others,
Like Nicole, when I was at Stanford and took several classes in the machine 
shop, Stanford hired an assistant for me.  I think this is the appropriate 
solution.  I would be totally opposed to you being required to rely on a lab 
partner.  This is not fair to the lab partner, and necessarily puts you on 
an unequal footing with the lab partner.  Also, your assistant should not be 
your lab partner if others in the class have partners.  You should be 
provided with an assistant to help you function independently, and you 
should then be partnered with a lab partner like all the other students in 
the class.
Best,
Dennis


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nicole B. Torcolini" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] microscope lab!


> Can you get a lab assistant? At Stanford, you are allowed to request 
> someone to help you do this kind of stuff in a lab.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Brian Hatgelakas" <brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 3:09 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] microscope lab!
>
>
>> Are you working individually or in a team.  If in a team I'd work as the 
>> scribe.  Or individually I'd ask for an alternative assignment such as 
>> writing a research paper or in-depth report about this topic and present 
>> it to the class.
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net 



From iperrault at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  8 01:09:53 2010
From: iperrault at hotmail.com (Ian Perrault)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 20:09:53 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
Message-ID: <SNT111-DS20BF81B277CA4AA50DF839BF4F0@phx.gbl>

Hi All
Thank you for reccomending that I install NVDA. It works, for the most part, with SPSS version 18. But, the only part that I can't do, which is of course is the most important part, is read the output windows, which contains all of the results for the different operations. Have any of you had 100 percent, at all, with SPSS? Any thoughts? I've been trying and my school disability office and instructor are not that helpful and they say that I absolutely need to take this course.
Ian

From hum4avila_71 at fastmail.fm  Mon Nov  8 02:40:37 2010
From: hum4avila_71 at fastmail.fm (Humberto Avila)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 18:40:37 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
In-Reply-To: <SNT111-DS20BF81B277CA4AA50DF839BF4F0@phx.gbl>
References: <SNT111-DS20BF81B277CA4AA50DF839BF4F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1ABB157B12114278AB2601698B6B45F0@HumbertoAvila>

Hello,
What is SPSS? 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Ian Perrault
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:10 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA

Hi All
Thank you for reccomending that I install NVDA. It works, for the most part,
with SPSS version 18. But, the only part that I can't do, which is of course
is the most important part, is read the output windows, which contains all
of the results for the different operations. Have any of you had 100
percent, at all, with SPSS? Any thoughts? I've been trying and my school
disability office and instructor are not that helpful and they say that I
absolutely need to take this course.
Ian
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hum4avila_71%40fastm
ail.fm
 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 5599 (20101107) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 
 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
database 5599 (20101107) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com
 



From dandrews at visi.com  Mon Nov  8 02:58:03 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 20:58:03 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
In-Reply-To: <1ABB157B12114278AB2601698B6B45F0@HumbertoAvila>
References: <SNT111-DS20BF81B277CA4AA50DF839BF4F0@phx.gbl>
	<1ABB157B12114278AB2601698B6B45F0@HumbertoAvila>
Message-ID: <auto-000176835407@mailfront2.g2host.com>

I am not sure what SPSS stands for but it is a complex program used 
to perform various statistical functions.

Dave

At 08:40 PM 11/7/2010, you wrote:
>Hello,
>What is SPSS?

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From clb5590 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  8 02:58:06 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 21:58:06 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
In-Reply-To: <1ABB157B12114278AB2601698B6B45F0@HumbertoAvila>
References: <SNT111-DS20BF81B277CA4AA50DF839BF4F0@phx.gbl>
	<1ABB157B12114278AB2601698B6B45F0@HumbertoAvila>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinYXaTzd2YDXi-qVa0x5H6R_9cOaO2AfV3EExR_@mail.gmail.com>

SPSS is a popular software that people doing research use to compute statistics.

That's great! For the most part at least. I know this is a wild guess,
but have you tried copying and pasting the output table into a word
document? If you have a scanner, maybe you could print it and scan it
although I don't know how the tables would turn out since knowing
where the numbers is very important. If it doesn't work, at least you
can do more than you could in the past, lol. Thanks for the update!
I'll definitely be trying NVDA with SPSS sometime in the future.

Cindy

On 11/7/10, Humberto Avila <hum4avila_71 at fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Hello,
> What is SPSS?
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Ian Perrault
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:10 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students
> Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
>
> Hi All
> Thank you for reccomending that I install NVDA. It works, for the most part,
> with SPSS version 18. But, the only part that I can't do, which is of course
> is the most important part, is read the output windows, which contains all
> of the results for the different operations. Have any of you had 100
> percent, at all, with SPSS? Any thoughts? I've been trying and my school
> disability office and instructor are not that helpful and they say that I
> absolutely need to take this course.
> Ian
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hum4avila_71%40fastm
> ail.fm
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
> database 5599 (20101107) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature
> database 5599 (20101107) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Cindy Bennett
uNC Wilmington Psychology major

clb5590 at gmail.com
828.989.5383


From tamwill009 at comcast.net  Mon Nov  8 03:11:21 2010
From: tamwill009 at comcast.net (Tamika Williams)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 21:11:21 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Website for student division
Message-ID: <60A007CEED9C42C1B6C01716EE7B8460@TamikaPC>

Hello All,

The students of Alabama are trying to get a website running for our division. We are currently thinking that we may go with Go Daddy, has anyone had any experience with this web host. Is there any other suggestions that you would give us on choosing another web host. If anyone would like to contact me offlist my e-mail addresses are below.   We would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions that you have.

Thanks,
Tamika Williams, AABS President
E-mail 1: tamwill009 at comcast.net
E-mail 2: tnw602 at jaguar1.usouthal.edu

From dandrews at visi.com  Mon Nov  8 03:22:54 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 21:22:54 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Website for student division
In-Reply-To: <60A007CEED9C42C1B6C01716EE7B8460@TamikaPC>
References: <60A007CEED9C42C1B6C01716EE7B8460@TamikaPC>
Message-ID: <auto-000176836585@mailfront2.g2host.com>

We can host it on the nfbnet server, if you wish, that way your only 
expense is registering the domain.

Dave

At 09:11 PM 11/7/2010, you wrote:
>Hello All,
>
>The students of Alabama are trying to get a website running for our 
>division. We are currently thinking that we may go with Go Daddy, 
>has anyone had any experience with this web host. Is there any other 
>suggestions that you would give us on choosing another web host. If 
>anyone would like to contact me offlist my e-mail addresses are 
>below.   We would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions that you have.
>
>Thanks,
>Tamika Williams, AABS President
>E-mail 1: tamwill009 at comcast.net
>E-mail 2: tnw602 at jaguar1.usouthal.edu

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From iperrault at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  8 03:36:04 2010
From: iperrault at hotmail.com (Ian Perrault)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 22:36:04 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
In-Reply-To: <1ABB157B12114278AB2601698B6B45F0@HumbertoAvila>
References: <SNT111-DS20BF81B277CA4AA50DF839BF4F0@phx.gbl>
	<1ABB157B12114278AB2601698B6B45F0@HumbertoAvila>
Message-ID: <SNT111-DS3A12AC48F7ED021EE1C8BBF4F0@phx.gbl>


        SpSS is a program that lets you analyze Statistics in different 
ways, and it is required in my statistics course. My school is not making 
any exceptions, even though I have gave 110 percent effort to make it work! 



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Mon Nov  8 03:59:34 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 22:59:34 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
References: <SNT111-DS20BF81B277CA4AA50DF839BF4F0@phx.gbl><1ABB157B12114278AB2601698B6B45F0@HumbertoAvila>
	<SNT111-DS3A12AC48F7ED021EE1C8BBF4F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <D1EA75E0EF24485F8C31D6BDE8CA89AC@Ashley>

Ian, while the school is not obligated to make exceptions for you to 
complete your work, they are required to make accomodations.  So if the 
program is inaccessible they have to provide that info in another way.  They 
should hire an assistant to be your reader/scribe or assign a teacher 
assistant, TA, to assist you.  They would read the screen and describe 
things; they would not be doing the work for you.

I'd say if you could accomplish the work in another program such as excell, 
then that is also a reasonable accomodation.

Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ian Perrault" <iperrault at hotmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 10:36 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA


>
>        SpSS is a program that lets you analyze Statistics in different 
> ways, and it is required in my statistics course. My school is not making 
> any exceptions, even though I have gave 110 percent effort to make it 
> work!
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net  Mon Nov  8 04:05:10 2010
From: brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net (Brian Hatgelakas)
Date: Sun, 07 Nov 2010 23:05:10 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Why are you even taking a bio lab?
Message-ID: <000c01cb7efa$24f0b670$9560c747@BRIAN>

What is your major?  Why are you taking a bio lab?  I'm glad I avoided sciences like this and am doing what I love working as a broadcaster and I am also a May 2010 college graduate.  I am so glad to be finished with school!

From iperrault at hotmail.com  Mon Nov  8 04:09:27 2010
From: iperrault at hotmail.com (Ian Perrault)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 23:09:27 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Why are you even taking a bio lab?
In-Reply-To: <000c01cb7efa$24f0b670$9560c747@BRIAN>
References: <000c01cb7efa$24f0b670$9560c747@BRIAN>
Message-ID: <SNT111-DS598AA7DDD88002B141429BF4F0@phx.gbl>

I'm majoring in Public Administration, thank god not Biology! It's just an 
Introduction to Statistical Analysis course, just basic Statistics, and we 
need this stupid program. I don't know why, because I'll probably never use 
it again! 



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Mon Nov  8 04:11:37 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini)
Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2010 20:11:37 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
References: <SNT111-DS20BF81B277CA4AA50DF839BF4F0@phx.gbl><1ABB157B12114278AB2601698B6B45F0@HumbertoAvila>
	<AANLkTinYXaTzd2YDXi-qVa0x5H6R_9cOaO2AfV3EExR_@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2EF58F60E3364728A49640C7EDF18A43@stanford.edu>

Do you have Kurzweil? This might not work, but you could do a screen 
capture, drop it in a word document, and then send the word document through 
the Kurzweil's virtual printer. Kurzweil usually holds the format of tables.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Cindy Bennett" <clb5590 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA


> SPSS is a popular software that people doing research use to compute 
> statistics.
>
> That's great! For the most part at least. I know this is a wild guess,
> but have you tried copying and pasting the output table into a word
> document? If you have a scanner, maybe you could print it and scan it
> although I don't know how the tables would turn out since knowing
> where the numbers is very important. If it doesn't work, at least you
> can do more than you could in the past, lol. Thanks for the update!
> I'll definitely be trying NVDA with SPSS sometime in the future.
>
> Cindy
>
> On 11/7/10, Humberto Avila <hum4avila_71 at fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> Hello,
>> What is SPSS?
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Ian Perrault
>> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:10 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students
>> Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
>>
>> Hi All
>> Thank you for reccomending that I install NVDA. It works, for the most 
>> part,
>> with SPSS version 18. But, the only part that I can't do, which is of 
>> course
>> is the most important part, is read the output windows, which contains 
>> all
>> of the results for the different operations. Have any of you had 100
>> percent, at all, with SPSS? Any thoughts? I've been trying and my school
>> disability office and instructor are not that helpful and they say that I
>> absolutely need to take this course.
>> Ian
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hum4avila_71%40fastm
>> ail.fm
>>
>>
>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>> signature
>> database 5599 (20101107) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>
>> http://www.eset.com
>>
>>
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>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>> signature
>> database 5599 (20101107) __________
>>
>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
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>> http://www.eset.com
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
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>>
>
>
> -- 
> Cindy Bennett
> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>
> clb5590 at gmail.com
> 828.989.5383
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From clb5590 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  8 05:01:53 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 00:01:53 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Why are you even taking a bio lab?
In-Reply-To: <SNT111-DS598AA7DDD88002B141429BF4F0@phx.gbl>
References: <000c01cb7efa$24f0b670$9560c747@BRIAN>
	<SNT111-DS598AA7DDD88002B141429BF4F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=L4dTcQUf=gSpwpSDDRrjOSojgZCzMXgdMmX5L@mail.gmail.com>

You might not use it again, but everyone going onto grad school will
be so thankful that they learned it. Even if they don't use that same
program, they'll at least have statistical software experience, and
that is better than nothing when you have to analyze your own data for
a thesis, but I understand how this process has been frustrating for
you.

And, even if someone is not majoring in the sciences but has an
interest in a class, then I don't think they should avoid it because
of blindness, but that goes into a whole other issue. I just thought I
would share a different opinion. I had a very positive experience with
biology.

Cindy

On 11/7/10, Ian Perrault <iperrault at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I'm majoring in Public Administration, thank god not Biology! It's just an
> Introduction to Statistical Analysis course, just basic Statistics, and we
> need this stupid program. I don't know why, because I'll probably never use
> it again!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Cindy Bennett
uNC Wilmington Psychology major

clb5590 at gmail.com
828.989.5383


From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com  Mon Nov  8 05:37:34 2010
From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 00:37:34 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Why are you even taking a bio lab?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=L4dTcQUf=gSpwpSDDRrjOSojgZCzMXgdMmX5L@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000c01cb7efa$24f0b670$9560c747@BRIAN>
	<SNT111-DS598AA7DDD88002B141429BF4F0@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTi=L4dTcQUf=gSpwpSDDRrjOSojgZCzMXgdMmX5L@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinxuPnRYMDhbxOmxDqyQFOdyygYWBXUG5Qm1RyO@mail.gmail.com>

I don't have much to say here. I certainly value the opinions of others, and
their right to have them, but speaking as a student who has been fighting
for access to Science, Technology, Engineering and Math courses at my own
university, and one who has been asked before why I don't simply switch to a
major that doesn't require such courses, or simply get through the ones I
need and avoid any other sciences, I have to say that it really does make me
sick to my stomach to see someone ask the *future* of the organized blind a
question about lab access and be met with a statement like the subject line
of this e-mail. I think it's because a good number of blind students feel
this way, because we're so quick to avoid potential access issues and let
someone else fight the good fight that anyone needs to fight to begin with.
I think this is, in part, why blind students can walk into Biology or
Chemistry or Physics labs across the country and be told that the lab
coordinator simply has no idea how they can possibly be successful in that
particular course. They ask theselves the same question asked here. Why
would this student even try to take this class if they can't see to do it
efficiently?

I'm sorry if you disagree with me... very sorry, in fact. I just can't stand
to watch blind people reach this particular dead end in their search for
access advice without making my two cents available.

As for the access issue itself, I agree with the person who suggested asking
very specific questions, though when you don't know what you're looking for,
it can sometimes be hard tot hink of which questions to ask. You might
consider making a list of the things you'd think you should know about,
size, color, movement patterns, etc, and show this to your professor. He or
she can likely let you know if you're missing some key piece of information
for your data.

-Jamie

On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:01 AM, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:

> You might not use it again, but everyone going onto grad school will
> be so thankful that they learned it. Even if they don't use that same
> program, they'll at least have statistical software experience, and
> that is better than nothing when you have to analyze your own data for
> a thesis, but I understand how this process has been frustrating for
> you.
>
> And, even if someone is not majoring in the sciences but has an
> interest in a class, then I don't think they should avoid it because
> of blindness, but that goes into a whole other issue. I just thought I
> would share a different opinion. I had a very positive experience with
> biology.
>
> Cindy
>
> On 11/7/10, Ian Perrault <iperrault at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm majoring in Public Administration, thank god not Biology! It's just
> an
> > Introduction to Statistical Analysis course, just basic Statistics, and
> we
> > need this stupid program. I don't know why, because I'll probably never
> use
> > it again!
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Cindy Bennett
> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>
> clb5590 at gmail.com
> 828.989.5383
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>

From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  8 14:18:22 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 09:18:22 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Why are you even taking a bio lab?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinxuPnRYMDhbxOmxDqyQFOdyygYWBXUG5Qm1RyO@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000c01cb7efa$24f0b670$9560c747@BRIAN>
	<SNT111-DS598AA7DDD88002B141429BF4F0@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTi=L4dTcQUf=gSpwpSDDRrjOSojgZCzMXgdMmX5L@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinxuPnRYMDhbxOmxDqyQFOdyygYWBXUG5Qm1RyO@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=0CDNn_YciqMDyLz7TxYzxJ5rODhbfYVz-2x7D@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
I think I'll throw my two cents in here. I am majoring in Special
Education, to go on to Graduate School for a Master's in Special
Education of the Blind. I plan on becoming a TVI in a public school
system. You might tell me "Why ae you going to take Biology?" I plan
on taking two Biology classes, and worse yet (in some people's
opinions), two courses in Astronomy, one of my absolute favourite
subjects. Just because accommodations have to be made and struggles
will occur doesn't mean a blind student should avoid those classes. I
love astronomy, but can only see light and colour, so should I not
take an astronomy class, which is traditionally graphic heavy?
Adaptations can be made, and the more of us that take these classes,
the more the classes will be accessible to us.

I'll give an example of adaptations: For Astronomy I plan on buying a
small LiteBrite. This is a board on which pegs are placed (I'm not
sure of the dimensions, but I think it's something like 30 by 30
pegs). Then, the switch is turned and the board lights up the pegs
(the board is opaque, so the light goes only in the pegs, which are
clear plastic in various colours). This is my tool for looking at
constellations, solar systems, solar flares, and all sorts of
astronomical phenomenae. This will require the assistance of a reader,
of course, who will place the (previously-made) pictures on the
LiteBrite and place the pegs in the right places to make the picture
visible to me appropriately (I can also feel the pegs for a tactile
input). Then, the pictures can be placed in  a folder with a Braille
label of what they are and/or a Brailled description of the picture.
For studying, I can then take the picture out with the holes already
prepared, place it on the board, and put the pegs in myself based on
the already existing holes.

The other thing I plan on using is Wikisticks. Most of you know what
these are, flexible sticks of various colours that can be shaped into
most anything, kinda like pipe cleaners but without the fuzziness,
which can distract tactilely. The wikisticks will be used for shaping
quick illustrations (A circle hre, with a line extending out to show a
solar flare, or a large circle here and little circles showing where
the planets are in that solar system. They could even show an
elliptical or spiral solar system's basic shape.

I wish all the textbook's illustrations could be made tactile like
those in "Touch the Sun" and the other books in that series, as I
absolutely LOVE those books, and have read all but the last one (I
haven't gotten my hands on a copy of that one yet, which I don't
remember the name of).

The point is, science is important to everyone and blind students
should not avoid scinece classes just because they know it'll be more
difficult. The more of us that take science classes, and the more the
NFB works toward access to science and math classes for the blind, the
better it'll get. There are people working hard to make scinece
classes more accessible to the blind...take a look at the latest
laboratory tools now available. And what about the person who was just
on here asking about accessible games because his group is working on
an accessible virtual dissection? And at NC State, they are working
hard to produce a full-page refreshable Braille display. When that's
made, Braille pictures will be able to be seen with eBraille,
illustrating everything from a helicopter to the Eiffel Tower to the
differences in different rays (gamma, radio, micro, etc).

Science and Math are very important to everyone, not just the sighted,
and we have to work hard to make sure it's available to us. Let's not
ask again "Why are you even taking a biology class?" You might as well
ask why someone is taking a computer class (computers weren't always
all that accessible) or why someone is take a Communications class (a
large part of Interpersonal Communications class here is Non-verbal
communication...which most people with visual impairments have trouble
seeing!). Or we might even ask "Why are you even going to college?"

My rant,

On 11/8/10, Jamie Principato <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't have much to say here. I certainly value the opinions of others, and
> their right to have them, but speaking as a student who has been fighting
> for access to Science, Technology, Engineering and Math courses at my own
> university, and one who has been asked before why I don't simply switch to a
> major that doesn't require such courses, or simply get through the ones I
> need and avoid any other sciences, I have to say that it really does make me
> sick to my stomach to see someone ask the *future* of the organized blind a
> question about lab access and be met with a statement like the subject line
> of this e-mail. I think it's because a good number of blind students feel
> this way, because we're so quick to avoid potential access issues and let
> someone else fight the good fight that anyone needs to fight to begin with.
> I think this is, in part, why blind students can walk into Biology or
> Chemistry or Physics labs across the country and be told that the lab
> coordinator simply has no idea how they can possibly be successful in that
> particular course. They ask theselves the same question asked here. Why
> would this student even try to take this class if they can't see to do it
> efficiently?
>
> I'm sorry if you disagree with me... very sorry, in fact. I just can't stand
> to watch blind people reach this particular dead end in their search for
> access advice without making my two cents available.
>
> As for the access issue itself, I agree with the person who suggested asking
> very specific questions, though when you don't know what you're looking for,
> it can sometimes be hard tot hink of which questions to ask. You might
> consider making a list of the things you'd think you should know about,
> size, color, movement patterns, etc, and show this to your professor. He or
> she can likely let you know if you're missing some key piece of information
> for your data.
>
> -Jamie
>
> On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:01 AM, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> You might not use it again, but everyone going onto grad school will
>> be so thankful that they learned it. Even if they don't use that same
>> program, they'll at least have statistical software experience, and
>> that is better than nothing when you have to analyze your own data for
>> a thesis, but I understand how this process has been frustrating for
>> you.
>>
>> And, even if someone is not majoring in the sciences but has an
>> interest in a class, then I don't think they should avoid it because
>> of blindness, but that goes into a whole other issue. I just thought I
>> would share a different opinion. I had a very positive experience with
>> biology.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On 11/7/10, Ian Perrault <iperrault at hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > I'm majoring in Public Administration, thank god not Biology! It's just
>> an
>> > Introduction to Statistical Analysis course, just basic Statistics, and
>> we
>> > need this stupid program. I don't know why, because I'll probably never
>> use
>> > it again!
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > nabs-l mailing list
>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> > nabs-l:
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cindy Bennett
>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>>
>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>> 828.989.5383
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From jty727 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  8 15:12:09 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 10:12:09 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Why are you even taking a bio lab?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=0CDNn_YciqMDyLz7TxYzxJ5rODhbfYVz-2x7D@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000c01cb7efa$24f0b670$9560c747@BRIAN>
	<SNT111-DS598AA7DDD88002B141429BF4F0@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTi=L4dTcQUf=gSpwpSDDRrjOSojgZCzMXgdMmX5L@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinxuPnRYMDhbxOmxDqyQFOdyygYWBXUG5Qm1RyO@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=0CDNn_YciqMDyLz7TxYzxJ5rODhbfYVz-2x7D@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik8uh9VdB8+APnUqXKXUnQoFYDNgG3caQjb8Pad@mail.gmail.com>

Jewel,
I definitely agree with what you are saying.  I wanted to let you know
I'm a Junior at a four year college.  I transfered from a Community
College this past fall.  I took 4 science classes which 2 of them were
an Astronomy class and an Astronomy lab.  For the lab I was the
professor's first legally blind student.  That is another part I would
like to point out.  It can be hard to believe, but definitely possible
that we(any visually impaired student) are the professor's first ever
visually impaired student.  For the lab it was interesting because at
first he just like stated before he didn't really know how to make the
course adaptible for me.  Well, we sort of did the peg board thing.
He took a piece of cardboard and by using pushpins he inserted them
into the board.  He then put rubber bands to illustrate the span of
the light rays.  We were doing an experiment which delt with Red Shift
at the time.  So, I definitely agree with you it can be done all it
takes is education on both ends, haha.
Justin

On 11/8/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I think I'll throw my two cents in here. I am majoring in Special
> Education, to go on to Graduate School for a Master's in Special
> Education of the Blind. I plan on becoming a TVI in a public school
> system. You might tell me "Why ae you going to take Biology?" I plan
> on taking two Biology classes, and worse yet (in some people's
> opinions), two courses in Astronomy, one of my absolute favourite
> subjects. Just because accommodations have to be made and struggles
> will occur doesn't mean a blind student should avoid those classes. I
> love astronomy, but can only see light and colour, so should I not
> take an astronomy class, which is traditionally graphic heavy?
> Adaptations can be made, and the more of us that take these classes,
> the more the classes will be accessible to us.
>
> I'll give an example of adaptations: For Astronomy I plan on buying a
> small LiteBrite. This is a board on which pegs are placed (I'm not
> sure of the dimensions, but I think it's something like 30 by 30
> pegs). Then, the switch is turned and the board lights up the pegs
> (the board is opaque, so the light goes only in the pegs, which are
> clear plastic in various colours). This is my tool for looking at
> constellations, solar systems, solar flares, and all sorts of
> astronomical phenomenae. This will require the assistance of a reader,
> of course, who will place the (previously-made) pictures on the
> LiteBrite and place the pegs in the right places to make the picture
> visible to me appropriately (I can also feel the pegs for a tactile
> input). Then, the pictures can be placed in  a folder with a Braille
> label of what they are and/or a Brailled description of the picture.
> For studying, I can then take the picture out with the holes already
> prepared, place it on the board, and put the pegs in myself based on
> the already existing holes.
>
> The other thing I plan on using is Wikisticks. Most of you know what
> these are, flexible sticks of various colours that can be shaped into
> most anything, kinda like pipe cleaners but without the fuzziness,
> which can distract tactilely. The wikisticks will be used for shaping
> quick illustrations (A circle hre, with a line extending out to show a
> solar flare, or a large circle here and little circles showing where
> the planets are in that solar system. They could even show an
> elliptical or spiral solar system's basic shape.
>
> I wish all the textbook's illustrations could be made tactile like
> those in "Touch the Sun" and the other books in that series, as I
> absolutely LOVE those books, and have read all but the last one (I
> haven't gotten my hands on a copy of that one yet, which I don't
> remember the name of).
>
> The point is, science is important to everyone and blind students
> should not avoid scinece classes just because they know it'll be more
> difficult. The more of us that take science classes, and the more the
> NFB works toward access to science and math classes for the blind, the
> better it'll get. There are people working hard to make scinece
> classes more accessible to the blind...take a look at the latest
> laboratory tools now available. And what about the person who was just
> on here asking about accessible games because his group is working on
> an accessible virtual dissection? And at NC State, they are working
> hard to produce a full-page refreshable Braille display. When that's
> made, Braille pictures will be able to be seen with eBraille,
> illustrating everything from a helicopter to the Eiffel Tower to the
> differences in different rays (gamma, radio, micro, etc).
>
> Science and Math are very important to everyone, not just the sighted,
> and we have to work hard to make sure it's available to us. Let's not
> ask again "Why are you even taking a biology class?" You might as well
> ask why someone is taking a computer class (computers weren't always
> all that accessible) or why someone is take a Communications class (a
> large part of Interpersonal Communications class here is Non-verbal
> communication...which most people with visual impairments have trouble
> seeing!). Or we might even ask "Why are you even going to college?"
>
> My rant,
>
> On 11/8/10, Jamie Principato <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't have much to say here. I certainly value the opinions of others,
>> and
>> their right to have them, but speaking as a student who has been fighting
>> for access to Science, Technology, Engineering and Math courses at my own
>> university, and one who has been asked before why I don't simply switch to
>> a
>> major that doesn't require such courses, or simply get through the ones I
>> need and avoid any other sciences, I have to say that it really does make
>> me
>> sick to my stomach to see someone ask the *future* of the organized blind
>> a
>> question about lab access and be met with a statement like the subject
>> line
>> of this e-mail. I think it's because a good number of blind students feel
>> this way, because we're so quick to avoid potential access issues and let
>> someone else fight the good fight that anyone needs to fight to begin
>> with.
>> I think this is, in part, why blind students can walk into Biology or
>> Chemistry or Physics labs across the country and be told that the lab
>> coordinator simply has no idea how they can possibly be successful in that
>> particular course. They ask theselves the same question asked here. Why
>> would this student even try to take this class if they can't see to do it
>> efficiently?
>>
>> I'm sorry if you disagree with me... very sorry, in fact. I just can't
>> stand
>> to watch blind people reach this particular dead end in their search for
>> access advice without making my two cents available.
>>
>> As for the access issue itself, I agree with the person who suggested
>> asking
>> very specific questions, though when you don't know what you're looking
>> for,
>> it can sometimes be hard tot hink of which questions to ask. You might
>> consider making a list of the things you'd think you should know about,
>> size, color, movement patterns, etc, and show this to your professor. He
>> or
>> she can likely let you know if you're missing some key piece of
>> information
>> for your data.
>>
>> -Jamie
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:01 AM, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You might not use it again, but everyone going onto grad school will
>>> be so thankful that they learned it. Even if they don't use that same
>>> program, they'll at least have statistical software experience, and
>>> that is better than nothing when you have to analyze your own data for
>>> a thesis, but I understand how this process has been frustrating for
>>> you.
>>>
>>> And, even if someone is not majoring in the sciences but has an
>>> interest in a class, then I don't think they should avoid it because
>>> of blindness, but that goes into a whole other issue. I just thought I
>>> would share a different opinion. I had a very positive experience with
>>> biology.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> On 11/7/10, Ian Perrault <iperrault at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> > I'm majoring in Public Administration, thank god not Biology! It's just
>>> an
>>> > Introduction to Statistical Analysis course, just basic Statistics, and
>>> we
>>> > need this stupid program. I don't know why, because I'll probably never
>>> use
>>> > it again!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > nabs-l mailing list
>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> > nabs-l:
>>> >
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cindy Bennett
>>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>>>
>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>> 828.989.5383
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From cbuckley at pdx.edu  Mon Nov  8 15:33:26 2010
From: cbuckley at pdx.edu (Chrys Buckley)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 07:33:26 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Why are you even taking a bio lab?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=0CDNn_YciqMDyLz7TxYzxJ5rODhbfYVz-2x7D@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000c01cb7efa$24f0b670$9560c747@BRIAN>
	<SNT111-DS598AA7DDD88002B141429BF4F0@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTi=L4dTcQUf=gSpwpSDDRrjOSojgZCzMXgdMmX5L@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinxuPnRYMDhbxOmxDqyQFOdyygYWBXUG5Qm1RyO@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=0CDNn_YciqMDyLz7TxYzxJ5rODhbfYVz-2x7D@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20101108073326.72257a71ldzbyf5y@webmail.pdx.edu>


I want to second the opinions of Cindy, Jamie and Jewel here. I don't  
think science should be avoided just because of blindness. I am  
actually a biology major and so personally, I love the sciences. I  
have also taken a fair amount of physics and astronomy, before I  
figured out that biology is what I really wanted to do. I think  
sometimes, some labs can seem more intimidating in terms of access and  
blindness issues than they really are.

For example, I was very nervous about taking Anatomy & Physiology this  
year, thinking it was going to be heavily visual. I mean, that is what  
you always hear about A&P. Well, so far anyway, it hasn't been a  
problem at all! For the first section of the class we learned all the  
bones and their features by using plastic and real bones, so that  
ended up being more tactile than visual. For tests, we had to identify  
bones or identify features of bones indicated by tape, which again was  
very tactile. And there were skeletons in the classroom to learn on as  
well. Now we are learning the muscle system and we are doing that on  
cadavers, which I believe some students are doing visually, but this  
again is really tactile. So the point is that this science lab that I  
spent all this energy worrying about how visual it would be turns out  
(so far, knock on wood) to be a class with almost no access issues at  
all. Just b/c most people do it visually, I think that other ways of  
doing it were just never thought about by most people.

Anyway, all I can say is I really love the sciences and encourage  
anyone who wants to or has to take a science class to take it and not  
avoid it (or assume that others will or should) just because of  
blindness.

Chrys



Quoting "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>:

> Hi,
> I think I'll throw my two cents in here. I am majoring in Special
> Education, to go on to Graduate School for a Master's in Special
> Education of the Blind. I plan on becoming a TVI in a public school
> system. You might tell me "Why ae you going to take Biology?" I plan
> on taking two Biology classes, and worse yet (in some people's
> opinions), two courses in Astronomy, one of my absolute favourite
> subjects. Just because accommodations have to be made and struggles
> will occur doesn't mean a blind student should avoid those classes. I
> love astronomy, but can only see light and colour, so should I not
> take an astronomy class, which is traditionally graphic heavy?
> Adaptations can be made, and the more of us that take these classes,
> the more the classes will be accessible to us.
>
> I'll give an example of adaptations: For Astronomy I plan on buying a
> small LiteBrite. This is a board on which pegs are placed (I'm not
> sure of the dimensions, but I think it's something like 30 by 30
> pegs). Then, the switch is turned and the board lights up the pegs
> (the board is opaque, so the light goes only in the pegs, which are
> clear plastic in various colours). This is my tool for looking at
> constellations, solar systems, solar flares, and all sorts of
> astronomical phenomenae. This will require the assistance of a reader,
> of course, who will place the (previously-made) pictures on the
> LiteBrite and place the pegs in the right places to make the picture
> visible to me appropriately (I can also feel the pegs for a tactile
> input). Then, the pictures can be placed in  a folder with a Braille
> label of what they are and/or a Brailled description of the picture.
> For studying, I can then take the picture out with the holes already
> prepared, place it on the board, and put the pegs in myself based on
> the already existing holes.
>
> The other thing I plan on using is Wikisticks. Most of you know what
> these are, flexible sticks of various colours that can be shaped into
> most anything, kinda like pipe cleaners but without the fuzziness,
> which can distract tactilely. The wikisticks will be used for shaping
> quick illustrations (A circle hre, with a line extending out to show a
> solar flare, or a large circle here and little circles showing where
> the planets are in that solar system. They could even show an
> elliptical or spiral solar system's basic shape.
>
> I wish all the textbook's illustrations could be made tactile like
> those in "Touch the Sun" and the other books in that series, as I
> absolutely LOVE those books, and have read all but the last one (I
> haven't gotten my hands on a copy of that one yet, which I don't
> remember the name of).
>
> The point is, science is important to everyone and blind students
> should not avoid scinece classes just because they know it'll be more
> difficult. The more of us that take science classes, and the more the
> NFB works toward access to science and math classes for the blind, the
> better it'll get. There are people working hard to make scinece
> classes more accessible to the blind...take a look at the latest
> laboratory tools now available. And what about the person who was just
> on here asking about accessible games because his group is working on
> an accessible virtual dissection? And at NC State, they are working
> hard to produce a full-page refreshable Braille display. When that's
> made, Braille pictures will be able to be seen with eBraille,
> illustrating everything from a helicopter to the Eiffel Tower to the
> differences in different rays (gamma, radio, micro, etc).
>
> Science and Math are very important to everyone, not just the sighted,
> and we have to work hard to make sure it's available to us. Let's not
> ask again "Why are you even taking a biology class?" You might as well
> ask why someone is taking a computer class (computers weren't always
> all that accessible) or why someone is take a Communications class (a
> large part of Interpersonal Communications class here is Non-verbal
> communication...which most people with visual impairments have trouble
> seeing!). Or we might even ask "Why are you even going to college?"
>
> My rant,
>
> On 11/8/10, Jamie Principato <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't have much to say here. I certainly value the opinions of others, and
>> their right to have them, but speaking as a student who has been fighting
>> for access to Science, Technology, Engineering and Math courses at my own
>> university, and one who has been asked before why I don't simply switch to a
>> major that doesn't require such courses, or simply get through the ones I
>> need and avoid any other sciences, I have to say that it really does make me
>> sick to my stomach to see someone ask the *future* of the organized blind a
>> question about lab access and be met with a statement like the subject line
>> of this e-mail. I think it's because a good number of blind students feel
>> this way, because we're so quick to avoid potential access issues and let
>> someone else fight the good fight that anyone needs to fight to begin with.
>> I think this is, in part, why blind students can walk into Biology or
>> Chemistry or Physics labs across the country and be told that the lab
>> coordinator simply has no idea how they can possibly be successful in that
>> particular course. They ask theselves the same question asked here. Why
>> would this student even try to take this class if they can't see to do it
>> efficiently?
>>
>> I'm sorry if you disagree with me... very sorry, in fact. I just can't stand
>> to watch blind people reach this particular dead end in their search for
>> access advice without making my two cents available.
>>
>> As for the access issue itself, I agree with the person who suggested asking
>> very specific questions, though when you don't know what you're looking for,
>> it can sometimes be hard tot hink of which questions to ask. You might
>> consider making a list of the things you'd think you should know about,
>> size, color, movement patterns, etc, and show this to your professor. He or
>> she can likely let you know if you're missing some key piece of information
>> for your data.
>>
>> -Jamie
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:01 AM, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> You might not use it again, but everyone going onto grad school will
>>> be so thankful that they learned it. Even if they don't use that same
>>> program, they'll at least have statistical software experience, and
>>> that is better than nothing when you have to analyze your own data for
>>> a thesis, but I understand how this process has been frustrating for
>>> you.
>>>
>>> And, even if someone is not majoring in the sciences but has an
>>> interest in a class, then I don't think they should avoid it because
>>> of blindness, but that goes into a whole other issue. I just thought I
>>> would share a different opinion. I had a very positive experience with
>>> biology.
>>>
>>> Cindy
>>>
>>> On 11/7/10, Ian Perrault <iperrault at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> > I'm majoring in Public Administration, thank god not Biology! It's just
>>> an
>>> > Introduction to Statistical Analysis course, just basic Statistics, and
>>> we
>>> > need this stupid program. I don't know why, because I'll probably never
>>> use
>>> > it again!
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > nabs-l mailing list
>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> > nabs-l:
>>> >
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cindy Bennett
>>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>>>
>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>> 828.989.5383
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cbuckley%40pdx.edu
>
>



http://chrysanthymum.blogspot.com





From erica_fbd at abisee.com  Mon Nov  8 16:47:47 2010
From: erica_fbd at abisee.com (Erica)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 11:47:47 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] ABiSee Black Friday Sale
Message-ID: <4CD829B3.5090601@abisee.com>


 
 
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or call ABiSee toll free at 1- 800-681-5909.
 
Please forward this email to blind and low vision students, parents, 
educators, and others who would benefit from this exclusive one day sale.
 


From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Mon Nov  8 20:59:20 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 15:59:20 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Why are you even taking a bio lab?
In-Reply-To: <20101108073326.72257a71ldzbyf5y@webmail.pdx.edu>
References: <000c01cb7efa$24f0b670$9560c747@BRIAN>
	<SNT111-DS598AA7DDD88002B141429BF4F0@phx.gbl>
	<AANLkTi=L4dTcQUf=gSpwpSDDRrjOSojgZCzMXgdMmX5L@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinxuPnRYMDhbxOmxDqyQFOdyygYWBXUG5Qm1RyO@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=0CDNn_YciqMDyLz7TxYzxJ5rODhbfYVz-2x7D@mail.gmail.com>
	<20101108073326.72257a71ldzbyf5y@webmail.pdx.edu>
Message-ID: <62E351257B574C2A8D874FBEFB7E0957@AnitaAdkinsPC>

I wanted to reply to voice my agreement on this issue.  Blind people can do 
science.  Rather than focusing on how one can't do something, it may be a 
better idea to think of how a particular task can be accomplished using the 
five senses.  I think that when we automatically think of something as a 
task that is accomplished by vision, we leave the other senses out, but if 
we could think of the task and how to do it using all the senses, we are 
more likely to realize it can be done in multiple ways.  Imagine if, before 
the first microscope was invented, scientists said "Well, we can't cure 
disease x; after all, we can't see it."  The microscope is an alternative 
technique to vision, and it is one way of seeing what humans cannot. 
Likewise, other tools can be used to "see" for us, such as a cane to inform 
us about obstacles in front of us, or raised lines to help us visualize a 
map.  So I say do science; ask a scribe to use a raised line drawing kit to 
reproduce what he/she sees under the microscope in an enlarged version, ask 
questions about movement, size, shape, color, etc.  Don't give up just 
because it seems impossible.  Many people might be dead today if those who 
uncovered the cures to some diseases them hadn't kept finding new ways to 
discover information, such as microscopes, etc.  It is okay if you aren't 
interested in science, but just because you may not be interested doesn't 
mean you should discourage others.  All of us have different interests and 
talents; that's what makes this world so interesting and enables us to 
create a successful and productive society.  Just my two cents.  Anita
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chrys Buckley" <cbuckley at pdx.edu>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Why are you even taking a bio lab?


>
> I want to second the opinions of Cindy, Jamie and Jewel here. I don't 
> think science should be avoided just because of blindness. I am  actually 
> a biology major and so personally, I love the sciences. I  have also taken 
> a fair amount of physics and astronomy, before I  figured out that biology 
> is what I really wanted to do. I think  sometimes, some labs can seem more 
> intimidating in terms of access and  blindness issues than they really 
> are.
>
> For example, I was very nervous about taking Anatomy & Physiology this 
> year, thinking it was going to be heavily visual. I mean, that is what 
> you always hear about A&P. Well, so far anyway, it hasn't been a  problem 
> at all! For the first section of the class we learned all the  bones and 
> their features by using plastic and real bones, so that  ended up being 
> more tactile than visual. For tests, we had to identify  bones or identify 
> features of bones indicated by tape, which again was  very tactile. And 
> there were skeletons in the classroom to learn on as  well. Now we are 
> learning the muscle system and we are doing that on  cadavers, which I 
> believe some students are doing visually, but this  again is really 
> tactile. So the point is that this science lab that I  spent all this 
> energy worrying about how visual it would be turns out  (so far, knock on 
> wood) to be a class with almost no access issues at  all. Just b/c most 
> people do it visually, I think that other ways of  doing it were just 
> never thought about by most people.
>
> Anyway, all I can say is I really love the sciences and encourage  anyone 
> who wants to or has to take a science class to take it and not  avoid it 
> (or assume that others will or should) just because of  blindness.
>
> Chrys
>
>
>
> Quoting "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>:
>
>> Hi,
>> I think I'll throw my two cents in here. I am majoring in Special
>> Education, to go on to Graduate School for a Master's in Special
>> Education of the Blind. I plan on becoming a TVI in a public school
>> system. You might tell me "Why ae you going to take Biology?" I plan
>> on taking two Biology classes, and worse yet (in some people's
>> opinions), two courses in Astronomy, one of my absolute favourite
>> subjects. Just because accommodations have to be made and struggles
>> will occur doesn't mean a blind student should avoid those classes. I
>> love astronomy, but can only see light and colour, so should I not
>> take an astronomy class, which is traditionally graphic heavy?
>> Adaptations can be made, and the more of us that take these classes,
>> the more the classes will be accessible to us.
>>
>> I'll give an example of adaptations: For Astronomy I plan on buying a
>> small LiteBrite. This is a board on which pegs are placed (I'm not
>> sure of the dimensions, but I think it's something like 30 by 30
>> pegs). Then, the switch is turned and the board lights up the pegs
>> (the board is opaque, so the light goes only in the pegs, which are
>> clear plastic in various colours). This is my tool for looking at
>> constellations, solar systems, solar flares, and all sorts of
>> astronomical phenomenae. This will require the assistance of a reader,
>> of course, who will place the (previously-made) pictures on the
>> LiteBrite and place the pegs in the right places to make the picture
>> visible to me appropriately (I can also feel the pegs for a tactile
>> input). Then, the pictures can be placed in  a folder with a Braille
>> label of what they are and/or a Brailled description of the picture.
>> For studying, I can then take the picture out with the holes already
>> prepared, place it on the board, and put the pegs in myself based on
>> the already existing holes.
>>
>> The other thing I plan on using is Wikisticks. Most of you know what
>> these are, flexible sticks of various colours that can be shaped into
>> most anything, kinda like pipe cleaners but without the fuzziness,
>> which can distract tactilely. The wikisticks will be used for shaping
>> quick illustrations (A circle hre, with a line extending out to show a
>> solar flare, or a large circle here and little circles showing where
>> the planets are in that solar system. They could even show an
>> elliptical or spiral solar system's basic shape.
>>
>> I wish all the textbook's illustrations could be made tactile like
>> those in "Touch the Sun" and the other books in that series, as I
>> absolutely LOVE those books, and have read all but the last one (I
>> haven't gotten my hands on a copy of that one yet, which I don't
>> remember the name of).
>>
>> The point is, science is important to everyone and blind students
>> should not avoid scinece classes just because they know it'll be more
>> difficult. The more of us that take science classes, and the more the
>> NFB works toward access to science and math classes for the blind, the
>> better it'll get. There are people working hard to make scinece
>> classes more accessible to the blind...take a look at the latest
>> laboratory tools now available. And what about the person who was just
>> on here asking about accessible games because his group is working on
>> an accessible virtual dissection? And at NC State, they are working
>> hard to produce a full-page refreshable Braille display. When that's
>> made, Braille pictures will be able to be seen with eBraille,
>> illustrating everything from a helicopter to the Eiffel Tower to the
>> differences in different rays (gamma, radio, micro, etc).
>>
>> Science and Math are very important to everyone, not just the sighted,
>> and we have to work hard to make sure it's available to us. Let's not
>> ask again "Why are you even taking a biology class?" You might as well
>> ask why someone is taking a computer class (computers weren't always
>> all that accessible) or why someone is take a Communications class (a
>> large part of Interpersonal Communications class here is Non-verbal
>> communication...which most people with visual impairments have trouble
>> seeing!). Or we might even ask "Why are you even going to college?"
>>
>> My rant,
>>
>> On 11/8/10, Jamie Principato <blackbyrdfly at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I don't have much to say here. I certainly value the opinions of others, 
>>> and
>>> their right to have them, but speaking as a student who has been 
>>> fighting
>>> for access to Science, Technology, Engineering and Math courses at my 
>>> own
>>> university, and one who has been asked before why I don't simply switch 
>>> to a
>>> major that doesn't require such courses, or simply get through the ones 
>>> I
>>> need and avoid any other sciences, I have to say that it really does 
>>> make me
>>> sick to my stomach to see someone ask the *future* of the organized 
>>> blind a
>>> question about lab access and be met with a statement like the subject 
>>> line
>>> of this e-mail. I think it's because a good number of blind students 
>>> feel
>>> this way, because we're so quick to avoid potential access issues and 
>>> let
>>> someone else fight the good fight that anyone needs to fight to begin 
>>> with.
>>> I think this is, in part, why blind students can walk into Biology or
>>> Chemistry or Physics labs across the country and be told that the lab
>>> coordinator simply has no idea how they can possibly be successful in 
>>> that
>>> particular course. They ask theselves the same question asked here. Why
>>> would this student even try to take this class if they can't see to do 
>>> it
>>> efficiently?
>>>
>>> I'm sorry if you disagree with me... very sorry, in fact. I just can't 
>>> stand
>>> to watch blind people reach this particular dead end in their search for
>>> access advice without making my two cents available.
>>>
>>> As for the access issue itself, I agree with the person who suggested 
>>> asking
>>> very specific questions, though when you don't know what you're looking 
>>> for,
>>> it can sometimes be hard tot hink of which questions to ask. You might
>>> consider making a list of the things you'd think you should know about,
>>> size, color, movement patterns, etc, and show this to your professor. He 
>>> or
>>> she can likely let you know if you're missing some key piece of 
>>> information
>>> for your data.
>>>
>>> -Jamie
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 12:01 AM, Cindy Bennett <clb5590 at gmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You might not use it again, but everyone going onto grad school will
>>>> be so thankful that they learned it. Even if they don't use that same
>>>> program, they'll at least have statistical software experience, and
>>>> that is better than nothing when you have to analyze your own data for
>>>> a thesis, but I understand how this process has been frustrating for
>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>> And, even if someone is not majoring in the sciences but has an
>>>> interest in a class, then I don't think they should avoid it because
>>>> of blindness, but that goes into a whole other issue. I just thought I
>>>> would share a different opinion. I had a very positive experience with
>>>> biology.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy
>>>>
>>>> On 11/7/10, Ian Perrault <iperrault at hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>> > I'm majoring in Public Administration, thank god not Biology! It's 
>>>> > just
>>>> an
>>>> > Introduction to Statistical Analysis course, just basic Statistics, 
>>>> > and
>>>> we
>>>> > need this stupid program. I don't know why, because I'll probably 
>>>> > never
>>>> use
>>>> > it again!
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>> > nabs-l mailing list
>>>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> > nabs-l:
>>>> >
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Cindy Bennett
>>>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>>>>
>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>>>> 828.989.5383
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/cbuckley%40pdx.edu
>>
>>
>
>
>
> http://chrysanthymum.blogspot.com
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  8 21:18:48 2010
From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:18:48 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
In-Reply-To: <2EF58F60E3364728A49640C7EDF18A43@stanford.edu>
References: <SNT111-DS20BF81B277CA4AA50DF839BF4F0@phx.gbl>
	<1ABB157B12114278AB2601698B6B45F0@HumbertoAvila>
	<AANLkTinYXaTzd2YDXi-qVa0x5H6R_9cOaO2AfV3EExR_@mail.gmail.com>
	<2EF58F60E3364728A49640C7EDF18A43@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimo+JjHumzPFN9GPa-XYCyYxu8N3zGreRs6sVon@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, Ian,
  I'm currently using SPSS 16 and am not familiar with the specific
features of version 18, but I have had great success with the output
files by exporting them into Excel format. The tables are  preserved
perfectly, and JAWS or any other screen reader will read the
spreadsheet without any problems (except for graphs, of course). I
don't know if this feature is still available in version 18, but do
check in the menus to see if there is an Export option. Good luck!
   Katie


On 11/7/10, Nicole B. Torcolini <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
> Do you have Kurzweil? This might not work, but you could do a screen
> capture, drop it in a word document, and then send the word document through
> the Kurzweil's virtual printer. Kurzweil usually holds the format of tables.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cindy Bennett" <clb5590 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 6:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
>
>
>> SPSS is a popular software that people doing research use to compute
>> statistics.
>>
>> That's great! For the most part at least. I know this is a wild guess,
>> but have you tried copying and pasting the output table into a word
>> document? If you have a scanner, maybe you could print it and scan it
>> although I don't know how the tables would turn out since knowing
>> where the numbers is very important. If it doesn't work, at least you
>> can do more than you could in the past, lol. Thanks for the update!
>> I'll definitely be trying NVDA with SPSS sometime in the future.
>>
>> Cindy
>>
>> On 11/7/10, Humberto Avila <hum4avila_71 at fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>> Hello,
>>> What is SPSS?
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Ian Perrault
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 5:10 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
>>>
>>> Hi All
>>> Thank you for reccomending that I install NVDA. It works, for the most
>>> part,
>>> with SPSS version 18. But, the only part that I can't do, which is of
>>> course
>>> is the most important part, is read the output windows, which contains
>>> all
>>> of the results for the different operations. Have any of you had 100
>>> percent, at all, with SPSS? Any thoughts? I've been trying and my school
>>> disability office and instructor are not that helpful and they say that I
>>> absolutely need to take this course.
>>> Ian
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hum4avila_71%40fastm
>>> ail.fm
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>> signature
>>> database 5599 (20101107) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus
>>> signature
>>> database 5599 (20101107) __________
>>>
>>> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>>>
>>> http://www.eset.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cindy Bennett
>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major
>>
>> clb5590 at gmail.com
>> 828.989.5383
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com
>


From alexandera.castillo at gmail.com  Mon Nov  8 21:36:41 2010
From: alexandera.castillo at gmail.com (Alexander Castillo)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:36:41 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS and NVDA
Message-ID: <AANLkTinkEHb+YZbFZbB2QAzTPP13BtHeBJZ5ontqjP9A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all, I am not sure if it has been already mentioned, but you can
view your results from spss in word. I think you can copy and paste,
and there might also be an export feature to directly send your
results to a word document.

There is another program called R, which does statistical analysis and
is supposed to be almost entirely accessible. I have never used it.
It's another option.

http://www.r-project.org/

Thanks for reading,
Alex


From tamwill009 at comcast.net  Mon Nov  8 23:10:07 2010
From: tamwill009 at comcast.net (Tamika Williams)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 17:10:07 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Website for student division
In-Reply-To: <auto-000176836585@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <60A007CEED9C42C1B6C01716EE7B8460@TamikaPC>
	<auto-000176836585@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <C89D7CDC7BC34883B9FC001F13244094@TamikaPC>

Thanks Dave,

This sounds like a great idea especially for a group of beginners whose 
trying to build a website. I do have a couple of questions.

1. Will we have the oppurtunity to keep the site updated ourselves or will 
we send the info to you?
2. Will the officers be able to have their own e-mail addresses?

These are the couple of questions that comes to mind, but if you can tell me 
anything else we might neede to consider thinking about when going with this 
server verses any other one, please let me know.

Thanks,
Tamika Williams
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Website for student division


> We can host it on the nfbnet server, if you wish, that way your only 
> expense is registering the domain.
>
> Dave
>
> At 09:11 PM 11/7/2010, you wrote:
>>Hello All,
>>
>>The students of Alabama are trying to get a website running for our 
>>division. We are currently thinking that we may go with Go Daddy, has 
>>anyone had any experience with this web host. Is there any other 
>>suggestions that you would give us on choosing another web host. If anyone 
>>would like to contact me offlist my e-mail addresses are below.   We would 
>>greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions that you have.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Tamika Williams, AABS President
>>E-mail 1: tamwill009 at comcast.net
>>E-mail 2: tnw602 at jaguar1.usouthal.edu
>
>                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
> Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net 



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Mon Nov  8 23:29:24 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 18:29:24 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Website for student division
In-Reply-To: <C89D7CDC7BC34883B9FC001F13244094@TamikaPC>
References: <60A007CEED9C42C1B6C01716EE7B8460@TamikaPC>
	<auto-000176836585@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<C89D7CDC7BC34883B9FC001F13244094@TamikaPC>
Message-ID: <A76811C6-B486-463A-95D2-2F0B8AA6A017@mac.com>

As far as email, there's an easy way to do it via googleapps that requires only your domain and has nothing to do with the server.
Just editing some domain records.
I did this, and its easy because its your own domain email, but has the flexibility and ease of use of the gmail interphase.

If you wish to look for web design, let me know, and I can do it.

(email me off line please)

Jorge




On Nov 8, 2010, at 6:10 PM, Tamika Williams wrote:

> Thanks Dave,
> 
> This sounds like a great idea especially for a group of beginners whose trying to build a website. I do have a couple of questions.
> 
> 1. Will we have the oppurtunity to keep the site updated ourselves or will we send the info to you?
> 2. Will the officers be able to have their own e-mail addresses?
> 
> These are the couple of questions that comes to mind, but if you can tell me anything else we might neede to consider thinking about when going with this server verses any other one, please let me know.
> 
> Thanks,
> Tamika Williams
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 9:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Website for student division
> 
> 
>> We can host it on the nfbnet server, if you wish, that way your only expense is registering the domain.
>> 
>> Dave
>> 
>> At 09:11 PM 11/7/2010, you wrote:
>>> Hello All,
>>> 
>>> The students of Alabama are trying to get a website running for our division. We are currently thinking that we may go with Go Daddy, has anyone had any experience with this web host. Is there any other suggestions that you would give us on choosing another web host. If anyone would like to contact me offlist my e-mail addresses are below.   We would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions that you have.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tamika Williams, AABS President
>>> E-mail 1: tamwill009 at comcast.net
>>> E-mail 2: tnw602 at jaguar1.usouthal.edu
>> 
>>                        David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
>> Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Tue Nov  9 03:01:04 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 22:01:04 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
Message-ID: <20101109030104.958.70347@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>

What about SASS? I hear it's much like SPSS only accessible.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:

>         SpSS is a program that lets you analyze Statistics in different
> ways, and it is required in my statistics course. My school is not making
> any exceptions, even though I have gave 110 percent effort to make it work!


> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 03:14:41 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 22:14:41 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College Sporting Events
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=F-8nvxPq+5coh+KTsbdyvZn_BUFfX2JGCqsFS@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!

I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting events.

I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
are a major Division I school.

I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.

This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
Friday, and a football game this Saturday.

First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.

First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?

Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
way?

On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
by myself.

For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
being a female not because of blindness)

My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
the fans?

Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?

Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?

Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
the same time.

The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and confidence...

Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
someone or not!
Help!

Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!

Thanks for all help and ideas!

Kerri


From dandrews at visi.com  Tue Nov  9 03:27:32 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 21:27:32 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Website for student division
In-Reply-To: <C89D7CDC7BC34883B9FC001F13244094@TamikaPC>
References: <60A007CEED9C42C1B6C01716EE7B8460@TamikaPC>
	<auto-000176836585@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<C89D7CDC7BC34883B9FC001F13244094@TamikaPC>
Message-ID: <auto-000180377561@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Yes, you can have as many e-mail addresses as you want, people can 
pick up mail here, or it can be forwarded somewhere else.

You maintain the site yourself, I don't have time to do that 
stuff.  So, you get the space etc., but little or no hand-holding from me.

Dave

At 05:10 PM 11/8/2010, you wrote:
>Thanks Dave,
>
>This sounds like a great idea especially for a group of beginners 
>whose trying to build a website. I do have a couple of questions.
>
>1. Will we have the oppurtunity to keep the site updated ourselves 
>or will we send the info to you?
>2. Will the officers be able to have their own e-mail addresses?
>
>These are the couple of questions that comes to mind, but if you can 
>tell me anything else we might neede to consider thinking about when 
>going with this server verses any other one, please let me know.
>
>Thanks,
>Tamika Williams
>----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 9:22 PM
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Website for student division
>
>
>>We can host it on the nfbnet server, if you wish, that way your 
>>only expense is registering the domain.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>At 09:11 PM 11/7/2010, you wrote:
>>>Hello All,
>>>
>>>The students of Alabama are trying to get a website running for 
>>>our division. We are currently thinking that we may go with Go 
>>>Daddy, has anyone had any experience with this web host. Is there 
>>>any other suggestions that you would give us on choosing another 
>>>web host. If anyone would like to contact me offlist my e-mail 
>>>addresses are below.   We would greatly appreciate any comments or 
>>>suggestions that you have.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Tamika Williams, AABS President
>>>E-mail 1: tamwill009 at comcast.net
>>>E-mail 2: tnw602 at jaguar1.usouthal.edu
>>
>>                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
>>Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net 
>>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dandrews%40visi.com
>
>
>__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
>signature database 5602 (20101108) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
>http://www.eset.com
>
>

                         David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Tue Nov  9 03:32:33 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 2010 22:32:33 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College Sporting
	Events
Message-ID: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>

Kerri,

About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the 
right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what 
kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and 
move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in 
your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain 
kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.

As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a 
little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat 
because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll 
interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be 
around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to 
go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend 
inviting a blind friend to tag along.

You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll 
be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop 
thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy 
of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as 
the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that 
in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to 
have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe 
bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go 
with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex 
nor vision has anything to do with anything.

Good luck.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hi All!

> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting events.

> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
> are a major Division I school.

> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.

> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.

> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.

> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?

> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
> way?

> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
> by myself.

> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
> being a female not because of blindness)

> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
> the fans?

> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?

> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?

> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
> the same time.

> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and confidence...

> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
> someone or not!
> Help!

> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!

> Thanks for all help and ideas!

> Kerri

> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 03:38:18 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 22:38:18 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Website for student division
In-Reply-To: <A76811C6-B486-463A-95D2-2F0B8AA6A017@mac.com>
References: <60A007CEED9C42C1B6C01716EE7B8460@TamikaPC>
	<auto-000176836585@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<C89D7CDC7BC34883B9FC001F13244094@TamikaPC>
	<A76811C6-B486-463A-95D2-2F0B8AA6A017@mac.com>
Message-ID: <6C7D3E12-8136-4180-AA38-ED893B6C414F@gmail.com>

It does work well via google apps. The only thing I don't like is that if you don't pay you have a limit on the number of email addresses (at least it used to be that way) and there are ads on the site. Of course if you access your email via Imap or POP3 it doesn't matter.
On Nov 8, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:

> As far as email, there's an easy way to do it via googleapps that requires only your domain and has nothing to do with the server.
> Just editing some domain records.
> I did this, and its easy because its your own domain email, but has the flexibility and ease of use of the gmail interphase.
> 
> If you wish to look for web design, let me know, and I can do it.
> 
> (email me off line please)
> 
> Jorge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 8, 2010, at 6:10 PM, Tamika Williams wrote:
> 
>> Thanks Dave,
>> 
>> This sounds like a great idea especially for a group of beginners whose trying to build a website. I do have a couple of questions.
>> 
>> 1. Will we have the oppurtunity to keep the site updated ourselves or will we send the info to you?
>> 2. Will the officers be able to have their own e-mail addresses?
>> 
>> These are the couple of questions that comes to mind, but if you can tell me anything else we might neede to consider thinking about when going with this server verses any other one, please let me know.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Tamika Williams
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 9:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Website for student division
>> 
>> 
>>> We can host it on the nfbnet server, if you wish, that way your only expense is registering the domain.
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>> At 09:11 PM 11/7/2010, you wrote:
>>>> Hello All,
>>>> 
>>>> The students of Alabama are trying to get a website running for our division. We are currently thinking that we may go with Go Daddy, has anyone had any experience with this web host. Is there any other suggestions that you would give us on choosing another web host. If anyone would like to contact me offlist my e-mail addresses are below.   We would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions that you have.
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Tamika Williams, AABS President
>>>> E-mail 1: tamwill009 at comcast.net
>>>> E-mail 2: tnw602 at jaguar1.usouthal.edu
>>> 
>>>                       David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
>>> Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 03:45:37 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 22:45:37 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Why are you even taking a bio lab?
In-Reply-To: <SNT111-DS598AA7DDD88002B141429BF4F0@phx.gbl>
References: <000c01cb7efa$24f0b670$9560c747@BRIAN>
	<SNT111-DS598AA7DDD88002B141429BF4F0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A8A18E2F-E3B1-4DDE-BECE-29AB91E45406@gmail.com>

SPSS? It's a pretty common program. It wouldn't surprise me if you have to use it again.
On Nov 7, 2010, at 11:09 PM, Ian Perrault wrote:

> I'm majoring in Public Administration, thank god not Biology! It's just an Introduction to Statistical Analysis course, just basic Statistics, and we need this stupid program. I don't know why, because I'll probably never use it again! 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 04:08:28 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 23:08:28 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College Sporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jedi and all:

Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
Thanks so much!

I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
isn't.

Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.

Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
own?

Kerri
Kerri

On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
> Kerri,
>
> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>
> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>
> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>
> Good luck.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> Hi All!
>
>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>> events.
>
>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>> are a major Division I school.
>
>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.
>
>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>
>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>
>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>
>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>> way?
>
>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>> by myself.
>
>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>> being a female not because of blindness)
>
>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>> the fans?
>
>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>
>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>
>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>> the same time.
>
>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and confidence...
>
>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>> someone or not!
>> Help!
>
>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>
>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>
>> Kerri
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From nabs.president at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 04:48:30 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Mon, 8 Nov 2010 21:48:30 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] SPSS with NVDA
In-Reply-To: <20101109030104.958.70347@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
References: <20101109030104.958.70347@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinHdnrNA9MbeGPbczfFnMcpPQZa7ctE-+uMf1FW@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I used SPSS as an undergrad psychology student, and always exported
the output tables into Excel for easy navigation. I'd imagine this
feature would still be available in Version 18; it should be somewhere
in the file menu. This is a very easy solution that takes just a
minute and won't require use of readers, Kurzweil, or anything like
that.

I now use SAS for all my data analyses in grad school because my
graduate statistics course required use of SAS and I learned all the
basic commands. It is completely accessible because there are no
point-and-click operations; all the analyses are carried out by
running syntax, or text commands you type into an editor. I usually
copy and paste the output into a Word file for ease of navigation.

A third option for stats is the free program called R. R is being used
more and more at my school and while I have not had the time to learn
it yet, I am told it is quite accessible as well.
Good luck and happy number crunching!
Arielle

On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
> What about SASS? I hear it's much like SPSS only accessible.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>
>>         SpSS is a program that lets you analyze Statistics in different
>> ways, and it is required in my statistics course. My school is not making
>> any exceptions, even though I have gave 110 percent effort to make it
>> work!
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
> --
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 05:22:50 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 00:22:50 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College Sporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
	<AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikp4dP+spSwCo9UhrNx2KDxRbJaWcoEoJUPY_Uv@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jedi and All!

I just got a crazy idea...you all will probably laugh at me and think
I'm stupid but I'll throw it out there.

Jedi suggested I go to the football game with a blind woman and I
replied that I'd absolutely love to but there aren't any blind people
around here which is unfortunately true.

I'm really trying to have a new positive attitude and find solutions
instead of complaining.

So, what about finding a sighted person and putting them under
sleepshades? I have three backup canes they could use, and I could
show them how to use the cane. We could go to the game and knowing
that they would be very new to blindness...I'd be in charge of our
travel...so essentially I'd have a "blind" person accompanying me even
though they aren't technically blind!

I know it's crazy...but I had to share...what you all think? Lol...I
wonder if anybody would go for it? Lol...

Oh how I wish I could somehow pull this off...

Sorry for such a crazy idea! Just had to throw it out there!

Kerri

On 11/8/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Jedi and all:
>
> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
> Thanks so much!
>
> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
> isn't.
>
> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>
> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
> own?
>
> Kerri
> Kerri
>
> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> Kerri,
>>
>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>>
>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>>
>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>>
>> Good luck.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Hi All!
>>
>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>> events.
>>
>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>> are a major Division I school.
>>
>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.
>>
>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>>
>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>>
>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>>
>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>> way?
>>
>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>> by myself.
>>
>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>>
>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>> the fans?
>>
>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>>
>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>>
>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>> the same time.
>>
>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>> confidence...
>>
>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>> someone or not!
>>> Help!
>>
>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>>
>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>>
>>> Kerri
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>


From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 05:35:43 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 00:35:43 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College
	SportingEvents
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal><AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikp4dP+spSwCo9UhrNx2KDxRbJaWcoEoJUPY_Uv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4393D62E284D4939A1E846779FC65D9A@D9P3ZND1>

hey Kerri,
Here are my random thoughts.
First of all I wouldn't feel the need to apologize for your idea or think 
it's "stupid" because it isn't.
If you could find a willing participant, why not give it a try? Keep the 
sighted persons perspective in mind though.
I'd think putting a sighted friend under sleepshades for the first time may 
be frightening and in many ways you would have to be the leader for the two 
of you. It would have to be a gradual build-up to get someone comfortable 
with traveling in a large noisy place like a basketball game. Keep in mind 
such an adventure may also give them a skewed view of blindness; they may 
feel disoriented and overwhelmed. As you know this is not how a blind 
traveler constantly feels. If you're up to the challenge, or have a friend 
who'd try it, go and have fun.

Anjelina
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
Albert Einstein
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College 
SportingEvents


> Hi Jedi and All!
>
> I just got a crazy idea...you all will probably laugh at me and think
> I'm stupid but I'll throw it out there.
>
> Jedi suggested I go to the football game with a blind woman and I
> replied that I'd absolutely love to but there aren't any blind people
> around here which is unfortunately true.
>
> I'm really trying to have a new positive attitude and find solutions
> instead of complaining.
>
> So, what about finding a sighted person and putting them under
> sleepshades? I have three backup canes they could use, and I could
> show them how to use the cane. We could go to the game and knowing
> that they would be very new to blindness...I'd be in charge of our
> travel...so essentially I'd have a "blind" person accompanying me even
> though they aren't technically blind!
>
> I know it's crazy...but I had to share...what you all think? Lol...I
> wonder if anybody would go for it? Lol...
>
> Oh how I wish I could somehow pull this off...
>
> Sorry for such a crazy idea! Just had to throw it out there!
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/8/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Jedi and all:
>>
>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>> Thanks so much!
>>
>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>> isn't.
>>
>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>>
>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>> own?
>>
>> Kerri
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> Kerri,
>>>
>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>>>
>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>>>
>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>>>
>>> Good luck.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Hi All!
>>>
>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>>> events.
>>>
>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>>> are a major Division I school.
>>>
>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.
>>>
>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>>>
>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>>>
>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>>>
>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>> way?
>>>
>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>>> by myself.
>>>
>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>>>
>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>> the fans?
>>>
>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>>>
>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>>>
>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>>> the same time.
>>>
>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>> confidence...
>>>
>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>> someone or not!
>>>> Help!
>>>
>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>>>
>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>> --
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  9 05:39:10 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 00:39:10 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College
	SportingEvents
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal><AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikp4dP+spSwCo9UhrNx2KDxRbJaWcoEoJUPY_Uv@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <89E176EA58C6413D96C62C9269FBAA3B@Ashley>

I don't think wandering around a crowed game setting is a good idea for a 
sighted person under shades.
They need to work up to something like that.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College 
SportingEvents


> Hi Jedi and All!
>
> I just got a crazy idea...you all will probably laugh at me and think
> I'm stupid but I'll throw it out there.
>
> Jedi suggested I go to the football game with a blind woman and I
> replied that I'd absolutely love to but there aren't any blind people
> around here which is unfortunately true.
>
> I'm really trying to have a new positive attitude and find solutions
> instead of complaining.
>
> So, what about finding a sighted person and putting them under
> sleepshades? I have three backup canes they could use, and I could
> show them how to use the cane. We could go to the game and knowing
> that they would be very new to blindness...I'd be in charge of our
> travel...so essentially I'd have a "blind" person accompanying me even
> though they aren't technically blind!
>
> I know it's crazy...but I had to share...what you all think? Lol...I
> wonder if anybody would go for it? Lol...
>
> Oh how I wish I could somehow pull this off...
>
> Sorry for such a crazy idea! Just had to throw it out there!
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/8/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Jedi and all:
>>
>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>> Thanks so much!
>>
>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>> isn't.
>>
>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>>
>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>> own?
>>
>> Kerri
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> Kerri,
>>>
>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>>>
>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>>>
>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>>>
>>> Good luck.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Hi All!
>>>
>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>>> events.
>>>
>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>>> are a major Division I school.
>>>
>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.
>>>
>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>>>
>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>>>
>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>>>
>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>> way?
>>>
>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>>> by myself.
>>>
>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>>>
>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>> the fans?
>>>
>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>>>
>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>>>
>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>>> the same time.
>>>
>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>> confidence...
>>>
>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>> someone or not!
>>>> Help!
>>>
>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>>>
>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>> --
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 05:50:00 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 00:50:00 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Website for student division
In-Reply-To: <auto-000180377561@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <60A007CEED9C42C1B6C01716EE7B8460@TamikaPC>
	<auto-000176836585@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<C89D7CDC7BC34883B9FC001F13244094@TamikaPC>
	<auto-000180377561@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin=o9bkSBOoEAmmU_ZGh8SxDWRwN=5-CiiJUd2b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!
You could maintain the site yourself, I would just be there to help
where I could if you wanted it.


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Tue Nov  9 07:00:47 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 02:00:47 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College
	Sporting	Events
Message-ID: <20101109070047.13511.28944@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>

Kerri,

I understand that dealing with tail gaters sounds scary, but there will 
be security there watching over everyone. If you have a cell phone, 
make sure that's on. I'm guessing that odds are you'll have to deal 
more with helpful drunks of all genders and sexes rather than drunk 
folks out to get you. Generally, folks at sports games are out to have 
fun. I can see why you'd feel unnnerved especially with all the media 
surrounding victimizations of young women. But the truth is you'll 
probably be fine. If you want to go it alone, just be sure you've got 
your cell phone and check in with loved ones from time to time if need 
be. Definitely no need to go through the trouble of pre-arranging 
everything. Just my opinion.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hi Jedi and all:

> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
> Thanks so much!

> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
> isn't.

> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.

> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
> own?

> Kerri
> Kerri

> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> Kerri,

>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.

>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.

>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.

>> Good luck.

>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi

>> Original message:
>>> Hi All!

>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>> events.

>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>> are a major Division I school.

>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.

>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.

>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.

>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?

>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>> way?

>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>> by myself.

>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>> being a female not because of blindness)

>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>> the fans?

>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?

>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?

>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>> the same time.

>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and confidence...

>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>> someone or not!
>>> Help!

>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!

>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!

>>> Kerri

>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com


> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.



From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Tue Nov  9 07:04:13 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 02:04:13 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College
	Sporting	Events
Message-ID: <20101109070413.13497.46669@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>

Good luck getting a sighted volunteer for that one. You also don't want 
to send the message to your sighted friends that blindness is hard. At 
your stage of development and with their lack of training, I would not 
suggest a sleepshade activity because you're still trying to figure out 
what you believe about blindness. It would be too easy for the sighted 
person to whip off the shades and take charge. If you want someone to 
tag along, choose a sighted friend who you know will give you the space 
you need.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hi Jedi and All!

> I just got a crazy idea...you all will probably laugh at me and think
> I'm stupid but I'll throw it out there.

> Jedi suggested I go to the football game with a blind woman and I
> replied that I'd absolutely love to but there aren't any blind people
> around here which is unfortunately true.

> I'm really trying to have a new positive attitude and find solutions
> instead of complaining.

> So, what about finding a sighted person and putting them under
> sleepshades? I have three backup canes they could use, and I could
> show them how to use the cane. We could go to the game and knowing
> that they would be very new to blindness...I'd be in charge of our
> travel...so essentially I'd have a "blind" person accompanying me even
> though they aren't technically blind!

> I know it's crazy...but I had to share...what you all think? Lol...I
> wonder if anybody would go for it? Lol...

> Oh how I wish I could somehow pull this off...

> Sorry for such a crazy idea! Just had to throw it out there!

> Kerri

> On 11/8/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Jedi and all:

>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>> Thanks so much!

>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>> isn't.

>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.

>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>> own?

>> Kerri
>> Kerri

>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> Kerri,

>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.

>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.

>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.

>>> Good luck.

>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi

>>> Original message:
>>>> Hi All!

>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>>> events.

>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>>> are a major Division I school.

>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.

>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.

>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.

>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?

>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>> way?

>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>>> by myself.

>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>> being a female not because of blindness)

>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>> the fans?

>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?

>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?

>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>>> the same time.

>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>> confidence...

>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>> someone or not!
>>>> Help!

>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!

>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!

>>>> Kerri

>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
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From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 07:33:35 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 02:33:35 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College Sporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=F-8nvxPq+5coh+KTsbdyvZn_BUFfX2JGCqsFS@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=F-8nvxPq+5coh+KTsbdyvZn_BUFfX2JGCqsFS@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A29243A3-2185-4739-8029-1A513E68FFF8@gmail.com>

Hello,
Well, it seems like the basketball game went pretty well, right? It really depends on the person, but generally if you firmly tell a sighted person that you only need to know a section number and nothing else, they will not try to help you even if you don't need any help. And you can always be firm and polite at the same time. Just try to look confident, and they will probably imagine that you're fine.
The football game is a different story though. There are lots of people in large universities and it's true that there are many cars and many people around the stadium before and after the game. I don't know, I think you will have a lot more fun in the game if you go with friends anyway. If there isn't anyone that can go with you this weekend, maybe you can wait and go to the next game with a friend. This would allow you to know the stadium a little better and just to see how things feel, and I'm sure you'll have a much better idea of how possible it is for you to go to future games by yourself.
I think it's a great idea to try to be independent and to show yourself that you can do things. But in my very personal opinion, sometimes we also need to be practical and see what makes sense and what doesn't. I personally wouldn't go to a football game by myself with a cane unless I know the area really well, just because it's very hard to listen for things and because a football game is not worth that much effort to me. Of course this might bee completely different for anyone else. If I have attended games before and I know what I'm doing and where I'm going, then I would probably do it. I'm not particularly afraid of huge crowds if I know the area well enough. I use a guide dog though, so navigating feels a lot easier to me than it felt when I used a cane.
An other option is for you to walk to the stadium sometime this week whenever there aren't so many people and familiarize yourself with the places you are going to have to walk through. Or maybe you can just call the box office at the stadium and tell them that you are blind, and someone can meet you and help you to get to your seat. Again, this would be a practical solution and I personally don't see anything wrong with it.
I play in large concert halls pretty frequently and usually after the concert I'm supposed to come out to the lobby and sign programs or whatever. Here in the US people always do that for some reason. In Europe you really don't have to. But anyway, I could come out with the dog and try to figure out where people are and put myself in the right place and try to talk to people in the right order and make everything awkward etc etc. But normally I just come out with my girlfriend, a stage person or whoever, just because it's practical for me to do it that way. It makes things faster, easier and just more natural. For me, this is a situation where I have no problem accepting help from someone else, even though if I really want to I can handle it by myself. But at that point, that's really not what it's about. It's about being efficient.
Just my opinion...!

IC
On Nov 8, 2010, at 10:14 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

> Hi All!
> 
> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting events.
> 
> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
> are a major Division I school.
> 
> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.
> 
> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
> 
> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
> 
> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
> 
> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
> way?
> 
> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
> by myself.
> 
> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
> being a female not because of blindness)
> 
> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
> the fans?
> 
> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
> 
> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
> 
> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
> the same time.
> 
> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and confidence...
> 
> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
> someone or not!
> Help!
> 
> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
> 
> Thanks for all help and ideas!
> 
> Kerri
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Tue Nov  9 08:45:55 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 03:45:55 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College
	Sporting	Events
Message-ID: <20101109084555.13963.83112@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>

Absolutely. Efficiency is the name of the game. When one spends a 
ridiculous amount of time trying to do something, it makes the actual 
activity much less fun. On the other hand, experience makes the doing 
much easier in the long-run; blind people often sell themselves short 
in the experience department in the name of efficiency and do so 
because they're not dealing with the real issue: their anxiety and 
their attitude toward blindness and their sense of self-efficacy. 
That's the whole point of the Federation and of doing things like 
visiting a football game with or without company for the first time. So 
that's the real trick isn't it? How do we know when we're accepting 
help because it's conveniently efficient or because we're just plain 
anxious and don't think we can do what we set out to do? Thoughts anyone?

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hello,
> Well, it seems like the basketball game went pretty well, right? It 
> really depends on the person, but generally if you firmly tell a 
> sighted person that you only need to know a section number and nothing 
> else, they will not try to help you even if you don't need any help. 
> And you can always be firm and polite at the same time. Just try to 
> look confident, and they will probably imagine that you're fine.
> The football game is a different story though. There are lots of people 
> in large universities and it's true that there are many cars and many 
> people around the stadium before and after the game. I don't know, I 
> think you will have a lot more fun in the game if you go with friends 
> anyway. If there isn't anyone that can go with you this weekend, maybe 
> you can wait and go to the next game with a friend. This would allow 
> you to know the stadium a little better and just to see how things 
> feel, and I'm sure you'll have a much better idea of how possible it is 
> for you to go to future games by yourself.
> I think it's a great idea to try to be independent and to show yourself 
> that you can do things. But in my very personal opinion, sometimes we 
> also need to be practical and see what makes sense and what doesn't. I 
> personally wouldn't go to a football game by myself with a cane unless 
> I know the area really well, just because it's very hard to listen for 
> things and because a football game is not worth that much effort to me. 
> Of course this might bee completely different for anyone else. If I 
> have attended games before and I know what I'm doing and where I'm 
> going, then I would probably do it. I'm not particularly afraid of huge 
> crowds if I know the area well enough. I use a guide dog though, so 
> navigating feels a lot easier to me than it felt when I used a cane.
> An other option is for you to walk to the stadium sometime this week 
> whenever there aren't so many people and familiarize yourself with the 
> places you are going to have to walk through. Or maybe you can just 
> call the box office at the stadium and tell them that you are blind, 
> and someone can meet you and help you to get to your seat. Again, this 
> would be a practical solution and I personally don't see anything wrong 
> with it.
> I play in large concert halls pretty frequently and usually after the 
> concert I'm supposed to come out to the lobby and sign programs or 
> whatever. Here in the US people always do that for some reason. In 
> Europe you really don't have to. But anyway, I could come out with the 
> dog and try to figure out where people are and put myself in the right 
> place and try to talk to people in the right order and make everything 
> awkward etc etc. But normally I just come out with my girlfriend, a 
> stage person or whoever, just because it's practical for me to do it 
> that way. It makes things faster, easier and just more natural. For me, 
> this is a situation where I have no problem accepting help from someone 
> else, even though if I really want to I can handle it by myself. But at 
> that point, that's really not what it's about. It's about being efficient.
> Just my opinion...!

> IC
> On Nov 8, 2010, at 10:14 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

>> Hi All!

>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting events.

>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>> are a major Division I school.

>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.

>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.

>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.

>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?

>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>> way?

>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>> by myself.

>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>> being a female not because of blindness)

>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>> the fans?

>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?

>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?

>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>> the same time.

>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and confidence...

>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>> someone or not!
>> Help!

>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!

>> Thanks for all help and ideas!

>> Kerri

>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com


> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 14:57:05 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 09:57:05 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major
	CollegeSporting	Events
References: <20101109070047.13511.28944@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
Message-ID: <79FB2F5DE6C94D3CAD49C4D49CB42B8A@D9P3ZND1>

Jedi,
Thanks for this reminder. I think most of our fears of traveling alone or 
attending events are perpetuated by media hype. It's great to use the buddy 
system and check in with friends if traveling alone.  generally people sober 
or intoxicated aren't out to harm. I've found the people you least think can 
give assistance are the ones who are the most helpful.

Anjelina
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
Albert Einstein
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 2:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major CollegeSporting 
Events


> Kerri,
>
> I understand that dealing with tail gaters sounds scary, but there will be 
> security there watching over everyone. If you have a cell phone, make sure 
> that's on. I'm guessing that odds are you'll have to deal more with 
> helpful drunks of all genders and sexes rather than drunk folks out to get 
> you. Generally, folks at sports games are out to have fun. I can see why 
> you'd feel unnnerved especially with all the media surrounding 
> victimizations of young women. But the truth is you'll probably be fine. 
> If you want to go it alone, just be sure you've got your cell phone and 
> check in with loved ones from time to time if need be. Definitely no need 
> to go through the trouble of pre-arranging everything. Just my opinion.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> Hi Jedi and all:
>
>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>> Thanks so much!
>
>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>> isn't.
>
>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>
>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>> own?
>
>> Kerri
>> Kerri
>
>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> Kerri,
>
>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>
>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>
>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>
>>> Good luck.
>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Hi All!
>
>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>>> events.
>
>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>>> are a major Division I school.
>
>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.
>
>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>
>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>
>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>
>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>> way?
>
>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>>> by myself.
>
>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>
>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>> the fans?
>
>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>
>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>
>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>>> the same time.
>
>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and 
>>>> confidence...
>
>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>> someone or not!
>>>> Help!
>
>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>
>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>
>>>> Kerri
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>
>>> --
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
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>
> -- 
> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> 



From corbbo at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 15:07:50 2010
From: corbbo at gmail.com (Corbbmacc O'Connor)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 10:07:50 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Virginia Blind Students Gather to Help Their Own
Message-ID: <AANLkTimPcA_LbM5ij4Dz6we7MREGF22Z8_KiGRdVvFut@mail.gmail.com>

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
November 8, 2010

CONTACT:
Corbb O'Connor, President
Students Division, National Federation of the Blind of Virginia
(202) 684-6130, corbbo at gmail.com

Virginia Blind Students Gather to Help Their Own

FALLS CHURCH, Va. — Successful blind students will teach other blind
students this weekend how to safely travel independently, use
technology to do well in school, and spread a positive outlook on
blindness at the 52nd annual state convention of the National
Federation of the Blind of Virginia.

According to Coordinator Corbb O'Connor, “Nearly three dozen junior
high, high school, and college students have already registered for
the convention’s Student Track, whose goal is to demonstrate that a
visual impairment does not mean that you have to do badly in school or
be socially isolated.”

Because blindness is a low incidence disability, many visually
impaired students don’t often get the chance to meet others like
themselves. Many of the Student Track activities give high school
students the opportunity to meet with others like themselves so they
can share solutions to common school and social problems, such as
access to textbooks and technology.

On Sunday morning, successful blind students will showcase technology
that blind people can use independently in the classroom, such as
Apple’s laptops, players that read textbooks and articles aloud, and
tools that allow blind people to take notes digitally in Braille.

Carol Lynn Beninca, whose 15-year-old blind son Anthony, said. “For
Anthony, he wants to meet others so he knows he's not alone, and he
wants to explore what devices others use to function better in
school.”

On Saturday, trained professionals in orientation and mobility will
teach students to use long white canes. This training, which not all
blind students receive in their public schools, will allow students to
safely and independently travel. In the afternoon, in partnership with
the Washington Metropolitan Transit Authority (WMATA/Metro), blind
students will get a hands-on experience using an out-of-service
Metrobus. Students will also learn to use the Metrorail system.

The convention will be held at the Marriott Fairview Park hotel,
located at 3111 Fairview Park Drive in Falls Church. Media are
requested to RSVP to coordinator Corbb O’Connor at corbbo at gmail.com or
(202) 684-6130.

The National Federation of the Blind is the largest organization of
the blind in the country. With over 700 chapters throughout the
country—16 of which in the commonwealth of Virginia—and with over
50,000 national members, the NFB seeks to improve equality,
opportunity, and security for the blind.


From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 15:33:26 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 10:33:26 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] my college degree
Message-ID: <4CD969C6.1040409@gmail.com>

Hi

I myself am going to stop at a bachelors degree I think. All I want to 
do is work for apple or voc rehab teaching fixing and setting up 
assistive technology. I think a bachelors degree will be fine for me. My 
advisor said I'll graduate in the fall of 2012 or winter of 2013 so 
that's fine. I'm doing average in my classes. hundreds on most of my 
online class discussions from www.capella.edu and 80s on most papers. 
That's fine for me my goal is to pass each class so I can graduate and 
get the degree mailed to me so I can then get a decent job.

Josh


From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  9 16:21:46 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 11:21:46 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Virginia Blind Students Gather to Help Their Own
References: <AANLkTimPcA_LbM5ij4Dz6we7MREGF22Z8_KiGRdVvFut@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4314D18D5BF1487AAA30DBAEF0FA5B78@Ashley>

    Hi Corbb,

Is that your phone number on that press release?  If so you're taking on 
quite a lot to speak to the media but I hope we do get press coverage.  Our 
division is inactive you know because students don't keep in touch.  Maybe 
these activities will encourage future networking and collaboration.  I can 
come to the luncheon but cannot make the student track as I want to attend 
general session.

Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Corbbmacc O'Connor" <corbbo at gmail.com>
To: "NFB of Virginia Information and Announcements" 
<nfbv-announce at nfbnet.org>; "nabs-presidents" <nabs-presidents at nfbnet.org>; 
"National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:07 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] Virginia Blind Students Gather to Help Their Own


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
November 8, 2010

CONTACT:
Corbb O'Connor, President
Students Division, National Federation of the Blind of Virginia
(202) 684-6130, corbbo at gmail.com

Virginia Blind Students Gather to Help Their Own

FALLS CHURCH, Va. — Successful blind students will teach other blind
students this weekend how to safely travel independently, use
technology to do well in school, and spread a positive outlook on
blindness at the 52nd annual state convention of the National
Federation of the Blind of Virginia.

According to Coordinator Corbb O'Connor, “Nearly three dozen junior
high, high school, and college students have already registered for
the convention’s Student Track, whose goal is to demonstrate that a
visual impairment does not mean that you have to do badly in school or
be socially isolated.”

Because blindness is a low incidence disability, many visually
impaired students don’t often get the chance to meet others like
themselves. Many of the Student Track activities give high school
students the opportunity to meet with others like themselves so they
can share solutions to common school and social problems, such as
access to textbooks and technology.

On Sunday morning, successful blind students will showcase technology
that blind people can use independently in the classroom, such as
Apple’s laptops, players that read textbooks and articles aloud, and
tools that allow blind people to take notes digitally in Braille.

Carol Lynn Beninca, whose 15-year-old blind son Anthony, said. “For
Anthony, he wants to meet others so he knows he's not alone, and he
wants to explore what devices others use to function better in
school.”

On Saturday, trained professionals in orientation and mobility will
teach students to use long white canes. This training, which not all
blind students receive in their public schools, will allow students to
safely and independently travel. In the afternoon, in partnership with
the Washington Metropolitan Transit Authority (WMATA/Metro), blind
students will get a hands-on experience using an out-of-service
Metrobus. Students will also learn to use the Metrorail system.

The convention will be held at the Marriott Fairview Park hotel,
located at 3111 Fairview Park Drive in Falls Church. Media are
requested to RSVP to coordinator Corbb O’Connor at corbbo at gmail.com or
(202) 684-6130.

The National Federation of the Blind is the largest organization of
the blind in the country. With over 700 chapters throughout the
country—16 of which in the commonwealth of Virginia—and with over
50,000 national members, the NFB seeks to improve equality,
opportunity, and security for the blind.

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net



From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com  Tue Nov  9 16:23:01 2010
From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 10:23:01 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Website for student division
References: <60A007CEED9C42C1B6C01716EE7B8460@TamikaPC><auto-000176836585@mailfront2.g2host.com><C89D7CDC7BC34883B9FC001F13244094@TamikaPC><A76811C6-B486-463A-95D2-2F0B8AA6A017@mac.com>
	<6C7D3E12-8136-4180-AA38-ED893B6C414F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002301cb802a$619a6040$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Good morning everyone,

    As one who has designed and hosted a number of affiliate Web sites on 
NFB Net let me assure you that this is a great resource and a great place to 
host your division's Web site. The NABS National site is hosted on NFB Net. 
If you host there remember that since we have total control over this 
resource there's no threat of your site interface being changed unexpectedly 
and the accessibility issues that accompany some such changes.

    As far as designing the interface using the NABS site and our national 
Web site: www.nfb.org as examples for creating your student division site. 
All content is accessed via hyper links. Some designers embed players for 
audio and video content. Although some of them work with some screen readers 
they don't work with them all. In addition some of them are cumbersome to 
navigate through. These are not used on the national site and should not be 
included on affiliate sites. The user's native media players can handle this 
content quite nicely. You don't find Flash players on the national sites so 
don't put them on your division site. Using straight hyperlinks for access 
to audio and video content also allows visitors to enlarge the view to where 
it almost fills the entire computer screen making the presentations easier 
for those with low vision to watch.

    I bring this matter to your attention as it recently came up in our 
affiliate and with one of my private clients. Sad to say that the private 
client was pronto about having her Webmaster remove the embedded players 
from her Web site. I would hope that an affiliate of an organization that 
champions Web accessibility would do the same. To the best of my knowledge 
no NFB affiliate Web site has attained the NFB Nonvisual Web Accessibility 
Certification. Perhaps you guys can make that happen. Just remember to 
follow the rules concerning designing accessible Web sites and model your 
site after the NABS and NFB National Site you could earn the NFB NVAWC Seal. 
Learn more about this program by visiting:
http://www.nfb.org/nfb/certification_intro.asp?SnID=1709626025

        There are many among the NFB Webmasters who can assist with the 
design and construction of your Web site. I'll look forward to checking it 
out when it goes live. All the best.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ignasi Cambra" <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 9:38 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Website for student division


It does work well via google apps. The only thing I don't like is that if 
you don't pay you have a limit on the number of email addresses (at least it 
used to be that way) and there are ads on the site. Of course if you access 
your email via Imap or POP3 it doesn't matter.
On Nov 8, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:

> As far as email, there's an easy way to do it via googleapps that requires 
> only your domain and has nothing to do with the server.
> Just editing some domain records.
> I did this, and its easy because its your own domain email, but has the 
> flexibility and ease of use of the gmail interphase.
>
> If you wish to look for web design, let me know, and I can do it.
>
> (email me off line please)
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 8, 2010, at 6:10 PM, Tamika Williams wrote:
>
>> Thanks Dave,
>>
>> This sounds like a great idea especially for a group of beginners whose 
>> trying to build a website. I do have a couple of questions.
>>
>> 1. Will we have the oppurtunity to keep the site updated ourselves or 
>> will we send the info to you?
>> 2. Will the officers be able to have their own e-mail addresses?
>>
>> These are the couple of questions that comes to mind, but if you can tell 
>> me anything else we might neede to consider thinking about when going 
>> with this server verses any other one, please let me know.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Tamika Williams
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 9:22 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Website for student division
>>
>>
>>> We can host it on the nfbnet server, if you wish, that way your only 
>>> expense is registering the domain.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 09:11 PM 11/7/2010, you wrote:
>>>> Hello All,
>>>>
>>>> The students of Alabama are trying to get a website running for our 
>>>> division. We are currently thinking that we may go with Go Daddy, has 
>>>> anyone had any experience with this web host. Is there any other 
>>>> suggestions that you would give us on choosing another web host. If 
>>>> anyone would like to contact me offlist my e-mail addresses are below. 
>>>> We would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions that you have.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Tamika Williams, AABS President
>>>> E-mail 1: tamwill009 at comcast.net
>>>> E-mail 2: tnw602 at jaguar1.usouthal.edu
>>>
>>>                       David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
>>> Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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From kimthurman at insightbb.com  Tue Nov  9 17:02:31 2010
From: kimthurman at insightbb.com (Kimberly thurman)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 12:02:31 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College Sporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
	<AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3D3B7406-476A-441F-B3A7-6164AAF35A37@insightbb.com>

Kerry and all:

I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I have to jump in here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the University of Louisville, a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West Virginia.  I have been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of Louisville played West Virginia.  

I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but  one of these football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too many sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  The area you would be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite dangerous with steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking lots are full of drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and he has to be on full alert while navigating these places himself.

The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the building on your own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy and the venue is not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there from some nice people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  I will take all the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these events by myself.  I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  There are usually lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  Most of the time someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually very nice.  Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person will get a positive image of blind people.

Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe while maintaining your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.  
On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

> Hi Jedi and all:
> 
> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
> Thanks so much!
> 
> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
> isn't.
> 
> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
> 
> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
> own?
> 
> Kerri
> Kerri
> 
> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>> Kerri,
>> 
>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>> 
>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>> 
>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>> 
>> Good luck.
>> 
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>> 
>> Original message:
>>> Hi All!
>> 
>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>> events.
>> 
>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>> are a major Division I school.
>> 
>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.
>> 
>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>> 
>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>> 
>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>> 
>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>> way?
>> 
>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>> by myself.
>> 
>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>> 
>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>> the fans?
>> 
>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>> 
>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>> 
>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>> the same time.
>> 
>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and confidence...
>> 
>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>> someone or not!
>>> Help!
>> 
>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>> 
>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>> 
>>> Kerri
>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>> 
>> --
>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 18:39:43 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 13:39:43 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College Sporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <3D3B7406-476A-441F-B3A7-6164AAF35A37@insightbb.com>
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
	<AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com>
	<3D3B7406-476A-441F-B3A7-6164AAF35A37@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=4UoQYpTT9sjmM71_OW7s-4QtNBxtSXh2tvTQm@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kimberly, Jedi and All:

Wow, Kimberly thank you so much!
I have been to our stadium several times and knew the parking lot was
huge, sprawling, and full of drunks. I guess since I was always guided
I forgot about all the steps!
I'm glad to finally find a fellow sports fan who follows a school in
the Big East conference...we play you guys there next week actually on
Nov. 20...I just wrote a story about the game being televised on the
Big East Network.

Thanks Kimberly for giving me a little wake-up call. I guess I'm kind
of on an independence high from the basketball game last week.
Your right that the basketball games are much calmer and a better
atmosphere...they are inside a building and I don't know of anyone who
drinks there...I don't even think they sell beer there.

Thanks so much...I want to be safe but also find and practice my
independence as well.

Here is what I may do.

Let me know what you guys think about this considering what Kimberly said.

I have an extra ticket for the football game Saturday. I go to the
game with someone. I go to the basketball game Friday by myself as I
did last week and really try to see if I can practice
independence...try to find my seat by asking for section numbers, and
see if I can get to the concession stand...that sorta thing.

Then I can be somewhat independent on my birthday, I still get to do
all the things I want to, but still be safe.

And Kimberly...thank you so much...you may have just kept me from a
dizasterous and potentially very dangerous and harmful situation!

Hope your stay in Morgantown was a good one; it is a big problem that
there are no blind people around here but I intend to do what I can to
solve it eventually!

Kerri

On 11/9/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
> Kerry and all:
>
> I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I have to jump in
> here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the University of Louisville,
> a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West Virginia.  I have
> been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of
> Louisville played West Virginia.
>
> I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but  one of these
> football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too many
> sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  The area you would
> be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite dangerous with
> steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking lots are full of
> drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and he has to be on
> full alert while navigating these places himself.
>
> The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the building on your
> own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy and the venue is
> not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there from some nice
> people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  I will take all
> the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these events by myself.
>  I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  There are usually
> lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  Most of the time
> someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually very nice.
> Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person will get a
> positive image of blind people.
>
> Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe while maintaining
> your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the
> football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.
> On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>
>> Hi Jedi and all:
>>
>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>> Thanks so much!
>>
>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>> isn't.
>>
>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>>
>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>> own?
>>
>> Kerri
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> Kerri,
>>>
>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>>>
>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>>>
>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>>>
>>> Good luck.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Hi All!
>>>
>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>>> events.
>>>
>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>>> are a major Division I school.
>>>
>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.
>>>
>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>>>
>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>>>
>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>>>
>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>> way?
>>>
>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>>> by myself.
>>>
>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>>>
>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>> the fans?
>>>
>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>>>
>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>>>
>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>>> the same time.
>>>
>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>> confidence...
>>>
>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>> someone or not!
>>>> Help!
>>>
>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>>>
>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>> --
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>


From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 18:51:54 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (anjelinac26 at gmail.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 13:51:54 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College Sporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=4UoQYpTT9sjmM71_OW7s-4QtNBxtSXh2tvTQm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
	<AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com>
	<3D3B7406-476A-441F-B3A7-6164AAF35A37@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTi=4UoQYpTT9sjmM71_OW7s-4QtNBxtSXh2tvTQm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <78B5147D-E6E4-4434-97C6-A7461FB6F6ED@gmail.com>

Even if you take a friend along this doesn't mean you've compromise your independence .

Anjelina
Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 9, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Kimberly, Jedi and All:
> 
> Wow, Kimberly thank you so much!
> I have been to our stadium several times and knew the parking lot was
> huge, sprawling, and full of drunks. I guess since I was always guided
> I forgot about all the steps!
> I'm glad to finally find a fellow sports fan who follows a school in
> the Big East conference...we play you guys there next week actually on
> Nov. 20...I just wrote a story about the game being televised on the
> Big East Network.
> 
> Thanks Kimberly for giving me a little wake-up call. I guess I'm kind
> of on an independence high from the basketball game last week.
> Your right that the basketball games are much calmer and a better
> atmosphere...they are inside a building and I don't know of anyone who
> drinks there...I don't even think they sell beer there.
> 
> Thanks so much...I want to be safe but also find and practice my
> independence as well.
> 
> Here is what I may do.
> 
> Let me know what you guys think about this considering what Kimberly said.
> 
> I have an extra ticket for the football game Saturday. I go to the
> game with someone. I go to the basketball game Friday by myself as I
> did last week and really try to see if I can practice
> independence...try to find my seat by asking for section numbers, and
> see if I can get to the concession stand...that sorta thing.
> 
> Then I can be somewhat independent on my birthday, I still get to do
> all the things I want to, but still be safe.
> 
> And Kimberly...thank you so much...you may have just kept me from a
> dizasterous and potentially very dangerous and harmful situation!
> 
> Hope your stay in Morgantown was a good one; it is a big problem that
> there are no blind people around here but I intend to do what I can to
> solve it eventually!
> 
> Kerri
> 
> On 11/9/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>> Kerry and all:
>> 
>> I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I have to jump in
>> here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the University of Louisville,
>> a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West Virginia.  I have
>> been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of
>> Louisville played West Virginia.
>> 
>> I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but  one of these
>> football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too many
>> sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  The area you would
>> be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite dangerous with
>> steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking lots are full of
>> drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and he has to be on
>> full alert while navigating these places himself.
>> 
>> The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the building on your
>> own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy and the venue is
>> not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there from some nice
>> people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  I will take all
>> the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these events by myself.
>> I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  There are usually
>> lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  Most of the time
>> someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually very nice.
>> Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person will get a
>> positive image of blind people.
>> 
>> Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe while maintaining
>> your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the
>> football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.
>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Jedi and all:
>>> 
>>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>>> Thanks so much!
>>> 
>>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>>> isn't.
>>> 
>>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>>> 
>>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>>> own?
>>> 
>>> Kerri
>>> Kerri
>>> 
>>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>> Kerri,
>>>> 
>>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>>>> 
>>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>>>> 
>>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>>>> 
>>>> Good luck.
>>>> 
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>> 
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Hi All!
>>>> 
>>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>>>> events.
>>>> 
>>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>>>> are a major Division I school.
>>>> 
>>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.
>>>> 
>>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>>>> 
>>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>>>> 
>>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>>>> 
>>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>>> way?
>>>> 
>>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>>>> by myself.
>>>> 
>>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>>>> 
>>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>>> the fans?
>>>> 
>>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>>>> 
>>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>>>> 
>>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>>>> the same time.
>>>> 
>>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>>> confidence...
>>>> 
>>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>>> someone or not!
>>>>> Help!
>>>> 
>>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>>>> 
>>>>> Kerri
>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
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>> 
>> 
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> 
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From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  9 19:04:09 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 14:04:09 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College
	SportingEvents
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal><AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com><3D3B7406-476A-441F-B3A7-6164AAF35A37@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTi=4UoQYpTT9sjmM71_OW7s-4QtNBxtSXh2tvTQm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F53A2AA3BB5C4A63BF6CE3AFF30C93D4@Ashley>

Kerry, sounds good.  Go with a friend and practice independence another 
ocasion.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College 
SportingEvents


> Hi Kimberly, Jedi and All:
>
> Wow, Kimberly thank you so much!
> I have been to our stadium several times and knew the parking lot was
> huge, sprawling, and full of drunks. I guess since I was always guided
> I forgot about all the steps!
> I'm glad to finally find a fellow sports fan who follows a school in
> the Big East conference...we play you guys there next week actually on
> Nov. 20...I just wrote a story about the game being televised on the
> Big East Network.
>
> Thanks Kimberly for giving me a little wake-up call. I guess I'm kind
> of on an independence high from the basketball game last week.
> Your right that the basketball games are much calmer and a better
> atmosphere...they are inside a building and I don't know of anyone who
> drinks there...I don't even think they sell beer there.
>
> Thanks so much...I want to be safe but also find and practice my
> independence as well.
>
> Here is what I may do.
>
> Let me know what you guys think about this considering what Kimberly said.
>
> I have an extra ticket for the football game Saturday. I go to the
> game with someone. I go to the basketball game Friday by myself as I
> did last week and really try to see if I can practice
> independence...try to find my seat by asking for section numbers, and
> see if I can get to the concession stand...that sorta thing.
>
> Then I can be somewhat independent on my birthday, I still get to do
> all the things I want to, but still be safe.
>
> And Kimberly...thank you so much...you may have just kept me from a
> dizasterous and potentially very dangerous and harmful situation!
>
> Hope your stay in Morgantown was a good one; it is a big problem that
> there are no blind people around here but I intend to do what I can to
> solve it eventually!
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/9/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>> Kerry and all:
>>
>> I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I have to jump 
>> in
>> here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the University of 
>> Louisville,
>> a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West Virginia.  I 
>> have
>> been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of
>> Louisville played West Virginia.
>>
>> I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but  one of 
>> these
>> football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too many
>> sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  The area you 
>> would
>> be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite dangerous 
>> with
>> steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking lots are full of
>> drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and he has to be 
>> on
>> full alert while navigating these places himself.
>>
>> The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the building on 
>> your
>> own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy and the venue 
>> is
>> not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there from some nice
>> people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  I will take 
>> all
>> the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these events by 
>> myself.
>>  I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  There are usually
>> lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  Most of the time
>> someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually very nice.
>> Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person will get a
>> positive image of blind people.
>>
>> Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe while 
>> maintaining
>> your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the
>> football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.
>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Jedi and all:
>>>
>>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>>> Thanks so much!
>>>
>>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>>> isn't.
>>>
>>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>>>
>>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>>> own?
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>> Kerri,
>>>>
>>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>>>>
>>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>>>>
>>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>>>>
>>>> Good luck.
>>>>
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>>
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Hi All!
>>>>
>>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>>>> events.
>>>>
>>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>>>> are a major Division I school.
>>>>
>>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive 
>>>>> attitude.
>>>>
>>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>>>>
>>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>>>>
>>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>>>>
>>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>>> way?
>>>>
>>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>>>> by myself.
>>>>
>>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>>>>
>>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>>> the fans?
>>>>
>>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>>>>
>>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>>>>
>>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>>>> the same time.
>>>>
>>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>>> confidence...
>>>>
>>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>>> someone or not!
>>>>> Help!
>>>>
>>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>>>>
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>
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From nabs.president at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 19:25:40 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 12:25:40 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College
	SportingEvents
In-Reply-To: <F53A2AA3BB5C4A63BF6CE3AFF30C93D4@Ashley>
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
	<AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com>
	<3D3B7406-476A-441F-B3A7-6164AAF35A37@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTi=4UoQYpTT9sjmM71_OW7s-4QtNBxtSXh2tvTQm@mail.gmail.com>
	<F53A2AA3BB5C4A63BF6CE3AFF30C93D4@Ashley>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimM=W1bvdJTdcDNx50cfGWZ7e0=9Q83omoH+Sug@mail.gmail.com>

This sounds good. If you go with a sighted friend, even if you want to
hold their elbow so you don't get separated, you can still practice
travel by using your cane and paying attention to the noises and other
things around you. Ask your friend questions: "Are we passing the
concession stand?" etc. Try to think about which way you'd go to get
out of the stadium based on the route you took to get in. If you want
to use the bathroom or get a snack or drink during the game and your
friend doesn't need to, maybe try doing that part on your own and ask
your friend to keep an eye out for you in case you have trouble
finding your way back. Most of all, enjoy the game and don't worry
about doing everything exactly perfectly! Independence will grow with
time and practice and you can gain it through little activities as
well as bigger ones.

Arielle

On 11/9/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Kerry, sounds good.  Go with a friend and practice independence another
> ocasion.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 1:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College
> SportingEvents
>
>
>> Hi Kimberly, Jedi and All:
>>
>> Wow, Kimberly thank you so much!
>> I have been to our stadium several times and knew the parking lot was
>> huge, sprawling, and full of drunks. I guess since I was always guided
>> I forgot about all the steps!
>> I'm glad to finally find a fellow sports fan who follows a school in
>> the Big East conference...we play you guys there next week actually on
>> Nov. 20...I just wrote a story about the game being televised on the
>> Big East Network.
>>
>> Thanks Kimberly for giving me a little wake-up call. I guess I'm kind
>> of on an independence high from the basketball game last week.
>> Your right that the basketball games are much calmer and a better
>> atmosphere...they are inside a building and I don't know of anyone who
>> drinks there...I don't even think they sell beer there.
>>
>> Thanks so much...I want to be safe but also find and practice my
>> independence as well.
>>
>> Here is what I may do.
>>
>> Let me know what you guys think about this considering what Kimberly said.
>>
>> I have an extra ticket for the football game Saturday. I go to the
>> game with someone. I go to the basketball game Friday by myself as I
>> did last week and really try to see if I can practice
>> independence...try to find my seat by asking for section numbers, and
>> see if I can get to the concession stand...that sorta thing.
>>
>> Then I can be somewhat independent on my birthday, I still get to do
>> all the things I want to, but still be safe.
>>
>> And Kimberly...thank you so much...you may have just kept me from a
>> dizasterous and potentially very dangerous and harmful situation!
>>
>> Hope your stay in Morgantown was a good one; it is a big problem that
>> there are no blind people around here but I intend to do what I can to
>> solve it eventually!
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/9/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>>> Kerry and all:
>>>
>>> I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I have to jump
>>> in
>>> here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the University of
>>> Louisville,
>>> a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West Virginia.  I
>>> have
>>> been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of
>>> Louisville played West Virginia.
>>>
>>> I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but  one of
>>> these
>>> football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too many
>>> sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  The area you
>>> would
>>> be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite dangerous
>>> with
>>> steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking lots are full of
>>> drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and he has to be
>>> on
>>> full alert while navigating these places himself.
>>>
>>> The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the building on
>>> your
>>> own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy and the venue
>>> is
>>> not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there from some nice
>>> people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  I will take
>>> all
>>> the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these events by
>>> myself.
>>>  I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  There are usually
>>> lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  Most of the time
>>> someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually very nice.
>>> Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person will get a
>>> positive image of blind people.
>>>
>>> Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe while
>>> maintaining
>>> your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the
>>> football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.
>>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Jedi and all:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>>>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>>>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>>>> Thanks so much!
>>>>
>>>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>>>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>>>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>>>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>>>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>>>> isn't.
>>>>
>>>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>>>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>>>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>>>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>>>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>>>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>>>>
>>>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>>>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>>>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>>>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>>>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>>>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>>>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>>>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>>>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>>>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>>>> own?
>>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>>> Kerri,
>>>>>
>>>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>>>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>>>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>>>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>>>>>
>>>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>>>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>>>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>>>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good luck.
>>>>>
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
>>>>>
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Hi All!
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>>>>> events.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>>>>> are a major Division I school.
>>>>>
>>>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive
>>>>>> attitude.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>>>>>
>>>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>>>>>
>>>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>>>> way?
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>>>>> by myself.
>>>>>
>>>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>>>>>
>>>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>>>> the fans?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>>>>> the same time.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>>>> confidence...
>>>>>
>>>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>>>> someone or not!
>>>>>> Help!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>>>>>
>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From kramc11 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 19:48:08 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 14:48:08 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] MassABS
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimM=W1bvdJTdcDNx50cfGWZ7e0=9Q83omoH+Sug@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal><AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com><3D3B7406-476A-441F-B3A7-6164AAF35A37@insightbb.com><AANLkTi=4UoQYpTT9sjmM71_OW7s-4QtNBxtSXh2tvTQm@mail.gmail.com><F53A2AA3BB5C4A63BF6CE3AFF30C93D4@Ashley>
	<AANLkTimM=W1bvdJTdcDNx50cfGWZ7e0=9Q83omoH+Sug@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <84433CEB05174931BE87D036EAA18FCC@SonyPC>

The Massachusetts Association of Blind Students has just created a new 
NFB.org email list. To join visit 
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/massabs_nfbnet.org

This mailing list is a list for all Massachusetts students (at any 
educational level) including non-traditional students. This list also is a 
resource for any person who is interested in the subject of blind students 
in Massachusetts even if their not blind, not a member of the NFB, etc. 
Subscribers can also learn more about the organized blind and the services 
that are available to them in Massachusetts.

The list will allow the Massachusetts Association of Blind Students to 
communicate between meetings and also invite communication with students who 
are not part of the NFB.

This list will be used to post any events, announcements, fund raisers, and 
more. Most importantly, the list will be used to help the students of 
Massachusetts to network, discuss, solve, and discover new methods to 
resolve various questions.





From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 20:19:59 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 15:19:59 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College
	Sporting	Events
Message-ID: <4CD9ACEF.1090304@gmail.com>

Hi,

My opinion on it is this. If I were going to a baseball game in my home 
town here first I'd get a cell phone even if it were a track-phone. 
Around here I have to take either paratransit or cabs. I live in 
Pensylvania by the way in the city of Reading.  So anyway I'd take a cab 
there and go a bit early and maybe have someone give me a hand to my 
seat at least the first few times until I knew the stadium well enough 
to do it on my own. After I get my bachelors degree I'd like to take a 
trip back to Florida eventually. While there I'll probably get sighted 
help either that or by then I'll have a good sendero gps to guide me to 
major attractions. The question sometimes that you have to ask yourself 
is, do I want to spend most of my time trying to find the attraction I 
wish to have fun at just because I want to be totally independent and on 
my own, or do I in this instance want some sighted guide help so I can 
quickly get to that favorite attraction in order to spend more time 
there, get there early, etcetera?
When I go to church I usually go early. Its not that I don't like crowds 
crowds are fine with me for me rather I mean. But I sit in the front. 
why? primarily so I can be the first person to get communion and so I 
don't have to count seats and remember where I was since its a farely 
large church building. Either that or I sit in the very back or when I 
have my son we go to the sound-proof nursery/parent/kids room so as not 
to disturb other people and so he can play with other kids. Most of my 
friends when I went to Kutztown University, a physical campus located in 
Kutztown Pensylvania most of my friends there were other blind people 
and others with various disabilities. I tried dating sighted people but 
it just never worked out. My wife and I met or re-met there, got married 
and we have a son but he is sighted. Most of the friends that I do have 
from living around here in the city are people who I met in church.

Josh


From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 20:27:56 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 15:27:56 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College,
	Sporting	Events
Message-ID: <4CD9AECC.4030005@gmail.com>

Hi

yes exactly. sometimes I like to be efficient and choose to ask for 
help. Like when I'm in church sometimes I'll explore on my own that's 
how I found where the holy water basin was located at and there's some 
other stuff that is in the church that I currently don't know what it is 
I'll have to ask someone sometime when I think of it. But sometimes I 
explore sometimes I ask for help and sometimes I use my gps which is not 
the greatest, its just a nokia phone with loadstone gps and talks no I 
do not recommend loadstone to anyone unless you want a headache getting 
maps and routes into the thing. go with kapten trekker or sendero if you 
can afford it.

Josh


From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 20:45:39 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 15:45:39 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Katelyn From American Idol Season9 Appears Live On The Djd
	Invasion Tonight
Message-ID: <A57DCBEE9A8A4D15B9006A75DB19986D@AudioShockWave>


Greetings All!
Well, you read it right!
Tonight, we've got a very special and quite exciting Djd Invasion show going on beginning at 8 PM eastern and going til 11.
For one thing, my sister, Beth, will appear as a guest MC for tonight's show along with me.
We've got our usual variety of songs and your requests
And...
American Idol Season 9 contestant Katelyn Epperly will be appearing live, not pre recorded, not aired later on, but live on air on AudioMirrorFM!


During this show, you can make requests by email at
live at audiomirrorfm.com
by aol instant messenger at the address
live at audiomirrorfm.com
by msn messenger at the address
audiomirrorfm at live.co.uk
or through skype at the address
audiomirrorfm
or by phone at
646-755-9715
This should be a very exciting and amazing three hours with the Katelyn Epperly interview and more, so to listen, save this email, and at 8 PM eastern, go to
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/listen.php
to check it out. I hope to see you all there!
>From Djd, host of The Djd Invasion On AudioMirrorFM
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com

From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 20:57:18 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 15:57:18 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] free daisy books
Message-ID: <4CD9B5AE.2000400@gmail.com>

Hi

I know you can get daisy books through rfbd, bookshare, and nls national 
library service. But are there any websites which offer public domain 
books in daisy format? I would specifically be interested in the public 
domain baltimore catholic catechism and also the public domain douay 
rheims catholic bible. Either daisy audio, daisy text or both daisy 
audio and text in one daisy book. I am a bookshare member because I'm a 
capella university student but I am also interested in any public domain 
catholic material in daisy audio daisy text or daisy audio&text formats.

Josh


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Tue Nov  9 21:40:46 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 16:40:46 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Website for student division
In-Reply-To: <002301cb802a$619a6040$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <60A007CEED9C42C1B6C01716EE7B8460@TamikaPC>
	<auto-000176836585@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<C89D7CDC7BC34883B9FC001F13244094@TamikaPC>
	<A76811C6-B486-463A-95D2-2F0B8AA6A017@mac.com>
	<6C7D3E12-8136-4180-AA38-ED893B6C414F@gmail.com>
	<002301cb802a$619a6040$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <F6A88974-95F4-4E14-9B68-0DD3E6D9FAEA@mac.com>

Great points Peter.
And if I can just drop one more in there, flash is bad visually as it is to us blind users, so please don't use it.
Remember, we're concerned about the blind, but we also have to make it visually good, and putting flash anywhere on a website completely defeats both.

Jorge




On Nov 9, 2010, at 11:23 AM, Peter Donahue wrote:

> Good morning everyone,
> 
>    As one who has designed and hosted a number of affiliate Web sites on 
> NFB Net let me assure you that this is a great resource and a great place to 
> host your division's Web site. The NABS National site is hosted on NFB Net. 
> If you host there remember that since we have total control over this 
> resource there's no threat of your site interface being changed unexpectedly 
> and the accessibility issues that accompany some such changes.
> 
>    As far as designing the interface using the NABS site and our national 
> Web site: www.nfb.org as examples for creating your student division site. 
> All content is accessed via hyper links. Some designers embed players for 
> audio and video content. Although some of them work with some screen readers 
> they don't work with them all. In addition some of them are cumbersome to 
> navigate through. These are not used on the national site and should not be 
> included on affiliate sites. The user's native media players can handle this 
> content quite nicely. You don't find Flash players on the national sites so 
> don't put them on your division site. Using straight hyperlinks for access 
> to audio and video content also allows visitors to enlarge the view to where 
> it almost fills the entire computer screen making the presentations easier 
> for those with low vision to watch.
> 
>    I bring this matter to your attention as it recently came up in our 
> affiliate and with one of my private clients. Sad to say that the private 
> client was pronto about having her Webmaster remove the embedded players 
> from her Web site. I would hope that an affiliate of an organization that 
> champions Web accessibility would do the same. To the best of my knowledge 
> no NFB affiliate Web site has attained the NFB Nonvisual Web Accessibility 
> Certification. Perhaps you guys can make that happen. Just remember to 
> follow the rules concerning designing accessible Web sites and model your 
> site after the NABS and NFB National Site you could earn the NFB NVAWC Seal. 
> Learn more about this program by visiting:
> http://www.nfb.org/nfb/certification_intro.asp?SnID=1709626025
> 
>        There are many among the NFB Webmasters who can assist with the 
> design and construction of your Web site. I'll look forward to checking it 
> out when it goes live. All the best.
> 
> Peter Donahue
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Ignasi Cambra" <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 9:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Website for student division
> 
> 
> It does work well via google apps. The only thing I don't like is that if 
> you don't pay you have a limit on the number of email addresses (at least it 
> used to be that way) and there are ads on the site. Of course if you access 
> your email via Imap or POP3 it doesn't matter.
> On Nov 8, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
> 
>> As far as email, there's an easy way to do it via googleapps that requires 
>> only your domain and has nothing to do with the server.
>> Just editing some domain records.
>> I did this, and its easy because its your own domain email, but has the 
>> flexibility and ease of use of the gmail interphase.
>> 
>> If you wish to look for web design, let me know, and I can do it.
>> 
>> (email me off line please)
>> 
>> Jorge
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 6:10 PM, Tamika Williams wrote:
>> 
>>> Thanks Dave,
>>> 
>>> This sounds like a great idea especially for a group of beginners whose 
>>> trying to build a website. I do have a couple of questions.
>>> 
>>> 1. Will we have the oppurtunity to keep the site updated ourselves or 
>>> will we send the info to you?
>>> 2. Will the officers be able to have their own e-mail addresses?
>>> 
>>> These are the couple of questions that comes to mind, but if you can tell 
>>> me anything else we might neede to consider thinking about when going 
>>> with this server verses any other one, please let me know.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Tamika Williams
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 9:22 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Website for student division
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> We can host it on the nfbnet server, if you wish, that way your only 
>>>> expense is registering the domain.
>>>> 
>>>> Dave
>>>> 
>>>> At 09:11 PM 11/7/2010, you wrote:
>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>> 
>>>>> The students of Alabama are trying to get a website running for our 
>>>>> division. We are currently thinking that we may go with Go Daddy, has 
>>>>> anyone had any experience with this web host. Is there any other 
>>>>> suggestions that you would give us on choosing another web host. If 
>>>>> anyone would like to contact me offlist my e-mail addresses are below. 
>>>>> We would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions that you have.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Tamika Williams, AABS President
>>>>> E-mail 1: tamwill009 at comcast.net
>>>>> E-mail 2: tnw602 at jaguar1.usouthal.edu
>>>> 
>>>>                      David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
>>>> Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
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>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 21:49:57 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 16:49:57 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Fall Promo
Message-ID: <E5574786E4594292BFFC951917358855@Rufus>

Hello,

It's getting to be that time of year again.  You know, that time of year
when you know you ought to be working on your term paper, but haven't, or
when you should have paid more attention to those college and scholarship
essays, but didn't?  Are you applying for jobs or internships and need your
résumé and/or cover letter professionally polished?

Up until now, AlphaComm Strategies has primarily functioned by word of
mouth.  As we go public, we'd like to welcome you with a Fall Promotion
advertised only on these lists.  From now until December 15, you too can
take advantage of our wealth of services at a reduced cost.  Subscribers to
this list will have 20% knocked off the normal rate of any service listed in
the General or Individual categories.  If your needs do not fall into the
services listed, drop us a note and tell us about it to see what we can work
out.  And, take a look at our Opportunities page to learn how you can earn a
little money from your referrals.

When you submit your Contact Form on our website, simply enter the name of
the list you belong to in the Promo Code box.  The quote we send you will
reflect the discount.  AlphaComm Strategies is not a vague operation using
far-flung writers to create original copy and professional proofreading.
We're based here in the United States with an actual human to answer e-mails
and phone calls.  Give us a try, and recommend us to your friends.  You can
work on your writing project and hope for the best, or you can trust it to
us and guarantee it!

Regards,

Joe Orozco, Managing Director
AlphaComm Strategies: Your Message, Our Mission

www.alphacommstrategies.com/

“Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all.”--Sam Ewing



From tamwill009 at comcast.net  Tue Nov  9 22:11:15 2010
From: tamwill009 at comcast.net (Tamika Williams)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 16:11:15 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Website for student division
In-Reply-To: <F6A88974-95F4-4E14-9B68-0DD3E6D9FAEA@mac.com>
References: <60A007CEED9C42C1B6C01716EE7B8460@TamikaPC><auto-000176836585@mailfront2.g2host.com><C89D7CDC7BC34883B9FC001F13244094@TamikaPC><A76811C6-B486-463A-95D2-2F0B8AA6A017@mac.com><6C7D3E12-8136-4180-AA38-ED893B6C414F@gmail.com><002301cb802a$619a6040$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<F6A88974-95F4-4E14-9B68-0DD3E6D9FAEA@mac.com>
Message-ID: <3DEAE9D0C1374298A961924AA9B0361C@TamikaPC>

Thank you all for the suggestions and comments, there have been great ideas 
to consider when creating our website. All of you have been great help to us 
and we know where to turn if we need anymore help.

Sincerely,
Tamika Williams
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 3:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Website for student division


> Great points Peter.
> And if I can just drop one more in there, flash is bad visually as it is 
> to us blind users, so please don't use it.
> Remember, we're concerned about the blind, but we also have to make it 
> visually good, and putting flash anywhere on a website completely defeats 
> both.
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 9, 2010, at 11:23 AM, Peter Donahue wrote:
>
>> Good morning everyone,
>>
>>    As one who has designed and hosted a number of affiliate Web sites on
>> NFB Net let me assure you that this is a great resource and a great place 
>> to
>> host your division's Web site. The NABS National site is hosted on NFB 
>> Net.
>> If you host there remember that since we have total control over this
>> resource there's no threat of your site interface being changed 
>> unexpectedly
>> and the accessibility issues that accompany some such changes.
>>
>>    As far as designing the interface using the NABS site and our national
>> Web site: www.nfb.org as examples for creating your student division 
>> site.
>> All content is accessed via hyper links. Some designers embed players for
>> audio and video content. Although some of them work with some screen 
>> readers
>> they don't work with them all. In addition some of them are cumbersome to
>> navigate through. These are not used on the national site and should not 
>> be
>> included on affiliate sites. The user's native media players can handle 
>> this
>> content quite nicely. You don't find Flash players on the national sites 
>> so
>> don't put them on your division site. Using straight hyperlinks for 
>> access
>> to audio and video content also allows visitors to enlarge the view to 
>> where
>> it almost fills the entire computer screen making the presentations 
>> easier
>> for those with low vision to watch.
>>
>>    I bring this matter to your attention as it recently came up in our
>> affiliate and with one of my private clients. Sad to say that the private
>> client was pronto about having her Webmaster remove the embedded players
>> from her Web site. I would hope that an affiliate of an organization that
>> champions Web accessibility would do the same. To the best of my 
>> knowledge
>> no NFB affiliate Web site has attained the NFB Nonvisual Web 
>> Accessibility
>> Certification. Perhaps you guys can make that happen. Just remember to
>> follow the rules concerning designing accessible Web sites and model your
>> site after the NABS and NFB National Site you could earn the NFB NVAWC 
>> Seal.
>> Learn more about this program by visiting:
>> http://www.nfb.org/nfb/certification_intro.asp?SnID=1709626025
>>
>>        There are many among the NFB Webmasters who can assist with the
>> design and construction of your Web site. I'll look forward to checking 
>> it
>> out when it goes live. All the best.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Ignasi Cambra" <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 08, 2010 9:38 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Website for student division
>>
>>
>> It does work well via google apps. The only thing I don't like is that if
>> you don't pay you have a limit on the number of email addresses (at least 
>> it
>> used to be that way) and there are ads on the site. Of course if you 
>> access
>> your email via Imap or POP3 it doesn't matter.
>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>>
>>> As far as email, there's an easy way to do it via googleapps that 
>>> requires
>>> only your domain and has nothing to do with the server.
>>> Just editing some domain records.
>>> I did this, and its easy because its your own domain email, but has the
>>> flexibility and ease of use of the gmail interphase.
>>>
>>> If you wish to look for web design, let me know, and I can do it.
>>>
>>> (email me off line please)
>>>
>>> Jorge
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 6:10 PM, Tamika Williams wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks Dave,
>>>>
>>>> This sounds like a great idea especially for a group of beginners whose
>>>> trying to build a website. I do have a couple of questions.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Will we have the oppurtunity to keep the site updated ourselves or
>>>> will we send the info to you?
>>>> 2. Will the officers be able to have their own e-mail addresses?
>>>>
>>>> These are the couple of questions that comes to mind, but if you can 
>>>> tell
>>>> me anything else we might neede to consider thinking about when going
>>>> with this server verses any other one, please let me know.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Tamika Williams
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2010 9:22 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Website for student division
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> We can host it on the nfbnet server, if you wish, that way your only
>>>>> expense is registering the domain.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> At 09:11 PM 11/7/2010, you wrote:
>>>>>> Hello All,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The students of Alabama are trying to get a website running for our
>>>>>> division. We are currently thinking that we may go with Go Daddy, has
>>>>>> anyone had any experience with this web host. Is there any other
>>>>>> suggestions that you would give us on choosing another web host. If
>>>>>> anyone would like to contact me offlist my e-mail addresses are 
>>>>>> below.
>>>>>> We would greatly appreciate any comments or suggestions that you 
>>>>>> have.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Tamika Williams, AABS President
>>>>>> E-mail 1: tamwill009 at comcast.net
>>>>>> E-mail 2: tnw602 at jaguar1.usouthal.edu
>>>>>
>>>>>                      David Andrews:  dandrews at visi.com
>>>>> Follow me on Twitter:  http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tamwill009%40comcast.net 



From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 22:25:48 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 17:25:48 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] sort of disappointed
Message-ID: <4CD9CA6C.1060206@gmail.com>

Hi

Well I looked and looked and there are no blind catholic organizations 
in the United States. I found the association of blind catholics, but 
its in the United Kingdom and I surely cannot go there for meetings, at 
least not at this point.

I am also disappointed to report that after extensive searching the only 
catholic materials I can get in daisy format either daisy text or daisy 
audio is on bookshare nls and rfbd. But you have to be a member to join 
those. There are many public domain documents on the ewtn website which 
are just text or word documents. I don't think EWTN thought of blind 
people when they designed their site and their library. Here is what 
would be really cool.
1. there are public domain catholic bibles and catholic catechisms. the 
baltimore catechism 1901 and douay rheims bible are public domain 
materials. they may be older but they're certainly readable. But they 
are not in daisy format! It would be nice to have a blind catholics 
devision which would combine both ACB and nfb blind people who are 
catholics, interested in catholicism or whoever wants to join for 
curiosity sake. I haven't created a website in years though. I guess I 
could use ms-word to help me with that. And maybe we could have online 
bible study or catechism classes for people. I wonder if anybody in my 
parish would want to help or could help out with this? I think maybe 
I'll ask next time. I'm the only blind person in my parish. My wife 
doesn't go with me but I hope someday she will decide to. I do take my 
sighted son to church with me though.

Oh, for those who don't have word. if you want to use openoffice to make 
daisy books you can use vinux in a virtual machine it has openoffice 
writer its accessible in vinux right out of the box. just add the daisy 
plugin and off you go making daisy books. and you can copy and paste 
your books to and from windows and vinux with vmware tools just using 
copy and paste commands. I have word in windows. But converting ewtn 
library documents to daisy will be a big project. First I have to get 
familiar with how save as daisy works. Also for daisy audio microsoft 
anna or the acapela voices would be good for converting to daisy audio I 
think. So what do you guys think? There have to be more blind people who 
are catholic out there besides just me, perhaps my wife in the future 
well so far she's not catholic...

Josh


From trising at sbcglobal.net  Tue Nov  9 22:53:42 2010
From: trising at sbcglobal.net (trising)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 17:53:42 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] sort of disappointed
References: <4CD9CA6C.1060206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <12961FD0ED10418BA10BFB2248FF3AA2@user6389c7a3c9>

I know there are Braille Catholic materials at Xavier Society for the Blind. My husband and I aare Missouri Synod Lutherans, and we 
use the hymnal from Lutheran Braille Workers. We also have a New International Version Braille Bible from them. I know this is the 
version they put in English Braille, and many other languages to send for free around the world. You do not have to be Lutheran to 
use their materials, just blind and interested. Also, have you looked at Optasia Ministries. I have several versions of the Bible 
from them that I have downloaded on my Pac Mate for use with my Braille display. I use the New International Version mostly, so I do 
not know if the Catholic versions are available from Optasia, but it is worth a try.
Terri Wilcox 


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From kramc11 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 22:56:52 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 17:56:52 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] sort of disappointed
In-Reply-To: <4CD9CA6C.1060206@gmail.com>
References: <4CD9CA6C.1060206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19DA071197F74C979F9EC875EE1BA0AC@SonyPC>

I find bible gateway http://www.biblegateway.com/ to be a great accessible 
bible. Also, for any Catholic teenagers on this list, there is a wonderful 
program called lifeteen. It is not a program for people with disabilities, 
but it is very welcoming and I have never had any problems with it. There 
are lifeteen programs in parishes all over the country.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Kennedy" <jkenn337 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 5:25 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] sort of disappointed


> Hi
>
> Well I looked and looked and there are no blind catholic organizations in 
> the United States. I found the association of blind catholics, but its in 
> the United Kingdom and I surely cannot go there for meetings, at least not 
> at this point.
>
> I am also disappointed to report that after extensive searching the only 
> catholic materials I can get in daisy format either daisy text or daisy 
> audio is on bookshare nls and rfbd. But you have to be a member to join 
> those. There are many public domain documents on the ewtn website which 
> are just text or word documents. I don't think EWTN thought of blind 
> people when they designed their site and their library. Here is what would 
> be really cool.
> 1. there are public domain catholic bibles and catholic catechisms. the 
> baltimore catechism 1901 and douay rheims bible are public domain 
> materials. they may be older but they're certainly readable. But they are 
> not in daisy format! It would be nice to have a blind catholics devision 
> which would combine both ACB and nfb blind people who are catholics, 
> interested in catholicism or whoever wants to join for curiosity sake. I 
> haven't created a website in years though. I guess I could use ms-word to 
> help me with that. And maybe we could have online bible study or catechism 
> classes for people. I wonder if anybody in my parish would want to help or 
> could help out with this? I think maybe I'll ask next time. I'm the only 
> blind person in my parish. My wife doesn't go with me but I hope someday 
> she will decide to. I do take my sighted son to church with me though.
>
> Oh, for those who don't have word. if you want to use openoffice to make 
> daisy books you can use vinux in a virtual machine it has openoffice 
> writer its accessible in vinux right out of the box. just add the daisy 
> plugin and off you go making daisy books. and you can copy and paste your 
> books to and from windows and vinux with vmware tools just using copy and 
> paste commands. I have word in windows. But converting ewtn library 
> documents to daisy will be a big project. First I have to get familiar 
> with how save as daisy works. Also for daisy audio microsoft anna or the 
> acapela voices would be good for converting to daisy audio I think. So 
> what do you guys think? There have to be more blind people who are 
> catholic out there besides just me, perhaps my wife in the future well so 
> far she's not catholic...
>
> Josh
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  9 23:03:45 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 18:03:45 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College Sporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <4CD9ACEF.1090304@gmail.com>
References: <4CD9ACEF.1090304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik2hOZvS0ovGOjAZjJ+XKCz3HBaHxMUdZdesRc2@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All:

Thanks so much for all your responses!

I will go to th basketball game again as I did last week, and go to
the football game with someone, and hope I can get them to understand
that I want to explore, even if it's just going to the concession
stand and that they do not need to guide me absolutely everywhere.

Kerri

On 11/9/10, Josh Kennedy <jkenn337 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> My opinion on it is this. If I were going to a baseball game in my home
> town here first I'd get a cell phone even if it were a track-phone.
> Around here I have to take either paratransit or cabs. I live in
> Pensylvania by the way in the city of Reading.  So anyway I'd take a cab
> there and go a bit early and maybe have someone give me a hand to my
> seat at least the first few times until I knew the stadium well enough
> to do it on my own. After I get my bachelors degree I'd like to take a
> trip back to Florida eventually. While there I'll probably get sighted
> help either that or by then I'll have a good sendero gps to guide me to
> major attractions. The question sometimes that you have to ask yourself
> is, do I want to spend most of my time trying to find the attraction I
> wish to have fun at just because I want to be totally independent and on
> my own, or do I in this instance want some sighted guide help so I can
> quickly get to that favorite attraction in order to spend more time
> there, get there early, etcetera?
> When I go to church I usually go early. Its not that I don't like crowds
> crowds are fine with me for me rather I mean. But I sit in the front.
> why? primarily so I can be the first person to get communion and so I
> don't have to count seats and remember where I was since its a farely
> large church building. Either that or I sit in the very back or when I
> have my son we go to the sound-proof nursery/parent/kids room so as not
> to disturb other people and so he can play with other kids. Most of my
> friends when I went to Kutztown University, a physical campus located in
> Kutztown Pensylvania most of my friends there were other blind people
> and others with various disabilities. I tried dating sighted people but
> it just never worked out. My wife and I met or re-met there, got married
> and we have a son but he is sighted. Most of the friends that I do have
> from living around here in the city are people who I met in church.
>
> Josh
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From kimthurman at insightbb.com  Tue Nov  9 23:55:26 2010
From: kimthurman at insightbb.com (Kimberly thurman)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 18:55:26 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College Sporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=4UoQYpTT9sjmM71_OW7s-4QtNBxtSXh2tvTQm@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
	<AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com>
	<3D3B7406-476A-441F-B3A7-6164AAF35A37@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTi=4UoQYpTT9sjmM71_OW7s-4QtNBxtSXh2tvTQm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8581BF93-4608-4D56-88FE-FD6D3F976AF7@insightbb.com>

Kerry, I just wanted you to be safe, and I do not think this would be a safe environment for you alone.  We had a blast in Morgantown.  We lost and had to endure the singing of Country Roads by 60,000 reved up fans as we slunk out of the stadium with our tails between our legs. lol  Louisville and West Virginia have had some heated battles in the past.  It's a good rivalry.  


On Nov 9, 2010, at 1:39 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

> Hi Kimberly, Jedi and All:
> 
> Wow, Kimberly thank you so much!
> I have been to our stadium several times and knew the parking lot was
> huge, sprawling, and full of drunks. I guess since I was always guided
> I forgot about all the steps!
> I'm glad to finally find a fellow sports fan who follows a school in
> the Big East conference...we play you guys there next week actually on
> Nov. 20...I just wrote a story about the game being televised on the
> Big East Network.
> 
> Thanks Kimberly for giving me a little wake-up call. I guess I'm kind
> of on an independence high from the basketball game last week.
> Your right that the basketball games are much calmer and a better
> atmosphere...they are inside a building and I don't know of anyone who
> drinks there...I don't even think they sell beer there.
> 
> Thanks so much...I want to be safe but also find and practice my
> independence as well.
> 
> Here is what I may do.
> 
> Let me know what you guys think about this considering what Kimberly said.
> 
> I have an extra ticket for the football game Saturday. I go to the
> game with someone. I go to the basketball game Friday by myself as I
> did last week and really try to see if I can practice
> independence...try to find my seat by asking for section numbers, and
> see if I can get to the concession stand...that sorta thing.
> 
> Then I can be somewhat independent on my birthday, I still get to do
> all the things I want to, but still be safe.
> 
> And Kimberly...thank you so much...you may have just kept me from a
> dizasterous and potentially very dangerous and harmful situation!
> 
> Hope your stay in Morgantown was a good one; it is a big problem that
> there are no blind people around here but I intend to do what I can to
> solve it eventually!
> 
> Kerri
> 
> On 11/9/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>> Kerry and all:
>> 
>> I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I have to jump in
>> here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the University of Louisville,
>> a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West Virginia.  I have
>> been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of
>> Louisville played West Virginia.
>> 
>> I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but  one of these
>> football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too many
>> sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  The area you would
>> be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite dangerous with
>> steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking lots are full of
>> drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and he has to be on
>> full alert while navigating these places himself.
>> 
>> The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the building on your
>> own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy and the venue is
>> not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there from some nice
>> people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  I will take all
>> the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these events by myself.
>> I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  There are usually
>> lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  Most of the time
>> someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually very nice.
>> Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person will get a
>> positive image of blind people.
>> 
>> Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe while maintaining
>> your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the
>> football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.
>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Jedi and all:
>>> 
>>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>>> Thanks so much!
>>> 
>>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>>> isn't.
>>> 
>>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>>> 
>>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>>> own?
>>> 
>>> Kerri
>>> Kerri
>>> 
>>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>> Kerri,
>>>> 
>>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>>>> 
>>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>>>> 
>>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>>>> 
>>>> Good luck.
>>>> 
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi
>>>> 
>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Hi All!
>>>> 
>>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>>>> events.
>>>> 
>>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>>>> are a major Division I school.
>>>> 
>>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.
>>>> 
>>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>>>> 
>>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>>>> 
>>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>>>> 
>>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>>> way?
>>>> 
>>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>>>> by myself.
>>>> 
>>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>>>> 
>>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>>> the fans?
>>>> 
>>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>>>> 
>>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>>>> 
>>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>>>> the same time.
>>>> 
>>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>>> confidence...
>>>> 
>>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>>> someone or not!
>>>>> Help!
>>>> 
>>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>>>> 
>>>>> Kerri
>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> _______________________________________________
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From gera1027 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 00:10:09 2010
From: gera1027 at gmail.com (Gerardo Corripio)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 18:10:09 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] sort of disappointed
References: <4CD9CA6C.1060206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <269a01cb806b$a5797e90$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1>

Hi Josh: have you tried Xavier Society for the blind? I recieve from them 
(they send abroad) the Masses Sunday Propers and The Catholic Review.
Hope this helps. Try googling Xavier Society for the Blind and see if 
anything comes up.
Gerardo
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Kennedy" <jkenn337 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 4:25 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] sort of disappointed


Hi

Well I looked and looked and there are no blind catholic organizations
in the United States. I found the association of blind catholics, but
its in the United Kingdom and I surely cannot go there for meetings, at
least not at this point.

I am also disappointed to report that after extensive searching the only
catholic materials I can get in daisy format either daisy text or daisy
audio is on bookshare nls and rfbd. But you have to be a member to join
those. There are many public domain documents on the ewtn website which
are just text or word documents. I don't think EWTN thought of blind
people when they designed their site and their library. Here is what
would be really cool.
1. there are public domain catholic bibles and catholic catechisms. the
baltimore catechism 1901 and douay rheims bible are public domain
materials. they may be older but they're certainly readable. But they
are not in daisy format! It would be nice to have a blind catholics
devision which would combine both ACB and nfb blind people who are
catholics, interested in catholicism or whoever wants to join for
curiosity sake. I haven't created a website in years though. I guess I
could use ms-word to help me with that. And maybe we could have online
bible study or catechism classes for people. I wonder if anybody in my
parish would want to help or could help out with this? I think maybe
I'll ask next time. I'm the only blind person in my parish. My wife
doesn't go with me but I hope someday she will decide to. I do take my
sighted son to church with me though.

Oh, for those who don't have word. if you want to use openoffice to make
daisy books you can use vinux in a virtual machine it has openoffice
writer its accessible in vinux right out of the box. just add the daisy
plugin and off you go making daisy books. and you can copy and paste
your books to and from windows and vinux with vmware tools just using
copy and paste commands. I have word in windows. But converting ewtn
library documents to daisy will be a big project. First I have to get
familiar with how save as daisy works. Also for daisy audio microsoft
anna or the acapela voices would be good for converting to daisy audio I
think. So what do you guys think? There have to be more blind people who
are catholic out there besides just me, perhaps my wife in the future
well so far she's not catholic...

Josh

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From missheather at comcast.net  Wed Nov 10 00:43:59 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 18:43:59 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College
	SportingEvents
References: <20101109033233.1040.47319@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal><AANLkTi=QtGxxbFJ1WGtg3TOi2DM0M-R=fERzT6c62uoR@mail.gmail.com><3D3B7406-476A-441F-B3A7-6164AAF35A37@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTi=4UoQYpTT9sjmM71_OW7s-4QtNBxtSXh2tvTQm@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCD044D39C9C4AA5A09FEA44D2C09A5F@heathersony>

Hi Kerri,
I'm sure you could visit the stadium ahead of time and spend as much 
time as you like learning your way around. It's important to separate 
the two tasks involved in what your wanting to do, i.e. independently 
travel at a crowded game. Going from place to place in the stadium is 
one task, negotiating the crowd and dealing with the environmental and 
social challenges the crowd creates is another task completely. I 
would work on them separately. A good knowledge of the layout of the 
stadium will give you confidence. When you feel confident, you look 
confident because you move confidently. This will automatically cut 
down on the offers of sighted assistance.

So, as you're obviously going to be a regular attender of games at 
this stadium, I'd start by learning the layout of the stadium when 
there's no one there. When you can independently travel from anywhere 
to anywhere else in the stadium, then you're probably ready to attempt 
the next task. Arielle's advice is great. Choose some small challenges 
for yourself on the day, when the crowd's there and out to have a good 
time. Decide on the challenges you would give yourself on the big day. 
For example, you could decide that you'd like sighted assistance 
navigating the crowded, rowdy parking lot. However, you could ask your 
sighted friend to go ahead of you through the turn-style and wait for 
you at the entrance to the walk-way up to the seating, or wait for you 
at the rest room, always a good place to visit before the game starts.

If you are reasonably familiar with the stadium then negotiating the 
place full of people will be much simpler and you'll be much more 
successful in achieving your ultimate goal, which is to travel 
independently and build your self-confidence.

Happy travels.

Regards,

Heather


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College 
SportingEvents


Hi Kimberly, Jedi and All:

Wow, Kimberly thank you so much!
I have been to our stadium several times and knew the parking lot was
huge, sprawling, and full of drunks. I guess since I was always guided
I forgot about all the steps!
I'm glad to finally find a fellow sports fan who follows a school in
the Big East conference...we play you guys there next week actually on
Nov. 20...I just wrote a story about the game being televised on the
Big East Network.

Thanks Kimberly for giving me a little wake-up call. I guess I'm kind
of on an independence high from the basketball game last week.
Your right that the basketball games are much calmer and a better
atmosphere...they are inside a building and I don't know of anyone who
drinks there...I don't even think they sell beer there.

Thanks so much...I want to be safe but also find and practice my
independence as well.

Here is what I may do.

Let me know what you guys think about this considering what Kimberly 
said.

I have an extra ticket for the football game Saturday. I go to the
game with someone. I go to the basketball game Friday by myself as I
did last week and really try to see if I can practice
independence...try to find my seat by asking for section numbers, and
see if I can get to the concession stand...that sorta thing.

Then I can be somewhat independent on my birthday, I still get to do
all the things I want to, but still be safe.

And Kimberly...thank you so much...you may have just kept me from a
dizasterous and potentially very dangerous and harmful situation!

Hope your stay in Morgantown was a good one; it is a big problem that
there are no blind people around here but I intend to do what I can to
solve it eventually!

Kerri

On 11/9/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
> Kerry and all:
>
> I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I have to 
> jump in
> here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the University of 
> Louisville,
> a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West Virginia. 
> I have
> been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of
> Louisville played West Virginia.
>
> I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but  one of 
> these
> football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too 
> many
> sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  The area 
> you would
> be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite 
> dangerous with
> steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking lots are 
> full of
> drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and he has to 
> be on
> full alert while navigating these places himself.
>
> The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the building 
> on your
> own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy and the 
> venue is
> not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there from some 
> nice
> people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  I will 
> take all
> the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these events by 
> myself.
>  I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  There are 
> usually
> lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  Most of the 
> time
> someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually very 
> nice.
> Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person will 
> get a
> positive image of blind people.
>
> Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe while 
> maintaining
> your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the
> football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.
> On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>
>> Hi Jedi and all:
>>
>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>> Thanks so much!
>>
>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with 
>> another
>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd 
>> love
>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I 
>> wouldn't
>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately 
>> there
>> isn't.
>>
>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up 
>> is
>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>> something like that...going with another blind woman would 
>> certainaly
>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>>
>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your 
>> right
>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, 
>> explain
>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early 
>> (so
>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on 
>> my
>> own?
>>
>> Kerri
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>> Kerri,
>>>
>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them 
>>> what
>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks 
>>> and
>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, 
>>> in
>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving 
>>> certain
>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>>>
>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is 
>>> a
>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so 
>>> they'll
>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to 
>>> be
>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a 
>>> friend to
>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>>>
>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. 
>>> I'll
>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to 
>>> stop
>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the 
>>> mercy
>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of 
>>> you as
>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with 
>>> that
>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just 
>>> to
>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a 
>>> safe
>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, 
>>> go
>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that 
>>> sex
>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>>>
>>> Good luck.
>>>
>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi
>>>
>>> Original message:
>>>> Hi All!
>>>
>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating 
>>>> sporting
>>>> events.
>>>
>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in 
>>>> Basketball and
>>>> are a major Division I school.
>>>
>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive 
>>>> attitude.
>>>
>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to 
>>>> practice
>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing 
>>>> what
>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your 
>>>> cane
>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game 
>>>> this
>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>>>
>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, 
>>>> then
>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and 
>>>> things
>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>>>
>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate 
>>>> their
>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass 
>>>> each
>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every 
>>>> once in
>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" 
>>>> Oh,
>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep 
>>>> going...kind
>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an 
>>>> airport. I
>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted 
>>>> people
>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is 
>>>> appreciated
>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some 
>>>> directions
>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>>>
>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't 
>>>> walk
>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look 
>>>> lost.
>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to 
>>>> doubt
>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction 
>>>> when
>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your 
>>>> unsure do
>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find 
>>>> someone
>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the 
>>>> right
>>>> way?
>>>
>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our 
>>>> games
>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I 
>>>> really
>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go 
>>>> with
>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try 
>>>> going
>>>> by myself.
>>>
>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I 
>>>> am
>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the 
>>>> drunks
>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>>>
>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is 
>>>> after the
>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get 
>>>> home at
>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could 
>>>> get
>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female 
>>>> to try
>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my 
>>>> cane
>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it 
>>>> just
>>>> the fans?
>>>
>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a 
>>>> female
>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone 
>>>> on
>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>>>
>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry 
>>>> for
>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl 
>>>> but
>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately 
>>>> want to
>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or 
>>>> whatever.
>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and 
>>>> her
>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to 
>>>> want
>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell 
>>>> them
>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>>>
>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them 
>>>> letting me
>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a 
>>>> sighted
>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we 
>>>> can
>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling 
>>>> them
>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that 
>>>> sort
>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice 
>>>> travel at
>>>> the same time.
>>>
>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>> confidence...
>>>
>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea 
>>>> of a
>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I 
>>>> don't
>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want 
>>>> to
>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether 
>>>> with
>>>> someone or not!
>>>> Help!
>>>
>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? 
>>>> I
>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you 
>>>> doing
>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my 
>>>> cane...I
>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>>>
>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>> for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
>>>
>>> --
>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. 
>>> Visit
>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>> for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>> for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
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From kobycox at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 00:52:49 2010
From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 18:52:49 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
Message-ID: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>

Hello all,

My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this list.
I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked to
the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day do
to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What could
I do? any advice will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.    


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Wed Nov 10 01:35:11 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 20:35:11 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
Message-ID: <C4C754BE-5812-4B92-9D24-FBBC715B77A9@mac.com>

Hi Koby!
Welcome to the list.
What I'd do is try to talk to my vision teachers.
If not, talk to your teachers and see if they can email you the papers directly.
I've been doing this since 8th grade, and it works for all subjects except math.

If not, talk to your parents and tell them to talk to the school.

You have a right to get your materials on time, and you have to fight for it.

I suggest you check the other 2 options first though, and see if you can bypass your vision teacher first.

(I do direct contact with all my teachers except math, because I need to have it in Braille so I can read the number systems properly)

Jorge


P.S., DId I see you at the NFB conference 2 days ago?




On Nov 9, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Koby Cox wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this list.
> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked to
> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day do
> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What could
> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.    
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From kobycox at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 01:50:40 2010
From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 19:50:40 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <C4C754BE-5812-4B92-9D24-FBBC715B77A9@mac.com>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
	<C4C754BE-5812-4B92-9D24-FBBC715B77A9@mac.com>
Message-ID: <000801cb8079$b15b7430$14125c90$@com>

Jorge,
No you didn't see me at the NFB confrence 2 days ago. I've already tried all
the suggestions that you put in your reply. When I try that I get no where.
I've been in contact with my state treasure of the federation to see about
scheduling a meeting. Would that be a good idea?
Thank you for any other advice.
Koby. 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jorge Paez
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:35 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member

Hi Koby!
Welcome to the list.
What I'd do is try to talk to my vision teachers.
If not, talk to your teachers and see if they can email you the papers
directly.
I've been doing this since 8th grade, and it works for all subjects except
math.

If not, talk to your parents and tell them to talk to the school.

You have a right to get your materials on time, and you have to fight for
it.

I suggest you check the other 2 options first though, and see if you can
bypass your vision teacher first.

(I do direct contact with all my teachers except math, because I need to
have it in Braille so I can read the number systems properly)

Jorge


P.S., DId I see you at the NFB conference 2 days ago?




On Nov 9, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Koby Cox wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
list.
> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked
to
> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day
do
> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
could
> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.    
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com


_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Wed Nov 10 01:54:43 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2010 20:54:43 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <000801cb8079$b15b7430$14125c90$@com>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
	<C4C754BE-5812-4B92-9D24-FBBC715B77A9@mac.com>
	<000801cb8079$b15b7430$14125c90$@com>
Message-ID: <5454D1DC-1FB3-4585-97E1-2E6567031D8D@mac.com>

Definitely.
Don't know what they could do personally, but I am sure they could help you figure out something to do.

Jorge



On Nov 9, 2010, at 8:50 PM, Koby Cox wrote:

> Jorge,
> No you didn't see me at the NFB confrence 2 days ago. I've already tried all
> the suggestions that you put in your reply. When I try that I get no where.
> I've been in contact with my state treasure of the federation to see about
> scheduling a meeting. Would that be a good idea?
> Thank you for any other advice.
> Koby. 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
> Of Jorge Paez
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:35 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
> 
> Hi Koby!
> Welcome to the list.
> What I'd do is try to talk to my vision teachers.
> If not, talk to your teachers and see if they can email you the papers
> directly.
> I've been doing this since 8th grade, and it works for all subjects except
> math.
> 
> If not, talk to your parents and tell them to talk to the school.
> 
> You have a right to get your materials on time, and you have to fight for
> it.
> 
> I suggest you check the other 2 options first though, and see if you can
> bypass your vision teacher first.
> 
> (I do direct contact with all my teachers except math, because I need to
> have it in Braille so I can read the number systems properly)
> 
> Jorge
> 
> 
> P.S., DId I see you at the NFB conference 2 days ago?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Nov 9, 2010, at 7:52 PM, Koby Cox wrote:
> 
>> Hello all,
>> 
>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
> list.
>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked
> to
>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day
> do
>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
> could
>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.    
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>> 
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 02:49:38 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 21:49:38 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
Message-ID: <57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do you 
have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille 
display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments 
emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable display, or 
emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own adaptation.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] New member


> Hello all,
>
> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this 
> list.
> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked 
> to
> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day 
> do
> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What 
> could
> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From kobycox at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 02:58:34 2010
From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 20:58:34 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
	<57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>

I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned except
wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to get on
to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Koby.

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Mark J. Cadigan
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member

I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do you 
have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille 
display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments 
emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable display, or

emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own adaptation.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] New member


> Hello all,
>
> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this 
> list.
> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked 
> to
> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day 
> do
> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What 
> could
> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 


_______________________________________________
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nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 03:09:16 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 22:09:16 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com><57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>
	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>
Message-ID: <C37D8E6DCE4A41BDB36FD65A26311668@SonyPC>

Ok. Well, reason I asked about what grade you are in, is because although it 
is good to start advocating for yourself as young as possible, teachers tend 
not to pay attention to you when you are younger. A possible way to get 
around the wireless access issue is to use a broadband card and access the 
internet over the phone towers. A good way to force the school to allow you 
onto the wireless is to include something into the IEP. Something such as 
requires a laptop with wireless access. Possibly they may make an exception 
for you to get onto the internet, or if you push the issue, they may 
modernize and create a student network. It is not all that difficult to do, 
have both a faculty and student network. Have you talked to your parents 
about the issue? Also, have you spoken to the student division in your 
state?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member


> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned 
> except
> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to get 
> on
> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> Koby.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Mark J. Cadigan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do 
> you
> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments
> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable display, 
> or
>
> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own adaptation.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>> list.
>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked
>> to
>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day
>> do
>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>> could
>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 03:16:53 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 22:16:53 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com><57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>
	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>
Message-ID: <101403FA0D584CE0B9DD39FE1907D8AC@SonyPC>

Alternatively, if it is impossible to get internet at school you could have 
the teachers email you things the day before so that you can download the 
attachments, and have a USB drive to transfer files such as tests that they 
can not email.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member


> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned 
> except
> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to get 
> on
> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> Koby.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Mark J. Cadigan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do 
> you
> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments
> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable display, 
> or
>
> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own adaptation.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>> list.
>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked
>> to
>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day
>> do
>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>> could
>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 03:33:06 2010
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 21:33:06 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <101403FA0D584CE0B9DD39FE1907D8AC@SonyPC>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
	<57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>
	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>
	<101403FA0D584CE0B9DD39FE1907D8AC@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikKh+f5CFrruQsY6+uVCFQKt0DkR_G6QYYhYu1o@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Koby.  It's nice to have you on the lists.  My name is Julie, and I
used a laptop throughout my second half of high school.  I was able to
get it written in my IEP that I needed a laptop and access to the
school's network.  The school didn't even argue about this because I
think at the time there were other students using their own computers
due to other disabilities that made writing by hand nearly impossible.
 If you can, talk to your vision teacher about this.

Mark is correct.  There are just some teachers who won't listen to
you.  No matter how many times you tell them, you or your brailles
needs everything ahead of time, they just don't care.  I think having
your vision teacher write a letter to them may work.  If not, talk to
your parents about it.  Contacting the local student division is
another really good suggestion.

If it's already in your IEP that you need assignments in certain
formats, I believe that it is wrong for your teachers to deny you
this.  Please correct me anyone if I am saying anything wrong, but
this is what I was told in high school.

On 11/9/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Alternatively, if it is impossible to get internet at school you could have
> the teachers email you things the day before so that you can download the
> attachments, and have a USB drive to transfer files such as tests that they
> can not email.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
>
>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>> except
>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to get
>> on
>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>> Koby.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do
>> you
>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments
>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable display,
>> or
>>
>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own adaptation.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>>> list.
>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked
>>> to
>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day
>>> do
>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>>> could
>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16


From kobycox at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 03:37:21 2010
From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 21:37:21 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <C37D8E6DCE4A41BDB36FD65A26311668@SonyPC>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com><57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>
	<C37D8E6DCE4A41BDB36FD65A26311668@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <002001cb8088$97d72cc0$c7858640$@com>

I have talked to my parents about this issue and they've emailed my vision
teacher and she's don nothing.
Koby.

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Mark J. Cadigan
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:09 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member

Ok. Well, reason I asked about what grade you are in, is because although it

is good to start advocating for yourself as young as possible, teachers tend

not to pay attention to you when you are younger. A possible way to get 
around the wireless access issue is to use a broadband card and access the 
internet over the phone towers. A good way to force the school to allow you 
onto the wireless is to include something into the IEP. Something such as 
requires a laptop with wireless access. Possibly they may make an exception 
for you to get onto the internet, or if you push the issue, they may 
modernize and create a student network. It is not all that difficult to do, 
have both a faculty and student network. Have you talked to your parents 
about the issue? Also, have you spoken to the student division in your 
state?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member


> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned 
> except
> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to get 
> on
> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> Koby.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Mark J. Cadigan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do 
> you
> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments
> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable display, 
> or
>
> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own adaptation.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>
>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>> list.
>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked
>> to
>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day
>> do
>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>> could
>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com



From kobycox at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 03:40:21 2010
From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 21:40:21 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikKh+f5CFrruQsY6+uVCFQKt0DkR_G6QYYhYu1o@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>	<57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>	<101403FA0D584CE0B9DD39FE1907D8AC@SonyPC>
	<AANLkTikKh+f5CFrruQsY6+uVCFQKt0DkR_G6QYYhYu1o@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <002101cb8089$04ce1280$0e6a3780$@com>

Julie,
It is already in my IEP that I need assignments in a certain format. It also
is in my IEP that I am allowed extra time to complete assignments.
Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Koby.

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Julie McGinnity
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:33 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member

Hi Koby.  It's nice to have you on the lists.  My name is Julie, and I
used a laptop throughout my second half of high school.  I was able to
get it written in my IEP that I needed a laptop and access to the
school's network.  The school didn't even argue about this because I
think at the time there were other students using their own computers
due to other disabilities that made writing by hand nearly impossible.
 If you can, talk to your vision teacher about this.

Mark is correct.  There are just some teachers who won't listen to
you.  No matter how many times you tell them, you or your brailles
needs everything ahead of time, they just don't care.  I think having
your vision teacher write a letter to them may work.  If not, talk to
your parents about it.  Contacting the local student division is
another really good suggestion.

If it's already in your IEP that you need assignments in certain
formats, I believe that it is wrong for your teachers to deny you
this.  Please correct me anyone if I am saying anything wrong, but
this is what I was told in high school.

On 11/9/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Alternatively, if it is impossible to get internet at school you could
have
> the teachers email you things the day before so that you can download the
> attachments, and have a USB drive to transfer files such as tests that
they
> can not email.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
>
>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>> except
>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to get
>> on
>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>> Koby.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do
>> you
>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments
>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable display,
>> or
>>
>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own
adaptation.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>>> list.
>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked
>>> to
>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day
>>> do
>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>>> could
>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co
m
>


-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 03:41:06 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 22:41:06 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikKh+f5CFrruQsY6+uVCFQKt0DkR_G6QYYhYu1o@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com><57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC><001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com><101403FA0D584CE0B9DD39FE1907D8AC@SonyPC>
	<AANLkTikKh+f5CFrruQsY6+uVCFQKt0DkR_G6QYYhYu1o@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0C28377F99D84D6D906113F57D8187E0@SonyPC>

I am definitely a fan of using a laptop. I have used a laptop in school 
since 2nd grade, and that was a wile ago. Lol. Don't u love windows 98? One 
of the first computers I have ever used was an apple 2. I also used dos a 
bit when I was little. Lol. The school had old equipment, but my 25lb 
windows 98 laptop was state of the art.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member


> Hi Koby.  It's nice to have you on the lists.  My name is Julie, and I
> used a laptop throughout my second half of high school.  I was able to
> get it written in my IEP that I needed a laptop and access to the
> school's network.  The school didn't even argue about this because I
> think at the time there were other students using their own computers
> due to other disabilities that made writing by hand nearly impossible.
> If you can, talk to your vision teacher about this.
>
> Mark is correct.  There are just some teachers who won't listen to
> you.  No matter how many times you tell them, you or your brailles
> needs everything ahead of time, they just don't care.  I think having
> your vision teacher write a letter to them may work.  If not, talk to
> your parents about it.  Contacting the local student division is
> another really good suggestion.
>
> If it's already in your IEP that you need assignments in certain
> formats, I believe that it is wrong for your teachers to deny you
> this.  Please correct me anyone if I am saying anything wrong, but
> this is what I was told in high school.
>
> On 11/9/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Alternatively, if it is impossible to get internet at school you could 
>> have
>> the teachers email you things the day before so that you can download the
>> attachments, and have a USB drive to transfer files such as tests that 
>> they
>> can not email.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>>
>>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>>> except
>>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to 
>>> get
>>> on
>>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>> Koby.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do
>>> you
>>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
>>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments
>>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable 
>>> display,
>>> or
>>>
>>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own 
>>> adaptation.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>>>> list.
>>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've 
>>>> talked
>>>> to
>>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that 
>>>> day
>>>> do
>>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>>>> could
>>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
> 



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 03:49:26 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 22:49:26 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <002001cb8088$97d72cc0$c7858640$@com>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com><57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com><C37D8E6DCE4A41BDB36FD65A26311668@SonyPC>
	<002001cb8088$97d72cc0$c7858640$@com>
Message-ID: <A2D75249B8954AE282BB7C32C89294FA@SonyPC>

Try writing a letter to the principle and CC the superintendent of schools. 
Write it in hard copy, and send it registered mail, or hand deliver it. 
Always keep records of every move you make in regards to the school system. 
They will try to get out of there obligations if you give them the smallest 
loophole. Knowing a good lawyer or a professional advocate is also 
beneficial. Hopefully it doesn't come down to playing hardball, but don't 
back down, and stand your ground. Not being able to do your work at the same 
time as your classmates due to accessibility issues is not acceptable. Also, 
does your state have an active student division; perhaps you can email them, 
and get additional solutions tailored to the laws of your state.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member


>I have talked to my parents about this issue and they've emailed my vision
> teacher and she's don nothing.
> Koby.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Mark J. Cadigan
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:09 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
> Ok. Well, reason I asked about what grade you are in, is because although 
> it
>
> is good to start advocating for yourself as young as possible, teachers 
> tend
>
> not to pay attention to you when you are younger. A possible way to get
> around the wireless access issue is to use a broadband card and access the
> internet over the phone towers. A good way to force the school to allow 
> you
> onto the wireless is to include something into the IEP. Something such as
> requires a laptop with wireless access. Possibly they may make an 
> exception
> for you to get onto the internet, or if you push the issue, they may
> modernize and create a student network. It is not all that difficult to 
> do,
> have both a faculty and student network. Have you talked to your parents
> about the issue? Also, have you spoken to the student division in your
> state?
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
>
>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>> except
>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to get
>> on
>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>> Koby.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do
>> you
>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments
>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable display,
>> or
>>
>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own 
>> adaptation.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>>
>>> Hello all,
>>>
>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>>> list.
>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked
>>> to
>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day
>>> do
>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>>> could
>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
> 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 03:52:20 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 22:52:20 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>	<57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>	<101403FA0D584CE0B9DD39FE1907D8AC@SonyPC><AANLkTikKh+f5CFrruQsY6+uVCFQKt0DkR_G6QYYhYu1o@mail.gmail.com>
	<002101cb8089$04ce1280$0e6a3780$@com>
Message-ID: <C9ABCB7BD1F94764A1349C4D32D7E9A1@hometwxakonvzn>

My vision teacher would fought to have permission for me to use the internet 
access. Julie, are you a college student? If so, what's your major? I'm also 
on skype. If any body wishes to contact me. My skype name is 
smallistbaby1979
RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member


> Julie,
> It is already in my IEP that I need assignments in a certain format. It 
> also
> is in my IEP that I am allowed extra time to complete assignments.
> Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> Koby.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
> Behalf
> Of Julie McGinnity
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:33 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
> Hi Koby.  It's nice to have you on the lists.  My name is Julie, and I
> used a laptop throughout my second half of high school.  I was able to
> get it written in my IEP that I needed a laptop and access to the
> school's network.  The school didn't even argue about this because I
> think at the time there were other students using their own computers
> due to other disabilities that made writing by hand nearly impossible.
> If you can, talk to your vision teacher about this.
>
> Mark is correct.  There are just some teachers who won't listen to
> you.  No matter how many times you tell them, you or your brailles
> needs everything ahead of time, they just don't care.  I think having
> your vision teacher write a letter to them may work.  If not, talk to
> your parents about it.  Contacting the local student division is
> another really good suggestion.
>
> If it's already in your IEP that you need assignments in certain
> formats, I believe that it is wrong for your teachers to deny you
> this.  Please correct me anyone if I am saying anything wrong, but
> this is what I was told in high school.
>
> On 11/9/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Alternatively, if it is impossible to get internet at school you could
> have
>> the teachers email you things the day before so that you can download the
>> attachments, and have a USB drive to transfer files such as tests that
> they
>> can not email.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>>
>>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>>> except
>>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to 
>>> get
>>> on
>>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>> Koby.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do
>>> you
>>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
>>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments
>>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable 
>>> display,
>>> or
>>>
>>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own
> adaptation.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>>>> list.
>>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've 
>>>> talked
>>>> to
>>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that 
>>>> day
>>>> do
>>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>>>> could
>>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co
> m
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 03:57:27 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 22:57:27 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com><57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com><C37D8E6DCE4A41BDB36FD65A26311668@SonyPC><002001cb8088$97d72cc0$c7858640$@com>
	<A2D75249B8954AE282BB7C32C89294FA@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <F2EE7F6B361B422BB63F933DBDD3A274@hometwxakonvzn>

That is discrimination!
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member


> Try writing a letter to the principle and CC the superintendent of 
> schools. Write it in hard copy, and send it registered mail, or hand 
> deliver it. Always keep records of every move you make in regards to the 
> school system. They will try to get out of there obligations if you give 
> them the smallest loophole. Knowing a good lawyer or a professional 
> advocate is also beneficial. Hopefully it doesn't come down to playing 
> hardball, but don't back down, and stand your ground. Not being able to do 
> your work at the same time as your classmates due to accessibility issues 
> is not acceptable. Also, does your state have an active student division; 
> perhaps you can email them, and get additional solutions tailored to the 
> laws of your state.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
>
>>I have talked to my parents about this issue and they've emailed my vision
>> teacher and she's don nothing.
>> Koby.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>> Behalf
>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:09 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>> Ok. Well, reason I asked about what grade you are in, is because although 
>> it
>>
>> is good to start advocating for yourself as young as possible, teachers 
>> tend
>>
>> not to pay attention to you when you are younger. A possible way to get
>> around the wireless access issue is to use a broadband card and access 
>> the
>> internet over the phone towers. A good way to force the school to allow 
>> you
>> onto the wireless is to include something into the IEP. Something such as
>> requires a laptop with wireless access. Possibly they may make an 
>> exception
>> for you to get onto the internet, or if you push the issue, they may
>> modernize and create a student network. It is not all that difficult to 
>> do,
>> have both a faculty and student network. Have you talked to your parents
>> about the issue? Also, have you spoken to the student division in your
>> state?
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>>
>>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>>> except
>>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to 
>>> get
>>> on
>>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>> Koby.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do
>>> you
>>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
>>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments
>>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable 
>>> display,
>>> or
>>>
>>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own 
>>> adaptation.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hello all,
>>>>
>>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>>>> list.
>>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've 
>>>> talked
>>>> to
>>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that 
>>>> day
>>>> do
>>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>>>> could
>>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 04:00:29 2010
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 22:00:29 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <C9ABCB7BD1F94764A1349C4D32D7E9A1@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
	<57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>
	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>
	<101403FA0D584CE0B9DD39FE1907D8AC@SonyPC>
	<AANLkTikKh+f5CFrruQsY6+uVCFQKt0DkR_G6QYYhYu1o@mail.gmail.com>
	<002101cb8089$04ce1280$0e6a3780$@com>
	<C9ABCB7BD1F94764A1349C4D32D7E9A1@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik36o7WCMx2yPbhRDLz-07nB4yN=sgP6CTMFSLA@mail.gmail.com>

Can you take it up with the principal at your school, or is there a
teacher who is willing to work with you who can help you out with
this?  Better yet, maybe your parents can talk to the boss of your
vision teacher if she is not doing her job properly?  I don't know
proper ways to do these things.  I really hope an education major or
someone can help you out too.

On 11/9/10, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
> My vision teacher would fought to have permission for me to use the internet
> access. Julie, are you a college student? If so, what's your major? I'm also
> on skype. If any body wishes to contact me. My skype name is
> smallistbaby1979
> RJ
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
>
>> Julie,
>> It is already in my IEP that I need assignments in a certain format. It
>> also
>> is in my IEP that I am allowed extra time to complete assignments.
>> Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>> Koby.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>> Behalf
>> Of Julie McGinnity
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:33 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>> Hi Koby.  It's nice to have you on the lists.  My name is Julie, and I
>> used a laptop throughout my second half of high school.  I was able to
>> get it written in my IEP that I needed a laptop and access to the
>> school's network.  The school didn't even argue about this because I
>> think at the time there were other students using their own computers
>> due to other disabilities that made writing by hand nearly impossible.
>> If you can, talk to your vision teacher about this.
>>
>> Mark is correct.  There are just some teachers who won't listen to
>> you.  No matter how many times you tell them, you or your brailles
>> needs everything ahead of time, they just don't care.  I think having
>> your vision teacher write a letter to them may work.  If not, talk to
>> your parents about it.  Contacting the local student division is
>> another really good suggestion.
>>
>> If it's already in your IEP that you need assignments in certain
>> formats, I believe that it is wrong for your teachers to deny you
>> this.  Please correct me anyone if I am saying anything wrong, but
>> this is what I was told in high school.
>>
>> On 11/9/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Alternatively, if it is impossible to get internet at school you could
>> have
>>> the teachers email you things the day before so that you can download the
>>> attachments, and have a USB drive to transfer files such as tests that
>> they
>>> can not email.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>>>> except
>>>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to
>>>> get
>>>> on
>>>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>>> Koby.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do
>>>> you
>>>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
>>>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having assignments
>>>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable
>>>> display,
>>>> or
>>>>
>>>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own
>> adaptation.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>>>>> list.
>>>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've
>>>>> talked
>>>>> to
>>>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>>>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that
>>>>> day
>>>>> do
>>>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>>>>> could
>>>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co
>> m
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Julie McG
>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>> Eyes for the Blind
>>
>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>> life."
>> John 3:16
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16


From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 04:04:10 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 23:04:10 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com><57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC><001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com><101403FA0D584CE0B9DD39FE1907D8AC@SonyPC><AANLkTikKh+f5CFrruQsY6+uVCFQKt0DkR_G6QYYhYu1o@mail.gmail.com><002101cb8089$04ce1280$0e6a3780$@com><C9ABCB7BD1F94764A1349C4D32D7E9A1@hometwxakonvzn>
	<AANLkTik36o7WCMx2yPbhRDLz-07nB4yN=sgP6CTMFSLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C130391AEB5C48C58E3C7F99D1F1981B@hometwxakonvzn>

I don't need the help Jullie, I was asking you what you were majioring in. 
RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member


> Can you take it up with the principal at your school, or is there a
> teacher who is willing to work with you who can help you out with
> this?  Better yet, maybe your parents can talk to the boss of your
> vision teacher if she is not doing her job properly?  I don't know
> proper ways to do these things.  I really hope an education major or
> someone can help you out too.
>
> On 11/9/10, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:
>> My vision teacher would fought to have permission for me to use the 
>> internet
>> access. Julie, are you a college student? If so, what's your major? I'm 
>> also
>> on skype. If any body wishes to contact me. My skype name is
>> smallistbaby1979
>> RJ
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>>
>>> Julie,
>>> It is already in my IEP that I need assignments in a certain format. It
>>> also
>>> is in my IEP that I am allowed extra time to complete assignments.
>>> Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>> Koby.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Julie McGinnity
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:33 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>> Hi Koby.  It's nice to have you on the lists.  My name is Julie, and I
>>> used a laptop throughout my second half of high school.  I was able to
>>> get it written in my IEP that I needed a laptop and access to the
>>> school's network.  The school didn't even argue about this because I
>>> think at the time there were other students using their own computers
>>> due to other disabilities that made writing by hand nearly impossible.
>>> If you can, talk to your vision teacher about this.
>>>
>>> Mark is correct.  There are just some teachers who won't listen to
>>> you.  No matter how many times you tell them, you or your brailles
>>> needs everything ahead of time, they just don't care.  I think having
>>> your vision teacher write a letter to them may work.  If not, talk to
>>> your parents about it.  Contacting the local student division is
>>> another really good suggestion.
>>>
>>> If it's already in your IEP that you need assignments in certain
>>> formats, I believe that it is wrong for your teachers to deny you
>>> this.  Please correct me anyone if I am saying anything wrong, but
>>> this is what I was told in high school.
>>>
>>> On 11/9/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Alternatively, if it is impossible to get internet at school you could
>>> have
>>>> the teachers email you things the day before so that you can download 
>>>> the
>>>> attachments, and have a USB drive to transfer files such as tests that
>>> they
>>>> can not email.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>>>>> except
>>>>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to
>>>>> get
>>>>> on
>>>>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>>>> Koby.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, 
>>>>> do
>>>>> you
>>>>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable 
>>>>> Braille
>>>>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having 
>>>>> assignments
>>>>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable
>>>>> display,
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own
>>> adaptation.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've
>>>>>> talked
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I 
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>>>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that
>>>>>> day
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. 
>>>>>> What
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.co
>>> m
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Julie McG
>>> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
>>> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
>>> Eyes for the Blind
>>>
>>> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
>>> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
>>> life."
>>> John 3:16
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 04:26:49 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 23:26:49 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <F2EE7F6B361B422BB63F933DBDD3A274@hometwxakonvzn>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com><57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com><C37D8E6DCE4A41BDB36FD65A26311668@SonyPC><002001cb8088$97d72cc0$c7858640$@com><A2D75249B8954AE282BB7C32C89294FA@SonyPC>
	<F2EE7F6B361B422BB63F933DBDD3A274@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <6D4461281B454C1880E8C0438FC36206@SonyPC>

Clearly, but school systems still engage in it. I find that the only thing 
they listen to is playing hardball and the DOE, but they don't even do that.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:57 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member


> That is discrimination!
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
>
>> Try writing a letter to the principle and CC the superintendent of 
>> schools. Write it in hard copy, and send it registered mail, or hand 
>> deliver it. Always keep records of every move you make in regards to the 
>> school system. They will try to get out of there obligations if you give 
>> them the smallest loophole. Knowing a good lawyer or a professional 
>> advocate is also beneficial. Hopefully it doesn't come down to playing 
>> hardball, but don't back down, and stand your ground. Not being able to 
>> do your work at the same time as your classmates due to accessibility 
>> issues is not acceptable. Also, does your state have an active student 
>> division; perhaps you can email them, and get additional solutions 
>> tailored to the laws of your state.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:37 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>>
>>>I have talked to my parents about this issue and they've emailed my 
>>>vision
>>> teacher and she's don nothing.
>>> Koby.
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On 
>>> Behalf
>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:09 PM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>> Ok. Well, reason I asked about what grade you are in, is because 
>>> although it
>>>
>>> is good to start advocating for yourself as young as possible, teachers 
>>> tend
>>>
>>> not to pay attention to you when you are younger. A possible way to get
>>> around the wireless access issue is to use a broadband card and access 
>>> the
>>> internet over the phone towers. A good way to force the school to allow 
>>> you
>>> onto the wireless is to include something into the IEP. Something such 
>>> as
>>> requires a laptop with wireless access. Possibly they may make an 
>>> exception
>>> for you to get onto the internet, or if you push the issue, they may
>>> modernize and create a student network. It is not all that difficult to 
>>> do,
>>> have both a faculty and student network. Have you talked to your parents
>>> about the issue? Also, have you spoken to the student division in your
>>> state?
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>>>> except
>>>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to 
>>>> get
>>>> on
>>>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>>> Koby.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>
>>>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do
>>>> you
>>>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
>>>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having 
>>>> assignments
>>>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable 
>>>> display,
>>>> or
>>>>
>>>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own 
>>>> adaptation.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>
>>>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>>>>> list.
>>>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've 
>>>>> talked
>>>>> to
>>>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>>>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that 
>>>>> day
>>>>> do
>>>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>>>>> could
>>>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Wed Nov 10 04:27:25 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 20:27:25 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] In Lue of Recent Posts
Message-ID: <644D87E1DAAE434EA88B2AA6F378D35B@stanford.edu>

In lue of recent posts, I would like to pose the following general question:
As students, at all levels of education, where do we get help and how do we do it when the people who are supposed to provide services and assistance do not do it?
Just for general discussion.

From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 04:47:01 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 23:47:01 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] In Lue of Recent Posts
References: <644D87E1DAAE434EA88B2AA6F378D35B@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <7502784B47FF4ACB90D742241DC7BBDB@hometwxakonvzn>

That's a good question
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "NABS-L" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 11:27 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] In Lue of Recent Posts


> In lue of recent posts, I would like to pose the following general 
> question:
> As students, at all levels of education, where do we get help and how do 
> we do it when the people who are supposed to provide services and 
> assistance do not do it?
> Just for general discussion.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 04:51:13 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 23:51:13 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Discrimination
Message-ID: <AE732B741DD44A3EAEF9370602507795@hometwxakonvzn>

Here's what happens when you stand up for your rights! Please read the attached letter. RJ
-------------- next part --------------
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From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 04:53:14 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 21:53:14 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <6D4461281B454C1880E8C0438FC36206@SonyPC>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
	<57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>
	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>
	<C37D8E6DCE4A41BDB36FD65A26311668@SonyPC>
	<002001cb8088$97d72cc0$c7858640$@com>
	<A2D75249B8954AE282BB7C32C89294FA@SonyPC>
	<F2EE7F6B361B422BB63F933DBDD3A274@hometwxakonvzn>
	<6D4461281B454C1880E8C0438FC36206@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimcosfcrbUhtOnJ8z4tkP+GrmmE8iNbbJfysuO-@mail.gmail.com>

Dear Coby and all,
  I'd try to contact your vission teacher, one more time, directly.
Spam her answering machine, tell her "I need this now" instead of
"please let me know what we can do."  Maybe that'll help.
  But it sounds like you've got kinda a tough vission teacher to work
with.  Definitely don't be afraid to stand your ground and talk to
your principal, a teacher, or whoever you need to.  If you have a
teacher who's easy to work with, maybe see if they can talk to your
other teachers and tell them how easy it is to email assignments, put
them on a flash drive, etc.
  And that reminds me, oftentimes I'd just bring my flash drive to
class, my teacher would put the assignment/test/whatever on there
and...there you go.  In my experience through high school, teachers
had computer coppies of almost everything.  And...maybe having a copy
of your IEP with you to show the teacher if he/she's being annoying,
just to put the weight of contract behind what you're saying, couldn't
hurt.
  But, forpretty much all of my teachers, just saying "you know, if
you email me this assignment, or let me put it on my flash drive, it's
really works easy and it saves lots of people lots of time brailling."
 If they're not comfortable with you using your own flash drive
(cheating and the like), then see if you can borrow a flash drive from
the teacher for the class period?  Just my two cents, take it or leave
it.
  Respectfully,
Kirt

On 11/9/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Clearly, but school systems still engage in it. I find that the only thing
> they listen to is playing hardball and the DOE, but they don't even do that.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:57 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>
>
>> That is discrimination!
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>>
>>> Try writing a letter to the principle and CC the superintendent of
>>> schools. Write it in hard copy, and send it registered mail, or hand
>>> deliver it. Always keep records of every move you make in regards to the
>>> school system. They will try to get out of there obligations if you give
>>> them the smallest loophole. Knowing a good lawyer or a professional
>>> advocate is also beneficial. Hopefully it doesn't come down to playing
>>> hardball, but don't back down, and stand your ground. Not being able to
>>> do your work at the same time as your classmates due to accessibility
>>> issues is not acceptable. Also, does your state have an active student
>>> division; perhaps you can email them, and get additional solutions
>>> tailored to the laws of your state.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:37 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have talked to my parents about this issue and they've emailed my
>>>>vision
>>>> teacher and she's don nothing.
>>>> Koby.
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>> Behalf
>>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:09 PM
>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>
>>>> Ok. Well, reason I asked about what grade you are in, is because
>>>> although it
>>>>
>>>> is good to start advocating for yourself as young as possible, teachers
>>>> tend
>>>>
>>>> not to pay attention to you when you are younger. A possible way to get
>>>> around the wireless access issue is to use a broadband card and access
>>>> the
>>>> internet over the phone towers. A good way to force the school to allow
>>>> you
>>>> onto the wireless is to include something into the IEP. Something such
>>>> as
>>>> requires a laptop with wireless access. Possibly they may make an
>>>> exception
>>>> for you to get onto the internet, or if you push the issue, they may
>>>> modernize and create a student network. It is not all that difficult to
>>>> do,
>>>> have both a faculty and student network. Have you talked to your parents
>>>> about the issue? Also, have you spoken to the student division in your
>>>> state?
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>>>>> except
>>>>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to
>>>>> get
>>>>> on
>>>>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>>>> Koby.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And, do
>>>>> you
>>>>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable Braille
>>>>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having
>>>>> assignments
>>>>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable
>>>>> display,
>>>>> or
>>>>>
>>>>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own
>>>>> adaptation.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>>>>>> list.
>>>>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've
>>>>>> talked
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
>>>>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>>>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that
>>>>>> day
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What
>>>>>> could
>>>>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>


From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Wed Nov 10 05:02:35 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 21:02:35 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] In Lue of Recent Posts
References: <644D87E1DAAE434EA88B2AA6F378D35B@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <00b101cb8094$7da806b0$6601a8c0@server>

Hi Nicole,
I think this is a great question, and a very important one which I have been 
thinking about quite a lot lately.  I believe this is the purpose of the 
NFB.  When the services which are supposed to exist do not materialize, the 
student needs to contact the NFB in Maryland, so that officials with NFB can 
contact the schools or organizations not providing services and pressure 
them into doing what they are supposed to be doing.  I believe it is still 
the case that the NFB boasts a membership of 50,000, so a reminder from NFB 
headquarters that they can bring into play 50,000 blind people should be 
pretty persuasive to the delinquent service provider.
Best,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com>
To: "NABS-L" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:27 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] In Lue of Recent Posts


> In lue of recent posts, I would like to pose the following general 
> question:
> As students, at all levels of education, where do we get help and how do 
> we do it when the people who are supposed to provide services and 
> assistance do not do it?
> Just for general discussion.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net 



From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 05:50:58 2010
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 23:50:58 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimcosfcrbUhtOnJ8z4tkP+GrmmE8iNbbJfysuO-@mail.gmail.com>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
	<57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC>
	<001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com>
	<C37D8E6DCE4A41BDB36FD65A26311668@SonyPC>
	<002001cb8088$97d72cc0$c7858640$@com>
	<A2D75249B8954AE282BB7C32C89294FA@SonyPC>
	<F2EE7F6B361B422BB63F933DBDD3A274@hometwxakonvzn>
	<6D4461281B454C1880E8C0438FC36206@SonyPC>
	<AANLkTimcosfcrbUhtOnJ8z4tkP+GrmmE8iNbbJfysuO-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi==JfPCd6jdmU7Pq58ZsCEnJHGcWR9dv7q75-v0@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I forgot about using the flash drive.  I used to do that as well.

Well, I was thinking descrimination, but I just didn't want to say it.
 I wanted to be sure, but it sounds like Koby, you are doing all the
right things.  It sounds like your teachers just don't get it.  As
long as your parents are behind you, the school principal should
listen to you.

I don't know anything about working with the boss of your vision
teacher though.  I am a music major(I think someone was asking), and I
don't know how to go about things like this.  In our state there was a
whole district who served other districts in the community.  It's hard
to explain, but there was a deffinite chain of command.  If I had a
problem(and kept having problems) with my vision teacher, I(or more
likely my parents) would have to contact her boss.  I never did
because I had great vision teachers, but it would have been easy
enough to do.  I just don't know how your system works.

Keep working at it!  It is descrimination.  They cannot defy the IEP!

On 11/9/10, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Coby and all,
>   I'd try to contact your vission teacher, one more time, directly.
> Spam her answering machine, tell her "I need this now" instead of
> "please let me know what we can do."  Maybe that'll help.
>   But it sounds like you've got kinda a tough vission teacher to work
> with.  Definitely don't be afraid to stand your ground and talk to
> your principal, a teacher, or whoever you need to.  If you have a
> teacher who's easy to work with, maybe see if they can talk to your
> other teachers and tell them how easy it is to email assignments, put
> them on a flash drive, etc.
>   And that reminds me, oftentimes I'd just bring my flash drive to
> class, my teacher would put the assignment/test/whatever on there
> and...there you go.  In my experience through high school, teachers
> had computer coppies of almost everything.  And...maybe having a copy
> of your IEP with you to show the teacher if he/she's being annoying,
> just to put the weight of contract behind what you're saying, couldn't
> hurt.
>   But, forpretty much all of my teachers, just saying "you know, if
> you email me this assignment, or let me put it on my flash drive, it's
> really works easy and it saves lots of people lots of time brailling."
>  If they're not comfortable with you using your own flash drive
> (cheating and the like), then see if you can borrow a flash drive from
> the teacher for the class period?  Just my two cents, take it or leave
> it.
>   Respectfully,
> Kirt
>
> On 11/9/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Clearly, but school systems still engage in it. I find that the only thing
>> they listen to is playing hardball and the DOE, but they don't even do
>> that.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:57 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>
>>
>>> That is discrimination!
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:49 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>>
>>>> Try writing a letter to the principle and CC the superintendent of
>>>> schools. Write it in hard copy, and send it registered mail, or hand
>>>> deliver it. Always keep records of every move you make in regards to the
>>>> school system. They will try to get out of there obligations if you give
>>>> them the smallest loophole. Knowing a good lawyer or a professional
>>>> advocate is also beneficial. Hopefully it doesn't come down to playing
>>>> hardball, but don't back down, and stand your ground. Not being able to
>>>> do your work at the same time as your classmates due to accessibility
>>>> issues is not acceptable. Also, does your state have an active student
>>>> division; perhaps you can email them, and get additional solutions
>>>> tailored to the laws of your state.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:37 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I have talked to my parents about this issue and they've emailed my
>>>>>vision
>>>>> teacher and she's don nothing.
>>>>> Koby.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>> Behalf
>>>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:09 PM
>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok. Well, reason I asked about what grade you are in, is because
>>>>> although it
>>>>>
>>>>> is good to start advocating for yourself as young as possible, teachers
>>>>> tend
>>>>>
>>>>> not to pay attention to you when you are younger. A possible way to get
>>>>> around the wireless access issue is to use a broadband card and access
>>>>> the
>>>>> internet over the phone towers. A good way to force the school to allow
>>>>> you
>>>>> onto the wireless is to include something into the IEP. Something such
>>>>> as
>>>>> requires a laptop with wireless access. Possibly they may make an
>>>>> exception
>>>>> for you to get onto the internet, or if you push the issue, they may
>>>>> modernize and create a student network. It is not all that difficult to
>>>>> do,
>>>>> have both a faculty and student network. Have you talked to your
>>>>> parents
>>>>> about the issue? Also, have you spoken to the student division in your
>>>>> state?
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>>>>>> except
>>>>>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> on
>>>>>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
>>>>>> Koby.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And,
>>>>>> do
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable
>>>>>> Braille
>>>>>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having
>>>>>> assignments
>>>>>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable
>>>>>> display,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>>
>>>>>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own
>>>>>> adaptation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this
>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've
>>>>>>> talked
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>>>>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that
>>>>>>> day
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format.
>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16


From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Wed Nov 10 07:14:28 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 23:14:28 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] File Formats Re:  New member
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com><57A22E6745C44352941FF2C94CD4390B@SonyPC><001d01cb8083$2e549f80$8afdde80$@com><C37D8E6DCE4A41BDB36FD65A26311668@SonyPC><002001cb8088$97d72cc0$c7858640$@com><A2D75249B8954AE282BB7C32C89294FA@SonyPC><F2EE7F6B361B422BB63F933DBDD3A274@hometwxakonvzn><6D4461281B454C1880E8C0438FC36206@SonyPC><AANLkTimcosfcrbUhtOnJ8z4tkP+GrmmE8iNbbJfysuO-@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi==JfPCd6jdmU7Pq58ZsCEnJHGcWR9dv7q75-v0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <739FF99591174235B9D399F67C8420CF@stanford.edu>

Just a comment or two about emailing files and getting them on USB drives. 
In best case scenario, if it is a word document without pictures, it usually 
is not a problem. However, these days, there are lots of partially or 
completely inaccessible file formats. So, if anyone does decide to get files 
directly from a teacher, he/she should discuss what format works best. Just 
my 2 cents.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member


> Yes, I forgot about using the flash drive.  I used to do that as well.
>
> Well, I was thinking descrimination, but I just didn't want to say it.
> I wanted to be sure, but it sounds like Koby, you are doing all the
> right things.  It sounds like your teachers just don't get it.  As
> long as your parents are behind you, the school principal should
> listen to you.
>
> I don't know anything about working with the boss of your vision
> teacher though.  I am a music major(I think someone was asking), and I
> don't know how to go about things like this.  In our state there was a
> whole district who served other districts in the community.  It's hard
> to explain, but there was a deffinite chain of command.  If I had a
> problem(and kept having problems) with my vision teacher, I(or more
> likely my parents) would have to contact her boss.  I never did
> because I had great vision teachers, but it would have been easy
> enough to do.  I just don't know how your system works.
>
> Keep working at it!  It is descrimination.  They cannot defy the IEP!
>
> On 11/9/10, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Dear Coby and all,
>>   I'd try to contact your vission teacher, one more time, directly.
>> Spam her answering machine, tell her "I need this now" instead of
>> "please let me know what we can do."  Maybe that'll help.
>>   But it sounds like you've got kinda a tough vission teacher to work
>> with.  Definitely don't be afraid to stand your ground and talk to
>> your principal, a teacher, or whoever you need to.  If you have a
>> teacher who's easy to work with, maybe see if they can talk to your
>> other teachers and tell them how easy it is to email assignments, put
>> them on a flash drive, etc.
>>   And that reminds me, oftentimes I'd just bring my flash drive to
>> class, my teacher would put the assignment/test/whatever on there
>> and...there you go.  In my experience through high school, teachers
>> had computer coppies of almost everything.  And...maybe having a copy
>> of your IEP with you to show the teacher if he/she's being annoying,
>> just to put the weight of contract behind what you're saying, couldn't
>> hurt.
>>   But, forpretty much all of my teachers, just saying "you know, if
>> you email me this assignment, or let me put it on my flash drive, it's
>> really works easy and it saves lots of people lots of time brailling."
>>  If they're not comfortable with you using your own flash drive
>> (cheating and the like), then see if you can borrow a flash drive from
>> the teacher for the class period?  Just my two cents, take it or leave
>> it.
>>   Respectfully,
>> Kirt
>>
>> On 11/9/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Clearly, but school systems still engage in it. I find that the only 
>>> thing
>>> they listen to is playing hardball and the DOE, but they don't even do
>>> that.
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "RJ Sandefur" <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:57 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>
>>>
>>>> That is discrimination!
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:49 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Try writing a letter to the principle and CC the superintendent of
>>>>> schools. Write it in hard copy, and send it registered mail, or hand
>>>>> deliver it. Always keep records of every move you make in regards to 
>>>>> the
>>>>> school system. They will try to get out of there obligations if you 
>>>>> give
>>>>> them the smallest loophole. Knowing a good lawyer or a professional
>>>>> advocate is also beneficial. Hopefully it doesn't come down to playing
>>>>> hardball, but don't back down, and stand your ground. Not being able 
>>>>> to
>>>>> do your work at the same time as your classmates due to accessibility
>>>>> issues is not acceptable. Also, does your state have an active student
>>>>> division; perhaps you can email them, and get additional solutions
>>>>> tailored to the laws of your state.
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 10:37 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I have talked to my parents about this issue and they've emailed my
>>>>>>vision
>>>>>> teacher and she's don nothing.
>>>>>> Koby.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:09 PM
>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok. Well, reason I asked about what grade you are in, is because
>>>>>> although it
>>>>>>
>>>>>> is good to start advocating for yourself as young as possible, 
>>>>>> teachers
>>>>>> tend
>>>>>>
>>>>>> not to pay attention to you when you are younger. A possible way to 
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> around the wireless access issue is to use a broadband card and 
>>>>>> access
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> internet over the phone towers. A good way to force the school to 
>>>>>> allow
>>>>>> you
>>>>>> onto the wireless is to include something into the IEP. Something 
>>>>>> such
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> requires a laptop with wireless access. Possibly they may make an
>>>>>> exception
>>>>>> for you to get onto the internet, or if you push the issue, they may
>>>>>> modernize and create a student network. It is not all that difficult 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> do,
>>>>>> have both a faculty and student network. Have you talked to your
>>>>>> parents
>>>>>> about the issue? Also, have you spoken to the student division in 
>>>>>> your
>>>>>> state?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>>>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>>>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 9:58 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm in the 11th grade. I have all of the stuff that you've mentioned
>>>>>>> except
>>>>>>> wireless access. The network is secured. They won't allow students 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> get
>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>> to there network. Any other suggestions would be greatly 
>>>>>>> appreciated.
>>>>>>> Koby.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] 
>>>>>>> On
>>>>>>> Behalf
>>>>>>> Of Mark J. Cadigan
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 8:50 PM
>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know if it's been mentioned, but what grade are you in? And,
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> have a laptop or note taker with wireless access, a refreshable
>>>>>>> Braille
>>>>>>> display, and an embosser. It may not be the best, but having
>>>>>>> assignments
>>>>>>> emailed to you may work. Then you can read them on a refreshable
>>>>>>> display,
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> emboss them yourself. Sometimes u have to do a bit of your own
>>>>>>> adaptation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "Koby Cox" <kobycox at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2010 7:52 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard 
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> list.
>>>>>>>> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've
>>>>>>>> talked
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I
>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
>>>>>>>> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment 
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> day
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format.
>>>>>>>> What
>>>>>>>> could
>>>>>>>> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 15:46:35 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:46:35 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] sort of disappointed
Message-ID: <4CDABE5B.8030600@gmail.com>

Hi
I looked at optasia ministries. I'm disappointed a bit because you have 
to register to receive their services and that's because their books are 
copyrighted. So what I found so far is not quite what I'm looking for. I 
may have to create my own site then. The EWTN library is full of freely 
redistributable text. The douay-rheims bible and baltimore catechism 
1901 may be a bit outdated but its free materials. I'd like to simply 
translate those materials into daisy books.

Josh


From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 15:48:14 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:48:14 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] catholic materials
Message-ID: <4CDABEBE.5030608@gmail.com>

Hi

But correct me if I'm wrong, the bibles on biblegateway have to be read 
online. you cannot download them for offline reading, can you?

Josh


From agrima at nbp.org  Wed Nov 10 15:56:33 2010
From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:56:33 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New print/braille board book - and our Teachers' Toolkit
	sale continues!
Message-ID: <DB3A3A45583F44CA9549902D0A2C2436@nbp2.local>

Let's Dance, Little Pookie!
By Sandra Boynton
Print/braille board book, $5.99
Ages: Baby-Preschool
In contracted braille.

"Say hey, little Pookie!
You're a wonder to see.
Come on, my little Pookie, 
Won't you dance with me?"

Pookie's mama proposes a lively dance together. Pookie, being Pookie, is
somewhat hesitant to try something new. But little by little, Pookie is
drawn into the dance - hopping, marching, shimmying, singing, and
stretching. This perfect little board book provides a great way to get
your own little Pookies up and moving around, getting some exercise in a
fun and silly way.

Read more about this book, or order it, at 
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/BB-POOKIE.html

And don't forget our ongoing "Teachers' Toolkit" sale! The Toolkit is a
list of books, charts and other helpful products for you and your
students. And until December 31st, you can order $25 worth of books and
deduct $5 from your order - as many times as you like! (Note that this
discount is not available online - see the ordering information on page
7 of the PDF, or the end of the text version.)

Download the Toolkit in two formats:
Accessible PDF: http://www.nbp.org/downloads/teachers_toolkit_2010.pdf

Text version:
http://www.nbp.org/downloads/teachers_toolkit_2010.txt

******
To order any books, send payment to:
NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302
Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext
20. Or order any of our books online at
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html .





From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 15:53:53 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:53:53 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] catholic materials
Message-ID: <4CDAC011.8000505@gmail.com>

Hi

yes I did. What I would like to provide is
1. freely redistributable catholic materials in daisy and brf formats.
2. daily mass readings in brf formats. these days with technology, why 
get hard-copy braille unless you prefer it of course, just read the mass 
readings from your notetaker and braille display if you have one.
Every site or almost every site with christian materials for the blind 
it is necessary to register for such sites. I'd like a place where 
people can just come, go to the downloads section and download in brf or 
daisy freely redistributable materials. kind of like a project gutenberg 
and EWTN library but in brf and daisy audio and daisy text formats more 
suitable for blind people to read on anything from a notetaker to nls 
player.



From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 15:56:09 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 10:56:09 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] new member
Message-ID: <4CDAC099.3010009@gmail.com>

Hi

Why not see if you can get your math and science materials in LeTex? 
Also have you considered math-ml? but I'm not sure how accessible 
math-ml is though for a blind person to produce math-ml materials.



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 16:17:26 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 11:17:26 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] catholic materials
In-Reply-To: <4CDABEBE.5030608@gmail.com>
References: <4CDABEBE.5030608@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82443209B0D1412CA13042F2B0259ED7@SonyPC>

I believe you can download them as an audio file. If you wanted to, you 
could probably contact them, and they could send you the bible as a text or 
html file that you could put on your choice of book player.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Kennedy" <jkenn337 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:48 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] catholic materials


> Hi
>
> But correct me if I'm wrong, the bibles on biblegateway have to be read 
> online. you cannot download them for offline reading, can you?
>
> Josh
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 10 22:15:33 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 17:15:33 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] catholic materials
References: <4CDABEBE.5030608@gmail.com>
	<82443209B0D1412CA13042F2B0259ED7@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <F33C97F04ABA4E0B85A263A0730F56D7@Ashley>

Mark,
You're saying the site Bible gateway has audio files.  Where?  What format? 
Windows media? I haven't seen an audio feature.  Hope its there.
Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark J. Cadigan" <kramc11 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] catholic materials


>I believe you can download them as an audio file. If you wanted to, you 
>could probably contact them, and they could send you the bible as a text or 
>html file that you could put on your choice of book player.
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Josh Kennedy" <jkenn337 at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 10:48 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] catholic materials
>
>
>> Hi
>>
>> But correct me if I'm wrong, the bibles on biblegateway have to be read 
>> online. you cannot download them for offline reading, can you?
>>
>> Josh
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 22:24:16 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 17:24:16 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
Message-ID: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com>

Hey All:

Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
subject line a little.

As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.

Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.

I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
people around here.

I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working Saturday.

I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
the game with me.

My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
me, and so on.

It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.

So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?

This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
go with or not.

So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.

I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
female with all the rowdy drunks.

I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
because of stupid people!

I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
message yesterday in mind.

If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
enough?

I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.

I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
the football stadium before Saturday.

What to do?

Thanks so much,

Kerri


From missheather at comcast.net  Wed Nov 10 23:03:32 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 17:03:32 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F4149E2290664B1CA2D884824931A1A7@heathersony>

Hi Kerri,
As you will be in public the whole time, and as you will be using your 
cane which will tellyou where the steps are, there's no reason why you 
should be frightened. As you will be surrounded by people the whole 
time, if you get into a fix, you can easily ask for help if you need 
it. Have you thought about asking the person who takes the ticket to 
meet you outside the parking lot and, if you're worried about 
negotiating it, tell them you'll give them the ticket when you get 
inside the stadium. You can ask if they mind you walking with them and 
you'll be inside in no time. I don't see why you should be afraid of 
steps. after all, the steps stay still and you have a cane, you find 
them and walk down them.

I know I'm just one voice giving advice but, I've always found that I 
make friends when I step out and just go for it in life. So, my vote 
is you tell the person they have the ticket and ask them to meet you 
at your gate of choice. Keep the ticket until you're inside and go 
from there. I've been to countless rock and country music festivals 
and concerts in my life. Most of them in Australia where drinking is 
much more part of the culture and where the beer is twice as strong as 
American beer. I've never had any trouble with drunks. They usually 
offer to help and I say they can help by letting me do things myself 
and I thank them for being so helpful when they don't do anything. So, 
on the basis of my experience, and the tremendous boost that only 
independent travel can give you, I vote you go it alone and enjoy 
yourself.

Best,

Heather

Regards,

Heather
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton" 
<dburton at afb.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 4:24 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game 
Saturday


Hey All:

Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
subject line a little.

As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.

Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.

I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
people around here.

I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working 
Saturday.

I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
the game with me.

My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
me, and so on.

It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.

So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?

This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
go with or not.

So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.

I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
female with all the rowdy drunks.

I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
because of stupid people!

I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
message yesterday in mind.

If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
enough?

I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.

I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
the football stadium before Saturday.

What to do?

Thanks so much,

Kerri

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net 




From serenacucco at verizon.net  Wed Nov 10 23:19:25 2010
From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena Cucco)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 18:19:25 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BC60354B4F5A40D495FCD0DFB73420AA@SerenaPC>

Hi Kerrie,

That's a tough one ... If your aunt is going or can go, I'd say go with her.
Being with an adult for one activity isn't too big of a deal, especially cuz
you asked your friends and acquaintances.  You're correct that you can't
really "make" people go with you.  My first year I was in the pep band in
high school, I didn't know anybody, either.  The chaperones, moms who
brought snacks etc. to the games, walked with me, since I had nobody to walk
with.  To my knowledge, the title "chaperone" didn't have anything to do
with me as a blind person ... others called these moms "chaperones," as
well.  When I realized that the chaperones sat me somewhere not near my
bandmates, however, I talked to my band teacher.  The rest of that year, he
walked with me, instead, so it would at least look as if I had a friend to
walk with, him.  The next year, I met these two awesome guy friends who were
my pals at the games.

Serena

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Kerri Kosten
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 5:24 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list; k-r; Darren Burton
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday

Hey All:

Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
subject line a little.

As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.

Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.

I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
people around here.

I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working Saturday.

I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
the game with me.

My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
me, and so on.

It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.

So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?

This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
go with or not.

So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.

I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
female with all the rowdy drunks.

I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
because of stupid people!

I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
message yesterday in mind.

If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
enough?

I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.

I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
the football stadium before Saturday.

What to do?

Thanks so much,

Kerri

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo
n.net



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 10 23:30:02 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 18:30:02 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
In-Reply-To: <F4149E2290664B1CA2D884824931A1A7@heathersony>
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com>
	<F4149E2290664B1CA2D884824931A1A7@heathersony>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=o+-Uz065c3ziP61bBypdhGcwTsgmB5mtm69fs@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Heather and all!!

Thanks soooo much!

This is what I wanted to hear...I'm not afraid at all on steps...that
was just one thing that was mentioned yesterday...the steps shouldn't
be a problem!

I guess what I'm more afraid of is the huge massive parking lot, drunk
guys, and the unknown?

But your right...I can't get over it until I go out and try...just
what do I do if something were to happen? Do I just scream as loud as
I can? Should I bring a whistle?

Your right I should be fine considering I'll be in public the whole time.

Honestly, and I know this is an error of mine...but am I putting these
fears in my own head by thinking about them? Am I making this seem
worse than it is by thinking about it and listening to sighted
nay-sayers? And by sighted nay-sayers I mean people around here like
my mother and others who think there is no way I could possibly do
this.

I do know this...the stadium will be very very loud at times (when the
other team is playing and we're on defense) and when we score...so I
know I won't be able to hear my phone at all times if I would need to
call someone but during timeouts and such I should be able to use my
phone...I guess I would feel much better about this if I had a solid
plan or knew who to call if something did happen...hope this doesn't
sound dumb or make me look like a chicken lol!

Also, heather I did misunderstand one part of your message...you said
to give the person my extra ticket at either the parking lot or inside
the stadium...what did you mean by this? If I go alone I will only be
bringing the one ticket...or did you mean the person who works at the
stadium tearing ticket stubs at the ticket window?

Thanks all...

Kerri

On 11/10/10, H. Field <missheather at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Kerri,
> As you will be in public the whole time, and as you will be using your
> cane which will tellyou where the steps are, there's no reason why you
> should be frightened. As you will be surrounded by people the whole
> time, if you get into a fix, you can easily ask for help if you need
> it. Have you thought about asking the person who takes the ticket to
> meet you outside the parking lot and, if you're worried about
> negotiating it, tell them you'll give them the ticket when you get
> inside the stadium. You can ask if they mind you walking with them and
> you'll be inside in no time. I don't see why you should be afraid of
> steps. after all, the steps stay still and you have a cane, you find
> them and walk down them.
>
> I know I'm just one voice giving advice but, I've always found that I
> make friends when I step out and just go for it in life. So, my vote
> is you tell the person they have the ticket and ask them to meet you
> at your gate of choice. Keep the ticket until you're inside and go
> from there. I've been to countless rock and country music festivals
> and concerts in my life. Most of them in Australia where drinking is
> much more part of the culture and where the beer is twice as strong as
> American beer. I've never had any trouble with drunks. They usually
> offer to help and I say they can help by letting me do things myself
> and I thank them for being so helpful when they don't do anything. So,
> on the basis of my experience, and the tremendous boost that only
> independent travel can give you, I vote you go it alone and enjoy
> yourself.
>
> Best,
>
> Heather
>
> Regards,
>
> Heather
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton"
> <dburton at afb.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 4:24 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game
> Saturday
>
>
> Hey All:
>
> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
> subject line a little.
>
> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>
> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>
> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
> people around here.
>
> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working
> Saturday.
>
> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
> the game with me.
>
> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
> me, and so on.
>
> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>
> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>
> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
> go with or not.
>
> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>
> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>
> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
> because of stupid people!
>
> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
> message yesterday in mind.
>
> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
> enough?
>
> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>
> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
> the football stadium before Saturday.
>
> What to do?
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> Kerri
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 00:16:52 2010
From: ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com (Ben J. Bloomgren)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 17:16:52 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] catholic materials
In-Reply-To: <4CDABEBE.5030608@gmail.com>
References: <4CDABEBE.5030608@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4cdb35f5.857adc0a.67ef.3447@mx.google.com>

You're correct. BibleGateway is only for online reading. I have a KJV bible
in all text files, but where my friend got it I'll never know.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Josh Kennedy
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 08:48
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] catholic materials

Hi

But correct me if I'm wrong, the bibles on biblegateway have to be read 
online. you cannot download them for offline reading, can you?

Josh

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ben.j.bloomgren%40gm
ail.com



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 11 00:34:58 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 19:34:58 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C5F6210256424379B9925F3FAF27EE4F@Ashley>

Kerry,
I'm not into sports and the few outside games I have been with a sighted 
person.
>From my limited experience crowds at games do the same thing.  They all go 
through security if needed and check in at a ticket counter and proceed to a 
seat.  They mass exit at the end.

What a tough one.  You have to decide if you want to do this alone.  Will 
you really have fun with this anxiety and fear?  I know how you feel because 
its hard for me to make friends too.  I can be intriverted.  Rarely did 
someone ask me to go out and like you during college I missed out on events 
like concerts just because I didn't have anyone to go with.  So
like you I got up the courage to just do more things.   I decided to go 
where I wanted and when.  It helped that I had a great mobility instructor 
at the time who showed me the metro nearest my college and you can get there 
via the campus shuttle.
She also showed me a few places across the street like 711 and restaurants. 
There was a mall nearby to the metro station too.
I usually just went shopping and out to eat and joined a gym.
Like you if I go out to eat, a game, or whatever I don't want it to be to 
take me somewhere I want it to be for social reasons like they would do with 
anyone else.

Anyway, you can either go with your aunt or go alone.  I mean its your aunt 
not your mother.  If you go with your aunt maybe she will let you do some 
things on your own such as buying a beverage at half time or something.

Alternatively go alone.  No don't tell security to follow you.  You could 
introduce yourself to them if you want but don't ask them to help you as I 
think that looks weird to have an escort like that.
Just follow the crowd and ask directions.
For safety bring a cell phone and know who to call if you get stranded or 
something happens.  Don't you have a roommate or neighbor?  Check in with 
them every so often.
Yes you might want to bring a whistle.  If someone grabs you just yell and 
use your whole body to get away if they grab you.  Taking aikido or judo may 
help you learn self defense.
Maybe you could get a police officer to teach you some self defense perhaps. 
I took aikido, a martial art briefly.

Let me try and describe a move.  If your grabbed around the neck you want 
them to let go.
You raise your shoulders and bring both arms out and up.  This forces their 
arms to let go.
Also I'd recommend having two ways to get back home so if one way fails you 
have another.  Have the cab company numbers with you.

Good luck.
Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton" 
<dburton at afb.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 5:24 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday


> Hey All:
>
> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
> subject line a little.
>
> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>
> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>
> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
> people around here.
>
> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working Saturday.
>
> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
> the game with me.
>
> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
> me, and so on.
>
> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>
> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>
> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
> go with or not.
>
> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>
> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>
> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
> because of stupid people!
>
> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
> message yesterday in mind.
>
> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
> enough?
>
> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>
> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
> the football stadium before Saturday.
>
> What to do?
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> Kerri
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 00:51:51 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 19:51:51 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=o+-Uz065c3ziP61bBypdhGcwTsgmB5mtm69fs@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com>
	<F4149E2290664B1CA2D884824931A1A7@heathersony>
	<AANLkTi=o+-Uz065c3ziP61bBypdhGcwTsgmB5mtm69fs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinU-AEtAYB1+4=hU4FZ0oxkJwMOXHfLJdytuaw-@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Serena:

The problem isn't my aunt...it's one of her friends.

It's a long story but this woman feels sorry for me worse than
anybody...I used to really look up to her and saw her as a true friend
until I figured out that for all these years she just did things with
me because she felt sorry for me and because she felt like if she
didn't nobody else would...my aunt is best friends with her...I don't
want to go with my aunt and have this woman see me...but like I said
in my first message on this topic...I'm noticing a lot more people not
just my aunts friend have this attitude in regards to me.

I honestly think the reason it is so hard to find someone to go with
is because people often drink the entire day and they don't want to be
"responsible" for me when they are drinking or want me to see them
drunk. Plus...how would the blind girl get there? Get home? ETC...it's
just a complicated mess lol!

This is a major college football game so there aren't parents or
chaperones like that...but that's what I'm wondering about...should I
have someone meet me outside the stadium like a security guard,
parking official, university policeman, usher or somebody who works at
the stadium walk in with me and make sure I get seated?

I can do this...I'm getting more encouraged and excited with each
message I read...I just want to be as prepared as possible and have
the right plan in case something happens...

Keep the encouragement and ideas/opinions coming please!

Kerri

On 11/10/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Heather and all!!
>
> Thanks soooo much!
>
> This is what I wanted to hear...I'm not afraid at all on steps...that
> was just one thing that was mentioned yesterday...the steps shouldn't
> be a problem!
>
> I guess what I'm more afraid of is the huge massive parking lot, drunk
> guys, and the unknown?
>
> But your right...I can't get over it until I go out and try...just
> what do I do if something were to happen? Do I just scream as loud as
> I can? Should I bring a whistle?
>
> Your right I should be fine considering I'll be in public the whole time.
>
> Honestly, and I know this is an error of mine...but am I putting these
> fears in my own head by thinking about them? Am I making this seem
> worse than it is by thinking about it and listening to sighted
> nay-sayers? And by sighted nay-sayers I mean people around here like
> my mother and others who think there is no way I could possibly do
> this.
>
> I do know this...the stadium will be very very loud at times (when the
> other team is playing and we're on defense) and when we score...so I
> know I won't be able to hear my phone at all times if I would need to
> call someone but during timeouts and such I should be able to use my
> phone...I guess I would feel much better about this if I had a solid
> plan or knew who to call if something did happen...hope this doesn't
> sound dumb or make me look like a chicken lol!
>
> Also, heather I did misunderstand one part of your message...you said
> to give the person my extra ticket at either the parking lot or inside
> the stadium...what did you mean by this? If I go alone I will only be
> bringing the one ticket...or did you mean the person who works at the
> stadium tearing ticket stubs at the ticket window?
>
> Thanks all...
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/10/10, H. Field <missheather at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hi Kerri,
>> As you will be in public the whole time, and as you will be using your
>> cane which will tellyou where the steps are, there's no reason why you
>> should be frightened. As you will be surrounded by people the whole
>> time, if you get into a fix, you can easily ask for help if you need
>> it. Have you thought about asking the person who takes the ticket to
>> meet you outside the parking lot and, if you're worried about
>> negotiating it, tell them you'll give them the ticket when you get
>> inside the stadium. You can ask if they mind you walking with them and
>> you'll be inside in no time. I don't see why you should be afraid of
>> steps. after all, the steps stay still and you have a cane, you find
>> them and walk down them.
>>
>> I know I'm just one voice giving advice but, I've always found that I
>> make friends when I step out and just go for it in life. So, my vote
>> is you tell the person they have the ticket and ask them to meet you
>> at your gate of choice. Keep the ticket until you're inside and go
>> from there. I've been to countless rock and country music festivals
>> and concerts in my life. Most of them in Australia where drinking is
>> much more part of the culture and where the beer is twice as strong as
>> American beer. I've never had any trouble with drunks. They usually
>> offer to help and I say they can help by letting me do things myself
>> and I thank them for being so helpful when they don't do anything. So,
>> on the basis of my experience, and the tremendous boost that only
>> independent travel can give you, I vote you go it alone and enjoy
>> yourself.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Heather
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Heather
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton"
>> <dburton at afb.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 4:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game
>> Saturday
>>
>>
>> Hey All:
>>
>> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
>> subject line a little.
>>
>> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
>> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
>> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
>> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>>
>> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>>
>> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
>> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
>> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
>> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
>> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
>> people around here.
>>
>> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working
>> Saturday.
>>
>> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
>> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
>> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
>> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
>> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
>> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
>> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
>> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
>> the game with me.
>>
>> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
>> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
>> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
>> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
>> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
>> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
>> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
>> me, and so on.
>>
>> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
>> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
>> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
>> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
>> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
>> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>>
>> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>>
>> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
>> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
>> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
>> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
>> go with or not.
>>
>> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>>
>> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
>> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
>> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
>> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
>> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>>
>> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
>> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
>> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
>> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
>> because of stupid people!
>>
>> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
>> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
>> message yesterday in mind.
>>
>> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
>> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
>> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
>> enough?
>>
>> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
>> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
>> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>>
>> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
>> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
>> the football stadium before Saturday.
>>
>> What to do?
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>


From serenacucco at verizon.net  Thu Nov 11 01:05:45 2010
From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena Cucco)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:05:45 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=o+-Uz065c3ziP61bBypdhGcwTsgmB5mtm69fs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FC946732288749C39F3BEB9785E854BD@SerenaPC>


Your fear of the unknown isn't dumb.  Having said that, I don't think drunk
guys will necessarily hurt you or anything.  If they're really so drunk that
they could hurt someone, I doubt they'd mess with you, unless they're really
not nice people when they're sober.  I think you're being blind helps you in
this situation, since, not too many people, drunk or sober, wanna mess with
someone with a disability enough to hurt them.  Bullying might be another
story, but that's pretty much over by high school.  I'll admit, if you
suspect someone might be drunk, you might not want him/her to direct you
somewhere cuz he/she might not really know where he/she is going as well as
he/she would if he/she were sober, but I don't think it's that much of an
issue.  When I was in college, we had a party where many people drank ...
that was one of the big activities.  Just to be safe, I asked an RA to
direct me when needed, but that was simply cuz I knew many of the RAs and
they often were familiar with the specific entrance of my dorm I was looking
for, not out of fear of drunk students.

Serena

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Kerri Kosten
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 6:30 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday

Hi Heather and all!!

Thanks soooo much!

This is what I wanted to hear...I'm not afraid at all on steps...that
was just one thing that was mentioned yesterday...the steps shouldn't
be a problem!

I guess what I'm more afraid of is the huge massive parking lot, drunk
guys, and the unknown?

But your right...I can't get over it until I go out and try...just
what do I do if something were to happen? Do I just scream as loud as
I can? Should I bring a whistle?

Your right I should be fine considering I'll be in public the whole time.

Honestly, and I know this is an error of mine...but am I putting these
fears in my own head by thinking about them? Am I making this seem
worse than it is by thinking about it and listening to sighted
nay-sayers? And by sighted nay-sayers I mean people around here like
my mother and others who think there is no way I could possibly do
this.

I do know this...the stadium will be very very loud at times (when the
other team is playing and we're on defense) and when we score...so I
know I won't be able to hear my phone at all times if I would need to
call someone but during timeouts and such I should be able to use my
phone...I guess I would feel much better about this if I had a solid
plan or knew who to call if something did happen...hope this doesn't
sound dumb or make me look like a chicken lol!

Also, heather I did misunderstand one part of your message...you said
to give the person my extra ticket at either the parking lot or inside
the stadium...what did you mean by this? If I go alone I will only be
bringing the one ticket...or did you mean the person who works at the
stadium tearing ticket stubs at the ticket window?

Thanks all...

Kerri

On 11/10/10, H. Field <missheather at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Kerri,
> As you will be in public the whole time, and as you will be using your
> cane which will tellyou where the steps are, there's no reason why you
> should be frightened. As you will be surrounded by people the whole
> time, if you get into a fix, you can easily ask for help if you need
> it. Have you thought about asking the person who takes the ticket to
> meet you outside the parking lot and, if you're worried about
> negotiating it, tell them you'll give them the ticket when you get
> inside the stadium. You can ask if they mind you walking with them and
> you'll be inside in no time. I don't see why you should be afraid of
> steps. after all, the steps stay still and you have a cane, you find
> them and walk down them.
>
> I know I'm just one voice giving advice but, I've always found that I
> make friends when I step out and just go for it in life. So, my vote
> is you tell the person they have the ticket and ask them to meet you
> at your gate of choice. Keep the ticket until you're inside and go
> from there. I've been to countless rock and country music festivals
> and concerts in my life. Most of them in Australia where drinking is
> much more part of the culture and where the beer is twice as strong as
> American beer. I've never had any trouble with drunks. They usually
> offer to help and I say they can help by letting me do things myself
> and I thank them for being so helpful when they don't do anything. So,
> on the basis of my experience, and the tremendous boost that only
> independent travel can give you, I vote you go it alone and enjoy
> yourself.
>
> Best,
>
> Heather
>
> Regards,
>
> Heather
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton"
> <dburton at afb.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 4:24 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game
> Saturday
>
>
> Hey All:
>
> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
> subject line a little.
>
> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>
> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>
> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
> people around here.
>
> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working
> Saturday.
>
> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
> the game with me.
>
> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
> me, and so on.
>
> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>
> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>
> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
> go with or not.
>
> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>
> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>
> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
> because of stupid people!
>
> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
> message yesterday in mind.
>
> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
> enough?
>
> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>
> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
> the football stadium before Saturday.
>
> What to do?
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> Kerri
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcas
t.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.c
om
>

_______________________________________________
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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
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n.net



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 01:14:35 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:14:35 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D6D7F90D852545448EFFF86B165FEF0F@SonyPC>

I don't know if it has been discussed, but what about going with a blind 
friend?

And, don't be scared of drunks and the like. Just stay in crowded areas, and 
have a safe way of getting home, a safe way that does not involve walking on 
dark streets and the like. Preferably a cab or something. The phone is a 
grate idea.

Just for general self defense purposes, learning a self defense or strategy 
is a grate idea. But, self defense is 90% mental and 10% physical. You can 
take all the classes you want, but, if you are not prepared to use it, it is 
less than useless.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton" 
<dburton at afb.net>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 5:24 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday


> Hey All:
>
> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
> subject line a little.
>
> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>
> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>
> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
> people around here.
>
> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working Saturday.
>
> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
> the game with me.
>
> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
> me, and so on.
>
> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>
> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>
> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
> go with or not.
>
> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>
> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>
> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
> because of stupid people!
>
> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
> message yesterday in mind.
>
> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
> enough?
>
> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>
> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
> the football stadium before Saturday.
>
> What to do?
>
> Thanks so much,
>
> Kerri
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
> 



From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 01:45:04 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:45:04 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com><F4149E2290664B1CA2D884824931A1A7@heathersony>
	<AANLkTi=o+-Uz065c3ziP61bBypdhGcwTsgmB5mtm69fs@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EE9E15F3969D4ECA9E213662207EB8A2@D9P3ZND1>

Hi Kerri,
There is nothing wrong with being cautious and thinking situations through, 
but I'd try not to let fear rule your life. If we thought of the numerous 
possibilities of what could happen if we did this or that, we'd want to hide 
under a rock.
Being in crowds used to intimidate me but I learned from my former traffic 
fears: it can be your saving grace.
Putting your phone on vibrate would alert you if anyone was calling and if 
you for some reason got into a sticky situation you'd be surrounded with 
lots of people who can assist.
Good luck in with whatever you choose

Anjelina
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
Albert Einstein
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday


> Hi Heather and all!!
>
> Thanks soooo much!
>
> This is what I wanted to hear...I'm not afraid at all on steps...that
> was just one thing that was mentioned yesterday...the steps shouldn't
> be a problem!
>
> I guess what I'm more afraid of is the huge massive parking lot, drunk
> guys, and the unknown?
>
> But your right...I can't get over it until I go out and try...just
> what do I do if something were to happen? Do I just scream as loud as
> I can? Should I bring a whistle?
>
> Your right I should be fine considering I'll be in public the whole time.
>
> Honestly, and I know this is an error of mine...but am I putting these
> fears in my own head by thinking about them? Am I making this seem
> worse than it is by thinking about it and listening to sighted
> nay-sayers? And by sighted nay-sayers I mean people around here like
> my mother and others who think there is no way I could possibly do
> this.
>
> I do know this...the stadium will be very very loud at times (when the
> other team is playing and we're on defense) and when we score...so I
> know I won't be able to hear my phone at all times if I would need to
> call someone but during timeouts and such I should be able to use my
> phone...I guess I would feel much better about this if I had a solid
> plan or knew who to call if something did happen...hope this doesn't
> sound dumb or make me look like a chicken lol!
>
> Also, heather I did misunderstand one part of your message...you said
> to give the person my extra ticket at either the parking lot or inside
> the stadium...what did you mean by this? If I go alone I will only be
> bringing the one ticket...or did you mean the person who works at the
> stadium tearing ticket stubs at the ticket window?
>
> Thanks all...
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/10/10, H. Field <missheather at comcast.net> wrote:
>> Hi Kerri,
>> As you will be in public the whole time, and as you will be using your
>> cane which will tellyou where the steps are, there's no reason why you
>> should be frightened. As you will be surrounded by people the whole
>> time, if you get into a fix, you can easily ask for help if you need
>> it. Have you thought about asking the person who takes the ticket to
>> meet you outside the parking lot and, if you're worried about
>> negotiating it, tell them you'll give them the ticket when you get
>> inside the stadium. You can ask if they mind you walking with them and
>> you'll be inside in no time. I don't see why you should be afraid of
>> steps. after all, the steps stay still and you have a cane, you find
>> them and walk down them.
>>
>> I know I'm just one voice giving advice but, I've always found that I
>> make friends when I step out and just go for it in life. So, my vote
>> is you tell the person they have the ticket and ask them to meet you
>> at your gate of choice. Keep the ticket until you're inside and go
>> from there. I've been to countless rock and country music festivals
>> and concerts in my life. Most of them in Australia where drinking is
>> much more part of the culture and where the beer is twice as strong as
>> American beer. I've never had any trouble with drunks. They usually
>> offer to help and I say they can help by letting me do things myself
>> and I thank them for being so helpful when they don't do anything. So,
>> on the basis of my experience, and the tremendous boost that only
>> independent travel can give you, I vote you go it alone and enjoy
>> yourself.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Heather
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Heather
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton"
>> <dburton at afb.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 4:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game
>> Saturday
>>
>>
>> Hey All:
>>
>> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
>> subject line a little.
>>
>> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
>> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
>> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
>> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>>
>> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>>
>> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
>> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
>> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
>> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
>> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
>> people around here.
>>
>> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working
>> Saturday.
>>
>> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
>> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
>> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
>> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
>> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
>> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
>> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
>> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
>> the game with me.
>>
>> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
>> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
>> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
>> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
>> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
>> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
>> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
>> me, and so on.
>>
>> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
>> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
>> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
>> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
>> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
>> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>>
>> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>>
>> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
>> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
>> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
>> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
>> go with or not.
>>
>> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>>
>> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
>> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
>> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
>> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
>> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>>
>> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
>> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
>> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
>> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
>> because of stupid people!
>>
>> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
>> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
>> message yesterday in mind.
>>
>> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
>> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
>> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
>> enough?
>>
>> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
>> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
>> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>>
>> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
>> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
>> the football stadium before Saturday.
>>
>> What to do?
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From rob_blach at hotmail.com  Thu Nov 11 01:46:46 2010
From: rob_blach at hotmail.com (Rob Blachowicz)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:46:46 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] carbonite online backup accessibility
Message-ID: <BAY130-DS111BF9E19F101CF21B44878B320@phx.gbl>

Has anyone used the service carbonite with screen readers?  I’ve noticed that backing up and restoring files is accessible but accessing your files remotely on their site is not.  Has anyone else experienced this?
Rob Blachowicz

From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 02:00:42 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 21:00:42 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
In-Reply-To: <D6D7F90D852545448EFFF86B165FEF0F@SonyPC>
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com>
	<D6D7F90D852545448EFFF86B165FEF0F@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinVsA1yZrp867FVFbhYzFX1BTwXvbA0ZSKO2m9G@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!

Mark, there aren't any blind people around here...so that's not an
option sadly or I would love to use it.

Taking a self-defense class is a good idea...I will definitely look
into it for the future.

If this is not a good idea I won't do it but just to be safe would it
be a good idea to call the stadium ahead like tomorrow or Friday and
explain the situation so they can have someone help me?

Ashley I don't mean have an escort like that following me
everywhere...I just thought to be extra safe to avoid all the drunks
have someone who works at the stadium walk with me to my seat...

But, you guys are right...what is the worst a drunk will do?

If they grab me I can scream, blow my whistle, or something like
that...and you guys are right there will be thousands of people
around...it's not like a drunk is going to try to kidnap or rape me or
something right there in front of everybody and I'll be helpless.

I will definitely have my cell phone. I use the Iphone though which is
touchscreen so you kind of have to unlock it, and touch the screen to
make calls...should I get a simple track phone for this ocasion where
I could literally punch in a number...or is the Iphone which is what I
usually use okay?

And, I'll definitely make two arrangements of getting home...luckily
fornow my mother and her fiancee live near the stadium (they are
moving) and I plan on taking a cab...I would need to walk out of the
stadium and such but not on any dark streets...if something were to
happen I could call my mom who lives near there, a cab, and I'll
definitely ask ahead of time where the cab could drop me off and pick
me up that would be the closest to the entrance to cut down on
walking.

The game starts at noon, and should end around 3:30...since I don't
plan on tailgating afterwords it won't be dark...

I guess when I really think about it...the fear is that I'm  getting
out of my comfort zone...I've gotten lost before and have gone to
plenty of restaurants where I'm just dropped off and I just walk in
before but this is the first time for something major like this...I
won't be able to turn around and go home and it isn't as simple as
just walking inside a building...

But hey...I've just gotta keep reminding myself...I took two planes
one from Pittsburgh to Atlanta then from Atlanta to Dallas to
convention and back...for this I'm still in Morgantown, in the same
town...so I don't know exactly why I'm so nervous...I want to get over
it though...and you guys are right...what is the worst the drunks can
do?

Kerri

On 11/10/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know if it has been discussed, but what about going with a blind
> friend?
>
> And, don't be scared of drunks and the like. Just stay in crowded areas, and
> have a safe way of getting home, a safe way that does not involve walking on
> dark streets and the like. Preferably a cab or something. The phone is a
> grate idea.
>
> Just for general self defense purposes, learning a self defense or strategy
> is a grate idea. But, self defense is 90% mental and 10% physical. You can
> take all the classes you want, but, if you are not prepared to use it, it is
> less than useless.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton"
> <dburton at afb.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 5:24 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
>
>
>> Hey All:
>>
>> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
>> subject line a little.
>>
>> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
>> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
>> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
>> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>>
>> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>>
>> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
>> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
>> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
>> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
>> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
>> people around here.
>>
>> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working Saturday.
>>
>> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
>> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
>> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
>> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
>> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
>> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
>> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
>> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
>> the game with me.
>>
>> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
>> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
>> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
>> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
>> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
>> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
>> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
>> me, and so on.
>>
>> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
>> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
>> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
>> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
>> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
>> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>>
>> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>>
>> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
>> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
>> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
>> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
>> go with or not.
>>
>> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>>
>> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
>> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
>> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
>> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
>> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>>
>> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
>> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
>> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
>> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
>> because of stupid people!
>>
>> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
>> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
>> message yesterday in mind.
>>
>> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
>> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
>> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
>> enough?
>>
>> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
>> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
>> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>>
>> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
>> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
>> the football stadium before Saturday.
>>
>> What to do?
>>
>> Thanks so much,
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 11 01:50:20 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 20:50:20 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com><F4149E2290664B1CA2D884824931A1A7@heathersony><AANLkTi=o+-Uz065c3ziP61bBypdhGcwTsgmB5mtm69fs@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinU-AEtAYB1+4=hU4FZ0oxkJwMOXHfLJdytuaw-@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E9589C8B8D874183BF23E67A7649E8F3@Ashley>

Kerri,
Oh its at the university.  Well, then yes having university police help you 
is fine.  Maybe they can assist you to get in and call you afterward to see 
if you need an escort or if you're okay.  Having them meet you sounds like a 
fine idea.  Its your first game alone after all.
As to people, why would you want to go with someone who drinks so much 
they'll get drunk?
Do you like to drink?  I did not.  If the answer is no then find other types 
of friends to hang with!
People do crazy things when they're drunk and would you want to be with 
drunk people especially if you got a ride with them and then you would risk 
getting in the car with a impaired driver or one potentially impaired from 
drinking?
There are people in college who don't drink.  Find a common interest, maybe 
religious if you are spiritual, and join in.
Pick your friends wisely.  You're concerns are valid about getting to and 
from events.  That's why you need to have a couple plans.  First plan could 
be friends to get home, maybe get a volunteer to pick you up or finally a 
backup plan can be a cab.
Be careful!

Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday


> Hi Serena:
>
> The problem isn't my aunt...it's one of her friends.
>
> It's a long story but this woman feels sorry for me worse than
> anybody...I used to really look up to her and saw her as a true friend
> until I figured out that for all these years she just did things with
> me because she felt sorry for me and because she felt like if she
> didn't nobody else would...my aunt is best friends with her...I don't
> want to go with my aunt and have this woman see me...but like I said
> in my first message on this topic...I'm noticing a lot more people not
> just my aunts friend have this attitude in regards to me.
>
> I honestly think the reason it is so hard to find someone to go with
> is because people often drink the entire day and they don't want to be
> "responsible" for me when they are drinking or want me to see them
> drunk. Plus...how would the blind girl get there? Get home? ETC...it's
> just a complicated mess lol!
>
> This is a major college football game so there aren't parents or
> chaperones like that...but that's what I'm wondering about...should I
> have someone meet me outside the stadium like a security guard,
> parking official, university policeman, usher or somebody who works at
> the stadium walk in with me and make sure I get seated?
>
> I can do this...I'm getting more encouraged and excited with each
> message I read...I just want to be as prepared as possible and have
> the right plan in case something happens...
>
> Keep the encouragement and ideas/opinions coming please!
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/10/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Heather and all!!
>>
>> Thanks soooo much!
>>
>> This is what I wanted to hear...I'm not afraid at all on steps...that
>> was just one thing that was mentioned yesterday...the steps shouldn't
>> be a problem!
>>
>> I guess what I'm more afraid of is the huge massive parking lot, drunk
>> guys, and the unknown?
>>
>> But your right...I can't get over it until I go out and try...just
>> what do I do if something were to happen? Do I just scream as loud as
>> I can? Should I bring a whistle?
>>
>> Your right I should be fine considering I'll be in public the whole time.
>>
>> Honestly, and I know this is an error of mine...but am I putting these
>> fears in my own head by thinking about them? Am I making this seem
>> worse than it is by thinking about it and listening to sighted
>> nay-sayers? And by sighted nay-sayers I mean people around here like
>> my mother and others who think there is no way I could possibly do
>> this.
>>
>> I do know this...the stadium will be very very loud at times (when the
>> other team is playing and we're on defense) and when we score...so I
>> know I won't be able to hear my phone at all times if I would need to
>> call someone but during timeouts and such I should be able to use my
>> phone...I guess I would feel much better about this if I had a solid
>> plan or knew who to call if something did happen...hope this doesn't
>> sound dumb or make me look like a chicken lol!
>>
>> Also, heather I did misunderstand one part of your message...you said
>> to give the person my extra ticket at either the parking lot or inside
>> the stadium...what did you mean by this? If I go alone I will only be
>> bringing the one ticket...or did you mean the person who works at the
>> stadium tearing ticket stubs at the ticket window?
>>
>> Thanks all...
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/10/10, H. Field <missheather at comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Hi Kerri,
>>> As you will be in public the whole time, and as you will be using your
>>> cane which will tellyou where the steps are, there's no reason why you
>>> should be frightened. As you will be surrounded by people the whole
>>> time, if you get into a fix, you can easily ask for help if you need
>>> it. Have you thought about asking the person who takes the ticket to
>>> meet you outside the parking lot and, if you're worried about
>>> negotiating it, tell them you'll give them the ticket when you get
>>> inside the stadium. You can ask if they mind you walking with them and
>>> you'll be inside in no time. I don't see why you should be afraid of
>>> steps. after all, the steps stay still and you have a cane, you find
>>> them and walk down them.
>>>
>>> I know I'm just one voice giving advice but, I've always found that I
>>> make friends when I step out and just go for it in life. So, my vote
>>> is you tell the person they have the ticket and ask them to meet you
>>> at your gate of choice. Keep the ticket until you're inside and go
>>> from there. I've been to countless rock and country music festivals
>>> and concerts in my life. Most of them in Australia where drinking is
>>> much more part of the culture and where the beer is twice as strong as
>>> American beer. I've never had any trouble with drunks. They usually
>>> offer to help and I say they can help by letting me do things myself
>>> and I thank them for being so helpful when they don't do anything. So,
>>> on the basis of my experience, and the tremendous boost that only
>>> independent travel can give you, I vote you go it alone and enjoy
>>> yourself.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Heather
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Heather
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton"
>>> <dburton at afb.net>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 4:24 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game
>>> Saturday
>>>
>>>
>>> Hey All:
>>>
>>> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
>>> subject line a little.
>>>
>>> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
>>> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
>>> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
>>> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>>>
>>> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>>>
>>> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
>>> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
>>> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
>>> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
>>> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
>>> people around here.
>>>
>>> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working
>>> Saturday.
>>>
>>> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
>>> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
>>> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
>>> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
>>> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
>>> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
>>> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
>>> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
>>> the game with me.
>>>
>>> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
>>> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
>>> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
>>> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
>>> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
>>> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
>>> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
>>> me, and so on.
>>>
>>> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
>>> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
>>> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
>>> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
>>> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
>>> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>>>
>>> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>>>
>>> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
>>> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
>>> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
>>> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
>>> go with or not.
>>>
>>> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>>>
>>> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
>>> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
>>> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
>>> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
>>> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>>>
>>> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
>>> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
>>> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
>>> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
>>> because of stupid people!
>>>
>>> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
>>> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
>>> message yesterday in mind.
>>>
>>> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
>>> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
>>> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
>>> enough?
>>>
>>> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
>>> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
>>> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>>>
>>> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
>>> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
>>> the football stadium before Saturday.
>>>
>>> What to do?
>>>
>>> Thanks so much,
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 


From kramc11 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 02:50:40 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 21:50:40 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinVsA1yZrp867FVFbhYzFX1BTwXvbA0ZSKO2m9G@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com><D6D7F90D852545448EFFF86B165FEF0F@SonyPC>
	<AANLkTinVsA1yZrp867FVFbhYzFX1BTwXvbA0ZSKO2m9G@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0F09D30961564D8C8275D3302670F56C@SonyPC>

Good luck. I am confident you will be fine. Let us know how it all works 
out. I think getting a track phone would be unnecessary. Don't overanalyze 
things and scare yourself. Just have fun. What's the worst that can happen? 
You are in an area with tons of people, and there are employees stationed 
all around the stadium. It is completely safe while you are in the stadium.

I know meeting cited friends is difficult, but, there must be at least a few 
cited people that will respect you for who you are and not do things because 
they feel bad for the blind girl. Problem is, you just got to meet them. I 
can't share strategies for that one, because I am not the most successful at 
it myself.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday


> Hi All!
>
> Mark, there aren't any blind people around here...so that's not an
> option sadly or I would love to use it.
>
> Taking a self-defense class is a good idea...I will definitely look
> into it for the future.
>
> If this is not a good idea I won't do it but just to be safe would it
> be a good idea to call the stadium ahead like tomorrow or Friday and
> explain the situation so they can have someone help me?
>
> Ashley I don't mean have an escort like that following me
> everywhere...I just thought to be extra safe to avoid all the drunks
> have someone who works at the stadium walk with me to my seat...
>
> But, you guys are right...what is the worst a drunk will do?
>
> If they grab me I can scream, blow my whistle, or something like
> that...and you guys are right there will be thousands of people
> around...it's not like a drunk is going to try to kidnap or rape me or
> something right there in front of everybody and I'll be helpless.
>
> I will definitely have my cell phone. I use the Iphone though which is
> touchscreen so you kind of have to unlock it, and touch the screen to
> make calls...should I get a simple track phone for this ocasion where
> I could literally punch in a number...or is the Iphone which is what I
> usually use okay?
>
> And, I'll definitely make two arrangements of getting home...luckily
> fornow my mother and her fiancee live near the stadium (they are
> moving) and I plan on taking a cab...I would need to walk out of the
> stadium and such but not on any dark streets...if something were to
> happen I could call my mom who lives near there, a cab, and I'll
> definitely ask ahead of time where the cab could drop me off and pick
> me up that would be the closest to the entrance to cut down on
> walking.
>
> The game starts at noon, and should end around 3:30...since I don't
> plan on tailgating afterwords it won't be dark...
>
> I guess when I really think about it...the fear is that I'm  getting
> out of my comfort zone...I've gotten lost before and have gone to
> plenty of restaurants where I'm just dropped off and I just walk in
> before but this is the first time for something major like this...I
> won't be able to turn around and go home and it isn't as simple as
> just walking inside a building...
>
> But hey...I've just gotta keep reminding myself...I took two planes
> one from Pittsburgh to Atlanta then from Atlanta to Dallas to
> convention and back...for this I'm still in Morgantown, in the same
> town...so I don't know exactly why I'm so nervous...I want to get over
> it though...and you guys are right...what is the worst the drunks can
> do?
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/10/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't know if it has been discussed, but what about going with a blind
>> friend?
>>
>> And, don't be scared of drunks and the like. Just stay in crowded areas, 
>> and
>> have a safe way of getting home, a safe way that does not involve walking 
>> on
>> dark streets and the like. Preferably a cab or something. The phone is a
>> grate idea.
>>
>> Just for general self defense purposes, learning a self defense or 
>> strategy
>> is a grate idea. But, self defense is 90% mental and 10% physical. You 
>> can
>> take all the classes you want, but, if you are not prepared to use it, it 
>> is
>> less than useless.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton"
>> <dburton at afb.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 5:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
>>
>>
>>> Hey All:
>>>
>>> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
>>> subject line a little.
>>>
>>> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
>>> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
>>> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
>>> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>>>
>>> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>>>
>>> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
>>> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
>>> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
>>> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
>>> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
>>> people around here.
>>>
>>> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working Saturday.
>>>
>>> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
>>> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
>>> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
>>> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
>>> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
>>> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
>>> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
>>> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
>>> the game with me.
>>>
>>> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
>>> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
>>> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
>>> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
>>> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
>>> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
>>> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
>>> me, and so on.
>>>
>>> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
>>> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
>>> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
>>> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
>>> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
>>> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>>>
>>> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>>>
>>> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
>>> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
>>> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
>>> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
>>> go with or not.
>>>
>>> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>>>
>>> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
>>> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
>>> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
>>> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
>>> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>>>
>>> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
>>> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
>>> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
>>> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
>>> because of stupid people!
>>>
>>> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
>>> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
>>> message yesterday in mind.
>>>
>>> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
>>> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
>>> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
>>> enough?
>>>
>>> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
>>> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
>>> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>>>
>>> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
>>> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
>>> the football stadium before Saturday.
>>>
>>> What to do?
>>>
>>> Thanks so much,
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com 



From kramc11 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 03:18:33 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 21:18:33 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New MassABS List on nfbnet.org
Message-ID: <auto-000177383424@mailfront2.g2host.com>


MassABS Update



The Massachusetts Association of Blind Students has just created a 
new NFB.org email list. To join visit 
http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/massabs_nfbnet.org or send e-mail 
to massabs-request at nfbnet.org and put the word subscribe in the subject line.


This mailing list is a list for all Massachusetts students (at any 
educational level) including non-traditional students. This list also 
is a resource for any person who is interested in the subject of 
blind students in Massachusetts even if their not blind, not a member 
of the NFB, etc. Subscribers can also learn more about the organized 
blind and the services that are available to them in Massachusetts.



The list will allow the Massachusetts Association of Blind Students 
to communicate between meetings and also invite communication with 
students who are not part of the NFB.



This list will be used to post any events, announcements, fund 
raisers, and more. Most importantly, the list will be used to help 
the students of Massachusetts to network, discuss, solve, and 
discover new methods to resolve various questions.



If you have any questions please contact the list moderator Mark Cadigan.



Mark Cadigan

MassABS secretary

Kramc11 at gmail.com

508-446-7436


From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 03:50:35 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 22:50:35 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com><D6D7F90D852545448EFFF86B165FEF0F@SonyPC>
	<AANLkTinVsA1yZrp867FVFbhYzFX1BTwXvbA0ZSKO2m9G@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <654D4AC711DC4A30B0A56B2208A999B2@D9P3ZND1>

I've never been to this type of game, so forgive if my observations are off 
the mark. I wouldn't think the game would be overrun by intoxicated people 
so early in the day. You might have a few hard-core partiers, but security 
would have a riot in their hands if the stadium was filled with rowdy 
drinkers.
Fear is not a bad thing; we just have to keep it in check. I was once told 
fear is: false evidence appearing real.
I hope you attempt to go to the game. You may gain a bit more confidents, 
and it's your birthday. You deserve to enjoy yourself.

Anjelina
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
Albert Einstein
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday


> Hi All!
>
> Mark, there aren't any blind people around here...so that's not an
> option sadly or I would love to use it.
>
> Taking a self-defense class is a good idea...I will definitely look
> into it for the future.
>
> If this is not a good idea I won't do it but just to be safe would it
> be a good idea to call the stadium ahead like tomorrow or Friday and
> explain the situation so they can have someone help me?
>
> Ashley I don't mean have an escort like that following me
> everywhere...I just thought to be extra safe to avoid all the drunks
> have someone who works at the stadium walk with me to my seat...
>
> But, you guys are right...what is the worst a drunk will do?
>
> If they grab me I can scream, blow my whistle, or something like
> that...and you guys are right there will be thousands of people
> around...it's not like a drunk is going to try to kidnap or rape me or
> something right there in front of everybody and I'll be helpless.
>
> I will definitely have my cell phone. I use the Iphone though which is
> touchscreen so you kind of have to unlock it, and touch the screen to
> make calls...should I get a simple track phone for this ocasion where
> I could literally punch in a number...or is the Iphone which is what I
> usually use okay?
>
> And, I'll definitely make two arrangements of getting home...luckily
> fornow my mother and her fiancee live near the stadium (they are
> moving) and I plan on taking a cab...I would need to walk out of the
> stadium and such but not on any dark streets...if something were to
> happen I could call my mom who lives near there, a cab, and I'll
> definitely ask ahead of time where the cab could drop me off and pick
> me up that would be the closest to the entrance to cut down on
> walking.
>
> The game starts at noon, and should end around 3:30...since I don't
> plan on tailgating afterwords it won't be dark...
>
> I guess when I really think about it...the fear is that I'm  getting
> out of my comfort zone...I've gotten lost before and have gone to
> plenty of restaurants where I'm just dropped off and I just walk in
> before but this is the first time for something major like this...I
> won't be able to turn around and go home and it isn't as simple as
> just walking inside a building...
>
> But hey...I've just gotta keep reminding myself...I took two planes
> one from Pittsburgh to Atlanta then from Atlanta to Dallas to
> convention and back...for this I'm still in Morgantown, in the same
> town...so I don't know exactly why I'm so nervous...I want to get over
> it though...and you guys are right...what is the worst the drunks can
> do?
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/10/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't know if it has been discussed, but what about going with a blind
>> friend?
>>
>> And, don't be scared of drunks and the like. Just stay in crowded areas, 
>> and
>> have a safe way of getting home, a safe way that does not involve walking 
>> on
>> dark streets and the like. Preferably a cab or something. The phone is a
>> grate idea.
>>
>> Just for general self defense purposes, learning a self defense or 
>> strategy
>> is a grate idea. But, self defense is 90% mental and 10% physical. You 
>> can
>> take all the classes you want, but, if you are not prepared to use it, it 
>> is
>> less than useless.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton"
>> <dburton at afb.net>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 5:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
>>
>>
>>> Hey All:
>>>
>>> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
>>> subject line a little.
>>>
>>> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
>>> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
>>> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
>>> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>>>
>>> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>>>
>>> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
>>> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
>>> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
>>> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
>>> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
>>> people around here.
>>>
>>> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working Saturday.
>>>
>>> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
>>> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
>>> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
>>> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
>>> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
>>> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
>>> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
>>> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
>>> the game with me.
>>>
>>> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
>>> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
>>> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
>>> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
>>> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
>>> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
>>> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
>>> me, and so on.
>>>
>>> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
>>> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
>>> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
>>> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
>>> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
>>> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>>>
>>> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>>>
>>> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
>>> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
>>> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
>>> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
>>> go with or not.
>>>
>>> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>>>
>>> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
>>> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
>>> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
>>> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
>>> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>>>
>>> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
>>> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
>>> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
>>> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
>>> because of stupid people!
>>>
>>> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
>>> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
>>> message yesterday in mind.
>>>
>>> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
>>> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
>>> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
>>> enough?
>>>
>>> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
>>> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
>>> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>>>
>>> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
>>> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
>>> the football stadium before Saturday.
>>>
>>> What to do?
>>>
>>> Thanks so much,
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
> 



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 04:31:33 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 23:31:33 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
In-Reply-To: <654D4AC711DC4A30B0A56B2208A999B2@D9P3ZND1>
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com>
	<D6D7F90D852545448EFFF86B165FEF0F@SonyPC>
	<AANLkTinVsA1yZrp867FVFbhYzFX1BTwXvbA0ZSKO2m9G@mail.gmail.com>
	<654D4AC711DC4A30B0A56B2208A999B2@D9P3ZND1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTiksA50CHSbjq49WZGX9ajvVuK+4s_gZ=PmP7Lxo@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Anjelina and All:

Okay I think I am going to do this...thanks soo much for all the
encouragment...without it I wouldn't be attempting this...but you all
are right.

What do you guys think... Should I call the stadium ahead and let them
know I am blind and that I will be arriving so they can have someone
waiting who works at the stadium to escort me to my seat (by escort I
mean guide) or should I truly try it alone and do the whole wandering
around, asking random people directions?

What do you all think since it's my first time?

I feel a little more comfortable having someone who works there help
me in but I know wandering around and asking people would help me gain
more confidence...the only thing is I don't want to get too lost and
wander too far into the massive parking lot filled with the hardcore
drunk tailgaters or get the attention of the wrong drunk...at least
with the person escorting me I could get in safely and quickly...kind
of like when you ask for assistance at the airport...

Opinions please!

Again thanks!

Kerri

On 11/10/10, Anjelina <anjelinac26 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've never been to this type of game, so forgive if my observations are off
> the mark. I wouldn't think the game would be overrun by intoxicated people
> so early in the day. You might have a few hard-core partiers, but security
> would have a riot in their hands if the stadium was filled with rowdy
> drinkers.
> Fear is not a bad thing; we just have to keep it in check. I was once told
> fear is: false evidence appearing real.
> I hope you attempt to go to the game. You may gain a bit more confidents,
> and it's your birthday. You deserve to enjoy yourself.
>
> Anjelina
> Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
> Albert Einstein
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
>
>
>> Hi All!
>>
>> Mark, there aren't any blind people around here...so that's not an
>> option sadly or I would love to use it.
>>
>> Taking a self-defense class is a good idea...I will definitely look
>> into it for the future.
>>
>> If this is not a good idea I won't do it but just to be safe would it
>> be a good idea to call the stadium ahead like tomorrow or Friday and
>> explain the situation so they can have someone help me?
>>
>> Ashley I don't mean have an escort like that following me
>> everywhere...I just thought to be extra safe to avoid all the drunks
>> have someone who works at the stadium walk with me to my seat...
>>
>> But, you guys are right...what is the worst a drunk will do?
>>
>> If they grab me I can scream, blow my whistle, or something like
>> that...and you guys are right there will be thousands of people
>> around...it's not like a drunk is going to try to kidnap or rape me or
>> something right there in front of everybody and I'll be helpless.
>>
>> I will definitely have my cell phone. I use the Iphone though which is
>> touchscreen so you kind of have to unlock it, and touch the screen to
>> make calls...should I get a simple track phone for this ocasion where
>> I could literally punch in a number...or is the Iphone which is what I
>> usually use okay?
>>
>> And, I'll definitely make two arrangements of getting home...luckily
>> fornow my mother and her fiancee live near the stadium (they are
>> moving) and I plan on taking a cab...I would need to walk out of the
>> stadium and such but not on any dark streets...if something were to
>> happen I could call my mom who lives near there, a cab, and I'll
>> definitely ask ahead of time where the cab could drop me off and pick
>> me up that would be the closest to the entrance to cut down on
>> walking.
>>
>> The game starts at noon, and should end around 3:30...since I don't
>> plan on tailgating afterwords it won't be dark...
>>
>> I guess when I really think about it...the fear is that I'm  getting
>> out of my comfort zone...I've gotten lost before and have gone to
>> plenty of restaurants where I'm just dropped off and I just walk in
>> before but this is the first time for something major like this...I
>> won't be able to turn around and go home and it isn't as simple as
>> just walking inside a building...
>>
>> But hey...I've just gotta keep reminding myself...I took two planes
>> one from Pittsburgh to Atlanta then from Atlanta to Dallas to
>> convention and back...for this I'm still in Morgantown, in the same
>> town...so I don't know exactly why I'm so nervous...I want to get over
>> it though...and you guys are right...what is the worst the drunks can
>> do?
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/10/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I don't know if it has been discussed, but what about going with a blind
>>> friend?
>>>
>>> And, don't be scared of drunks and the like. Just stay in crowded areas,
>>> and
>>> have a safe way of getting home, a safe way that does not involve walking
>>>
>>> on
>>> dark streets and the like. Preferably a cab or something. The phone is a
>>> grate idea.
>>>
>>> Just for general self defense purposes, learning a self defense or
>>> strategy
>>> is a grate idea. But, self defense is 90% mental and 10% physical. You
>>> can
>>> take all the classes you want, but, if you are not prepared to use it, it
>>>
>>> is
>>> less than useless.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton"
>>> <dburton at afb.net>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 5:24 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hey All:
>>>>
>>>> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
>>>> subject line a little.
>>>>
>>>> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
>>>> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
>>>> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
>>>> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>>>>
>>>> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>>>>
>>>> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
>>>> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
>>>> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
>>>> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
>>>> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
>>>> people around here.
>>>>
>>>> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working Saturday.
>>>>
>>>> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
>>>> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
>>>> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
>>>> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
>>>> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
>>>> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
>>>> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
>>>> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
>>>> the game with me.
>>>>
>>>> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
>>>> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
>>>> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
>>>> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
>>>> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
>>>> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
>>>> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
>>>> me, and so on.
>>>>
>>>> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
>>>> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
>>>> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
>>>> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
>>>> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
>>>> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>>>>
>>>> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>>>>
>>>> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
>>>> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
>>>> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
>>>> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
>>>> go with or not.
>>>>
>>>> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>>>>
>>>> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
>>>> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
>>>> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
>>>> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
>>>> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>>>>
>>>> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
>>>> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
>>>> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
>>>> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
>>>> because of stupid people!
>>>>
>>>> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
>>>> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
>>>> message yesterday in mind.
>>>>
>>>> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
>>>> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
>>>> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
>>>> enough?
>>>>
>>>> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
>>>> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
>>>> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>>>>
>>>> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
>>>> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
>>>> the football stadium before Saturday.
>>>>
>>>> What to do?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks so much,
>>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Thu Nov 11 05:04:34 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 00:04:34 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College
	Sporting	Events
Message-ID: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>

Kimberly,

This is with no offense meant, so plese don't take it this way. That 
said, I'm sorry if my comments do seem offensive.

I do wish you hadn't made the football stadium sound so dangerous. The 
truth is that stairs, parking lots, and even drunks are completely 
manageable. This is true even for folks new to independence. Kerri, 
you're not on an independence high: you're trying to see what you can 
do and stretch beyond what you once thought to be your limits. This is 
totally normal for folks who are just starting out. While it is true 
that you want to be safe and take things slow as you get your feet wet 
as it were, understand that you have to brave what you sometimes might 
think of as danger in order to get where you want. That doesn't mean 
abandon caution, but it does mean that one should not be needlessly 
afraid. Ask for help when you need it, but don't be afraid to go it 
alone when you want or need to.

Respectfully,
Jedi


Original message:
> Hi Kimberly, Jedi and All:

> Wow, Kimberly thank you so much!
> I have been to our stadium several times and knew the parking lot was
> huge, sprawling, and full of drunks. I guess since I was always guided
> I forgot about all the steps!
> I'm glad to finally find a fellow sports fan who follows a school in
> the Big East conference...we play you guys there next week actually on
> Nov. 20...I just wrote a story about the game being televised on the
> Big East Network.

> Thanks Kimberly for giving me a little wake-up call. I guess I'm kind
> of on an independence high from the basketball game last week.
> Your right that the basketball games are much calmer and a better
> atmosphere...they are inside a building and I don't know of anyone who
> drinks there...I don't even think they sell beer there.

> Thanks so much...I want to be safe but also find and practice my
> independence as well.

> Here is what I may do.

> Let me know what you guys think about this considering what Kimberly said.

> I have an extra ticket for the football game Saturday. I go to the
> game with someone. I go to the basketball game Friday by myself as I
> did last week and really try to see if I can practice
> independence...try to find my seat by asking for section numbers, and
> see if I can get to the concession stand...that sorta thing.

> Then I can be somewhat independent on my birthday, I still get to do
> all the things I want to, but still be safe.

> And Kimberly...thank you so much...you may have just kept me from a
> dizasterous and potentially very dangerous and harmful situation!

> Hope your stay in Morgantown was a good one; it is a big problem that
> there are no blind people around here but I intend to do what I can to
> solve it eventually!

> Kerri

> On 11/9/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>> Kerry and all:

>> I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I have to jump in
>> here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the University of Louisville,
>> a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West Virginia.  I have
>> been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of
>> Louisville played West Virginia.

>> I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but  one of these
>> football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too many
>> sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  The area you would
>> be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite dangerous with
>> steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking lots are full of
>> drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and he has to be on
>> full alert while navigating these places himself.

>> The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the building on your
>> own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy and the venue is
>> not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there from some nice
>> people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  I will take all
>> the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these events by myself.
>>  I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  There are usually
>> lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  Most of the time
>> someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually very nice.
>> Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person will get a
>> positive image of blind people.

>> Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe while maintaining
>> your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the
>> football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.
>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

>>> Hi Jedi and all:

>>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>>> Thanks so much!

>>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>>> isn't.

>>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.

>>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>>> own?

>>> Kerri
>>> Kerri

>>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>> Kerri,

>>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.

>>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.

>>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.

>>>> Good luck.

>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi

>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Hi All!

>>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>>>> events.

>>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>>>> are a major Division I school.

>>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.

>>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.

>>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.

>>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?

>>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>>> way?

>>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>>>> by myself.

>>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>>> being a female not because of blindness)

>>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>>> the fans?

>>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?

>>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?

>>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>>>> the same time.

>>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>>> confidence...

>>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>>> someone or not!
>>>>> Help!

>>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!

>>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!

>>>>> Kerri

>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

>>>> --
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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From ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 07:29:57 2010
From: ben.j.bloomgren at gmail.com (Ben J. Bloomgren)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 00:29:57 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] carbonite online backup accessibility
In-Reply-To: <BAY130-DS111BF9E19F101CF21B44878B320@phx.gbl>
References: <BAY130-DS111BF9E19F101CF21B44878B320@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4cdb9b78.0444960a.5a8c.ffff8ecc@mx.google.com>

Rob,

I tried carbonite. It was totally inaccessible to me. I could hardly even navigate the program to start the blessed backup! I was wondering about this and I was just about to write a message wondering what yall have used to back up files. I tried XDrive way back in the day. It worked well until I torque the finances.

Ben

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Rob Blachowicz
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 18:47
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] carbonite online backup accessibility

Has anyone used the service carbonite with screen readers?  I’ve noticed that backing up and restoring files is accessible but accessing your files remotely on their site is not.  Has anyone else experienced this?
Rob Blachowicz
_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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From kimthurman at insightbb.com  Thu Nov 11 16:52:27 2010
From: kimthurman at insightbb.com (Kimberly thurman)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:52:27 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College	Sporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
Message-ID: <E80448EB-F819-4B20-AC74-1B728728A7DC@insightbb.com>

Jedi:

Maybe I did not make the point I wished to.  It's not really the steps or the drunks that would be the problem.  The problem is tha the football stadium is massive.  The parking lot is even more massive.  I would venture to say that we walked a couple of miles between getting in to our seats and getting out to the parking lot.  

Unless Kerry has ingrained knowledge of the stadium and its parking lots, or a way to be dropped off at the stadium entrance, she will probably spend her birthday wandering a beer can riddled parking lot.  

Of course, some sweet soul will probably rescue her before that hapens, but is this true independence?  It is just being rescued from a not very well thought out plan.  

If she is dropped off at the stadium entrance, she will definitely need the assistance of others to find her seat, and there's nothing wrong with that.  I just do not want her to have a false sense of security that she will be able to wander around until she locates her own seat.  Football games are long, but not long enough for a totally blind person to find 1 seat in 60,000 without some sighted assistance.  

Kerry, if you want to go to the football game, which you obviously do, find a way to be dropped at the stadium entrance.  Ask someone there to assist you to your seat.  You also need to be picked up at the stadium entrance after the game is over.  Parking lots are no fun to hnvigate in normal conditions.  I can't imagine navigating those parking lots on the day of a game.  

I am speaking from experience from the perspective of a blind person who has been there and done that.  Trust me, those folks get blistered on game day.  They burn couches when they win a game for gosh sakes.  They're rowdy, obnoxious, and aren't looking out for a petite blind girl wandering through a parking lot with no idea where she is or how to get to where she is going.  

Kerry, just be careful in whatever you choose to do.  Stay out of the parking lot by yourself at all cost.  It's not safe, and especially after the game, it's really not safe.  No beer is served in the stadium, but nearly everyone has a bottle tucked into their pocket.  

Of course, just because I, a person with experience in this exact situation wouldn't do it, doesn't mean you can't do it and won't have a good time.  I just can't picture anyone having a good time wandering around that massive parking lot while everyone else has gone into the game.

Happy birthday in advance, and I hope you have a great birthday weekend.  

Jedi, I mean absolutely no disrespect and admire your sense of independence.  I just can't let this young girl go wandering around that place without at first planning her strategy for getting in and out.  
On Nov 11, 2010, at 12:04 AM, Jedi wrote:

> Kimberly,
> 
> This is with no offense meant, so plese don't take it this way. That said, I'm sorry if my comments do seem offensive.
> 
> I do wish you hadn't made the football stadium sound so dangerous. The truth is that stairs, parking lots, and even drunks are completely manageable. This is true even for folks new to independence. Kerri, you're not on an independence high: you're trying to see what you can do and stretch beyond what you once thought to be your limits. This is totally normal for folks who are just starting out. While it is true that you want to be safe and take things slow as you get your feet wet as it were, understand that you have to brave what you sometimes might think of as danger in order to get where you want. That doesn't mean abandon caution, but it does mean that one should not be needlessly afraid. Ask for help when you need it, but don't be afraid to go it alone when you want or need to.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
> 
> 
> Original message:
>> Hi Kimberly, Jedi and All:
> 
>> Wow, Kimberly thank you so much!
>> I have been to our stadium several times and knew the parking lot was
>> huge, sprawling, and full of drunks. I guess since I was always guided
>> I forgot about all the steps!
>> I'm glad to finally find a fellow sports fan who follows a school in
>> the Big East conference...we play you guys there next week actually on
>> Nov. 20...I just wrote a story about the game being televised on the
>> Big East Network.
> 
>> Thanks Kimberly for giving me a little wake-up call. I guess I'm kind
>> of on an independence high from the basketball game last week.
>> Your right that the basketball games are much calmer and a better
>> atmosphere...they are inside a building and I don't know of anyone who
>> drinks there...I don't even think they sell beer there.
> 
>> Thanks so much...I want to be safe but also find and practice my
>> independence as well.
> 
>> Here is what I may do.
> 
>> Let me know what you guys think about this considering what Kimberly said.
> 
>> I have an extra ticket for the football game Saturday. I go to the
>> game with someone. I go to the basketball game Friday by myself as I
>> did last week and really try to see if I can practice
>> independence...try to find my seat by asking for section numbers, and
>> see if I can get to the concession stand...that sorta thing.
> 
>> Then I can be somewhat independent on my birthday, I still get to do
>> all the things I want to, but still be safe.
> 
>> And Kimberly...thank you so much...you may have just kept me from a
>> dizasterous and potentially very dangerous and harmful situation!
> 
>> Hope your stay in Morgantown was a good one; it is a big problem that
>> there are no blind people around here but I intend to do what I can to
>> solve it eventually!
> 
>> Kerri
> 
>> On 11/9/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>>> Kerry and all:
> 
>>> I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I have to jump in
>>> here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the University of Louisville,
>>> a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West Virginia.  I have
>>> been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of
>>> Louisville played West Virginia.
> 
>>> I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but  one of these
>>> football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too many
>>> sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  The area you would
>>> be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite dangerous with
>>> steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking lots are full of
>>> drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and he has to be on
>>> full alert while navigating these places himself.
> 
>>> The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the building on your
>>> own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy and the venue is
>>> not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there from some nice
>>> people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  I will take all
>>> the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these events by myself.
>>> I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  There are usually
>>> lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  Most of the time
>>> someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually very nice.
>>> Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person will get a
>>> positive image of blind people.
> 
>>> Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe while maintaining
>>> your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the
>>> football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.
>>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
> 
>>>> Hi Jedi and all:
> 
>>>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>>>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>>>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>>>> Thanks so much!
> 
>>>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>>>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>>>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>>>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>>>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>>>> isn't.
> 
>>>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>>>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>>>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>>>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>>>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>>>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
> 
>>>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>>>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>>>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>>>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>>>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>>>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>>>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>>>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>>>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>>>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>>>> own?
> 
>>>> Kerri
>>>> Kerri
> 
>>>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>>> Kerri,
> 
>>>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks and
>>>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving certain
>>>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
> 
>>>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend to
>>>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
> 
>>>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. I'll
>>>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you as
>>>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that sex
>>>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
> 
>>>>> Good luck.
> 
>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>> Jedi
> 
>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>> Hi All!
> 
>>>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating sporting
>>>>>> events.
> 
>>>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball and
>>>>>> are a major Division I school.
> 
>>>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive attitude.
> 
>>>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing what
>>>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game this
>>>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
> 
>>>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
> 
>>>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate their
>>>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass each
>>>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once in
>>>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. I
>>>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is appreciated
>>>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some directions
>>>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
> 
>>>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to doubt
>>>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction when
>>>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure do
>>>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find someone
>>>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>>>> way?
> 
>>>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I really
>>>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try going
>>>>>> by myself.
> 
>>>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
> 
>>>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after the
>>>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home at
>>>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to try
>>>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my cane
>>>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>>>> the fans?
> 
>>>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a female
>>>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
> 
>>>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want to
>>>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and her
>>>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell them
>>>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
> 
>>>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting me
>>>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a sighted
>>>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling them
>>>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that sort
>>>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel at
>>>>>> the same time.
> 
>>>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>>>> confidence...
> 
>>>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>>>> someone or not!
>>>>>> Help!
> 
>>>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my cane...I
>>>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
> 
>>>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
> 
>>>>>> Kerri
> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net
> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
> 
> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>>>> nabs-l:
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> 
> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
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> 
> 
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From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 11 16:57:16 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 11:57:16 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday
References: <AANLkTinxtQFe0RbjRu5GNtFLJQVDysCwQx+foG8ey+QP@mail.gmail.com><D6D7F90D852545448EFFF86B165FEF0F@SonyPC><AANLkTinVsA1yZrp867FVFbhYzFX1BTwXvbA0ZSKO2m9G@mail.gmail.com><654D4AC711DC4A30B0A56B2208A999B2@D9P3ZND1>
	<AANLkTiksA50CHSbjq49WZGX9ajvVuK+4s_gZ=PmP7Lxo@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9C6863FD1A3D4195B1CE5AE55AAECD90@Ashley>

Kerry, its up to you.  I think you should ask for assistance.
You'll get in fast and safely and be able to enjoy the game.  You don't want 
to spend lots of time figuring things out because by that time the seats are 
filling up.  At big events its easier to get out alone because everyone is 
leaving and you can follow the crowd.  But getting there everyone is rushing 
to find a seat or go the restroom before the event or buying last minute 
tickets. Its chaos!
When I attended a play alone I got help from an usher or someone to my seat. 
They offered to help.  Its okay whatever you choose.  If you have attempted 
to ask people in crowds for directions you know its hard and a chore.  I 
speak from experience.  People are rushing to their seat, talking on a cell 
phone, talking to family or a member of their group, or doing something. 
Its hard to get their attention!
When you finally do they often cannot verbalize directions well and point to 
things.  Sometimes I think its good to do what is efficient and enjoy 
yourself.  You're still independent as long as you are in control of the 
situation  is my opinion.
Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game Saturday


> Hi Anjelina and All:
>
> Okay I think I am going to do this...thanks soo much for all the
> encouragment...without it I wouldn't be attempting this...but you all
> are right.
>
> What do you guys think... Should I call the stadium ahead and let them
> know I am blind and that I will be arriving so they can have someone
> waiting who works at the stadium to escort me to my seat (by escort I
> mean guide) or should I truly try it alone and do the whole wandering
> around, asking random people directions?
>
> What do you all think since it's my first time?
>
> I feel a little more comfortable having someone who works there help
> me in but I know wandering around and asking people would help me gain
> more confidence...the only thing is I don't want to get too lost and
> wander too far into the massive parking lot filled with the hardcore
> drunk tailgaters or get the attention of the wrong drunk...at least
> with the person escorting me I could get in safely and quickly...kind
> of like when you ask for assistance at the airport...
>
> Opinions please!
>
> Again thanks!
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/10/10, Anjelina <anjelinac26 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I've never been to this type of game, so forgive if my observations are 
>> off
>> the mark. I wouldn't think the game would be overrun by intoxicated 
>> people
>> so early in the day. You might have a few hard-core partiers, but 
>> security
>> would have a riot in their hands if the stadium was filled with rowdy
>> drinkers.
>> Fear is not a bad thing; we just have to keep it in check. I was once 
>> told
>> fear is: false evidence appearing real.
>> I hope you attempt to go to the game. You may gain a bit more confidents,
>> and it's your birthday. You deserve to enjoy yourself.
>>
>> Anjelina
>> Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
>> Albert Einstein
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 9:00 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game 
>> Saturday
>>
>>
>>> Hi All!
>>>
>>> Mark, there aren't any blind people around here...so that's not an
>>> option sadly or I would love to use it.
>>>
>>> Taking a self-defense class is a good idea...I will definitely look
>>> into it for the future.
>>>
>>> If this is not a good idea I won't do it but just to be safe would it
>>> be a good idea to call the stadium ahead like tomorrow or Friday and
>>> explain the situation so they can have someone help me?
>>>
>>> Ashley I don't mean have an escort like that following me
>>> everywhere...I just thought to be extra safe to avoid all the drunks
>>> have someone who works at the stadium walk with me to my seat...
>>>
>>> But, you guys are right...what is the worst a drunk will do?
>>>
>>> If they grab me I can scream, blow my whistle, or something like
>>> that...and you guys are right there will be thousands of people
>>> around...it's not like a drunk is going to try to kidnap or rape me or
>>> something right there in front of everybody and I'll be helpless.
>>>
>>> I will definitely have my cell phone. I use the Iphone though which is
>>> touchscreen so you kind of have to unlock it, and touch the screen to
>>> make calls...should I get a simple track phone for this ocasion where
>>> I could literally punch in a number...or is the Iphone which is what I
>>> usually use okay?
>>>
>>> And, I'll definitely make two arrangements of getting home...luckily
>>> fornow my mother and her fiancee live near the stadium (they are
>>> moving) and I plan on taking a cab...I would need to walk out of the
>>> stadium and such but not on any dark streets...if something were to
>>> happen I could call my mom who lives near there, a cab, and I'll
>>> definitely ask ahead of time where the cab could drop me off and pick
>>> me up that would be the closest to the entrance to cut down on
>>> walking.
>>>
>>> The game starts at noon, and should end around 3:30...since I don't
>>> plan on tailgating afterwords it won't be dark...
>>>
>>> I guess when I really think about it...the fear is that I'm  getting
>>> out of my comfort zone...I've gotten lost before and have gone to
>>> plenty of restaurants where I'm just dropped off and I just walk in
>>> before but this is the first time for something major like this...I
>>> won't be able to turn around and go home and it isn't as simple as
>>> just walking inside a building...
>>>
>>> But hey...I've just gotta keep reminding myself...I took two planes
>>> one from Pittsburgh to Atlanta then from Atlanta to Dallas to
>>> convention and back...for this I'm still in Morgantown, in the same
>>> town...so I don't know exactly why I'm so nervous...I want to get over
>>> it though...and you guys are right...what is the worst the drunks can
>>> do?
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> On 11/10/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> I don't know if it has been discussed, but what about going with a 
>>>> blind
>>>> friend?
>>>>
>>>> And, don't be scared of drunks and the like. Just stay in crowded 
>>>> areas,
>>>> and
>>>> have a safe way of getting home, a safe way that does not involve 
>>>> walking
>>>>
>>>> on
>>>> dark streets and the like. Preferably a cab or something. The phone is 
>>>> a
>>>> grate idea.
>>>>
>>>> Just for general self defense purposes, learning a self defense or
>>>> strategy
>>>> is a grate idea. But, self defense is 90% mental and 10% physical. You
>>>> can
>>>> take all the classes you want, but, if you are not prepared to use it, 
>>>> it
>>>>
>>>> is
>>>> less than useless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>; "k-r" <k-r at atlanticbb.net>; "Darren Burton"
>>>> <dburton at afb.net>
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 2010 5:24 PM
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Need more help...Navigating The Football Game 
>>>> Saturday
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hey All:
>>>>>
>>>>> Sorry to post another message about this but I figured I'd change the
>>>>> subject line a little.
>>>>>
>>>>> As most of you know, yesterday I decided to do the basketball game
>>>>> independently and just find a friend for the football game Saturday to
>>>>> be on the safe side with such a massive stadium, parking lot area,
>>>>> tons of steps everywhere, and all the drunks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, to make a long story short, I can't find anyone to go with.
>>>>>
>>>>> I honestly don't have very many friends around here. The reasons for
>>>>> this are debatable but I think it comes down to the fact that the
>>>>> sighted people feel sorry for me, and see me as a child and don't want
>>>>> to be "responsible" for me. I don't have that forward-thinking sighted
>>>>> person to go to or that cool friend and there aren't any other blind
>>>>> people around here.
>>>>>
>>>>> I called one of the friends I have Loray...but she is working 
>>>>> Saturday.
>>>>>
>>>>> I posted on Facebook yesterday that I have an extra ticket to go to
>>>>> the game on the 50 yard line but noone responded. I posted another
>>>>> status update earlier today and someone responded asking if I was
>>>>> selling the ticket and how much and they may be interested...I
>>>>> explained the situation, that the ticket wasn't for sale but I was
>>>>> looking for someone to go with because as a female it probably
>>>>> wouldn't be the best idea to go alone with all the drunks. The person
>>>>> agreed, and asked how I was but did not say anything about going to
>>>>> the game with me.
>>>>>
>>>>> My aunt may be going but heres the thing...I want to be careful with
>>>>> who I ask and select to go with. I don't want to just go with someone
>>>>> as a tag-along or invite myself into a group or worst of all have
>>>>> someone feel sorry for the poor blind girl and take her to the game
>>>>> because she doesn't have anyone to go with...and if she doesn't go
>>>>> with me how will she go to the game? Poor thing...then the whole time
>>>>> ask me about where my mother is, and how my mother should be taking
>>>>> me, and so on.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's my birthday...I want to do this and have fun and I want to go
>>>>> with a person who wants to go with me because of me not because they
>>>>> feel sorry for the poor blind girl or the poor blind girl doesn't have
>>>>> anyone else to go with, or the poor blind girl's mother is too busy
>>>>> for her. I try to point out that 'm 23 years old and don't need my
>>>>> mother and they say "I know," but it infuriates me.
>>>>>
>>>>> So, what should I do if I don't end up finding someone to go with?
>>>>>
>>>>> This not getting to do things because of not having people to do
>>>>> things has gone on long enough. As of a couple of months ago I decided
>>>>> enough was enough, and to stop feeling sorry for myself, and that from
>>>>> now on I would do what I wanted when I wanted whether I had people to
>>>>> go with or not.
>>>>>
>>>>> So far, until this football game I've been doing pretty well.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have already missed out on several festivals here and a concert that
>>>>> was held here featuring Maroon 5, Ludacris, and Kris Allen (Maroon 5
>>>>> is one of my favorite artists and I love Ludacris) because of not
>>>>> having people to go with and being afraid to go because of being a
>>>>> female with all the rowdy drunks.
>>>>>
>>>>> I want to show these feel sorry people that I don't need them, and
>>>>> that I do what I want when I want whether they want to take me or not,
>>>>> and that my mother doesn't need to be around...I don't want my
>>>>> birthday to be ruined too and not get to go to something I want
>>>>> because of stupid people!
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't need these people...I'm determined to show them and overcome
>>>>> this...but I want to be safe too and keep what Kimberly said in her
>>>>> message yesterday in mind.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I don't end up finding anybody and have to do it alone would it be
>>>>> best  to do the call ahead, have someone from security help me to my
>>>>> seat then help me out of the stadium afterwords? Would that be safe
>>>>> enough?
>>>>>
>>>>> I love the idea of gong to the stadium to check things out on a day
>>>>> when the fans are not there...but this is the last of two home games
>>>>> so this will most likely be the only football game I go to.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to pick up my ticket for the basketball game so I definitely
>>>>> will check out that areena but I don't know if I'll get to check out
>>>>> the football stadium before Saturday.
>>>>>
>>>>> What to do?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks so much,
>>>>>
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
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From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 11 17:10:51 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:10:51 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major
	College	SportingEvents
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<E80448EB-F819-4B20-AC74-1B728728A7DC@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <A4184DCE332046E5BC33B96581CD518D@Ashley>

Kimberly,
I totally agree.  In a crowd that is loud and lots of space like this you 
need assistance.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Wandering around lost 
when your goal is to get into a game you paid for with a ticket is not 
independence and defeats the purpose of your trip.  There is nothing wrong 
with asking for directions from a trusted official like the police or ticket 
agents or ushers.  There is nothing wrong with having them walk with you and 
show you the appropriate seat.
Walking aimlessly amongst roudy people in a parking lot does not show your 
independence.  It shows your willing to be risky.  Independence is going 
where you want when you want without much inconvenience to yourself or 
others.  Because officials assist anyone and do crowd control at such major 
events with thousands of people its not an inconvenience to them to help out 
anyone whether disabled or not.
Jedi may disagree but there is a difference between independence and 
rebellious independence.
Part of independence in living in this society is knowing when to ask for 
assistance.  Do we grow our own food to be independent?  No we ask for help 
to grocery shop at the store.  We are all interdependent in a post 
industrialized society.
Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kimberly thurman" <kimthurman at insightbb.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College 
SportingEvents


> Jedi:
>
> Maybe I did not make the point I wished to.  It's not really the steps or 
> the drunks that would be the problem.  The problem is tha the football 
> stadium is massive.  The parking lot is even more massive.  I would 
> venture to say that we walked a couple of miles between getting in to our 
> seats and getting out to the parking lot.
>
> Unless Kerry has ingrained knowledge of the stadium and its parking lots, 
> or a way to be dropped off at the stadium entrance, she will probably 
> spend her birthday wandering a beer can riddled parking lot.
>
> Of course, some sweet soul will probably rescue her before that hapens, 
> but is this true independence?  It is just being rescued from a not very 
> well thought out plan.
>
> If she is dropped off at the stadium entrance, she will definitely need 
> the assistance of others to find her seat, and there's nothing wrong with 
> that.  I just do not want her to have a false sense of security that she 
> will be able to wander around until she locates her own seat.  Football 
> games are long, but not long enough for a totally blind person to find 1 
> seat in 60,000 without some sighted assistance.
>
> Kerry, if you want to go to the football game, which you obviously do, 
> find a way to be dropped at the stadium entrance.  Ask someone there to 
> assist you to your seat.  You also need to be picked up at the stadium 
> entrance after the game is over.  Parking lots are no fun to hnvigate in 
> normal conditions.  I can't imagine navigating those parking lots on the 
> day of a game.
>
> I am speaking from experience from the perspective of a blind person who 
> has been there and done that.  Trust me, those folks get blistered on game 
> day.  They burn couches when they win a game for gosh sakes.  They're 
> rowdy, obnoxious, and aren't looking out for a petite blind girl wandering 
> through a parking lot with no idea where she is or how to get to where she 
> is going.
>
> Kerry, just be careful in whatever you choose to do.  Stay out of the 
> parking lot by yourself at all cost.  It's not safe, and especially after 
> the game, it's really not safe.  No beer is served in the stadium, but 
> nearly everyone has a bottle tucked into their pocket.
>
> Of course, just because I, a person with experience in this exact 
> situation wouldn't do it, doesn't mean you can't do it and won't have a 
> good time.  I just can't picture anyone having a good time wandering 
> around that massive parking lot while everyone else has gone into the 
> game.
>
> Happy birthday in advance, and I hope you have a great birthday weekend.
>
> Jedi, I mean absolutely no disrespect and admire your sense of 
> independence.  I just can't let this young girl go wandering around that 
> place without at first planning her strategy for getting in and out.
> On Nov 11, 2010, at 12:04 AM, Jedi wrote:
>
>> Kimberly,
>>
>> This is with no offense meant, so plese don't take it this way. That 
>> said, I'm sorry if my comments do seem offensive.
>>
>> I do wish you hadn't made the football stadium sound so dangerous. The 
>> truth is that stairs, parking lots, and even drunks are completely 
>> manageable. This is true even for folks new to independence. Kerri, 
>> you're not on an independence high: you're trying to see what you can do 
>> and stretch beyond what you once thought to be your limits. This is 
>> totally normal for folks who are just starting out. While it is true that 
>> you want to be safe and take things slow as you get your feet wet as it 
>> were, understand that you have to brave what you sometimes might think of 
>> as danger in order to get where you want. That doesn't mean abandon 
>> caution, but it does mean that one should not be needlessly afraid. Ask 
>> for help when you need it, but don't be afraid to go it alone when you 
>> want or need to.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Hi Kimberly, Jedi and All:
>>
>>> Wow, Kimberly thank you so much!
>>> I have been to our stadium several times and knew the parking lot was
>>> huge, sprawling, and full of drunks. I guess since I was always guided
>>> I forgot about all the steps!
>>> I'm glad to finally find a fellow sports fan who follows a school in
>>> the Big East conference...we play you guys there next week actually on
>>> Nov. 20...I just wrote a story about the game being televised on the
>>> Big East Network.
>>
>>> Thanks Kimberly for giving me a little wake-up call. I guess I'm kind
>>> of on an independence high from the basketball game last week.
>>> Your right that the basketball games are much calmer and a better
>>> atmosphere...they are inside a building and I don't know of anyone who
>>> drinks there...I don't even think they sell beer there.
>>
>>> Thanks so much...I want to be safe but also find and practice my
>>> independence as well.
>>
>>> Here is what I may do.
>>
>>> Let me know what you guys think about this considering what Kimberly 
>>> said.
>>
>>> I have an extra ticket for the football game Saturday. I go to the
>>> game with someone. I go to the basketball game Friday by myself as I
>>> did last week and really try to see if I can practice
>>> independence...try to find my seat by asking for section numbers, and
>>> see if I can get to the concession stand...that sorta thing.
>>
>>> Then I can be somewhat independent on my birthday, I still get to do
>>> all the things I want to, but still be safe.
>>
>>> And Kimberly...thank you so much...you may have just kept me from a
>>> dizasterous and potentially very dangerous and harmful situation!
>>
>>> Hope your stay in Morgantown was a good one; it is a big problem that
>>> there are no blind people around here but I intend to do what I can to
>>> solve it eventually!
>>
>>> Kerri
>>
>>> On 11/9/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>>>> Kerry and all:
>>
>>>> I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I have to jump 
>>>> in
>>>> here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the University of 
>>>> Louisville,
>>>> a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West Virginia.  I 
>>>> have
>>>> been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of
>>>> Louisville played West Virginia.
>>
>>>> I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but  one of 
>>>> these
>>>> football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too many
>>>> sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  The area you 
>>>> would
>>>> be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite dangerous 
>>>> with
>>>> steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking lots are full 
>>>> of
>>>> drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and he has to be 
>>>> on
>>>> full alert while navigating these places himself.
>>
>>>> The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the building on 
>>>> your
>>>> own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy and the 
>>>> venue is
>>>> not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there from some nice
>>>> people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  I will take 
>>>> all
>>>> the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these events by 
>>>> myself.
>>>> I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  There are 
>>>> usually
>>>> lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  Most of the 
>>>> time
>>>> someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually very nice.
>>>> Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person will get a
>>>> positive image of blind people.
>>
>>>> Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe while 
>>>> maintaining
>>>> your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the
>>>> football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.
>>>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>
>>>>> Hi Jedi and all:
>>
>>>>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>>>>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>>>>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>>>>> Thanks so much!
>>
>>>>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>>>>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>>>>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>>>>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>>>>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>>>>> isn't.
>>
>>>>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>>>>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>>>>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>>>>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>>>>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>>>>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>>
>>>>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>>>>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>>>>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>>>>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>>>>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>>>>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>>>>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>>>>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>>>>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>>>>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>>>>> own?
>>
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>> Kerri
>>
>>>>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Kerri,
>>
>>>>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>>>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>>>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>>>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving 
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>>
>>>>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>>>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>>>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>>>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>>>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>>>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>>
>>>>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. 
>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>>>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>>>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you 
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>>>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>>>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>>>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>>>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that 
>>>>>> sex
>>>>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>>
>>>>>> Good luck.
>>
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>>
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Hi All!
>>
>>>>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating 
>>>>>>> sporting
>>>>>>> events.
>>
>>>>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> are a major Division I school.
>>
>>>>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive 
>>>>>>> attitude.
>>
>>>>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing 
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game 
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>>
>>>>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>>
>>>>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate 
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass 
>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once 
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. 
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is 
>>>>>>> appreciated
>>>>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some 
>>>>>>> directions
>>>>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>>
>>>>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to 
>>>>>>> doubt
>>>>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction 
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure 
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find 
>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>>>>> way?
>>
>>>>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I 
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try 
>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>> by myself.
>>
>>>>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>>
>>>>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home 
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to 
>>>>>>> try
>>>>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my 
>>>>>>> cane
>>>>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>>>>> the fans?
>>
>>>>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a 
>>>>>>> female
>>>>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>>
>>>>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and 
>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell 
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>>
>>>>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting 
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a 
>>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling 
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that 
>>>>>>> sort
>>>>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel 
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the same time.
>>
>>>>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>>>>> confidence...
>>
>>>>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>>>>> someone or not!
>>>>>>> Help!
>>
>>>>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my 
>>>>>>> cane...I
>>>>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>>
>>>>>>> Kerri
>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
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>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>>
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>> _______________________________________________
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From jsorozco at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 17:14:16 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:14:16 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major
	CollegeSporting	Events
In-Reply-To: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
Message-ID: <48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>

Jedi,

Even the Louisiana Center builds up to the point where students are sent to
unfamiliar towns to fulfill a task.  I think Kerri is brave as all get out
to even consider showing up to a stadium by herself, and while we all wish
her the best and are rooting for her to have a good time, I would hate for
her to run the risk of having a rotten time and assume this might be a
reflection of what it might be like to tackle other tasks that are more
easily accomplished.  Sometimes you need to get out and do things to build
up your confidence.  I chose not to attend a center and understood when I
made that choice that I would need to find my own way to push my limits, but
I have also understood that it is far more profitable to tackle the everyday
tasks that are going to build my core than it is to go on adventures that
might only bring about more frustrations in the process of achieving them.
For example, in my line of work I have to attend large events where I know
absolutely no one.  As the lead development and fundraising person for my
organization, I have to try to make key contacts in order to meet our
multimillion-dollar budget every year.  I've built up to attending larger
conventions.  I started with smaller roundtable presentations, and while my
confidence is sometimes swayed when I show up in large ballrooms, I don't
know that going to a stadium concert, for example, will do anything to help
me out in these everyday types of situations.  So, if Kerri pulls it off
this weekend, I say, "hell yeah!"  Write an article about it and show us all
how's it's done, but if she doesn't it's okay too, because independence is
genuinely developed through everyday practice and not through major leaps.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jedi
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 12:05 AM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major 
CollegeSporting Events

Kimberly,

This is with no offense meant, so plese don't take it this way. That 
said, I'm sorry if my comments do seem offensive.

I do wish you hadn't made the football stadium sound so dangerous. The 
truth is that stairs, parking lots, and even drunks are completely 
manageable. This is true even for folks new to independence. Kerri, 
you're not on an independence high: you're trying to see what you can 
do and stretch beyond what you once thought to be your limits. This is 
totally normal for folks who are just starting out. While it is true 
that you want to be safe and take things slow as you get your feet wet 
as it were, understand that you have to brave what you sometimes might 
think of as danger in order to get where you want. That doesn't mean 
abandon caution, but it does mean that one should not be needlessly 
afraid. Ask for help when you need it, but don't be afraid to go it 
alone when you want or need to.

Respectfully,
Jedi


Original message:
> Hi Kimberly, Jedi and All:

> Wow, Kimberly thank you so much!
> I have been to our stadium several times and knew the parking lot was
> huge, sprawling, and full of drunks. I guess since I was always guided
> I forgot about all the steps!
> I'm glad to finally find a fellow sports fan who follows a school in
> the Big East conference...we play you guys there next week actually on
> Nov. 20...I just wrote a story about the game being televised on the
> Big East Network.

> Thanks Kimberly for giving me a little wake-up call. I guess I'm kind
> of on an independence high from the basketball game last week.
> Your right that the basketball games are much calmer and a better
> atmosphere...they are inside a building and I don't know of anyone who
> drinks there...I don't even think they sell beer there.

> Thanks so much...I want to be safe but also find and practice my
> independence as well.

> Here is what I may do.

> Let me know what you guys think about this considering what 
Kimberly said.

> I have an extra ticket for the football game Saturday. I go to the
> game with someone. I go to the basketball game Friday by myself as I
> did last week and really try to see if I can practice
> independence...try to find my seat by asking for section numbers, and
> see if I can get to the concession stand...that sorta thing.

> Then I can be somewhat independent on my birthday, I still get to do
> all the things I want to, but still be safe.

> And Kimberly...thank you so much...you may have just kept me from a
> dizasterous and potentially very dangerous and harmful situation!

> Hope your stay in Morgantown was a good one; it is a big problem that
> there are no blind people around here but I intend to do what I can to
> solve it eventually!

> Kerri

> On 11/9/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>> Kerry and all:

>> I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I 
have to jump in
>> here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the 
University of Louisville,
>> a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West 
Virginia.  I have
>> been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of
>> Louisville played West Virginia.

>> I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but 
 one of these
>> football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too many
>> sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  
The area you would
>> be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite 
dangerous with
>> steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking 
lots are full of
>> drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and 
he has to be on
>> full alert while navigating these places himself.

>> The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the 
building on your
>> own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy 
and the venue is
>> not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there 
from some nice
>> people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  
I will take all
>> the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these 
events by myself.
>>  I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  
There are usually
>> lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  
Most of the time
>> someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually 
very nice.
>> Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person 
will get a
>> positive image of blind people.

>> Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe 
while maintaining
>> your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the
>> football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.
>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

>>> Hi Jedi and all:

>>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>>> Thanks so much!

>>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how 
much I'd love
>>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here 
I wouldn't
>>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but 
unfortunately there
>>> isn't.

>>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female 
thing up is
>>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>>> something like that...going with another blind woman would 
certainaly
>>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.

>>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office 
ahead, explain
>>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true 
doing it on my
>>> own?

>>> Kerri
>>> Kerri

>>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>> Kerri,

>>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell 
them what
>>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say 
no thanks and
>>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, 
yet firm, in
>>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in 
receiving certain
>>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.

>>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in 
charge, it is a
>>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no 
fun to be
>>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask 
a friend to
>>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.

>>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of 
events. I'll
>>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with 
blindness) to stop
>>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female 
at the mercy
>>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people 
thinking of you as
>>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still 
struggling with that
>>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with 
someone just to
>>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is 
always a safe
>>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your 
heart that sex
>>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.

>>>> Good luck.

>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi

>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Hi All!

>>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about 
navigating sporting
>>>>> events.

>>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in 
Basketball and
>>>>> are a major Division I school.

>>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a 
positive attitude.

>>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is 
to practice
>>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes 
from doing what
>>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used 
your cane
>>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a 
basketball game this
>>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.

>>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball 
game, then
>>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week 
and things
>>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.

>>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you 
appreciate their
>>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want 
to pass each
>>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and 
every once in
>>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep 
going...kind
>>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at 
an airport. I
>>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the 
sighted people
>>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is 
appreciated
>>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is 
some directions
>>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?

>>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I 
don't walk
>>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I 
tend to doubt
>>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong 
direction when
>>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When 
your unsure do
>>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you 
find someone
>>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>>> way?

>>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people 
attend our games
>>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my 
birthday, I really
>>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone 
to go with
>>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence 
to try going
>>>>> by myself.

>>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone 
know I am
>>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>>> being a female not because of blindness)

>>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern 
is after the
>>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying 
to get home at
>>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a 
female to try
>>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters 
with my cane
>>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or 
is it just
>>>>> the fans?

>>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, 
particularly a female
>>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has 
anyone on
>>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?

>>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here 
feel sorry for
>>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little 
blind girl but
>>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they 
immediately want to
>>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me 
or whatever.
>>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with 
her and her
>>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people 
seem to want
>>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does 
it tell them
>>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?

>>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but 
them letting me
>>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to 
ask a sighted
>>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their 
arm so we can
>>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, 
telling them
>>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get 
lost...that sort
>>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to 
practice travel at
>>>>> the same time.

>>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>>> confidence...

>>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love 
the idea of a
>>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the 
travel. I don't
>>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other 
I want to
>>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>>> someone or not!
>>>>> Help!

>>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr 
the game? I
>>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are 
you doing
>>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here 
with my cane...I
>>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!

>>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!

>>>>> Kerri

>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> 
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblin
djedi%40samobile.net

>>>> --
>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.


>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> 
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06%40gmail.com


>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your 
account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> 
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an%40insightbb.com


>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> 
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06%40gmail.com


> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
> 
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djedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.

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From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 11 17:56:09 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 12:56:09 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded
	MajorCollegeSporting	Events
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
Message-ID: <39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>

Joe,
That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one Kerry 
spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and 
concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with thousands of 
people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you say you 
might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So its fine 
to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use 
assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do it 
alone.
Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as at the 
Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do go, I 
might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.

Ashley 



From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 19:18:41 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 14:18:41 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] project . . .
Message-ID: <4CDC4191.7080904@gmail.com>

Hi
ok let me clarify:
I want to or would like to:
1. take librivox.org and gutenberg.org plus files in the EWTN library 
combine them.
2. all these are public domain texts. in summary: *to create a library 
of public domain daisy-audio and public-domain daisy-text books. 
bookshare has some public domain books but not very many in daisy or brf 
oh yes brf format as well. if not a website then an email list where 
such materials could be shared. gutenberg EWTN library and archive.org 
have great public domain and creative commons books. most are in text 
and not in daisy with navigation. oh by the way archive.org has language 
learning books and lots of stexts that could be converted to daisy with 
ms-word or openoffice. so that's what I'd like, I'd like to see more 
public-domain and creative-commons daisy format materials. oh, also what 
about more materials in math-ml or math and science materials in LeTex?
Someday I'd like to see a LeTex to daisy audio and letex to daisy text 
converter.

Josh


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 20:00:14 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 15:00:14 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kimberly and All:

Okay let me clear a few things up.

Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.

I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.

I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
people.

I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.

I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.

I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
"Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...

Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
otherwise...

Thanks everyone again!
Kerri

On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joe,
> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one Kerry
> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and
> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with thousands of
> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you say you
> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So its fine
> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do it
> alone.
> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as at the
> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do go, I
> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
>
> Ashley
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From kramc11 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 20:46:10 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 15:46:10 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Accessible Credit Reports
Message-ID: <F51EF48A01B649A6A31288D96B9254E3@SonyPC>

I am forwarding this in hopes that some of you may find it useful. 



----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bob Hachey 
To: bscb-announce at acb.org 
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 2:48 PM
Subject: [bscb-announce] Accessible Credit Reports


Have You checked your ACCESSIBLE Credit Reports in 2010?

As the holiday season approaches it is a great time to review your free credit report - available in Braille, Large Print or audio format, or on-line in an accessible on-line format. Every United States citizen is entitled to one free report every twelve months from each of the three companies: Equifax, Experian and Trans Union.  These companies have been providing accessible reports for two years as a result of ACB and CCB's Structured Negotiations advocacy efforts.  

You can request your report in Braille, Large Print and Audio formats by calling 877-322-8228.  This is a toll-free automated system.  You will be asked to chose your alternative format towards the end of the call, after you enter identifying information.

Please note that while credit reports (also known as credit disclosures) are free through the toll free number above, credit scores are not.  Information on how to order a credit scores will be provided to consumers ordering the initial reports.  Scores should also be provided in Braille, Large Print, and audio formats to those who order the initial disclosure in these formats.

You can receive your credit report on line in accessible format by visiting 
www.annualcreditreport.com 

More information about free accessible credit reports can be found in the post on Lainey's web site at: 
http://lflegal.com/2010/11/credit-access/

From ginisd at sbcglobal.net  Thu Nov 11 21:48:24 2010
From: ginisd at sbcglobal.net (V Nork)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 13:48:24 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Need help  with attending big game
Message-ID: <B516C0F013484DCDB1887AA0FE99B26C@windows4c0ed96>

Dear Keri and all, I have been following this thread carefully, since I am
in a similar situation with thinking through  with some trepidation a trip I
want to take alone   using my white cane  to a crowded concert in a small
San Diego Stadium with steep sides and lots of stairs.  And while I  am not
really a sports fan and would  probably not  ever be motivated to attend a
football game, I think there are similar challenges in  attending both your
game and my concert:   That is,  there likely will be lots of people,
stairs, and distracting unfamiliar sounds.    .The advice given you on the
list has   been wonderful and has also encouraged me to go to the concert
alone, a first for me.   I think in years past, I waited until I could find
someone who wanted to go to the same concert.  And so waiting, I have gone
to few concerts, yet I feel music and other forms of recreation obviously
enhance our studies in the academic area, just by giving us perspective and
a break.   , and there is no one right way to travel to your game, of
course.  I feel you will have a super time.  One tiny puzzle bit I offer
here is that the issue of crowds is that to me, just personally, crowds are
like huge rivers, with different currents going sometimes in different
directions.   So if you follow one group of people, they may be going not
toward the seats, but toward the restrooms, or a friend they just spotted,
or so on.  Also, with steps, I find I must be very alert to make sure my
cane finds the first step down or up as well as a railing, and a large,
noisy crowd with random shouts and laughter may distract momentarily and
break my concentration, possibly causing me to fall.  Now it is usually no
big deal if you miss the first step, but for instance with me, I have slight
balance problems and so it could be more serious.     But even though
someone may be very agile and steady on their feet, noise in an unfamiliar
area may be something that could cause a  distraction and miscue with
stairs, with a variety of results.  I think I would suggest  that once you
are in the stadium, you ask for an escort   from the stadium staff to take
you ,  to your seat up any steps or down any steps for that matter.   After
the game is over, I would try to have an escort from  either the stadium
staff or a fellow game goer who seems safe,  to escort  you from your seat
to the exit  or wherever your ride will be waiting.  Obviously, as many have
said, you want people around you as possible witnesses to deter wrong doers
or whatever, and to avoid waiting in darkness or isolation, forgive what may
be overkill in advice here.  Having an escort to and from your seat just
seems more relaxing for your first time, I think next time you will have
thought up a different strategy.  More will be revealed after your first
time.  I have had an adventure just reading this thread.  Best of luck, and
have a great birthday! Best, Ginnie.

 

Postscript:  If anyone has time, I would love to hear of any concert trips
taken alone with large crowds by anyone on the list. It would inspire me on
this concert going project.  Thanks.


From kimthurman at insightbb.com  Thu Nov 11 21:52:27 2010
From: kimthurman at insightbb.com (Kimberly thurman)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 16:52:27 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded
	MajorCollegeSporting	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>

Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was just concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old you wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened for you.  Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?  

I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose, enjoy yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

> Hi Kimberly and All:
> 
> Okay let me clear a few things up.
> 
> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
> 
> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
> 
> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
> people.
> 
> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
> 
> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
> 
> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
> 
> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
> otherwise...
> 
> Thanks everyone again!
> Kerri
> 
> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Joe,
>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one Kerry
>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and
>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with thousands of
>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you say you
>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So its fine
>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do it
>> alone.
>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as at the
>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do go, I
>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
>> 
>> Ashley
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 22:27:29 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:27:29 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimFewd0pny0GcyV=b5WYGcj=AnTgXOdWZ3_vcdD@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kimberly and all:

I'm not really that brave;I'm a girl who likes to go and do and who is
trying my best to not let blindness or fear stop me!

I'm going to see how finding my seat using my cane goes at the
basketball game tomorrow...I'm also going to see if I can go to the
stadium tomorrow and scope things out...see if I can even distinguish
the sections with my cane...depending on how all that goes tomorrow
with the stadium and basketball game I'll decide saturday whether to
try to find my seat with my cane or whether to just have someone who
works at the stadium escort me.

I'm not brave enough Kimberly to do those parking lots alone...maybe
if another blind person were with me but not my first game...I'll be
celebrating if I find my seat on my own lol!

Kerri

On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was just
> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old you
> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened for you.
>  Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
>
> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose, enjoy
> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>
>> Hi Kimberly and All:
>>
>> Okay let me clear a few things up.
>>
>> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>>
>> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
>> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
>> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
>> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
>> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>>
>> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
>> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
>> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
>> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
>> people.
>>
>> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
>> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
>> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>>
>> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
>> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
>> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
>> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
>>
>> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
>> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
>> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
>> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
>> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
>> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
>> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
>>
>> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
>> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
>> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
>> otherwise...
>>
>> Thanks everyone again!
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> Joe,
>>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one
>>> Kerry
>>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and
>>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with thousands
>>> of
>>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you say
>>> you
>>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So its
>>> fine
>>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
>>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do it
>>> alone.
>>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as at
>>> the
>>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do go,
>>> I
>>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
>>>
>>> Ashley
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From albert.k.yoo at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 22:38:11 2010
From: albert.k.yoo at gmail.com (Albert Yoo)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:38:11 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>

Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
<kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:

> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was just
> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old you
> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened for you.
>  Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
>
> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose, enjoy
> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>
> > Hi Kimberly and All:
> >
> > Okay let me clear a few things up.
> >
> > Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
> >
> > I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
> > to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
> > after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
> > a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
> > all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
> >
> > I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
> > practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
> > do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
> > not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
> > people.
> >
> > I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
> > for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
> > school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
> >
> > I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
> > to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
> > arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
> > the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
> >
> > I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
> > this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
> > haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
> > someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
> > asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
> > ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
> > "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
> >
> > Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
> > who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
> > loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
> > otherwise...
> >
> > Thanks everyone again!
> > Kerri
> >
> > On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> Joe,
> >> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one
> Kerry
> >> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and
> >> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
> thousands of
> >> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you say
> you
> >> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So its
> fine
> >> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
> >> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do it
> >> alone.
> >> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as at
> the
> >> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do
> go, I
> >> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
> >>
> >> Ashley
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
>

From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 11 22:54:05 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:54:05 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Al:

They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't that good
since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is making
his return...should be interesting.

Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help me or
use my cane to find my seat?

Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different opinions as I can!

Kerri

On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?
>
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
> <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:
>
>> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was just
>> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old you
>> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened for
>> you.
>>  Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
>>
>> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose, enjoy
>> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>
>> > Hi Kimberly and All:
>> >
>> > Okay let me clear a few things up.
>> >
>> > Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>> >
>> > I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
>> > to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
>> > after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
>> > a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
>> > all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>> >
>> > I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
>> > practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
>> > do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
>> > not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
>> > people.
>> >
>> > I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
>> > for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
>> > school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>> >
>> > I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
>> > to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
>> > arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
>> > the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
>> >
>> > I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
>> > this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
>> > haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
>> > someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
>> > asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
>> > ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
>> > "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
>> >
>> > Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
>> > who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
>> > loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
>> > otherwise...
>> >
>> > Thanks everyone again!
>> > Kerri
>> >
>> > On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> >> Joe,
>> >> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one
>> Kerry
>> >> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and
>> >> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
>> thousands of
>> >> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you say
>> you
>> >> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So its
>> fine
>> >> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
>> >> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do
>> >> it
>> >> alone.
>> >> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as at
>> the
>> >> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do
>> go, I
>> >> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
>> >>
>> >> Ashley
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> nabs-l mailing list
>> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> >> nabs-l:
>> >>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>> >>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > nabs-l mailing list
>> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> >
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>>
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
>>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Thu Nov 11 23:06:08 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:06:08 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Selling Mac Book Pro
Message-ID: <2E886E9F-29BF-4EFE-BC3D-E1A65BA572FC@mac.com>

Hello all:
Just wanted to let you know I'm selling a Mac Book Pro, 13 inch, 2.53 GHZ intel core 2 duo, 249 GB storage/4 GB Ram running OS 10.6.5 and iLife 11 , in extremely good condition, with case, charger and 10.6 install disk.

Please contact me offline at jorgeapaez at mac.com if you are interested with your best offer and we can talk.

Jorge





From missheather at comcast.net  Thu Nov 11 23:59:37 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:59:37 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded
	MajorCollegeSportingEvents
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal><48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus><39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2413AE0F53CD45809FACC6DD533BB1F9@heathersony>

Hi Kerri,
If you go early, there's no reason why you need someone to meet you 
and escort you. Assuming, that is, that the stadium is willing to 
provide you with such assistance. If the game starts at twelve, you 
could be dropped off at eleven. Or even ten thirty. That way you would 
have plenty of time to find your seat. As there would be thousands of 
other people finding their seats as well, I'm sure you wouldn't have 
any problem locating yours. If the stadium has multiple entrances, 
they probably can tell you what entrance would be closest to your 
seating section. In the end, only you will know what level of 
challenge you enjoy and what level of adventure suits your 
personality. Some people build up to big events. I myself would never 
do anything challenging if I had to build up to it. I jump in at the 
deep end and do whatever I want and take life and the adventure as it 
comes. Neither way is right or wrong, as such. But, my way is right 
for me, and the building up method is not right for me. However, the 
build-up method might be perfect and the absolute best way for another 
person. So, in the end, having established that you've nothing to fear 
from the drunks, and that you have strategies for getting help if you 
need it, you must decide what level of challenge you want, and which 
approach is most motivating and confidence-building for you. If you 
manage to get some stadium staff to guide you to and from your seat, 
what other challenges do you envisage that your solo visit to the 
stadium will give you. Apart from a trip to get some food, or to visit 
the rest-room, it all sounds fairly unchallenging to me. Finding your 
seat seems to be the major challenge and, from all that you've 
written, it sounds to me that this is what you'd like to do. I don't 
see why you shouldn't give it a try. Pack a lunch, or at least some 
healthy snacks, arrive as early as you think is good for you, and see 
what you can accomplish with random requests for directions. if you 
haven't found your seat within 20 minutes of game start time, you can 
always just ask a kind fellow spectator to assist you. In all my years 
of wandering about the world as a blind person I have found that just 
about every person you meet is happy to help. Take a close look at 
what you want to get out of the experience and plan for that. You 
won't be in personal danger.
So, now all you need to decide is, what do you want to accomplish out 
of the experience.
Just my thoughts.

Best,

Heather

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded 
MajorCollegeSportingEvents


Hi Kimberly and All:

Okay let me clear a few things up.

Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.

I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.

I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
people.

I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.

I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.

I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
"Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...

Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
otherwise...

Thanks everyone again!
Kerri

On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Joe,
> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one 
> Kerry
> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays 
> and
> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with 
> thousands of
> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you 
> say you
> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So 
> its fine
> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time 
> do it
> alone.
> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as 
> at the
> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I 
> do go, I
> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
>
> Ashley
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net 




From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 00:32:13 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 19:32:13 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded
	MajorCollegeSportingEvents
In-Reply-To: <2413AE0F53CD45809FACC6DD533BB1F9@heathersony>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<2413AE0F53CD45809FACC6DD533BB1F9@heathersony>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimMLsV6HryLyJ-f1nXCLkCD+eEFfgDbMdTxPXg3@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Heather and all!!

Ww, thanks for the reminder...you are absolutely right...it would
certainly be easier to have someone escort me...but you are so
right...if I do that then there is no challenge for me...I'm dropped
off, guided to my seat, guided right out of the stadium, picked right
back up...there is no challenge for me.

One question though...if it is indeed close to game time and I haven't
found my seat or do get extremely extremely lost/turned around and
need to get to the proper seat quickly do I just ask someone to guide
me?

The reason I am asking this is because if I go for this finding my
seat with my cane asking directions there of course will be noone
official waiting to help me...it'll be me, and the crowd...so if I do
find I am extremely lost and need to find my seat quickly...do I just
ask someone random to guide me?

I don't want to overplan this out but I also want to know what to do
if something happens or I get too lost...

Again thanks so much Heather for the good reminder of independent
travel and challenging yourself!

Kerri

On 11/11/10, H. Field <missheather at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Kerri,
> If you go early, there's no reason why you need someone to meet you
> and escort you. Assuming, that is, that the stadium is willing to
> provide you with such assistance. If the game starts at twelve, you
> could be dropped off at eleven. Or even ten thirty. That way you would
> have plenty of time to find your seat. As there would be thousands of
> other people finding their seats as well, I'm sure you wouldn't have
> any problem locating yours. If the stadium has multiple entrances,
> they probably can tell you what entrance would be closest to your
> seating section. In the end, only you will know what level of
> challenge you enjoy and what level of adventure suits your
> personality. Some people build up to big events. I myself would never
> do anything challenging if I had to build up to it. I jump in at the
> deep end and do whatever I want and take life and the adventure as it
> comes. Neither way is right or wrong, as such. But, my way is right
> for me, and the building up method is not right for me. However, the
> build-up method might be perfect and the absolute best way for another
> person. So, in the end, having established that you've nothing to fear
> from the drunks, and that you have strategies for getting help if you
> need it, you must decide what level of challenge you want, and which
> approach is most motivating and confidence-building for you. If you
> manage to get some stadium staff to guide you to and from your seat,
> what other challenges do you envisage that your solo visit to the
> stadium will give you. Apart from a trip to get some food, or to visit
> the rest-room, it all sounds fairly unchallenging to me. Finding your
> seat seems to be the major challenge and, from all that you've
> written, it sounds to me that this is what you'd like to do. I don't
> see why you shouldn't give it a try. Pack a lunch, or at least some
> healthy snacks, arrive as early as you think is good for you, and see
> what you can accomplish with random requests for directions. if you
> haven't found your seat within 20 minutes of game start time, you can
> always just ask a kind fellow spectator to assist you. In all my years
> of wandering about the world as a blind person I have found that just
> about every person you meet is happy to help. Take a close look at
> what you want to get out of the experience and plan for that. You
> won't be in personal danger.
> So, now all you need to decide is, what do you want to accomplish out
> of the experience.
> Just my thoughts.
>
> Best,
>
> Heather
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded
> MajorCollegeSportingEvents
>
>
> Hi Kimberly and All:
>
> Okay let me clear a few things up.
>
> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>
> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>
> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
> people.
>
> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>
> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
>
> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
>
> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
> otherwise...
>
> Thanks everyone again!
> Kerri
>
> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Joe,
>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one
>> Kerry
>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays
>> and
>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
>> thousands of
>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you
>> say you
>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So
>> its fine
>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time
>> do it
>> alone.
>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as
>> at the
>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I
>> do go, I
>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 00:47:15 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 19:47:15 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] WordWeb
Message-ID: <C96535A8893A40C99D90C9DAE4F012D3@Rufus>

Someone, I think it may've been Ginny, recommended WordWeb as a dictionary
tool.  I just downloaded it, and I have to say it's pretty darn accessible.
I'd be curious to know if others have figured out how to look up words from
within documents  and whether there's a hot key to return to the line of
tabs running along the top without using the JAWS cursor.  I thought I'd ask
before attempting to write a JAWS script.  Thanks for the recommendation!

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing



From missheather at comcast.net  Fri Nov 12 00:52:25 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 18:52:25 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At CrowdedMajorCollegeSportingEvents
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal><48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus><39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley><AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com><2413AE0F53CD45809FACC6DD533BB1F9@heathersony>
	<AANLkTimMLsV6HryLyJ-f1nXCLkCD+eEFfgDbMdTxPXg3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C28A11C5B7AE444BA744B13785A2B041@heathersony>

Hi Kerri,
Yep! You got it! You just ask someone if you think you've had enough 
challenge and want to find your seat. Probably a person sitting at the 
end of a row by the walk-way is the best choice, because they have 
found their seat and have buddies to guard their stuff. A walking 
person is likely still looking for their own seat. The sitting person, 
on the other hand,  will probably be happy to use up a few minutes of 
waiting time assisting you to find your seat. More than once when I 
have asked for assistance finding my seat at concerts or at festivals, 
people have said, yeh, I'll be happy to help you find your seat. But, 
you know, we have a spare seat with us if you'd like to stay, we had 
one for our friend who canceled at the last minute, so you're welcome 
to have it and stay with us. It wasn't a, pity the blind person, 
offer, it was just a friendly offer to a person alone at the party, so 
to speak. I've met some great folks that way, and even made a couple 
of friends.
It's up to you how you handle that one.
Just my thoughts.

Regards,

Heather

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At 
CrowdedMajorCollegeSportingEvents


Hi Heather and all!!

Ww, thanks for the reminder...you are absolutely right...it would
certainly be easier to have someone escort me...but you are so
right...if I do that then there is no challenge for me...I'm dropped
off, guided to my seat, guided right out of the stadium, picked right
back up...there is no challenge for me.

One question though...if it is indeed close to game time and I haven't
found my seat or do get extremely extremely lost/turned around and
need to get to the proper seat quickly do I just ask someone to guide
me?

The reason I am asking this is because if I go for this finding my
seat with my cane asking directions there of course will be noone
official waiting to help me...it'll be me, and the crowd...so if I do
find I am extremely lost and need to find my seat quickly...do I just
ask someone random to guide me?

I don't want to overplan this out but I also want to know what to do
if something happens or I get too lost...

Again thanks so much Heather for the good reminder of independent
travel and challenging yourself!

Kerri

On 11/11/10, H. Field <missheather at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Kerri,
> If you go early, there's no reason why you need someone to meet you
> and escort you. Assuming, that is, that the stadium is willing to
> provide you with such assistance. If the game starts at twelve, you
> could be dropped off at eleven. Or even ten thirty. That way you 
> would
> have plenty of time to find your seat. As there would be thousands 
> of
> other people finding their seats as well, I'm sure you wouldn't have
> any problem locating yours. If the stadium has multiple entrances,
> they probably can tell you what entrance would be closest to your
> seating section. In the end, only you will know what level of
> challenge you enjoy and what level of adventure suits your
> personality. Some people build up to big events. I myself would 
> never
> do anything challenging if I had to build up to it. I jump in at the
> deep end and do whatever I want and take life and the adventure as 
> it
> comes. Neither way is right or wrong, as such. But, my way is right
> for me, and the building up method is not right for me. However, the
> build-up method might be perfect and the absolute best way for 
> another
> person. So, in the end, having established that you've nothing to 
> fear
> from the drunks, and that you have strategies for getting help if 
> you
> need it, you must decide what level of challenge you want, and which
> approach is most motivating and confidence-building for you. If you
> manage to get some stadium staff to guide you to and from your seat,
> what other challenges do you envisage that your solo visit to the
> stadium will give you. Apart from a trip to get some food, or to 
> visit
> the rest-room, it all sounds fairly unchallenging to me. Finding 
> your
> seat seems to be the major challenge and, from all that you've
> written, it sounds to me that this is what you'd like to do. I don't
> see why you shouldn't give it a try. Pack a lunch, or at least some
> healthy snacks, arrive as early as you think is good for you, and 
> see
> what you can accomplish with random requests for directions. if you
> haven't found your seat within 20 minutes of game start time, you 
> can
> always just ask a kind fellow spectator to assist you. In all my 
> years
> of wandering about the world as a blind person I have found that 
> just
> about every person you meet is happy to help. Take a close look at
> what you want to get out of the experience and plan for that. You
> won't be in personal danger.
> So, now all you need to decide is, what do you want to accomplish 
> out
> of the experience.
> Just my thoughts.
>
> Best,
>
> Heather
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 2:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded
> MajorCollegeSportingEvents
>
>
> Hi Kimberly and All:
>
> Okay let me clear a few things up.
>
> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>
> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to 
> go
> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before 
> or
> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they 
> are
> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy 
> drunks
> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>
> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want 
> to
> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and 
> do
> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
> people.
>
> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do 
> that
> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes 
> our
> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>
> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made 
> arrangements
> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
>
> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
>
> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me 
> who
> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
> otherwise...
>
> Thanks everyone again!
> Kerri
>
> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Joe,
>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the 
>> one
>> Kerry
>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays
>> and
>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
>> thousands of
>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you
>> say you
>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So
>> its fine
>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time
>> do it
>> alone.
>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as
>> at the
>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I
>> do go, I
>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
>>
>> Ashley
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>> for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
> for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/missheather%40comcast.net 




From albert.k.yoo at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 01:07:46 2010
From: albert.k.yoo at gmail.com (Albert Yoo)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:07:46 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinZitT7jGuPhgzQuMjU=Z4SG-zEzJR2-9HRb+5j@mail.gmail.com>

get some one to help you to your seat. Are you going to ask some one to get
your food and go through the line with you? What is your email address?

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Al:
>
> They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't that good
> since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is making
> his return...should be interesting.
>
> Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
> sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help me or
> use my cane to find my seat?
>
> Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different opinions as I
> can!
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
> > <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:
> >
> >> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was just
> >> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old you
> >> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened for
> >> you.
> >>  Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
> >>
> >> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose, enjoy
> >> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
> >> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi Kimberly and All:
> >> >
> >> > Okay let me clear a few things up.
> >> >
> >> > Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
> >> >
> >> > I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
> >> > to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
> >> > after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
> >> > a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
> >> > all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
> >> >
> >> > I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
> >> > practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
> >> > do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
> >> > not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
> >> > people.
> >> >
> >> > I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
> >> > for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
> >> > school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
> >> >
> >> > I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
> >> > to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
> >> > arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
> >> > the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
> >> >
> >> > I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
> >> > this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
> >> > haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
> >> > someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
> >> > asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
> >> > ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
> >> > "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
> >> >
> >> > Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
> >> > who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
> >> > loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
> >> > otherwise...
> >> >
> >> > Thanks everyone again!
> >> > Kerri
> >> >
> >> > On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >> Joe,
> >> >> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one
> >> Kerry
> >> >> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and
> >> >> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
> >> thousands of
> >> >> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you
> say
> >> you
> >> >> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So
> its
> >> fine
> >> >> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
> >> >> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do
> >> >> it
> >> >> alone.
> >> >> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as
> at
> >> the
> >> >> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do
> >> go, I
> >> >> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
> >> >>
> >> >> Ashley
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> >> nabs-l:
> >> >>
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > nabs-l mailing list
> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >> >
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >>
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
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>

From kimthurman at insightbb.com  Fri Nov 12 01:20:27 2010
From: kimthurman at insightbb.com (Kimberly thurman)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:20:27 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded
	MajorCollegeSporting	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinZitT7jGuPhgzQuMjU=Z4SG-zEzJR2-9HRb+5j@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinZitT7jGuPhgzQuMjU=Z4SG-zEzJR2-9HRb+5j@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <276AD23D-215A-4A3F-8D41-F1707A052C10@insightbb.com>

Kerry, on a lighter note, just don't wear red and black on Saturday.  They're Cincinnati's colors, as well as the University of Louisville's.  If you have a University of West Virginia shirt, that would be a good choice.  Fans like to help fellow fans.  *smile*
On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Albert Yoo wrote:

> get some one to help you to your seat. Are you going to ask some one to get
> your food and go through the line with you? What is your email address?
> 
> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hi Al:
>> 
>> They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't that good
>> since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is making
>> his return...should be interesting.
>> 
>> Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
>> sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help me or
>> use my cane to find my seat?
>> 
>> Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different opinions as I
>> can!
>> 
>> Kerri
>> 
>> On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
>>> <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was just
>>>> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old you
>>>> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened for
>>>> you.
>>>> Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
>>>> 
>>>> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose, enjoy
>>>> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Kimberly and All:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Okay let me clear a few things up.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
>>>>> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
>>>>> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
>>>>> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
>>>>> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
>>>>> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
>>>>> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
>>>>> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
>>>>> people.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
>>>>> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
>>>>> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
>>>>> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
>>>>> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
>>>>> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
>>>>> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
>>>>> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
>>>>> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
>>>>> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
>>>>> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
>>>>> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
>>>>> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
>>>>> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
>>>>> otherwise...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks everyone again!
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one
>>>> Kerry
>>>>>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and
>>>>>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
>>>> thousands of
>>>>>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you
>> say
>>>> you
>>>>>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So
>> its
>>>> fine
>>>>>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
>>>>>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> alone.
>>>>>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as
>> at
>>>> the
>>>>>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do
>>>> go, I
>>>>>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>> 
>>>> 
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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> _______________________________________________
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From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 01:34:43 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:34:43 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <276AD23D-215A-4A3F-8D41-F1707A052C10@insightbb.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinZitT7jGuPhgzQuMjU=Z4SG-zEzJR2-9HRb+5j@mail.gmail.com>
	<276AD23D-215A-4A3F-8D41-F1707A052C10@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimKvoCZ8Ubg6KL8GDPcFL7BAc9UVQJ5Wf82=Vgg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kimberly and all:

Oh my goodness...I have tons of them...I am a huge huge WVU fan and
write about the team for a local radio station's website...believe me
I wouldn't wear anything but WVU stuff...

Kimberly since you've been to the stadium before...as long as I'm not
wandering the parking lots and am inside the stadium...do you think
it'd be safe/okay for me to try to use my cane and find my own seat?

Can you forsee any huge problems I may not be thinking of?

I'll go early around 10:30...I'll have my Iphone and a whistle...I'll
get dropped off by the entrance...I'll make sure it's the right
entrance for the tickets I have which are on the 50 yard line...I'll
make sure to have two ways to get home...anything I'm not thinking of
or need to be cautious/make sure of?

If I go in at 10:30 most of the drunks will still be tailgating and if
it's close to game time like around say 11:30/40ish and I haven't
found my seat yet I'll just take an arm...

Sound good to everyone? Anything else I may be forgetting/need to be
cautious of/not thinking of?

Kerri

On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
> Kerry, on a lighter note, just don't wear red and black on Saturday.
> They're Cincinnati's colors, as well as the University of Louisville's.  If
> you have a University of West Virginia shirt, that would be a good choice.
> Fans like to help fellow fans.  *smile*
> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Albert Yoo wrote:
>
>> get some one to help you to your seat. Are you going to ask some one to
>> get
>> your food and go through the line with you? What is your email address?
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Al:
>>>
>>> They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't that good
>>> since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is making
>>> his return...should be interesting.
>>>
>>> Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
>>> sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help me or
>>> use my cane to find my seat?
>>>
>>> Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different opinions as I
>>> can!
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
>>>> <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was
>>>>> just
>>>>> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old you
>>>>> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened for
>>>>> you.
>>>>> Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
>>>>>
>>>>> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose,
>>>>> enjoy
>>>>> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
>>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Kimberly and All:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay let me clear a few things up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
>>>>>> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
>>>>>> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
>>>>>> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
>>>>>> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
>>>>>> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
>>>>>> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
>>>>>> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
>>>>>> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
>>>>>> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
>>>>>> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
>>>>>> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
>>>>>> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
>>>>>> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
>>>>>> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
>>>>>> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
>>>>>> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
>>>>>> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
>>>>>> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
>>>>>> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
>>>>>> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
>>>>>> otherwise...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks everyone again!
>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one
>>>>> Kerry
>>>>>>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and
>>>>>>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
>>>>> thousands of
>>>>>>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you
>>> say
>>>>> you
>>>>>>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So
>>> its
>>>>> fine
>>>>>>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
>>>>>>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>> alone.
>>>>>>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as
>>> at
>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do
>>>>> go, I
>>>>>>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>
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>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From albert.k.yoo at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 01:35:23 2010
From: albert.k.yoo at gmail.com (Albert Yoo)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 20:35:23 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=WJbdPw31YLxk5g3+Fp_DrBWYatQP2QzKOp65W@mail.gmail.com>

Carrie, it is your first game. I don't go to many sporting events. I would
try and make your way to the front and close as you can get to the front
because you could get sounds of the field. I don't think it would be too
much fun if you were in the back of the stadium. You have to be as close to
the field as you can.

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Al:
>
> They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't that good
> since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is making
> his return...should be interesting.
>
> Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
> sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help me or
> use my cane to find my seat?
>
> Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different opinions as I
> can!
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
> > <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:
> >
> >> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was just
> >> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old you
> >> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened for
> >> you.
> >>  Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
> >>
> >> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose, enjoy
> >> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
> >> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hi Kimberly and All:
> >> >
> >> > Okay let me clear a few things up.
> >> >
> >> > Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
> >> >
> >> > I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
> >> > to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
> >> > after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
> >> > a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
> >> > all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
> >> >
> >> > I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
> >> > practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
> >> > do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
> >> > not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
> >> > people.
> >> >
> >> > I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
> >> > for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
> >> > school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
> >> >
> >> > I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
> >> > to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
> >> > arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
> >> > the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
> >> >
> >> > I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
> >> > this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
> >> > haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
> >> > someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
> >> > asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
> >> > ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
> >> > "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
> >> >
> >> > Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
> >> > who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
> >> > loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
> >> > otherwise...
> >> >
> >> > Thanks everyone again!
> >> > Kerri
> >> >
> >> > On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >> >> Joe,
> >> >> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one
> >> Kerry
> >> >> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and
> >> >> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
> >> thousands of
> >> >> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you
> say
> >> you
> >> >> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So
> its
> >> fine
> >> >> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
> >> >> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do
> >> >> it
> >> >> alone.
> >> >> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as
> at
> >> the
> >> >> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do
> >> go, I
> >> >> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
> >> >>
> >> >> Ashley
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> >> nabs-l:
> >> >>
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > nabs-l mailing list
> >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >> >
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> nabs-l mailing list
> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> >> nabs-l:
> >>
> >>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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> >
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> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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From kimthurman at insightbb.com  Fri Nov 12 02:06:45 2010
From: kimthurman at insightbb.com (Kimberly thurman)
Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 21:06:45 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded
	MajorCollegeSporting	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimKvoCZ8Ubg6KL8GDPcFL7BAc9UVQJ5Wf82=Vgg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinZitT7jGuPhgzQuMjU=Z4SG-zEzJR2-9HRb+5j@mail.gmail.com>
	<276AD23D-215A-4A3F-8D41-F1707A052C10@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTimKvoCZ8Ubg6KL8GDPcFL7BAc9UVQJ5Wf82=Vgg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87CEF516-9CF3-42A2-92D0-3F94470CC40B@insightbb.com>

Sounds like you have it pretty well planned out.  You're obviously going to have to ask for assistance of one sort or another, as you won't know which way to go to get to your section without asking anybody.  Stadiums have such wide concourses and hallways with ramps, stairs, concessions stands, big open areas, etc. that I would take any assistance offered me  Taking someone's arm would probably be a wise idea.  If you were going to have the same seat for several games each season like folks with season tickets, it might be worth it to learn the exact route to your seat, but if you are not going to sit there next time you go to a football game, there's not much use in memorizing the route.
On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

> Hi Kimberly and all:
> 
> Oh my goodness...I have tons of them...I am a huge huge WVU fan and
> write about the team for a local radio station's website...believe me
> I wouldn't wear anything but WVU stuff...
> 
> Kimberly since you've been to the stadium before...as long as I'm not
> wandering the parking lots and am inside the stadium...do you think
> it'd be safe/okay for me to try to use my cane and find my own seat?
> 
> Can you forsee any huge problems I may not be thinking of?
> 
> I'll go early around 10:30...I'll have my Iphone and a whistle...I'll
> get dropped off by the entrance...I'll make sure it's the right
> entrance for the tickets I have which are on the 50 yard line...I'll
> make sure to have two ways to get home...anything I'm not thinking of
> or need to be cautious/make sure of?
> 
> If I go in at 10:30 most of the drunks will still be tailgating and if
> it's close to game time like around say 11:30/40ish and I haven't
> found my seat yet I'll just take an arm...
> 
> Sound good to everyone? Anything else I may be forgetting/need to be
> cautious of/not thinking of?
> 
> Kerri
> 
> On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>> Kerry, on a lighter note, just don't wear red and black on Saturday.
>> They're Cincinnati's colors, as well as the University of Louisville's.  If
>> you have a University of West Virginia shirt, that would be a good choice.
>> Fans like to help fellow fans.  *smile*
>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Albert Yoo wrote:
>> 
>>> get some one to help you to your seat. Are you going to ask some one to
>>> get
>>> your food and go through the line with you? What is your email address?
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hi Al:
>>>> 
>>>> They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't that good
>>>> since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is making
>>>> his return...should be interesting.
>>>> 
>>>> Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
>>>> sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help me or
>>>> use my cane to find my seat?
>>>> 
>>>> Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different opinions as I
>>>> can!
>>>> 
>>>> Kerri
>>>> 
>>>> On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
>>>>> <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old you
>>>>>> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened for
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>> Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose,
>>>>>> enjoy
>>>>>> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
>>>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi Kimberly and All:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Okay let me clear a few things up.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
>>>>>>> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
>>>>>>> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
>>>>>>> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
>>>>>>> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
>>>>>>> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
>>>>>>> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
>>>>>>> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
>>>>>>> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
>>>>>>> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
>>>>>>> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
>>>>>>> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
>>>>>>> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
>>>>>>> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
>>>>>>> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
>>>>>>> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
>>>>>>> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
>>>>>>> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
>>>>>>> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
>>>>>>> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
>>>>>>> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
>>>>>>> otherwise...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks everyone again!
>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one
>>>>>> Kerry
>>>>>>>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and
>>>>>>>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
>>>>>> thousands of
>>>>>>>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you
>>>> say
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So
>>>> its
>>>>>> fine
>>>>>>>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
>>>>>>>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> alone.
>>>>>>>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as
>>>> at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do
>>>>>> go, I
>>>>>>>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> 
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>> 
>> 
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 06:48:15 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 01:48:15 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <87CEF516-9CF3-42A2-92D0-3F94470CC40B@insightbb.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinZitT7jGuPhgzQuMjU=Z4SG-zEzJR2-9HRb+5j@mail.gmail.com>
	<276AD23D-215A-4A3F-8D41-F1707A052C10@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTimKvoCZ8Ubg6KL8GDPcFL7BAc9UVQJ5Wf82=Vgg@mail.gmail.com>
	<87CEF516-9CF3-42A2-92D0-3F94470CC40B@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTineP4xhV+fz-hGWDjZ+S7cNwUt6bmJZ_934WL-b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!

Okay, there may be a problem with my little plan lol...I don't know...

I go to a bar every week for karaoke. The bar gets very loud, crowded,
and obviously people drink...I do not but others do.

I am ashamed to admit this but until recently I had the bartenders or
a waitress help me to the restroom door because I was afraid of the
drunks.

I know a bar is not a stadium but tonight I really tried to simulate
the experience I may have at the stadium...instead of having anyone
follow me to make sure I made it or having someone who works there
help me when I went the wrong way I jumped up, grabbed my cane and
tried to just head for the bathroom myself...trying to blend into the
crowd and interacting with the people to see what kind of reaction I
would get and to try to sort of see how the drunks would be like.

The experience wasn't the best. I couldn't take two or three steps
without someone coming over, and grabbing my hand to try to help me.

I tried to be cheerful and say "I'm good" but it's sort of tricky to
get to the bathroom in this bar and so often I was gong the wrong way.
If the people would've just left me alone and let me explore I
could've found my way...but I could barely take three steps without
someone trying to help.

Also, once I got really turned around and was at the front door. I
didn't realize I was at the door however until someone opened it for
me thinking I was trying to go outside. I quickly backed away and said
"no I don't want to go outside."

Another time I had gotten up and was trying to weave my way through
the people and a guy asked in a sort of harsh voice "where you going
kid?" Quickly I said "the bathroom" he sort of directed me and luckily
I was in the right hallway and knew where to go and so very quickly
walked away...

But, I don't know how this whole finding my seat on my own thing will
go...I am thinking every time I take a step someone will be wanting to
help. Drunks like that one that said "where you going kid" kind of
scare me...I do look like a "kid" as I'm so tiny I look like I'm about
15...

First, how do you tell sighted people to leave you alone and let you
explore? I tried to say in a very cheerful voice "I'm good" but that
must've sounded very strange to the person when I was usually going
the wrong way. How do you tell them without being mean to leave you
alone? I don't want to push everyone away...but at the same time I
need room to explore if I am going to find my section on my own...

Also I did notice that the loud noise got me turned around a couple of
times like when I was at the front door and about to go outside which
was nowhere near the bathroom.

What do I do about any harsh/mean drunks who see me as a "kid" who
want to take advantage of me? The bar I was at is very small in
comparison to the stadium and there will be many many many more
people...many drunk, some not...

How is the best way to handle the not so friendly drunks and the fact
that I can't take two or three steps without people rushing to help.

Like I said...I don't want to push people away and end up getting
myself so lost/turned around that when I need help there is noone
around...but if I am going to do this I will need to explore...

I am just saying...I don't know if this will go as smoothly as I
thought...it doesn't seem as if I'll really have the room to just
wander around and explore...

And the types of people like that guy who said "where ya going kid"
kind of scare me...what do I do if I get into a sticky situation?

I know this bar is no real simulation to a stadium but it gave me the
experience of navigating with my cane in a crowd of people that were
drinking and having to interact with people I didn't know...

Thanks,

Kerri

On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
> Sounds like you have it pretty well planned out.  You're obviously going to
> have to ask for assistance of one sort or another, as you won't know which
> way to go to get to your section without asking anybody.  Stadiums have such
> wide concourses and hallways with ramps, stairs, concessions stands, big
> open areas, etc. that I would take any assistance offered me  Taking
> someone's arm would probably be a wise idea.  If you were going to have the
> same seat for several games each season like folks with season tickets, it
> might be worth it to learn the exact route to your seat, but if you are not
> going to sit there next time you go to a football game, there's not much use
> in memorizing the route.
> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>
>> Hi Kimberly and all:
>>
>> Oh my goodness...I have tons of them...I am a huge huge WVU fan and
>> write about the team for a local radio station's website...believe me
>> I wouldn't wear anything but WVU stuff...
>>
>> Kimberly since you've been to the stadium before...as long as I'm not
>> wandering the parking lots and am inside the stadium...do you think
>> it'd be safe/okay for me to try to use my cane and find my own seat?
>>
>> Can you forsee any huge problems I may not be thinking of?
>>
>> I'll go early around 10:30...I'll have my Iphone and a whistle...I'll
>> get dropped off by the entrance...I'll make sure it's the right
>> entrance for the tickets I have which are on the 50 yard line...I'll
>> make sure to have two ways to get home...anything I'm not thinking of
>> or need to be cautious/make sure of?
>>
>> If I go in at 10:30 most of the drunks will still be tailgating and if
>> it's close to game time like around say 11:30/40ish and I haven't
>> found my seat yet I'll just take an arm...
>>
>> Sound good to everyone? Anything else I may be forgetting/need to be
>> cautious of/not thinking of?
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>>> Kerry, on a lighter note, just don't wear red and black on Saturday.
>>> They're Cincinnati's colors, as well as the University of Louisville's.
>>> If
>>> you have a University of West Virginia shirt, that would be a good
>>> choice.
>>> Fans like to help fellow fans.  *smile*
>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Albert Yoo wrote:
>>>
>>>> get some one to help you to your seat. Are you going to ask some one to
>>>> get
>>>> your food and go through the line with you? What is your email address?
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Al:
>>>>>
>>>>> They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't that good
>>>>> since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is making
>>>>> his return...should be interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
>>>>> sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help me or
>>>>> use my cane to find my seat?
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different opinions as
>>>>> I
>>>>> can!
>>>>>
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
>>>>>> <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old you
>>>>>>> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>> Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose,
>>>>>>> enjoy
>>>>>>> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
>>>>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Kimberly and All:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Okay let me clear a few things up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to
>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy
>>>>>>>> drunks
>>>>>>>> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
>>>>>>>> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made
>>>>>>>> arrangements
>>>>>>>> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
>>>>>>>> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
>>>>>>>> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
>>>>>>>> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
>>>>>>>> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
>>>>>>>> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
>>>>>>>> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
>>>>>>>> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
>>>>>>>> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
>>>>>>>> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
>>>>>>>> otherwise...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks everyone again!
>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the
>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> Kerry
>>>>>>>>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
>>>>>>> thousands of
>>>>>>>>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you
>>>>> say
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So
>>>>> its
>>>>>>> fine
>>>>>>>>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
>>>>>>>>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> alone.
>>>>>>>>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as
>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> go, I
>>>>>>>>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 07:14:20 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 02:14:20 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTineP4xhV+fz-hGWDjZ+S7cNwUt6bmJZ_934WL-b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
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Message-ID: <AANLkTikHL9H8MR2DNib49r=jijQnK-djMxAOS_bSRD3W@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All again:

A couple of things I forgot to mention.

Kimberly...I'm not doing this to learn a route...I don't do route
travel...I do structured discovery travel...and the reason I am doing
this is not to learn a route at all but to gain confidence interacting
with public, drunks, get practice using my cane, and to show myself I
can do something I want to and to give myself a challenge.

Oh, and as for the drunk guy who called me a "kid"...I may have
misunderstood his intent or maybe he wasn't as harsh as I may have
thought...but I guess what scares me so much is that I haven't been
exposed to public/interacting with strangers much...when I traveled in
the past (like up until around a year ago) I was always guided
everywhere, and was always of course with someone so never really had
to interact.

I know it would be easy to read these messages and tell me to just
have someone who works at the stadium help me and that would make
things easy but at the same time I need to give myself the confidence
and need to get used to interacting with the public...

I really want to do this...just what should I do if I get around the
wrong/mean/harsh drunk?

I know I'll have my whistle which should scare them away but what
else? I'll have my iphone but it may be too loud to hear it...

I don't want to over-analyze this so much that I completely scare
myself out of it but I also want to be as safe as possible...I don't
want to get hurt, raped, kidnapped, or followed home/stalked...

Am I over-thinking this and scaring myself out of it?

Should I be fine since I'm inside the stadium?

Oh I really want to do this so much...I think it will help me gain
tons of confidence and show me that I can do things like this...but
the fear sucks lol!

Kerri

On 11/12/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All!
>
> Okay, there may be a problem with my little plan lol...I don't know...
>
> I go to a bar every week for karaoke. The bar gets very loud, crowded,
> and obviously people drink...I do not but others do.
>
> I am ashamed to admit this but until recently I had the bartenders or
> a waitress help me to the restroom door because I was afraid of the
> drunks.
>
> I know a bar is not a stadium but tonight I really tried to simulate
> the experience I may have at the stadium...instead of having anyone
> follow me to make sure I made it or having someone who works there
> help me when I went the wrong way I jumped up, grabbed my cane and
> tried to just head for the bathroom myself...trying to blend into the
> crowd and interacting with the people to see what kind of reaction I
> would get and to try to sort of see how the drunks would be like.
>
> The experience wasn't the best. I couldn't take two or three steps
> without someone coming over, and grabbing my hand to try to help me.
>
> I tried to be cheerful and say "I'm good" but it's sort of tricky to
> get to the bathroom in this bar and so often I was gong the wrong way.
> If the people would've just left me alone and let me explore I
> could've found my way...but I could barely take three steps without
> someone trying to help.
>
> Also, once I got really turned around and was at the front door. I
> didn't realize I was at the door however until someone opened it for
> me thinking I was trying to go outside. I quickly backed away and said
> "no I don't want to go outside."
>
> Another time I had gotten up and was trying to weave my way through
> the people and a guy asked in a sort of harsh voice "where you going
> kid?" Quickly I said "the bathroom" he sort of directed me and luckily
> I was in the right hallway and knew where to go and so very quickly
> walked away...
>
> But, I don't know how this whole finding my seat on my own thing will
> go...I am thinking every time I take a step someone will be wanting to
> help. Drunks like that one that said "where you going kid" kind of
> scare me...I do look like a "kid" as I'm so tiny I look like I'm about
> 15...
>
> First, how do you tell sighted people to leave you alone and let you
> explore? I tried to say in a very cheerful voice "I'm good" but that
> must've sounded very strange to the person when I was usually going
> the wrong way. How do you tell them without being mean to leave you
> alone? I don't want to push everyone away...but at the same time I
> need room to explore if I am going to find my section on my own...
>
> Also I did notice that the loud noise got me turned around a couple of
> times like when I was at the front door and about to go outside which
> was nowhere near the bathroom.
>
> What do I do about any harsh/mean drunks who see me as a "kid" who
> want to take advantage of me? The bar I was at is very small in
> comparison to the stadium and there will be many many many more
> people...many drunk, some not...
>
> How is the best way to handle the not so friendly drunks and the fact
> that I can't take two or three steps without people rushing to help.
>
> Like I said...I don't want to push people away and end up getting
> myself so lost/turned around that when I need help there is noone
> around...but if I am going to do this I will need to explore...
>
> I am just saying...I don't know if this will go as smoothly as I
> thought...it doesn't seem as if I'll really have the room to just
> wander around and explore...
>
> And the types of people like that guy who said "where ya going kid"
> kind of scare me...what do I do if I get into a sticky situation?
>
> I know this bar is no real simulation to a stadium but it gave me the
> experience of navigating with my cane in a crowd of people that were
> drinking and having to interact with people I didn't know...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>> Sounds like you have it pretty well planned out.  You're obviously going
>> to
>> have to ask for assistance of one sort or another, as you won't know
>> which
>> way to go to get to your section without asking anybody.  Stadiums have
>> such
>> wide concourses and hallways with ramps, stairs, concessions stands, big
>> open areas, etc. that I would take any assistance offered me  Taking
>> someone's arm would probably be a wise idea.  If you were going to have
>> the
>> same seat for several games each season like folks with season tickets,
>> it
>> might be worth it to learn the exact route to your seat, but if you are
>> not
>> going to sit there next time you go to a football game, there's not much
>> use
>> in memorizing the route.
>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Kimberly and all:
>>>
>>> Oh my goodness...I have tons of them...I am a huge huge WVU fan and
>>> write about the team for a local radio station's website...believe me
>>> I wouldn't wear anything but WVU stuff...
>>>
>>> Kimberly since you've been to the stadium before...as long as I'm not
>>> wandering the parking lots and am inside the stadium...do you think
>>> it'd be safe/okay for me to try to use my cane and find my own seat?
>>>
>>> Can you forsee any huge problems I may not be thinking of?
>>>
>>> I'll go early around 10:30...I'll have my Iphone and a whistle...I'll
>>> get dropped off by the entrance...I'll make sure it's the right
>>> entrance for the tickets I have which are on the 50 yard line...I'll
>>> make sure to have two ways to get home...anything I'm not thinking of
>>> or need to be cautious/make sure of?
>>>
>>> If I go in at 10:30 most of the drunks will still be tailgating and if
>>> it's close to game time like around say 11:30/40ish and I haven't
>>> found my seat yet I'll just take an arm...
>>>
>>> Sound good to everyone? Anything else I may be forgetting/need to be
>>> cautious of/not thinking of?
>>>
>>> Kerri
>>>
>>> On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>>>> Kerry, on a lighter note, just don't wear red and black on Saturday.
>>>> They're Cincinnati's colors, as well as the University of Louisville's.
>>>> If
>>>> you have a University of West Virginia shirt, that would be a good
>>>> choice.
>>>> Fans like to help fellow fans.  *smile*
>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Albert Yoo wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> get some one to help you to your seat. Are you going to ask some one
>>>>> to
>>>>> get
>>>>> your food and go through the line with you? What is your email
>>>>> address?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Al:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't that
>>>>>> good
>>>>>> since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is making
>>>>>> his return...should be interesting.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
>>>>>> sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help me or
>>>>>> use my cane to find my seat?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different opinions
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> I
>>>>>> can!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
>>>>>>> <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was
>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>> Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose,
>>>>>>>> enjoy
>>>>>>>> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
>>>>>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hi Kimberly and All:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Okay let me clear a few things up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to
>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either
>>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they
>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy
>>>>>>>>> drunks
>>>>>>>>> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I
>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
>>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do
>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes
>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made
>>>>>>>>> arrangements
>>>>>>>>> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have
>>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>>> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander
>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the
>>>>>>>>> game.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
>>>>>>>>> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
>>>>>>>>> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
>>>>>>>>> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly
>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
>>>>>>>>> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having
>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me
>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
>>>>>>>>> otherwise...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks everyone again!
>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the
>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> Kerry
>>>>>>>>>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
>>>>>>>> thousands of
>>>>>>>>>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as
>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.
>>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>> fine
>>>>>>>>>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times
>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next
>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>> alone.
>>>>>>>>>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such
>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> go, I
>>>>>>>>>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things
>>>>>>>>>> together.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 07:40:12 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 02:40:12 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikHL9H8MR2DNib49r=jijQnK-djMxAOS_bSRD3W@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinZitT7jGuPhgzQuMjU=Z4SG-zEzJR2-9HRb+5j@mail.gmail.com>
	<276AD23D-215A-4A3F-8D41-F1707A052C10@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTimKvoCZ8Ubg6KL8GDPcFL7BAc9UVQJ5Wf82=Vgg@mail.gmail.com>
	<87CEF516-9CF3-42A2-92D0-3F94470CC40B@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTineP4xhV+fz-hGWDjZ+S7cNwUt6bmJZ_934WL-b@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikHL9H8MR2DNib49r=jijQnK-djMxAOS_bSRD3W@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikSJByaXxDNxOC90qROPzwDUrwk565JzkNAOV26@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All one more time...last message I promise!

I just wanted to appologize for the last message I sent about the
fears and being safe/not being stalked, raped or anything like
that...I just remembered I will be arriving at the stadium at 10:30
AM...most of the drunks will still be in the parking lot...things will
be fine I know they will...I just need to try to not think so
much...and I also forgot that tomorrow (Friday) is the basketball
game...that will give me some experience of what the football game
should be like saturday and it will show me how well I do with dealing
with the overhelpful public...I just need to keep things in
perspective and try to not jump to the worst...

This over-thinking/jumping to the worst before the big event is what I
did before convention too...and look how well/smoothly convention
went!


Kerri

On 11/12/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All again:
>
> A couple of things I forgot to mention.
>
> Kimberly...I'm not doing this to learn a route...I don't do route
> travel...I do structured discovery travel...and the reason I am doing
> this is not to learn a route at all but to gain confidence interacting
> with public, drunks, get practice using my cane, and to show myself I
> can do something I want to and to give myself a challenge.
>
> Oh, and as for the drunk guy who called me a "kid"...I may have
> misunderstood his intent or maybe he wasn't as harsh as I may have
> thought...but I guess what scares me so much is that I haven't been
> exposed to public/interacting with strangers much...when I traveled in
> the past (like up until around a year ago) I was always guided
> everywhere, and was always of course with someone so never really had
> to interact.
>
> I know it would be easy to read these messages and tell me to just
> have someone who works at the stadium help me and that would make
> things easy but at the same time I need to give myself the confidence
> and need to get used to interacting with the public...
>
> I really want to do this...just what should I do if I get around the
> wrong/mean/harsh drunk?
>
> I know I'll have my whistle which should scare them away but what
> else? I'll have my iphone but it may be too loud to hear it...
>
> I don't want to over-analyze this so much that I completely scare
> myself out of it but I also want to be as safe as possible...I don't
> want to get hurt, raped, kidnapped, or followed home/stalked...
>
> Am I over-thinking this and scaring myself out of it?
>
> Should I be fine since I'm inside the stadium?
>
> Oh I really want to do this so much...I think it will help me gain
> tons of confidence and show me that I can do things like this...but
> the fear sucks lol!
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/12/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi All!
>>
>> Okay, there may be a problem with my little plan lol...I don't know...
>>
>> I go to a bar every week for karaoke. The bar gets very loud, crowded,
>> and obviously people drink...I do not but others do.
>>
>> I am ashamed to admit this but until recently I had the bartenders or
>> a waitress help me to the restroom door because I was afraid of the
>> drunks.
>>
>> I know a bar is not a stadium but tonight I really tried to simulate
>> the experience I may have at the stadium...instead of having anyone
>> follow me to make sure I made it or having someone who works there
>> help me when I went the wrong way I jumped up, grabbed my cane and
>> tried to just head for the bathroom myself...trying to blend into the
>> crowd and interacting with the people to see what kind of reaction I
>> would get and to try to sort of see how the drunks would be like.
>>
>> The experience wasn't the best. I couldn't take two or three steps
>> without someone coming over, and grabbing my hand to try to help me.
>>
>> I tried to be cheerful and say "I'm good" but it's sort of tricky to
>> get to the bathroom in this bar and so often I was gong the wrong way.
>> If the people would've just left me alone and let me explore I
>> could've found my way...but I could barely take three steps without
>> someone trying to help.
>>
>> Also, once I got really turned around and was at the front door. I
>> didn't realize I was at the door however until someone opened it for
>> me thinking I was trying to go outside. I quickly backed away and said
>> "no I don't want to go outside."
>>
>> Another time I had gotten up and was trying to weave my way through
>> the people and a guy asked in a sort of harsh voice "where you going
>> kid?" Quickly I said "the bathroom" he sort of directed me and luckily
>> I was in the right hallway and knew where to go and so very quickly
>> walked away...
>>
>> But, I don't know how this whole finding my seat on my own thing will
>> go...I am thinking every time I take a step someone will be wanting to
>> help. Drunks like that one that said "where you going kid" kind of
>> scare me...I do look like a "kid" as I'm so tiny I look like I'm about
>> 15...
>>
>> First, how do you tell sighted people to leave you alone and let you
>> explore? I tried to say in a very cheerful voice "I'm good" but that
>> must've sounded very strange to the person when I was usually going
>> the wrong way. How do you tell them without being mean to leave you
>> alone? I don't want to push everyone away...but at the same time I
>> need room to explore if I am going to find my section on my own...
>>
>> Also I did notice that the loud noise got me turned around a couple of
>> times like when I was at the front door and about to go outside which
>> was nowhere near the bathroom.
>>
>> What do I do about any harsh/mean drunks who see me as a "kid" who
>> want to take advantage of me? The bar I was at is very small in
>> comparison to the stadium and there will be many many many more
>> people...many drunk, some not...
>>
>> How is the best way to handle the not so friendly drunks and the fact
>> that I can't take two or three steps without people rushing to help.
>>
>> Like I said...I don't want to push people away and end up getting
>> myself so lost/turned around that when I need help there is noone
>> around...but if I am going to do this I will need to explore...
>>
>> I am just saying...I don't know if this will go as smoothly as I
>> thought...it doesn't seem as if I'll really have the room to just
>> wander around and explore...
>>
>> And the types of people like that guy who said "where ya going kid"
>> kind of scare me...what do I do if I get into a sticky situation?
>>
>> I know this bar is no real simulation to a stadium but it gave me the
>> experience of navigating with my cane in a crowd of people that were
>> drinking and having to interact with people I didn't know...
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>>> Sounds like you have it pretty well planned out.  You're obviously going
>>> to
>>> have to ask for assistance of one sort or another, as you won't know
>>> which
>>> way to go to get to your section without asking anybody.  Stadiums have
>>> such
>>> wide concourses and hallways with ramps, stairs, concessions stands, big
>>> open areas, etc. that I would take any assistance offered me  Taking
>>> someone's arm would probably be a wise idea.  If you were going to have
>>> the
>>> same seat for several games each season like folks with season tickets,
>>> it
>>> might be worth it to learn the exact route to your seat, but if you are
>>> not
>>> going to sit there next time you go to a football game, there's not much
>>> use
>>> in memorizing the route.
>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Kimberly and all:
>>>>
>>>> Oh my goodness...I have tons of them...I am a huge huge WVU fan and
>>>> write about the team for a local radio station's website...believe me
>>>> I wouldn't wear anything but WVU stuff...
>>>>
>>>> Kimberly since you've been to the stadium before...as long as I'm not
>>>> wandering the parking lots and am inside the stadium...do you think
>>>> it'd be safe/okay for me to try to use my cane and find my own seat?
>>>>
>>>> Can you forsee any huge problems I may not be thinking of?
>>>>
>>>> I'll go early around 10:30...I'll have my Iphone and a whistle...I'll
>>>> get dropped off by the entrance...I'll make sure it's the right
>>>> entrance for the tickets I have which are on the 50 yard line...I'll
>>>> make sure to have two ways to get home...anything I'm not thinking of
>>>> or need to be cautious/make sure of?
>>>>
>>>> If I go in at 10:30 most of the drunks will still be tailgating and if
>>>> it's close to game time like around say 11:30/40ish and I haven't
>>>> found my seat yet I'll just take an arm...
>>>>
>>>> Sound good to everyone? Anything else I may be forgetting/need to be
>>>> cautious of/not thinking of?
>>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>> On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>>>>> Kerry, on a lighter note, just don't wear red and black on Saturday.
>>>>> They're Cincinnati's colors, as well as the University of
>>>>> Louisville's.
>>>>> If
>>>>> you have a University of West Virginia shirt, that would be a good
>>>>> choice.
>>>>> Fans like to help fellow fans.  *smile*
>>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Albert Yoo wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> get some one to help you to your seat. Are you going to ask some one
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> your food and go through the line with you? What is your email
>>>>>> address?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Al:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't that
>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is making
>>>>>>> his return...should be interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
>>>>>>> sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help me
>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>> use my cane to find my seat?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different opinions
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> can!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
>>>>>>>> <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I
>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me
>>>>>>>>> frightened
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>> Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose,
>>>>>>>>> enjoy
>>>>>>>>> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Kimberly and All:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Okay let me clear a few things up.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either
>>>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking
>>>>>>>>>> lots...they
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy
>>>>>>>>>> drunks
>>>>>>>>>> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I
>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
>>>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes
>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made
>>>>>>>>>> arrangements
>>>>>>>>>> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have
>>>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>>>> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander
>>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>>> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the
>>>>>>>>>> game.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
>>>>>>>>>> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
>>>>>>>>>> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having
>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
>>>>>>>>>> otherwise...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks everyone again!
>>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>>>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the
>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> Kerry
>>>>>>>>>>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school
>>>>>>>>>>> plays
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
>>>>>>>>> thousands of
>>>>>>>>>>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.
>>>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>> fine
>>>>>>>>>>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times
>>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next
>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> alone.
>>>>>>>>>>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> go, I
>>>>>>>>>>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things
>>>>>>>>>>> together.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> _______________________________________________
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>


From liamskitten at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 07:41:07 2010
From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Courtney Stover)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 01:41:07 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikHL9H8MR2DNib49r=jijQnK-djMxAOS_bSRD3W@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinZitT7jGuPhgzQuMjU=Z4SG-zEzJR2-9HRb+5j@mail.gmail.com>
	<276AD23D-215A-4A3F-8D41-F1707A052C10@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTimKvoCZ8Ubg6KL8GDPcFL7BAc9UVQJ5Wf82=Vgg@mail.gmail.com>
	<87CEF516-9CF3-42A2-92D0-3F94470CC40B@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTineP4xhV+fz-hGWDjZ+S7cNwUt6bmJZ_934WL-b@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTikHL9H8MR2DNib49r=jijQnK-djMxAOS_bSRD3W@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTin2W9=wQ3futhMuy1qnDc7UXmOxcKO16aaUWuZ2@mail.gmail.com>

Kerri,

I've just been chatting with my mother, who's a mad sports fan.

She gave me a couple of tips you might keep in mind.  Firstly, if you
arrive at the game as early as you're planning to, a large percentage
of the drunks are going to be in the parking lot, not inside the
stadium.  The people that are going to be in the stadium are going to
be large groups.  For instance, the delegations from each university
along with their marching bands will be setting up.  This means that
you can explore without too much fear.

Secondly, at the ends of the coridoors that divide the sections, there
are usually ushers who will ask you if you know where you're going/if
you need help.  This means that they will be reliable people to ask
about what section you're in etc. and if you get lost, they'll most
probably be quite glad to guide you as that's there job.  The thing it
might be helpful to remember is that if they routinely have people
like this stationed there, sighted people get lost, too; this makes it
much less embarrassing to ask for help, as there'll be loads of
sighted people doing it.

Whether or not you go and the things you do once you get there are
completely your choice; these are just things to keep in mind.
Courtney

On 11/12/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All again:
>
> A couple of things I forgot to mention.
>
> Kimberly...I'm not doing this to learn a route...I don't do route
> travel...I do structured discovery travel...and the reason I am doing
> this is not to learn a route at all but to gain confidence interacting
> with public, drunks, get practice using my cane, and to show myself I
> can do something I want to and to give myself a challenge.
>
> Oh, and as for the drunk guy who called me a "kid"...I may have
> misunderstood his intent or maybe he wasn't as harsh as I may have
> thought...but I guess what scares me so much is that I haven't been
> exposed to public/interacting with strangers much...when I traveled in
> the past (like up until around a year ago) I was always guided
> everywhere, and was always of course with someone so never really had
> to interact.
>
> I know it would be easy to read these messages and tell me to just
> have someone who works at the stadium help me and that would make
> things easy but at the same time I need to give myself the confidence
> and need to get used to interacting with the public...
>
> I really want to do this...just what should I do if I get around the
> wrong/mean/harsh drunk?
>
> I know I'll have my whistle which should scare them away but what
> else? I'll have my iphone but it may be too loud to hear it...
>
> I don't want to over-analyze this so much that I completely scare
> myself out of it but I also want to be as safe as possible...I don't
> want to get hurt, raped, kidnapped, or followed home/stalked...
>
> Am I over-thinking this and scaring myself out of it?
>
> Should I be fine since I'm inside the stadium?
>
> Oh I really want to do this so much...I think it will help me gain
> tons of confidence and show me that I can do things like this...but
> the fear sucks lol!
>
> Kerri
>
> On 11/12/10, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi All!
>>
>> Okay, there may be a problem with my little plan lol...I don't know...
>>
>> I go to a bar every week for karaoke. The bar gets very loud, crowded,
>> and obviously people drink...I do not but others do.
>>
>> I am ashamed to admit this but until recently I had the bartenders or
>> a waitress help me to the restroom door because I was afraid of the
>> drunks.
>>
>> I know a bar is not a stadium but tonight I really tried to simulate
>> the experience I may have at the stadium...instead of having anyone
>> follow me to make sure I made it or having someone who works there
>> help me when I went the wrong way I jumped up, grabbed my cane and
>> tried to just head for the bathroom myself...trying to blend into the
>> crowd and interacting with the people to see what kind of reaction I
>> would get and to try to sort of see how the drunks would be like.
>>
>> The experience wasn't the best. I couldn't take two or three steps
>> without someone coming over, and grabbing my hand to try to help me.
>>
>> I tried to be cheerful and say "I'm good" but it's sort of tricky to
>> get to the bathroom in this bar and so often I was gong the wrong way.
>> If the people would've just left me alone and let me explore I
>> could've found my way...but I could barely take three steps without
>> someone trying to help.
>>
>> Also, once I got really turned around and was at the front door. I
>> didn't realize I was at the door however until someone opened it for
>> me thinking I was trying to go outside. I quickly backed away and said
>> "no I don't want to go outside."
>>
>> Another time I had gotten up and was trying to weave my way through
>> the people and a guy asked in a sort of harsh voice "where you going
>> kid?" Quickly I said "the bathroom" he sort of directed me and luckily
>> I was in the right hallway and knew where to go and so very quickly
>> walked away...
>>
>> But, I don't know how this whole finding my seat on my own thing will
>> go...I am thinking every time I take a step someone will be wanting to
>> help. Drunks like that one that said "where you going kid" kind of
>> scare me...I do look like a "kid" as I'm so tiny I look like I'm about
>> 15...
>>
>> First, how do you tell sighted people to leave you alone and let you
>> explore? I tried to say in a very cheerful voice "I'm good" but that
>> must've sounded very strange to the person when I was usually going
>> the wrong way. How do you tell them without being mean to leave you
>> alone? I don't want to push everyone away...but at the same time I
>> need room to explore if I am going to find my section on my own...
>>
>> Also I did notice that the loud noise got me turned around a couple of
>> times like when I was at the front door and about to go outside which
>> was nowhere near the bathroom.
>>
>> What do I do about any harsh/mean drunks who see me as a "kid" who
>> want to take advantage of me? The bar I was at is very small in
>> comparison to the stadium and there will be many many many more
>> people...many drunk, some not...
>>
>> How is the best way to handle the not so friendly drunks and the fact
>> that I can't take two or three steps without people rushing to help.
>>
>> Like I said...I don't want to push people away and end up getting
>> myself so lost/turned around that when I need help there is noone
>> around...but if I am going to do this I will need to explore...
>>
>> I am just saying...I don't know if this will go as smoothly as I
>> thought...it doesn't seem as if I'll really have the room to just
>> wander around and explore...
>>
>> And the types of people like that guy who said "where ya going kid"
>> kind of scare me...what do I do if I get into a sticky situation?
>>
>> I know this bar is no real simulation to a stadium but it gave me the
>> experience of navigating with my cane in a crowd of people that were
>> drinking and having to interact with people I didn't know...
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>>> Sounds like you have it pretty well planned out.  You're obviously going
>>> to
>>> have to ask for assistance of one sort or another, as you won't know
>>> which
>>> way to go to get to your section without asking anybody.  Stadiums have
>>> such
>>> wide concourses and hallways with ramps, stairs, concessions stands, big
>>> open areas, etc. that I would take any assistance offered me  Taking
>>> someone's arm would probably be a wise idea.  If you were going to have
>>> the
>>> same seat for several games each season like folks with season tickets,
>>> it
>>> might be worth it to learn the exact route to your seat, but if you are
>>> not
>>> going to sit there next time you go to a football game, there's not much
>>> use
>>> in memorizing the route.
>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Kimberly and all:
>>>>
>>>> Oh my goodness...I have tons of them...I am a huge huge WVU fan and
>>>> write about the team for a local radio station's website...believe me
>>>> I wouldn't wear anything but WVU stuff...
>>>>
>>>> Kimberly since you've been to the stadium before...as long as I'm not
>>>> wandering the parking lots and am inside the stadium...do you think
>>>> it'd be safe/okay for me to try to use my cane and find my own seat?
>>>>
>>>> Can you forsee any huge problems I may not be thinking of?
>>>>
>>>> I'll go early around 10:30...I'll have my Iphone and a whistle...I'll
>>>> get dropped off by the entrance...I'll make sure it's the right
>>>> entrance for the tickets I have which are on the 50 yard line...I'll
>>>> make sure to have two ways to get home...anything I'm not thinking of
>>>> or need to be cautious/make sure of?
>>>>
>>>> If I go in at 10:30 most of the drunks will still be tailgating and if
>>>> it's close to game time like around say 11:30/40ish and I haven't
>>>> found my seat yet I'll just take an arm...
>>>>
>>>> Sound good to everyone? Anything else I may be forgetting/need to be
>>>> cautious of/not thinking of?
>>>>
>>>> Kerri
>>>>
>>>> On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>>>>> Kerry, on a lighter note, just don't wear red and black on Saturday.
>>>>> They're Cincinnati's colors, as well as the University of Louisville's.
>>>>> If
>>>>> you have a University of West Virginia shirt, that would be a good
>>>>> choice.
>>>>> Fans like to help fellow fans.  *smile*
>>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Albert Yoo wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> get some one to help you to your seat. Are you going to ask some one
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> get
>>>>>> your food and go through the line with you? What is your email
>>>>>> address?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Al:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't that
>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>> since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is making
>>>>>>> his return...should be interesting.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
>>>>>>> sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help me or
>>>>>>> use my cane to find my seat?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different opinions
>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> can!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
>>>>>>>> <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>>>> Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose,
>>>>>>>>> enjoy
>>>>>>>>> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
>>>>>>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Kimberly and All:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Okay let me clear a few things up.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to
>>>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>>>> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either
>>>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they
>>>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>>>> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy
>>>>>>>>>> drunks
>>>>>>>>>> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I
>>>>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and
>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
>>>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do
>>>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>>>> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes
>>>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>>>> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made
>>>>>>>>>> arrangements
>>>>>>>>>> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have
>>>>>>>>>> two
>>>>>>>>>> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander
>>>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>>>> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the
>>>>>>>>>> game.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
>>>>>>>>>> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
>>>>>>>>>> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
>>>>>>>>>> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly
>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
>>>>>>>>>> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having
>>>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>>>> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me
>>>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>>>> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
>>>>>>>>>> otherwise...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks everyone again!
>>>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>>>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the
>>>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> Kerry
>>>>>>>>>>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
>>>>>>>>> thousands of
>>>>>>>>>>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> say
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.
>>>>>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>> its
>>>>>>>>> fine
>>>>>>>>>>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times
>>>>>>>>>>> use
>>>>>>>>>>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next
>>>>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> alone.
>>>>>>>>>>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such
>>>>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> go, I
>>>>>>>>>>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things
>>>>>>>>>>> together.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com
>


From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 12 15:50:54 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:50:54 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded
	MajorCollegeSportingEvents
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal><48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus><39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley><AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com><3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com><AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinZitT7jGuPhgzQuMjU=Z4SG-zEzJR2-9HRb+5j@mail.gmail.com><276AD23D-215A-4A3F-8D41-F1707A052C10@insightbb.com><AANLkTimKvoCZ8Ubg6KL8GDPcFL7BAc9UVQJ5Wf82=Vgg@mail.gmail.com><87CEF516-9CF3-42A2-92D0-3F94470CC40B@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTineP4xhV+fz-hGWDjZ+S7cNwUt6bmJZ_934WL-b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9F5659E4FD749E08FDC885B23F0F87C@Ashley>

Kerry,
Try and make your messages more concise; you said the same thing several 
times.  Going to a crowded bar is not the same as a game.  You may have been 
helped so much because you typically need help.  If I don't need help I just 
tell the person and sometimes they still follow me and I state again I got 
directions and I'm fine.  If its real important for them not to follow, 
sometimes I stop and do something like pretend to check my messages on my 
cell phone.  This tends to get them away; they don't want to wait around for 
me to finish what ever I'm doing.

For the game you are way over thinking it.  If you arrive early as has been 
suggested and have a fully charged cell phone those are steps that will 
help.  You have plenty of time to explore; its not as crowded then and the 
drunks are in the parking lot.
Again I think its fine to ask where a seat is because sighted people get 
lost and get assistance.  Ushers will be there and its their job to direct 
people.

As to the bar, I'd have a hard time navigating too.  Loud music and people 
makes me disoriented.  That environment is not conducive to exploring! 
You'll have to feel for landmarks with your cane.  Their will  not be 
auditory cues.  Sometimes you'll hear the bathroom door open and/or running 
water inside but if its a crowded bar chances are its not audible due to the 
noise!  Sometimes I get help to a bathroom; sometimes on my own in 
restaurants; I have not done it at a bar though!
I don't know whether these cues will work in a bar due to the congestion and 
every place is different but here are some landmarks and cues I use.

Again most these auditory cues probably will not work in a bar unless you're 
really near the restroom and can hear them.

I listen for doors opening.  People walking to the restroom as well.
Often restrooms are in alcoves down a small hallway or a nook.  So I feel 
for the opening.  Changes in surface also help.  Near a restroom often its 
tile or a carpet there.
If you've been there before, remember the smell.  As the restroom opens it 
will have a certain smell to it.

Finally before entering a restroom I ensure to read the sign.  I think 
you're totally blind so if its not in braille ask someone.  You don't want 
to enter the wrong restroom.


Ashley 



From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov 12 16:49:31 2010
From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 08:49:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Accessible Credit Reports
In-Reply-To: <F51EF48A01B649A6A31288D96B9254E3@SonyPC>
Message-ID: <148755.99577.qm@web30905.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

This is verry interesting to know.  When I attempted to gain access to my report, I had to have someone sighted help since acoarding to the credit organizations, no such accessible report ever ever existed.  This took place at the beginning of the year...


--- On Thu, 11/11/10, Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Mark J. Cadigan <kramc11 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Accessible Credit Reports
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Thursday, November 11, 2010, 3:46 PM
> I am forwarding this in hopes that
> some of you may find it useful. 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: Bob Hachey 
> To: bscb-announce at acb.org
> 
> Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 2:48 PM
> Subject: [bscb-announce] Accessible Credit Reports
> 
> 
> Have You checked your ACCESSIBLE Credit Reports in 2010?
> 
> As the holiday season approaches it is a great time to
> review your free credit report - available in Braille, Large
> Print or audio format, or on-line in an accessible on-line
> format. Every United States citizen is entitled to one free
> report every twelve months from each of the three companies:
> Equifax, Experian and Trans Union.  These companies
> have been providing accessible reports for two years as a
> result of ACB and CCB's Structured Negotiations advocacy
> efforts.  
> 
> You can request your report in Braille, Large Print and
> Audio formats by calling 877-322-8228.  This is a
> toll-free automated system.  You will be asked to chose
> your alternative format towards the end of the call, after
> you enter identifying information.
> 
> Please note that while credit reports (also known as credit
> disclosures) are free through the toll free number above,
> credit scores are not.  Information on how to order a
> credit scores will be provided to consumers ordering the
> initial reports.  Scores should also be provided in
> Braille, Large Print, and audio formats to those who order
> the initial disclosure in these formats.
> 
> You can receive your credit report on line in accessible
> format by visiting 
> www.annualcreditreport.com 
> 
> More information about free accessible credit reports can
> be found in the post on Lainey's web site at: 
> http://lflegal.com/2010/11/credit-access/
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 17:05:40 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:05:40 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded
	MajorCollegeSportingEvents
In-Reply-To: <B9F5659E4FD749E08FDC885B23F0F87C@Ashley>
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>
	<48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus>
	<39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley>
	<AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com>
	<3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTinZitT7jGuPhgzQuMjU=Z4SG-zEzJR2-9HRb+5j@mail.gmail.com>
	<276AD23D-215A-4A3F-8D41-F1707A052C10@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTimKvoCZ8Ubg6KL8GDPcFL7BAc9UVQJ5Wf82=Vgg@mail.gmail.com>
	<87CEF516-9CF3-42A2-92D0-3F94470CC40B@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTineP4xhV+fz-hGWDjZ+S7cNwUt6bmJZ_934WL-b@mail.gmail.com>
	<B9F5659E4FD749E08FDC885B23F0F87C@Ashley>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimARYb1=0k4wqw+9uFCeKpvDfbZ7iSuvHefk4v7@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!

First, Ashley, thanks for the bar tips...the bathroom is down a hall
so it's not that tricky to find...usually I do okay.

Okay...I talked to my mother and she gave me a little more info about
the stadium...my plan of using my cane may not work so well after
all...I'll have to see.

Okay, so there is this hallway with the bathrooms and concession
stands. You walk out of the hallway and into the stadium.

The stadium is huge and there are four sides to it...north south east and west.

In order to begin to find your seat you have to know which side of the
stadium/gate to go through north, south, east and west.

Once you figure out which side you need/are on you have to figure out
whether your section is upper or lower.

If it's upper you have to go up all these steep steps (steps shouldn't
be a problem) but Mom said she didn't think I'd be able to distinguish
the sections with my cane in order to find the right one.

Despite how big and massive this stadium is seeming to be, what I may
do since there will be so many people around is find out and write
down ahead of time which side my tickets are on, the section number,
and if it's upper or lower...then try to ask random people directions
to the proper side and so forth.

The thing is though that if my tickets are say on the south side and
I'm on the west side according to what I've been told it could be
clear on the other side of the stadium which is a long long walk.

Hmm...I'm thinking I'll definitely use my cane to find my section
tonight at the basketball game, and for the football game tomorrow get
to the stadium as early as possible, have the side, section and
nrow/seat number written down ahead of time, and just try to use my
cane and see how things go.

If I find I'm on the wrong side or the crowd is too overwhelming and
I'm just too lost and frustrated I'll just take an arm;but I want to
at least give an effort with my cane even if I don't do the entire
thing with my cane.

This stadium is so large that if your on the wrong side from where
your seat is located you could be walking pretty far to get to the
other side...then you still have to find your section when you finally
get to the right side...it could take me the whole game just to find
my seat...so I think I'll try to use my cane tomorrow some and see how
things go and if I find myself too lost or too frustrated/on the
opposite side of where I'm supposed to be I'll take an arm.

Thoughts?

Kerri

On 11/12/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Kerry,
> Try and make your messages more concise; you said the same thing several
> times.  Going to a crowded bar is not the same as a game.  You may have been
> helped so much because you typically need help.  If I don't need help I just
> tell the person and sometimes they still follow me and I state again I got
> directions and I'm fine.  If its real important for them not to follow,
> sometimes I stop and do something like pretend to check my messages on my
> cell phone.  This tends to get them away; they don't want to wait around for
> me to finish what ever I'm doing.
>
> For the game you are way over thinking it.  If you arrive early as has been
> suggested and have a fully charged cell phone those are steps that will
> help.  You have plenty of time to explore; its not as crowded then and the
> drunks are in the parking lot.
> Again I think its fine to ask where a seat is because sighted people get
> lost and get assistance.  Ushers will be there and its their job to direct
> people.
>
> As to the bar, I'd have a hard time navigating too.  Loud music and people
> makes me disoriented.  That environment is not conducive to exploring!
> You'll have to feel for landmarks with your cane.  Their will  not be
> auditory cues.  Sometimes you'll hear the bathroom door open and/or running
> water inside but if its a crowded bar chances are its not audible due to the
> noise!  Sometimes I get help to a bathroom; sometimes on my own in
> restaurants; I have not done it at a bar though!
> I don't know whether these cues will work in a bar due to the congestion and
> every place is different but here are some landmarks and cues I use.
>
> Again most these auditory cues probably will not work in a bar unless you're
> really near the restroom and can hear them.
>
> I listen for doors opening.  People walking to the restroom as well.
> Often restrooms are in alcoves down a small hallway or a nook.  So I feel
> for the opening.  Changes in surface also help.  Near a restroom often its
> tile or a carpet there.
> If you've been there before, remember the smell.  As the restroom opens it
> will have a certain smell to it.
>
> Finally before entering a restroom I ensure to read the sign.  I think
> you're totally blind so if its not in braille ask someone.  You don't want
> to enter the wrong restroom.
>
>
> Ashley
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>


From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 12 17:45:58 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:45:58 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] music science and math
Message-ID: <4CDD7D56.7020500@gmail.com>

Hi
Also did you know there is a free program called lilypond? it lets you 
hand-type music. you can then save it in the music-xml format and use a 
free program, called FreeDots to turn the music xml into a braille music 
score which can be embossed or read on a braille display.
Now guys all we need is a free open source LaTeX to nemeth grade2 
braille translator. so far duxbury is the only one I know of that will 
translate latex into nemeth. Either that or better yet how about latex 
to math-ml? I think we should also update wintriangle so it will work 
better with windows7 32 and 64bit.
Josh


From amylsabo at comcast.net  Fri Nov 12 23:37:04 2010
From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 23:37:04 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
Message-ID: <630033443.747430.1289605024761.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

hello there,

welcome to the land of nabs. i'm glad that you found this list. as for getting your materials in a accessible format i would ask the professor to email them to you or if not then email the professor for copies of them.

i hope this information is helpful to you. take care and, i will talk to you soon.


hugs,
from amy

----- Original Message -----
From: Koby Cox <kobycox at gmail.com>
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Sent: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 00:52:49 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] New member

Hello all,

My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this list.
I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked to
the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day do
to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What could
I do? any advice will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.	

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net

From hope.paulos at gmail.com  Sat Nov 13 00:00:03 2010
From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 19:00:03 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
References: <630033443.747430.1289605024761.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <C9FC93DE2382432DBBE836B8A5466D2D@Espy>

Hi there. Are you in high school or college? If you're in high school, I'd 
bring it up at the next IEP meeting. If you're in college, I'd contact the 
disability support services and again approach your teachers. This shouldn't 
be happening-- explain that in order for you to participate fully in 
classes, you need to have the paperwork in Braille. Explain that you needed 
to be treated as every sighted person in the classroom. You not having your 
paperwork in Braille is a lack f preparedness on the part of the teacher, 
and this is inexcusable. Another option you might want to consider is having 
the teacher email you the assignment ahead of time, you print it out and 
physically walk it over to the disability support services office.
Hope this helps.
Hope and Beignet
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Amy Sabo" <amylsabo at comcast.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New member


> hello there,
>
> welcome to the land of nabs. i'm glad that you found this list. as for 
> getting your materials in a accessible format i would ask the professor to 
> email them to you or if not then email the professor for copies of them.
>
> i hope this information is helpful to you. take care and, i will talk to 
> you soon.
>
>
> hugs,
> from amy
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Koby Cox <kobycox at gmail.com>
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Sent: Wed, 10 Nov 2010 00:52:49 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: [nabs-l] New member
>
> Hello all,
>
> My name is Koby and I'm totally blind. I'm glad that I'm onboard this 
> list.
> I'm not getting my materials in Braille in a timely fassion. I've talked 
> to
> the teachers about this and they don't seem to care. For example I was
> givven a paper the other day and the students were doing this exact
> assignment that same day and I was unable to do this assignment that day 
> do
> to the fact taht I didn't have that paper in a accessible format. What 
> could
> I do? any advice will be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Koby. P.S. I'm on a IEP. I didn't have this problem last year.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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From missheather at comcast.net  Sat Nov 13 00:03:08 2010
From: missheather at comcast.net (H. Field)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:03:08 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded
	MajorCollegeSportingEvents
References: <20101111050434.31358.30282@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal><48E104C13D354395B8FA1B4364ABA4A8@Rufus><39C8E4069FF1479DB9D5FD4E06ABC46E@Ashley><AANLkTikJTZACfs+X9nVjtmganUzF5F45tfHFFexkQQ6a@mail.gmail.com><3BE67EDD-DA9E-4468-88F7-0530D1A5DB0D@insightbb.com><AANLkTikrkSxYBAF+49GGpfsAi0BcOfqd=ovroRsKPko7@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTik_8SucbEDub-2A9tdELkEn7jcFbbK6EHaKsc-i@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTinZitT7jGuPhgzQuMjU=Z4SG-zEzJR2-9HRb+5j@mail.gmail.com><276AD23D-215A-4A3F-8D41-F1707A052C10@insightbb.com><AANLkTimKvoCZ8Ubg6KL8GDPcFL7BAc9UVQJ5Wf82=Vgg@mail.gmail.com><87CEF516-9CF3-42A2-92D0-3F94470CC40B@insightbb.com>
	<AANLkTineP4xhV+fz-hGWDjZ+S7cNwUt6bmJZ_934WL-b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <91AF14C9D93A453BA210848D6659C079@heathersony>

Hello Kerri,
Unfortunately, comparing these two experiences is like comparing 
apples and oranges. The people at the bar have seen you before, the 
people at the stadium have not.

This was not a test at all. You have been going to this bar for a long 
time and, the whole time, you have shown every patron in the bar that 
you need assistance to get to the rest room. For months they've 
watched you demonstrate that you cannot independently take yourself to 
the rest room. Then, suddenly, you set off alone to find it and expect 
that all the patrons who have watched you be guided to the rest room 
every night you've been there, will somehow, psychically know that you 
don't need help. What's more, they are supposed to watch you wander 
about, knowing that you always need guidance, because that's what 
you've shown them in the past, and not offer you help.

Kerri, this was not well thought out and is in no way any kind of a 
comparison to your visit to the stadium. The only way you will 
convince the patrons at the bar that you are capable of getting 
yourself to the rest room is to make a public announcement over the 
microphone that you're working on your independence skills and that 
you'd welcome encouragement but that you don't need any actual help. 
As you're a regular at this bar I'm sure everyone will be happy to 
encourage you. But, you can't teach them that you need guidance for 
months and then suddenly expect that they won't help you when you go 
wandering off alone. As for how do you get people to let you do things 
for yourself, you tell them what you're doing. Saying, "I'm good" is 
rediculous. They can see that you're obviously lost and that, in their 
mind, you're not good. Such a comment adds to their beliefs about your 
incompetence. You're saying your're good, but you are lost. For you to 
think you are good while you are obviously lost seems crazy to them, 
so they assume you don't know what you're talking about. Much like 
they would think about a child. This is quite reasonable thinking. 
They don't know about the abilities of blind people with goods skills, 
or about how structured discovery learning works. You will need to 
educate them. As you go there regularly, you need to take the time to 
explain to the people who offer help why you don't want assistance. 
Explain what you're doing and why you're doing it. This is how you 
make friends. You meet people, you talk to them, they get to know you 
and you build relationships. You talk to people Kerri.

You need to say what you're doing. Try saying. "I'm walking around to 
learn where everything is so that I can take myself where I need to go 
instead of getting help all the time." This sounds like a reasonable 
explanation to me. Why wouldn't you tell them what you were doing? 
This is not difficult Kerri. Furthermore, you need to remember that 
you have trained the regular people at the bar to believe you need 
help. Therefore, this is not a typical siguation where you go to a new 
place and walk around learning where everything is. If you tell 
sighted people that your way of looking around is to walk around and 
check out where things are by touch, smell, sound etc. they will 
understand perfectly and let you alone.

As for the man with a harsh voice, why would you possibly find this 
frightening?  He didn't try to help you without permission, or grab 
you or anything unkind.  or assume he knew what you wanted, he simply 
asked where you were going. If you plan to get out and about in the 
world you're going to need to cultivate the attitude that most people 
you'll ever meet are your friends. The poor guy probably just used his 
usual voice which happens to be a bit raspy, or maybe it sounded a bit 
odd because he was speaking loud because of the noise in the bar.

Kerri, if you want to enjoy life and the independence you are seeking 
to develop you're going to need to stop looking for things to be 
scared of. In your position I would have asked him his name and asked 
if he came to the bar often. I would tell him I was glad he had such a 
unique voice because it made him easy to remember. I'd tell him I came 
often and invite him to say "hi" when he saw me next. I'd thank him 
for his assistance. I be telling myself that now I at least knew one 
regular at the bar and be hoping he'd say hi next time. That way 
perhaps he'd tell his friends to say "hi" as well. I would not be 
breathing a sigh of relief and taking comfort in the fact that at 
least the scary  man with the harsh voice went away so quickly.

If you want people to treat you like an adult then you'll have to 
speak to them as equals, telling them what you're doing and telling 
them how they can be helpful if they want to help. People usually want 
to be friends Kerri, they're not out to get you. Start with that 
belief and your travel/discovery experiences will be much more joyful.
And please, don't compare apples with oranges and use the unpleasant 
results as something to encourage fearfulness. By all means, be smart 
and plan wisely. Think things through and ask advice. But don't spend 
time looking for things to worry about. Life has plenty of real 
problems for you to solve without you inventing them.

Have a good time at the football and let us know how things went. And, 
remember! you are among a crowd of basically nice people.

Regards,

Heather





----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kerri Kosten" <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 12, 2010 12:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded 
MajorCollegeSportingEvents


Hi All!

Okay, there may be a problem with my little plan lol...I don't know...

I go to a bar every week for karaoke. The bar gets very loud, crowded,
and obviously people drink...I do not but others do.

I am ashamed to admit this but until recently I had the bartenders or
a waitress help me to the restroom door because I was afraid of the
drunks.

I know a bar is not a stadium but tonight I really tried to simulate
the experience I may have at the stadium...instead of having anyone
follow me to make sure I made it or having someone who works there
help me when I went the wrong way I jumped up, grabbed my cane and
tried to just head for the bathroom myself...trying to blend into the
crowd and interacting with the people to see what kind of reaction I
would get and to try to sort of see how the drunks would be like.

The experience wasn't the best. I couldn't take two or three steps
without someone coming over, and grabbing my hand to try to help me.

I tried to be cheerful and say "I'm good" but it's sort of tricky to
get to the bathroom in this bar and so often I was gong the wrong way.
If the people would've just left me alone and let me explore I
could've found my way...but I could barely take three steps without
someone trying to help.

Also, once I got really turned around and was at the front door. I
didn't realize I was at the door however until someone opened it for
me thinking I was trying to go outside. I quickly backed away and said
"no I don't want to go outside."

Another time I had gotten up and was trying to weave my way through
the people and a guy asked in a sort of harsh voice "where you going
kid?" Quickly I said "the bathroom" he sort of directed me and luckily
I was in the right hallway and knew where to go and so very quickly
walked away...

But, I don't know how this whole finding my seat on my own thing will
go...I am thinking every time I take a step someone will be wanting to
help. Drunks like that one that said "where you going kid" kind of
scare me...I do look like a "kid" as I'm so tiny I look like I'm about
15...

First, how do you tell sighted people to leave you alone and let you
explore? I tried to say in a very cheerful voice "I'm good" but that
must've sounded very strange to the person when I was usually going
the wrong way. How do you tell them without being mean to leave you
alone? I don't want to push everyone away...but at the same time I
need room to explore if I am going to find my section on my own...

Also I did notice that the loud noise got me turned around a couple of
times like when I was at the front door and about to go outside which
was nowhere near the bathroom.

What do I do about any harsh/mean drunks who see me as a "kid" who
want to take advantage of me? The bar I was at is very small in
comparison to the stadium and there will be many many many more
people...many drunk, some not...

How is the best way to handle the not so friendly drunks and the fact
that I can't take two or three steps without people rushing to help.

Like I said...I don't want to push people away and end up getting
myself so lost/turned around that when I need help there is noone
around...but if I am going to do this I will need to explore...

I am just saying...I don't know if this will go as smoothly as I
thought...it doesn't seem as if I'll really have the room to just
wander around and explore...

And the types of people like that guy who said "where ya going kid"
kind of scare me...what do I do if I get into a sticky situation?

I know this bar is no real simulation to a stadium but it gave me the
experience of navigating with my cane in a crowd of people that were
drinking and having to interact with people I didn't know...

Thanks,

Kerri

On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
> Sounds like you have it pretty well planned out.  You're obviously 
> going to
> have to ask for assistance of one sort or another, as you won't know 
> which
> way to go to get to your section without asking anybody.  Stadiums 
> have such
> wide concourses and hallways with ramps, stairs, concessions stands, 
> big
> open areas, etc. that I would take any assistance offered me  Taking
> someone's arm would probably be a wise idea.  If you were going to 
> have the
> same seat for several games each season like folks with season 
> tickets, it
> might be worth it to learn the exact route to your seat, but if you 
> are not
> going to sit there next time you go to a football game, there's not 
> much use
> in memorizing the route.
> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:34 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>
>> Hi Kimberly and all:
>>
>> Oh my goodness...I have tons of them...I am a huge huge WVU fan and
>> write about the team for a local radio station's website...believe 
>> me
>> I wouldn't wear anything but WVU stuff...
>>
>> Kimberly since you've been to the stadium before...as long as I'm 
>> not
>> wandering the parking lots and am inside the stadium...do you think
>> it'd be safe/okay for me to try to use my cane and find my own 
>> seat?
>>
>> Can you forsee any huge problems I may not be thinking of?
>>
>> I'll go early around 10:30...I'll have my Iphone and a 
>> whistle...I'll
>> get dropped off by the entrance...I'll make sure it's the right
>> entrance for the tickets I have which are on the 50 yard 
>> line...I'll
>> make sure to have two ways to get home...anything I'm not thinking 
>> of
>> or need to be cautious/make sure of?
>>
>> If I go in at 10:30 most of the drunks will still be tailgating and 
>> if
>> it's close to game time like around say 11:30/40ish and I haven't
>> found my seat yet I'll just take an arm...
>>
>> Sound good to everyone? Anything else I may be forgetting/need to 
>> be
>> cautious of/not thinking of?
>>
>> Kerri
>>
>> On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>>> Kerry, on a lighter note, just don't wear red and black on 
>>> Saturday.
>>> They're Cincinnati's colors, as well as the University of 
>>> Louisville's.
>>> If
>>> you have a University of West Virginia shirt, that would be a good
>>> choice.
>>> Fans like to help fellow fans.  *smile*
>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Albert Yoo wrote:
>>>
>>>> get some one to help you to your seat. Are you going to ask some 
>>>> one to
>>>> get
>>>> your food and go through the line with you? What is your email 
>>>> address?
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Kerri Kosten 
>>>> <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Al:
>>>>>
>>>>> They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't 
>>>>> that good
>>>>> since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is 
>>>>> making
>>>>> his return...should be interesting.
>>>>>
>>>>> Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
>>>>> sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help 
>>>>> me or
>>>>> use my cane to find my seat?
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different 
>>>>> opinions as
>>>>> I
>>>>> can!
>>>>>
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>
>>>>> On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
>>>>>> <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief. 
>>>>>>> I was
>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little 
>>>>>>> old you
>>>>>>> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me 
>>>>>>> frightened
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> you.
>>>>>>> Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you 
>>>>>>> choose,
>>>>>>> enjoy
>>>>>>> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
>>>>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Kimberly and All:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Okay let me clear a few things up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I 
>>>>>>>> want to
>>>>>>>> go
>>>>>>>> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either 
>>>>>>>> before
>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking 
>>>>>>>> lots...they
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy 
>>>>>>>> crazy
>>>>>>>> drunks
>>>>>>>> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am 
>>>>>>>> independent or to
>>>>>>>> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a 
>>>>>>>> drunk...I want
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded 
>>>>>>>> events and
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl 
>>>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>>> people.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only 
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>>> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it 
>>>>>>>> makes
>>>>>>>> our
>>>>>>>> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made
>>>>>>>> arrangements
>>>>>>>> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and 
>>>>>>>> have two
>>>>>>>> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander 
>>>>>>>> around
>>>>>>>> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the 
>>>>>>>> game.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to 
>>>>>>>> just do
>>>>>>>> this entire thing without asking a single person for 
>>>>>>>> help...what I
>>>>>>>> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and 
>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat 
>>>>>>>> (similarly to
>>>>>>>> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my 
>>>>>>>> cane and
>>>>>>>> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is 
>>>>>>>> this?"
>>>>>>>> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 
>>>>>>>> 145...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having 
>>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>>> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side 
>>>>>>>> of me
>>>>>>>> who
>>>>>>>> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to 
>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>> otherwise...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks everyone again!
>>>>>>>> Kerri
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> 
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like 
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> one
>>>>>>> Kerry
>>>>>>>>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school 
>>>>>>>>> plays
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things 
>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>> thousands of
>>>>>>>>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise 
>>>>>>>>> as you
>>>>> say
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the 
>>>>>>>>> process.  So
>>>>> its
>>>>>>> fine
>>>>>>>>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few 
>>>>>>>>> times use
>>>>>>>>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and 
>>>>>>>>> next time
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>> alone.
>>>>>>>>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands 
>>>>>>>>> such as
>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even 
>>>>>>>>> when I
>>>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> go, I
>>>>>>>>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things 
>>>>>>>>> together.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ashley
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
>>>>>>>>> info
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
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From JFreeh at nfb.org  Sat Nov 13 00:38:51 2010
From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh,
	Jessica)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:38:51 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and Faculty
Message-ID: <auto-000177742503@mailfront2.g2host.com>


FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



CONTACT:

Chris Danielsen

Director of Public Relations

National Federation of the Blind

(410) 659-9314, extension 2330

(410) 262-1281 (Cell)

<mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org




Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and Faculty




National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against Penn State



Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The 
National Federation of the Blind (NFB), the 
nation’s oldest and largest organization of blind 
people, announced today that it has filed a 
complaint with the United States Department of 
Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an 
investigation of Pennsylvania State University 
(Penn State) for violating the civil rights of 
blind students and faculty.  The NFB filed the 
complaint because a variety of computer- and 
technology-based services and Web sites at Penn 
State are inaccessible to blind students and 
faculty.  Title II of the Americans with 
Disabilities Act requires public state 
universities to offer equal access to their programs and services.



The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
    * The library at Penn State hosts a Web site 
with access to the library catalog that is 
available to any registered student.  The Web 
site, however, is not fully accessible to blind 
students due to improper coding that prevents 
screen access software used by the blind from properly interpreting the site.
    * Many of Penn State’s departmental Web sites 
are not fully accessible to the blind, including, 
ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability Services.
    * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course 
management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of 
the learning and teaching experience at Penn 
State that allows students and professors to 
interact with each other online and perform 
various  course-related functions. This course 
management software is almost completely inaccessible to blind users.
    * Many teachers at Penn State use a “smart” 
podium, which allows the professor to connect 
his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and 
display images and videos loaded from the laptop 
on a screen at the front of the room.  The podium 
is operated by an inaccessible touchscreen keypad 
that controls almost all podium functions.  Thus, 
blind faculty members must rely on assistance 
from a sighted person to utilize the podium.
    * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to 
enable students to use their identification cards 
as debit cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly 
inaccessible with screen access software, and 
there is only one ATM on the entire Penn State 
campus with audio output through a headphone jack 
so that blind students can use it privately and independently.

Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National 
Federation of the Blind, said: “The number and 
scope of the accessibility problems at Penn State 
demonstrate the institution’s blatant­and 
unlawful­lack of regard for the equal education 
of its blind students and failure to accommodate 
its blind faculty members and employees.  There 
is simply no excuse for blind students and 
faculty to be denied the same access to 
information and technology as their sighted 
peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude toward 
accessibility is found not only at Penn State, 
but at many of our nation’s colleges and 
universities.  That is why we have asked the 
United States Department of Education to act 
swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind 
students and faculty members are given the same 
access and opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.”



The National Federation of the Blind is 
represented in this matter by Daniel F. 
Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and Brooke 
Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and Levy.



###





About the National Federation of the Blind

With more than 50,000 members, the National 
Federation of the Blind is the largest and most 
influential membership organization of blind 
people in the United States.  The NFB improves 
blind people’s lives through advocacy, education, 
research, technology, and programs encouraging 
independence and self-confidence.  It is the 
leading force in the blindness field today and 
the voice of the nation's blind.  In January 2004 
the NFB opened the National Federation of the 
Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and 
training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind.


From DSmith at nabslink.org  Sat Nov 13 05:03:24 2010
From: DSmith at nabslink.org (Darian Smith)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 21:03:24 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs conference call: Cane vs. Dog (the pros and cons)
 Sunday, November 21!
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Kt2EKJcJ+0ng8xJTne7s5HZp+WZhVt5vMrYcT@mail.gmail.com>

Hello fellow students,

The time has come once again for another NABS conference call! This month,
the topic is orientation and mobility, specifically canes versus dog guides.
Are you a new cane user who is interested in the benefits of traveling with
a cane? Are you a seasoned cane user who is interested in what traveling
with a dog guide entails? Are you a dog guide user interested in what other
travelers experience with their dogs or canes? We will have two student
guests speakers, one from each perspective, to share their
experiences. Come one, come all, and bring your stories and questions
to this informative event!

When: Sunday, November 21, 2010.
Time: 7:00PM EST.
Where: The NABS Conference Line: (712) 775-7100 Code: 257963#.

See all on the call!

NABS Membership Committee


From nabs.president at gmail.com  Sat Nov 13 06:57:25 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 23:57:25 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Finding Places, and Getting Assistance or Not
Message-ID: <AANLkTikSSGoACJNgTPGpcYMf_P83+62PBot0bRviSqKN@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Kerri and all,

First of all, Kerri, I just want to say I can personally relate to
many of your circumstances. I too am petite (always have been), have
been essentially totally blind for my whole life and was
sighted-guided almost exclusively through most of my childhood, and I
also have some ongoing balance and gait issues (I'm not sure if
they're due to being born blind, to over-protection and limited
independent movement in my early life, or to some as-yet-undiagnosed
balance disorder). Because of these things, I often don't appear very
confident when I travel. My orientation and mobility skills have
improved a lot since my training at the Louisiana Center for the
Blind, but I still tend to get turned around quite easily, especially
if I am distracted. So I completely understand where you are coming
from in trying to gain independence while also struggling to interact
appropriately with others who often underestimate your capabilities.

Generally if someone offers assistance and I am confident that I know
where I am going, I'll say "no thanks, I'm good" and they realize that
I am, in fact, not lost. If someone offers help and I in fact am not
so certain about where I am going, I will usually ask for verbal
confirmation that I am going in the right direction ("Is this the
right way to the restroom?) If it is, they'll say "yes" and all's
fine. If it's not the right way, then I will ask for some verbal
clarification ("Which way is it?") but explain that I want to find the
place on my own and just need verbal directions. Usually if I just
explain that I want to remember where the place is for future
reference, people understand and accept this explanation well. Even if
you solicit verbal directions from others, you're still using
structured discovery-as you approach the bathroom, you can listen and
feel to see what is nearby, where the bathroom is relative to the door
and the music, etc.

I will add two more philosophical points. First, as others have
mentioned, it's OK to get lost. It doesn't mean you have failed or
gone beyond the limits of what you are capable of doing on your own,
even though that's a message that's drilled into many of our heads by
well-meaning parents and teachers as we grow up. I'm not going to lie,
getting lost can be frustrating, embarrassing, occasionally scary, but
it's rarely dangerous. If you get turned around in an indoor place,
even a place as big as a stadium, you will eventually get back to
where you started, or at least find something familiar, or at least
find other human beings who can help you get un-lost. In fact, getting
turned around in a place you'll return to again will help you build a
mental map of the place by forcing you to explore it in more depth.

The second thing I'll say is something I think you know already but I
just want to validate your feelings: As blind people we aren't
obligated to accept any "assistance" or other interactions with
strangers that we don't want to engage in. Again, I think blind
children are often trained to just go along and accept well-meant
assistance. I know I was and I was often accused of "intimidating"
others or "pushing them away" if I declined help or asked someone not
to touch or grab me. (I often laughingly wondered how a scrawny little
90-pound teenage girl like me could be so intimidating, but...). The
thing is that, just as you have the right to decide what you do or
don't want to do with your body (sexually, etc.), you also have the
right to maintain control of the kinds of interactions you have with
others, and the boundaries of your physical personal space. That said,
I think we are still obligated to play by the rules of kindness and
common courtesy when we interact with strangers even if they're being
overly helpful. That is, we should refrain from yelling or cursing at
others or hitting them even if they are obnoxious; we should speak in
a gentle tone and use words like "please" and "thank you" in our
interactions; we should genuinely thank people for offering the
appropriate kind of assistance. However, it's OK to decline help or to
gently but firmly pull your arm out of a stranger's grip, and it's
even better if you can explain that you're trying to practice being
more independent.

The fact is that a certain fraction of people will get offended or
misinterpret your assertiveness as ingratitutde or hostility. But in
my experience there is a substantial percentage of the sighted public
who can learn to both like us and respect us, and these people are the
ones who are worth having repeated interactions with in the future.

Best of luck with the football game tomorrow, and of course, happy birthday!

Arielle


From chriswright11 at verizon.net  Sat Nov 13 17:47:07 2010
From: chriswright11 at verizon.net (Christopher Wright)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 12:47:07 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Finding Places, and Getting Assistance or Not
References: <AANLkTikSSGoACJNgTPGpcYMf_P83+62PBot0bRviSqKN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8EE918D1E66C44A0B8374CC716137825@DHP4VFK1>

My number one rule is this: When you accept assistance, stay in control.


From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 13 17:56:26 2010
From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
	Faculty
In-Reply-To: <auto-000177742503@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <964741.14047.qm@web30902.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and will drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.



--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:

> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and Faculty
> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
> 
> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
> 
> 
> 
> CONTACT:
> 
> Chris Danielsen
> 
> Director of Public Relations
> 
> National Federation of the Blind
> 
> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
> 
> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
> 
> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
> Faculty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
> Penn State
> 
> 
> 
> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nation’s oldest and
> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
> to their programs and services.
> 
> 
> 
> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>    * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
> properly interpreting the site.
>    * Many of Penn State’s departmental Web
> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
> Services.
>    * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
> students and professors to interact with each other online
> and perform various  course-related functions. This
> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
> to blind users.
>    * Many teachers at Penn State use a
> “smart” podium, which allows the professor to connect
> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
> podium.
>    * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
> and independently.
> 
> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
> the Blind, said: “The number and scope of the
> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
> institution’s blatant­and unlawful­lack of regard for
> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees. 
> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
> be denied the same access to information and technology as
> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
> many of our nation’s colleges and universities.  That
> is why we have asked the United States Department of
> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
> students and faculty members are given the same access and
> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.”
> 
> 
> 
> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
> Levy.
> 
> 
> 
> ###
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About the National Federation of the Blind
> 
> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
> NFB improves blind people’s lives through advocacy,
> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
> first research and training center in the United States for
> the blind led by the blind.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sat Nov 13 17:59:04 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 12:59:04 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded MajorCollegeSporting
	Events
Message-ID: <20101113175904.18291.93951@ip-10-122-221-4.ec2.internal>

Nope, I think you've done overthought things too much already. *Grin* 
Seriously, don't worry so much. Just take it easy and enjoy the game 
now it sounds like you've got a stragety. And really, it sounds like 
we're all divided on the issue on different ways, so you will get an 
equal of opinions on either side. At this point, just give things a try 
and enjoy yourself. Out of everyone's I've heard thus far, Heather's 
sounds like the best advice.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hi Kimberly and all:

> Oh my goodness...I have tons of them...I am a huge huge WVU fan and
> write about the team for a local radio station's website...believe me
> I wouldn't wear anything but WVU stuff...

> Kimberly since you've been to the stadium before...as long as I'm not
> wandering the parking lots and am inside the stadium...do you think
> it'd be safe/okay for me to try to use my cane and find my own seat?

> Can you forsee any huge problems I may not be thinking of?

> I'll go early around 10:30...I'll have my Iphone and a whistle...I'll
> get dropped off by the entrance...I'll make sure it's the right
> entrance for the tickets I have which are on the 50 yard line...I'll
> make sure to have two ways to get home...anything I'm not thinking of
> or need to be cautious/make sure of?

> If I go in at 10:30 most of the drunks will still be tailgating and if
> it's close to game time like around say 11:30/40ish and I haven't
> found my seat yet I'll just take an arm...

> Sound good to everyone? Anything else I may be forgetting/need to be
> cautious of/not thinking of?

> Kerri

> On 11/11/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>> Kerry, on a lighter note, just don't wear red and black on Saturday.
>> They're Cincinnati's colors, as well as the University of Louisville's.  If
>> you have a University of West Virginia shirt, that would be a good choice.
>> Fans like to help fellow fans.  *smile*
>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 8:07 PM, Albert Yoo wrote:

>>> get some one to help you to your seat. Are you going to ask some one to
>>> get
>>> your food and go through the line with you? What is your email address?

>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Kerri Kosten <kerrik2006 at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:

>>>> Hi Al:

>>>> They are playing the Cincinnati Bearcats...a team that isn't that good
>>>> since they lost Brian Kelly to Notre Dame but Butch Jones is making
>>>> his return...should be interesting.

>>>> Albert...just curious...what's your opinion...do you go to many
>>>> sporting events...should I get someone from the stadium to help me or
>>>> use my cane to find my seat?

>>>> Just for curiosity's sake...trying to get as many different opinions as I
>>>> can!

>>>> Kerri

>>>> On 11/11/10, Albert Yoo <albert.k.yoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Enjoy the game Carrie! Who are they playing this weekend?

>>>>> On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Kimberly thurman
>>>>> <kimthurman at insightbb.com>wrote:

>>>>>> Kerry, okay!  That's great.  I'm breathing a sigh of relief.  I was
>>>>>> just
>>>>>> concerned about you girl.  I guess I had a picture of little old you
>>>>>> wandering that crazy parking lot all aone and it made me frightened for
>>>>>> you.
>>>>>> Odds are you would probably have even survived that, but why?

>>>>>> I think you have it figured out, and which ever method you choose,
>>>>>> enjoy
>>>>>> yourself.  You're definitely a brave girl.
>>>>>> On Nov 11, 2010, at 3:00 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

>>>>>>> Hi Kimberly and All:

>>>>>>> Okay let me clear a few things up.

>>>>>>> Kimberly I appreciate your concern so very much.

>>>>>>> I am not going to go wandering through the parking lots; I want to go
>>>>>>> to this game for the game and do not plan to tailgate either before or
>>>>>>> after the game. So, I will be nowhere near the parking lots...they are
>>>>>>> a perfect recipe to be raped...you have a bunch of rowdy crazy drunks
>>>>>>> all in one area...I'm not gonna get lost in that mess.

>>>>>>> I dont want to go to this game alone to prove I am independent or to
>>>>>>> practice my self-defense/screaming techniques with a drunk...I want to
>>>>>>> do this alone to prove that I can in fact go to crowded events and do
>>>>>>> not need to wait around for feel-sorry-for-the-blind-girl sighted
>>>>>>> people.

>>>>>>> I have to disagree Kimberly about the couch burning...we only do that
>>>>>>> for big major wins and I do not agree with that at all...it makes our
>>>>>>> school and the state of West Virginia look very bad.

>>>>>>> I will have my cell phone and a whistle; I have also made arrangements
>>>>>>> to be dropped off and picked up at the stadium entrance and have two
>>>>>>> arrangements to get home. Like I said I do not plan to wander around
>>>>>>> the parking lot at all; I want to go to the game to enjoy the game.

>>>>>>> I know I will need assistance to my seat...I don't plan to just do
>>>>>>> this entire thing without asking a single person for help...what I
>>>>>>> haven't decided is whether I will call the stadium ahead and have
>>>>>>> someone who works at the stadium escort me to my seat (similarly to
>>>>>>> asking for assistance at airports) or whether I will use my cane and
>>>>>>> ask random people along the way "excuse me what section is this?"
>>>>>>> "Section 102" Okay...I need to keep going; I need section 145...

>>>>>>> Since this is my first game I am leaning toward just having someone
>>>>>>> who works at the stadium help me...but the adventurous side of me who
>>>>>>> loves loves loves structured discovery cane travel wants to do
>>>>>>> otherwise...

>>>>>>> Thanks everyone again!
>>>>>>> Kerri

>>>>>>> On 11/11/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Joe,
>>>>>>>> That's right.  That's why I haven't gone to huge events like the one
>>>>>> Kerry
>>>>>>>> spoke of alone.  Instead I started small by going to school plays and
>>>>>>>> concerts and out to eat.  Later I may attempt large things with
>>>>>> thousands of
>>>>>>>> people.  I think you need to build up confidence.  Otherwise as you
>>>> say
>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>> might have a rotten time and get so frustrated in the process.  So
>>>> its
>>>>>> fine
>>>>>>>> to build up to independence with no guides.  Maybe a few times use
>>>>>>>> assistance.  Then you'll be familiar with the layout and next time do
>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>> alone.
>>>>>>>> Someday I'd like to attend a concert or play with thousands such as
>>>> at
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Verizon center but I'm going to work up to that goal.  Even when I do
>>>>>> go, I
>>>>>>>> might go with a blind friend and we can figure out things together.

>>>>>>>> Ashley


>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:


>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com


>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:


>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com


>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:


>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com

>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:

>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com


>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:

>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/albert.k.yoo%40gmail.com

>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com


>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com


> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sat Nov 13 18:13:41 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 13:13:41 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Changing TTS on VoiceOver
Message-ID: <1821E19F7E294A79A4F4DAB7943485EC@Rufus>

Hello,

Does anyone know if it's possible to change the TTS voice on the iPod or
iPhone devices from Samantha to Tom or something slightly more tolerable?
Thanks in advance.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing



From william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com  Sat Nov 13 18:24:09 2010
From: william.odonnell1 at yahoo.com (William ODonnell)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 10:24:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nabs-l] Changing TTS on VoiceOver
In-Reply-To: <1821E19F7E294A79A4F4DAB7943485EC@Rufus>
Message-ID: <961370.92280.qm@web30907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Under the setings tab, there should be something under the accessibility tab under voiceover.  There is a settings file; however, if you tap to quickly, you can move it in error.
Hope this helps.

--- On Sat, 11/13/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com>
> Subject: [nabs-l] Changing TTS on VoiceOver
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Date: Saturday, November 13, 2010, 1:13 PM
> Hello,
> 
> Does anyone know if it's possible to change the TTS voice
> on the iPod or
> iPhone devices from Samantha to Tom or something slightly
> more tolerable?
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Joe
> 
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up
> their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
> all."--Sam Ewing
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
> account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
> 


      


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sat Nov 13 19:40:27 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 14:40:27 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Driver Challenge: The Interface that Touches theMind
Message-ID: <0A867FC432F54AD5AEA8DB8F751CE756@Rufus>

Subject: [Njabs-talk] Blind Driver Challenge: The Interface that Touches
theMind


 The Interface that Touches the Mind:
					Advancing Beyond Autonomous Vehicles
							   by Dennis Hong

On Thursday afternoon, July 8, 2010, Dr. Dennis Hong,
 director of the Robotics and Mechanisms Laboratory at the Virginia
 Polytechnic Institute, addressed the convention. He is leading the group 
 of Virginia Tech engineering students who are working with the NFB to 
 develop the blind-drivable car. Here is what Dr. Hong said:

	  Driving-sighted people like me, we do it every day, and we take it

 for granted. When you need to go to the grocery store, you just get in your

 car and start driving. You drive to school, pick up your dearly loved 
 children, and then take them to soccer practice. You hit the open road and
enjoy a
 road trip with your friends and family with freedom and joy. Well, in
 modern society driving is really a necessity. It takes you from point A 
 to point B. It's a means of getting you to your destination whenever and
 wherever that may be. At the same time driving is fun and exciting. Some
 people even consider it an expression of power. However, most important,
 driving is really about freedom. Driving is really about independence.
 Unfortunately, however, not everyone has the privilege of driving, mostly
 because of physical challenges, blindness being one of the reasons
 affecting people the most.
  We want to change this. We want to give the blind the ability to
 drive. So in 2007 Virginia Tech accepted a challenge proposed by the
 National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute to develop a car that
 can be driven by the blind safely and independently. It was called the
 Blind Driver Challenge. As far as I know, we are the only group in the
 nation that has accepted this call. A lot of people thought we were 
 crazy.
Some people still do, and, as a matter of fact, to be honest, half the 
 time I actually think we are crazy myself.
But the real story behind the challenge goes like this. At the time
 when NFB announced the Blind Driver Challenge, we already had a very 
 active research program in autonomous vehicles at Virginia Tech. For
example, we
 won third place at the DARPA Urban Challenge and won a 
 half-million-dollar
 award. This competition was about developing a fully autonomous vehicle
 that can maneuver a sixty-mile course in the urban environment. The 
 vehicle had to obey all the California traffic laws, merge into moving
traffic,
 navigate traffic circles, negotiate intersections, avoid a variety of 
 free-standing obstacles, and even park itself--all with no human
intervention.
 So we thought we could tackle the challenge proposed by the NFB. We had
 already successfully developed an autonomous vehicle, so we thought, "How
 hard could it be to develop a car for the blind?" Well, we couldn't have
 been more wrong. We quickly realized that what the NFB wanted was not a
 vehicle that could drive a blind person around, but rather a vehicle that
 a blind person could actually operate by making active decisions.
 Realizing this, we had to start from scratch; we had to go back to 
 the drawing board and rethink how we could pull it off. Sometimes we
doubted
 whether it was even possible, but, when we realized the importance of 
 this mission for the blind community and the huge positive impact it could 
 have on society, we understood that the potential for the technologies
we'll 
 be developing along the way would have more far-reaching impact than just
driving. So in 2008, with thirteen very talented and hard-working, smart
 undergraduate students and only $3,000 in funding, we started developing
 our first vehicle for the blind.
 Let me tell you a story. I still remember when the folks from the 
 NFB first visited my lab, the Robotics and Mechanisms Laboratory (RoMeLa)
at
Virginia Tech, and the stupid mistakes and awkward situations I created 
 due to lack of experience and understanding of blindness. At the time I did

not know anyone personally who was blind, and I do not have any blind
members
of my family, so I had all those stereotypes in my head about blind 
people and erroneous assumptions about blindness.
 Though we are good friends now, I have to confess that I felt very
uncomfortable when I first met Mark Riccobono, the executive director of
the NFB Jernigan Institute. He was the very first blind person that I had
a true conversation and interaction with. When he first visited our lab a 
few years ago, actually I was not at all prepared. I didn't know what to do.

We have so many visitors through our lab from high-profile sponsors to K-12
students, so we are always ready and prepared to greet visitors and give
tours. However, that day, when Mark came to our lab in the basement of
Randolph Hall, he was sharply dressed in a suit and tie as usual. First I
tried to grab his arm to guide him. I was giving a tour of our 
laboratory,
and I constantly said, "As you can see," then I quickly remembered and
thought to myself, "Ahho, I just said, `As you can see' to this blind 
 man," which then created this awkward pause. I know better now. Then in the
 afternoon I remembered the movie, Daredevil, with Ben Affleck, this 
 heroic blind guy. I wanted to be polite and actually brushed my teeth twice

 after lunch, remembering from the movie that blind people have a
heightened,
 almost super-hero-like ability to smell. You might laugh, but that was 
 how I thought of the blind at the time. You would be surprised how many 
people in our society still think the way I did.
Then, as I and my students constantly met with the folks at the NFB
 Jernigan Institute, visiting the NFB headquarters in Baltimore overnight,
 interacting with students from schools for the blind, and working 
 together with blind engineers, we started to learn more about all the
misunderstandings about blindness. One of the biggest among them is the
ability of the blind to perform at jobs. I have learned and personally
witnessed that, contrary to general belief, there are really very few 
jobs that blind people cannot do well. Throughout my work on this project
I've
been talking and emailing back and forth with blind people from all over
 the world and was surprised at the jobs these people have. They range 
 from office managers, farmers, IT specialists to auto mechanics. Some ride
horses as a hobby, and I even talked to a hobbyist who is a drag racer.
 Gradually I understood that with just a little technology the blind can
 really do almost anything that a sighted person can do.
 We need for the rest of society to understand this, and what better
way to deliver this message to society than for a blind person to drive a
car? At the same time, if this vehicle becomes a reality, which it will,
and is available to the general public, the impact on the blind would be
huge, opening even more doors to new jobs by providing a safe, independent
>> means of transportation.
What is this car for the blind? How does it work? We don't have a 
lot of time, and the vehicle is very complicated, so I will give you a very
quick overview of how it works. There are three parts to the system: part
1, perception; part 2, computation; and part 3, nonvisual user 
 interfaces.
 So in the first stage, perception, this vehicle has different kinds of
 sensors all around it, from laser range-finder sensors to cameras. The
 laser range-finder sensor shoots out a laser, and, if there is an object 
 in front of it, it bounces back, and a computer measures the time of
flight.
So, if you know the speed of light, which you do, then you can measure 
 the distance of objects. The laser shoots around, scans the environment,
and
 makes a map around the vehicle. The camera system looks all around the
 vehicle by use of some very sophisticated computer vision algorithms, to
 identify and classify objects so that the vehicle knows, oh, a tree is 
 over there; a rock is over here. These are the lanes. A vehicle is to the 
left, and it's going at such-and-such speed and direction.
The second step is computation. This is a vast amount of data from 
the sensors, and that sensory information is fed into the computer, and the
computer tries to generate a world model. This is essentially a map 
around the vehicle that the computer can understand. Now the challenge is
the
third stage--nonvisual user interfaces. How do we move or channel these
ast amounts of real-time information to a person driving the vehicle
without using vision? This is a challenge, so during the past three or 
four years we've been working on many, many different types of nonvisual
interfaces. I'm sure you've probably heard some about the vibrating vest,
the AirPix device, and the glove. By the way, some of my students were
 here. They left yesterday, but they brought some of the interfaces and 
 did a demonstration. Did anybody have a chance to play with those?
[applause]
We also brought the vehicle that will eventually become the next 
 generation
 Blind Driver Challenge vehicle. It is a Ford hybrid Escape, very 
 exciting.
 One thing I want to point out is a more philosophical approach: what
 really is this Blind Driver Challenge vehicle? You know, we already have 
 a fully autonomous vehicle. Is the challenge just to put a blind person in
 it? Is that the Blind Driver Challenge vehicle? No. We want people 
 actually to drive the vehicle, so we have two types of interfaces. One is
called 
 the instructional cue interface. The other is the informational cue 
interface.
Let me explain a little more, because this is a rather important concept.
The instructional user interface includes the drive grip, which is like a
glove, that has five ring motors on the knuckles and tells you how to 
 turn the steering wheel. With this device the computer makes the decision: 
turn right, turn left, stop, go, push on the brake. So this information or
instruction is transmitted to the driver through these interfaces. We 
call this the "backseat driver problem." This is not really driving. You're
driving, but you are really following orders from a computer. You can 
call that a "Blind Driver Challenge" vehicle, but it is not our vision.
We started from there. Now we are moving towards the information cue
devices. The AirPix is a good example. AirPix is a small tablet-like 
device that has holes on it and compressed air comes out and forms an image
of 
the map around the vehicle. You put your hand over it and feel, "Oh these
are
 the roads. That's a tree over there; there is a moving vehicle to my
 right." The computer provides information about the vehicle so that it is
 you, the driver, who make active decisions. That is the concept.
 We started with instruction cues and are moving toward information
 cues, and the future is great, and it's looking good. Let me give you a
 brief timeline. In 2008 we started a feasibility study. We started with
 this low-cost dune buggy that we bought on eBay for $2,000. We only had
 $3,000, so we used two-thirds of it. Then we got a bunch of donations of
 equipment from companies, and then we generated these first-generation
 interfaces, which included vibrating chairs and vibrating vests, a click-
 wheel interface, and other things.
  In 2009, last year, we had our first successful test run in early
 summer, and, as Mark Riccobono mentioned, we brought the vehicle to the
 Youth Slam event at the University of Maryland and had two hundred 
 students from all over the nation who came. Some of them had the chance to
drive 
 it, and the experience was tremendous. When I think of it, I get tears in
my
 eyes.
  This year we are developing the next-generation vehicle. The red
 buggy demonstration that we had last year was really a feasibility
 experiment; it was run in a parking lot. The lanes were defined by red
 traffic cones. It was a very controlled environment, but now the next-
 generation vehicle is going to be running on real roads. This is a real
 car, and this is going to be the real Blind Driver Challenge vehicle. I 
 am very excited about this.
	  As you have probably heard, this has been all over the news, even
 internationally. It has been on the cover of several magazines, on TV 
 news, everywhere. I am literally getting hundreds and hundreds of emails,
 letters, and phone calls from people all over the world. Most of them are
 positive: "Dr. Hong, this is great. Thanks for doing this." Some of them
 give us advice and feedback. But from time to time this is a 
 controversial
 project, and I do get letters, most of them from sighted people, saying,
 "Dr. Hong, are you out of your mind? We already have teenagers texting
 while driving, which is dangerous. What do you think you are doing 
 putting blind people on the road?" To be honest with you, it is rather a
valid
 concern, so this is good news, bad news, good news, bad news, but I get a
 lot of questions from the community saying, "When can I buy this vehicle.
 When can I drive the vehicle?" Well you will be able to drive the vehicle
 soon in a test track, in a controlled situation. When will you be able to
 buy it? That's the bad news. This vehicle will not be a real product for
 the general consumer until it's proven 100 percent safe, at least as safe
 as a regular vehicle today. The good news is that I truly believe it can 
 be done. [applause]
Now again, the bad news is that, aside from these technical
 difficulties, a hurdle which we really can tackle, there are many, many
 other issues. How is a driver's license going to be issued? How is
 insurance going to cover this? The social acceptance. A lot of issues 
 need to be addressed; nonetheless, this is a very exciting project. You
will
 actually have a chance to drive this vehicle. January 29 at the Daytona
 International Raceway, we will have the first sneak peek, public
 demonstration, and next year at the national convention we will have the
 full demonstration and it's very, very exciting.
  When I talk to my students who work on this project, I always ask
 them, how many chances in your lifetime do you have an opportunity to
 change the world? This is actually that moment, so we are the Virginia 
 Tech Blind Driver Challenge Team, and we expect to see spectacular things 
 coming in the next few years. .
							  
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From serenacucco at verizon.net  Sat Nov 13 20:31:02 2010
From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena Cucco)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:31:02 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Finding Places, and Getting Assistance or Not
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikSSGoACJNgTPGpcYMf_P83+62PBot0bRviSqKN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DB852E0EFCFB461FA5A564A62E6D801F@SerenaPC>

Hi all,

Arielle, you make some great points.  I'd like to make one of my own,
however, that could sound contradictory to NFB philosophy.  When you're
exploring in a new place, remember that sighted people can see you not
looking very confident or actual.ly going totally the wrong way.  As much as
some people may know about blindness or have a blind friend or acquaintance,
they want to help you out in a genuine way.  Sometimes, when you're
exploring in a new place, if you repetedly go the wrong way, sighted people
can see this and care that you look unsure.  Even when you explain that
you're simply exploring, you won't look to sighted people like that's what
you're doing if they happen to see you repetedly going the wrong way and
they'll really want to help you!  You don't want to unintentionally look
like a fool by repetedly going towards the kitchen of the bar, instead of
towards the outside door, for example.  Observant sighted people actually
assisted me frequently when I was in college.  Sometimes, when I'm not
feeling well, my orientation is affected.  In college, friends,
acquaintances, and even strangers who knew of me enough to realize where I
was probably going, would ask me where I was going.  When I told them where,
they kindly helped me correct my error and continue on my way.  When this
first started happening, I didn't exactly trust them, since I ordenarily
knew the necessary route.  After repeated instances of this, however, I
realized they were noticing something I simply hadn't noticed yet, that my
not feeling well was affecting my orientation.  If they hadn't seen me, I
would've gotten lost and quite confused, something I really can't afford
when I'm not feeling too well!

Serena

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Arielle Silverman
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 1:57 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: [nabs-l] Finding Places, and Getting Assistance or Not

Hi Kerri and all,

First of all, Kerri, I just want to say I can personally relate to
many of your circumstances. I too am petite (always have been), have
been essentially totally blind for my whole life and was
sighted-guided almost exclusively through most of my childhood, and I
also have some ongoing balance and gait issues (I'm not sure if
they're due to being born blind, to over-protection and limited
independent movement in my early life, or to some as-yet-undiagnosed
balance disorder). Because of these things, I often don't appear very
confident when I travel. My orientation and mobility skills have
improved a lot since my training at the Louisiana Center for the
Blind, but I still tend to get turned around quite easily, especially
if I am distracted. So I completely understand where you are coming
from in trying to gain independence while also struggling to interact
appropriately with others who often underestimate your capabilities.

Generally if someone offers assistance and I am confident that I know
where I am going, I'll say "no thanks, I'm good" and they realize that
I am, in fact, not lost. If someone offers help and I in fact am not
so certain about where I am going, I will usually ask for verbal
confirmation that I am going in the right direction ("Is this the
right way to the restroom?) If it is, they'll say "yes" and all's
fine. If it's not the right way, then I will ask for some verbal
clarification ("Which way is it?") but explain that I want to find the
place on my own and just need verbal directions. Usually if I just
explain that I want to remember where the place is for future
reference, people understand and accept this explanation well. Even if
you solicit verbal directions from others, you're still using
structured discovery-as you approach the bathroom, you can listen and
feel to see what is nearby, where the bathroom is relative to the door
and the music, etc.

I will add two more philosophical points. First, as others have
mentioned, it's OK to get lost. It doesn't mean you have failed or
gone beyond the limits of what you are capable of doing on your own,
even though that's a message that's drilled into many of our heads by
well-meaning parents and teachers as we grow up. I'm not going to lie,
getting lost can be frustrating, embarrassing, occasionally scary, but
it's rarely dangerous. If you get turned around in an indoor place,
even a place as big as a stadium, you will eventually get back to
where you started, or at least find something familiar, or at least
find other human beings who can help you get un-lost. In fact, getting
turned around in a place you'll return to again will help you build a
mental map of the place by forcing you to explore it in more depth.

The second thing I'll say is something I think you know already but I
just want to validate your feelings: As blind people we aren't
obligated to accept any "assistance" or other interactions with
strangers that we don't want to engage in. Again, I think blind
children are often trained to just go along and accept well-meant
assistance. I know I was and I was often accused of "intimidating"
others or "pushing them away" if I declined help or asked someone not
to touch or grab me. (I often laughingly wondered how a scrawny little
90-pound teenage girl like me could be so intimidating, but...). The
thing is that, just as you have the right to decide what you do or
don't want to do with your body (sexually, etc.), you also have the
right to maintain control of the kinds of interactions you have with
others, and the boundaries of your physical personal space. That said,
I think we are still obligated to play by the rules of kindness and
common courtesy when we interact with strangers even if they're being
overly helpful. That is, we should refrain from yelling or cursing at
others or hitting them even if they are obnoxious; we should speak in
a gentle tone and use words like "please" and "thank you" in our
interactions; we should genuinely thank people for offering the
appropriate kind of assistance. However, it's OK to decline help or to
gently but firmly pull your arm out of a stranger's grip, and it's
even better if you can explain that you're trying to practice being
more independent.

The fact is that a certain fraction of people will get offended or
misinterpret your assertiveness as ingratitutde or hostility. But in
my experience there is a substantial percentage of the sighted public
who can learn to both like us and respect us, and these people are the
ones who are worth having repeated interactions with in the future.

Best of luck with the football game tomorrow, and of course, happy birthday!

Arielle

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From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Sat Nov 13 21:20:28 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:20:28 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students
	and	Faculty
Message-ID: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com>

I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?  While I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of technology 
that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas, particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile graphics.  The fact is, 
whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less dramatic.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:

>What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and will 
drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the 
problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.



>--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:

>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and Faculty
>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>> 
>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> CONTACT:
>> 
>> Chris Danielsen
>> 
>> Director of Public Relations
>> 
>> National Federation of the Blind
>> 
>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>> 
>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>> 
>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>> Faculty
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>> Penn State
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>> to their programs and services.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>> properly interpreting the site.
>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>> Services.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>> to blind users.
>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>> â¬Ssmart⬝ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>> podium.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>> and independently.
>> 
>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>> institutionâ¬"s blatant­and unlawful­lack of regard for
>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees. 
>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬝
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>> Levy.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ###
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>> 
>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>> first research and training center in the United States for
>> the blind led by the blind.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>> 


>      

>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com  Sat Nov 13 22:49:41 2010
From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 16:49:41 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind
	Studentsand	Faculty
References: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello everyone,

    Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to drive 
as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it 
happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the next 
time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or 
the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you up. 
It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being 
empowered to live their lives as they choose.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand 
Faculty


I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?  While 
I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of 
technology
that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas, 
particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile graphics. 
The fact is,
whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries 
loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less 
dramatic.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:

>What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what 
>the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and 
>will
drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of 
today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not 
drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.



>--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:

>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and 
>> Faculty
>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>>
>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>
>>
>>
>> CONTACT:
>>
>> Chris Danielsen
>>
>> Director of Public Relations
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>
>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>
>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>> Penn State
>>
>>
>>
>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>> to their programs and services.
>>
>>
>>
>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>> properly interpreting the site.
>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>> Services.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>> to blind users.
>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>> â¬Ssmart⬝ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>> podium.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>> and independently.
>>
>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>> institutionâ¬"s blatant­and unlawful­lack of regard for
>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬝
>>
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>> Levy.
>>
>>
>>
>> ###
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>> first research and training center in the United States for
>> the blind led by the blind.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>


>

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From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Sat Nov 13 22:55:27 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 17:55:27 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against
	Blind	Studentsand	Faculty
In-Reply-To: <001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <45554742-908B-4A96-9768-84F275B549BD@mac.com>

Peter:
I've disagreed with you on some issues before, but I'm with you on this one.
Its not the "car" that matters, it is the simble of independence and mobility this will provide.
Think of it this way, even if the car itself fails (which I doubt), it'll spring forth a ton of technology that can be very helpful to the blind and hard of hearing.


It'll also bring a revolution in technology in general, because of the concept of transmitting amounts of data threw selected vibrations.

The possibilities that this investigation can bring are endless.

Jorge





On Nov 13, 2010, at 5:49 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:

> Hello everyone,
> 
>    Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to drive 
> as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it 
> happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the next 
> time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or 
> the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you up. 
> It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being 
> empowered to live their lives as they choose.
> 
> Peter Donahue
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand 
> Faculty
> 
> 
> I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?  While 
> I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of 
> technology
> that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas, 
> particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile graphics. 
> The fact is,
> whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries 
> loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less 
> dramatic.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Steve Jacobson
> 
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:
> 
>> What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what 
>> the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and 
>> will
> drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of 
> today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
> problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not 
> drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.
> 
> 
> 
>> --- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:
> 
>>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and 
>>> Faculty
>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>>> 
>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> CONTACT:
>>> 
>>> Chris Danielsen
>>> 
>>> Director of Public Relations
>>> 
>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>> 
>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>> 
>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>> 
>>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>> Faculty
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>>> Penn State
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>>> to their programs and services.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>>> properly interpreting the site.
>>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>>> Services.
>>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>>> to blind users.
>>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>>> â¬Ssmart⬡ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>>> podium.
>>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>>> and independently.
>>> 
>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>>> institutionâ¬"s blatant–and unlawful–lack of regard for
>>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬡
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>>> Levy.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ###
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>> 
>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>>> first research and training center in the United States for
>>> the blind led by the blind.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>> 
> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 13 23:02:34 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:02:34 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Driver Challenge: The Interface that Touches
	theMind
In-Reply-To: <0A867FC432F54AD5AEA8DB8F751CE756@Rufus>
References: <0A867FC432F54AD5AEA8DB8F751CE756@Rufus>
Message-ID: <1216835C-BE50-415B-8D35-40025AC27A0D@gmail.com>

I was there for that speach! Wow! and I did try some of the technology and I can't describe it in words.

S
On Nov 13, 2010, at 11:40 AM, Joe Orozco wrote:

> Subject: [Njabs-talk] Blind Driver Challenge: The Interface that Touches
> theMind
> 
> 
> The Interface that Touches the Mind:
> 					Advancing Beyond Autonomous Vehicles
> 							   by Dennis Hong
> 
> On Thursday afternoon, July 8, 2010, Dr. Dennis Hong,
> director of the Robotics and Mechanisms Laboratory at the Virginia
> Polytechnic Institute, addressed the convention. He is leading the group 
> of Virginia Tech engineering students who are working with the NFB to 
> develop the blind-drivable car. Here is what Dr. Hong said:
> 
> 	  Driving-sighted people like me, we do it every day, and we take it
> 
> for granted. When you need to go to the grocery store, you just get in your
> 
> car and start driving. You drive to school, pick up your dearly loved 
> children, and then take them to soccer practice. You hit the open road and
> enjoy a
> road trip with your friends and family with freedom and joy. Well, in
> modern society driving is really a necessity. It takes you from point A 
> to point B. It's a means of getting you to your destination whenever and
> wherever that may be. At the same time driving is fun and exciting. Some
> people even consider it an expression of power. However, most important,
> driving is really about freedom. Driving is really about independence.
> Unfortunately, however, not everyone has the privilege of driving, mostly
> because of physical challenges, blindness being one of the reasons
> affecting people the most.
>  We want to change this. We want to give the blind the ability to
> drive. So in 2007 Virginia Tech accepted a challenge proposed by the
> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute to develop a car that
> can be driven by the blind safely and independently. It was called the
> Blind Driver Challenge. As far as I know, we are the only group in the
> nation that has accepted this call. A lot of people thought we were 
> crazy.
> Some people still do, and, as a matter of fact, to be honest, half the 
> time I actually think we are crazy myself.
> But the real story behind the challenge goes like this. At the time
> when NFB announced the Blind Driver Challenge, we already had a very 
> active research program in autonomous vehicles at Virginia Tech. For
> example, we
> won third place at the DARPA Urban Challenge and won a 
> half-million-dollar
> award. This competition was about developing a fully autonomous vehicle
> that can maneuver a sixty-mile course in the urban environment. The 
> vehicle had to obey all the California traffic laws, merge into moving
> traffic,
> navigate traffic circles, negotiate intersections, avoid a variety of 
> free-standing obstacles, and even park itself--all with no human
> intervention.
> So we thought we could tackle the challenge proposed by the NFB. We had
> already successfully developed an autonomous vehicle, so we thought, "How
> hard could it be to develop a car for the blind?" Well, we couldn't have
> been more wrong. We quickly realized that what the NFB wanted was not a
> vehicle that could drive a blind person around, but rather a vehicle that
> a blind person could actually operate by making active decisions.
> Realizing this, we had to start from scratch; we had to go back to 
> the drawing board and rethink how we could pull it off. Sometimes we
> doubted
> whether it was even possible, but, when we realized the importance of 
> this mission for the blind community and the huge positive impact it could 
> have on society, we understood that the potential for the technologies
> we'll 
> be developing along the way would have more far-reaching impact than just
> driving. So in 2008, with thirteen very talented and hard-working, smart
> undergraduate students and only $3,000 in funding, we started developing
> our first vehicle for the blind.
> Let me tell you a story. I still remember when the folks from the 
> NFB first visited my lab, the Robotics and Mechanisms Laboratory (RoMeLa)
> at
> Virginia Tech, and the stupid mistakes and awkward situations I created 
> due to lack of experience and understanding of blindness. At the time I did
> 
> not know anyone personally who was blind, and I do not have any blind
> members
> of my family, so I had all those stereotypes in my head about blind 
> people and erroneous assumptions about blindness.
> Though we are good friends now, I have to confess that I felt very
> uncomfortable when I first met Mark Riccobono, the executive director of
> the NFB Jernigan Institute. He was the very first blind person that I had
> a true conversation and interaction with. When he first visited our lab a 
> few years ago, actually I was not at all prepared. I didn't know what to do.
> 
> We have so many visitors through our lab from high-profile sponsors to K-12
> students, so we are always ready and prepared to greet visitors and give
> tours. However, that day, when Mark came to our lab in the basement of
> Randolph Hall, he was sharply dressed in a suit and tie as usual. First I
> tried to grab his arm to guide him. I was giving a tour of our 
> laboratory,
> and I constantly said, "As you can see," then I quickly remembered and
> thought to myself, "Ahho, I just said, `As you can see' to this blind 
> man," which then created this awkward pause. I know better now. Then in the
> afternoon I remembered the movie, Daredevil, with Ben Affleck, this 
> heroic blind guy. I wanted to be polite and actually brushed my teeth twice
> 
> after lunch, remembering from the movie that blind people have a
> heightened,
> almost super-hero-like ability to smell. You might laugh, but that was 
> how I thought of the blind at the time. You would be surprised how many 
> people in our society still think the way I did.
> Then, as I and my students constantly met with the folks at the NFB
> Jernigan Institute, visiting the NFB headquarters in Baltimore overnight,
> interacting with students from schools for the blind, and working 
> together with blind engineers, we started to learn more about all the
> misunderstandings about blindness. One of the biggest among them is the
> ability of the blind to perform at jobs. I have learned and personally
> witnessed that, contrary to general belief, there are really very few 
> jobs that blind people cannot do well. Throughout my work on this project
> I've
> been talking and emailing back and forth with blind people from all over
> the world and was surprised at the jobs these people have. They range 
> from office managers, farmers, IT specialists to auto mechanics. Some ride
> horses as a hobby, and I even talked to a hobbyist who is a drag racer.
> Gradually I understood that with just a little technology the blind can
> really do almost anything that a sighted person can do.
> We need for the rest of society to understand this, and what better
> way to deliver this message to society than for a blind person to drive a
> car? At the same time, if this vehicle becomes a reality, which it will,
> and is available to the general public, the impact on the blind would be
> huge, opening even more doors to new jobs by providing a safe, independent
>>> means of transportation.
> What is this car for the blind? How does it work? We don't have a 
> lot of time, and the vehicle is very complicated, so I will give you a very
> quick overview of how it works. There are three parts to the system: part
> 1, perception; part 2, computation; and part 3, nonvisual user 
> interfaces.
> So in the first stage, perception, this vehicle has different kinds of
> sensors all around it, from laser range-finder sensors to cameras. The
> laser range-finder sensor shoots out a laser, and, if there is an object 
> in front of it, it bounces back, and a computer measures the time of
> flight.
> So, if you know the speed of light, which you do, then you can measure 
> the distance of objects. The laser shoots around, scans the environment,
> and
> makes a map around the vehicle. The camera system looks all around the
> vehicle by use of some very sophisticated computer vision algorithms, to
> identify and classify objects so that the vehicle knows, oh, a tree is 
> over there; a rock is over here. These are the lanes. A vehicle is to the 
> left, and it's going at such-and-such speed and direction.
> The second step is computation. This is a vast amount of data from 
> the sensors, and that sensory information is fed into the computer, and the
> computer tries to generate a world model. This is essentially a map 
> around the vehicle that the computer can understand. Now the challenge is
> the
> third stage--nonvisual user interfaces. How do we move or channel these
> ast amounts of real-time information to a person driving the vehicle
> without using vision? This is a challenge, so during the past three or 
> four years we've been working on many, many different types of nonvisual
> interfaces. I'm sure you've probably heard some about the vibrating vest,
> the AirPix device, and the glove. By the way, some of my students were
> here. They left yesterday, but they brought some of the interfaces and 
> did a demonstration. Did anybody have a chance to play with those?
> [applause]
> We also brought the vehicle that will eventually become the next 
> generation
> Blind Driver Challenge vehicle. It is a Ford hybrid Escape, very 
> exciting.
> One thing I want to point out is a more philosophical approach: what
> really is this Blind Driver Challenge vehicle? You know, we already have 
> a fully autonomous vehicle. Is the challenge just to put a blind person in
> it? Is that the Blind Driver Challenge vehicle? No. We want people 
> actually to drive the vehicle, so we have two types of interfaces. One is
> called 
> the instructional cue interface. The other is the informational cue 
> interface.
> Let me explain a little more, because this is a rather important concept.
> The instructional user interface includes the drive grip, which is like a
> glove, that has five ring motors on the knuckles and tells you how to 
> turn the steering wheel. With this device the computer makes the decision: 
> turn right, turn left, stop, go, push on the brake. So this information or
> instruction is transmitted to the driver through these interfaces. We 
> call this the "backseat driver problem." This is not really driving. You're
> driving, but you are really following orders from a computer. You can 
> call that a "Blind Driver Challenge" vehicle, but it is not our vision.
> We started from there. Now we are moving towards the information cue
> devices. The AirPix is a good example. AirPix is a small tablet-like 
> device that has holes on it and compressed air comes out and forms an image
> of 
> the map around the vehicle. You put your hand over it and feel, "Oh these
> are
> the roads. That's a tree over there; there is a moving vehicle to my
> right." The computer provides information about the vehicle so that it is
> you, the driver, who make active decisions. That is the concept.
> We started with instruction cues and are moving toward information
> cues, and the future is great, and it's looking good. Let me give you a
> brief timeline. In 2008 we started a feasibility study. We started with
> this low-cost dune buggy that we bought on eBay for $2,000. We only had
> $3,000, so we used two-thirds of it. Then we got a bunch of donations of
> equipment from companies, and then we generated these first-generation
> interfaces, which included vibrating chairs and vibrating vests, a click-
> wheel interface, and other things.
>  In 2009, last year, we had our first successful test run in early
> summer, and, as Mark Riccobono mentioned, we brought the vehicle to the
> Youth Slam event at the University of Maryland and had two hundred 
> students from all over the nation who came. Some of them had the chance to
> drive 
> it, and the experience was tremendous. When I think of it, I get tears in
> my
> eyes.
>  This year we are developing the next-generation vehicle. The red
> buggy demonstration that we had last year was really a feasibility
> experiment; it was run in a parking lot. The lanes were defined by red
> traffic cones. It was a very controlled environment, but now the next-
> generation vehicle is going to be running on real roads. This is a real
> car, and this is going to be the real Blind Driver Challenge vehicle. I 
> am very excited about this.
> 	  As you have probably heard, this has been all over the news, even
> internationally. It has been on the cover of several magazines, on TV 
> news, everywhere. I am literally getting hundreds and hundreds of emails,
> letters, and phone calls from people all over the world. Most of them are
> positive: "Dr. Hong, this is great. Thanks for doing this." Some of them
> give us advice and feedback. But from time to time this is a 
> controversial
> project, and I do get letters, most of them from sighted people, saying,
> "Dr. Hong, are you out of your mind? We already have teenagers texting
> while driving, which is dangerous. What do you think you are doing 
> putting blind people on the road?" To be honest with you, it is rather a
> valid
> concern, so this is good news, bad news, good news, bad news, but I get a
> lot of questions from the community saying, "When can I buy this vehicle.
> When can I drive the vehicle?" Well you will be able to drive the vehicle
> soon in a test track, in a controlled situation. When will you be able to
> buy it? That's the bad news. This vehicle will not be a real product for
> the general consumer until it's proven 100 percent safe, at least as safe
> as a regular vehicle today. The good news is that I truly believe it can 
> be done. [applause]
> Now again, the bad news is that, aside from these technical
> difficulties, a hurdle which we really can tackle, there are many, many
> other issues. How is a driver's license going to be issued? How is
> insurance going to cover this? The social acceptance. A lot of issues 
> need to be addressed; nonetheless, this is a very exciting project. You
> will
> actually have a chance to drive this vehicle. January 29 at the Daytona
> International Raceway, we will have the first sneak peek, public
> demonstration, and next year at the national convention we will have the
> full demonstration and it's very, very exciting.
>  When I talk to my students who work on this project, I always ask
> them, how many chances in your lifetime do you have an opportunity to
> change the world? This is actually that moment, so we are the Virginia 
> Tech Blind Driver Challenge Team, and we expect to see spectacular things 
> coming in the next few years. .
> 							  
> _______________________________________________
> njabs-talk mailing list
> njabs-talk at nfbnet.org
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Sat Nov 13 23:31:03 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 16:31:03 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Changing TTS on VoiceOver
In-Reply-To: <1821E19F7E294A79A4F4DAB7943485EC@Rufus>
References: <1821E19F7E294A79A4F4DAB7943485EC@Rufus>
Message-ID: <E59ADAF316BD47C6AC5E8EDCDDBBC768@MarcPC>

If you go into settings, general, accessibility, voiceover, and language 
roter, you can set it up so that you can use the roter to switch between 
several languages, including Australian and British English, which both use 
different voices.  Besides switching to one of these other languages, I know 
of no other way to get a different voice for these products.

Best,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 11:13 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] Changing TTS on VoiceOver


> Hello,
>
> Does anyone know if it's possible to change the TTS voice on the iPod or
> iPhone devices from Samantha to Tom or something slightly more tolerable?
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com 



From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Sat Nov 13 23:44:59 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 15:44:59 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against
	BlindStudentsand	Faculty
References: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <014801cb838c$c94f0410$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Peter,
I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think it 
would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than to 
develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of 
course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand 
Faculty


Hello everyone,

    Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to drive
as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the next
time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or
the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you up.
It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
empowered to live their lives as they choose.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
Faculty


I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?  While
I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
technology
that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile graphics.
The fact is,
whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries
loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
dramatic.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:

>What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what
>the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>will
drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.



>--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:

>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>> Faculty
>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>>
>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>
>>
>>
>> CONTACT:
>>
>> Chris Danielsen
>>
>> Director of Public Relations
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>
>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>
>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>> Penn State
>>
>>
>>
>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>> to their programs and services.
>>
>>
>>
>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>> properly interpreting the site.
>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>> Services.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>> to blind users.
>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>> â¬Ssmart⬝ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>> podium.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>> and independently.
>>
>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>> institutionâ¬"s blatant­and unlawful­lack of regard for
>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬝
>>
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>> Levy.
>>
>>
>>
>> ###
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>> first research and training center in the United States for
>> the blind led by the blind.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>


>

>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>nabs-l:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com







_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net 



From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Sat Nov 13 23:48:38 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 18:48:38 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against
	BlindStudentsand	Faculty
Message-ID: <20101113234838.13490.75139@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>

In the short-run, maybe. But a blind drivable car would solve more 
problems in the long-run. By making blind folks see, we're not dealing 
with the social problems of blindness being a sort of second-class 
citizenship. With the car, we're forcing people to think and talk about 
the issues we've been tackling for years. Cheers.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hello Peter,
> I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think it
> would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than to
> develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of
> course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
> Dennis

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand
> Faculty


> Hello everyone,

>     Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to drive
> as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
> happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the next
> time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or
> the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you up.
> It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
> empowered to live their lives as they choose.

> Peter Donahue


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
> Faculty


> I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?  While
> I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
> technology
> that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
> particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile graphics.
> The fact is,
> whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries
> loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
> dramatic.

> Best regards,

> Steve Jacobson

> On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:

>> What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what
>> the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>> will
> drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
> today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
> problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
> drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.



>> --- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:

>>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>> Faculty
>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM

>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



>>> CONTACT:

>>> Chris Danielsen

>>> Director of Public Relations

>>> National Federation of the Blind

>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330

>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)

>>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org




>>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>> Faculty




>>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>>> Penn State



>>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>>> to their programs and services.



>>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>>> properly interpreting the site.
>>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>>> Services.
>>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>>> to blind users.
>>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>>> â¬Ssmart⬝ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>>> podium.
>>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>>> and independently.

>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>>> institutionâ¬"s blatant­and unlawful­lack of regard for
>>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬝



>>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>>> Levy.



>>> ###





>>> About the National Federation of the Blind

>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>>> first research and training center in the United States for
>>> the blind led by the blind.

>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com





>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com







> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com


> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net


> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

-- 
Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 00:58:59 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 19:58:59 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Changing TTS on VoiceOver
In-Reply-To: <E59ADAF316BD47C6AC5E8EDCDDBBC768@MarcPC>
References: <1821E19F7E294A79A4F4DAB7943485EC@Rufus>
	<E59ADAF316BD47C6AC5E8EDCDDBBC768@MarcPC>
Message-ID: <DE4B93D9-61C2-454B-9F0A-78A16A3276B7@gmail.com>

I honestly don't know why people are so picky when it comes to voices. I personally don't see anything wrong with Samantha, but maybe you can just try to use the british english or australian english ones....
On Nov 13, 2010, at 6:31 PM, Marc Workman wrote:

> If you go into settings, general, accessibility, voiceover, and language roter, you can set it up so that you can use the roter to switch between several languages, including Australian and British English, which both use different voices.  Besides switching to one of these other languages, I know of no other way to get a different voice for these products.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Marc
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 11:13 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Changing TTS on VoiceOver
> 
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Does anyone know if it's possible to change the TTS voice on the iPod or
>> iPhone devices from Samantha to Tom or something slightly more tolerable?
>> Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Joe
>> 
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Sun Nov 14 01:02:53 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 20:02:53 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Changing TTS on VoiceOver
In-Reply-To: <DE4B93D9-61C2-454B-9F0A-78A16A3276B7@gmail.com>
References: <1821E19F7E294A79A4F4DAB7943485EC@Rufus>
	<E59ADAF316BD47C6AC5E8EDCDDBBC768@MarcPC>
	<DE4B93D9-61C2-454B-9F0A-78A16A3276B7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <69F67C98-A190-4954-B1A8-0D931BD1F645@mac.com>

IC:
I agree with you there.
However, I wasn't aware you could change voices on the iPhone.
I'm going to test the other voices just for testing purposes, see how they are, because Apple seems to do a good job with it usually.



Thanks,



Jorge Paez

---

President and CEO:
Paez Production Networks.


Confidentiality Notice:
This message may contain sensitive confidential or classified business data.

If you are not the intended reader, please destroy this message and all its material upon receipt.





On Nov 13, 2010, at 7:58 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote:

> I honestly don't know why people are so picky when it comes to voices. I personally don't see anything wrong with Samantha, but maybe you can just try to use the british english or australian english ones....
> On Nov 13, 2010, at 6:31 PM, Marc Workman wrote:
> 
>> If you go into settings, general, accessibility, voiceover, and language roter, you can set it up so that you can use the roter to switch between several languages, including Australian and British English, which both use different voices.  Besides switching to one of these other languages, I know of no other way to get a different voice for these products.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Marc
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 11:13 AM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Changing TTS on VoiceOver
>> 
>> 
>>> Hello,
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know if it's possible to change the TTS voice on the iPod or
>>> iPhone devices from Samantha to Tom or something slightly more tolerable?
>>> Thanks in advance.
>>> 
>>> Joe
>>> 
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From nabs.president at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 01:36:27 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 18:36:27 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] NABS November Bulletin!
Message-ID: <AANLkTikj0_HrmgYUBv+=pcho6Os+yDwjsWsfPW_oY84N@mail.gmail.com>

Please find the bulletin below and the minutes from our last NABS
board meeting attached.

national Association of Blind Students
>From the Desk of the President
November 13, 2010
In This Bulletin:
1.	Washington Seminar 2011!
2.	NFB 2011 Scholarship Program Now Open!
3.	Sign Up for 2011 NFB Youth Slam!
4.	State Division Announcements
Washington Seminar 2011!
	The National Federation of the Blind will be gathering once again
this winter in Washington, D.C. to meet with our national legislators
and discuss our legislative priorities with them. As usual, just prior
to our legislative visits, the National Association of Blind Students
will be holding its annual winter meeting. This year, because of the
Blind Driver Challenge events immediately preceding Washington
Seminar, our NABS student meeting will be held on Monday, January 31,
2011. The Great Gathering-In meeting, where the entire NFB delegation
assembles to discuss the upcoming legislative work, will happen on
Monday just after the conclusion of the NABS meeting, and legislative
appointments will be held Tuesday, February 1, through Thursday,
February 3.

We encourage all of you to join us for the NABS meeting, the
legislative appointments, or both. To find out who else is going from
your state or to inquire about funding to cover the cost of your trip,
please contact your NFB state affiliate president.

More details about the NABS student seminar will be available soon. If
you have suggestions for specific topics you’d like to have discussed
during the seminar, please send your suggestions to me at
Nabs.president at gmail.com
.

2. NFB 2011 Scholarship Program Now Open!
Each year the National Federation of the Blind awards thirty
scholarships to legally blind college and graduate students across the
country.  The scholarship includes a cash award ranging from $3000 to
$12000, plus a free trip to the NFB national convention and often a
piece of assistive technology such as a KNFB Reader Mobile.  The
scholarship application for 2010 is now on the Web at
www.nfb.org/scholarships
Applications are due by March 31, 2011.
Already won a national NFB scholarship? You can apply again and
potentially win a second scholarship, also known as a TenBroek
fellowship.
In addition, many NFB affiliates offer scholarships to blind students.
 You needn't be an active member of the NFB to win.  Contact your NFB
state president for details.  You can find a list of state affiliates
and their contact information at
http://www.nfb.org/nfb/State_and_Local_Organizations.asp?SnID=54394983
Best of luck!

3. Sign Up for NFB 2011 Youth Slam!
>From Mary Jo Hartle, director of education, National Federation of the
Blind Jernigan Institute:
We are pleased to announce the third biennial NFB Youth Slam.  Whether
or not science or technology is “your thing,” there’s sure to be
something for everyone.  Learn the science behind building apps for
your iPod, use cutting-edge equipment and technology to determine
chemical reactions in chemistry labs, build robots, or learn how to
use nonvisual techniques to perform a real dissection.  We guarantee
this summer program will be like no other you've ever been to before!



One hundred and fifty blind and low vision students from all across
the country will be selected to attend this five-day adventure, to be
held in <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns =
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" />Baltimore, Maryland,
that will engage, inspire, and encourage the next generation of blind
youth to consider careers falsely believed to be impossible for the
blind.



While staying on a college campus, students will be mentored by blind
role models during fun and challenging activities designed to build
confidence and increase science literacy.  Participants will also have
the opportunity to attend workshops on topics such as leadership,
career preparation, and blindness.  In addition, students and mentors
will take part in a variety of social events throughout the week.
Come to the NFB Youth Slam and meet other blind and low vision
students from all over the United States!



Interested students who will be age fourteen at the time of the
program, and are starting high school (ninth grade) in the fall of
2011 or are currently in high school (including those graduating in
the spring of 2011) should complete an application online. Students
need not have a strong interest in science, technology, engineering,
or math (STEM) in order to participate, enjoy, and benefit from this
extraordinary experience.



If you are interested in attending the NFB Youth Slam, either as a
student participant, or as an adult volunteer, visit
www.blindscience.org to complete an online application.  Applications
are due by March 1, 2011.



If you have any questions about the NFB Youth Slam, please visit the
Web site or contact Mary Jo Hartle, Director of Education, NFB
Jernigan Institute,

(410) 659-9314, extension 2407, or e-mail YouthSlam at nfb.org.



Join us as we continue to make history at what promises to be the best
NFB Youth slam yet!



Mary Jo T. Hartle

State Division Announcements:
>From Michigan:
Last weekend the Michigan Association of Blind Students held a seminar
where elections took place. Following are the results of the election:

Elizabeth Mohnke, President
Jordyn Castor, Vice President
Matt McCubbin, Secretary
J.J. Meddaugh, treasurer
Ryan Shimshock, board
Donna Posont, Board
Kim Mohnke, Board
Britney Lake, Board

After the seminar, several members of the student division
participated in a limo scavenger hunt sponsored by our youth outreach
program. Clues on the scavenger hunt included a stop to the house of
our state affiliate President where we were instructed to decorate his
cow statue that sits in his front yard. I believe everyone who
participated in this event had a great time.

Elizabeth Mohnke
President, Michigan Association of Blind Students

>From Colorado:
1. Cabs teamed up with the boulder valley chapter put on a halloween carneval.
Cabs had a jammed packed seminar.  We discuss sports and rec, science
performing arts, and college readiness.
Elected
Melissa Green president
First Vice-President maryanne migliorelli
second-vice Esha Mehta
Secretary
Nehemiah Hall
Treasurer
Marty Rahn
Bord members:
maurice Mines
Beth Allred
Arielle Silverman
Finally, Cabs is Colaborating with Brent batron and the colorado
Center for the blind in order to expand the mentoring program.  Some
thought that the program wouldn't last, or that we would give up on
it, wrong.    So now many people want to help us succeed.


Blessings!
Melissa Green


On 11/12/10, Darian Smith <DSmith at nabslink.org> wrote:
> Hello fellow students,
>
> The time has come once again for another NABS conference call! This month,
> the topic is orientation and mobility, specifically canes versus dog guides.
> Are you a new cane user who is interested in the benefits of traveling with
> a cane? Are you a seasoned cane user who is interested in what traveling
> with a dog guide entails? Are you a dog guide user interested in what other
> travelers experience with their dogs or canes? We will have two student
> guests speakers, one from each perspective, to share their
> experiences. Come one, come all, and bring your stories and questions
> to this informative event!
>
> When: Sunday, November 21, 2010.
> Time: 7:00PM EST.
> Where: The NABS Conference Line: (712) 775-7100 Code: 257963#.
>
> See all on the call!
>
> NABS Membership Committee
>
> _______________________________________________
> Fabs mailing list
> Fabs at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/fabs_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Fabs:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/fabs_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org
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From nabs.president at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 06:08:33 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 23:08:33 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Penn State Blind Students
Message-ID: <AANLkTinGgHq0W9Pe7qLxvxo6DCKEC+U8vwTBFR5egB9w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Mark Perry, a reporter from the Chronicle of Higher Education, is
looking for blind students attending Penn State University who would
like to provide comments about the recent complaint the NFB has filed
against Penn State. If you attend Penn State or know someone who does
who would like to provide information to the Chronicle, please contact
Mark by phone at
202-466-1724
Please forward this along to anyone you know who may be able to assist. Thanks!
-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From darrell.shandrow at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 06:31:57 2010
From: darrell.shandrow at gmail.com (Darrell Shandrow)
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 23:31:57 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Penn State Blind Students
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinGgHq0W9Pe7qLxvxo6DCKEC+U8vwTBFR5egB9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinGgHq0W9Pe7qLxvxo6DCKEC+U8vwTBFR5egB9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4CDF825D.50601@gmail.com>

Hello All,

I would ask all of you who fit the description below to please contact 
Marc right away to participate in this story.

He is going to be visiting Arizona to see what it's like for me as a 
blind person in college from an accessibility viewpoint.

He really seems interested in putting together an accurate, 
well-balanced enterprise story on accessibility and blind people.

Let's not just tell him all about what's wrong. Let's also tell him 
about what does work for us, about the technology we use to access 
information and give ideas of similar systems that are known to be 
accessible or ideas on how we feel they could be made so in ways that 
are relatively easy and/or inexpensive.

Regards,

Darrell

On 11/13/2010 11:08 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Mark Perry, a reporter from the Chronicle of Higher Education, is
> looking for blind students attending Penn State University who would
> like to provide comments about the recent complaint the NFB has filed
> against Penn State. If you attend Penn State or know someone who does
> who would like to provide information to the Chronicle, please contact
> Mark by phone at
> 202-466-1724
> Please forward this along to anyone you know who may be able to assist. Thanks!


From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com  Sun Nov 14 14:55:50 2010
From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 08:55:50 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates
	AgainstBlindStudentsand	Faculty
References: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com><001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<014801cb838c$c94f0410$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <004e01cb840c$07d05980$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Good morning everyone,

    Get your rear end to the Rolex 24 in Daytona Beach in January and we'll 
discuss it after you've been there and seen the prototype demonstrated. 
Learn more at:
http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org

    It's further along than you think. See you there.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates AgainstBlindStudentsand 
Faculty


Hello Peter,
I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think it
would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than to
develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of
course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand
Faculty


Hello everyone,

    Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to drive
as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the next
time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or
the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you up.
It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
empowered to live their lives as they choose.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
Faculty


I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?  While
I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
technology
that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile graphics.
The fact is,
whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries
loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
dramatic.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:

>What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what
>the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>will
drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.



>--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:

>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>> Faculty
>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>>
>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>
>>
>>
>> CONTACT:
>>
>> Chris Danielsen
>>
>> Director of Public Relations
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>
>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>
>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>> Penn State
>>
>>
>>
>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>> to their programs and services.
>>
>>
>>
>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>> properly interpreting the site.
>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>> Services.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>> to blind users.
>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>> â¬Ssmart⬝ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>> podium.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>> and independently.
>>
>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>> institutionâ¬"s blatant­and unlawful­lack of regard for
>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬝
>>
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>> Levy.
>>
>>
>>
>> ###
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>> first research and training center in the United States for
>> the blind led by the blind.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>


>

>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>nabs-l:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com







_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
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_______________________________________________
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nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
nabs-l:
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_______________________________________________
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To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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From nfbnj at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 14 15:14:38 2010
From: nfbnj at yahoo.com (Joe Ruffalo)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 09:14:38 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] NFBNJ: Thru our Eyes, important items of interest!
Message-ID: <auto-000177869329@mailfront2.g2host.com>


Greetings to all!
Please forward the following information to others
Spread the word!.

On Wednesday, November 17 at 8:00 pm, eastern, national board member 
of the NFB, president of the state affiliate in New Jersey and Thru 
Our Eyes host, Joe Ruffalo will interview two members of the NFB 
highlighting the how and why of owning their own business.
Cheryl Echevarria from New York, owner of Echevarria Travel and Jean 
Brown from Indiana, owner of the Visions Salon and Day Spa will 
discuss the procedures and opportunities of owning their own business.
Information is provided in this message on the procedures to watch 
and listen live on Wednesday, November 17 at 8:00 pm eastern.
Please call in with your comments and questions at the following number:
1 888 572 0141

  Please forward to assist us with getting  the word out that the NFB 
of NJ 34th Annual state Convention videos are now available online. 
It is the only
way to watch and listen. Links are available on thruoureyes main 
page, podcast page at
<http://www.thruoureyes.org>www.thruoureyes.org
and mobile page (m.thruoureyes.org)
The convention was powerful with over 325 in attendance.
Lenny Azzarone's contact information is below.  Please consider show 
ideas and consider a show of your own.  Contact me at 973 743 0075 to discuss.
Remember: When we all do, it becomes doable!
Best,
Joe Ruffalo, President
  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
WTOE Radio
<http://www.wtoeradio.com>www.wtoeradio.com
www.thruoureyes.org -
1-888-572-0141 ext #3
Reach me via my Cell, work or Skype: 201-546-5705
Or use the Skype button above to call me. (Vdoman951)


From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com  Sun Nov 14 18:15:51 2010
From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 12:15:51 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates
	AgainstBlindStudentsand	Faculty
References: <20101113234838.13490.75139@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
Message-ID: <002b01cb8427$f8f2e510$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello Jedi and everyone,

    Some of us who dared to believe that a car drivable by the blind as far 
back as the 1960s was a possibility were subject to horrendous treatment by 
some agencies for the blind for thinking out-of-the-box. At one 
God-for-saken hell hole in Massachusetts that fortunately no longer operates 
voicing such beliefs could get you confined to your room for five hours at a 
time without supper. Hence when someone voices a belief concerning an 
initiative they have not taken the time to research thoroughly such as the 
blind driver challenge they're walking on the fighting side of me!

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 5:48 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates AgainstBlindStudentsand 
Faculty


In the short-run, maybe. But a blind drivable car would solve more
problems in the long-run. By making blind folks see, we're not dealing
with the social problems of blindness being a sort of second-class
citizenship. With the car, we're forcing people to think and talk about
the issues we've been tackling for years. Cheers.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hello Peter,
> I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think it
> would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than to
> develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of
> course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
> Dennis

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand
> Faculty


> Hello everyone,

>     Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to 
> drive
> as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
> happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the 
> next
> time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or
> the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you 
> up.
> It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
> empowered to live their lives as they choose.

> Peter Donahue


> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
> Faculty


> I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this? 
> While
> I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
> technology
> that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
> particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile 
> graphics.
> The fact is,
> whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries
> loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
> dramatic.

> Best regards,

> Steve Jacobson

> On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:

>> What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is 
>> what
>> the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>> will
> drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
> today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
> problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
> drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.



>> --- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:

>>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>> Faculty
>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM

>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE



>>> CONTACT:

>>> Chris Danielsen

>>> Director of Public Relations

>>> National Federation of the Blind

>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330

>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)

>>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org




>>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>> Faculty




>>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>>> Penn State



>>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>>> to their programs and services.



>>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>>> properly interpreting the site.
>>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>>> Services.
>>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>>> to blind users.
>>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>>> â¬Ssmart⬝ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>>> podium.
>>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>>> and independently.

>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>>> institutionâ¬"s blatant­and unlawful­lack of regard for
>>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬝



>>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>>> Levy.



>>> ###





>>> About the National Federation of the Blind

>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>>> first research and training center in the United States for
>>> the blind led by the blind.

>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com





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From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 18:26:47 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 11:26:47 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates AgainstBlindStudentsand
	Faculty
In-Reply-To: <002b01cb8427$f8f2e510$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <20101113234838.13490.75139@domU-12-31-38-00-34-25.compute-1.internal>
	<002b01cb8427$f8f2e510$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimu0+ip-9ekaDq+9PWHB+N4LCybx5iwroBKDHSF@mail.gmail.com>

:)  Yes, sir.  I'm there for sure.

On 11/14/10, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
> Hello Jedi and everyone,
>
>     Some of us who dared to believe that a car drivable by the blind as far
> back as the 1960s was a possibility were subject to horrendous treatment by
> some agencies for the blind for thinking out-of-the-box. At one
> God-for-saken hell hole in Massachusetts that fortunately no longer operates
> voicing such beliefs could get you confined to your room for five hours at a
> time without supper. Hence when someone voices a belief concerning an
> initiative they have not taken the time to research thoroughly such as the
> blind driver challenge they're walking on the fighting side of me!
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jedi" <loneblindjedi at samobile.net>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 5:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates AgainstBlindStudentsand
> Faculty
>
>
> In the short-run, maybe. But a blind drivable car would solve more
> problems in the long-run. By making blind folks see, we're not dealing
> with the social problems of blindness being a sort of second-class
> citizenship. With the car, we're forcing people to think and talk about
> the issues we've been tackling for years. Cheers.
>
> Respectfully,
> Jedi
>
> Original message:
>> Hello Peter,
>> I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think it
>> would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than to
>> develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of
>> course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
>> Dennis
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand
>> Faculty
>
>
>> Hello everyone,
>
>>     Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to
>> drive
>> as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
>> happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the
>> next
>> time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or
>> the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you
>> up.
>> It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
>> empowered to live their lives as they choose.
>
>> Peter Donahue
>
>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
>> Faculty
>
>
>> I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?
>> While
>> I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
>> technology
>> that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
>> particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile
>> graphics.
>> The fact is,
>> whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries
>> loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
>> dramatic.
>
>> Best regards,
>
>> Steve Jacobson
>
>> On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:
>
>>> What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is
>>> what
>>> the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>>> will
>> drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
>> today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
>> problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
>> drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.
>
>
>
>>> --- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:
>
>>>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>>> Faculty
>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>
>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>
>
>
>>>> CONTACT:
>
>>>> Chris Danielsen
>
>>>> Director of Public Relations
>
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>
>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>
>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>
>>>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>
>
>
>
>>>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>>> Faculty
>
>
>
>
>>>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>>>> Penn State
>
>
>
>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>>>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>>>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>>>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>>>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>>>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>>>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>>>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>>>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>>>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>>>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>>>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>>>> to their programs and services.
>
>
>
>>>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>>>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>>>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>>>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>>>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>>>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>>>> properly interpreting the site.
>>>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>>>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>>>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>>>> Services.
>>>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>>>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>>>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>>>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>>>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>>>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>>>> to blind users.
>>>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>>>> â¬Ssmart⬠ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>>>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>>>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>>>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>>>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>>>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>>>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>>>> podium.
>>>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>>>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>>>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>>>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>>>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>>>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>>>> and independently.
>
>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>>>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>>>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>>>> institutionâ¬"s blatant­and unlawful­lack of regard for
>>>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>>>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>>>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>>>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>>>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>>>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>>>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>>>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>>>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>>>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>>>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.â¬
>
>
>
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>>>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>>>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>>>> Levy.
>
>
>
>>>> ###
>
>
>
>
>
>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>
>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>>>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>>>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>>>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>>>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>>>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>>>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>>>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>>>> first research and training center in the United States for
>>>> the blind led by the blind.
>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
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>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>
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> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit
> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.
>
>
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From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Sun Nov 14 22:54:36 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 14:54:36 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand	Faculty
References: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com><001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><014801cb838c$c94f0410$6601a8c0@server>
	<004e01cb840c$07d05980$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <019e01cb844e$e9b48af0$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Peter,

I went to the link you provided in your email, because I thought I would be 
able to read about the current status of the project.  All I saw there was 
marketing and PR verbiage, which doesn't provide much concrete information. 
It appears from your post that you have actual knowledge as to the present 
status of the project since you said that it is further along than many 
people think.  Can you share your source of information about the project 
with me so I can read about it, or alternatively just tell me what you know 
as to how far along the project is?

I will admit that I am troubled by many aspects of this project.  I guess my 
first question is if this is something which blind people see themselves 
actually owning and being permitted to drive in their lifetimes.  If so, I 
do not want to ever take away someone's hope and optimism for a better life.

At the risk of doing what I just said I do not wish to do, please consider 
the following.  Even if the engineering challenges were to be overcome and 
such a car could be built for a price that people, other than the military 
could actually afford, do you think the legal system would ever allow a 
blind person to man such a vehicle on the open road?  For example, one of my 
engineering professors designed the automatic control system for the Boeing 
767 aircraft.  The 767, along with many other commercial aircraft, can 
actually fly and land itself using the planes automatic control system. 
Despite this fact, there are no blind pilots today, nor are there any pilots 
with less than perfect eyesight flying these planes.  Flying and landing a 
jet using automated controls is substantially easier than driving a car on 
the open road, and yet the FAA and the legal system does not permit this to 
be done.  The reason is of course that automated systems sometimes fail or 
crash, and when this happens, a person who is fully capable of operating the 
vehicle without the automated system must be at the controls to avoid a 
disaster.  A 3000 pound object flying down a freeway at 60 MPH with a blind 
person at the helm, when the "accessible navigation and instrumentation 
interface" crashes, would result in many deaths.

There is no question that the military does want a ground vehicle like a car 
which can be driven using automated controls.  We are currently using 
automated control pilotless airplanes called drones for reconnaissance and 
to drop bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the military does want similar 
ground vehicles for the same type of operations.  If VMI can demonstrate 
some success with this project the military money will come flowing in like 
water from a river whose dam has failed.

Perhaps the NFB has lots of money and if so there is no problem funding such 
projects.  However, most businesses and 501C3 organizations are struggling 
presently, and they are forced to prioritize expenditures to get the most 
bang for the buck.  If the NFB is not in this position, that is wonderful 
and leadership should be commended for their managerial abilities.  If a 
time does come when funds are tight I would hope that the NFB and any other 
501C3 organization would prioritize its spending so as to address today's 
issues, and leave the funding of longer term and more speculative goals to a 
better financial time.

Obviously reasonable people can disagree on such matters, and all the 
foregoing is just one guys opinion.

All the best,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand 
Faculty


Good morning everyone,

    Get your rear end to the Rolex 24 in Daytona Beach in January and we'll
discuss it after you've been there and seen the prototype demonstrated.
Learn more at:
http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org

    It's further along than you think. See you there.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates AgainstBlindStudentsand
Faculty


Hello Peter,
I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think it
would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than to
develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of
course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand
Faculty


Hello everyone,

    Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to drive
as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the next
time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or
the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you up.
It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
empowered to live their lives as they choose.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
Faculty


I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?  While
I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
technology
that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile graphics.
The fact is,
whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries
loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
dramatic.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:

>What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what
>the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>will
drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.



>--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:

>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>> Faculty
>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>>
>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>
>>
>>
>> CONTACT:
>>
>> Chris Danielsen
>>
>> Director of Public Relations
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>
>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>
>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>> Penn State
>>
>>
>>
>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>> to their programs and services.
>>
>>
>>
>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>> properly interpreting the site.
>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>> Services.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>> to blind users.
>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>> â¬Ssmart⬝ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>> podium.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>> and independently.
>>
>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>> institutionâ¬"s blatant­and unlawful­lack of regard for
>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬝
>>
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>> Levy.
>>
>>
>>
>> ###
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>> first research and training center in the United States for
>> the blind led by the blind.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>


>

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From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Sun Nov 14 23:00:25 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 18:00:25 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand	Faculty
In-Reply-To: <019e01cb844e$e9b48af0$6601a8c0@server>
References: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<014801cb838c$c94f0410$6601a8c0@server>
	<004e01cb840c$07d05980$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<019e01cb844e$e9b48af0$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <E3B9F2E8-DB4E-4B35-86E0-9B3E724D3F33@mac.com>

Dennis:
The status is that there is one prototype built, and 2 more being worked on.
One is to be driven this January at more then 90 mph on a racetrack down in FL.
Other than that, I don't know.

Jorge



On Nov 14, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Dennis Clark wrote:

> Hello Peter,
> 
> I went to the link you provided in your email, because I thought I would be able to read about the current status of the project.  All I saw there was marketing and PR verbiage, which doesn't provide much concrete information. It appears from your post that you have actual knowledge as to the present status of the project since you said that it is further along than many people think.  Can you share your source of information about the project with me so I can read about it, or alternatively just tell me what you know as to how far along the project is?
> 
> I will admit that I am troubled by many aspects of this project.  I guess my first question is if this is something which blind people see themselves actually owning and being permitted to drive in their lifetimes.  If so, I do not want to ever take away someone's hope and optimism for a better life.
> 
> At the risk of doing what I just said I do not wish to do, please consider the following.  Even if the engineering challenges were to be overcome and such a car could be built for a price that people, other than the military could actually afford, do you think the legal system would ever allow a blind person to man such a vehicle on the open road?  For example, one of my engineering professors designed the automatic control system for the Boeing 767 aircraft.  The 767, along with many other commercial aircraft, can actually fly and land itself using the planes automatic control system. Despite this fact, there are no blind pilots today, nor are there any pilots with less than perfect eyesight flying these planes.  Flying and landing a jet using automated controls is substantially easier than driving a car on the open road, and yet the FAA and the legal system does not permit this to be done.  The reason is of course that automated systems sometimes fail or crash, and when this happens, a person who is fully capable of operating the vehicle without the automated system must be at the controls to avoid a disaster.  A 3000 pound object flying down a freeway at 60 MPH with a blind person at the helm, when the "accessible navigation and instrumentation interface" crashes, would result in many deaths.
> 
> There is no question that the military does want a ground vehicle like a car which can be driven using automated controls.  We are currently using automated control pilotless airplanes called drones for reconnaissance and to drop bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the military does want similar ground vehicles for the same type of operations.  If VMI can demonstrate some success with this project the military money will come flowing in like water from a river whose dam has failed.
> 
> Perhaps the NFB has lots of money and if so there is no problem funding such projects.  However, most businesses and 501C3 organizations are struggling presently, and they are forced to prioritize expenditures to get the most bang for the buck.  If the NFB is not in this position, that is wonderful and leadership should be commended for their managerial abilities.  If a time does come when funds are tight I would hope that the NFB and any other 501C3 organization would prioritize its spending so as to address today's issues, and leave the funding of longer term and more speculative goals to a better financial time.
> 
> Obviously reasonable people can disagree on such matters, and all the foregoing is just one guys opinion.
> 
> All the best,
> Dennis
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand Faculty
> 
> 
> Good morning everyone,
> 
>   Get your rear end to the Rolex 24 in Daytona Beach in January and we'll
> discuss it after you've been there and seen the prototype demonstrated.
> Learn more at:
> http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
> 
>   It's further along than you think. See you there.
> 
> Peter Donahue
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 5:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates AgainstBlindStudentsand
> Faculty
> 
> 
> Hello Peter,
> I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think it
> would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than to
> develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of
> course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
> Dennis
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand
> Faculty
> 
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
>   Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to drive
> as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
> happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the next
> time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or
> the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you up.
> It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
> empowered to live their lives as they choose.
> 
> Peter Donahue
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
> Faculty
> 
> 
> I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?  While
> I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
> technology
> that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
> particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile graphics.
> The fact is,
> whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries
> loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
> dramatic.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Steve Jacobson
> 
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:
> 
>> What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what
>> the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>> will
> drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
> today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
> problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
> drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.
> 
> 
> 
>> --- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:
> 
>>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>> Faculty
>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>>> 
>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> CONTACT:
>>> 
>>> Chris Danielsen
>>> 
>>> Director of Public Relations
>>> 
>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>> 
>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>> 
>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>> 
>>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>> Faculty
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>>> Penn State
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>>> to their programs and services.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>>> properly interpreting the site.
>>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>>> Services.
>>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>>> to blind users.
>>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>>> â¬Ssmart⬡ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>>> podium.
>>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>>> and independently.
>>> 
>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>>> institutionâ¬"s blatant–and unlawful–lack of regard for
>>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬡
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>>> Levy.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ###
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>> 
>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>>> first research and training center in the United States for
>>> the blind led by the blind.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>> 
> 
> 
>> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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> 
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From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 23:12:51 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 16:12:51 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand Faculty
In-Reply-To: <019e01cb844e$e9b48af0$6601a8c0@server>
References: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<014801cb838c$c94f0410$6601a8c0@server>
	<004e01cb840c$07d05980$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<019e01cb844e$e9b48af0$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimSB=V4sL8J+ZgS-oimuzgWej9wGXGJ5Wf9SQ8v@mail.gmail.com>

Dennis and all,
  I'm still very skeptical of the idea behind the blind driver
challenge, I have been ever since I heard about it.  I'm a Freshman in
college and...yeah, I don't see myself driving a car independently.
Ever.  Especially with the legal challenges you just mentioned.
  But I'm all for them trying.  I doubt I'll be behind the wheel of a
car in my lifetime.  In fact, I'd be surprised, even shocked, if that
happened.  But who knows what might come from the research here.
Maybe money is tight, and I do see your point about finances and
practicality.  But...maybe, just maybe, this is possible.  And, if it
is, it would be absolutely incredible!  And, as is likely the case, if
the car doesn't come to fruition...I don't think the money was wasted.
 Because this could have a million applications other places.
And...even if it doesn't, even if nothing tangible comes from the
millions of dollars, I'd still think they made the right choice by
giving it a shot.
  Just my two cents,
Kirt

On 11/14/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello Peter,
>
> I went to the link you provided in your email, because I thought I would be
> able to read about the current status of the project.  All I saw there was
> marketing and PR verbiage, which doesn't provide much concrete information.
> It appears from your post that you have actual knowledge as to the present
> status of the project since you said that it is further along than many
> people think.  Can you share your source of information about the project
> with me so I can read about it, or alternatively just tell me what you know
> as to how far along the project is?
>
> I will admit that I am troubled by many aspects of this project.  I guess my
> first question is if this is something which blind people see themselves
> actually owning and being permitted to drive in their lifetimes.  If so, I
> do not want to ever take away someone's hope and optimism for a better life.
>
> At the risk of doing what I just said I do not wish to do, please consider
> the following.  Even if the engineering challenges were to be overcome and
> such a car could be built for a price that people, other than the military
> could actually afford, do you think the legal system would ever allow a
> blind person to man such a vehicle on the open road?  For example, one of my
> engineering professors designed the automatic control system for the Boeing
> 767 aircraft.  The 767, along with many other commercial aircraft, can
> actually fly and land itself using the planes automatic control system.
> Despite this fact, there are no blind pilots today, nor are there any pilots
> with less than perfect eyesight flying these planes.  Flying and landing a
> jet using automated controls is substantially easier than driving a car on
> the open road, and yet the FAA and the legal system does not permit this to
> be done.  The reason is of course that automated systems sometimes fail or
> crash, and when this happens, a person who is fully capable of operating the
> vehicle without the automated system must be at the controls to avoid a
> disaster.  A 3000 pound object flying down a freeway at 60 MPH with a blind
> person at the helm, when the "accessible navigation and instrumentation
> interface" crashes, would result in many deaths.
>
> There is no question that the military does want a ground vehicle like a car
> which can be driven using automated controls.  We are currently using
> automated control pilotless airplanes called drones for reconnaissance and
> to drop bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the military does want similar
> ground vehicles for the same type of operations.  If VMI can demonstrate
> some success with this project the military money will come flowing in like
> water from a river whose dam has failed.
>
> Perhaps the NFB has lots of money and if so there is no problem funding such
> projects.  However, most businesses and 501C3 organizations are struggling
> presently, and they are forced to prioritize expenditures to get the most
> bang for the buck.  If the NFB is not in this position, that is wonderful
> and leadership should be commended for their managerial abilities.  If a
> time does come when funds are tight I would hope that the NFB and any other
> 501C3 organization would prioritize its spending so as to address today's
> issues, and leave the funding of longer term and more speculative goals to a
> better financial time.
>
> Obviously reasonable people can disagree on such matters, and all the
> foregoing is just one guys opinion.
>
> All the best,
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:55 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand
> Faculty
>
>
> Good morning everyone,
>
>     Get your rear end to the Rolex 24 in Daytona Beach in January and we'll
> discuss it after you've been there and seen the prototype demonstrated.
> Learn more at:
> http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
>
>     It's further along than you think. See you there.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 5:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates AgainstBlindStudentsand
> Faculty
>
>
> Hello Peter,
> I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think it
> would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than to
> develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of
> course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand
> Faculty
>
>
> Hello everyone,
>
>     Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to drive
> as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
> happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the next
> time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or
> the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you up.
> It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
> empowered to live their lives as they choose.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
> Faculty
>
>
> I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?  While
> I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
> technology
> that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
> particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile graphics.
> The fact is,
> whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries
> loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
> dramatic.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:
>
>>What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what
>>the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>>will
> drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
> today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
> problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
> drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.
>
>
>
>>--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:
>
>>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>> Faculty
>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>>>
>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CONTACT:
>>>
>>> Chris Danielsen
>>>
>>> Director of Public Relations
>>>
>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>
>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>>
>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>>
>>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>> Faculty
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>>> Penn State
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>>> to their programs and services.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>>> properly interpreting the site.
>>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>>> Services.
>>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>>> to blind users.
>>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>>> â¬Ssmart⬠ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>>> podium.
>>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>>> and independently.
>>>
>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>>> institutionâ¬"s blatant­and unlawful­lack of regard for
>>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.â¬
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>>> Levy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ###
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>>
>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>>> first research and training center in the United States for
>>> the blind led by the blind.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>>
>
>
>>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>nabs-l:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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>


From hope.paulos at gmail.com  Sun Nov 14 23:20:24 2010
From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 18:20:24 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Question concerning slates and styli
Message-ID: <04557FDE2466429989B48DAFF8B863F6@Espy>

Hi there. I haven't used a slate and stylus for a very long time. Can someone recommend a good type of slate and the difference from having the pins on the top and the bottome? Which type of stylus do you prefer and why? I have to get one because am going back for my masters to become a TbVI.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Hope Paulos

From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Sun Nov 14 23:37:23 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 15:37:23 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand	Faculty
References: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com><001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><014801cb838c$c94f0410$6601a8c0@server><004e01cb840c$07d05980$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><019e01cb844e$e9b48af0$6601a8c0@server>
	<E3B9F2E8-DB4E-4B35-86E0-9B3E724D3F33@mac.com>
Message-ID: <01e401cb8454$e40ba9c0$6601a8c0@server>

Hi George,
Thanks for the update.  Will it be driven at 90 MPH by someone totally 
blind?  Also, I saw your other question about LLC filing.  As I recall you 
are in New York, is that correct?  I am licensed to practice law in New 
York, but I have never set up a corporation there.  If this is something you 
want to do, I would suggest that you use LegalZoom.  I am pretty sure that 
they operate in New York.  They will take care of all the filing 
requirements including newspaper posting if that is required.  There fees 
are quite reasonable for such a service.
All the best,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand 
Faculty


> Dennis:
> The status is that there is one prototype built, and 2 more being worked 
> on.
> One is to be driven this January at more then 90 mph on a racetrack down 
> in FL.
> Other than that, I don't know.
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Dennis Clark wrote:
>
>> Hello Peter,
>>
>> I went to the link you provided in your email, because I thought I would 
>> be able to read about the current status of the project.  All I saw there 
>> was marketing and PR verbiage, which doesn't provide much concrete 
>> information. It appears from your post that you have actual knowledge as 
>> to the present status of the project since you said that it is further 
>> along than many people think.  Can you share your source of information 
>> about the project with me so I can read about it, or alternatively just 
>> tell me what you know as to how far along the project is?
>>
>> I will admit that I am troubled by many aspects of this project.  I guess 
>> my first question is if this is something which blind people see 
>> themselves actually owning and being permitted to drive in their 
>> lifetimes.  If so, I do not want to ever take away someone's hope and 
>> optimism for a better life.
>>
>> At the risk of doing what I just said I do not wish to do, please 
>> consider the following.  Even if the engineering challenges were to be 
>> overcome and such a car could be built for a price that people, other 
>> than the military could actually afford, do you think the legal system 
>> would ever allow a blind person to man such a vehicle on the open road? 
>> For example, one of my engineering professors designed the automatic 
>> control system for the Boeing 767 aircraft.  The 767, along with many 
>> other commercial aircraft, can actually fly and land itself using the 
>> planes automatic control system. Despite this fact, there are no blind 
>> pilots today, nor are there any pilots with less than perfect eyesight 
>> flying these planes.  Flying and landing a jet using automated controls 
>> is substantially easier than driving a car on the open road, and yet the 
>> FAA and the legal system does not permit this to be done.  The reason is 
>> of course that automated systems sometimes fail or crash, and when this 
>> happens, a person who is fully capable of operating the vehicle without 
>> the automated system must be at the controls to avoid a disaster.  A 3000 
>> pound object flying down a freeway at 60 MPH with a blind person at the 
>> helm, when the "accessible navigation and instrumentation interface" 
>> crashes, would result in many deaths.
>>
>> There is no question that the military does want a ground vehicle like a 
>> car which can be driven using automated controls.  We are currently using 
>> automated control pilotless airplanes called drones for reconnaissance 
>> and to drop bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the military does want 
>> similar ground vehicles for the same type of operations.  If VMI can 
>> demonstrate some success with this project the military money will come 
>> flowing in like water from a river whose dam has failed.
>>
>> Perhaps the NFB has lots of money and if so there is no problem funding 
>> such projects.  However, most businesses and 501C3 organizations are 
>> struggling presently, and they are forced to prioritize expenditures to 
>> get the most bang for the buck.  If the NFB is not in this position, that 
>> is wonderful and leadership should be commended for their managerial 
>> abilities.  If a time does come when funds are tight I would hope that 
>> the NFB and any other 501C3 organization would prioritize its spending so 
>> as to address today's issues, and leave the funding of longer term and 
>> more speculative goals to a better financial time.
>>
>> Obviously reasonable people can disagree on such matters, and all the 
>> foregoing is just one guys opinion.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Dennis
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" 
>> <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:55 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand 
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>> Good morning everyone,
>>
>>   Get your rear end to the Rolex 24 in Daytona Beach in January and we'll
>> discuss it after you've been there and seen the prototype demonstrated.
>> Learn more at:
>> http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
>>
>>   It's further along than you think. See you there.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" 
>> <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 5:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates AgainstBlindStudentsand
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>> Hello Peter,
>> I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think 
>> it
>> would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than 
>> to
>> develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of
>> course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
>> Dennis
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" 
>> <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>>   Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to 
>> drive
>> as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
>> happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the 
>> next
>> time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation 
>> or
>> the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you 
>> up.
>> It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
>> empowered to live their lives as they choose.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" 
>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>> I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this? 
>> While
>> I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
>> technology
>> that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
>> particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile 
>> graphics.
>> The fact is,
>> whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving 
>> pries
>> loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
>> dramatic.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:
>>
>>> What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is 
>>> what
>>> the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>>> will
>> drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
>> today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
>> problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
>> drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.
>>
>>
>>
>>> --- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>>> Faculty
>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>>>>
>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CONTACT:
>>>>
>>>> Chris Danielsen
>>>>
>>>> Director of Public Relations
>>>>
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>
>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>>>
>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>>>
>>>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>>> Faculty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>>>> Penn State
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>>>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>>>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>>>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>>>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>>>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>>>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>>>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>>>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>>>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>>>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>>>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>>>> to their programs and services.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>>>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>>>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>>>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>>>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>>>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>>>> properly interpreting the site.
>>>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>>>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>>>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>>>> Services.
>>>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>>>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>>>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>>>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>>>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>>>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>>>> to blind users.
>>>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>>>> â¬Ssmart⬡ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>>>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>>>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>>>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>>>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>>>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>>>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>>>> podium.
>>>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>>>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>>>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>>>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>>>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>>>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>>>> and independently.
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>>>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>>>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>>>> institutionâ¬"s blatant–and unlawful–lack of regard for
>>>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>>>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>>>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>>>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>>>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>>>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>>>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>>>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>>>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>>>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>>>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬡
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>>>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>>>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>>>> Levy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ###
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>
>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>>>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>>>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>>>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>>>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>>>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>>>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>>>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>>>> first research and training center in the United States for
>>>> the blind led by the blind.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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> 



From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com  Mon Nov 15 00:21:53 2010
From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 18:21:53 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand	Faculty
References: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com><001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><014801cb838c$c94f0410$6601a8c0@server><004e01cb840c$07d05980$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<019e01cb844e$e9b48af0$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <001701cb845b$1b37e750$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello everyone,

    If you view the videos and take the time to read every single page of 
that site you'll find lots of great information. Be sure to listen to the 
videos. There are lots of them. Most importantly be in Daytona Beach this 
coming January. Some of us suffered cruel and unusual punishment to bring 
this day about.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand 
Faculty


Hello Peter,

I went to the link you provided in your email, because I thought I would be
able to read about the current status of the project.  All I saw there was
marketing and PR verbiage, which doesn't provide much concrete information.
It appears from your post that you have actual knowledge as to the present
status of the project since you said that it is further along than many
people think.  Can you share your source of information about the project
with me so I can read about it, or alternatively just tell me what you know
as to how far along the project is?

I will admit that I am troubled by many aspects of this project.  I guess my
first question is if this is something which blind people see themselves
actually owning and being permitted to drive in their lifetimes.  If so, I
do not want to ever take away someone's hope and optimism for a better life.

At the risk of doing what I just said I do not wish to do, please consider
the following.  Even if the engineering challenges were to be overcome and
such a car could be built for a price that people, other than the military
could actually afford, do you think the legal system would ever allow a
blind person to man such a vehicle on the open road?  For example, one of my
engineering professors designed the automatic control system for the Boeing
767 aircraft.  The 767, along with many other commercial aircraft, can
actually fly and land itself using the planes automatic control system.
Despite this fact, there are no blind pilots today, nor are there any pilots
with less than perfect eyesight flying these planes.  Flying and landing a
jet using automated controls is substantially easier than driving a car on
the open road, and yet the FAA and the legal system does not permit this to
be done.  The reason is of course that automated systems sometimes fail or
crash, and when this happens, a person who is fully capable of operating the
vehicle without the automated system must be at the controls to avoid a
disaster.  A 3000 pound object flying down a freeway at 60 MPH with a blind
person at the helm, when the "accessible navigation and instrumentation
interface" crashes, would result in many deaths.

There is no question that the military does want a ground vehicle like a car
which can be driven using automated controls.  We are currently using
automated control pilotless airplanes called drones for reconnaissance and
to drop bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the military does want similar
ground vehicles for the same type of operations.  If VMI can demonstrate
some success with this project the military money will come flowing in like
water from a river whose dam has failed.

Perhaps the NFB has lots of money and if so there is no problem funding such
projects.  However, most businesses and 501C3 organizations are struggling
presently, and they are forced to prioritize expenditures to get the most
bang for the buck.  If the NFB is not in this position, that is wonderful
and leadership should be commended for their managerial abilities.  If a
time does come when funds are tight I would hope that the NFB and any other
501C3 organization would prioritize its spending so as to address today's
issues, and leave the funding of longer term and more speculative goals to a
better financial time.

Obviously reasonable people can disagree on such matters, and all the
foregoing is just one guys opinion.

All the best,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand
Faculty


Good morning everyone,

    Get your rear end to the Rolex 24 in Daytona Beach in January and we'll
discuss it after you've been there and seen the prototype demonstrated.
Learn more at:
http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org

    It's further along than you think. See you there.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates AgainstBlindStudentsand
Faculty


Hello Peter,
I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think it
would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than to
develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of
course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand
Faculty


Hello everyone,

    Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to drive
as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the next
time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or
the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you up.
It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
empowered to live their lives as they choose.

Peter Donahue


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
Faculty


I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?  While
I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
technology
that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile graphics.
The fact is,
whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries
loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
dramatic.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:

>What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what
>the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>will
drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.



>--- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:

>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>> Faculty
>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>>
>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>
>>
>>
>> CONTACT:
>>
>> Chris Danielsen
>>
>> Director of Public Relations
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>
>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>
>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>> Penn State
>>
>>
>>
>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>> to their programs and services.
>>
>>
>>
>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>> properly interpreting the site.
>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>> Services.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>> to blind users.
>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>> â¬Ssmart⬝ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>> podium.
>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>> and independently.
>>
>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>> institutionâ¬"s blatant­and unlawful­lack of regard for
>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬝
>>
>>
>>
>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>> Levy.
>>
>>
>>
>> ###
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>
>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>> first research and training center in the United States for
>> the blind led by the blind.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>> account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>


>

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From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com  Mon Nov 15 00:26:03 2010
From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 18:26:03 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand	Faculty
References: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com><001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><014801cb838c$c94f0410$6601a8c0@server><004e01cb840c$07d05980$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn><019e01cb844e$e9b48af0$6601a8c0@server><E3B9F2E8-DB4E-4B35-86E0-9B3E724D3F33@mac.com>
	<01e401cb8454$e40ba9c0$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <001d01cb845b$b0316a70$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Hello Dennis and everyone,

    It's not a speed demonstration but an exhibission of technology that 
will enable a blind person to drive a vehicle independently. And as the 
material on: www.blinddriverchallenge.org points out a springboard from 
which other technologies will be developed to further enhance the lives of 
the blind.

Peter Donahue
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand 
Faculty


Hi George,
Thanks for the update.  Will it be driven at 90 MPH by someone totally
blind?  Also, I saw your other question about LLC filing.  As I recall you
are in New York, is that correct?  I am licensed to practice law in New
York, but I have never set up a corporation there.  If this is something you
want to do, I would suggest that you use LegalZoom.  I am pretty sure that
they operate in New York.  They will take care of all the filing
requirements including newspaper posting if that is required.  There fees
are quite reasonable for such a service.
All the best,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand
Faculty


> Dennis:
> The status is that there is one prototype built, and 2 more being worked
> on.
> One is to be driven this January at more then 90 mph on a racetrack down
> in FL.
> Other than that, I don't know.
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Dennis Clark wrote:
>
>> Hello Peter,
>>
>> I went to the link you provided in your email, because I thought I would
>> be able to read about the current status of the project.  All I saw there
>> was marketing and PR verbiage, which doesn't provide much concrete
>> information. It appears from your post that you have actual knowledge as
>> to the present status of the project since you said that it is further
>> along than many people think.  Can you share your source of information
>> about the project with me so I can read about it, or alternatively just
>> tell me what you know as to how far along the project is?
>>
>> I will admit that I am troubled by many aspects of this project.  I guess
>> my first question is if this is something which blind people see
>> themselves actually owning and being permitted to drive in their
>> lifetimes.  If so, I do not want to ever take away someone's hope and
>> optimism for a better life.
>>
>> At the risk of doing what I just said I do not wish to do, please
>> consider the following.  Even if the engineering challenges were to be
>> overcome and such a car could be built for a price that people, other
>> than the military could actually afford, do you think the legal system
>> would ever allow a blind person to man such a vehicle on the open road?
>> For example, one of my engineering professors designed the automatic
>> control system for the Boeing 767 aircraft.  The 767, along with many
>> other commercial aircraft, can actually fly and land itself using the
>> planes automatic control system. Despite this fact, there are no blind
>> pilots today, nor are there any pilots with less than perfect eyesight
>> flying these planes.  Flying and landing a jet using automated controls
>> is substantially easier than driving a car on the open road, and yet the
>> FAA and the legal system does not permit this to be done.  The reason is
>> of course that automated systems sometimes fail or crash, and when this
>> happens, a person who is fully capable of operating the vehicle without
>> the automated system must be at the controls to avoid a disaster.  A 3000
>> pound object flying down a freeway at 60 MPH with a blind person at the
>> helm, when the "accessible navigation and instrumentation interface"
>> crashes, would result in many deaths.
>>
>> There is no question that the military does want a ground vehicle like a
>> car which can be driven using automated controls.  We are currently using
>> automated control pilotless airplanes called drones for reconnaissance
>> and to drop bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the military does want
>> similar ground vehicles for the same type of operations.  If VMI can
>> demonstrate some success with this project the military money will come
>> flowing in like water from a river whose dam has failed.
>>
>> Perhaps the NFB has lots of money and if so there is no problem funding
>> such projects.  However, most businesses and 501C3 organizations are
>> struggling presently, and they are forced to prioritize expenditures to
>> get the most bang for the buck.  If the NFB is not in this position, that
>> is wonderful and leadership should be commended for their managerial
>> abilities.  If a time does come when funds are tight I would hope that
>> the NFB and any other 501C3 organization would prioritize its spending so
>> as to address today's issues, and leave the funding of longer term and
>> more speculative goals to a better financial time.
>>
>> Obviously reasonable people can disagree on such matters, and all the
>> foregoing is just one guys opinion.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Dennis
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue"
>> <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:55 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>> Good morning everyone,
>>
>>   Get your rear end to the Rolex 24 in Daytona Beach in January and we'll
>> discuss it after you've been there and seen the prototype demonstrated.
>> Learn more at:
>> http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
>>
>>   It's further along than you think. See you there.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark"
>> <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 5:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates AgainstBlindStudentsand
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>> Hello Peter,
>> I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think
>> it
>> would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than
>> to
>> develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of
>> course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
>> Dennis
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue"
>> <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>>   Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to
>> drive
>> as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
>> happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the
>> next
>> time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation
>> or
>> the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you
>> up.
>> It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
>> empowered to live their lives as they choose.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson"
>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
>> Faculty
>>
>>
>> I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this?
>> While
>> I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
>> technology
>> that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
>> particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile
>> graphics.
>> The fact is,
>> whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving
>> pries
>> loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
>> dramatic.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Steve Jacobson
>>
>> On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:
>>
>>> What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is
>>> what
>>> the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>>> will
>> drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
>> today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
>> problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
>> drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.
>>
>>
>>
>>> --- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:
>>
>>>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>>> Faculty
>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>>>>
>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CONTACT:
>>>>
>>>> Chris Danielsen
>>>>
>>>> Director of Public Relations
>>>>
>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>
>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>>>
>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>>>
>>>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>>> Faculty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>>>> Penn State
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>>>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>>>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>>>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>>>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>>>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>>>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>>>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>>>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>>>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>>>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>>>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>>>> to their programs and services.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>>>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>>>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>>>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>>>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>>>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>>>> properly interpreting the site.
>>>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>>>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>>>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>>>> Services.
>>>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>>>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>>>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>>>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>>>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>>>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>>>> to blind users.
>>>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>>>> â¬Ssmart⬡ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>>>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>>>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>>>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>>>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>>>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>>>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>>>> podium.
>>>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>>>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>>>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>>>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>>>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>>>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>>>> and independently.
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>>>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>>>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>>>> institutionâ¬"s blatant–and unlawful–lack of regard for
>>>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>>>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>>>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>>>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>>>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>>>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>>>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>>>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>>>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>>>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>>>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬡
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>>>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>>>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>>>> Levy.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ###
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>
>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>>>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>>>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>>>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>>>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>>>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>>>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>>>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>>>> first research and training center in the United States for
>>>> the blind led by the blind.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Mon Nov 15 00:28:26 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sun, 14 Nov 2010 19:28:26 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand	Faculty
In-Reply-To: <01e401cb8454$e40ba9c0$6601a8c0@server>
References: <auto-000177817451@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<001601cb8385$0f624aa0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<014801cb838c$c94f0410$6601a8c0@server>
	<004e01cb840c$07d05980$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<019e01cb844e$e9b48af0$6601a8c0@server>
	<E3B9F2E8-DB4E-4B35-86E0-9B3E724D3F33@mac.com>
	<01e401cb8454$e40ba9c0$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <DD2522C4-0887-48B1-A6BB-C8B454D2E322@mac.com>

Yes,
it'll be driven by someone totally blind, at least, I believe that's what President Maurer meant by blind, yet some people use it to refer to the visually impaired too, so I'm not sure.
EIther way the data is going to come in threw vibrations, so it shouldn't make a difference.

Jorge

P.S., thanks for the reference to Legal Zoom. I'll look into it.



On Nov 14, 2010, at 6:37 PM, Dennis Clark wrote:

> Hi George,
> Thanks for the update.  Will it be driven at 90 MPH by someone totally blind?  Also, I saw your other question about LLC filing.  As I recall you are in New York, is that correct?  I am licensed to practice law in New York, but I have never set up a corporation there.  If this is something you want to do, I would suggest that you use LegalZoom.  I am pretty sure that they operate in New York.  They will take care of all the filing requirements including newspaper posting if that is required.  There fees are quite reasonable for such a service.
> All the best,
> Dennis
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand Faculty
> 
> 
>> Dennis:
>> The status is that there is one prototype built, and 2 more being worked on.
>> One is to be driven this January at more then 90 mph on a racetrack down in FL.
>> Other than that, I don't know.
>> 
>> Jorge
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 14, 2010, at 5:54 PM, Dennis Clark wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello Peter,
>>> 
>>> I went to the link you provided in your email, because I thought I would be able to read about the current status of the project.  All I saw there was marketing and PR verbiage, which doesn't provide much concrete information. It appears from your post that you have actual knowledge as to the present status of the project since you said that it is further along than many people think.  Can you share your source of information about the project with me so I can read about it, or alternatively just tell me what you know as to how far along the project is?
>>> 
>>> I will admit that I am troubled by many aspects of this project.  I guess my first question is if this is something which blind people see themselves actually owning and being permitted to drive in their lifetimes.  If so, I do not want to ever take away someone's hope and optimism for a better life.
>>> 
>>> At the risk of doing what I just said I do not wish to do, please consider the following.  Even if the engineering challenges were to be overcome and such a car could be built for a price that people, other than the military could actually afford, do you think the legal system would ever allow a blind person to man such a vehicle on the open road? For example, one of my engineering professors designed the automatic control system for the Boeing 767 aircraft.  The 767, along with many other commercial aircraft, can actually fly and land itself using the planes automatic control system. Despite this fact, there are no blind pilots today, nor are there any pilots with less than perfect eyesight flying these planes.  Flying and landing a jet using automated controls is substantially easier than driving a car on the open road, and yet the FAA and the legal system does not permit this to be done.  The reason is of course that automated systems sometimes fail or crash, and when this happens, a person who is fully capable of operating the vehicle without the automated system must be at the controls to avoid a disaster.  A 3000 pound object flying down a freeway at 60 MPH with a blind person at the helm, when the "accessible navigation and instrumentation interface" crashes, would result in many deaths.
>>> 
>>> There is no question that the military does want a ground vehicle like a car which can be driven using automated controls.  We are currently using automated control pilotless airplanes called drones for reconnaissance and to drop bombs in Iraq and Afghanistan, and the military does want similar ground vehicles for the same type of operations.  If VMI can demonstrate some success with this project the military money will come flowing in like water from a river whose dam has failed.
>>> 
>>> Perhaps the NFB has lots of money and if so there is no problem funding such projects.  However, most businesses and 501C3 organizations are struggling presently, and they are forced to prioritize expenditures to get the most bang for the buck.  If the NFB is not in this position, that is wonderful and leadership should be commended for their managerial abilities.  If a time does come when funds are tight I would hope that the NFB and any other 501C3 organization would prioritize its spending so as to address today's issues, and leave the funding of longer term and more speculative goals to a better financial time.
>>> 
>>> Obviously reasonable people can disagree on such matters, and all the foregoing is just one guys opinion.
>>> 
>>> All the best,
>>> Dennis
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 6:55 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State DiscriminatesAgainstBlindStudentsand Faculty
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Good morning everyone,
>>> 
>>> Get your rear end to the Rolex 24 in Daytona Beach in January and we'll
>>> discuss it after you've been there and seen the prototype demonstrated.
>>> Learn more at:
>>> http://www.blinddriverchallenge.org
>>> 
>>> It's further along than you think. See you there.
>>> 
>>> Peter Donahue
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 5:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates AgainstBlindStudentsand
>>> Faculty
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello Peter,
>>> I think your point is valid.  However, speaking as an engineer, I think it
>>> would be as easy, and perhaps easier, to develop an artificial eye than to
>>> develop the type of car you are suggesting.  An artificial eye would of
>>> course solve many more problems than the car.  Just a thought.
>>> Dennis
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 2:49 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against BlindStudentsand
>>> Faculty
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello everyone,
>>> 
>>> Some of us contemplated the possibility of the blind being able to drive
>>> as far back as the 1960s and will do whatever is necessary to make it
>>> happen. If you think this is a waste of time remember this exchange the next
>>> time you must travel to an area where there is no public transportation or
>>> the next time your bus, taxi, or paratransit vehicle is late picking you up.
>>> It's not just about blind people driving but about blind people being
>>> empowered to live their lives as they choose.
>>> 
>>> Peter Donahue
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 3:20 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Studentsand
>>> Faculty
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I don't understand, are you mad because we did take a stand on this? While
>>> I think that blind people driving is a long shot, there is a lot of
>>> technology
>>> that can spin off from that effort that will help us in other areas,
>>> particularly in the area of possible travel aids and even tactile graphics.
>>> The fact is,
>>> whether you or I like it or not, something like blind people driving pries
>>> loose funding from sources that would not be interested in anything less
>>> dramatic.
>>> 
>>> Best regards,
>>> 
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>> 
>>> On Sat, 13 Nov 2010 09:56:26 -0800 (PST), William ODonnell wrote:
>>> 
>>>> What elce is new when you live as a blind person in the U.S.  This is what
>>>> the NFB should take a stand on, not a fabrication that the blind can and
>>>> will
>>> drive today.  Have that dream for the next 100 years when the problems of
>>> today are solved.  With these continuing problems, we should focus on the
>>> problems of today without falsifying reality.  The blind can and will not
>>> drive when our culture still thinks so little of us.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> --- On Fri, 11/12/10, Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>>> From: Freeh, Jessica <JFreeh at nfb.org>
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>>>> Faculty
>>>>> To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Date: Friday, November 12, 2010, 7:38 PM
>>>>> 
>>>>> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> CONTACT:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Chris Danielsen
>>>>> 
>>>>> Director of Public Relations
>>>>> 
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> 
>>>>> (410) 659-9314, extension 2330
>>>>> 
>>>>> (410) 262-1281 (Cell)
>>>>> 
>>>>> <mailto:cdanielsen at nfb.org>cdanielsen at nfb.org
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Penn State Discriminates Against Blind Students and
>>>>> Faculty
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind Files Complaint Against
>>>>> Penn State
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Baltimore, Maryland (November 12, 2010): The National
>>>>> Federation of the Blind (NFB), the nationâ¬"s oldest and
>>>>> largest organization of blind people, announced today that
>>>>> it has filed a complaint with the United States Department
>>>>> of Education, Office for Civil Rights, requesting an
>>>>> investigation of Pennsylvania State University (Penn State)
>>>>> for violating the civil rights of blind students and
>>>>> faculty.  The NFB filed the complaint because a variety
>>>>> of computer- and technology-based services and Web sites at
>>>>> Penn State are inaccessible to blind students and
>>>>> faculty.  Title II of the Americans with Disabilities
>>>>> Act requires public state universities to offer equal access
>>>>> to their programs and services.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The accessibility problems at Penn State include:
>>>>> Â Â Â * The library at Penn State hosts a Web
>>>>> site with access to the library catalog that is available to
>>>>> any registered student.  The Web site, however, is not
>>>>> fully accessible to blind students due to improper coding
>>>>> that prevents screen access software used by the blind from
>>>>> properly interpreting the site.
>>>>>    * Many of Penn Stateâ¬"s departmental Web
>>>>> sites are not fully accessible to the blind, including,
>>>>> ironically, the Web site for the Office of Disability
>>>>> Services.
>>>>> Â Â Â * Penn State utilizes the ANGEL course
>>>>> management system.  ANGEL is an integral part of the
>>>>> learning and teaching experience at Penn State that allows
>>>>> students and professors to interact with each other online
>>>>> and perform various  course-related functions. This
>>>>> course management software is almost completely inaccessible
>>>>> to blind users.
>>>>> Â Â Â * Many teachers at Penn State use a
>>>>> â¬Ssmart⬡ podium, which allows the professor to connect
>>>>> his/her laptop to a computer at the podium and display
>>>>> images and videos loaded from the laptop on a screen at the
>>>>> front of the room.  The podium is operated by an
>>>>> inaccessible touchscreen keypad that controls almost all
>>>>> podium functions.  Thus, blind faculty members must
>>>>> rely on assistance from a sighted person to utilize the
>>>>> podium.
>>>>> Â Â Â * Penn State contracts with PNC Bank to
>>>>> enable students to use their identification cards as debit
>>>>> cards.  The PNC Web site is nearly inaccessible with
>>>>> screen access software, and there is only one ATM on the
>>>>> entire Penn State campus with audio output through a
>>>>> headphone jack so that blind students can use it privately
>>>>> and independently.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of
>>>>> the Blind, said: â¬SThe number and scope of the
>>>>> accessibility problems at Penn State demonstrate the
>>>>> institutionâ¬"s blatant–and unlawful–lack of regard for
>>>>> the equal education of its blind students and failure to
>>>>> accommodate its blind faculty members and employees.Â
>>>>> There is simply no excuse for blind students and faculty to
>>>>> be denied the same access to information and technology as
>>>>> their sighted peers.  Sadly, this cavalier attitude
>>>>> toward accessibility is found not only at Penn State, but at
>>>>> many of our nationâ¬"s colleges and universities.  That
>>>>> is why we have asked the United States Department of
>>>>> Education to act swiftly and decisively to ensure that blind
>>>>> students and faculty members are given the same access and
>>>>> opportunity to succeed as their sighted peers.⬡
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> The National Federation of the Blind is represented in this
>>>>> matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Sharon Krevor-Weisbaum, and
>>>>> Brooke Lierman of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and
>>>>> Levy.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ###
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> About the National Federation of the Blind
>>>>> 
>>>>> With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of
>>>>> the Blind is the largest and most influential membership
>>>>> organization of blind people in the United States.  The
>>>>> NFB improves blind peopleâ¬"s lives through advocacy,
>>>>> education, research, technology, and programs encouraging
>>>>> independence and self-confidence.  It is the leading
>>>>> force in the blindness field today and the voice of the
>>>>> nation's blind.  In January 2004 the NFB opened the
>>>>> National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the
>>>>> first research and training center in the United States for
>>>>> the blind led by the blind.
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your
>>>>> account info for nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/william.odonnell1%40yahoo.com
>>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
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From jsorozco at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 18:29:21 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:29:21 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] What of the Game?
Message-ID: <BF476343597C44EB81527BB196F1A71A@Rufus>

So, after all the commotion of attending the football game this past
weekend, curious minds want to know what happened?

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 15 19:56:51 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:56:51 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] What of the Game?
References: <BF476343597C44EB81527BB196F1A71A@Rufus>
Message-ID: <FC81A43E051B45E695C27C5CF9A28CAA@Ashley>

Meet too Joe.  Kerry will tell us soon I'm sure!  She's probably catching up 
on homework. 



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 20:13:35 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:13:35 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Question concerning slates and styli
In-Reply-To: <04557FDE2466429989B48DAFF8B863F6@Espy>
References: <04557FDE2466429989B48DAFF8B863F6@Espy>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJxMyrAn6AdZUCAC2W0ssRijuti9c1bxafDdqj@mail.gmail.com>

My personal preferences:
1. Pins on the bottom if it's a regular slate (20-30 cells). This is
because it makes lining the paper up easier, something I have trouble
with. If the pins are on the bottom, I can push the pins through the
paper before lowering the top. Of course, I guess you could do that
with a top-pin slate. The advantage of a top-pin slate is that you can
read the Braille without removing the paper from the pins, by opening
the slate and reading underneath the top. I'm not good at this, and
don't find it easy, but some do.
2. I use a Jannus (sp?) slate a lot more than a regular slate. This is
an interpoint index card slate. I carry this slate, a stylus, and a
box of index cards (a plastic one with snaps bought at the bookstore),
and I'm good to go if I need to take a note. Big plus is that you
slide the index card in from the side and there are no pins.
Disadvantage, sometimes the index card slides a little, so you gotta
hold the end if that happens, so your Braille isn't skewed. I like to
leave a card in the slate so I can just whip it out with the stylus
and I'm good to go.
3. If I'm doing a long letter or lots of writing, like for an essay, I
prefer a full-page slate. This allows me to write without the skew
that inevitably happens when I move the slate down (I'm bad at
alignment). I can also do pretty decent Braille pictures on a full
Braille slate that would be skewed a lot using a four-line slate.
4. Styli do matter! I much prefer the round stylus because the saddle
stylus hurts my finger joints, but most people like the saddle stylus.
There are other styli out there (like the pen stylus, which I do *not*
recommend), but the saddle and round styli are the most popular.
5. Reading the Slate Book is a great way to get back in practice with
the slate and stylus. It's available from Bookshare, or you can order
it in Braille, I think from APH?

Hope that helps! And I'm going to be a TVI also. Where are you doing
your Graduate work?

On 11/14/10, Hope Paulos <hope.paulos at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi there. I haven't used a slate and stylus for a very long time. Can
> someone recommend a good type of slate and the difference from having the
> pins on the top and the bottome? Which type of stylus do you prefer and why?
> I have to get one because am going back for my masters to become a TbVI.
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks.
> Hope Paulos
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 21:01:29 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 13:01:29 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] a university in saltlake
Message-ID: <1DA3BFCF-43FF-4118-8D51-F29DCA03582F@gmail.com>

Hello. I want to go to conducting school in salt lake that a choir teacher recommended but I remember not what it was. Can someone refresh my memory and let me know how the disability services are over there? I want ot get my application in early for fall of next year.

Take care.

Sarah Alawami
MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com 
aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:

website: http://music.marrie.org
face book: facebook.com/marrie
youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/

The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live. 



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Mon Nov 15 21:04:54 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:04:54 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Question concerning slates and styli
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikJxMyrAn6AdZUCAC2W0ssRijuti9c1bxafDdqj@mail.gmail.com>
References: <04557FDE2466429989B48DAFF8B863F6@Espy>
	<AANLkTikJxMyrAn6AdZUCAC2W0ssRijuti9c1bxafDdqj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1BE00A22-5CFD-442F-95D5-FB25EC639A28@mac.com>

Jewel:
Just wondering, what's the saddle styli?
Is that the one that has one flat side at the top?



On Nov 15, 2010, at 3:13 PM, Jewel S. wrote:

> My personal preferences:
> 1. Pins on the bottom if it's a regular slate (20-30 cells). This is
> because it makes lining the paper up easier, something I have trouble
> with. If the pins are on the bottom, I can push the pins through the
> paper before lowering the top. Of course, I guess you could do that
> with a top-pin slate. The advantage of a top-pin slate is that you can
> read the Braille without removing the paper from the pins, by opening
> the slate and reading underneath the top. I'm not good at this, and
> don't find it easy, but some do.
> 2. I use a Jannus (sp?) slate a lot more than a regular slate. This is
> an interpoint index card slate. I carry this slate, a stylus, and a
> box of index cards (a plastic one with snaps bought at the bookstore),
> and I'm good to go if I need to take a note. Big plus is that you
> slide the index card in from the side and there are no pins.
> Disadvantage, sometimes the index card slides a little, so you gotta
> hold the end if that happens, so your Braille isn't skewed. I like to
> leave a card in the slate so I can just whip it out with the stylus
> and I'm good to go.
> 3. If I'm doing a long letter or lots of writing, like for an essay, I
> prefer a full-page slate. This allows me to write without the skew
> that inevitably happens when I move the slate down (I'm bad at
> alignment). I can also do pretty decent Braille pictures on a full
> Braille slate that would be skewed a lot using a four-line slate.
> 4. Styli do matter! I much prefer the round stylus because the saddle
> stylus hurts my finger joints, but most people like the saddle stylus.
> There are other styli out there (like the pen stylus, which I do *not*
> recommend), but the saddle and round styli are the most popular.
> 5. Reading the Slate Book is a great way to get back in practice with
> the slate and stylus. It's available from Bookshare, or you can order
> it in Braille, I think from APH?
> 
> Hope that helps! And I'm going to be a TVI also. Where are you doing
> your Graduate work?
> 
> On 11/14/10, Hope Paulos <hope.paulos at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi there. I haven't used a slate and stylus for a very long time. Can
>> someone recommend a good type of slate and the difference from having the
>> pins on the top and the bottome? Which type of stylus do you prefer and why?
>> I have to get one because am going back for my masters to become a TbVI.
>> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>> Thanks.
>> Hope Paulos
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 21:30:39 2010
From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:30:39 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] a university in saltlake
In-Reply-To: <1DA3BFCF-43FF-4118-8D51-F29DCA03582F@gmail.com>
References: <1DA3BFCF-43FF-4118-8D51-F29DCA03582F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimgx8szHOfwR-+WRwo+v9qMwAKXZvxPrF0mZi7s@mail.gmail.com>

Sarah,
  The colleges in Salt Lake, that I know of, are the University of
Utah and Westminster College.  There's also Salt Lake Community
College and BYU does some classes up there.  Any of those ring a bell?
  Also, I'm at BYU in Provo and I've heard a lot of good things about
the music program down here.  We're like 45 minutes away from Salt
Lake.  But I've heard a lot about the Westminster and Utah choirs
also.
  Let me know if that helps,
Kirt

On 11/15/10, Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello. I want to go to conducting school in salt lake that a choir teacher
> recommended but I remember not what it was. Can someone refresh my memory
> and let me know how the disability services are over there? I want ot get my
> application in early for fall of next year.
>
> Take care.
>
> Sarah Alawami
> MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com
> aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:
>
> website: http://music.marrie.org
> face book: facebook.com/marrie
> youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
> Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
> Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/
>
> The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 21:30:00 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:30:00 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Question concerning slates and styli
In-Reply-To: <1BE00A22-5CFD-442F-95D5-FB25EC639A28@mac.com>
References: <04557FDE2466429989B48DAFF8B863F6@Espy>
	<AANLkTikJxMyrAn6AdZUCAC2W0ssRijuti9c1bxafDdqj@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BE00A22-5CFD-442F-95D5-FB25EC639A28@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=9CXhGev=37c-UmG+ODP6278cgKCJWS0v1-XtN@mail.gmail.com>

The saddle stylus is the one with the T at the top, with a curved,
lowered section in the middle. According to my former Braille
instructor, you're supposed to put your index card in the lower
portion and grip the rest with the thumb and middle finger. But with
my joint and nerve problems, leaving my finger in that position for as
long as it takes me to write just doesn't work.

Which stylus do you use? What are your thoughts on it versus other styli?

On 11/15/10, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
> Jewel:
> Just wondering, what's the saddle styli?
> Is that the one that has one flat side at the top?
>
>
>
> On Nov 15, 2010, at 3:13 PM, Jewel S. wrote:
>
>> My personal preferences:
>> 1. Pins on the bottom if it's a regular slate (20-30 cells). This is
>> because it makes lining the paper up easier, something I have trouble
>> with. If the pins are on the bottom, I can push the pins through the
>> paper before lowering the top. Of course, I guess you could do that
>> with a top-pin slate. The advantage of a top-pin slate is that you can
>> read the Braille without removing the paper from the pins, by opening
>> the slate and reading underneath the top. I'm not good at this, and
>> don't find it easy, but some do.
>> 2. I use a Jannus (sp?) slate a lot more than a regular slate. This is
>> an interpoint index card slate. I carry this slate, a stylus, and a
>> box of index cards (a plastic one with snaps bought at the bookstore),
>> and I'm good to go if I need to take a note. Big plus is that you
>> slide the index card in from the side and there are no pins.
>> Disadvantage, sometimes the index card slides a little, so you gotta
>> hold the end if that happens, so your Braille isn't skewed. I like to
>> leave a card in the slate so I can just whip it out with the stylus
>> and I'm good to go.
>> 3. If I'm doing a long letter or lots of writing, like for an essay, I
>> prefer a full-page slate. This allows me to write without the skew
>> that inevitably happens when I move the slate down (I'm bad at
>> alignment). I can also do pretty decent Braille pictures on a full
>> Braille slate that would be skewed a lot using a four-line slate.
>> 4. Styli do matter! I much prefer the round stylus because the saddle
>> stylus hurts my finger joints, but most people like the saddle stylus.
>> There are other styli out there (like the pen stylus, which I do *not*
>> recommend), but the saddle and round styli are the most popular.
>> 5. Reading the Slate Book is a great way to get back in practice with
>> the slate and stylus. It's available from Bookshare, or you can order
>> it in Braille, I think from APH?
>>
>> Hope that helps! And I'm going to be a TVI also. Where are you doing
>> your Graduate work?
>>
>> On 11/14/10, Hope Paulos <hope.paulos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi there. I haven't used a slate and stylus for a very long time. Can
>>> someone recommend a good type of slate and the difference from having the
>>> pins on the top and the bottome? Which type of stylus do you prefer and
>>> why?
>>> I have to get one because am going back for my masters to become a TbVI.
>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>>> Thanks.
>>> Hope Paulos
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 21:35:31 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:35:31 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Moodle and JAWS
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=U=oQRxu9YKZmvc3oeWbw_Bk_5YphJyBBs61B7@mail.gmail.com>

Hey guys,
does anyone know anything about the accessibility of Moodle? I met
with two of my professors for next semester, and one of them told me
she uses Moodle instead of Blackboard. I told her I'd let her know
what I found on accessibility and if there were going to be any
issues, as neither of us had any idea about how Moodle functions with
JAWS. For a bonus, I'd also love to know how it does with NVDA.

Thanks in advance!

-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Mon Nov 15 21:41:42 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 16:41:42 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Question concerning slates and styli
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=9CXhGev=37c-UmG+ODP6278cgKCJWS0v1-XtN@mail.gmail.com>
References: <04557FDE2466429989B48DAFF8B863F6@Espy>
	<AANLkTikJxMyrAn6AdZUCAC2W0ssRijuti9c1bxafDdqj@mail.gmail.com>
	<1BE00A22-5CFD-442F-95D5-FB25EC639A28@mac.com>
	<AANLkTi=9CXhGev=37c-UmG+ODP6278cgKCJWS0v1-XtN@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F405F1DD-D40E-4E07-ACF6-3623D3E2AAAD@mac.com>

I don't use a stylus and slate that often.
However, I think I'm quite a lot better at the index-card then the line slate.

As far as the stylus goes, I've only ever seen and used the round one, so that's the one I like.
But like I said, I've never heard of or used any of the others you talk about, so can't say.

Jorge



On Nov 15, 2010, at 4:30 PM, Jewel S. wrote:

> The saddle stylus is the one with the T at the top, with a curved,
> lowered section in the middle. According to my former Braille
> instructor, you're supposed to put your index card in the lower
> portion and grip the rest with the thumb and middle finger. But with
> my joint and nerve problems, leaving my finger in that position for as
> long as it takes me to write just doesn't work.
> 
> Which stylus do you use? What are your thoughts on it versus other styli?
> 
> On 11/15/10, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
>> Jewel:
>> Just wondering, what's the saddle styli?
>> Is that the one that has one flat side at the top?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 15, 2010, at 3:13 PM, Jewel S. wrote:
>> 
>>> My personal preferences:
>>> 1. Pins on the bottom if it's a regular slate (20-30 cells). This is
>>> because it makes lining the paper up easier, something I have trouble
>>> with. If the pins are on the bottom, I can push the pins through the
>>> paper before lowering the top. Of course, I guess you could do that
>>> with a top-pin slate. The advantage of a top-pin slate is that you can
>>> read the Braille without removing the paper from the pins, by opening
>>> the slate and reading underneath the top. I'm not good at this, and
>>> don't find it easy, but some do.
>>> 2. I use a Jannus (sp?) slate a lot more than a regular slate. This is
>>> an interpoint index card slate. I carry this slate, a stylus, and a
>>> box of index cards (a plastic one with snaps bought at the bookstore),
>>> and I'm good to go if I need to take a note. Big plus is that you
>>> slide the index card in from the side and there are no pins.
>>> Disadvantage, sometimes the index card slides a little, so you gotta
>>> hold the end if that happens, so your Braille isn't skewed. I like to
>>> leave a card in the slate so I can just whip it out with the stylus
>>> and I'm good to go.
>>> 3. If I'm doing a long letter or lots of writing, like for an essay, I
>>> prefer a full-page slate. This allows me to write without the skew
>>> that inevitably happens when I move the slate down (I'm bad at
>>> alignment). I can also do pretty decent Braille pictures on a full
>>> Braille slate that would be skewed a lot using a four-line slate.
>>> 4. Styli do matter! I much prefer the round stylus because the saddle
>>> stylus hurts my finger joints, but most people like the saddle stylus.
>>> There are other styli out there (like the pen stylus, which I do *not*
>>> recommend), but the saddle and round styli are the most popular.
>>> 5. Reading the Slate Book is a great way to get back in practice with
>>> the slate and stylus. It's available from Bookshare, or you can order
>>> it in Braille, I think from APH?
>>> 
>>> Hope that helps! And I'm going to be a TVI also. Where are you doing
>>> your Graduate work?
>>> 
>>> On 11/14/10, Hope Paulos <hope.paulos at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi there. I haven't used a slate and stylus for a very long time. Can
>>>> someone recommend a good type of slate and the difference from having the
>>>> pins on the top and the bottome? Which type of stylus do you prefer and
>>>> why?
>>>> I have to get one because am going back for my masters to become a TbVI.
>>>> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>>>> Thanks.
>>>> Hope Paulos
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> ~Jewel
>>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From mworkman.lists at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 21:50:23 2010
From: mworkman.lists at gmail.com (Marc Workman)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:50:23 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Moodle and JAWS
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=U=oQRxu9YKZmvc3oeWbw_Bk_5YphJyBBs61B7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=U=oQRxu9YKZmvc3oeWbw_Bk_5YphJyBBs61B7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3F2B8A1B126249159457F2CF9C0EFD04@MarcPC>

I've used Moodle for several courses, and I haven't run into any problems. 
I've been able to download assignments, can't recall if I've submitted them 
through Moodle, but I can read forum posts and reply to them as well.  I 
haven't had a huge amount of experience with Moodle, but as far as I can 
tell, it is quite accessible when using Jaws.  Can't comment on the 
accessibility with NVDA.

Best,

Marc
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 2:35 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Moodle and JAWS


> Hey guys,
> does anyone know anything about the accessibility of Moodle? I met
> with two of my professors for next semester, and one of them told me
> she uses Moodle instead of Blackboard. I told her I'd let her know
> what I found on accessibility and if there were going to be any
> issues, as neither of us had any idea about how Moodle functions with
> JAWS. For a bonus, I'd also love to know how it does with NVDA.
>
> Thanks in advance!
>
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mworkman.lists%40gmail.com 



From lilrichie411 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 21:57:11 2010
From: lilrichie411 at gmail.com (Jordan Richardson)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 15:57:11 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Moodle and JAWS
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=U=oQRxu9YKZmvc3oeWbw_Bk_5YphJyBBs61B7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=U=oQRxu9YKZmvc3oeWbw_Bk_5YphJyBBs61B7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1DCE8856-A645-4541-BEC1-C6D1FF8F4ED9@gmail.com>

From my experience JAWS Moodle work fine together.  You just to make sure your pop up blocker is off.

Jordan
mnabs president

Sent from my iPod

On 15 Nov 2010, at 15:35, "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey guys,
> does anyone know anything about the accessibility of Moodle? I met
> with two of my professors for next semester, and one of them told me
> she uses Moodle instead of Blackboard. I told her I'd let her know
> what I found on accessibility and if there were going to be any
> issues, as neither of us had any idea about how Moodle functions with
> JAWS. For a bonus, I'd also love to know how it does with NVDA.
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> -- 
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilrichie411%40gmail.com



From marrie12 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 22:20:43 2010
From: marrie12 at gmail.com (Sarah Alawami)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 14:20:43 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] a university in saltlake
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimgx8szHOfwR-+WRwo+v9qMwAKXZvxPrF0mZi7s@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1DA3BFCF-43FF-4118-8D51-F29DCA03582F@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimgx8szHOfwR-+WRwo+v9qMwAKXZvxPrF0mZi7s@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D6D8BC12-7700-4699-88A5-F2437D03340D@gmail.com>

Yeah that first one rings a bell. Ill have to check with my choir teacher  as right now my mind is drawing a blank. lol!
On Nov 15, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:

> Sarah,
>  The colleges in Salt Lake, that I know of, are the University of
> Utah and Westminster College.  There's also Salt Lake Community
> College and BYU does some classes up there.  Any of those ring a bell?
>  Also, I'm at BYU in Provo and I've heard a lot of good things about
> the music program down here.  We're like 45 minutes away from Salt
> Lake.  But I've heard a lot about the Westminster and Utah choirs
> also.
>  Let me know if that helps,
> Kirt
> 
> On 11/15/10, Sarah Alawami <marrie12 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello. I want to go to conducting school in salt lake that a choir teacher
>> recommended but I remember not what it was. Can someone refresh my memory
>> and let me know how the disability services are over there? I want ot get my
>> application in early for fall of next year.
>> 
>> Take care.
>> 
>> Sarah Alawami
>> MSN: marrie12 at gmail.com
>> aim: marrie12 at gmail.com:
>> 
>> website: http://music.marrie.org
>> face book: facebook.com/marrie
>> youtube: http://youtube.com/marrie125
>> Podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com
>> Mobile site for podcast: http://marrie.podbean.com/mobile/
>> 
>> The early bird gets the worm. The late worm gets to live.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marrie12%40gmail.com



From jty727 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 15 22:33:46 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 17:33:46 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Moodle and JAWS
In-Reply-To: <1DCE8856-A645-4541-BEC1-C6D1FF8F4ED9@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=U=oQRxu9YKZmvc3oeWbw_Bk_5YphJyBBs61B7@mail.gmail.com>
	<1DCE8856-A645-4541-BEC1-C6D1FF8F4ED9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinhYW2-J5yP7ovhk_yCdW1FJ2eNR9Ei3+5mX3qo@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Jewel,
I use Moodle for my courses and it works fine with JAWS.  I personally
think it works better than Blackboard.  I don't know about the other
part of your question.

On 11/15/10, Jordan Richardson <lilrichie411 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >From my experience JAWS Moodle work fine together.  You just to make sure
> your pop up blocker is off.
>
> Jordan
> mnabs president
>
> Sent from my iPod
>
> On 15 Nov 2010, at 15:35, "Jewel S." <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey guys,
>> does anyone know anything about the accessibility of Moodle? I met
>> with two of my professors for next semester, and one of them told me
>> she uses Moodle instead of Blackboard. I told her I'd let her know
>> what I found on accessibility and if there were going to be any
>> issues, as neither of us had any idea about how Moodle functions with
>> JAWS. For a bonus, I'd also love to know how it does with NVDA.
>>
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> --
>> ~Jewel
>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilrichie411%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 16 16:10:43 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 11:10:43 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] accessibility of blackboard
Message-ID: <AB8CB6FA1EF04E8996F5B8A910928406@Ashley>

Hi All,

Is Blackboard more accessible now?  What about the discussion boards?  In the past I could not write on the board and post my assignments because I could not find the button with jaws. I'll be taking an online class or two that uses black board and hope there's no access issues.

I use jaws.

Ashley

From skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 16 16:33:42 2010
From: skittlesfreak69 at gmail.com (Karrie Kinstetter)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 10:33:42 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] accessibility of blackboard
In-Reply-To: <AB8CB6FA1EF04E8996F5B8A910928406@Ashley>
References: <AB8CB6FA1EF04E8996F5B8A910928406@Ashley>
Message-ID: <C288E90E034345DA87D7421CCAABF597@kerrie025e8776>

I'm not sure about the discussion boards, but I do use jaws, and blackboard 
is pretty accessible


--------------------------------------------------
From: <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 10:10 AM
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Subject: [nabs-l] accessibility of blackboard

> Hi All,
>
> Is Blackboard more accessible now?  What about the discussion boards?  In 
> the past I could not write on the board and post my assignments because I 
> could not find the button with jaws. I'll be taking an online class or two 
> that uses black board and hope there's no access issues.
>
> I use jaws.
>
> Ashley
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/skittlesfreak69%40gmail.com
>
> __________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus 
> signature database 5576 (20101029) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
> 

__________ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 5576 (20101029) __________

The message was checked by ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com





From anjelinac26 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 17 01:53:35 2010
From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 20:53:35 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Using disabilities office
Message-ID: <85BBEB20A65D4E5E9801C4FE229D7658@D9P3ZND1>

Is it mandatory a blind student use the disabilities services office on their campus? I once had a professor tell me she could not provide accommodations without a certified letter from the ds office. What are our rights as students?

Anjelina
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
Albert Einstein

From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Wed Nov 17 06:56:07 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 22:56:07 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Using disabilities office
In-Reply-To: <85BBEB20A65D4E5E9801C4FE229D7658@D9P3ZND1>
References: <85BBEB20A65D4E5E9801C4FE229D7658@D9P3ZND1>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=8XpSRm3xLLwnpb3JuNGXXW435hvCCW7Jwuujx@mail.gmail.com>

It has always been my expirience that  instructors are required to
provide some sort of  accomidation to   students with disabilities.
However,  in order for this to take place, they need documentation
stating that the person is indeed disabled.  I don't know your
situation, so i am not really in much a position to comment further.
  Hope this helps
  darian

On 11/16/10, Anjelina <anjelinac26 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Is it mandatory a blind student use the disabilities services office on
> their campus? I once had a professor tell me she could not provide
> accommodations without a certified letter from the ds office. What are our
> rights as students?
>
> Anjelina
> Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
> Albert Einstein
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From dandrews at visi.com  Wed Nov 17 10:06:08 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 04:06:08 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] accessibility of blackboard
In-Reply-To: <AB8CB6FA1EF04E8996F5B8A910928406@Ashley>
References: <AB8CB6FA1EF04E8996F5B8A910928406@Ashley>
Message-ID: <auto-000178322625@mailfront2.g2host.com>

It was announced this past summer, at NFB Convention that Version 9.1 
of Blackboard was fully accessible.  I would guess you would also 
need a recent version of your screen reader to have the most success.

Dave

At 10:10 AM 11/16/2010, you wrote:
>Hi All,
>
>Is Blackboard more accessible now?  What about the discussion 
>boards?  In the past I could not write on the board and post my 
>assignments because I could not find the button with jaws. I'll be 
>taking an online class or two that uses black board and hope there's 
>no access issues.
>
>I use jaws.



From agrima at nbp.org  Wed Nov 17 14:11:12 2010
From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 09:11:12 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] NBP's Annual Holiday Sale and Gift Ideas!
Message-ID: <A875C4FCA19942C883049A0CA2B77E64@nbp2.local>

Jump on the holidays - save time and money - with National Braille
Press's annual holiday kids' book sale!

Order three books form the list below, get the fourth one FREE!
Order two books from this list, get the third one for half-price!
(As always, we apply the discount/free book to the most expensive book
in the bunch.)

Sale expires December 31, 2010.
Order soon - these books are in very limited supply and last year we
sold out very quickly!

See the list below, or read descriptions of the books - and see more
gift ideas, including print/braille magnets and new jewelry - at:
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/holidaysale.html


Books included in the sale:

- Llama Llama Red Pajama, $16.99
- Dad, Jackie and Me, $16.95
- Helen Keller: The World in her Heart, $16.99
- Piano Starts Here, $16.99
- If I Ran for President, $6.99
- Madeline, $7.99
- Fly High, Fly Low, $7.99
- In a Dark Dark Room, $5.00
- Mike Mulligan and his Steam Shovel, $9.99
- Froggy Eats Out, $5.99
- In the Tall, Tall Grass, $7.99
- Hailstones and Halibut Bones, $9.95
- It's Mine!, $6.99
- Little Red Riding Hood, $12.99
- Picture Book of Florence Nightingale, $6.95
- One of Each, $7.99


Note: The following items are NOT part of the sale - but they make
delightful gifts!

- Just a Snowy Day, $8.99
- Braille Caravan, $30.00
- Noah's Animals (Tactile Set), $28.00
- Chunky Puzzle: Shapes, $9.99
- Madeline Plush Doll, $9.95
- A Wish for Wings that Work: An Opus Christmas Story, $7.99

We encourage telephone orders. You can order online, but you'll need to
call or email us for your free book. 
Call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. 
Or order by mail - send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston,
MA 02115-4302
Email: orders at nbp.org




From carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com  Wed Nov 17 16:17:17 2010
From: carroll.kathryn.e at gmail.com (Kate Carroll)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 11:17:17 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Using disabilities office
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=8XpSRm3xLLwnpb3JuNGXXW435hvCCW7Jwuujx@mail.gmail.com>
References: <85BBEB20A65D4E5E9801C4FE229D7658@D9P3ZND1>
	<AANLkTi=8XpSRm3xLLwnpb3JuNGXXW435hvCCW7Jwuujx@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=djh-4m5-=CsM-75EQuq-huaGSPQBU9ji62fVf@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

It is my experience that instructors must provide accommodations if you are
registered with the DSS office. You can approach them individually without
having registered, and they might be receptive to giving accommodations, but
that is a subjective matter and they are not required to. Like Darian says,
they need documentation.

Kate

On Wed, Nov 17, 2010 at 1:56 AM, Darian Smith <dsmithnfb at gmail.com> wrote:

> It has always been my expirience that  instructors are required to
> provide some sort of  accomidation to   students with disabilities.
> However,  in order for this to take place, they need documentation
> stating that the person is indeed disabled.  I don't know your
> situation, so i am not really in much a position to comment further.
>  Hope this helps
>  darian
>
> On 11/16/10, Anjelina <anjelinac26 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is it mandatory a blind student use the disabilities services office on
> > their campus? I once had a professor tell me she could not provide
> > accommodations without a certified letter from the ds office. What are
> our
> > rights as students?
> >
> > Anjelina
> > Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.
> > Albert Einstein
> > _______________________________________________
> > nabs-l mailing list
> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> > nabs-l:
> >
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
> >
>
>
> --
> Darian Smith
> Skype: The_Blind_Truth
> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace
>
>
> “We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
> spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
>
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/carroll.kathryn.e%40gmail.com
>



-- 
Kathryn CARROLL
St. John's University College of Law 2013
631-521-3018

From kimthurman at insightbb.com  Wed Nov 17 17:53:40 2010
From: kimthurman at insightbb.com (Kimberly thurman)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 12:53:40 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] To Kerry:  The football game.
Message-ID: <72455E45-C65C-46D6-9F6D-ECC7AC3B72A8@insightbb.com>

Hi Kerry and all:

I was just curious what happened Saturday at the game?  Unless you found the love of your life and ran off on a spur of the moment Cancun vacation.  If so that's alright too.  *smiles*

From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Wed Nov 17 18:35:20 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 10:35:20 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Nabs Conference call: Cane Vs. Guide dog: the Pros and Cons
Message-ID: <AANLkTinSoy=nsUziRmoK8P+87ajtTHovpWeyy_96gc3x@mail.gmail.com>

Hello fellow students,

The time has come once again for another NABS conference call! This month,
the topic is orientation and mobility, specifically canes versus dog guides.
Are you a new cane user who is interested in the benefits of traveling with
a cane? Are you a seasoned cane user who is interested in what traveling
with a dog guide entails? Are you a dog guide user interested in what other
travelers experience with their dogs or canes? We will have two student
guests speakers, one from each perspective, to share their
experiences. Come one, come all, and bring your stories and questions
to this informative event!

When: Sunday, November 21, 2010.
Time: 7:00PM EST.
Where: The NABS Conference Line: (712) 775-7100 Code: 257963#.

See all on the call!

NABS Membership Committee


-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Wed Nov 17 18:39:36 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 10:39:36 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] To Kerry: The football game.
In-Reply-To: <72455E45-C65C-46D6-9F6D-ECC7AC3B72A8@insightbb.com>
References: <72455E45-C65C-46D6-9F6D-ECC7AC3B72A8@insightbb.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimzfDAT+u_qb9aa9tmov9n+mukr7R6Q7yFe4cwk@mail.gmail.com>

Kimberley and list,
  finding the love one one's life?  that truley unique lol.  Well,
all this attention to  what Kerri did, make me wonder if that
shouldn't be a  nabs conference call topic? *smile*" Nabs conference
call: What  kerri did at the football game?" *smile*  best,
  Darian

On 11/17/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
> Hi Kerry and all:
>
> I was just curious what happened Saturday at the game?  Unless you found the
> love of your life and ran off on a spur of the moment Cancun vacation.  If
> so that's alright too.  *smiles*
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From brice.smith319 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 17 19:28:43 2010
From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 14:28:43 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs?
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=hRahM-6WOff0RZ5V_cikMYh-_eciMj+sL-KzU@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Has anyone here used Google Docs to manage documents, presentations,
or spreadsheets, and how accessible are they?

My University has partnered with Google which gives all students easy
access to many of Google's services, and I'm finding that both small
groups and professors are using Google Docs more and more. I've heard
that some of Google's offerings aren't screen-reader friendly. Does
anyone have experience using Google Docs?


-- 
Brice Smith
North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
(919) 637-1028


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Wed Nov 17 19:35:11 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 14:35:11 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=hRahM-6WOff0RZ5V_cikMYh-_eciMj+sL-KzU@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=hRahM-6WOff0RZ5V_cikMYh-_eciMj+sL-KzU@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9C27C778700640C2893BCBD51A1E42C9@Rufus>

Me thinks there's another NFB lawsuit in the works?  I put that out there
with an air of sarcasm, but I actually think this is something the NFB
should have started working on a while ago.  It's a platform that not only
impacts students but the professional world as well, especially if Microsoft
and other major players are moving more and more toward cloud computing.

To answer your question, OffiSync is one work-around.  You'll find it,
ironically, by Googling it, though it might be its own domain.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 2:29 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs?

Hi,

Has anyone here used Google Docs to manage documents, presentations,
or spreadsheets, and how accessible are they?

My University has partnered with Google which gives all students easy
access to many of Google's services, and I'm finding that both small
groups and professors are using Google Docs more and more. I've heard
that some of Google's offerings aren't screen-reader friendly. Does
anyone have experience using Google Docs?


-- 
Brice Smith
North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
(919) 637-1028

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From alexandera.castillo at gmail.com  Wed Nov 17 21:11:37 2010
From: alexandera.castillo at gmail.com (Alexander Castillo)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 16:11:37 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Using disabilities service at your campus?
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=jBf5OPfLEcWSL0my_rx7sZVFXBFxDF94obNya@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all, one does not need to use their school's disability service or
disclose a disability to receive accommodations . Some students simply
sign up with their disability service just in case they do happen to
need proof of disability in order to be accommodated, and some  simply
speak to their professors and arrange accommodations without any
assistance from their disability office or disclosing at all.

Of course, if you decide to do this, a professor is not required to
accommodate you, especially if you do not have proof of disability
from the school's disability office.

So in short, you do not need to use these services to receive
accommodations, but if you do not use them,  accommodations are then
up to whatever your teacher and you can work out, and you can be
refused possibly without legal recourse.

Anjelina, I believe your professor was right, and she probably have
had a good reason to refuse your requests without some legal document
which let her know it was OK  to  receive accommodations. I have had
professors let me walk out of the testing room with an exam on testing
day, with the intent to scan it, answer the questions and  bring the
exam back whenever I should happen to finish; without any testing
accommodation forms; but this was their choice, and at no point could
I have complained if they had asked me for proper documentation.

Thanks for reading,
Alex


From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 17 23:11:03 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 18:11:03 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] accessibility of blackboard
In-Reply-To: <auto-000178322625@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <AB8CB6FA1EF04E8996F5B8A910928406@Ashley>
	<auto-000178322625@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=70aweje=jVPgRFK6yCZx3J_VdhK_y0OMhjVGB@mail.gmail.com>

I tried to use the discussion boards on Blackboard 9.1 (using JAWS
11), and could not post. I could read others' posts, but there was
literally no edit box for my post for me to post a reply or my own
topic. I don't know if this was just me, but I found it very
problematic. The chat is also not accessible, if I remember right.

Everything else, as far as I saw, was fully accessible. Grades,
handouts, quizzes (taking a quiz on Blackboard is easy!), and so on.

Not all schools have updated to Blackboard 9.1, however, so check
which version your school has and encourage them to update if they
don't have 9.1, the most accessible version.

On 11/17/10, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
> It was announced this past summer, at NFB Convention that Version 9.1
> of Blackboard was fully accessible.  I would guess you would also
> need a recent version of your screen reader to have the most success.
>
> Dave
>
> At 10:10 AM 11/16/2010, you wrote:
>>Hi All,
>>
>>Is Blackboard more accessible now?  What about the discussion
>>boards?  In the past I could not write on the board and post my
>>assignments because I could not find the button with jaws. I'll be
>>taking an online class or two that uses black board and hope there's
>>no access issues.
>>
>>I use jaws.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From clb5590 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 17 23:20:49 2010
From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 18:20:49 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] accessibility of blackboard
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=70aweje=jVPgRFK6yCZx3J_VdhK_y0OMhjVGB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AB8CB6FA1EF04E8996F5B8A910928406@Ashley>
	<auto-000178322625@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<AANLkTi=70aweje=jVPgRFK6yCZx3J_VdhK_y0OMhjVGB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimxXDfffmEwXY47LNR1VGAf8b5Y01cfq2Ju=DBn@mail.gmail.com>

Ok, here's what i discovered about the discussions. There should be a
link, create printable view, and that allowed me to read the
discussion topics for some reason.

Cindy

On 11/17/10, Jewel S. <herekittykat2 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I tried to use the discussion boards on Blackboard 9.1 (using JAWS
> 11), and could not post. I could read others' posts, but there was
> literally no edit box for my post for me to post a reply or my own
> topic. I don't know if this was just me, but I found it very
> problematic. The chat is also not accessible, if I remember right.
>
> Everything else, as far as I saw, was fully accessible. Grades,
> handouts, quizzes (taking a quiz on Blackboard is easy!), and so on.
>
> Not all schools have updated to Blackboard 9.1, however, so check
> which version your school has and encourage them to update if they
> don't have 9.1, the most accessible version.
>
> On 11/17/10, David Andrews <dandrews at visi.com> wrote:
>> It was announced this past summer, at NFB Convention that Version 9.1
>> of Blackboard was fully accessible.  I would guess you would also
>> need a recent version of your screen reader to have the most success.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 10:10 AM 11/16/2010, you wrote:
>>>Hi All,
>>>
>>>Is Blackboard more accessible now?  What about the discussion
>>>boards?  In the past I could not write on the board and post my
>>>assignments because I could not find the button with jaws. I'll be
>>>taking an online class or two that uses black board and hope there's
>>>no access issues.
>>>
>>>I use jaws.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> --
> ~Jewel
> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Cindy Bennett
uNC Wilmington Psychology major

clb5590 at gmail.com
828.989.5383


From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Thu Nov 18 01:46:01 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 20:46:01 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Using disabilities service at your campus?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=jBf5OPfLEcWSL0my_rx7sZVFXBFxDF94obNya@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=jBf5OPfLEcWSL0my_rx7sZVFXBFxDF94obNya@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DFFE7F7D-9944-4FDB-8C56-EF7CEA12961E@gmail.com>

This is exactly right. It is always a good idea to sign up with the DSS in case you run into problems, but many times professors are willing to provide reasonable accommodations especially if they can see that you are obviously blind. Of course if you request something that they don't find reasonable, you will have to talk to the DSS office if you are actually entitled to that particular accommodation.

IC
On Nov 17, 2010, at 4:11 PM, Alexander Castillo wrote:

> Hi all, one does not need to use their school's disability service or
> disclose a disability to receive accommodations . Some students simply
> sign up with their disability service just in case they do happen to
> need proof of disability in order to be accommodated, and some  simply
> speak to their professors and arrange accommodations without any
> assistance from their disability office or disclosing at all.
> 
> Of course, if you decide to do this, a professor is not required to
> accommodate you, especially if you do not have proof of disability
> from the school's disability office.
> 
> So in short, you do not need to use these services to receive
> accommodations, but if you do not use them,  accommodations are then
> up to whatever your teacher and you can work out, and you can be
> refused possibly without legal recourse.
> 
> Anjelina, I believe your professor was right, and she probably have
> had a good reason to refuse your requests without some legal document
> which let her know it was OK  to  receive accommodations. I have had
> professors let me walk out of the testing room with an exam on testing
> day, with the intent to scan it, answer the questions and  bring the
> exam back whenever I should happen to finish; without any testing
> accommodation forms; but this was their choice, and at no point could
> I have complained if they had asked me for proper documentation.
> 
> Thanks for reading,
> Alex
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From pfischer at accessibility.net  Thu Nov 18 09:34:02 2010
From: pfischer at accessibility.net (Pat Fischer)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 03:34:02 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Used and New Equipment
Message-ID: <auto-000178510856@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Good morning David,

This is Pat Fischer with Accessibility.net and I wanted to pass on 
some great deals I have in case you know anybody interested in 
these:  I have some over stock new items which are great deals and 
then a braille sense QT that is one year old for only 
$2800.00.  These are all first come first serve as I just have one.

1              Braille sense QT 32 (one year 
old) 
$2800.00
1              Pac mate Omni WX440 with 40-cell Braille display (3 
years old)                     $1200.00
1              Victor Reader stream with 2G SD card (new in 
box)                                          $299.00
1              Intel Reader (new in 
box) 
$870.00
1              Enhanced vision Pebble hard held magnifier 4.3" LCD 
(new in box)           $495.00

Please let me know if you have any questions.


Thank you for your support,

Pat Fischer
CEO

Corporate Office
Accessibility dot Net, Inc.
11110 Fort St., Suite 103
Omaha, NE  68164
Local: 402-491-3191
Direct: 402-699-4357
Toll Free: 866-539-4357
Fax: 402-491-3221
Web: <http://www.accessibility.net>www.accessibility.net

Technology Solutions for the Blind and Visually Impaired



From: David Andrews [mailto:dandrews at visi.com]
Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2010 8:39 PM
To: pfischer at accessibility.net
Subject: Re: referred by Curtis Chong

Are you asking me if I will post your messages to some of our 
lists?  Or, something else?

Dave

At 04:05 PM 6/1/2010, you wrote:

Good afternoon Dave,

My name is Pat Fischer and I was given your name by Curtis Chong as 
he said you are someone to tell about great prices on over-stock and 
used technology.  As a reseller of all the major brands I often have 
over stock or an item that someone returned after a few days.  I also 
always have used products.

As an example, right now I have a KNFB Mobile reader with a Nokia N86 
phone that is new and never registered that I want a $1000 for.  I 
also have new victor streams for $329.00 and new Pebble hand-held 
video magnifiers for $415.00.

I have other items and if you are interested in knowing more about 
the products I have I will be glad to share those with you.

Please let me know if you are interested in talking more about 
this.  My direct number is 402-699-4357 and you can call me any time.

Thank you for your support,

Pat Fischer
CEO

Corporate Office
Accessibility dot Net, Inc.
11110 Fort St., Suite 103
Omaha, NE  68164
Local: 402-491-3191
Direct: 402-699-4357
Toll Free: 866-539-4357
Fax: 402-491-3221
Web: <http://www.accessibility.net/>www.accessibility.net

Technology Solutions for the Blind and Visually Impaired




From kgilbride at dralegal.org  Thu Nov 18 19:56:02 2010
From: kgilbride at dralegal.org (Karla Gilbride)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 11:56:02 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Interested in speaking with blind law students
Message-ID: <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CE21508@draexchange.dralegal.com>

Apologies if you are receiving this message for a second time.
 
Please pass the following message along to any other listservs or
networks where it may reach blind law students or potential Bar takers.
 
Disability Rights Advocates is interested in speaking with students who
plan to take the Bar exam of any state within the next two to three
years. Whether you are a third-year law student preparing to take the
Bar in a few months or a 1l just beginning your studies, we would like
to talk with you about what accommodations you use in your law studies
and on law school exams and about what accommodations you intend to
request for the Bar exam. Please contact Karla Gilbride at
kgilbride at dralegal.org <blocked::mailto:kgilbride at dralegal.org>  or by
phone at 510-665-8644.
 
Thank you for helping us to better understand the needs of blind law
students.
 
Sincerely,
Karla Gilbride
 

 


Karla Gilbride 
Staff Attorney 
Disability Rights Advocates 
2001 Center Street, Third Floor 
Berkeley, California  94704-1204 

510-665-8644  ext. 117 (Tel) 
510-665-8716 (TTY) 
510-665-8511 (Fax) 
kgilbride at dralegal.org 

STATEMENT OF CONFIDENTIALITY 
The contents of this e-mail message and any attachments are confidential
and are intended solely for the addressee. This information may also be
legally privileged. This transmission is sent in trust, for the sole
purpose of delivery to the intended recipient. If you have received this
transmission in error, any use, reproduction or dissemination of this
transmission is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended
recipient, please immediately notify the sender by reply e-mail or at
(510) 665-8644 or (510) 665-8716 (TTY) and delete the message and its
attachments, if any.

 

From hope.paulos at gmail.com  Thu Nov 18 21:23:58 2010
From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 16:23:58 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] TBVI-- advice needed
Message-ID: <8944BD087B0A46BCA4AA4D7FA9EF8350@Espy>

Hi all. I'm totally blind and am going to receive my masters degree and become a TBVI. I'm wondering how a totally blind person can adapt a vision acuity chart to be able to use it with their students? I've never seen one, so don't know what they are, but I was told that I need to get one before I start coursework.
Amy help would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Hope Paulos

From valandkayla at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 01:45:13 2010
From: valandkayla at gmail.com (Valerie Gibson)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:45:13 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] oh highly amusing reguarding dog training
Message-ID: <F58ADC22-86F1-4616-BDF0-97568BDCC980@gmail.com>

So, as you know i'm interested in the dog training career.

The route that i'm taking is to go for a psych degree until i get certified to be a dog trainer and to give me something to do until i get a dog training business off of the ground. basically i'm playing safe.

I'm reading up on training, and speaking to dog trainers who are willing to think outside of the box so taht we, or I, an come up with alternative techniques, if any, in training dogs.
Well, now for my amusing bit of information, which may or may not mean anything, but something i found funny nevertheless.

The college that was so against training potential dog trainers has requested to follow me on twitter.

How they found me on twitter is a mystery to me. though my guess is they used an email search for people who have emailed them.

Anyway, just thought it  was funny.

I should follow them, then when i become a dog trainer,  go on about how i made it. XD

Hope you find this as amusing as I did.

From gpaikens at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 02:07:05 2010
From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 20:07:05 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction
Message-ID: <337951E2-E965-4DED-8C88-0517949DCE9B@gmail.com>

Hi all,
I just joined this list again and wanted to introduce myself.  My name is Greg and I am a master's student at Vanderbilt University in the program for teachers of children who are blind.  I just started the program in August and am loving it so far.  I look forward to connecting with other  students on here, especially grad students and others preparing to teach blind children.  

Also, I have been a student for quite a while now and so hopefully I have some wisdom to share with others.  I have a degree  from seminary and would be more than happy to talk to people interested in religious studies.  

Look forward to connecting with NABS. 

Greg

From jty727 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 02:24:13 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 21:24:13 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!
Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated


From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Fri Nov 19 02:38:47 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 18:38:47 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
References: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0286CDCA7D9E4ED9A064059C6E98CB92@stanford.edu>

Do you have Kurzweil?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:24 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX


> Hi All!
> Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
> I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
> read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From brice.smith319 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 02:40:01 2010
From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 21:40:01 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimgtLzgWJ+oxvKWS4bVB9-_z24w4N8hAngVigBj@mail.gmail.com>

You can save pdf files to text under the file menu. If the text is
just a scanned image however, jaws will read nothing and you will need
to use a program like omnipage to scan and convert the text. Printing
is not required.

Brice
On 11/18/10, Justin Young <jty727 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All!
> Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
> I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
> read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com


From jty727 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 03:00:44 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 22:00:44 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
In-Reply-To: <0286CDCA7D9E4ED9A064059C6E98CB92@stanford.edu>
References: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>
	<0286CDCA7D9E4ED9A064059C6E98CB92@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimq8NUYMhR3UdKJ1WbxcU-EBr7FNz5Sgo8eu2ap@mail.gmail.com>

Yes I have Kurzweil, but the problem is as soon as I try to scan some
of the pages which have hand written things it doesn't work.  When I
open the PDF file it says "alert empty document"  I tried the saving
as txt, but that doesn't read the document.  I open it and it just
says notepad.

On 11/18/10, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
> Do you have Kurzweil?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:24 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
>
>
>> Hi All!
>> Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
>> I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
>> read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Fri Nov 19 03:07:08 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:07:08 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
References: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimgtLzgWJ+oxvKWS4bVB9-_z24w4N8hAngVigBj@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A961BCE4D6EC4673B97C8F289B000DA3@stanford.edu>

That works if the text is correct. However, I have come across PDF's where 
what the text said and what was actually written were two *very* different 
things.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brice Smith" <brice.smith319 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX


> You can save pdf files to text under the file menu. If the text is
> just a scanned image however, jaws will read nothing and you will need
> to use a program like omnipage to scan and convert the text. Printing
> is not required.
>
> Brice
> On 11/18/10, Justin Young <jty727 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi All!
>> Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
>> I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
>> read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Fri Nov 19 03:08:41 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:08:41 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
References: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com><0286CDCA7D9E4ED9A064059C6E98CB92@stanford.edu>
	<AANLkTimq8NUYMhR3UdKJ1WbxcU-EBr7FNz5Sgo8eu2ap@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BECB3994BE9D4B0DB7741CC810F4E379@stanford.edu>

If printing and scanning or running it through the virtual printer do not 
work because it is hand writing, then I am afraid that the only option that 
will give accurate results is to have someone sighted retype it for you.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX


> Yes I have Kurzweil, but the problem is as soon as I try to scan some
> of the pages which have hand written things it doesn't work.  When I
> open the PDF file it says "alert empty document"  I tried the saving
> as txt, but that doesn't read the document.  I open it and it just
> says notepad.
>
> On 11/18/10, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
>> Do you have Kurzweil?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
>>
>>
>>> Hi All!
>>> Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
>>> I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
>>> read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From brice.smith319 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 03:09:10 2010
From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 22:09:10 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimq8NUYMhR3UdKJ1WbxcU-EBr7FNz5Sgo8eu2ap@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>
	<0286CDCA7D9E4ED9A064059C6E98CB92@stanford.edu>
	<AANLkTimq8NUYMhR3UdKJ1WbxcU-EBr7FNz5Sgo8eu2ap@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=RjUOoVws212UiHDAkmPTy9t7aFpGaFZ7cSYOc@mail.gmail.com>

The "empty document" means there is no text, just an image. You will
need to use an OCR program to try and recognize text. Hand written
text will not scan or be readable with Jaws.

Brice
On 11/18/10, Justin Young <jty727 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes I have Kurzweil, but the problem is as soon as I try to scan some
> of the pages which have hand written things it doesn't work.  When I
> open the PDF file it says "alert empty document"  I tried the saving
> as txt, but that doesn't read the document.  I open it and it just
> says notepad.
>
> On 11/18/10, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
>> Do you have Kurzweil?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
>>
>>
>>> Hi All!
>>> Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
>>> I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
>>> read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Brice Smith
North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
(919) 637-1028


From brice.smith319 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 03:23:04 2010
From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 22:23:04 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
In-Reply-To: <A961BCE4D6EC4673B97C8F289B000DA3@stanford.edu>
References: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimgtLzgWJ+oxvKWS4bVB9-_z24w4N8hAngVigBj@mail.gmail.com>
	<A961BCE4D6EC4673B97C8F289B000DA3@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=dsWWf49XGdmobUDz0dFU2W3FRA8h1to3C_vHp@mail.gmail.com>

Nicole,

I believe you're correct. The quality of an OCR scan depends entirely
on the quality of the original scanned image. Faded, marked, or
otherwise very poor scans will rarely turn into reliable text,
regardless of the OCR program.

Brice
On 11/18/10, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
> That works if the text is correct. However, I have come across PDF's where
> what the text said and what was actually written were two *very* different
> things.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Brice Smith" <brice.smith319 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
>
>
>> You can save pdf files to text under the file menu. If the text is
>> just a scanned image however, jaws will read nothing and you will need
>> to use a program like omnipage to scan and convert the text. Printing
>> is not required.
>>
>> Brice
>> On 11/18/10, Justin Young <jty727 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi All!
>>> Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
>>> I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
>>> read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Brice Smith
North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
(919) 637-1028


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Fri Nov 19 03:24:51 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 22:24:51 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimq8NUYMhR3UdKJ1WbxcU-EBr7FNz5Sgo8eu2ap@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>
	<0286CDCA7D9E4ED9A064059C6E98CB92@stanford.edu>
	<AANLkTimq8NUYMhR3UdKJ1WbxcU-EBr7FNz5Sgo8eu2ap@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B747CB1-8CE9-4838-B2BE-44ADBE921A71@mac.com>

Well,
its not gonna be able to read handwriting.
Do you have a KNFB Mobile or something like that?
May work a little better.

Jorge



On Nov 18, 2010, at 10:00 PM, Justin Young wrote:

> Yes I have Kurzweil, but the problem is as soon as I try to scan some
> of the pages which have hand written things it doesn't work.  When I
> open the PDF file it says "alert empty document"  I tried the saving
> as txt, but that doesn't read the document.  I open it and it just
> says notepad.
> 
> On 11/18/10, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
>> Do you have Kurzweil?
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:24 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
>> 
>> 
>>> Hi All!
>>> Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
>>> I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
>>> read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Fri Nov 19 03:33:58 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 19:33:58 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
References: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com><AANLkTimgtLzgWJ+oxvKWS4bVB9-_z24w4N8hAngVigBj@mail.gmail.com><A961BCE4D6EC4673B97C8F289B000DA3@stanford.edu>
	<AANLkTi=dsWWf49XGdmobUDz0dFU2W3FRA8h1to3C_vHp@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EB703386557A44CC8160237D0C0C04C5@stanford.edu>

Just for clarification, I was not talking about scanned text. I was talking 
about when you either save the PDF as text using the option on the file menu 
or copy and paste the text from the PDF directly.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brice Smith" <brice.smith319 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX


> Nicole,
>
> I believe you're correct. The quality of an OCR scan depends entirely
> on the quality of the original scanned image. Faded, marked, or
> otherwise very poor scans will rarely turn into reliable text,
> regardless of the OCR program.
>
> Brice
> On 11/18/10, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
>> That works if the text is correct. However, I have come across PDF's 
>> where
>> what the text said and what was actually written were two *very* 
>> different
>> things.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Brice Smith" <brice.smith319 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 6:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
>>
>>
>>> You can save pdf files to text under the file menu. If the text is
>>> just a scanned image however, jaws will read nothing and you will need
>>> to use a program like omnipage to scan and convert the text. Printing
>>> is not required.
>>>
>>> Brice
>>> On 11/18/10, Justin Young <jty727 at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi All!
>>>> Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
>>>> I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
>>>> read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Brice Smith
> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
> (919) 637-1028
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 04:36:43 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 23:36:43 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E9A4100B839E404C87E86F4A09515CA9@Rufus>

Justin,

I use a program called Click2Convert.  I think a few years ago it was
running for about ninety dollars, but it's helped me easily translate
between PDF, Doc, HTML and other formats from the virtual printer.

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 9:24 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX

Hi All!
Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From freethaught at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 06:19:28 2010
From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 01:19:28 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Cane versus dog, who's the winner
Message-ID: <43AF6C4B-3D88-42A0-AF81-61B507BBE33C@gmail.com>

Hello,

I just got the conference call anonuncement, and have a perspective of my own on the cane v. dog wuestion, some might call it an issue.

Why does it have to be a perspective on it anyway. Is one better than the other? Do these modes of mobility oppose one another? If not, then why the need to put one opposite the other as in the title of the call, cane v. dog guide?

I am not blaming the membership committee on the language used at all. I for one was a part of the committee, and for another I really don't think our membership can help it but to talk in adversarial terms of one versus the other.

It is a person's choice whether she or he uses a cane or dog. It's a matter of what the individual wants, and what the individual thinks it best. Often I see dog users try to convince others that a dog is so useful and great because...

Not unlike this group, there often is the other side that is quick to swear by the cane, and make the argument for why the cane is the better choice.

I just said "the other side". You see, some may not have even noticed the language used. I didn't mean to place the question in the light of one side and the other side.

I am a cane user but have also been on the other side, and I wonder why we tend to think of this as an us and them issue. Why?

Antonio Guimaraes





From jty727 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 07:05:58 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 02:05:58 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
In-Reply-To: <E9A4100B839E404C87E86F4A09515CA9@Rufus>
References: <AANLkTi=-Zc3Z9Rr95pWLPmeqe+GsW07_53+MeTd2fLfz@mail.gmail.com>
	<E9A4100B839E404C87E86F4A09515CA9@Rufus>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinJFdjvkb-aYvvnnKs1Ei029U3qhSU+7z+3N=V1@mail.gmail.com>

That definitely sounds like a great program Joe.  Where did you find
it?  I may look into getting that.

On 11/18/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> Justin,
>
> I use a program called Click2Convert.  I think a few years ago it was
> running for about ninety dollars, but it's helped me easily translate
> between PDF, Doc, HTML and other formats from the virtual printer.
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Justin Young
> Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2010 9:24 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: [nabs-l] Converting PDF to DOCX
>
> Hi All!
> Lately I've been having trouble with JAWS not reading the pdf files so
> I have to print them off and rescan them into the computer so I can
> read them.  Any help is greatly appreciated
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From marsha.drenth at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 16:01:23 2010
From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 11:01:23 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] featured in my college newspaper
Message-ID: <66DD9033DBA94E2C96C99DDDF7612C38@Cptr233>

HI Federationists,

 

Emma, my Seeing eye dog, and I were featured in my college newspaper.
Thought you all would enjoy reading. 

 

http://www.bucks.edu/~rogerst/vol%2047%20issue%204.pdf
<http://www.bucks.edu/%7Erogerst/vol%2047%20issue%204.pdf>  

 

marsha

 

PS Sorry for cross posting, needed to save time. 


From kimthurman at insightbb.com  Fri Nov 19 16:27:02 2010
From: kimthurman at insightbb.com (Kimberly thurman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 11:27:02 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] {Disarmed} Fwd: [PawsForward] Announcing the Release of
	Two Plus Four Equals One! [1 Attachment]
References: <SNT101-W955AFAE8A573B933FE84ABA3A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <9347341A-B0A1-473E-9826-44B3FA51B4B3@insightbb.com>

I was in class with this lady at Guiding Eyes for the Blind back in 2007.  

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Kathy Nimmer <goldendolphin17 at hotmail.com>
> Date: November 19, 2010 9:51:48 AM EST
> To: pawsforward at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [PawsForward] Announcing the Release of Two Plus Four Equals One! [1 Attachment]
> Reply-To: PawsForward at yahoogroups.com
> 
> [Attachment(s) from Kathy Nimmer included below]
> Please forward this press release and attached PDF flier to all in the disability community, all dog lovers, and all who enjoy reading stories of Success and hope! 
> TWO PLUS FOUR EQUALS ONE
> Kathy Nimmer, Writer/Editor
> PO Box 3075, West Lafayette, IN 47996
> http://www.servicedogstories.com
> kathy at servicedogstories.com
> 
> Press Release
> For Immediate Release
> November 19, 2010
> 
> Announcing the publication of Two Plus Four Equals One: Celebrating the Partnership of People with Disabilities and Their Assistance Dogs! Teacher and writer Kathy Nimmer has written and edited this inspiring anthology of true stories and poems from around the world, just in time for the holidays! 
> 
> ABOUT THE BOOK 
> 
> True, vibrant, honest, and emotional, eliciting compassion, joy, sorrow, and love, promoting understanding, acceptance, awareness, and hope. Two Plus Four Equals One offers over 100 stories and poems written by or about men, women, and children, all either with disabilities or connected to people who have disabilities. Joining them are Labradors, German Shepherds, Poodles, Papillons, Goldens, Shelties, Chihuahuas, and many other breeds, all trained to assist their disabled handlers. From blindness to deafness, from mobility issues to psychiatric needs, from diabetes to autism, the array of disabilities showcased in this unforgettable book is as vast as the tasks performed by the canine partners. This book highlights the strength, competence, and potential of both the human and canine participants in an alliance where neither partner is perfect but both together add up to an equation where two hands/feet/eyes/ears plus four paws equals one magical union.
> 
> PURPOSE AND REACH 
> 
> Attention to assistance dogs is growing in today’s society. However, people are largely unaware of how these dogs work and what tasks they perform. This book offers an educational inroad through the power of personal narrative.
> 
> There is also a great need for inspiration and hope these days, something to warm the heart and lift the spirit. Love for dogs is fundamental in our society. These writings of triumph, teamwork, humor, success, and love will warm hearts and encourage hope in readers. They will come away with a new confidence in the human spirit to overcome obstacles and the canine spirit to step into a role of support in ways never before imagined or understood.
> 
> People with disabilities are often segregated from the public at large. Because of issues with transportation, communication, and unfair judgments, many disabled people are isolated, unemployed, and underutilized. While this book illuminates the working partnership between assistance dogs and people with disabilities, it also refutes longstanding, unhealthy misperceptions about disability.
> 
> ABOUT THE WRITER/EDITOR
> 
> Kathy Nimmer is an award-winning teacher, author, and motivational speaker from West Lafayette, Indiana. In 2006, she won first place in the Helen Keller International Memoir Competition and published a book of poetry called Minutes in the Dark, Eternity in the Light. She received the Butler-Cooley Excellence in Teaching Award in 2004, is a two-time recipient of the Lilly Teacher Creativity Fellowship, earned National Board Certification in 2003, and was presented with the Golden Apple in 1998. In 2009, she was named a Lilly Distinguished Fellow, giving her the opportunity to pursue a lifelong dream, the fulfillment of which is Two Plus Four Equals One. Blind due to a rare retinal disease, Nimmer teaches sophomore English and creative writing at Harrison High School in West Lafayette, Indiana.
> 
> Learn more and order your copy at 
> http://www.servicedogstories.com
> __._,_.___
> Attachment(s) from Kathy Nimmer
> 1 of 1 File(s)
>  General_Flier.pdf
> Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic
> Messages in this topic (1)
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From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 17:48:30 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 09:48:30 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Cane versus dog, who's the winner
In-Reply-To: <43AF6C4B-3D88-42A0-AF81-61B507BBE33C@gmail.com>
References: <43AF6C4B-3D88-42A0-AF81-61B507BBE33C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=ih=7imCjjg-CKBYWGneR4Y=PJP9p9gFewCbnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Antonio and  List,
  I think what's  Important to  point out is that  this call  does not
have a focus on who's right or wrong in choosing what mode of travel
they would rather utilize.  In fact, the tital  of the call is " Cane
Vs. Guide dog (pros and Cons".  What is  Meant By this is that we are
discussing both sides of each coin.  There are many people on this
list and in our division  ( and in the federation, for that matter)
that either do, or have had  expirience with dog guides, those who do,
or have had expirience with canes, and those who utilize neither.
 What you choose is a personal dicision, and it is respectible either
way.  I don't think  there is a "winner" in the sense the  language in
any posting related to this might have lead anyone to believe, and
I'll  be the first person to say that this call, while on a sunday,
will not be a gridiron clash, or WWE Steel Cage match.  I  Would
expect,  we all are looking for answers in the same way that we do
when on conference call or list serve,  and hope to find them in much
the same way that  the organized blind find them - by sharing
collective knowledge and expiriences.
 So, is there a "winner"? Not  at all- not in the triditional sense,
but certainly in the sense that onefinds the answers they are looking
for,  and figures out  for themselves what  best enables them to go
where they want, when they want,  with little inconvenience to
themselves or others.
  many thanks,
  Darian


On 11/18/10, Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr. <freethaught at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I just got the conference call anonuncement, and have a perspective of my
> own on the cane v. dog wuestion, some might call it an issue.
>
> Why does it have to be a perspective on it anyway. Is one better than the
> other? Do these modes of mobility oppose one another? If not, then why the
> need to put one opposite the other as in the title of the call, cane v. dog
> guide?
>
> I am not blaming the membership committee on the language used at all. I for
> one was a part of the committee, and for another I really don't think our
> membership can help it but to talk in adversarial terms of one versus the
> other.
>
> It is a person's choice whether she or he uses a cane or dog. It's a matter
> of what the individual wants, and what the individual thinks it best. Often
> I see dog users try to convince others that a dog is so useful and great
> because...
>
> Not unlike this group, there often is the other side that is quick to swear
> by the cane, and make the argument for why the cane is the better choice.
>
> I just said "the other side". You see, some may not have even noticed the
> language used. I didn't mean to place the question in the light of one side
> and the other side.
>
> I am a cane user but have also been on the other side, and I wonder why we
> tend to think of this as an us and them issue. Why?
>
> Antonio Guimaraes
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From liziswhatis at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 19 18:14:28 2010
From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:14:28 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Cane versus dog, who's the winner
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=ih=7imCjjg-CKBYWGneR4Y=PJP9p9gFewCbnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <43AF6C4B-3D88-42A0-AF81-61B507BBE33C@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTi=ih=7imCjjg-CKBYWGneR4Y=PJP9p9gFewCbnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS10DA735AD430181D77BBECBA3A0@phx.gbl>

Darian,

Fantastic post! I couldn't have said it better myself.

Take care,

Liz

email: 
liziswhatis at hotmail.com 
Visit my LiveJournal: 
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com 
Follow me on Twitter: 
http://twitter.com/lizbot 





From liziswhatis at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 19 18:18:31 2010
From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:18:31 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <337951E2-E965-4DED-8C88-0517949DCE9B@gmail.com>
References: <337951E2-E965-4DED-8C88-0517949DCE9B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS28484CFC5D33131546F22BA3A0@phx.gbl>

Hi Greg,

Welcome to the list. I'm Liz, a Masters student at Northern Illinois
University studying to be a rehabilitation teacher of blind adults. I am
originally from Delaware, on the East coast. I just started my program in
August as well and am enjoying it very much. I also currently serve as the
President of the Illinois Association of Blind Students. 

Take care, and again, welcome to the list.

Liz

email: 
liziswhatis at hotmail.com 
Visit my LiveJournal: 
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com 
Follow me on Twitter: 
http://twitter.com/lizbot 





From liziswhatis at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 19 18:21:52 2010
From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:21:52 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] accessibility of blackboard
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=70aweje=jVPgRFK6yCZx3J_VdhK_y0OMhjVGB@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AB8CB6FA1EF04E8996F5B8A910928406@Ashley>	<auto-000178322625@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<AANLkTi=70aweje=jVPgRFK6yCZx3J_VdhK_y0OMhjVGB@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS49D2B97844F352861ACE1BA3A0@phx.gbl>

Hi Jewel,

To post on Blackboard, you go into a discussion thread and then hit the
Thread link, which will bring up an edit box for a subject and message and
options to attach a file and possibly other things.

HTH,

Liz

email: 
liziswhatis at hotmail.com 
Visit my LiveJournal: 
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com 
Follow me on Twitter: 
http://twitter.com/lizbot 





From liziswhatis at hotmail.com  Fri Nov 19 18:32:23 2010
From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 12:32:23 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New member
In-Reply-To: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
References: <000201cb8071$9df12f00$d9d38d00$@com>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS96B1CC5EB1B4137351D86BA3A0@phx.gbl>

Hi Koby,

Welcome to the list. What kind of setup do you have at school? Do you have a
laptop or note taker or anything that you could use to read electronic
files? I'm sorry that this is a problem for you.

Take care,

Liz

email: 
liziswhatis at hotmail.com 
Visit my LiveJournal: 
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com 
Follow me on Twitter: 
http://twitter.com/lizbot 





From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 18:42:37 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 10:42:37 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <SNT124-DS28484CFC5D33131546F22BA3A0@phx.gbl>
References: <337951E2-E965-4DED-8C88-0517949DCE9B@gmail.com>
	<SNT124-DS28484CFC5D33131546F22BA3A0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim_DY7wwW7h80BeC0=jPVWA8XfSNcaQ00mknh5M@mail.gmail.com>

Greg,
 Welcome back! As per usual, some things have changed, others  have
stayed the same... but most of it, has probably changed (we are
students, after all *smile*)  Thanks for re-joining and as far as I'm
concerned, you've never left!
  Best,
  Darian

On 11/19/10, Liz Bottner <liziswhatis at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Greg,
>
> Welcome to the list. I'm Liz, a Masters student at Northern Illinois
> University studying to be a rehabilitation teacher of blind adults. I am
> originally from Delaware, on the East coast. I just started my program in
> August as well and am enjoying it very much. I also currently serve as the
> President of the Illinois Association of Blind Students.
>
> Take care, and again, welcome to the list.
>
> Liz
>
> email:
> liziswhatis at hotmail.com
> Visit my LiveJournal:
> http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
> Follow me on Twitter:
> http://twitter.com/lizbot
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From nabs.president at gmail.com  Fri Nov 19 20:37:38 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 13:37:38 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs?
In-Reply-To: <9C27C778700640C2893BCBD51A1E42C9@Rufus>
References: <AANLkTi=hRahM-6WOff0RZ5V_cikMYh-_eciMj+sL-KzU@mail.gmail.com>
	<9C27C778700640C2893BCBD51A1E42C9@Rufus>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=2obGaB6EU3x+nEK3VT6yanrsVkap0v=3y9aH8@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I find it quite frustrating that Google Mail (Gmail) has the
accessible basic HTML option, but Google Docs and Google Calendar do
not, making them largely inaccessible.

Arielle

On 11/17/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> Me thinks there's another NFB lawsuit in the works?  I put that out there
> with an air of sarcasm, but I actually think this is something the NFB
> should have started working on a while ago.  It's a platform that not only
> impacts students but the professional world as well, especially if Microsoft
> and other major players are moving more and more toward cloud computing.
>
> To answer your question, OffiSync is one work-around.  You'll find it,
> ironically, by Googling it, though it might be its own domain.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 2:29 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs?
>
> Hi,
>
> Has anyone here used Google Docs to manage documents, presentations,
> or spreadsheets, and how accessible are they?
>
> My University has partnered with Google which gives all students easy
> access to many of Google's services, and I'm finding that both small
> groups and professors are using Google Docs more and more. I've heard
> that some of Google's offerings aren't screen-reader friendly. Does
> anyone have experience using Google Docs?
>
>
> --
> Brice Smith
> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
> (919) 637-1028
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 00:02:45 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 19:02:45 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=2obGaB6EU3x+nEK3VT6yanrsVkap0v=3y9aH8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=hRahM-6WOff0RZ5V_cikMYh-_eciMj+sL-KzU@mail.gmail.com>
	<9C27C778700640C2893BCBD51A1E42C9@Rufus>
	<AANLkTi=2obGaB6EU3x+nEK3VT6yanrsVkap0v=3y9aH8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FDA52DC2-9CFF-4889-AAF5-1271F2EF7845@gmail.com>

Hello,
I find google calendar very accessible. At least under Mac OS X it works just fine. I've heard that google docs does not work though, but I haven't personally tried it.
On Nov 19, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

> Yes, I find it quite frustrating that Google Mail (Gmail) has the
> accessible basic HTML option, but Google Docs and Google Calendar do
> not, making them largely inaccessible.
> 
> Arielle
> 
> On 11/17/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Me thinks there's another NFB lawsuit in the works?  I put that out there
>> with an air of sarcasm, but I actually think this is something the NFB
>> should have started working on a while ago.  It's a platform that not only
>> impacts students but the professional world as well, especially if Microsoft
>> and other major players are moving more and more toward cloud computing.
>> 
>> To answer your question, OffiSync is one work-around.  You'll find it,
>> ironically, by Googling it, though it might be its own domain.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Joe
>> 
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 2:29 PM
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs?
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Has anyone here used Google Docs to manage documents, presentations,
>> or spreadsheets, and how accessible are they?
>> 
>> My University has partnered with Google which gives all students easy
>> access to many of Google's services, and I'm finding that both small
>> groups and professors are using Google Docs more and more. I've heard
>> that some of Google's offerings aren't screen-reader friendly. Does
>> anyone have experience using Google Docs?
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Brice Smith
>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>> (919) 637-1028
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>> info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>> %40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From th404 at comcast.net  Sat Nov 20 01:28:14 2010
From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 17:28:14 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other Visual Representations of Data
Message-ID: <FF7C6CE8A1824FE2B48F157272BBAA51@userbafffee1fc>

I'm sure all of you have had to either create or interpret graphs of data for your various classes. This issue is still rearing its head in my Environmental Science course, and I doubt that it will really ever go away.

Anyway, if anyone out there has suggestions for coping with this problem, I'd appreciate any advice on either how to work with readers on this issue or what other ways people have found to gain true access to this kind of material. I want to hear about any tools you've used, both low-tech and high-tech. Thanks.

From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Sat Nov 20 01:43:02 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 20:43:02 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other Visual Representations of
 Data
In-Reply-To: <FF7C6CE8A1824FE2B48F157272BBAA51@userbafffee1fc>
References: <FF7C6CE8A1824FE2B48F157272BBAA51@userbafffee1fc>
Message-ID: <BADD9A9F-A3A3-4005-8294-126B8B2AFE52@mac.com>

I've used the APH Graphing Board.
I have no idea how much it costs, because its my TBVI who has it, but its a good tool.



Jorge



On Nov 19, 2010, at 8:28 PM, Tina Hansen wrote:

> I'm sure all of you have had to either create or interpret graphs of data for your various classes. This issue is still rearing its head in my Environmental Science course, and I doubt that it will really ever go away.
> 
> Anyway, if anyone out there has suggestions for coping with this problem, I'd appreciate any advice on either how to work with readers on this issue or what other ways people have found to gain true access to this kind of material. I want to hear about any tools you've used, both low-tech and high-tech. Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From gpaikens at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 02:50:38 2010
From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 20:50:38 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other Visual Representations of
	Data
In-Reply-To: <FF7C6CE8A1824FE2B48F157272BBAA51@userbafffee1fc>
References: <FF7C6CE8A1824FE2B48F157272BBAA51@userbafffee1fc>
Message-ID: <3934F68F-C9F9-4707-84BA-DA037C1052AC@gmail.com>

Hi Tina,
One of my favorite solutions for graphing on the fly is using a home-made screen board.  To make one you take a clipboard (or any flat board really) and cover one side with window screen.  Then you place the paper on the screen and someone can quickly sketch tactile diagrams by drawing with a crayon.  The drawings aren't nearly as nice as you will get with more high tech solutions, but it is extremely cheap, easy to use, and works well for graphs that aren't prepared ahead of time.  If you already have a reader, you could have them sketch the graphs as you go.  

Another solution is using tactile graphics made on microcapsule or Swell paper.  This involves printing the diagram on special paper in black ink and then running it through a machine that heats up the paper.  When the paper is heated, the areas covered in ink become raised lines and the blank spaces do not.  I can't remember the name of the machine but we always used to call it a toaster.  This obviously requires access to the toaster, capsule paper which can get expensive, and someone to prepare the diagrams ahead of time.  These diagrams are much more durable and can provide more precise information.  

There are other solutions as well but these are the two I have used the most in college.  

I hope this info was helpful. 

-Greg
On Nov 19, 2010, at 7:28 PM, Tina Hansen wrote:

> I'm sure all of you have had to either create or interpret graphs of data for your various classes. This issue is still rearing its head in my Environmental Science course, and I doubt that it will really ever go away.
> 
> Anyway, if anyone out there has suggestions for coping with this problem, I'd appreciate any advice on either how to work with readers on this issue or what other ways people have found to gain true access to this kind of material. I want to hear about any tools you've used, both low-tech and high-tech. Thanks.
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com



From th404 at comcast.net  Sat Nov 20 04:45:24 2010
From: th404 at comcast.net (Tina Hansen)
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 20:45:24 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other Visual Representations
	ofData
References: <FF7C6CE8A1824FE2B48F157272BBAA51@userbafffee1fc>
	<3934F68F-C9F9-4707-84BA-DA037C1052AC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E85F89D7E08B47B08035F551B0CC93E6@userbafffee1fc>

These are all good for drawing graphs. Now, how about the question of 
understanding data that graphs and other visual material is meant to 
represent? Does anyone have ideas for how to convey the data that is 
represented in either a table, bar chart, pie chart, scattergram, or 
whatever? What tools, tips, tricks or techniques have you used to gain 
access to this kind of information? Thanks. 



From aadkins7 at verizon.net  Sat Nov 20 13:00:30 2010
From: aadkins7 at verizon.net (Anita Adkins)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 08:00:30 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other Visual
	Representations	ofData
In-Reply-To: <E85F89D7E08B47B08035F551B0CC93E6@userbafffee1fc>
References: <FF7C6CE8A1824FE2B48F157272BBAA51@userbafffee1fc>
	<3934F68F-C9F9-4707-84BA-DA037C1052AC@gmail.com>
	<E85F89D7E08B47B08035F551B0CC93E6@userbafffee1fc>
Message-ID: <11018FEC8BAC4FBF8C53A60A90EE7A4F@AnitaAdkinsPC>

First, the clipboard/screen idea that someone mentioned, an excellent idea, 
is already created because I purchased it from The Braille Bookstore for 
about 14 dollars, and so you can certainly create your own, or if you are 
not talented in that department, you could also purchase it from 
www.braillebookstore.com
Secondly, a tutor may be able to assist you in understanding graphs.  For 
example, one kind of graph is called a line plot.  In this graph, there is a 
horizontal line with numbers below it and x's above it.  Above each number 
is a different number of x's.  So let's say you are working with a group of 
students, and you are graphing how many brothers and sisters they have.  The 
x's on the graph would then represent the number of people with the same 
amount of siblings.  So if there are 5 x's above the number 2, then you 
would know that 5 people in the classroom have 2 siblings.  What I am really 
trying to tell you, then, is with a graph, to know how to read the data, you 
can read your Math and make notes of what things represent, and you can also 
request additional assistance.  I provided the example above just to give 
you an example of a graph and how it is read, but there are many graphs. 
Another graph might  be a pie chart, which looks like a circle.  If half of 
the circle is blue, and blue represents the number of students who ride the 
bus to school, then you know 50 percent, or half, of the students right the 
bus to school.  Red might represent the number of students who walk, and 
maybe only 1/4 of, or 25 percent of, this same circle is red, and so you 
would know that 25 percent of students walked to school.  Usually, there is 
a key to tell you what things represent, or you create the key if required 
when you make up the graph.  The data comes from the type of problem you are 
working with, therefore.  And, the graph displays this data based on what 
kind of graph it is as in the two examples I have provided for you.  I hope 
I have not confused you even more.  Anita
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tina Hansen" <th404 at comcast.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2010 11:45 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other Visual Representations 
ofData


> These are all good for drawing graphs. Now, how about the question of 
> understanding data that graphs and other visual material is meant to 
> represent? Does anyone have ideas for how to convey the data that is 
> represented in either a table, bar chart, pie chart, scattergram, or 
> whatever? What tools, tips, tricks or techniques have you used to gain 
> access to this kind of information? Thanks.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aadkins7%40verizon.net 



From gpaikens at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 15:21:24 2010
From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:21:24 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other Visual Representations
	ofData
In-Reply-To: <E85F89D7E08B47B08035F551B0CC93E6@userbafffee1fc>
References: <FF7C6CE8A1824FE2B48F157272BBAA51@userbafffee1fc>
	<3934F68F-C9F9-4707-84BA-DA037C1052AC@gmail.com>
	<E85F89D7E08B47B08035F551B0CC93E6@userbafffee1fc>
Message-ID: <FE01266D-C7EC-4BB8-9F24-EA3621547F4A@gmail.com>

Hi Tina,
I'm sorry if I misunderstood your original question.  I was thinking that being able to draw the graphs would give you access to a lot of the visual information and what the data represents.  With a well made tactile diagram made by a professional transcriber and some training on how to read them you would be able to feel a bar graph and know that one column represents 50 and another represents 35.  With the methods I suggested you definitely still need someone to tell you exactly what values the diagrams represent.  

My only suggestion for this is to get your reader to read this information to you and then you could put it in your notes.  For bar graphs you could write something like: 
Bar 1: Dogs 35
Bar 2: cats 40 
Bar 3: birds 15

The same would work for pie charts and scattergrams.  For scattergrams I still recommend having someone draw you the diagram to accompany this list of info because it is a very visual way to analyze data.  It can be difficult to get an idea of the trend with just a list of points.  

Hope this was more helpful. 

Greg
On Nov 19, 2010, at 10:45 PM, Tina Hansen wrote:

> These are all good for drawing graphs. Now, how about the question of understanding data that graphs and other visual material is meant to represent? Does anyone have ideas for how to convey the data that is represented in either a table, bar chart, pie chart, scattergram, or whatever? What tools, tips, tricks or techniques have you used to gain access to this kind of information? Thanks. 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com



From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Sat Nov 20 16:14:31 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 10:14:31 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other Visual
	Representations	ofData
In-Reply-To: <FE01266D-C7EC-4BB8-9F24-EA3621547F4A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000178905469@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Tina,

There are simply no absolute answers to this question, and the road you choose will very much depend upon your own strengths and skills.  I don't know 
what sort of background you already have and therefore apologize if I assume too much or too little.  My comments are from the perspective of a math 
major sometime ago and as a computer programmer/analyst so not all will apply.

First, the idea of getting your hands on a way to draw graphs is a good one.  Whatever you end up doing, you will be more successful if you truly 
understand what the various types of graphs show.  This is true even if you don't end up creating tactile versions.  It will help you know what questions to 
ask, and even to understand how else you might get the information conveyed.

For the purposes of a course, I would tend to concentrate on learning to understand graphs and work with a reader who is good at interpreting them.  The 
purpose of a course is to learn about a specific skill, the development of an efficient way to alternatively perform that skill doesn't have to be a part of 
learning.  When you are on the job, things will be more stable.  You would be dealing with statistics in a more or less stable way and you will most likely 
know in advance what it is you will be looking for.  In other words, you will have a chance to prepart alternatives for analyzing the data.

There are various tools that can reproduct graphs in a tactile format such as the Tiger braille printer.  There is also a company called Reprotronics which I 
think still has a system that will take a printed piece of paper and raise darker areas on swell paper.  The paper is expensive but it can work.  
Unfortunately, any system that simply creates a tactile version of something in print generally suffers from trying to show too much information making the 
results not real useful.  Generally, some sort of filtering or formatting has to be done by someone to make sense out of such a process, and this just may 
not be practical for a class.  It is something that could be useful if one were on a job where graphs were very important.  

Some work has been done to produce graphs in an audio fashion.  This can also have some value but I don't know how successfully it has been used to 
interpret data from another source.  

I don't know if anything here will help, but I hope it is somewhat useful.  I am sure I am omitting possibilities as well and I hope others will chime in.  My 
point here is really that there are options out there if you need to deal with graphs a lot, but trying to get a handle on such options during a relatively short 
course may not work.  The important thing is to try to understand graphs and what they are showing within the context of your course.

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:21:24 -0600, Greg Aikens wrote:

>Hi Tina,
>I'm sorry if I misunderstood your original question.  I was thinking that being able to draw the graphs would give you access to a lot of the visual 
information and what the data represents.  With a well made tactile diagram made by a professional transcriber and some training on how to read them you 
would be able to feel a bar graph and know that one column represents 50 and another represents 35.  With the methods I suggested you definitely still 
need someone to tell you exactly what values the diagrams represent.  

>My only suggestion for this is to get your reader to read this information to you and then you could put it in your notes.  For bar graphs you could write 
something like: 
>Bar 1: Dogs 35
>Bar 2: cats 40 
>Bar 3: birds 15

>The same would work for pie charts and scattergrams.  For scattergrams I still recommend having someone draw you the diagram to accompany this list 
of info because it is a very visual way to analyze data.  It can be difficult to get an idea of the trend with just a list of points.  

>Hope this was more helpful. 

>Greg
>On Nov 19, 2010, at 10:45 PM, Tina Hansen wrote:

>> These are all good for drawing graphs. Now, how about the question of understanding data that graphs and other visual material is meant to 
represent? Does anyone have ideas for how to convey the data that is represented in either a table, bar chart, pie chart, scattergram, or whatever? What 
tools, tips, tricks or techniques have you used to gain access to this kind of information? Thanks. 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com


>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com






From jty727 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 20:31:43 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 15:31:43 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
Message-ID: <AANLkTikpBSBpdk-6PBcs4RdL+Yk3ZP9uQxC6yo8Qm3aE@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,
Has anyone on this list taken the LSATS?  I know I definitely want to
take them, but I was wondering when is best to take them.  How
accessible are they and how would you go about requesting services for
adaption?
Any assistance is greatly appreciated!
Justin


From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Sat Nov 20 21:19:23 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 13:19:23 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
References: <AANLkTikpBSBpdk-6PBcs4RdL+Yk3ZP9uQxC6yo8Qm3aE@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <104a01cb88f8$9b3b41d0$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Justin,
If one is serious about going to law school, you should not take the LSAT 
until you have taken a training course such as Stanly Kaplan, and then only 
after you have taken so many practice exams that your score has leveled off, 
and that score is high enough to get you into the law schools you are 
targeting.  If your score is not high enough at that point then you need to 
get more training to help you figure out what you are missing that is 
causing your score to be lower than you are shooting for.  Also you should 
not even apply to take the LSAT and request accommodations until you have 
done all this because you will then know precisely what accommodations you 
need to be successful on the LSAT based on your own experience taking sample 
exams.  Getting into law school is not easy, so preparing for that goal 
should be done with the same amount of effort that an athlete expends when 
preparing for the Olympics.  People who are not willing to do this will not 
get into a great law school, and they shouldn't because they will be 
terrible lawyers.  Are you currently in high school, college or grad school? 
Your question is a good one, and unfortunately too many people who say their 
goal is law school take the LSAT casually, just to see how well they will 
do.  This is a very bad idea, because that score will be preserved and 
reported to law schools, even if you take the exam a second or third time 
and do better.  Feel free to contact me off line if you want to talk about 
law as you are preparing for your career.
All the best,
Dennis


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:31 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?


> Hi All,
> Has anyone on this list taken the LSATS?  I know I definitely want to
> take them, but I was wondering when is best to take them.  How
> accessible are they and how would you go about requesting services for
> adaption?
> Any assistance is greatly appreciated!
> Justin
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net 



From jty727 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 21:33:14 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 16:33:14 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
In-Reply-To: <104a01cb88f8$9b3b41d0$6601a8c0@server>
References: <AANLkTikpBSBpdk-6PBcs4RdL+Yk3ZP9uQxC6yo8Qm3aE@mail.gmail.com>
	<104a01cb88f8$9b3b41d0$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimAmh5Voezh8fgfG0Tp1gg23=0wPZa2rwL9RQdM@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Dennis,
Thank you for your comments.  I currently am a Junior at an
Undergraduate College.  For about the past 2 years I've been highly
involved at my current college and the community college I transfered
from on Disability rights.  So, towards the end of the Community
College experience I decided I would really enjoy this.  I've heard
from 2 different sources of when to take them.  One said Summer
between Junior and Senior.  Another one said the semester before you
graduate.  I definitely will look into those ideas.
Thanks again,
Justin

On 11/20/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello Justin,
> If one is serious about going to law school, you should not take the LSAT
> until you have taken a training course such as Stanly Kaplan, and then only
> after you have taken so many practice exams that your score has leveled off,
> and that score is high enough to get you into the law schools you are
> targeting.  If your score is not high enough at that point then you need to
> get more training to help you figure out what you are missing that is
> causing your score to be lower than you are shooting for.  Also you should
> not even apply to take the LSAT and request accommodations until you have
> done all this because you will then know precisely what accommodations you
> need to be successful on the LSAT based on your own experience taking sample
> exams.  Getting into law school is not easy, so preparing for that goal
> should be done with the same amount of effort that an athlete expends when
> preparing for the Olympics.  People who are not willing to do this will not
> get into a great law school, and they shouldn't because they will be
> terrible lawyers.  Are you currently in high school, college or grad school?
> Your question is a good one, and unfortunately too many people who say their
> goal is law school take the LSAT casually, just to see how well they will
> do.  This is a very bad idea, because that score will be preserved and
> reported to law schools, even if you take the exam a second or third time
> and do better.  Feel free to contact me off line if you want to talk about
> law as you are preparing for your career.
> All the best,
> Dennis
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:31 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
>
>
>> Hi All,
>> Has anyone on this list taken the LSATS?  I know I definitely want to
>> take them, but I was wondering when is best to take them.  How
>> accessible are they and how would you go about requesting services for
>> adaption?
>> Any assistance is greatly appreciated!
>> Justin
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Sat Nov 20 22:04:35 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 14:04:35 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
References: <AANLkTikpBSBpdk-6PBcs4RdL+Yk3ZP9uQxC6yo8Qm3aE@mail.gmail.com><104a01cb88f8$9b3b41d0$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTimAmh5Voezh8fgfG0Tp1gg23=0wPZa2rwL9RQdM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <105e01cb88fe$ebf39130$6601a8c0@server>

Hi Justin,
Great to hear from you.  As a matter of efficiency, it would be great to be 
able to do the LSAT during college summers, but I don't know if that is 
really possible.  I think the Kaplan course as an example, ran for six weeks 
and it may have been even longer.  But that schedule is for sighted people. 
It will take longer for someone blind because the study materials will not 
be sufficiently accessible, or at least accessible to the degree that you 
will need them to be.  For example, the section on logic games involves 
diagrams, so getting the skills you will need from the training materials 
will take extra time.  Moreover, you will need to develop   a technique that 
works for you to do logic games on the exam.  Once you have developed the 
knowledge and skills offered in the course, you will need to take endless 
practice exams to apply those skills so that you consistently get the exam 
scores you will need.  That will probably take more time than remains in the 
Summer.  It's important not to feel pressured to take the exam to keep to an 
arbitrary schedule, because the ultimate objective is to get into law 
school.  I have often recommended to people both sighted and blind, who have 
already scheduled the LSAT exam that they should cancel their scheduled exam 
and forfeit the money, because they are not yet ready to do their best on 
the exam.  One plan that I could get on board with would be to Take Kaplan 
during a particular summer, then throughout the next school year continue 
taking sample LSAT exams.  Then the following Summer, continue cramming 
early in the summer then take the LSAT at the end of the summer.  I was 
fortunate in that I prepared for law school after I had finished college and 
grad school and I was working.  Where are you located?
I look forward to hearing from you.
Best,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?


> Hi Dennis,
> Thank you for your comments.  I currently am a Junior at an
> Undergraduate College.  For about the past 2 years I've been highly
> involved at my current college and the community college I transfered
> from on Disability rights.  So, towards the end of the Community
> College experience I decided I would really enjoy this.  I've heard
> from 2 different sources of when to take them.  One said Summer
> between Junior and Senior.  Another one said the semester before you
> graduate.  I definitely will look into those ideas.
> Thanks again,
> Justin
>
> On 11/20/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> Hello Justin,
>> If one is serious about going to law school, you should not take the LSAT
>> until you have taken a training course such as Stanly Kaplan, and then 
>> only
>> after you have taken so many practice exams that your score has leveled 
>> off,
>> and that score is high enough to get you into the law schools you are
>> targeting.  If your score is not high enough at that point then you need 
>> to
>> get more training to help you figure out what you are missing that is
>> causing your score to be lower than you are shooting for.  Also you 
>> should
>> not even apply to take the LSAT and request accommodations until you have
>> done all this because you will then know precisely what accommodations 
>> you
>> need to be successful on the LSAT based on your own experience taking 
>> sample
>> exams.  Getting into law school is not easy, so preparing for that goal
>> should be done with the same amount of effort that an athlete expends 
>> when
>> preparing for the Olympics.  People who are not willing to do this will 
>> not
>> get into a great law school, and they shouldn't because they will be
>> terrible lawyers.  Are you currently in high school, college or grad 
>> school?
>> Your question is a good one, and unfortunately too many people who say 
>> their
>> goal is law school take the LSAT casually, just to see how well they will
>> do.  This is a very bad idea, because that score will be preserved and
>> reported to law schools, even if you take the exam a second or third time
>> and do better.  Feel free to contact me off line if you want to talk 
>> about
>> law as you are preparing for your career.
>> All the best,
>> Dennis
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:31 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
>>
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>> Has anyone on this list taken the LSATS?  I know I definitely want to
>>> take them, but I was wondering when is best to take them.  How
>>> accessible are they and how would you go about requesting services for
>>> adaption?
>>> Any assistance is greatly appreciated!
>>> Justin
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net 



From jty727 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 20 22:40:19 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 17:40:19 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
In-Reply-To: <105e01cb88fe$ebf39130$6601a8c0@server>
References: <AANLkTikpBSBpdk-6PBcs4RdL+Yk3ZP9uQxC6yo8Qm3aE@mail.gmail.com>
	<104a01cb88f8$9b3b41d0$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTimAmh5Voezh8fgfG0Tp1gg23=0wPZa2rwL9RQdM@mail.gmail.com>
	<105e01cb88fe$ebf39130$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=Ge2vxp-3nUPS_F0L4L=CrVwDb+C+hWMh7EKST@mail.gmail.com>

All great points of advice.  I'm located in Rochester, New York.

On 11/20/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hi Justin,
> Great to hear from you.  As a matter of efficiency, it would be great to be
> able to do the LSAT during college summers, but I don't know if that is
> really possible.  I think the Kaplan course as an example, ran for six weeks
> and it may have been even longer.  But that schedule is for sighted people.
> It will take longer for someone blind because the study materials will not
> be sufficiently accessible, or at least accessible to the degree that you
> will need them to be.  For example, the section on logic games involves
> diagrams, so getting the skills you will need from the training materials
> will take extra time.  Moreover, you will need to develop   a technique that
> works for you to do logic games on the exam.  Once you have developed the
> knowledge and skills offered in the course, you will need to take endless
> practice exams to apply those skills so that you consistently get the exam
> scores you will need.  That will probably take more time than remains in the
> Summer.  It's important not to feel pressured to take the exam to keep to an
> arbitrary schedule, because the ultimate objective is to get into law
> school.  I have often recommended to people both sighted and blind, who have
> already scheduled the LSAT exam that they should cancel their scheduled exam
> and forfeit the money, because they are not yet ready to do their best on
> the exam.  One plan that I could get on board with would be to Take Kaplan
> during a particular summer, then throughout the next school year continue
> taking sample LSAT exams.  Then the following Summer, continue cramming
> early in the summer then take the LSAT at the end of the summer.  I was
> fortunate in that I prepared for law school after I had finished college and
> grad school and I was working.  Where are you located?
> I look forward to hearing from you.
> Best,
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 1:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
>
>
>> Hi Dennis,
>> Thank you for your comments.  I currently am a Junior at an
>> Undergraduate College.  For about the past 2 years I've been highly
>> involved at my current college and the community college I transfered
>> from on Disability rights.  So, towards the end of the Community
>> College experience I decided I would really enjoy this.  I've heard
>> from 2 different sources of when to take them.  One said Summer
>> between Junior and Senior.  Another one said the semester before you
>> graduate.  I definitely will look into those ideas.
>> Thanks again,
>> Justin
>>
>> On 11/20/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> Hello Justin,
>>> If one is serious about going to law school, you should not take the LSAT
>>> until you have taken a training course such as Stanly Kaplan, and then
>>> only
>>> after you have taken so many practice exams that your score has leveled
>>> off,
>>> and that score is high enough to get you into the law schools you are
>>> targeting.  If your score is not high enough at that point then you need
>>> to
>>> get more training to help you figure out what you are missing that is
>>> causing your score to be lower than you are shooting for.  Also you
>>> should
>>> not even apply to take the LSAT and request accommodations until you have
>>> done all this because you will then know precisely what accommodations
>>> you
>>> need to be successful on the LSAT based on your own experience taking
>>> sample
>>> exams.  Getting into law school is not easy, so preparing for that goal
>>> should be done with the same amount of effort that an athlete expends
>>> when
>>> preparing for the Olympics.  People who are not willing to do this will
>>> not
>>> get into a great law school, and they shouldn't because they will be
>>> terrible lawyers.  Are you currently in high school, college or grad
>>> school?
>>> Your question is a good one, and unfortunately too many people who say
>>> their
>>> goal is law school take the LSAT casually, just to see how well they will
>>> do.  This is a very bad idea, because that score will be preserved and
>>> reported to law schools, even if you take the exam a second or third time
>>> and do better.  Feel free to contact me off line if you want to talk
>>> about
>>> law as you are preparing for your career.
>>> All the best,
>>> Dennis
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 12:31 PM
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
>>>
>>>
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> Has anyone on this list taken the LSATS?  I know I definitely want to
>>>> take them, but I was wondering when is best to take them.  How
>>>> accessible are they and how would you go about requesting services for
>>>> adaption?
>>>> Any assistance is greatly appreciated!
>>>> Justin
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 03:36:38 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 22:36:38 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimAmh5Voezh8fgfG0Tp1gg23=0wPZa2rwL9RQdM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikpBSBpdk-6PBcs4RdL+Yk3ZP9uQxC6yo8Qm3aE@mail.gmail.com><104a01cb88f8$9b3b41d0$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTimAmh5Voezh8fgfG0Tp1gg23=0wPZa2rwL9RQdM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50F57B48850749BAA3703CFDB4C33E8A@Rufus>

Justin,

In my case, I was not in the financial position to afford the Kaplan courses
or similar structured review sessions.  Rather, I had someone Braille about
ten different previously administered exams.  I did the first couple at a
casual pace to get myself oriented with the layout, and then I began timing
myself section by section until I finally began timing myself taking the
whole thing.  I bought the three Power Score Bibles, and as far as
commercial material goes, the material packed some really good practical
advice.  I joined a list-serve of students planning on taking the exam at
the same time I was, and the support was great.  I took the December exam,
which put me at a distinct disadvantage in terms of early applications.
I've heard it told that June administrations are the most difficult because
they see the highest number of test takers, but the exam is what it is no
matter when you take it.  Like Dennis, I believe the LSAT is a one-shot
deal.  You can take it twice, but the exam requires a level of investment
that should deliver the results you want the first time around, which leads
me to perhaps the best advice I can offer.  Make sure law is what you really
want to do for a living.  In my case, I felt that a love of debate and an
enjoyment of critical thinking were sufficient grounds to be a lawyer.
Also, it didn't hurt that this is what my father's been expecting me to do
for many years, but the more I studied for the LSAT and the more I read up
about the law school experiences on websites like Top-Law-Schools.com, the
more I realized law was not quite the area where I saw myself in fifteen
years.  In fact, I went through a brief period where I felt completely
stupid for pursuing public administration and public policy in my
undergraduate and graduate studies, because public relations and marketing
is really where I feel I perform at my peak.  I love commercials and media
campaigns, and although I would never pass up the opportunity to try to
protect the rights of the vulnerable, I feel I can still do that without
taking on the enormous sacrifice of law school.  Also, I think Grisham
scared me away. LOL  In terms of accommodations, I requested extra time, a
Braille writer for the logic problems, a laptop for the writing section and
a reader/scribe.  Honestly, despite these accommodations, which was an
experience in patience in of itself, the greater thing I would have
practiced more is striking a better balance between what sections were
better for me to read for myself in Braille and what sections I would have
relied on my reader to convey to me.  After taking the exam I learned other
people were requesting double time instead of what I thought of as the
traditional time and a half.  Maybe that would have helped me, but I still
feel that it's good to use your simulated exams to take into account all the
various methods you can use to pass the exam with a good score.  Another guy
I know who's on this list shared with me his idea of using spreadsheets as
part of the logic games, and I think the idea is quite brilliant and one I
wish I would have thought of myself.  Ultimately, try to figure out what law
you want to practice and the schools that offer that program.  The LSAT is
important no matter where you go, but you don't have to attend a great law
school to be a great lawyer.  Some schools really will take a well-rounded
approach to evaluating your application, and studying for the exam should
not replace the all-too-important task of getting some professional
experience after college and obtaining some leadership positions in
community activities.  My LSAT score is good for another four years if I
change my mind, which is part of the beauty of getting the exam out of the
way.  Take it seriously but don't let it dominate you.  I wish you all the
best of luck.  You're asking questions, and that's one good way to get
yourself prepared for the road ahead.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 



From jty727 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 04:13:29 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 23:13:29 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
In-Reply-To: <50F57B48850749BAA3703CFDB4C33E8A@Rufus>
References: <AANLkTikpBSBpdk-6PBcs4RdL+Yk3ZP9uQxC6yo8Qm3aE@mail.gmail.com>
	<104a01cb88f8$9b3b41d0$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTimAmh5Voezh8fgfG0Tp1gg23=0wPZa2rwL9RQdM@mail.gmail.com>
	<50F57B48850749BAA3703CFDB4C33E8A@Rufus>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikFGimQsgQVOSLeK8WWqzh7RApLpObdB9W2m8tq@mail.gmail.com>

Yes Joe I've always been told I ask the good questions.  Haha.  I've
decided I really want to go into Disability law dealing with like
SSI/SSDI and like ADA Compliance stuff.  I've been looking into
schools which offer this both in New York and other places.  Are they
study books or whatever you call them which get you a good sense of
what they are actually like?

On 11/20/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> Justin,
>
> In my case, I was not in the financial position to afford the Kaplan courses
> or similar structured review sessions.  Rather, I had someone Braille about
> ten different previously administered exams.  I did the first couple at a
> casual pace to get myself oriented with the layout, and then I began timing
> myself section by section until I finally began timing myself taking the
> whole thing.  I bought the three Power Score Bibles, and as far as
> commercial material goes, the material packed some really good practical
> advice.  I joined a list-serve of students planning on taking the exam at
> the same time I was, and the support was great.  I took the December exam,
> which put me at a distinct disadvantage in terms of early applications.
> I've heard it told that June administrations are the most difficult because
> they see the highest number of test takers, but the exam is what it is no
> matter when you take it.  Like Dennis, I believe the LSAT is a one-shot
> deal.  You can take it twice, but the exam requires a level of investment
> that should deliver the results you want the first time around, which leads
> me to perhaps the best advice I can offer.  Make sure law is what you really
> want to do for a living.  In my case, I felt that a love of debate and an
> enjoyment of critical thinking were sufficient grounds to be a lawyer.
> Also, it didn't hurt that this is what my father's been expecting me to do
> for many years, but the more I studied for the LSAT and the more I read up
> about the law school experiences on websites like Top-Law-Schools.com, the
> more I realized law was not quite the area where I saw myself in fifteen
> years.  In fact, I went through a brief period where I felt completely
> stupid for pursuing public administration and public policy in my
> undergraduate and graduate studies, because public relations and marketing
> is really where I feel I perform at my peak.  I love commercials and media
> campaigns, and although I would never pass up the opportunity to try to
> protect the rights of the vulnerable, I feel I can still do that without
> taking on the enormous sacrifice of law school.  Also, I think Grisham
> scared me away. LOL  In terms of accommodations, I requested extra time, a
> Braille writer for the logic problems, a laptop for the writing section and
> a reader/scribe.  Honestly, despite these accommodations, which was an
> experience in patience in of itself, the greater thing I would have
> practiced more is striking a better balance between what sections were
> better for me to read for myself in Braille and what sections I would have
> relied on my reader to convey to me.  After taking the exam I learned other
> people were requesting double time instead of what I thought of as the
> traditional time and a half.  Maybe that would have helped me, but I still
> feel that it's good to use your simulated exams to take into account all the
> various methods you can use to pass the exam with a good score.  Another guy
> I know who's on this list shared with me his idea of using spreadsheets as
> part of the logic games, and I think the idea is quite brilliant and one I
> wish I would have thought of myself.  Ultimately, try to figure out what law
> you want to practice and the schools that offer that program.  The LSAT is
> important no matter where you go, but you don't have to attend a great law
> school to be a great lawyer.  Some schools really will take a well-rounded
> approach to evaluating your application, and studying for the exam should
> not replace the all-too-important task of getting some professional
> experience after college and obtaining some leadership positions in
> community activities.  My LSAT score is good for another four years if I
> change my mind, which is part of the beauty of getting the exam out of the
> way.  Take it seriously but don't let it dominate you.  I wish you all the
> best of luck.  You're asking questions, and that's one good way to get
> yourself prepared for the road ahead.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Sun Nov 21 04:41:54 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2010 23:41:54 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikFGimQsgQVOSLeK8WWqzh7RApLpObdB9W2m8tq@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikpBSBpdk-6PBcs4RdL+Yk3ZP9uQxC6yo8Qm3aE@mail.gmail.com>
	<104a01cb88f8$9b3b41d0$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTimAmh5Voezh8fgfG0Tp1gg23=0wPZa2rwL9RQdM@mail.gmail.com>
	<50F57B48850749BAA3703CFDB4C33E8A@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikFGimQsgQVOSLeK8WWqzh7RApLpObdB9W2m8tq@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C073238A-A5F0-4BE4-9286-F7121E66F61D@mac.com>

Justin:
Just wondering,
what schools have you seen in New York who offer this program? Because I'm thinking of going into that field too.
Thanks,

Jorge



On Nov 20, 2010, at 11:13 PM, Justin Young wrote:

> Yes Joe I've always been told I ask the good questions.  Haha.  I've
> decided I really want to go into Disability law dealing with like
> SSI/SSDI and like ADA Compliance stuff.  I've been looking into
> schools which offer this both in New York and other places.  Are they
> study books or whatever you call them which get you a good sense of
> what they are actually like?
> 
> On 11/20/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Justin,
>> 
>> In my case, I was not in the financial position to afford the Kaplan courses
>> or similar structured review sessions.  Rather, I had someone Braille about
>> ten different previously administered exams.  I did the first couple at a
>> casual pace to get myself oriented with the layout, and then I began timing
>> myself section by section until I finally began timing myself taking the
>> whole thing.  I bought the three Power Score Bibles, and as far as
>> commercial material goes, the material packed some really good practical
>> advice.  I joined a list-serve of students planning on taking the exam at
>> the same time I was, and the support was great.  I took the December exam,
>> which put me at a distinct disadvantage in terms of early applications.
>> I've heard it told that June administrations are the most difficult because
>> they see the highest number of test takers, but the exam is what it is no
>> matter when you take it.  Like Dennis, I believe the LSAT is a one-shot
>> deal.  You can take it twice, but the exam requires a level of investment
>> that should deliver the results you want the first time around, which leads
>> me to perhaps the best advice I can offer.  Make sure law is what you really
>> want to do for a living.  In my case, I felt that a love of debate and an
>> enjoyment of critical thinking were sufficient grounds to be a lawyer.
>> Also, it didn't hurt that this is what my father's been expecting me to do
>> for many years, but the more I studied for the LSAT and the more I read up
>> about the law school experiences on websites like Top-Law-Schools.com, the
>> more I realized law was not quite the area where I saw myself in fifteen
>> years.  In fact, I went through a brief period where I felt completely
>> stupid for pursuing public administration and public policy in my
>> undergraduate and graduate studies, because public relations and marketing
>> is really where I feel I perform at my peak.  I love commercials and media
>> campaigns, and although I would never pass up the opportunity to try to
>> protect the rights of the vulnerable, I feel I can still do that without
>> taking on the enormous sacrifice of law school.  Also, I think Grisham
>> scared me away. LOL  In terms of accommodations, I requested extra time, a
>> Braille writer for the logic problems, a laptop for the writing section and
>> a reader/scribe.  Honestly, despite these accommodations, which was an
>> experience in patience in of itself, the greater thing I would have
>> practiced more is striking a better balance between what sections were
>> better for me to read for myself in Braille and what sections I would have
>> relied on my reader to convey to me.  After taking the exam I learned other
>> people were requesting double time instead of what I thought of as the
>> traditional time and a half.  Maybe that would have helped me, but I still
>> feel that it's good to use your simulated exams to take into account all the
>> various methods you can use to pass the exam with a good score.  Another guy
>> I know who's on this list shared with me his idea of using spreadsheets as
>> part of the logic games, and I think the idea is quite brilliant and one I
>> wish I would have thought of myself.  Ultimately, try to figure out what law
>> you want to practice and the schools that offer that program.  The LSAT is
>> important no matter where you go, but you don't have to attend a great law
>> school to be a great lawyer.  Some schools really will take a well-rounded
>> approach to evaluating your application, and studying for the exam should
>> not replace the all-too-important task of getting some professional
>> experience after college and obtaining some leadership positions in
>> community activities.  My LSAT score is good for another four years if I
>> change my mind, which is part of the beauty of getting the exam out of the
>> way.  Take it seriously but don't let it dominate you.  I wish you all the
>> best of luck.  You're asking questions, and that's one good way to get
>> yourself prepared for the road ahead.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Joe
>> 
>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From jty727 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 05:37:54 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 00:37:54 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
In-Reply-To: <C073238A-A5F0-4BE4-9286-F7121E66F61D@mac.com>
References: <AANLkTikpBSBpdk-6PBcs4RdL+Yk3ZP9uQxC6yo8Qm3aE@mail.gmail.com>
	<104a01cb88f8$9b3b41d0$6601a8c0@server>
	<AANLkTimAmh5Voezh8fgfG0Tp1gg23=0wPZa2rwL9RQdM@mail.gmail.com>
	<50F57B48850749BAA3703CFDB4C33E8A@Rufus>
	<AANLkTikFGimQsgQVOSLeK8WWqzh7RApLpObdB9W2m8tq@mail.gmail.com>
	<C073238A-A5F0-4BE4-9286-F7121E66F61D@mac.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimCE0wRX3RYF_ggC7R9LWZxLMvvcdThuc=TAYeM@mail.gmail.com>

Well, the ones which I recall are Syracus University which has a
Disabilities Studies program which includes the legal side as well in
their Law school.  There is also Albany Law School, University of
Buffalo and Cornell which have them.  Cornell is a good one because
they have the Northeastern Center for ADA stuff which is basically an
ADA resource center.  If I were to stay instate it would be either
Syracus or Albany.  I've also been looking at ones in Mass because I
love the Boston area.

On 11/20/10, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
> Justin:
> Just wondering,
> what schools have you seen in New York who offer this program? Because I'm
> thinking of going into that field too.
> Thanks,
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2010, at 11:13 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>
>> Yes Joe I've always been told I ask the good questions.  Haha.  I've
>> decided I really want to go into Disability law dealing with like
>> SSI/SSDI and like ADA Compliance stuff.  I've been looking into
>> schools which offer this both in New York and other places.  Are they
>> study books or whatever you call them which get you a good sense of
>> what they are actually like?
>>
>> On 11/20/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Justin,
>>>
>>> In my case, I was not in the financial position to afford the Kaplan
>>> courses
>>> or similar structured review sessions.  Rather, I had someone Braille
>>> about
>>> ten different previously administered exams.  I did the first couple at a
>>> casual pace to get myself oriented with the layout, and then I began
>>> timing
>>> myself section by section until I finally began timing myself taking the
>>> whole thing.  I bought the three Power Score Bibles, and as far as
>>> commercial material goes, the material packed some really good practical
>>> advice.  I joined a list-serve of students planning on taking the exam at
>>> the same time I was, and the support was great.  I took the December
>>> exam,
>>> which put me at a distinct disadvantage in terms of early applications.
>>> I've heard it told that June administrations are the most difficult
>>> because
>>> they see the highest number of test takers, but the exam is what it is no
>>> matter when you take it.  Like Dennis, I believe the LSAT is a one-shot
>>> deal.  You can take it twice, but the exam requires a level of investment
>>> that should deliver the results you want the first time around, which
>>> leads
>>> me to perhaps the best advice I can offer.  Make sure law is what you
>>> really
>>> want to do for a living.  In my case, I felt that a love of debate and an
>>> enjoyment of critical thinking were sufficient grounds to be a lawyer.
>>> Also, it didn't hurt that this is what my father's been expecting me to
>>> do
>>> for many years, but the more I studied for the LSAT and the more I read
>>> up
>>> about the law school experiences on websites like Top-Law-Schools.com,
>>> the
>>> more I realized law was not quite the area where I saw myself in fifteen
>>> years.  In fact, I went through a brief period where I felt completely
>>> stupid for pursuing public administration and public policy in my
>>> undergraduate and graduate studies, because public relations and
>>> marketing
>>> is really where I feel I perform at my peak.  I love commercials and
>>> media
>>> campaigns, and although I would never pass up the opportunity to try to
>>> protect the rights of the vulnerable, I feel I can still do that without
>>> taking on the enormous sacrifice of law school.  Also, I think Grisham
>>> scared me away. LOL  In terms of accommodations, I requested extra time,
>>> a
>>> Braille writer for the logic problems, a laptop for the writing section
>>> and
>>> a reader/scribe.  Honestly, despite these accommodations, which was an
>>> experience in patience in of itself, the greater thing I would have
>>> practiced more is striking a better balance between what sections were
>>> better for me to read for myself in Braille and what sections I would
>>> have
>>> relied on my reader to convey to me.  After taking the exam I learned
>>> other
>>> people were requesting double time instead of what I thought of as the
>>> traditional time and a half.  Maybe that would have helped me, but I
>>> still
>>> feel that it's good to use your simulated exams to take into account all
>>> the
>>> various methods you can use to pass the exam with a good score.  Another
>>> guy
>>> I know who's on this list shared with me his idea of using spreadsheets
>>> as
>>> part of the logic games, and I think the idea is quite brilliant and one
>>> I
>>> wish I would have thought of myself.  Ultimately, try to figure out what
>>> law
>>> you want to practice and the schools that offer that program.  The LSAT
>>> is
>>> important no matter where you go, but you don't have to attend a great
>>> law
>>> school to be a great lawyer.  Some schools really will take a
>>> well-rounded
>>> approach to evaluating your application, and studying for the exam should
>>> not replace the all-too-important task of getting some professional
>>> experience after college and obtaining some leadership positions in
>>> community activities.  My LSAT score is good for another four years if I
>>> change my mind, which is part of the beauty of getting the exam out of
>>> the
>>> way.  Take it seriously but don't let it dominate you.  I wish you all
>>> the
>>> best of luck.  You're asking questions, and that's one good way to get
>>> yourself prepared for the road ahead.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From kramc11 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 15:20:51 2010
From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 10:20:51 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimCE0wRX3RYF_ggC7R9LWZxLMvvcdThuc=TAYeM@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikpBSBpdk-6PBcs4RdL+Yk3ZP9uQxC6yo8Qm3aE@mail.gmail.com><104a01cb88f8$9b3b41d0$6601a8c0@server><AANLkTimAmh5Voezh8fgfG0Tp1gg23=0wPZa2rwL9RQdM@mail.gmail.com><50F57B48850749BAA3703CFDB4C33E8A@Rufus><AANLkTikFGimQsgQVOSLeK8WWqzh7RApLpObdB9W2m8tq@mail.gmail.com><C073238A-A5F0-4BE4-9286-F7121E66F61D@mac.com>
	<AANLkTimCE0wRX3RYF_ggC7R9LWZxLMvvcdThuc=TAYeM@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B825FBB2C2E490F832987CAC34D32BB@SonyPC>

If anyone is looking to go to school in MA and has any questions, I am the 
secretary of the Massachusetts Association of Blind Students (MassABS). you 
can send me an email off list at kramc11 at gmail.com and I can attempt to 
answer any questions you may have or put you in contact with someone with 
the answers.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Justin Young" <jty727 at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS?


> Well, the ones which I recall are Syracus University which has a
> Disabilities Studies program which includes the legal side as well in
> their Law school.  There is also Albany Law School, University of
> Buffalo and Cornell which have them.  Cornell is a good one because
> they have the Northeastern Center for ADA stuff which is basically an
> ADA resource center.  If I were to stay instate it would be either
> Syracus or Albany.  I've also been looking at ones in Mass because I
> love the Boston area.
>
> On 11/20/10, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
>> Justin:
>> Just wondering,
>> what schools have you seen in New York who offer this program? Because 
>> I'm
>> thinking of going into that field too.
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 20, 2010, at 11:13 PM, Justin Young wrote:
>>
>>> Yes Joe I've always been told I ask the good questions.  Haha.  I've
>>> decided I really want to go into Disability law dealing with like
>>> SSI/SSDI and like ADA Compliance stuff.  I've been looking into
>>> schools which offer this both in New York and other places.  Are they
>>> study books or whatever you call them which get you a good sense of
>>> what they are actually like?
>>>
>>> On 11/20/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Justin,
>>>>
>>>> In my case, I was not in the financial position to afford the Kaplan
>>>> courses
>>>> or similar structured review sessions.  Rather, I had someone Braille
>>>> about
>>>> ten different previously administered exams.  I did the first couple at 
>>>> a
>>>> casual pace to get myself oriented with the layout, and then I began
>>>> timing
>>>> myself section by section until I finally began timing myself taking 
>>>> the
>>>> whole thing.  I bought the three Power Score Bibles, and as far as
>>>> commercial material goes, the material packed some really good 
>>>> practical
>>>> advice.  I joined a list-serve of students planning on taking the exam 
>>>> at
>>>> the same time I was, and the support was great.  I took the December
>>>> exam,
>>>> which put me at a distinct disadvantage in terms of early applications.
>>>> I've heard it told that June administrations are the most difficult
>>>> because
>>>> they see the highest number of test takers, but the exam is what it is 
>>>> no
>>>> matter when you take it.  Like Dennis, I believe the LSAT is a one-shot
>>>> deal.  You can take it twice, but the exam requires a level of 
>>>> investment
>>>> that should deliver the results you want the first time around, which
>>>> leads
>>>> me to perhaps the best advice I can offer.  Make sure law is what you
>>>> really
>>>> want to do for a living.  In my case, I felt that a love of debate and 
>>>> an
>>>> enjoyment of critical thinking were sufficient grounds to be a lawyer.
>>>> Also, it didn't hurt that this is what my father's been expecting me to
>>>> do
>>>> for many years, but the more I studied for the LSAT and the more I read
>>>> up
>>>> about the law school experiences on websites like Top-Law-Schools.com,
>>>> the
>>>> more I realized law was not quite the area where I saw myself in 
>>>> fifteen
>>>> years.  In fact, I went through a brief period where I felt completely
>>>> stupid for pursuing public administration and public policy in my
>>>> undergraduate and graduate studies, because public relations and
>>>> marketing
>>>> is really where I feel I perform at my peak.  I love commercials and
>>>> media
>>>> campaigns, and although I would never pass up the opportunity to try to
>>>> protect the rights of the vulnerable, I feel I can still do that 
>>>> without
>>>> taking on the enormous sacrifice of law school.  Also, I think Grisham
>>>> scared me away. LOL  In terms of accommodations, I requested extra 
>>>> time,
>>>> a
>>>> Braille writer for the logic problems, a laptop for the writing section
>>>> and
>>>> a reader/scribe.  Honestly, despite these accommodations, which was an
>>>> experience in patience in of itself, the greater thing I would have
>>>> practiced more is striking a better balance between what sections were
>>>> better for me to read for myself in Braille and what sections I would
>>>> have
>>>> relied on my reader to convey to me.  After taking the exam I learned
>>>> other
>>>> people were requesting double time instead of what I thought of as the
>>>> traditional time and a half.  Maybe that would have helped me, but I
>>>> still
>>>> feel that it's good to use your simulated exams to take into account 
>>>> all
>>>> the
>>>> various methods you can use to pass the exam with a good score. 
>>>> Another
>>>> guy
>>>> I know who's on this list shared with me his idea of using spreadsheets
>>>> as
>>>> part of the logic games, and I think the idea is quite brilliant and 
>>>> one
>>>> I
>>>> wish I would have thought of myself.  Ultimately, try to figure out 
>>>> what
>>>> law
>>>> you want to practice and the schools that offer that program.  The LSAT
>>>> is
>>>> important no matter where you go, but you don't have to attend a great
>>>> law
>>>> school to be a great lawyer.  Some schools really will take a
>>>> well-rounded
>>>> approach to evaluating your application, and studying for the exam 
>>>> should
>>>> not replace the all-too-important task of getting some professional
>>>> experience after college and obtaining some leadership positions in
>>>> community activities.  My LSAT score is good for another four years if 
>>>> I
>>>> change my mind, which is part of the beauty of getting the exam out of
>>>> the
>>>> way.  Take it seriously but don't let it dominate you.  I wish you all
>>>> the
>>>> best of luck.  You're asking questions, and that's one good way to get
>>>> yourself prepared for the road ahead.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>>
>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>>> sleeves,
>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
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>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
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>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
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From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Sun Nov 21 17:31:28 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:31:28 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] editing services
Message-ID: <06FFC008-7ED9-4C4B-9B42-CB640A15EC4C@mac.com>

Hi all:
Just wanted to let you know that I am now offering editing services.
If you have an essay, report, etc., that needs editing or that you want  proofread, let me know offline and we can talk about it.

Jorge


From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Sun Nov 21 17:34:16 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 09:34:16 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other
	VisualRepresentations	ofData
References: <auto-000178905469@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <97B7630DB277474C965D6FAA8724822E@stanford.edu>

For me, as long as the graph does not have too much information on it, the 
DRC usually transcribes it into Braille. As far as drawing graphs, I use a 
few different methods. If it is not too complex, I use my tactile drawing 
kit, which can be purchased from several different places, including the 
Perkins Institute or APH. Sometimes, if there is a lot of data, I will use 
Excel. However, I only use Excel if I have a good understanding of what the 
graph looks like, as that is usually the point of drawing the graph. I used 
to have the AGC, but I don't have it anymore. With that, you can get a sound 
representation of your graph, which you cannot get with Excel.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other VisualRepresentations 
ofData


> Tina,
>
> There are simply no absolute answers to this question, and the road you 
> choose will very much depend upon your own strengths and skills.  I don't 
> know
> what sort of background you already have and therefore apologize if I 
> assume too much or too little.  My comments are from the perspective of a 
> math
> major sometime ago and as a computer programmer/analyst so not all will 
> apply.
>
> First, the idea of getting your hands on a way to draw graphs is a good 
> one.  Whatever you end up doing, you will be more successful if you truly
> understand what the various types of graphs show.  This is true even if 
> you don't end up creating tactile versions.  It will help you know what 
> questions to
> ask, and even to understand how else you might get the information 
> conveyed.
>
> For the purposes of a course, I would tend to concentrate on learning to 
> understand graphs and work with a reader who is good at interpreting them. 
> The
> purpose of a course is to learn about a specific skill, the development of 
> an efficient way to alternatively perform that skill doesn't have to be a 
> part of
> learning.  When you are on the job, things will be more stable.  You would 
> be dealing with statistics in a more or less stable way and you will most 
> likely
> know in advance what it is you will be looking for.  In other words, you 
> will have a chance to prepart alternatives for analyzing the data.
>
> There are various tools that can reproduct graphs in a tactile format such 
> as the Tiger braille printer.  There is also a company called Reprotronics 
> which I
> think still has a system that will take a printed piece of paper and raise 
> darker areas on swell paper.  The paper is expensive but it can work.
> Unfortunately, any system that simply creates a tactile version of 
> something in print generally suffers from trying to show too much 
> information making the
> results not real useful.  Generally, some sort of filtering or formatting 
> has to be done by someone to make sense out of such a process, and this 
> just may
> not be practical for a class.  It is something that could be useful if one 
> were on a job where graphs were very important.
>
> Some work has been done to produce graphs in an audio fashion.  This can 
> also have some value but I don't know how successfully it has been used to
> interpret data from another source.
>
> I don't know if anything here will help, but I hope it is somewhat useful. 
> I am sure I am omitting possibilities as well and I hope others will chime 
> in.  My
> point here is really that there are options out there if you need to deal 
> with graphs a lot, but trying to get a handle on such options during a 
> relatively short
> course may not work.  The important thing is to try to understand graphs 
> and what they are showing within the context of your course.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Steve Jacobson
>
> On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:21:24 -0600, Greg Aikens wrote:
>
>>Hi Tina,
>>I'm sorry if I misunderstood your original question.  I was thinking that 
>>being able to draw the graphs would give you access to a lot of the visual
> information and what the data represents.  With a well made tactile 
> diagram made by a professional transcriber and some training on how to 
> read them you
> would be able to feel a bar graph and know that one column represents 50 
> and another represents 35.  With the methods I suggested you definitely 
> still
> need someone to tell you exactly what values the diagrams represent.
>
>>My only suggestion for this is to get your reader to read this information 
>>to you and then you could put it in your notes.  For bar graphs you could 
>>write
> something like:
>>Bar 1: Dogs 35
>>Bar 2: cats 40
>>Bar 3: birds 15
>
>>The same would work for pie charts and scattergrams.  For scattergrams I 
>>still recommend having someone draw you the diagram to accompany this list
> of info because it is a very visual way to analyze data.  It can be 
> difficult to get an idea of the trend with just a list of points.
>
>>Hope this was more helpful.
>
>>Greg
>>On Nov 19, 2010, at 10:45 PM, Tina Hansen wrote:
>
>>> These are all good for drawing graphs. Now, how about the question of 
>>> understanding data that graphs and other visual material is meant to
> represent? Does anyone have ideas for how to convey the data that is 
> represented in either a table, bar chart, pie chart, scattergram, or 
> whatever? What
> tools, tips, tricks or techniques have you used to gain access to this 
> kind of information? Thanks.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com
>
>
>>_______________________________________________
>>nabs-l mailing list
>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>nabs-l:
>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Sun Nov 21 17:37:01 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:37:01 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and
	Other	VisualRepresentations	ofData
In-Reply-To: <97B7630DB277474C965D6FAA8724822E@stanford.edu>
References: <auto-000178905469@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<97B7630DB277474C965D6FAA8724822E@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <02115610-7055-4F7D-83F2-EAD70E7A1B38@mac.com>

Nicole:
By tactile kit, do you mean the DRAFTSMAN DRAWING BOARD?
If not, what do you use and how much does it cost?
I might be interested in getting one for home, because I'm going to be studying a lot of graphs this year.

Jorge



On Nov 21, 2010, at 12:34 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote:

> For me, as long as the graph does not have too much information on it, the DRC usually transcribes it into Braille. As far as drawing graphs, I use a few different methods. If it is not too complex, I use my tactile drawing kit, which can be purchased from several different places, including the Perkins Institute or APH. Sometimes, if there is a lot of data, I will use Excel. However, I only use Excel if I have a good understanding of what the graph looks like, as that is usually the point of drawing the graph. I used to have the AGC, but I don't have it anymore. With that, you can get a sound representation of your graph, which you cannot get with Excel.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:14 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other VisualRepresentations ofData
> 
> 
>> Tina,
>> 
>> There are simply no absolute answers to this question, and the road you choose will very much depend upon your own strengths and skills.  I don't know
>> what sort of background you already have and therefore apologize if I assume too much or too little.  My comments are from the perspective of a math
>> major sometime ago and as a computer programmer/analyst so not all will apply.
>> 
>> First, the idea of getting your hands on a way to draw graphs is a good one.  Whatever you end up doing, you will be more successful if you truly
>> understand what the various types of graphs show.  This is true even if you don't end up creating tactile versions.  It will help you know what questions to
>> ask, and even to understand how else you might get the information conveyed.
>> 
>> For the purposes of a course, I would tend to concentrate on learning to understand graphs and work with a reader who is good at interpreting them. The
>> purpose of a course is to learn about a specific skill, the development of an efficient way to alternatively perform that skill doesn't have to be a part of
>> learning.  When you are on the job, things will be more stable.  You would be dealing with statistics in a more or less stable way and you will most likely
>> know in advance what it is you will be looking for.  In other words, you will have a chance to prepart alternatives for analyzing the data.
>> 
>> There are various tools that can reproduct graphs in a tactile format such as the Tiger braille printer.  There is also a company called Reprotronics which I
>> think still has a system that will take a printed piece of paper and raise darker areas on swell paper.  The paper is expensive but it can work.
>> Unfortunately, any system that simply creates a tactile version of something in print generally suffers from trying to show too much information making the
>> results not real useful.  Generally, some sort of filtering or formatting has to be done by someone to make sense out of such a process, and this just may
>> not be practical for a class.  It is something that could be useful if one were on a job where graphs were very important.
>> 
>> Some work has been done to produce graphs in an audio fashion.  This can also have some value but I don't know how successfully it has been used to
>> interpret data from another source.
>> 
>> I don't know if anything here will help, but I hope it is somewhat useful. I am sure I am omitting possibilities as well and I hope others will chime in.  My
>> point here is really that there are options out there if you need to deal with graphs a lot, but trying to get a handle on such options during a relatively short
>> course may not work.  The important thing is to try to understand graphs and what they are showing within the context of your course.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Steve Jacobson
>> 
>> On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:21:24 -0600, Greg Aikens wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi Tina,
>>> I'm sorry if I misunderstood your original question.  I was thinking that being able to draw the graphs would give you access to a lot of the visual
>> information and what the data represents.  With a well made tactile diagram made by a professional transcriber and some training on how to read them you
>> would be able to feel a bar graph and know that one column represents 50 and another represents 35.  With the methods I suggested you definitely still
>> need someone to tell you exactly what values the diagrams represent.
>> 
>>> My only suggestion for this is to get your reader to read this information to you and then you could put it in your notes.  For bar graphs you could write
>> something like:
>>> Bar 1: Dogs 35
>>> Bar 2: cats 40
>>> Bar 3: birds 15
>> 
>>> The same would work for pie charts and scattergrams.  For scattergrams I still recommend having someone draw you the diagram to accompany this list
>> of info because it is a very visual way to analyze data.  It can be difficult to get an idea of the trend with just a list of points.
>> 
>>> Hope this was more helpful.
>> 
>>> Greg
>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 10:45 PM, Tina Hansen wrote:
>> 
>>>> These are all good for drawing graphs. Now, how about the question of understanding data that graphs and other visual material is meant to
>> represent? Does anyone have ideas for how to convey the data that is represented in either a table, bar chart, pie chart, scattergram, or whatever? What
>> tools, tips, tricks or techniques have you used to gain access to this kind of information? Thanks.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Sun Nov 21 19:57:35 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 11:57:35 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs
	andOther	VisualRepresentations	ofData
References: <auto-000178905469@mailfront2.g2host.com><97B7630DB277474C965D6FAA8724822E@stanford.edu>
	<02115610-7055-4F7D-83F2-EAD70E7A1B38@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A939F84A90094CB592F576992ABAD850@stanford.edu>

I think that is what it might be called, but I am not sure. It is a wooden 
board that has a rubber mat on top of it. It has holes along each side so 
that you can put the ruler that comes with it in the holes and keep it from 
sliding around when you are trying to draw a straight line. My complete kit 
is actually a hoj poj of actual drawing kits and odds and ends that I have 
picked up over the years. The original kit consisted of the board, it's 
ruler, a right angle, one of those fabric wheels, and a kind of pencil 
looking thing for punching holes with one end bigger than the other. 
Usually, if I am trying to draw a line on a graph, I will use the small end 
of the pencil thing to punch holes through to the back of the paper. I will 
then flip the paper over and connect the dots (no pun intended) with the 
fabric wheel, using the ruler to make a straight line. The one thing about 
which one has to be careful is pressing too hard and cutting the paper. On 
the flip side of that, it does work well if you need to cut a straight line, 
and, like me, you are one of those people who could not cut a straight line 
with scissors to save your life. Anyway, the next part of the kit that I 
acquired was two separate parts. I received one of those tools that is 
supposed to pull up a dot when you press it into the paper and then pull up. 
It came with a rubber mat. However, it did not work very well, and I have 
since set it aside, but I still use the mat. I also received three more 
drawing tools, which were a double ended drawing wheel with a small end and 
an end that made two parallel lines, a double ended wheel that had a small 
end and an end with a wheel with larger spokes that were more spaced out, 
and another double ended pencil thing, which had a ball like point at one 
end and a more pointed part on the other end. Besides that, I have collected 
a number of other things. I have a rubber cord like thing that can be curved 
into different shapes; it is good for drawing parabolas. I have a piece of 
textured cardboard that I sometimes use instead of a drawing screen. I have 
a circle that I cut. Oh, and, I almost forgot, I also have a compass, but I 
don't like it much. You have to make the circle by punching individual 
holes. I would be interested to know if anyone has found one that works 
better. I also have two rulers that are attached together that you can 
separate or push together; they work well for drawing parallel lines. I also 
have fun tack for holding down the right angle or other things that I am 
trying to trace and sticky note tape. The board also came with some plastic 
paper that, when you drew on it with a pen or one of the pencil things, it 
raised up on the top instead of the other side, so you did not have to draw 
backwards. When I ran out of this, I found that the plastic from the printer 
paper packages worked fine as well. I might have more tools, but, as I am 
home for Thanksgiving and my drawing kit is back in my dorm room, I do not 
know what they are at the moment.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs andOther VisualRepresentations 
ofData


> Nicole:
> By tactile kit, do you mean the DRAFTSMAN DRAWING BOARD?
> If not, what do you use and how much does it cost?
> I might be interested in getting one for home, because I'm going to be 
> studying a lot of graphs this year.
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
> On Nov 21, 2010, at 12:34 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote:
>
>> For me, as long as the graph does not have too much information on it, 
>> the DRC usually transcribes it into Braille. As far as drawing graphs, I 
>> use a few different methods. If it is not too complex, I use my tactile 
>> drawing kit, which can be purchased from several different places, 
>> including the Perkins Institute or APH. Sometimes, if there is a lot of 
>> data, I will use Excel. However, I only use Excel if I have a good 
>> understanding of what the graph looks like, as that is usually the point 
>> of drawing the graph. I used to have the AGC, but I don't have it 
>> anymore. With that, you can get a sound representation of your graph, 
>> which you cannot get with Excel.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" 
>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:14 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other VisualRepresentations 
>> ofData
>>
>>
>>> Tina,
>>>
>>> There are simply no absolute answers to this question, and the road you 
>>> choose will very much depend upon your own strengths and skills.  I 
>>> don't know
>>> what sort of background you already have and therefore apologize if I 
>>> assume too much or too little.  My comments are from the perspective of 
>>> a math
>>> major sometime ago and as a computer programmer/analyst so not all will 
>>> apply.
>>>
>>> First, the idea of getting your hands on a way to draw graphs is a good 
>>> one.  Whatever you end up doing, you will be more successful if you 
>>> truly
>>> understand what the various types of graphs show.  This is true even if 
>>> you don't end up creating tactile versions.  It will help you know what 
>>> questions to
>>> ask, and even to understand how else you might get the information 
>>> conveyed.
>>>
>>> For the purposes of a course, I would tend to concentrate on learning to 
>>> understand graphs and work with a reader who is good at interpreting 
>>> them. The
>>> purpose of a course is to learn about a specific skill, the development 
>>> of an efficient way to alternatively perform that skill doesn't have to 
>>> be a part of
>>> learning.  When you are on the job, things will be more stable.  You 
>>> would be dealing with statistics in a more or less stable way and you 
>>> will most likely
>>> know in advance what it is you will be looking for.  In other words, you 
>>> will have a chance to prepart alternatives for analyzing the data.
>>>
>>> There are various tools that can reproduct graphs in a tactile format 
>>> such as the Tiger braille printer.  There is also a company called 
>>> Reprotronics which I
>>> think still has a system that will take a printed piece of paper and 
>>> raise darker areas on swell paper.  The paper is expensive but it can 
>>> work.
>>> Unfortunately, any system that simply creates a tactile version of 
>>> something in print generally suffers from trying to show too much 
>>> information making the
>>> results not real useful.  Generally, some sort of filtering or 
>>> formatting has to be done by someone to make sense out of such a 
>>> process, and this just may
>>> not be practical for a class.  It is something that could be useful if 
>>> one were on a job where graphs were very important.
>>>
>>> Some work has been done to produce graphs in an audio fashion.  This can 
>>> also have some value but I don't know how successfully it has been used 
>>> to
>>> interpret data from another source.
>>>
>>> I don't know if anything here will help, but I hope it is somewhat 
>>> useful. I am sure I am omitting possibilities as well and I hope others 
>>> will chime in.  My
>>> point here is really that there are options out there if you need to 
>>> deal with graphs a lot, but trying to get a handle on such options 
>>> during a relatively short
>>> course may not work.  The important thing is to try to understand graphs 
>>> and what they are showing within the context of your course.
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>
>>> On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:21:24 -0600, Greg Aikens wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Tina,
>>>> I'm sorry if I misunderstood your original question.  I was thinking 
>>>> that being able to draw the graphs would give you access to a lot of 
>>>> the visual
>>> information and what the data represents.  With a well made tactile 
>>> diagram made by a professional transcriber and some training on how to 
>>> read them you
>>> would be able to feel a bar graph and know that one column represents 50 
>>> and another represents 35.  With the methods I suggested you definitely 
>>> still
>>> need someone to tell you exactly what values the diagrams represent.
>>>
>>>> My only suggestion for this is to get your reader to read this 
>>>> information to you and then you could put it in your notes.  For bar 
>>>> graphs you could write
>>> something like:
>>>> Bar 1: Dogs 35
>>>> Bar 2: cats 40
>>>> Bar 3: birds 15
>>>
>>>> The same would work for pie charts and scattergrams.  For scattergrams 
>>>> I still recommend having someone draw you the diagram to accompany this 
>>>> list
>>> of info because it is a very visual way to analyze data.  It can be 
>>> difficult to get an idea of the trend with just a list of points.
>>>
>>>> Hope this was more helpful.
>>>
>>>> Greg
>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 10:45 PM, Tina Hansen wrote:
>>>
>>>>> These are all good for drawing graphs. Now, how about the question of 
>>>>> understanding data that graphs and other visual material is meant to
>>> represent? Does anyone have ideas for how to convey the data that is 
>>> represented in either a table, bar chart, pie chart, scattergram, or 
>>> whatever? What
>>> tools, tips, tricks or techniques have you used to gain access to this 
>>> kind of information? Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Sun Nov 21 20:14:22 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:14:22 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Coping with
	Graphs	andOther	VisualRepresentations	ofData
In-Reply-To: <A939F84A90094CB592F576992ABAD850@stanford.edu>
References: <auto-000178905469@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<97B7630DB277474C965D6FAA8724822E@stanford.edu>
	<02115610-7055-4F7D-83F2-EAD70E7A1B38@mac.com>
	<A939F84A90094CB592F576992ABAD850@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <D320A60E-F7B7-4422-9C2C-F0DF55EBBEFA@mac.com>

Ah.
Yes, that's exactly what I have.
The only difference is that I only have the board, plastic paper, and the pencil and wheel.

Thanks Nicole.

Jorge




On Nov 21, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote:

> I think that is what it might be called, but I am not sure. It is a wooden board that has a rubber mat on top of it. It has holes along each side so that you can put the ruler that comes with it in the holes and keep it from sliding around when you are trying to draw a straight line. My complete kit is actually a hoj poj of actual drawing kits and odds and ends that I have picked up over the years. The original kit consisted of the board, it's ruler, a right angle, one of those fabric wheels, and a kind of pencil looking thing for punching holes with one end bigger than the other. Usually, if I am trying to draw a line on a graph, I will use the small end of the pencil thing to punch holes through to the back of the paper. I will then flip the paper over and connect the dots (no pun intended) with the fabric wheel, using the ruler to make a straight line. The one thing about which one has to be careful is pressing too hard and cutting the paper. On the flip side of that, it does work well if you need to cut a straight line, and, like me, you are one of those people who could not cut a straight line with scissors to save your life. Anyway, the next part of the kit that I acquired was two separate parts. I received one of those tools that is supposed to pull up a dot when you press it into the paper and then pull up. It came with a rubber mat. However, it did not work very well, and I have since set it aside, but I still use the mat. I also received three more drawing tools, which were a double ended drawing wheel with a small end and an end that made two parallel lines, a double ended wheel that had a small end and an end with a wheel with larger spokes that were more spaced out, and another double ended pencil thing, which had a ball like point at one end and a more pointed part on the other end. Besides that, I have collected a number of other things. I have a rubber cord like thing that can be curved into different shapes; it is good for drawing parabolas. I have a piece of textured cardboard that I sometimes use instead of a drawing screen. I have a circle that I cut. Oh, and, I almost forgot, I also have a compass, but I don't like it much. You have to make the circle by punching individual holes. I would be interested to know if anyone has found one that works better. I also have two rulers that are attached together that you can separate or push together; they work well for drawing parallel lines. I also have fun tack for holding down the right angle or other things that I am trying to trace and sticky note tape. The board also came with some plastic paper that, when you drew on it with a pen or one of the pencil things, it raised up on the top instead of the other side, so you did not have to draw backwards. When I ran out of this, I found that the plastic from the printer paper packages worked fine as well. I might have more tools, but, as I am home for Thanksgiving and my drawing kit is back in my dorm room, I do not know what they are at the moment.
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:37 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs andOther VisualRepresentations ofData
> 
> 
>> Nicole:
>> By tactile kit, do you mean the DRAFTSMAN DRAWING BOARD?
>> If not, what do you use and how much does it cost?
>> I might be interested in getting one for home, because I'm going to be studying a lot of graphs this year.
>> 
>> Jorge
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 12:34 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote:
>> 
>>> For me, as long as the graph does not have too much information on it, the DRC usually transcribes it into Braille. As far as drawing graphs, I use a few different methods. If it is not too complex, I use my tactile drawing kit, which can be purchased from several different places, including the Perkins Institute or APH. Sometimes, if there is a lot of data, I will use Excel. However, I only use Excel if I have a good understanding of what the graph looks like, as that is usually the point of drawing the graph. I used to have the AGC, but I don't have it anymore. With that, you can get a sound representation of your graph, which you cannot get with Excel.
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:14 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other VisualRepresentations ofData
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> Tina,
>>>> 
>>>> There are simply no absolute answers to this question, and the road you choose will very much depend upon your own strengths and skills.  I don't know
>>>> what sort of background you already have and therefore apologize if I assume too much or too little.  My comments are from the perspective of a math
>>>> major sometime ago and as a computer programmer/analyst so not all will apply.
>>>> 
>>>> First, the idea of getting your hands on a way to draw graphs is a good one.  Whatever you end up doing, you will be more successful if you truly
>>>> understand what the various types of graphs show.  This is true even if you don't end up creating tactile versions.  It will help you know what questions to
>>>> ask, and even to understand how else you might get the information conveyed.
>>>> 
>>>> For the purposes of a course, I would tend to concentrate on learning to understand graphs and work with a reader who is good at interpreting them. The
>>>> purpose of a course is to learn about a specific skill, the development of an efficient way to alternatively perform that skill doesn't have to be a part of
>>>> learning.  When you are on the job, things will be more stable.  You would be dealing with statistics in a more or less stable way and you will most likely
>>>> know in advance what it is you will be looking for.  In other words, you will have a chance to prepart alternatives for analyzing the data.
>>>> 
>>>> There are various tools that can reproduct graphs in a tactile format such as the Tiger braille printer.  There is also a company called Reprotronics which I
>>>> think still has a system that will take a printed piece of paper and raise darker areas on swell paper.  The paper is expensive but it can work.
>>>> Unfortunately, any system that simply creates a tactile version of something in print generally suffers from trying to show too much information making the
>>>> results not real useful.  Generally, some sort of filtering or formatting has to be done by someone to make sense out of such a process, and this just may
>>>> not be practical for a class.  It is something that could be useful if one were on a job where graphs were very important.
>>>> 
>>>> Some work has been done to produce graphs in an audio fashion.  This can also have some value but I don't know how successfully it has been used to
>>>> interpret data from another source.
>>>> 
>>>> I don't know if anything here will help, but I hope it is somewhat useful. I am sure I am omitting possibilities as well and I hope others will chime in.  My
>>>> point here is really that there are options out there if you need to deal with graphs a lot, but trying to get a handle on such options during a relatively short
>>>> course may not work.  The important thing is to try to understand graphs and what they are showing within the context of your course.
>>>> 
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> 
>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:21:24 -0600, Greg Aikens wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi Tina,
>>>>> I'm sorry if I misunderstood your original question.  I was thinking that being able to draw the graphs would give you access to a lot of the visual
>>>> information and what the data represents.  With a well made tactile diagram made by a professional transcriber and some training on how to read them you
>>>> would be able to feel a bar graph and know that one column represents 50 and another represents 35.  With the methods I suggested you definitely still
>>>> need someone to tell you exactly what values the diagrams represent.
>>>> 
>>>>> My only suggestion for this is to get your reader to read this information to you and then you could put it in your notes.  For bar graphs you could write
>>>> something like:
>>>>> Bar 1: Dogs 35
>>>>> Bar 2: cats 40
>>>>> Bar 3: birds 15
>>>> 
>>>>> The same would work for pie charts and scattergrams.  For scattergrams I still recommend having someone draw you the diagram to accompany this list
>>>> of info because it is a very visual way to analyze data.  It can be difficult to get an idea of the trend with just a list of points.
>>>> 
>>>>> Hope this was more helpful.
>>>> 
>>>>> Greg
>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 10:45 PM, Tina Hansen wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>>> These are all good for drawing graphs. Now, how about the question of understanding data that graphs and other visual material is meant to
>>>> represent? Does anyone have ideas for how to convey the data that is represented in either a table, bar chart, pie chart, scattergram, or whatever? What
>>>> tools, tips, tricks or techniques have you used to gain access to this kind of information? Thanks.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Sun Nov 21 20:29:38 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 12:29:38 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Geometry Re: Coping
	withGraphs	andOther	VisualRepresentations	ofData
References: <auto-000178905469@mailfront2.g2host.com><97B7630DB277474C965D6FAA8724822E@stanford.edu><02115610-7055-4F7D-83F2-EAD70E7A1B38@mac.com><A939F84A90094CB592F576992ABAD850@stanford.edu>
	<D320A60E-F7B7-4422-9C2C-F0DF55EBBEFA@mac.com>
Message-ID: <E410B38AF4804CFD931AE43CF7CFC74A@stanford.edu>

I actually enjoy making tactile designs for fun. It is very interesting what 
designs you can make with a compass and then connecting the points where the 
circles cross. Also, drawing two different round robbins on the same circle 
with one point in common on the edge and then connecting the points to only 
the other points in each set can have interesting results. I once did this 
with a 3 and a 5. The result was a starr with a triangle behind it, the star 
and the triangle sharing the top point.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Coping withGraphs andOther VisualRepresentations 
ofData


> Ah.
> Yes, that's exactly what I have.
> The only difference is that I only have the board, plastic paper, and the 
> pencil and wheel.
>
> Thanks Nicole.
>
> Jorge
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 21, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote:
>
>> I think that is what it might be called, but I am not sure. It is a 
>> wooden board that has a rubber mat on top of it. It has holes along each 
>> side so that you can put the ruler that comes with it in the holes and 
>> keep it from sliding around when you are trying to draw a straight line. 
>> My complete kit is actually a hoj poj of actual drawing kits and odds and 
>> ends that I have picked up over the years. The original kit consisted of 
>> the board, it's ruler, a right angle, one of those fabric wheels, and a 
>> kind of pencil looking thing for punching holes with one end bigger than 
>> the other. Usually, if I am trying to draw a line on a graph, I will use 
>> the small end of the pencil thing to punch holes through to the back of 
>> the paper. I will then flip the paper over and connect the dots (no pun 
>> intended) with the fabric wheel, using the ruler to make a straight line. 
>> The one thing about which one has to be careful is pressing too hard and 
>> cutting the paper. On the flip side of that, it does work well if you 
>> need to cut a straight line, and, like me, you are one of those people 
>> who could not cut a straight line with scissors to save your life. 
>> Anyway, the next part of the kit that I acquired was two separate parts. 
>> I received one of those tools that is supposed to pull up a dot when you 
>> press it into the paper and then pull up. It came with a rubber mat. 
>> However, it did not work very well, and I have since set it aside, but I 
>> still use the mat. I also received three more drawing tools, which were a 
>> double ended drawing wheel with a small end and an end that made two 
>> parallel lines, a double ended wheel that had a small end and an end with 
>> a wheel with larger spokes that were more spaced out, and another double 
>> ended pencil thing, which had a ball like point at one end and a more 
>> pointed part on the other end. Besides that, I have collected a number of 
>> other things. I have a rubber cord like thing that can be curved into 
>> different shapes; it is good for drawing parabolas. I have a piece of 
>> textured cardboard that I sometimes use instead of a drawing screen. I 
>> have a circle that I cut. Oh, and, I almost forgot, I also have a 
>> compass, but I don't like it much. You have to make the circle by 
>> punching individual holes. I would be interested to know if anyone has 
>> found one that works better. I also have two rulers that are attached 
>> together that you can separate or push together; they work well for 
>> drawing parallel lines. I also have fun tack for holding down the right 
>> angle or other things that I am trying to trace and sticky note tape. The 
>> board also came with some plastic paper that, when you drew on it with a 
>> pen or one of the pencil things, it raised up on the top instead of the 
>> other side, so you did not have to draw backwards. When I ran out of 
>> this, I found that the plastic from the printer paper packages worked 
>> fine as well. I might have more tools, but, as I am home for Thanksgiving 
>> and my drawing kit is back in my dorm room, I do not know what they are 
>> at the moment.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 9:37 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs andOther VisualRepresentations 
>> ofData
>>
>>
>>> Nicole:
>>> By tactile kit, do you mean the DRAFTSMAN DRAWING BOARD?
>>> If not, what do you use and how much does it cost?
>>> I might be interested in getting one for home, because I'm going to be 
>>> studying a lot of graphs this year.
>>>
>>> Jorge
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 12:34 PM, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote:
>>>
>>>> For me, as long as the graph does not have too much information on it, 
>>>> the DRC usually transcribes it into Braille. As far as drawing graphs, 
>>>> I use a few different methods. If it is not too complex, I use my 
>>>> tactile drawing kit, which can be purchased from several different 
>>>> places, including the Perkins Institute or APH. Sometimes, if there is 
>>>> a lot of data, I will use Excel. However, I only use Excel if I have a 
>>>> good understanding of what the graph looks like, as that is usually the 
>>>> point of drawing the graph. I used to have the AGC, but I don't have it 
>>>> anymore. With that, you can get a sound representation of your graph, 
>>>> which you cannot get with Excel.
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Jacobson" 
>>>> <steve.jacobson at visi.com>
>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
>>>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>>>> Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2010 8:14 AM
>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Coping with Graphs and Other 
>>>> VisualRepresentations ofData
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Tina,
>>>>>
>>>>> There are simply no absolute answers to this question, and the road 
>>>>> you choose will very much depend upon your own strengths and skills. 
>>>>> I don't know
>>>>> what sort of background you already have and therefore apologize if I 
>>>>> assume too much or too little.  My comments are from the perspective 
>>>>> of a math
>>>>> major sometime ago and as a computer programmer/analyst so not all 
>>>>> will apply.
>>>>>
>>>>> First, the idea of getting your hands on a way to draw graphs is a 
>>>>> good one.  Whatever you end up doing, you will be more successful if 
>>>>> you truly
>>>>> understand what the various types of graphs show.  This is true even 
>>>>> if you don't end up creating tactile versions.  It will help you know 
>>>>> what questions to
>>>>> ask, and even to understand how else you might get the information 
>>>>> conveyed.
>>>>>
>>>>> For the purposes of a course, I would tend to concentrate on learning 
>>>>> to understand graphs and work with a reader who is good at 
>>>>> interpreting them. The
>>>>> purpose of a course is to learn about a specific skill, the 
>>>>> development of an efficient way to alternatively perform that skill 
>>>>> doesn't have to be a part of
>>>>> learning.  When you are on the job, things will be more stable.  You 
>>>>> would be dealing with statistics in a more or less stable way and you 
>>>>> will most likely
>>>>> know in advance what it is you will be looking for.  In other words, 
>>>>> you will have a chance to prepart alternatives for analyzing the data.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are various tools that can reproduct graphs in a tactile format 
>>>>> such as the Tiger braille printer.  There is also a company called 
>>>>> Reprotronics which I
>>>>> think still has a system that will take a printed piece of paper and 
>>>>> raise darker areas on swell paper.  The paper is expensive but it can 
>>>>> work.
>>>>> Unfortunately, any system that simply creates a tactile version of 
>>>>> something in print generally suffers from trying to show too much 
>>>>> information making the
>>>>> results not real useful.  Generally, some sort of filtering or 
>>>>> formatting has to be done by someone to make sense out of such a 
>>>>> process, and this just may
>>>>> not be practical for a class.  It is something that could be useful if 
>>>>> one were on a job where graphs were very important.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some work has been done to produce graphs in an audio fashion.  This 
>>>>> can also have some value but I don't know how successfully it has been 
>>>>> used to
>>>>> interpret data from another source.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know if anything here will help, but I hope it is somewhat 
>>>>> useful. I am sure I am omitting possibilities as well and I hope 
>>>>> others will chime in.  My
>>>>> point here is really that there are options out there if you need to 
>>>>> deal with graphs a lot, but trying to get a handle on such options 
>>>>> during a relatively short
>>>>> course may not work.  The important thing is to try to understand 
>>>>> graphs and what they are showing within the context of your course.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Jacobson
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 20 Nov 2010 09:21:24 -0600, Greg Aikens wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Tina,
>>>>>> I'm sorry if I misunderstood your original question.  I was thinking 
>>>>>> that being able to draw the graphs would give you access to a lot of 
>>>>>> the visual
>>>>> information and what the data represents.  With a well made tactile 
>>>>> diagram made by a professional transcriber and some training on how to 
>>>>> read them you
>>>>> would be able to feel a bar graph and know that one column represents 
>>>>> 50 and another represents 35.  With the methods I suggested you 
>>>>> definitely still
>>>>> need someone to tell you exactly what values the diagrams represent.
>>>>>
>>>>>> My only suggestion for this is to get your reader to read this 
>>>>>> information to you and then you could put it in your notes.  For bar 
>>>>>> graphs you could write
>>>>> something like:
>>>>>> Bar 1: Dogs 35
>>>>>> Bar 2: cats 40
>>>>>> Bar 3: birds 15
>>>>>
>>>>>> The same would work for pie charts and scattergrams.  For 
>>>>>> scattergrams I still recommend having someone draw you the diagram to 
>>>>>> accompany this list
>>>>> of info because it is a very visual way to analyze data.  It can be 
>>>>> difficult to get an idea of the trend with just a list of points.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hope this was more helpful.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 10:45 PM, Tina Hansen wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> These are all good for drawing graphs. Now, how about the question 
>>>>>>> of understanding data that graphs and other visual material is meant 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>> represent? Does anyone have ideas for how to convey the data that is 
>>>>> represented in either a table, bar chart, pie chart, scattergram, or 
>>>>> whatever? What
>>>>> tools, tips, tricks or techniques have you used to gain access to this 
>>>>> kind of information? Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info 
>>>>>>> for nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
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From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 21:25:41 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 16:25:41 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Dog VS Cane
Message-ID: <AANLkTikfH4dcQHTEMDdjhJrE9HgEHuxrX84364bNsnfG@mail.gmail.com>

Hi!
That age old debate comes up again in tonight's monthly Nabs
conference call. Dog or cane.
They both have their advantages. Sure those cute puppies make for
great guides and for great fun when not working. And yet, there's a
reason that cane travel is so important and stressed so much at the
NFB training centers.
So come to the conference tonight at 7 PM eastern and hear the
different perspectives on this topic.
And if you can't clal in, I'm happy to say the call will be streamed
live. So at 7 PM eastern, tune in at
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/listenlive.html
See you there!
>From David


From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Sun Nov 21 21:49:38 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 13:49:38 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Dog VS Cane
References: <AANLkTikfH4dcQHTEMDdjhJrE9HgEHuxrX84364bNsnfG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EEAB2AFF87914864A70F057CF566DF43@stanford.edu>

Will it be archived?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 1:25 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Dog VS Cane


> Hi!
> That age old debate comes up again in tonight's monthly Nabs
> conference call. Dog or cane.
> They both have their advantages. Sure those cute puppies make for
> great guides and for great fun when not working. And yet, there's a
> reason that cane travel is so important and stressed so much at the
> NFB training centers.
> So come to the conference tonight at 7 PM eastern and hear the
> different perspectives on this topic.
> And if you can't clal in, I'm happy to say the call will be streamed
> live. So at 7 PM eastern, tune in at
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/listenlive.html
> See you there!
>>From David
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 22:48:37 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 17:48:37 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Dog VS Cane
References: <AANLkTikfH4dcQHTEMDdjhJrE9HgEHuxrX84364bNsnfG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C58E557F079140C68C39A6062398A822@hometwxakonvzn>

You didn't give the phone number. RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 4:25 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Dog VS Cane


> Hi!
> That age old debate comes up again in tonight's monthly Nabs
> conference call. Dog or cane.
> They both have their advantages. Sure those cute puppies make for
> great guides and for great fun when not working. And yet, there's a
> reason that cane travel is so important and stressed so much at the
> NFB training centers.
> So come to the conference tonight at 7 PM eastern and hear the
> different perspectives on this topic.
> And if you can't clal in, I'm happy to say the call will be streamed
> live. So at 7 PM eastern, tune in at
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/listenlive.html
> See you there!
>>From David
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 22:59:58 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 17:59:58 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Dog VS Cane
In-Reply-To: <EEAB2AFF87914864A70F057CF566DF43@stanford.edu>
References: <AANLkTikfH4dcQHTEMDdjhJrE9HgEHuxrX84364bNsnfG@mail.gmail.com>
	<EEAB2AFF87914864A70F057CF566DF43@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimWD0BeV0efOLkWGV7QU8vyFQTJqPmqV2uyYK2+@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, and a link will be posted here once it's available.


From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Sun Nov 21 23:09:18 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 15:09:18 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Dog VS Cane
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimWD0BeV0efOLkWGV7QU8vyFQTJqPmqV2uyYK2+@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikfH4dcQHTEMDdjhJrE9HgEHuxrX84364bNsnfG@mail.gmail.com>
	<EEAB2AFF87914864A70F057CF566DF43@stanford.edu>
	<AANLkTimWD0BeV0efOLkWGV7QU8vyFQTJqPmqV2uyYK2+@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimxKJGSprk-uR965N6GrKnDSicKfBiY3mCpuh+w@mail.gmail.com>

hello all,
  I just wanted to  say that I look forward to the conference call
today. it will be a great oppertunity for us to share stories, and
yet be respectful of  expiriences.  Please do bring your questions!
if you can listen in, listen in. If you can't make it, please do feel
free to  listen in on our autio once  it is posted.  Obviously,  it is
not possible to  take part in the  call in much the same way without
actually being there, but  however you would like to join is would be
greatly welcomed and appreciated!
  Tahnks,
  Darian

On 11/21/10, David Dunphy <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, and a link will be posted here once it's available.
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From amylsabo at comcast.net  Mon Nov 22 02:36:38 2010
From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 02:36:38 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] Dog VS Cane
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikfH4dcQHTEMDdjhJrE9HgEHuxrX84364bNsnfG@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2131318325.1144704.1290393398846.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

hello david and all,

thanks for posting this to the list... as for the difference between dog vs cane is a good topic indeed. i'm a cane user but, i do love dogs and how cute they are. i'm very comfortable in using my cane and have been doing since i was 18 years old. i plan to someday get a guide dog but, not right now.

thanks again for the topic and, i look forward to many discussions on this topic.


hugs,
from amy	

----- Original Message -----
From: David Dunphy <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 21:25:41 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: [nabs-l] Dog VS Cane

Hi!
That age old debate comes up again in tonight's monthly Nabs
conference call. Dog or cane.
They both have their advantages. Sure those cute puppies make for
great guides and for great fun when not working. And yet, there's a
reason that cane travel is so important and stressed so much at the
NFB training centers.
So come to the conference tonight at 7 PM eastern and hear the
different perspectives on this topic.
And if you can't clal in, I'm happy to say the call will be streamed
live. So at 7 PM eastern, tune in at
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/listenlive.html
See you there!
>From David

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net

From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Mon Nov 22 02:47:37 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 21:47:37 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
Message-ID: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>

Hi all:
I am considering options for travel, and my Vision Teacher and I have discussed if I ever wanted to get a dog.
>From your points of view, what are the advantages to using a guide dog instead of a cane?
I am very comfortable with a cane, and I'm aware that good use of the cane is required before you can get a dog,
but what are the advantages of a guide dog in terms of day-to-day life?

Thanks,

Jorge


From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Mon Nov 22 04:00:53 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:00:53 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
Message-ID: <C216C3447A6942D599AC80B0F37E163F@stanford.edu>

Everyone's opinion on this is going to differ, but here are the main points 
that I have found.
I have found that travel is faster and smoother. To go around something with 
a cane, you actually have to find it first. With a guide dog, you go around 
the object without interacting with it. I like not having to swing my cane; 
I find walking with the dog, just holding onto the harness handle more 
relaxing. Some guide dogs are trained to avoid overhead obstacles which a 
cane would not find. Most guide dogs can be taught to find things, such as 
doors, elevators, and chairs. If you go to a place often enough and do a 
particular action often enough, your dog sometimes helps you do that. For 
example, in the dining hall in my dorm, I always sit in the same chair. My 
guide dog will take me to the chair without me asking. She also knows that I 
tire easily, or at least understands that I like to sit down often, so she 
will show me benches along the way. I also find getting through crowds 
easier with a guide dog.

Those are the mobility advantages, but I also find other advantages to 
having a guide dog. It has been my experience that more people stop to chat 
because of my guide dog. The guide dog is a wonderful companion. Sometimes, 
when your having a bad day, your dog is enough to cheer you up.

As you said, though, good O.&M. skills come first. Sometimes, my guide dog 
knows where we are going, and I don't have to tell her when to turn, but it 
is always my responsibility to know where we are. If she gets us lost 
because she turned when I was not paying attention, I cannot get mad at her 
for getting us lost because I was the one not paying attention.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 6:47 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> Hi all:
> I am considering options for travel, and my Vision Teacher and I have 
> discussed if I ever wanted to get a dog.
>>From your points of view, what are the advantages to using a guide dog 
>>instead of a cane?
> I am very comfortable with a cane, and I'm aware that good use of the cane 
> is required before you can get a dog,
> but what are the advantages of a guide dog in terms of day-to-day life?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jorge
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 04:07:44 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2010 20:07:44 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <C216C3447A6942D599AC80B0F37E163F@stanford.edu>
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
	<C216C3447A6942D599AC80B0F37E163F@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinWv33MBANe-fiWTi4Vda=UXuzEMZQ46NLgU3v_@mail.gmail.com>

Good points!
 i think there are many advantages and disadvantages to both.  In
short, I would suggest you take a listen to the conference call
archiving when it comes up   on the nabslink audio site, because this
was all of what we talked about
  Best,
Darian

On 11/21/10, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
> Everyone's opinion on this is going to differ, but here are the main points
> that I have found.
> I have found that travel is faster and smoother. To go around something with
> a cane, you actually have to find it first. With a guide dog, you go around
> the object without interacting with it. I like not having to swing my cane;
> I find walking with the dog, just holding onto the harness handle more
> relaxing. Some guide dogs are trained to avoid overhead obstacles which a
> cane would not find. Most guide dogs can be taught to find things, such as
> doors, elevators, and chairs. If you go to a place often enough and do a
> particular action often enough, your dog sometimes helps you do that. For
> example, in the dining hall in my dorm, I always sit in the same chair. My
> guide dog will take me to the chair without me asking. She also knows that I
> tire easily, or at least understands that I like to sit down often, so she
> will show me benches along the way. I also find getting through crowds
> easier with a guide dog.
>
> Those are the mobility advantages, but I also find other advantages to
> having a guide dog. It has been my experience that more people stop to chat
> because of my guide dog. The guide dog is a wonderful companion. Sometimes,
> when your having a bad day, your dog is enough to cheer you up.
>
> As you said, though, good O.&M. skills come first. Sometimes, my guide dog
> knows where we are going, and I don't have to tell her when to turn, but it
> is always my responsibility to know where we are. If she gets us lost
> because she turned when I was not paying attention, I cannot get mad at her
> for getting us lost because I was the one not paying attention.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 6:47 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
>
>
>> Hi all:
>> I am considering options for travel, and my Vision Teacher and I have
>> discussed if I ever wanted to get a dog.
>>>From your points of view, what are the advantages to using a guide dog
>>>instead of a cane?
>> I am very comfortable with a cane, and I'm aware that good use of the cane
>>
>> is required before you can get a dog,
>> but what are the advantages of a guide dog in terms of day-to-day life?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 06:16:30 2010
From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 00:16:30 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS
In-Reply-To: <mailman.11.1290362403.23475.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.11.1290362403.23475.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <001c01cb8a0c$cebb4090$6c31c1b0$@com>

Justin,

I am currently preparing to take the LSAT. I was initially scheduled to take
the October administration of the test, but ran into certain points of
disagreement with the LSAC regarding accommodations. As Joe alluded to, I
have found the use of MS Excel to "diagram" logic games extremely helpful. I
also purchased the Kaplan books, and was provided reasonably accessible pdf
and html files. LSAC approved the use of Excel on the test, so that is
something you may want to explore as an option. I have, thus far, been
unsuccessful in getting LSAC to approve the use of JAWS and an e-text to
read the reading comprehension and logical reasoning portions of the test.
As Dennis said, it is crucial to get the score you are capable of on the
first crack. My top score on practice tests with a human reader is 168, and
my top score using JAWS is 173. This is a very significant difference when
applying to top schools, so I am continuing to fight LSAC on this point. I
know of at least one case in the past where a blind student was permitted to
use JAWS and an e-text version of the exam, so I hope to be granted the same
accommodation when all is said and done.

Ideally you will take the LSAT in the June or October in the year prior to
the fall in which you wish to enroll in law school. If you can't dish out
the $$$ for a prep course, try to read some test prep books from Powerscore
or Kaplan or the like, and take practice test after practice test. Over
multiple practice tests, your score will level off, and, assuming that you
have been studying hard and practicing, the score you level off at is the
score you can expect to get on test day. And, while it is a very high stakes
test, don't kill yourself over it too much. You don't necessarily have to
score in the 160s to get into a respectable law school. And, as has been
mentioned, you don't necessarily have to attend a premier law school to have
a very successful legal career. Just walk away knowing that you gave your
best effort to studying and preparation and got a score that reflects your
ability.

If you ever have any questions, or if there is any way in which I might be
helpful to you, please let me know. I could send you some logic games
set-ups and Excel sheets with the "diagrams," if you would be interested to
see those.

Good luck to you,

Sean




From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 22 11:26:08 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 03:26:08 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS
References: <mailman.11.1290362403.23475.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<001c01cb8a0c$cebb4090$6c31c1b0$@com>
Message-ID: <114101cb8a38$100de9a0$6601a8c0@server>

Hello Sean,
Your scores are great, and it sounds as though you are doing everything in a 
way that will maximize your law school opportunities.  I think you should 
keep fighting LSAC to get the exam administered to you using jaws, because 
the difference given your practice test is definitely significant.  Where 
are you located?  I look forward to hearing from you.
All the best,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS


> Justin,
>
> I am currently preparing to take the LSAT. I was initially scheduled to 
> take
> the October administration of the test, but ran into certain points of
> disagreement with the LSAC regarding accommodations. As Joe alluded to, I
> have found the use of MS Excel to "diagram" logic games extremely helpful. 
> I
> also purchased the Kaplan books, and was provided reasonably accessible 
> pdf
> and html files. LSAC approved the use of Excel on the test, so that is
> something you may want to explore as an option. I have, thus far, been
> unsuccessful in getting LSAC to approve the use of JAWS and an e-text to
> read the reading comprehension and logical reasoning portions of the test.
> As Dennis said, it is crucial to get the score you are capable of on the
> first crack. My top score on practice tests with a human reader is 168, 
> and
> my top score using JAWS is 173. This is a very significant difference when
> applying to top schools, so I am continuing to fight LSAC on this point. I
> know of at least one case in the past where a blind student was permitted 
> to
> use JAWS and an e-text version of the exam, so I hope to be granted the 
> same
> accommodation when all is said and done.
>
> Ideally you will take the LSAT in the June or October in the year prior to
> the fall in which you wish to enroll in law school. If you can't dish out
> the $$$ for a prep course, try to read some test prep books from 
> Powerscore
> or Kaplan or the like, and take practice test after practice test. Over
> multiple practice tests, your score will level off, and, assuming that you
> have been studying hard and practicing, the score you level off at is the
> score you can expect to get on test day. And, while it is a very high 
> stakes
> test, don't kill yourself over it too much. You don't necessarily have to
> score in the 160s to get into a respectable law school. And, as has been
> mentioned, you don't necessarily have to attend a premier law school to 
> have
> a very successful legal career. Just walk away knowing that you gave your
> best effort to studying and preparation and got a score that reflects your
> ability.
>
> If you ever have any questions, or if there is any way in which I might be
> helpful to you, please let me know. I could send you some logic games
> set-ups and Excel sheets with the "diagrams," if you would be interested 
> to
> see those.
>
> Good luck to you,
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 14:15:39 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 09:15:39 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
Message-ID: <E5271A84C53745C090E5EB8C7A6EDB8C@Rufus>

Jorge,

It's pretty easy to come up with advantages to having a guide dog.  I agree
with Nicole on the ease of travel and general companionship, but for the
sake of a balanced perspective, I'll give you some negatives based on my
experience:

First, it's important to remember that the dog is a living creature.  More
to the point, they're a trained living creature, and as such, they require a
certain feeding and relieving routine.  The dog will not implode if you
don't stick to a regular schedule, but sometimes you have to forego
flexibility to keep them on a consistent pattern.  Most days this should be
fine.  Yet if you find yourself traveling and in the midst of a cluttered
agenda, this can become something of a nuisance.  It's a matter of figuring
out an acceptable place to relieve the dog, finding the proper place to
dispose of the waste and being able to find similar locations as you move
about your day.  And, no matter where you are, you should get ready to get
up fairly early every day to make sure the mess stays outside and not in.

Second, there are logistics to consider.  My German shepherd is large.  He
significantly reduces the number of people who can travel with me in a taxi.
Leg room can be a nightmare on airplanes.  Granted, this is owed to my being
a tall guy, but bus travel and other forms of transportation might see a
difference depending on the animal.  You need to pack more in your luggage
for their food, food bowls, grooming equipment and medicine, as needed.
I've never liked the view some handlers take of seeing their guide dogs as
their children, but to a certain extent, it's true that they require some
consideration about their needs as they travel with you.  Throw in a couple
toys into that there list of supplies in your luggage.

Additionally, when traveling with a dog, be prepared to wear dog hair.  You
might get lucky if you get a poodle, but otherwise, I don't care how well
you brush them, shedding is part of the deal.  Most people will of course
understand it's part of the natural course of things, but this is one reason
I've not taken my dog on job interviews.  It's a minor point, but I feel
presentation is a huge part of leaving a good first impression, because
appearance is seen differently on blind people.

Fourth, the social interaction can be pleasant sometimes.  At other times,
however, it can get tiresome.  Thankfully, because Gator is large, he gives
off the impression he is ferocious.  People would never know he's a
marshmallow, but in some cases the over attention can become irritating if
I'm rushing to get somewhere.  At other times, you figure out the only
reason people are talking to you is because of the dog, and really, who
wants to play third fiddle after the everyday sighted person and the guide
dog?

Next, there's the matter of expenses.  Most schools, I believe, offer some
form of financial assistance to their students, but one should not get a dog
if one is not prepared for or capable of maintaining it.  Dogs get sick,
sometimes seriously sick, and aside from the bills that can quickly become
astronomical, they might be out of commission for a while, leaving the
handlers in the position of needing to use a cane to temporarily move about.

Finally, be prepared to advocate for yourself.  There are far too many
public establishments that did not get the memo that service animals are
allowed in public establishments.  This does not mean every restaurant, shop
or transportation service representative will be a pinhead, but pinheads
there are a plenty, and I classify this as a disadvantage because your
activities would never be interrupted while using long white and Faithful.
Dealing with the public is not always a bad experience, but you should be
prepared for the occasional confrontation.

Now, you'd think from this list of disadvantages that I would generally
discourage people from getting a dog.  Actually, you might be correct.  Only
the people who can see the negatives to getting a dog and feel confident
about still continuing with the process should get a dog.  I've been
criticized in times past for not taking my dog everywhere I go.  I, for
example, did not see it fit to take my dog to the Trans-Siberian Orchestra
concert last week.  I will more than likely not take him to the pub when I
meet some colleagues for networking this week, but I have taken him white
water rafting.  Crazy?  Not at all.  Gator and I have an understanding.
And, it should go without say that there are exceptions to the things I've
listed and the other things I could list.  Teams develop their own routines
and understandings, but there is a fundamental core from which we all have
to build no matter what dog you get or what school you get him from.

The point is, there is no question of the chicken or the egg.  If you don't
have a good command of the cane, you have no business with a dog.  They have
bad days.  They get sick, and sometimes, unfortunately, they die.  A person
should view their dog as a travel enhancer rather than a traveling crutch.
It will keep you from unfairly seeing the dog as having the answers to all
obstacles.  When the team works well together, it's a dream team, and
there's no stopping it, but there's a lot of preparation that goes into
that.

Anyway, I hope that helps.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 



From jty727 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 14:30:17 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 09:30:17 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS
In-Reply-To: <114101cb8a38$100de9a0$6601a8c0@server>
References: <mailman.11.1290362403.23475.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<001c01cb8a0c$cebb4090$6c31c1b0$@com>
	<114101cb8a38$100de9a0$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=HG2_byZ9VUNeECow6QDobdBWEiUfEr8AjPKwz@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Sean!
Those definitely are great scores.  I definitely would be interested
in seeing those logic games which I've heard are sometimes tricky.  Do
you know of any good place to get these capplan books you and others
have been refering to?

On 11/22/10, Dennis Clark <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> Hello Sean,
> Your scores are great, and it sounds as though you are doing everything in a
> way that will maximize your law school opportunities.  I think you should
> keep fighting LSAC to get the exam administered to you using jaws, because
> the difference given your practice test is definitely significant.  Where
> are you located?  I look forward to hearing from you.
> All the best,
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2010 10:16 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS
>
>
>> Justin,
>>
>> I am currently preparing to take the LSAT. I was initially scheduled to
>> take
>> the October administration of the test, but ran into certain points of
>> disagreement with the LSAC regarding accommodations. As Joe alluded to, I
>> have found the use of MS Excel to "diagram" logic games extremely helpful.
>>
>> I
>> also purchased the Kaplan books, and was provided reasonably accessible
>> pdf
>> and html files. LSAC approved the use of Excel on the test, so that is
>> something you may want to explore as an option. I have, thus far, been
>> unsuccessful in getting LSAC to approve the use of JAWS and an e-text to
>> read the reading comprehension and logical reasoning portions of the test.
>> As Dennis said, it is crucial to get the score you are capable of on the
>> first crack. My top score on practice tests with a human reader is 168,
>> and
>> my top score using JAWS is 173. This is a very significant difference when
>> applying to top schools, so I am continuing to fight LSAC on this point. I
>> know of at least one case in the past where a blind student was permitted
>> to
>> use JAWS and an e-text version of the exam, so I hope to be granted the
>> same
>> accommodation when all is said and done.
>>
>> Ideally you will take the LSAT in the June or October in the year prior to
>> the fall in which you wish to enroll in law school. If you can't dish out
>> the $$$ for a prep course, try to read some test prep books from
>> Powerscore
>> or Kaplan or the like, and take practice test after practice test. Over
>> multiple practice tests, your score will level off, and, assuming that you
>> have been studying hard and practicing, the score you level off at is the
>> score you can expect to get on test day. And, while it is a very high
>> stakes
>> test, don't kill yourself over it too much. You don't necessarily have to
>> score in the 160s to get into a respectable law school. And, as has been
>> mentioned, you don't necessarily have to attend a premier law school to
>> have
>> a very successful legal career. Just walk away knowing that you gave your
>> best effort to studying and preparation and got a score that reflects your
>> ability.
>>
>> If you ever have any questions, or if there is any way in which I might be
>> helpful to you, please let me know. I could send you some logic games
>> set-ups and Excel sheets with the "diagrams," if you would be interested
>> to
>> see those.
>>
>> Good luck to you,
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Mon Nov 22 17:33:38 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 09:33:38 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
	<E5271A84C53745C090E5EB8C7A6EDB8C@Rufus>
Message-ID: <0C8CABF4C61B4CDF8DB077161450CA00@stanford.edu>

Well said, Joe. I was going to add in some of that in a later message. Being 
a full time college student, I can definitely testify to some of those 
points, but, as Joe said, I know what my dog needs, and I am able/willing to 
do it.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joe Orozco" <jsorozco at gmail.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 6:15 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> Jorge,
>
> It's pretty easy to come up with advantages to having a guide dog.  I 
> agree
> with Nicole on the ease of travel and general companionship, but for the
> sake of a balanced perspective, I'll give you some negatives based on my
> experience:
>
> First, it's important to remember that the dog is a living creature.  More
> to the point, they're a trained living creature, and as such, they require 
> a
> certain feeding and relieving routine.  The dog will not implode if you
> don't stick to a regular schedule, but sometimes you have to forego
> flexibility to keep them on a consistent pattern.  Most days this should 
> be
> fine.  Yet if you find yourself traveling and in the midst of a cluttered
> agenda, this can become something of a nuisance.  It's a matter of 
> figuring
> out an acceptable place to relieve the dog, finding the proper place to
> dispose of the waste and being able to find similar locations as you move
> about your day.  And, no matter where you are, you should get ready to get
> up fairly early every day to make sure the mess stays outside and not in.
>
> Second, there are logistics to consider.  My German shepherd is large.  He
> significantly reduces the number of people who can travel with me in a 
> taxi.
> Leg room can be a nightmare on airplanes.  Granted, this is owed to my 
> being
> a tall guy, but bus travel and other forms of transportation might see a
> difference depending on the animal.  You need to pack more in your luggage
> for their food, food bowls, grooming equipment and medicine, as needed.
> I've never liked the view some handlers take of seeing their guide dogs as
> their children, but to a certain extent, it's true that they require some
> consideration about their needs as they travel with you.  Throw in a 
> couple
> toys into that there list of supplies in your luggage.
>
> Additionally, when traveling with a dog, be prepared to wear dog hair. 
> You
> might get lucky if you get a poodle, but otherwise, I don't care how well
> you brush them, shedding is part of the deal.  Most people will of course
> understand it's part of the natural course of things, but this is one 
> reason
> I've not taken my dog on job interviews.  It's a minor point, but I feel
> presentation is a huge part of leaving a good first impression, because
> appearance is seen differently on blind people.
>
> Fourth, the social interaction can be pleasant sometimes.  At other times,
> however, it can get tiresome.  Thankfully, because Gator is large, he 
> gives
> off the impression he is ferocious.  People would never know he's a
> marshmallow, but in some cases the over attention can become irritating if
> I'm rushing to get somewhere.  At other times, you figure out the only
> reason people are talking to you is because of the dog, and really, who
> wants to play third fiddle after the everyday sighted person and the guide
> dog?
>
> Next, there's the matter of expenses.  Most schools, I believe, offer some
> form of financial assistance to their students, but one should not get a 
> dog
> if one is not prepared for or capable of maintaining it.  Dogs get sick,
> sometimes seriously sick, and aside from the bills that can quickly become
> astronomical, they might be out of commission for a while, leaving the
> handlers in the position of needing to use a cane to temporarily move 
> about.
>
> Finally, be prepared to advocate for yourself.  There are far too many
> public establishments that did not get the memo that service animals are
> allowed in public establishments.  This does not mean every restaurant, 
> shop
> or transportation service representative will be a pinhead, but pinheads
> there are a plenty, and I classify this as a disadvantage because your
> activities would never be interrupted while using long white and Faithful.
> Dealing with the public is not always a bad experience, but you should be
> prepared for the occasional confrontation.
>
> Now, you'd think from this list of disadvantages that I would generally
> discourage people from getting a dog.  Actually, you might be correct. 
> Only
> the people who can see the negatives to getting a dog and feel confident
> about still continuing with the process should get a dog.  I've been
> criticized in times past for not taking my dog everywhere I go.  I, for
> example, did not see it fit to take my dog to the Trans-Siberian Orchestra
> concert last week.  I will more than likely not take him to the pub when I
> meet some colleagues for networking this week, but I have taken him white
> water rafting.  Crazy?  Not at all.  Gator and I have an understanding.
> And, it should go without say that there are exceptions to the things I've
> listed and the other things I could list.  Teams develop their own 
> routines
> and understandings, but there is a fundamental core from which we all have
> to build no matter what dog you get or what school you get him from.
>
> The point is, there is no question of the chicken or the egg.  If you 
> don't
> have a good command of the cane, you have no business with a dog.  They 
> have
> bad days.  They get sick, and sometimes, unfortunately, they die.  A 
> person
> should view their dog as a travel enhancer rather than a traveling crutch.
> It will keep you from unfairly seeing the dog as having the answers to all
> obstacles.  When the team works well together, it's a dream team, and
> there's no stopping it, but there's a lot of preparation that goes into
> that.
>
> Anyway, I hope that helps.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 17:32:52 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 12:32:52 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs?
In-Reply-To: <FDA52DC2-9CFF-4889-AAF5-1271F2EF7845@gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTi=hRahM-6WOff0RZ5V_cikMYh-_eciMj+sL-KzU@mail.gmail.com>
	<9C27C778700640C2893BCBD51A1E42C9@Rufus>
	<AANLkTi=2obGaB6EU3x+nEK3VT6yanrsVkap0v=3y9aH8@mail.gmail.com>
	<FDA52DC2-9CFF-4889-AAF5-1271F2EF7845@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinauMTPRHUNjuKALCQ+9CETfpVWCjAvvk1qq=pF@mail.gmail.com>

What is the trouble you are having with Google Calendar, Arielle? I
find it pretty accessible, though it can take forever to find what you
want. It's not so much an access issue to me, but a poor design issue.

Anyone else feel cheated that Google provides an accessible version
that is inferior to the standard GMail?

On 11/19/10, Ignasi Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> I find google calendar very accessible. At least under Mac OS X it works
> just fine. I've heard that google docs does not work though, but I haven't
> personally tried it.
> On Nov 19, 2010, at 3:37 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>
>> Yes, I find it quite frustrating that Google Mail (Gmail) has the
>> accessible basic HTML option, but Google Docs and Google Calendar do
>> not, making them largely inaccessible.
>>
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 11/17/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Me thinks there's another NFB lawsuit in the works?  I put that out there
>>> with an air of sarcasm, but I actually think this is something the NFB
>>> should have started working on a while ago.  It's a platform that not
>>> only
>>> impacts students but the professional world as well, especially if
>>> Microsoft
>>> and other major players are moving more and more toward cloud computing.
>>>
>>> To answer your question, OffiSync is one work-around.  You'll find it,
>>> ironically, by Googling it, though it might be its own domain.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their
>>> sleeves,
>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith
>>> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 2:29 PM
>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Google Docs?
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Has anyone here used Google Docs to manage documents, presentations,
>>> or spreadsheets, and how accessible are they?
>>>
>>> My University has partnered with Google which gives all students easy
>>> access to many of Google's services, and I'm finding that both small
>>> groups and professors are using Google Docs more and more. I've heard
>>> that some of Google's offerings aren't screen-reader friendly. Does
>>> anyone have experience using Google Docs?
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Brice Smith
>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations
>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com
>>> (919) 637-1028
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
>>> info for nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
>>> %40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 18:12:02 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 13:12:02 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come True This
	Holiday Season
Message-ID: <7A36E2BD005A41828892770A232239B7@AudioShockWave>

This is the only message about this I intend to send out to this list.
Hello!
I do not wish to bother everyone with this, and I deeply apologize if you get this multiple times. I do hope however that even if you don't care about the following message that you would at least pass it along to someone who might care.

Greetings All!
It's that time of year..That time for mistletoe and Christmas trees..That time where we think of those in need the most..And that's what we're doing on The Audio Shockwave Network and AudioMirrorFM!
We've decided to try to bring some holiday cheer to a young child who may be  dying or suffering from an illness he/she will never recover from.
So we are doing The Make A Wish Holiday Giveaway!
>From now til December 19, 2010 at 8 PM eastern, AudioMirrorFM, along with the other stations on the Audio Shockwave Network (mojoradio and 2020TheBlink) are giving you the chance to bring some holiday cheer to a child!
All you have to do is go to
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
There, you'll see a button that, when clicked, will take you to the paypal page where you can enter in the amount you'd like to donate. There's no minimum or maximum. A donation is a donation, no matter how small or large. And you don't have to have a paypal account either!
On December 19, we'll announce the amount of money we'll be giving to Make A Wish, and all those who donated will be eligible to win prizes, which could be anything from gift cards to netflix subscriptions and more..
All names will be drawn during the show, which will be aired on all stations on the network, so make sure after you donate that you send an email to
djd at audiomirrorfm.com
with your name and email address so we can contact you about your prize!
And speaking of prizes, if you have something you'd like to offer for a prize instead of money, email
djd at audiomirrorfm.com
and let me know what you'd like to offer.
Again, the link is
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
where you can make your donation and track how much we've raised.
Come and let's make a child's wish come true this holiday season!
>From David Dunphy, Co-manager, AudioMirrorFM
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com

******
Looking for a unique sound and different definition of what awesome internet radio is all about? Looking to listen to and interact with a group of djs who strive for professionalism, but are fun and respect their listeners?
Look no further than AudioMirrorFM, a station with broadcasters from all over the world who play different types of music and enjoy interacting with you the listener. We're a group of broadcasters who love what we do, and we want to share that love with anyone who wants to tune in! So come on by and give us a look
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com

From dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net  Mon Nov 22 18:42:51 2010
From: dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net (Dennis Clark)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 10:42:51 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come True
	ThisHoliday Season
References: <7A36E2BD005A41828892770A232239B7@AudioShockWave>
Message-ID: <118e01cb8a75$124e5000$6601a8c0@server>

Hello,
What percentage of the money donated will be going to Make A Wish?  Thank 
you.
All the best,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:12 AM
Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come True 
ThisHoliday Season


> This is the only message about this I intend to send out to this list.
> Hello!
> I do not wish to bother everyone with this, and I deeply apologize if you 
> get this multiple times. I do hope however that even if you don't care 
> about the following message that you would at least pass it along to 
> someone who might care.
>
> Greetings All!
> It's that time of year..That time for mistletoe and Christmas trees..That 
> time where we think of those in need the most..And that's what we're doing 
> on The Audio Shockwave Network and AudioMirrorFM!
> We've decided to try to bring some holiday cheer to a young child who may 
> be  dying or suffering from an illness he/she will never recover from.
> So we are doing The Make A Wish Holiday Giveaway!
>>From now til December 19, 2010 at 8 PM eastern, AudioMirrorFM, along with 
>>the other stations on the Audio Shockwave Network (mojoradio and 
>>2020TheBlink) are giving you the chance to bring some holiday cheer to a 
>>child!
> All you have to do is go to
> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
> There, you'll see a button that, when clicked, will take you to the paypal 
> page where you can enter in the amount you'd like to donate. There's no 
> minimum or maximum. A donation is a donation, no matter how small or 
> large. And you don't have to have a paypal account either!
> On December 19, we'll announce the amount of money we'll be giving to Make 
> A Wish, and all those who donated will be eligible to win prizes, which 
> could be anything from gift cards to netflix subscriptions and more..
> All names will be drawn during the show, which will be aired on all 
> stations on the network, so make sure after you donate that you send an 
> email to
> djd at audiomirrorfm.com
> with your name and email address so we can contact you about your prize!
> And speaking of prizes, if you have something you'd like to offer for a 
> prize instead of money, email
> djd at audiomirrorfm.com
> and let me know what you'd like to offer.
> Again, the link is
> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
> where you can make your donation and track how much we've raised.
> Come and let's make a child's wish come true this holiday season!
>>From David Dunphy, Co-manager, AudioMirrorFM
> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com
>
> ******
> Looking for a unique sound and different definition of what awesome 
> internet radio is all about? Looking to listen to and interact with a 
> group of djs who strive for professionalism, but are fun and respect their 
> listeners?
> Look no further than AudioMirrorFM, a station with broadcasters from all 
> over the world who play different types of music and enjoy interacting 
> with you the listener. We're a group of broadcasters who love what we do, 
> and we want to share that love with anyone who wants to tune in! So come 
> on by and give us a look
> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net 



From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com  Mon Nov 22 18:50:47 2010
From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 12:50:47 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come True
	ThisHoliday Season
References: <7A36E2BD005A41828892770A232239B7@AudioShockWave>
Message-ID: <001b01cb8a76$2d71d540$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>

Good afternoon everyone,

    I wasn't planning on having a spam sandwich for lunch but it looks like 
I got one.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come True 
ThisHoliday Season


This is the only message about this I intend to send out to this list.
Hello!
I do not wish to bother everyone with this, and I deeply apologize if you 
get this multiple times. I do hope however that even if you don't care about 
the following message that you would at least pass it along to someone who 
might care.

Greetings All!
It's that time of year..That time for mistletoe and Christmas trees..That 
time where we think of those in need the most..And that's what we're doing 
on The Audio Shockwave Network and AudioMirrorFM!
We've decided to try to bring some holiday cheer to a young child who may be 
dying or suffering from an illness he/she will never recover from.
So we are doing The Make A Wish Holiday Giveaway!
>From now til December 19, 2010 at 8 PM eastern, AudioMirrorFM, along with 
>the other stations on the Audio Shockwave Network (mojoradio and 
>2020TheBlink) are giving you the chance to bring some holiday cheer to a 
>child!
All you have to do is go to
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
There, you'll see a button that, when clicked, will take you to the paypal 
page where you can enter in the amount you'd like to donate. There's no 
minimum or maximum. A donation is a donation, no matter how small or large. 
And you don't have to have a paypal account either!
On December 19, we'll announce the amount of money we'll be giving to Make A 
Wish, and all those who donated will be eligible to win prizes, which could 
be anything from gift cards to netflix subscriptions and more..
All names will be drawn during the show, which will be aired on all stations 
on the network, so make sure after you donate that you send an email to
djd at audiomirrorfm.com
with your name and email address so we can contact you about your prize!
And speaking of prizes, if you have something you'd like to offer for a 
prize instead of money, email
djd at audiomirrorfm.com
and let me know what you'd like to offer.
Again, the link is
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
where you can make your donation and track how much we've raised.
Come and let's make a child's wish come true this holiday season!
>From David Dunphy, Co-manager, AudioMirrorFM
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com

******
Looking for a unique sound and different definition of what awesome internet 
radio is all about? Looking to listen to and interact with a group of djs 
who strive for professionalism, but are fun and respect their listeners?
Look no further than AudioMirrorFM, a station with broadcasters from all 
over the world who play different types of music and enjoy interacting with 
you the listener. We're a group of broadcasters who love what we do, and we 
want to share that love with anyone who wants to tune in! So come on by and 
give us a look
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com 



From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 19:08:23 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:08:23 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come
	TrueThisHoliday Season
References: <7A36E2BD005A41828892770A232239B7@AudioShockWave>
	<118e01cb8a75$124e5000$6601a8c0@server>
Message-ID: <A0EDBBAB89CD4126BF3453D03933046D@AudioShockWave>

100 percent goes to Make A Wish.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dennis Clark" <dennisgclark at sbcglobal.net>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come 
TrueThisHoliday Season


> Hello,
> What percentage of the money donated will be going to Make A Wish?  Thank 
> you.
> All the best,
> Dennis
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 10:12 AM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come True 
> ThisHoliday Season
>
>
>> This is the only message about this I intend to send out to this list.
>> Hello!
>> I do not wish to bother everyone with this, and I deeply apologize if you 
>> get this multiple times. I do hope however that even if you don't care 
>> about the following message that you would at least pass it along to 
>> someone who might care.
>>
>> Greetings All!
>> It's that time of year..That time for mistletoe and Christmas trees..That 
>> time where we think of those in need the most..And that's what we're 
>> doing on The Audio Shockwave Network and AudioMirrorFM!
>> We've decided to try to bring some holiday cheer to a young child who may 
>> be  dying or suffering from an illness he/she will never recover from.
>> So we are doing The Make A Wish Holiday Giveaway!
>>>From now til December 19, 2010 at 8 PM eastern, AudioMirrorFM, along with 
>>>the other stations on the Audio Shockwave Network (mojoradio and 
>>>2020TheBlink) are giving you the chance to bring some holiday cheer to a 
>>>child!
>> All you have to do is go to
>> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
>> There, you'll see a button that, when clicked, will take you to the 
>> paypal page where you can enter in the amount you'd like to donate. 
>> There's no minimum or maximum. A donation is a donation, no matter how 
>> small or large. And you don't have to have a paypal account either!
>> On December 19, we'll announce the amount of money we'll be giving to 
>> Make A Wish, and all those who donated will be eligible to win prizes, 
>> which could be anything from gift cards to netflix subscriptions and 
>> more..
>> All names will be drawn during the show, which will be aired on all 
>> stations on the network, so make sure after you donate that you send an 
>> email to
>> djd at audiomirrorfm.com
>> with your name and email address so we can contact you about your prize!
>> And speaking of prizes, if you have something you'd like to offer for a 
>> prize instead of money, email
>> djd at audiomirrorfm.com
>> and let me know what you'd like to offer.
>> Again, the link is
>> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
>> where you can make your donation and track how much we've raised.
>> Come and let's make a child's wish come true this holiday season!
>>>From David Dunphy, Co-manager, AudioMirrorFM
>> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com
>>
>> ******
>> Looking for a unique sound and different definition of what awesome 
>> internet radio is all about? Looking to listen to and interact with a 
>> group of djs who strive for professionalism, but are fun and respect 
>> their listeners?
>> Look no further than AudioMirrorFM, a station with broadcasters from all 
>> over the world who play different types of music and enjoy interacting 
>> with you the listener. We're a group of broadcasters who love what we do, 
>> and we want to share that love with anyone who wants to tune in! So come 
>> on by and give us a look
>> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dennisgclark%40sbcglobal.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com 



From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 19:09:02 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (David Dunphy)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:09:02 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come
	TrueThisHoliday Season
References: <7A36E2BD005A41828892770A232239B7@AudioShockWave>
	<001b01cb8a76$2d71d540$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <3280783A4C8E453A815731540CE1A6AA@AudioShockWave>

I'm glad Peter no child has to count on you for a wish. They'd die in 
misery.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come 
TrueThisHoliday Season


> Good afternoon everyone,
>
>    I wasn't planning on having a spam sandwich for lunch but it looks like
> I got one.
>
> Peter Donahue
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:12 PM
> Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come True
> ThisHoliday Season
>
>
> This is the only message about this I intend to send out to this list.
> Hello!
> I do not wish to bother everyone with this, and I deeply apologize if you
> get this multiple times. I do hope however that even if you don't care 
> about
> the following message that you would at least pass it along to someone who
> might care.
>
> Greetings All!
> It's that time of year..That time for mistletoe and Christmas trees..That
> time where we think of those in need the most..And that's what we're doing
> on The Audio Shockwave Network and AudioMirrorFM!
> We've decided to try to bring some holiday cheer to a young child who may 
> be
> dying or suffering from an illness he/she will never recover from.
> So we are doing The Make A Wish Holiday Giveaway!
>>From now til December 19, 2010 at 8 PM eastern, AudioMirrorFM, along with
>>the other stations on the Audio Shockwave Network (mojoradio and
>>2020TheBlink) are giving you the chance to bring some holiday cheer to a
>>child!
> All you have to do is go to
> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
> There, you'll see a button that, when clicked, will take you to the paypal
> page where you can enter in the amount you'd like to donate. There's no
> minimum or maximum. A donation is a donation, no matter how small or 
> large.
> And you don't have to have a paypal account either!
> On December 19, we'll announce the amount of money we'll be giving to Make 
> A
> Wish, and all those who donated will be eligible to win prizes, which 
> could
> be anything from gift cards to netflix subscriptions and more..
> All names will be drawn during the show, which will be aired on all 
> stations
> on the network, so make sure after you donate that you send an email to
> djd at audiomirrorfm.com
> with your name and email address so we can contact you about your prize!
> And speaking of prizes, if you have something you'd like to offer for a
> prize instead of money, email
> djd at audiomirrorfm.com
> and let me know what you'd like to offer.
> Again, the link is
> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
> where you can make your donation and track how much we've raised.
> Come and let's make a child's wish come true this holiday season!
>>From David Dunphy, Co-manager, AudioMirrorFM
> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com
>
> ******
> Looking for a unique sound and different definition of what awesome 
> internet
> radio is all about? Looking to listen to and interact with a group of djs
> who strive for professionalism, but are fun and respect their listeners?
> Look no further than AudioMirrorFM, a station with broadcasters from all
> over the world who play different types of music and enjoy interacting 
> with
> you the listener. We're a group of broadcasters who love what we do, and 
> we
> want to share that love with anyone who wants to tune in! So come on by 
> and
> give us a look
> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com
> 



From oliver.doug1 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 19:15:13 2010
From: oliver.doug1 at gmail.com (Doug Oliver)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 13:15:13 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish
	ComeTrueThisHoliday Season
References: <7A36E2BD005A41828892770A232239B7@AudioShockWave><001b01cb8a76$2d71d540$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
	<3280783A4C8E453A815731540CE1A6AA@AudioShockWave>
Message-ID: <6E0DA0C7F98D42C6B9DDD5B91713F00E@ownereb7ed6c35>

Children are very important this holiday season,
They do need toys and stuf for Christmas. Most importantly they do need love 
too.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish 
ComeTrueThisHoliday Season


> I'm glad Peter no child has to count on you for a wish. They'd die in 
> misery.
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Peter Donahue" <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:50 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come 
> TrueThisHoliday Season
>
>
>> Good afternoon everyone,
>>
>>    I wasn't planning on having a spam sandwich for lunch but it looks 
>> like
>> I got one.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:12 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come True
>> ThisHoliday Season
>>
>>
>> This is the only message about this I intend to send out to this list.
>> Hello!
>> I do not wish to bother everyone with this, and I deeply apologize if you
>> get this multiple times. I do hope however that even if you don't care 
>> about
>> the following message that you would at least pass it along to someone 
>> who
>> might care.
>>
>> Greetings All!
>> It's that time of year..That time for mistletoe and Christmas trees..That
>> time where we think of those in need the most..And that's what we're 
>> doing
>> on The Audio Shockwave Network and AudioMirrorFM!
>> We've decided to try to bring some holiday cheer to a young child who may 
>> be
>> dying or suffering from an illness he/she will never recover from.
>> So we are doing The Make A Wish Holiday Giveaway!
>>>From now til December 19, 2010 at 8 PM eastern, AudioMirrorFM, along with
>>>the other stations on the Audio Shockwave Network (mojoradio and
>>>2020TheBlink) are giving you the chance to bring some holiday cheer to a
>>>child!
>> All you have to do is go to
>> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
>> There, you'll see a button that, when clicked, will take you to the 
>> paypal
>> page where you can enter in the amount you'd like to donate. There's no
>> minimum or maximum. A donation is a donation, no matter how small or 
>> large.
>> And you don't have to have a paypal account either!
>> On December 19, we'll announce the amount of money we'll be giving to 
>> Make A
>> Wish, and all those who donated will be eligible to win prizes, which 
>> could
>> be anything from gift cards to netflix subscriptions and more..
>> All names will be drawn during the show, which will be aired on all 
>> stations
>> on the network, so make sure after you donate that you send an email to
>> djd at audiomirrorfm.com
>> with your name and email address so we can contact you about your prize!
>> And speaking of prizes, if you have something you'd like to offer for a
>> prize instead of money, email
>> djd at audiomirrorfm.com
>> and let me know what you'd like to offer.
>> Again, the link is
>> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
>> where you can make your donation and track how much we've raised.
>> Come and let's make a child's wish come true this holiday season!
>>>From David Dunphy, Co-manager, AudioMirrorFM
>> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com
>>
>> ******
>> Looking for a unique sound and different definition of what awesome 
>> internet
>> radio is all about? Looking to listen to and interact with a group of djs
>> who strive for professionalism, but are fun and respect their listeners?
>> Look no further than AudioMirrorFM, a station with broadcasters from all
>> over the world who play different types of music and enjoy interacting 
>> with
>> you the listener. We're a group of broadcasters who love what we do, and 
>> we
>> want to share that love with anyone who wants to tune in! So come on by 
>> and
>> give us a look
>> http://www.audiomirrorfm.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/djdrocks4ever%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/oliver.doug1%40gmail.com 



From jsorozco at gmail.com  Mon Nov 22 19:20:21 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 14:20:21 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come
	TrueThisHoliday Season
In-Reply-To: <001b01cb8a76$2d71d540$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
References: <7A36E2BD005A41828892770A232239B7@AudioShockWave>
	<001b01cb8a76$2d71d540$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn>
Message-ID: <6341B43162064DAFA2F4F08836E92649@Rufus>

Peter,

Come now.  That's not entirely fair.  Do you know how many times I got the
exact same thing when I wrote people about that Pepsi Challenge thing the
NFB was doing?

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Peter Donahue
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:51 PM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish 
Come TrueThisHoliday Season

Good afternoon everyone,

    I wasn't planning on having a spam sandwich for lunch but 
it looks like 
I got one.

Peter Donahue

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Dunphy" <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Help AudioMirrorFM Make A Child's Wish Come True 
ThisHoliday Season


This is the only message about this I intend to send out to this list.
Hello!
I do not wish to bother everyone with this, and I deeply 
apologize if you 
get this multiple times. I do hope however that even if you 
don't care about 
the following message that you would at least pass it along to 
someone who 
might care.

Greetings All!
It's that time of year..That time for mistletoe and Christmas 
trees..That 
time where we think of those in need the most..And that's what 
we're doing 
on The Audio Shockwave Network and AudioMirrorFM!
We've decided to try to bring some holiday cheer to a young 
child who may be 
dying or suffering from an illness he/she will never recover from.
So we are doing The Make A Wish Holiday Giveaway!
>From now til December 19, 2010 at 8 PM eastern, AudioMirrorFM, 
along with 
>the other stations on the Audio Shockwave Network (mojoradio and 
>2020TheBlink) are giving you the chance to bring some holiday 
cheer to a 
>child!
All you have to do is go to
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
There, you'll see a button that, when clicked, will take you to 
the paypal 
page where you can enter in the amount you'd like to donate. There's no 
minimum or maximum. A donation is a donation, no matter how 
small or large. 
And you don't have to have a paypal account either!
On December 19, we'll announce the amount of money we'll be 
giving to Make A 
Wish, and all those who donated will be eligible to win prizes, 
which could 
be anything from gift cards to netflix subscriptions and more..
All names will be drawn during the show, which will be aired on 
all stations 
on the network, so make sure after you donate that you send an email to
djd at audiomirrorfm.com
with your name and email address so we can contact you about your prize!
And speaking of prizes, if you have something you'd like to offer for a 
prize instead of money, email
djd at audiomirrorfm.com
and let me know what you'd like to offer.
Again, the link is
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com/giveaway.html
where you can make your donation and track how much we've raised.
Come and let's make a child's wish come true this holiday season!
>From David Dunphy, Co-manager, AudioMirrorFM
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com

******
Looking for a unique sound and different definition of what 
awesome internet 
radio is all about? Looking to listen to and interact with a 
group of djs 
who strive for professionalism, but are fun and respect their listeners?
Look no further than AudioMirrorFM, a station with broadcasters 
from all 
over the world who play different types of music and enjoy 
interacting with 
you the listener. We're a group of broadcasters who love what 
we do, and we 
want to share that love with anyone who wants to tune in! So 
come on by and 
give us a look
http://www.audiomirrorfm.com
_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue
2%40satx.rr.com 


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
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%40gmail.com



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 22 22:16:56 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 17:16:56 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS
References: <mailman.11.1290362403.23475.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<001c01cb8a0c$cebb4090$6c31c1b0$@com>
Message-ID: <C0CDF25B3045446BB5DCEBFF23ADCB97@Ashley>

I think you should be able to take the test with a human reader or jaws. 
That's terrible they won't allow jaws.  Hope you win the fight.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 1:16 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS


> Justin,
>
> I am currently preparing to take the LSAT. I was initially scheduled to 
> take
> the October administration of the test, but ran into certain points of
> disagreement with the LSAC regarding accommodations. As Joe alluded to, I
> have found the use of MS Excel to "diagram" logic games extremely helpful. 
> I
> also purchased the Kaplan books, and was provided reasonably accessible 
> pdf
> and html files. LSAC approved the use of Excel on the test, so that is
> something you may want to explore as an option. I have, thus far, been
> unsuccessful in getting LSAC to approve the use of JAWS and an e-text to
> read the reading comprehension and logical reasoning portions of the test.
> As Dennis said, it is crucial to get the score you are capable of on the
> first crack. My top score on practice tests with a human reader is 168, 
> and
> my top score using JAWS is 173. This is a very significant difference when
> applying to top schools, so I am continuing to fight LSAC on this point. I
> know of at least one case in the past where a blind student was permitted 
> to
> use JAWS and an e-text version of the exam, so I hope to be granted the 
> same
> accommodation when all is said and done.
>
> Ideally you will take the LSAT in the June or October in the year prior to
> the fall in which you wish to enroll in law school. If you can't dish out
> the $$$ for a prep course, try to read some test prep books from 
> Powerscore
> or Kaplan or the like, and take practice test after practice test. Over
> multiple practice tests, your score will level off, and, assuming that you
> have been studying hard and practicing, the score you level off at is the
> score you can expect to get on test day. And, while it is a very high 
> stakes
> test, don't kill yourself over it too much. You don't necessarily have to
> score in the 160s to get into a respectable law school. And, as has been
> mentioned, you don't necessarily have to attend a premier law school to 
> have
> a very successful legal career. Just walk away knowing that you gave your
> best effort to studying and preparation and got a score that reflects your
> ability.
>
> If you ever have any questions, or if there is any way in which I might be
> helpful to you, please let me know. I could send you some logic games
> set-ups and Excel sheets with the "diagrams," if you would be interested 
> to
> see those.
>
> Good luck to you,
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From kerrik2006 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 00:17:12 2010
From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 19:17:12 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Report on the football/basketball game
Message-ID: <AANLkTikSo6nvNKYDMABV2vR7fFtA7ipqyRQnK7Qy=Y+b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All!

Sorry for the long delay.

Things for the basketball/football game went okay.

For the basketball game I did excellent. I used my cane the entire time.

I got directions in when I was dropped off and walked in by myself.
There were a million people around to follow and I could tell when I
was nearing the door because the sound of my cane changed and I could
smell the inside of the building (the Coliseum has a distinct smell.)

As soon as I walked in someone took my ticket. I was introduced to a
man named Jason who would walk me to my seat.

Instead of taking his arm though, I asked him if he could walk beside
me and give me directions. We had to walk all the way across the
Coliseum to the other side to get to the seats.

While we were walking he said "You do good with that stick." I
explained that it was a white cane and that it helps me get around,
and that I am much more independent when I use it and it conveys much
more information to me than when I take someone's arm.

We arrived at my seat and I was so excited...I had just walked all
across the Coliseum by myself without being guided.

I thanked Jason for giving such good directions and allowing me to use
my cane...some people don't like giving directions or act strangely
but he did really well!

At halftime, I was starving so decided to get a hotdog.

I wasn't sure where the concession stand was but because I had used my
cane I had some idea of where to go.

After asking a few people for directions (they all gave directions and
did not guide) I made it to the concession stand, got my hotdogs, and
went back.

Again I was so excited with myself.

When the game was over I knew I needed to get back to the door I was
dropped off at and I knew it was on the other side of the coliseum.

There is a walkway between the seats. On one side are the seats, and
on the other is a wall with openings to hallways you can turn down.
There was noone around, so I just guessed which direction to start
heading. I had a pretty good feeling I was going the right way because
I had used the cane to get to the seats so was pretty sure of how to
reverse.

I ran into several people along the way, and they reassured me I was
going the right way. I walked fast, confidently.

After walking a while, I ran into someone else who told me I had
passed the opening to turn down to get to the blue gate. I turned
around and it was right there;I had just passed it.

I turned into the opening and began walking toward the door.

Just as I had done with coming in I sort of followed all the people
who were also going to the door. I could also feel the cold air coming
from outside.

As I was at the rug that led to the doors, I heard a little girl from
somewhere amongst all the people say something like "Mommy where is
she going? Does she know where she is going?" tThere were a ton of
people around so it was hard to hear, but I thought I heard the mother
reply "Shhhh, let her walk."

I also ran into three people I knew.

I went outside and found the curb with no problem. Again, because I
used my cane I vaguely knew where to go.

The next day was the football game. At the very last minute, my mother
decided she wanted to go to the football game with me since we did
have an extra ticket. Because it was my birthday, and I wanted to
spend time with Mom, I decided she could come with me. However, Things
did not go so well at the football game. I tried to compromise with
Mom to let me have some independent travel, and I tried to do what you
guys suggested: pay attention to where we were going. To make a long
story short, I did get to use my cane with Mom giving directions to
get out of the stadium and it went okay. I think looking back I
could've done the entire thing by myself...there are ushers at the
bottom of the steps to every section, everyone ws very nice, and they
even have a texting program where you can text the word "aid" to a
certain number if you need assistance and someone will come over to
help you. I found out later the reason Mom did not let me use my cane
more during the game was because she doesn't think I am good enough
with it in "dangerous" situations. She was mainly afraid I would fall
on the concrete steps and hurt myself, however as I pointed out my
cane is long enough that it comes to steps two steps ahead and I cover
very well so I get plenty of warning. I have never fallen or gotten
hurt when using my cane;if anything it has prevented many injuries.

I was initially very upset with Mom for not trusting me. However, last
Monday was my actual birthday and I was determined to make up for the
lack of cane use during the football game and use my cane the entire
day since it was my birthday.

We first went to a restaurant for lunch. There were three of us;me, my
mother, and her friend. After I had ordered (I was first) instead of
standing around waiting for the others to order, I took off and went
exploring to try to find us a table. I came to the cluster of tables
and went around to each table and checked to see if there were three
seats. Eventually I came to one which had three chairs and sat down.
So, for the first time I had found us all a table on my own.

After we had finished, my mother was talking to her friend outside
before they parted. I was going to go with her to Target to get some
new clothes. I wanted a refill on my drink so again got up, tand took
off in search of the fountain. Soon, and after asking a couple of
people I found it and got more Coke.

At Target again I used my cane the entire time. I had to try on
several pairs of jeans and since we could not find any pairs that fit
we had to go from the dressing room across the store , to the isles of
jeans and back sevral times. With mom giving directions I used the
cane. It came to every obsticle;the isles were very narrow with racks
of clothing on each side and various obsticles sitting between them
where you could walk. The cane to everything; and each time it hit an
obsticle or I successfully went through a very narrow isle I called to
Mom, who was in front of me "See how the cane comes to these things?"

Even though I did not get to use my cane as much as I would've liked
at the football game, I'd like to think I made up for it on my
birthday. I hope my mother saw and really realized how the cane
prevents me from getting hurt and how it comes to every obsticle and
how I can navigate narrow isles/passageways without runnning into
anything with my body.

I learned a lot from the three days. You do never know who you run
into; the people who saw me at the basketball game and target saw a
blind girl who was using her cane independently; they did not see a
blind girl holding onto someone's arm.

I wonder what kind of discussion that little girl and her mother had
afterwords in the car. Maybe the mother was able to educate the little
girl on independence of blind people.

Now, if Jason ever escorts another blind person at a basketball game
he will know the stick is actually a white cane and that it symbolizes
independence.

I now know how to manage my mother when she is worried or is
overprotective;I just take off.

I am very proud of myself for not only using my cane but for the
independence I was able to show to those who saw me, and to those who
encountered me. This makes me want to work even harder to not back
down to those who want to overly help and really really use my cane in
every situation.

Thanks for all your help;without your encouragement and advice I'm not
sure I would've been able to do the basketball game by myself.

There is one more home football game left on Dec. 5. Who knows, I may
just take off with my cane and try doing it alone just like the
basketball game.

Kerri


From mbdebus at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 23 00:27:24 2010
From: mbdebus at yahoo.com (Beth Debus)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 16:27:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nabs-l] FREE screen reader notes from Ohio student division meeting
Message-ID: <703444.9769.qm@web114020.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hi everyone, I'm attaching some notes from the last Ohio student division meeting you might find helpful. This is a list of FREE screen readers.
 
Beth


      
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From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 00:31:50 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 19:31:50 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] FREE screen reader notes from Ohio student division
	meeting
References: <703444.9769.qm@web114020.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CC39A2F5FB8E4940AD2A4861B85B4C8D@hometwxakonvzn>

Thanks Beth! Do you use skype? my skype name is smallistbaby1979 if you want 
to add me. RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Beth Debus" <mbdebus at yahoo.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:27 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] FREE screen reader notes from Ohio student division 
meeting


Hi everyone, I'm attaching some notes from the last Ohio student division 
meeting you might find helpful. This is a list of FREE screen readers.

Beth





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
> 



From mbdebus at yahoo.com  Tue Nov 23 00:54:43 2010
From: mbdebus at yahoo.com (Beth Debus)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 16:54:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [nabs-l] FREE screen reader notes from Ohio student division
	meeting
In-Reply-To: <CC39A2F5FB8E4940AD2A4861B85B4C8D@hometwxakonvzn>
Message-ID: <968099.42715.qm@web114003.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Skype, lol! Sorry RJ, but I'm not that cool yet!
 
Beth

--- On Mon, 11/22/10, RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com> wrote:


From: RJ Sandefur <joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] FREE screen reader notes from Ohio student division meeting
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 7:31 PM


Thanks Beth! Do you use skype? my skype name is smallistbaby1979 if you want to add me. RJ
----- Original Message ----- From: "Beth Debus" <mbdebus at yahoo.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:27 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] FREE screen reader notes from Ohio student division meeting


Hi everyone, I'm attaching some notes from the last Ohio student division meeting you might find helpful. This is a list of FREE screen readers.

Beth





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com
> 


_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/mbdebus%40yahoo.com



      

From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 01:21:20 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 20:21:20 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Report on the football/basketball game
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikSo6nvNKYDMABV2vR7fFtA7ipqyRQnK7Qy=Y+b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikSo6nvNKYDMABV2vR7fFtA7ipqyRQnK7Qy=Y+b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1727F4C1F15E41E4BD0694F76D9A3A64@Rufus>

Excellent news!  I'm very proud of you, and just keep doing what you're
doing.

Best,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing 

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org 
[mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerri Kosten
Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:17 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: [nabs-l] Report on the football/basketball game

Hi All!

Sorry for the long delay.

Things for the basketball/football game went okay.

For the basketball game I did excellent. I used my cane the entire time.

I got directions in when I was dropped off and walked in by myself.
There were a million people around to follow and I could tell when I
was nearing the door because the sound of my cane changed and I could
smell the inside of the building (the Coliseum has a distinct smell.)

As soon as I walked in someone took my ticket. I was introduced to a
man named Jason who would walk me to my seat.

Instead of taking his arm though, I asked him if he could walk beside
me and give me directions. We had to walk all the way across the
Coliseum to the other side to get to the seats.

While we were walking he said "You do good with that stick." I
explained that it was a white cane and that it helps me get around,
and that I am much more independent when I use it and it conveys much
more information to me than when I take someone's arm.

We arrived at my seat and I was so excited...I had just walked all
across the Coliseum by myself without being guided.

I thanked Jason for giving such good directions and allowing me to use
my cane...some people don't like giving directions or act strangely
but he did really well!

At halftime, I was starving so decided to get a hotdog.

I wasn't sure where the concession stand was but because I had used my
cane I had some idea of where to go.

After asking a few people for directions (they all gave directions and
did not guide) I made it to the concession stand, got my hotdogs, and
went back.

Again I was so excited with myself.

When the game was over I knew I needed to get back to the door I was
dropped off at and I knew it was on the other side of the coliseum.

There is a walkway between the seats. On one side are the seats, and
on the other is a wall with openings to hallways you can turn down.
There was noone around, so I just guessed which direction to start
heading. I had a pretty good feeling I was going the right way because
I had used the cane to get to the seats so was pretty sure of how to
reverse.

I ran into several people along the way, and they reassured me I was
going the right way. I walked fast, confidently.

After walking a while, I ran into someone else who told me I had
passed the opening to turn down to get to the blue gate. I turned
around and it was right there;I had just passed it.

I turned into the opening and began walking toward the door.

Just as I had done with coming in I sort of followed all the people
who were also going to the door. I could also feel the cold air coming
from outside.

As I was at the rug that led to the doors, I heard a little girl from
somewhere amongst all the people say something like "Mommy where is
she going? Does she know where she is going?" tThere were a ton of
people around so it was hard to hear, but I thought I heard the mother
reply "Shhhh, let her walk."

I also ran into three people I knew.

I went outside and found the curb with no problem. Again, because I
used my cane I vaguely knew where to go.

The next day was the football game. At the very last minute, my mother
decided she wanted to go to the football game with me since we did
have an extra ticket. Because it was my birthday, and I wanted to
spend time with Mom, I decided she could come with me. However, Things
did not go so well at the football game. I tried to compromise with
Mom to let me have some independent travel, and I tried to do what you
guys suggested: pay attention to where we were going. To make a long
story short, I did get to use my cane with Mom giving directions to
get out of the stadium and it went okay. I think looking back I
could've done the entire thing by myself...there are ushers at the
bottom of the steps to every section, everyone ws very nice, and they
even have a texting program where you can text the word "aid" to a
certain number if you need assistance and someone will come over to
help you. I found out later the reason Mom did not let me use my cane
more during the game was because she doesn't think I am good enough
with it in "dangerous" situations. She was mainly afraid I would fall
on the concrete steps and hurt myself, however as I pointed out my
cane is long enough that it comes to steps two steps ahead and I cover
very well so I get plenty of warning. I have never fallen or gotten
hurt when using my cane;if anything it has prevented many injuries.

I was initially very upset with Mom for not trusting me. However, last
Monday was my actual birthday and I was determined to make up for the
lack of cane use during the football game and use my cane the entire
day since it was my birthday.

We first went to a restaurant for lunch. There were three of us;me, my
mother, and her friend. After I had ordered (I was first) instead of
standing around waiting for the others to order, I took off and went
exploring to try to find us a table. I came to the cluster of tables
and went around to each table and checked to see if there were three
seats. Eventually I came to one which had three chairs and sat down.
So, for the first time I had found us all a table on my own.

After we had finished, my mother was talking to her friend outside
before they parted. I was going to go with her to Target to get some
new clothes. I wanted a refill on my drink so again got up, tand took
off in search of the fountain. Soon, and after asking a couple of
people I found it and got more Coke.

At Target again I used my cane the entire time. I had to try on
several pairs of jeans and since we could not find any pairs that fit
we had to go from the dressing room across the store , to the isles of
jeans and back sevral times. With mom giving directions I used the
cane. It came to every obsticle;the isles were very narrow with racks
of clothing on each side and various obsticles sitting between them
where you could walk. The cane to everything; and each time it hit an
obsticle or I successfully went through a very narrow isle I called to
Mom, who was in front of me "See how the cane comes to these things?"

Even though I did not get to use my cane as much as I would've liked
at the football game, I'd like to think I made up for it on my
birthday. I hope my mother saw and really realized how the cane
prevents me from getting hurt and how it comes to every obsticle and
how I can navigate narrow isles/passageways without runnning into
anything with my body.

I learned a lot from the three days. You do never know who you run
into; the people who saw me at the basketball game and target saw a
blind girl who was using her cane independently; they did not see a
blind girl holding onto someone's arm.

I wonder what kind of discussion that little girl and her mother had
afterwords in the car. Maybe the mother was able to educate the little
girl on independence of blind people.

Now, if Jason ever escorts another blind person at a basketball game
he will know the stick is actually a white cane and that it symbolizes
independence.

I now know how to manage my mother when she is worried or is
overprotective;I just take off.

I am very proud of myself for not only using my cane but for the
independence I was able to show to those who saw me, and to those who
encountered me. This makes me want to work even harder to not back
down to those who want to overly help and really really use my cane in
every situation.

Thanks for all your help;without your encouragement and advice I'm not
sure I would've been able to do the basketball game by myself.

There is one more home football game left on Dec. 5. Who knows, I may
just take off with my cane and try doing it alone just like the
basketball game.

Kerri

_______________________________________________
nabs-l mailing list
nabs-l at nfbnet.org
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account 
info for nabs-l:
http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
%40gmail.com



From herekittykat2 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 02:25:01 2010
From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:25:01 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Report on the football/basketball game
In-Reply-To: <1727F4C1F15E41E4BD0694F76D9A3A64@Rufus>
References: <AANLkTikSo6nvNKYDMABV2vR7fFtA7ipqyRQnK7Qy=Y+b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1727F4C1F15E41E4BD0694F76D9A3A64@Rufus>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimSPc-O=uLi4OMAT_RMzFsomDDC3PMJqazmyBY2@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for sharing this with us, Kerri! I'm proud of you. I can't
imagine what it must be like for you, having little O&M iraining and a
mother who doesn't believe in your ability, and still going out and
doing things and making progress. I was encouraged from early on when
I became blind 2 years ago, first by a friend who had a blind wife and
knew a bit of how the white cane works and some basic alterantive
techniquest to teach me, then by a blind neighbour who was less
independent than me (the best way to learn is to teach, sometimes!)
and had never been to the park in the 15 years he had lived there, so
we went to the park, and then by Federationists and rehab teachers.
I've been discouraged only a bit, mostly by my  abusive (now-ex)
husband and my abusive mother, but I pretty much expected that.

You did such a great job, and I hope you will keep it up. It sounds
like you had a great birthday weekend!

On 11/22/10, Joe Orozco <jsorozco at gmail.com> wrote:
> Excellent news!  I'm very proud of you, and just keep doing what you're
> doing.
>
> Best,
>
> Joe
>
> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerri Kosten
> Sent: Monday, November 22, 2010 7:17 PM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: [nabs-l] Report on the football/basketball game
>
> Hi All!
>
> Sorry for the long delay.
>
> Things for the basketball/football game went okay.
>
> For the basketball game I did excellent. I used my cane the entire time.
>
> I got directions in when I was dropped off and walked in by myself.
> There were a million people around to follow and I could tell when I
> was nearing the door because the sound of my cane changed and I could
> smell the inside of the building (the Coliseum has a distinct smell.)
>
> As soon as I walked in someone took my ticket. I was introduced to a
> man named Jason who would walk me to my seat.
>
> Instead of taking his arm though, I asked him if he could walk beside
> me and give me directions. We had to walk all the way across the
> Coliseum to the other side to get to the seats.
>
> While we were walking he said "You do good with that stick." I
> explained that it was a white cane and that it helps me get around,
> and that I am much more independent when I use it and it conveys much
> more information to me than when I take someone's arm.
>
> We arrived at my seat and I was so excited...I had just walked all
> across the Coliseum by myself without being guided.
>
> I thanked Jason for giving such good directions and allowing me to use
> my cane...some people don't like giving directions or act strangely
> but he did really well!
>
> At halftime, I was starving so decided to get a hotdog.
>
> I wasn't sure where the concession stand was but because I had used my
> cane I had some idea of where to go.
>
> After asking a few people for directions (they all gave directions and
> did not guide) I made it to the concession stand, got my hotdogs, and
> went back.
>
> Again I was so excited with myself.
>
> When the game was over I knew I needed to get back to the door I was
> dropped off at and I knew it was on the other side of the coliseum.
>
> There is a walkway between the seats. On one side are the seats, and
> on the other is a wall with openings to hallways you can turn down.
> There was noone around, so I just guessed which direction to start
> heading. I had a pretty good feeling I was going the right way because
> I had used the cane to get to the seats so was pretty sure of how to
> reverse.
>
> I ran into several people along the way, and they reassured me I was
> going the right way. I walked fast, confidently.
>
> After walking a while, I ran into someone else who told me I had
> passed the opening to turn down to get to the blue gate. I turned
> around and it was right there;I had just passed it.
>
> I turned into the opening and began walking toward the door.
>
> Just as I had done with coming in I sort of followed all the people
> who were also going to the door. I could also feel the cold air coming
> from outside.
>
> As I was at the rug that led to the doors, I heard a little girl from
> somewhere amongst all the people say something like "Mommy where is
> she going? Does she know where she is going?" tThere were a ton of
> people around so it was hard to hear, but I thought I heard the mother
> reply "Shhhh, let her walk."
>
> I also ran into three people I knew.
>
> I went outside and found the curb with no problem. Again, because I
> used my cane I vaguely knew where to go.
>
> The next day was the football game. At the very last minute, my mother
> decided she wanted to go to the football game with me since we did
> have an extra ticket. Because it was my birthday, and I wanted to
> spend time with Mom, I decided she could come with me. However, Things
> did not go so well at the football game. I tried to compromise with
> Mom to let me have some independent travel, and I tried to do what you
> guys suggested: pay attention to where we were going. To make a long
> story short, I did get to use my cane with Mom giving directions to
> get out of the stadium and it went okay. I think looking back I
> could've done the entire thing by myself...there are ushers at the
> bottom of the steps to every section, everyone ws very nice, and they
> even have a texting program where you can text the word "aid" to a
> certain number if you need assistance and someone will come over to
> help you. I found out later the reason Mom did not let me use my cane
> more during the game was because she doesn't think I am good enough
> with it in "dangerous" situations. She was mainly afraid I would fall
> on the concrete steps and hurt myself, however as I pointed out my
> cane is long enough that it comes to steps two steps ahead and I cover
> very well so I get plenty of warning. I have never fallen or gotten
> hurt when using my cane;if anything it has prevented many injuries.
>
> I was initially very upset with Mom for not trusting me. However, last
> Monday was my actual birthday and I was determined to make up for the
> lack of cane use during the football game and use my cane the entire
> day since it was my birthday.
>
> We first went to a restaurant for lunch. There were three of us;me, my
> mother, and her friend. After I had ordered (I was first) instead of
> standing around waiting for the others to order, I took off and went
> exploring to try to find us a table. I came to the cluster of tables
> and went around to each table and checked to see if there were three
> seats. Eventually I came to one which had three chairs and sat down.
> So, for the first time I had found us all a table on my own.
>
> After we had finished, my mother was talking to her friend outside
> before they parted. I was going to go with her to Target to get some
> new clothes. I wanted a refill on my drink so again got up, tand took
> off in search of the fountain. Soon, and after asking a couple of
> people I found it and got more Coke.
>
> At Target again I used my cane the entire time. I had to try on
> several pairs of jeans and since we could not find any pairs that fit
> we had to go from the dressing room across the store , to the isles of
> jeans and back sevral times. With mom giving directions I used the
> cane. It came to every obsticle;the isles were very narrow with racks
> of clothing on each side and various obsticles sitting between them
> where you could walk. The cane to everything; and each time it hit an
> obsticle or I successfully went through a very narrow isle I called to
> Mom, who was in front of me "See how the cane comes to these things?"
>
> Even though I did not get to use my cane as much as I would've liked
> at the football game, I'd like to think I made up for it on my
> birthday. I hope my mother saw and really realized how the cane
> prevents me from getting hurt and how it comes to every obsticle and
> how I can navigate narrow isles/passageways without runnning into
> anything with my body.
>
> I learned a lot from the three days. You do never know who you run
> into; the people who saw me at the basketball game and target saw a
> blind girl who was using her cane independently; they did not see a
> blind girl holding onto someone's arm.
>
> I wonder what kind of discussion that little girl and her mother had
> afterwords in the car. Maybe the mother was able to educate the little
> girl on independence of blind people.
>
> Now, if Jason ever escorts another blind person at a basketball game
> he will know the stick is actually a white cane and that it symbolizes
> independence.
>
> I now know how to manage my mother when she is worried or is
> overprotective;I just take off.
>
> I am very proud of myself for not only using my cane but for the
> independence I was able to show to those who saw me, and to those who
> encountered me. This makes me want to work even harder to not back
> down to those who want to overly help and really really use my cane in
> every situation.
>
> Thanks for all your help;without your encouragement and advice I'm not
> sure I would've been able to do the basketball game by myself.
>
> There is one more home football game left on Dec. 5. Who knows, I may
> just take off with my cane and try doing it alone just like the
> basketball game.
>
> Kerri
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account
> info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco
> %40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com
>


-- 
~Jewel
Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind!
Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com


From kimthurman at insightbb.com  Tue Nov 23 02:42:37 2010
From: kimthurman at insightbb.com (Kimberly thurman)
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:42:37 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Report on the football/basketball game
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikSo6nvNKYDMABV2vR7fFtA7ipqyRQnK7Qy=Y+b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikSo6nvNKYDMABV2vR7fFtA7ipqyRQnK7Qy=Y+b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A853DEE-E34A-44BC-B7DF-996868F740B1@insightbb.com>

Kerry, congratulations on your successful travel.  We're all proud of you!
On Nov 22, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:

> Hi All!
> 
> Sorry for the long delay.
> 
> Things for the basketball/football game went okay.
> 
> For the basketball game I did excellent. I used my cane the entire time.
> 
> I got directions in when I was dropped off and walked in by myself.
> There were a million people around to follow and I could tell when I
> was nearing the door because the sound of my cane changed and I could
> smell the inside of the building (the Coliseum has a distinct smell.)
> 
> As soon as I walked in someone took my ticket. I was introduced to a
> man named Jason who would walk me to my seat.
> 
> Instead of taking his arm though, I asked him if he could walk beside
> me and give me directions. We had to walk all the way across the
> Coliseum to the other side to get to the seats.
> 
> While we were walking he said "You do good with that stick." I
> explained that it was a white cane and that it helps me get around,
> and that I am much more independent when I use it and it conveys much
> more information to me than when I take someone's arm.
> 
> We arrived at my seat and I was so excited...I had just walked all
> across the Coliseum by myself without being guided.
> 
> I thanked Jason for giving such good directions and allowing me to use
> my cane...some people don't like giving directions or act strangely
> but he did really well!
> 
> At halftime, I was starving so decided to get a hotdog.
> 
> I wasn't sure where the concession stand was but because I had used my
> cane I had some idea of where to go.
> 
> After asking a few people for directions (they all gave directions and
> did not guide) I made it to the concession stand, got my hotdogs, and
> went back.
> 
> Again I was so excited with myself.
> 
> When the game was over I knew I needed to get back to the door I was
> dropped off at and I knew it was on the other side of the coliseum.
> 
> There is a walkway between the seats. On one side are the seats, and
> on the other is a wall with openings to hallways you can turn down.
> There was noone around, so I just guessed which direction to start
> heading. I had a pretty good feeling I was going the right way because
> I had used the cane to get to the seats so was pretty sure of how to
> reverse.
> 
> I ran into several people along the way, and they reassured me I was
> going the right way. I walked fast, confidently.
> 
> After walking a while, I ran into someone else who told me I had
> passed the opening to turn down to get to the blue gate. I turned
> around and it was right there;I had just passed it.
> 
> I turned into the opening and began walking toward the door.
> 
> Just as I had done with coming in I sort of followed all the people
> who were also going to the door. I could also feel the cold air coming
> from outside.
> 
> As I was at the rug that led to the doors, I heard a little girl from
> somewhere amongst all the people say something like "Mommy where is
> she going? Does she know where she is going?" tThere were a ton of
> people around so it was hard to hear, but I thought I heard the mother
> reply "Shhhh, let her walk."
> 
> I also ran into three people I knew.
> 
> I went outside and found the curb with no problem. Again, because I
> used my cane I vaguely knew where to go.
> 
> The next day was the football game. At the very last minute, my mother
> decided she wanted to go to the football game with me since we did
> have an extra ticket. Because it was my birthday, and I wanted to
> spend time with Mom, I decided she could come with me. However, Things
> did not go so well at the football game. I tried to compromise with
> Mom to let me have some independent travel, and I tried to do what you
> guys suggested: pay attention to where we were going. To make a long
> story short, I did get to use my cane with Mom giving directions to
> get out of the stadium and it went okay. I think looking back I
> could've done the entire thing by myself...there are ushers at the
> bottom of the steps to every section, everyone ws very nice, and they
> even have a texting program where you can text the word "aid" to a
> certain number if you need assistance and someone will come over to
> help you. I found out later the reason Mom did not let me use my cane
> more during the game was because she doesn't think I am good enough
> with it in "dangerous" situations. She was mainly afraid I would fall
> on the concrete steps and hurt myself, however as I pointed out my
> cane is long enough that it comes to steps two steps ahead and I cover
> very well so I get plenty of warning. I have never fallen or gotten
> hurt when using my cane;if anything it has prevented many injuries.
> 
> I was initially very upset with Mom for not trusting me. However, last
> Monday was my actual birthday and I was determined to make up for the
> lack of cane use during the football game and use my cane the entire
> day since it was my birthday.
> 
> We first went to a restaurant for lunch. There were three of us;me, my
> mother, and her friend. After I had ordered (I was first) instead of
> standing around waiting for the others to order, I took off and went
> exploring to try to find us a table. I came to the cluster of tables
> and went around to each table and checked to see if there were three
> seats. Eventually I came to one which had three chairs and sat down.
> So, for the first time I had found us all a table on my own.
> 
> After we had finished, my mother was talking to her friend outside
> before they parted. I was going to go with her to Target to get some
> new clothes. I wanted a refill on my drink so again got up, tand took
> off in search of the fountain. Soon, and after asking a couple of
> people I found it and got more Coke.
> 
> At Target again I used my cane the entire time. I had to try on
> several pairs of jeans and since we could not find any pairs that fit
> we had to go from the dressing room across the store , to the isles of
> jeans and back sevral times. With mom giving directions I used the
> cane. It came to every obsticle;the isles were very narrow with racks
> of clothing on each side and various obsticles sitting between them
> where you could walk. The cane to everything; and each time it hit an
> obsticle or I successfully went through a very narrow isle I called to
> Mom, who was in front of me "See how the cane comes to these things?"
> 
> Even though I did not get to use my cane as much as I would've liked
> at the football game, I'd like to think I made up for it on my
> birthday. I hope my mother saw and really realized how the cane
> prevents me from getting hurt and how it comes to every obsticle and
> how I can navigate narrow isles/passageways without runnning into
> anything with my body.
> 
> I learned a lot from the three days. You do never know who you run
> into; the people who saw me at the basketball game and target saw a
> blind girl who was using her cane independently; they did not see a
> blind girl holding onto someone's arm.
> 
> I wonder what kind of discussion that little girl and her mother had
> afterwords in the car. Maybe the mother was able to educate the little
> girl on independence of blind people.
> 
> Now, if Jason ever escorts another blind person at a basketball game
> he will know the stick is actually a white cane and that it symbolizes
> independence.
> 
> I now know how to manage my mother when she is worried or is
> overprotective;I just take off.
> 
> I am very proud of myself for not only using my cane but for the
> independence I was able to show to those who saw me, and to those who
> encountered me. This makes me want to work even harder to not back
> down to those who want to overly help and really really use my cane in
> every situation.
> 
> Thanks for all your help;without your encouragement and advice I'm not
> sure I would've been able to do the basketball game by myself.
> 
> There is one more home football game left on Dec. 5. Who knows, I may
> just take off with my cane and try doing it alone just like the
> basketball game.
> 
> Kerri
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kimthurman%40insightbb.com



From liziswhatis at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 23 14:36:50 2010
From: liziswhatis at hotmail.com (Liz Bottner)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 08:36:50 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <E5271A84C53745C090E5EB8C7A6EDB8C@Rufus>
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
	<E5271A84C53745C090E5EB8C7A6EDB8C@Rufus>
Message-ID: <SNT124-DS10CEF54A7E81AA55749069BA3E0@phx.gbl>

Joe,

Extremely well said! I, too,  chose not to take my dog to the TSO concert
when I went last year, although I know of some people who have done so.
Whatever works for you as a team is my philosophy.

Take care, and again, well said!

Liz

email: 
liziswhatis at hotmail.com 
Visit my LiveJournal: 
http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com 
Follow me on Twitter: 
http://twitter.com/lizbot 





From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 14:39:01 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 09:39:01 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
Message-ID: <A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com>

I think people have said many good things on this topic, and I agree with pretty much all of them. The only thing I would add is that besides all the advantages that you already talked about, for me a big thing is that traveling with the dog is much, much faster. I used a cane for a long time and at least in my particular case, walking around with the dog literally helps me to get wherever I'm going twice as fast. At national convention last summer I realized that with the dog I was much faster than everybody using canes, and other dog users seemed to be faster too. Of course when you are busy or travel a lot being fast is important, but some people may really not care about it.
On Nov 21, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:

> Hi all:
> I am considering options for travel, and my Vision Teacher and I have discussed if I ever wanted to get a dog.
>> From your points of view, what are the advantages to using a guide dog instead of a cane?
> I am very comfortable with a cane, and I'm aware that good use of the cane is required before you can get a dog,
> but what are the advantages of a guide dog in terms of day-to-day life?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Jorge
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 16:03:41 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:03:41 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
	<A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413>

I agree, it is a much quicker and efficient way to travel but you do need to 
be a good cane traveler. With a dog i have found  that it is easier to go 
around obstacles. Last fall i had a class in room 210 and another 212 on 
seperate days of the week. My wonderful dog didn't have a problem knowing 
which room to go to on the right day of the week.

However, even though a guide dog is a wonderful way to travel i want to add 
that it is a huge responsibility. When first applying i just had in my mind 
" now I can cross that 4 lane highway" or " now maybe i will walk straighter 
and around people better". What i didnt know was 1 sometimes people dont 
move or might distract the dog. 2 you take care of this dog like they are 
your child ( brush their teeth, weigh them regularly, clean their ears, 
brush them.

I hope i didn't change your mind because it is an amazing experience having 
somebody that loves you so much unconditionally but yet is so helpful and i 
want to reccomend Guiding Eyes For The Blind in yorktown Heights New York.

        -Teal


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ignasi Cambra" <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:39 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


>I think people have said many good things on this topic, and I agree with 
>pretty much all of them. The only thing I would add is that besides all the 
>advantages that you already talked about, for me a big thing is that 
>traveling with the dog is much, much faster. I used a cane for a long time 
>and at least in my particular case, walking around with the dog literally 
>helps me to get wherever I'm going twice as fast. At national convention 
>last summer I realized that with the dog I was much faster than everybody 
>using canes, and other dog users seemed to be faster too. Of course when 
>you are busy or travel a lot being fast is important, but some people may 
>really not care about it.
> On Nov 21, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>
>> Hi all:
>> I am considering options for travel, and my Vision Teacher and I have 
>> discussed if I ever wanted to get a dog.
>>> From your points of view, what are the advantages to using a guide dog 
>>> instead of a cane?
>> I am very comfortable with a cane, and I'm aware that good use of the 
>> cane is required before you can get a dog,
>> but what are the advantages of a guide dog in terms of day-to-day life?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Jorge
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
> 



From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 16:57:22 2010
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 10:57:22 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413>
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
	<A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com>
	<886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413>
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com>

Hi.

I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
then.  I was ready for it though.

The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
her.  I love it.

I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
to pay attention to.

Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
list.

I would also recommend Guiding Eyes for the Blind in Yorktown Heights,
New York.

On 11/23/10, autTeal Bloodwortho <tealbloodworth at gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree, it is a much quicker and efficient way to travel but you do need to
> be a good cane traveler. With a dog i have found  that it is easier to go
> around obstacles. Last fall i had a class in room 210 and another 212 on
> seperate days of the week. My wonderful dog didn't have a problem knowing
> which room to go to on the right day of the week.
>
> However, even though a guide dog is a wonderful way to travel i want to add
> that it is a huge responsibility. When first applying i just had in my mind
> " now I can cross that 4 lane highway" or " now maybe i will walk straighter
> and around people better". What i didnt know was 1 sometimes people dont
> move or might distract the dog. 2 you take care of this dog like they are
> your child ( brush their teeth, weigh them regularly, clean their ears,
> brush them.
>
> I hope i didn't change your mind because it is an amazing experience having
> somebody that loves you so much unconditionally but yet is so helpful and i
> want to reccomend Guiding Eyes For The Blind in yorktown Heights New York.
>
>         -Teal
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ignasi Cambra" <ignasicambra at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 8:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
>
>
>>I think people have said many good things on this topic, and I agree with
>>pretty much all of them. The only thing I would add is that besides all the
>>
>>advantages that you already talked about, for me a big thing is that
>>traveling with the dog is much, much faster. I used a cane for a long time
>>and at least in my particular case, walking around with the dog literally
>>helps me to get wherever I'm going twice as fast. At national convention
>>last summer I realized that with the dog I was much faster than everybody
>>using canes, and other dog users seemed to be faster too. Of course when
>>you are busy or travel a lot being fast is important, but some people may
>>really not care about it.
>> On Nov 21, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>>
>>> Hi all:
>>> I am considering options for travel, and my Vision Teacher and I have
>>> discussed if I ever wanted to get a dog.
>>>> From your points of view, what are the advantages to using a guide dog
>>>> instead of a cane?
>>> I am very comfortable with a cane, and I'm aware that good use of the
>>> cane is required before you can get a dog,
>>> but what are the advantages of a guide dog in terms of day-to-day life?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jorge
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16


From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 18:39:00 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:39:00 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] free screen reader notes
Message-ID: <4CEC0A44.5060902@gmail.com>

Hi

can you please email those notes to me at jkenn337 at gmail.com ? thanks
josh


From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 18:57:55 2010
From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 12:57:55 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1290535204.10362.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.15.1290535204.10362.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com>

I agree with the vast majority of what has been said on this topic, and
completely agree that each has its benefits and drawbacks.

One thing I would like to point out, however, is that one can walk plenty
fast with a cane. This is especially true when you are walking to a
destination which you have found previously. And, honestly, many of the
places we all go are places we go on more than one occasion. A dog is
definitely quicker when you are not sure of the route you are taking or what
kinds of cues you are looking for, but once you know where you are going,
the cane can allow you to walk as quickly as anybody else. I will grant that
travel with a dog can appear more graceful, because you are able to navigate
obstacles without contacting them with a cane, but I disagree with the
thought that cane travel is necessarily slower. I can walk around familiar
parts of my city as quickly as anybody I know, dog user or sighted
individual.

This said, dogs are certainly faster at navigating through crowds or
cluttered areas, but, at least for me, the vast majority of my walking is
done down a sidewalk or the side of a road, where, as I say, a cane user can
walk as fast as anybody. And, the time I might give up in travel, I make up
for by not having to care for an animal, so there are two sides to the
efficiency argument as well.

All the best,

Sean





From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 19:02:35 2010
From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:02:35 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS
In-Reply-To: <mailman.19.1290448806.6469.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
References: <mailman.19.1290448806.6469.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
Message-ID: <003d01cb8b40$fe48c1e0$fada45a0$@com>

Dennis,

I currently live in Arlington VA and work as a lobbyist in DC. Thank you for
the encouraging words. I intend to do whatever is necessary to get the LSAT
in the format that works best for me.

Justin,

I will email you off list about the logic games and with some ideas on the
books. If you don't hear from me in the next couple of days, kindly shoot me
an email to remind me.

Take care,

Sean



From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 19:07:28 2010
From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 14:07:28 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] free screen reader notes
References: <4CEC0A44.5060902@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <79EA37D5ADD846838A4F7B41890B7D18@hometwxakonvzn>

Can you please email those notes to me at:
joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com RJ
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Josh Kennedy" <jkenn337 at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:39 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] free screen reader notes


> Hi
>
> can you please email those notes to me at jkenn337 at gmail.com ? thanks
> josh
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com 



From dandrews at visi.com  Tue Nov 23 19:11:52 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:11:52 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.c
 om>
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
	<A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com>
	<886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413>
	<AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000179333672@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Not to be argumentative, but I can travel as rapidly as most any dog 
user.  Whether a dog, or a cane, there is a continuum of abilities.

To me it is mostly a personal preference to use a cane.  One thing, 
about using a dog, which hasn't been said, I think, is that there are 
people out there who are against a dog, and will try and deny you 
entrance to a restaurant, taxi, or other public accommodation.  While 
you have the law on your side, you also need to be prepared to take 
on this prejudice -- in addition to all the stuff we get as blind 
people going through life.

Dave

At 10:57 AM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>Hi.
>
>I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
>faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
>dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
>then.  I was ready for it though.
>
>The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
>with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
>life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
>her.  I love it.
>
>I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
>for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
>your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
>skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
>lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
>if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
>thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
>happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
>to pay attention to.
>
>Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
>high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
>list.

         David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com
Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920



From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 19:55:25 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:55:25 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com><A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com><886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413><AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000179333672@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <C973AA80B1AF442B82105529637B598D@PC185582706413>

This is so true especially in certain places where people take their pets 
into stores and say they are working animals. Also i think somebody was 
talking about concerts. Personally i would not take my guide dog to a 
concert, movie theatre, or even a club/bar. David does make a very good 
point though because even though they are welcome to anywhere the general 
public can go some places will give you a hard time and may end up in 
something rediculous. Plus i think when going to a hospital or somewhere it 
isn't appropriate to take mine because he does still get excited by certain 
family members.

        -Teal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> Not to be argumentative, but I can travel as rapidly as most any dog user. 
> Whether a dog, or a cane, there is a continuum of abilities.
>
> To me it is mostly a personal preference to use a cane.  One thing, about 
> using a dog, which hasn't been said, I think, is that there are people out 
> there who are against a dog, and will try and deny you entrance to a 
> restaurant, taxi, or other public accommodation.  While you have the law 
> on your side, you also need to be prepared to take on this prejudice -- in 
> addition to all the stuff we get as blind people going through life.
>
> Dave
>
> At 10:57 AM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>>Hi.
>>
>>I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
>>faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
>>dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
>>then.  I was ready for it though.
>>
>>The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
>>with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
>>life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
>>her.  I love it.
>>
>>I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
>>for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
>>your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
>>skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
>>lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
>>if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
>>thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
>>happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
>>to pay attention to.
>>
>>Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
>>high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
>>list.
>
>         David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com
> Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
> 



From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 19:55:33 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:55:33 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com><A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com><886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413><AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000179333672@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <42A7DBDD26144949BC46BD4F04A5C743@PC185582706413>

This is so true especially in certain places where people take their pets 
into stores and say they are working animals. Also i think somebody was 
talking about concerts. Personally i would not take my guide dog to a 
concert, movie theatre, or even a club/bar. David does make a very good 
point though because even though they are welcome to anywhere the general 
public can go some places will give you a hard time and may end up in 
something rediculous. Plus i think when going to a hospital or somewhere it 
isn't appropriate to take mine because he does still get excited by certain 
family members.

        -Teal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> Not to be argumentative, but I can travel as rapidly as most any dog user. 
> Whether a dog, or a cane, there is a continuum of abilities.
>
> To me it is mostly a personal preference to use a cane.  One thing, about 
> using a dog, which hasn't been said, I think, is that there are people out 
> there who are against a dog, and will try and deny you entrance to a 
> restaurant, taxi, or other public accommodation.  While you have the law 
> on your side, you also need to be prepared to take on this prejudice -- in 
> addition to all the stuff we get as blind people going through life.
>
> Dave
>
> At 10:57 AM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>>Hi.
>>
>>I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
>>faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
>>dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
>>then.  I was ready for it though.
>>
>>The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
>>with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
>>life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
>>her.  I love it.
>>
>>I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
>>for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
>>your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
>>skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
>>lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
>>if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
>>thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
>>happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
>>to pay attention to.
>>
>>Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
>>high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
>>list.
>
>         David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com
> Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
> 



From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 19:55:39 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:55:39 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com><A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com><886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413><AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000179333672@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <D26606C171BB4DB493E0633BAED5A765@PC185582706413>

This is so true especially in certain places where people take their pets 
into stores and say they are working animals. Also i think somebody was 
talking about concerts. Personally i would not take my guide dog to a 
concert, movie theatre, or even a club/bar. David does make a very good 
point though because even though they are welcome to anywhere the general 
public can go some places will give you a hard time and may end up in 
something rediculous. Plus i think when going to a hospital or somewhere it 
isn't appropriate to take mine because he does still get excited by certain 
family members.

        -Teal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> Not to be argumentative, but I can travel as rapidly as most any dog user. 
> Whether a dog, or a cane, there is a continuum of abilities.
>
> To me it is mostly a personal preference to use a cane.  One thing, about 
> using a dog, which hasn't been said, I think, is that there are people out 
> there who are against a dog, and will try and deny you entrance to a 
> restaurant, taxi, or other public accommodation.  While you have the law 
> on your side, you also need to be prepared to take on this prejudice -- in 
> addition to all the stuff we get as blind people going through life.
>
> Dave
>
> At 10:57 AM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>>Hi.
>>
>>I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
>>faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
>>dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
>>then.  I was ready for it though.
>>
>>The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
>>with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
>>life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
>>her.  I love it.
>>
>>I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
>>for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
>>your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
>>skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
>>lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
>>if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
>>thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
>>happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
>>to pay attention to.
>>
>>Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
>>high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
>>list.
>
>         David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com
> Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
> 



From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 19:56:16 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:56:16 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com><A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com><886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413><AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000179333672@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <F81F724822104ECDB10005F86DE0FA4B@PC185582706413>

This is so true especially in certain places where people take their pets
into stores and say they are working animals. Also i think somebody was
talking about concerts. Personally i would not take my guide dog to a
concert, movie theatre, or even a club/bar. David does make a very good
point though because even though they are welcome to anywhere the general
public can go some places will give you a hard time and may end up in
something rediculous. Plus i think when going to a hospital or somewhere it
isn't appropriate to take mine because he does still get excited by certain
family members.

        -Teal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> Not to be argumentative, but I can travel as rapidly as most any dog user.
> Whether a dog, or a cane, there is a continuum of abilities.
>
> To me it is mostly a personal preference to use a cane.  One thing, about
> using a dog, which hasn't been said, I think, is that there are people out
> there who are against a dog, and will try and deny you entrance to a
> restaurant, taxi, or other public accommodation.  While you have the law
> on your side, you also need to be prepared to take on this prejudice -- in
> addition to all the stuff we get as blind people going through life.
>
> Dave
>
> At 10:57 AM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>>Hi.
>>
>>I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
>>faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
>>dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
>>then.  I was ready for it though.
>>
>>The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
>>with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
>>life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
>>her.  I love it.
>>
>>I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
>>for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
>>your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
>>skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
>>lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
>>if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
>>thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
>>happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
>>to pay attention to.
>>
>>Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
>>high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
>>list.
>
>         David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com
> Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>



From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 19:55:51 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 13:55:51 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com><A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com><886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413><AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000179333672@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <61C9ECF5568347B9B2F36CE2612DDBA5@PC185582706413>

This is so true especially in certain places where people take their pets 
into stores and say they are working animals. Also i think somebody was 
talking about concerts. Personally i would not take my guide dog to a 
concert, movie theatre, or even a club/bar. David does make a very good 
point though because even though they are welcome to anywhere the general 
public can go some places will give you a hard time and may end up in 
something rediculous. Plus i think when going to a hospital or somewhere it 
isn't appropriate to take mine because he does still get excited by certain 
family members.

        -Teal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> Not to be argumentative, but I can travel as rapidly as most any dog user. 
> Whether a dog, or a cane, there is a continuum of abilities.
>
> To me it is mostly a personal preference to use a cane.  One thing, about 
> using a dog, which hasn't been said, I think, is that there are people out 
> there who are against a dog, and will try and deny you entrance to a 
> restaurant, taxi, or other public accommodation.  While you have the law 
> on your side, you also need to be prepared to take on this prejudice -- in 
> addition to all the stuff we get as blind people going through life.
>
> Dave
>
> At 10:57 AM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>>Hi.
>>
>>I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
>>faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
>>dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
>>then.  I was ready for it though.
>>
>>The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
>>with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
>>life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
>>her.  I love it.
>>
>>I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
>>for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
>>your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
>>skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
>>lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
>>if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
>>thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
>>happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
>>to pay attention to.
>>
>>Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
>>high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
>>list.
>
>         David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com
> Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
> 



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 23 20:50:37 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:50:37 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS
References: <mailman.19.1290448806.6469.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<003d01cb8b40$fe48c1e0$fada45a0$@com>
Message-ID: <4FE44BF14AC34BC5A5D2795F09349094@Ashley>

Sean, which lobbying firm are you with?  That's a good job and a good one to 
have before law school assuming you take and pass the test.

Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS


> Dennis,
>
> I currently live in Arlington VA and work as a lobbyist in DC. Thank you 
> for
> the encouraging words. I intend to do whatever is necessary to get the 
> LSAT
> in the format that works best for me.
>
> Justin,
>
> I will email you off list about the logic games and with some ideas on the
> books. If you don't hear from me in the next couple of days, kindly shoot 
> me
> an email to remind me.
>
> Take care,
>
> Sean
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From jty727 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 21:01:12 2010
From: jty727 at gmail.com (Justin Young)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:01:12 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS
In-Reply-To: <4FE44BF14AC34BC5A5D2795F09349094@Ashley>
References: <mailman.19.1290448806.6469.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<003d01cb8b40$fe48c1e0$fada45a0$@com>
	<4FE44BF14AC34BC5A5D2795F09349094@Ashley>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinG1o2_qb+sp5zO9WQj7pHyxU7c9y+UviLQFMS6@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds good Sean looking forward to hearing from you off list

On 11/23/10, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Sean, which lobbying firm are you with?  That's a good job and a good one to
> have before law school assuming you take and pass the test.
>
> Ashley
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sean Whalen" <smwhalenpsp at gmail.com>
> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 2:02 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Have any of you taken the LSATS
>
>
>> Dennis,
>>
>> I currently live in Arlington VA and work as a lobbyist in DC. Thank you
>> for
>> the encouraging words. I intend to do whatever is necessary to get the
>> LSAT
>> in the format that works best for me.
>>
>> Justin,
>>
>> I will email you off list about the logic games and with some ideas on the
>> books. If you don't hear from me in the next couple of days, kindly shoot
>> me
>> an email to remind me.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jty727%40gmail.com
>


From kaybaycar at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 21:50:42 2010
From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 15:50:42 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <61C9ECF5568347B9B2F36CE2612DDBA5@PC185582706413>
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
	<A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com>
	<886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413>
	<AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000179333672@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<61C9ECF5568347B9B2F36CE2612DDBA5@PC185582706413>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinpCc3FYzx+XZT_9OgrEngXvFN40OOO-5Cb+hEX@mail.gmail.com>

This is definitely a personal prefference.  I will only take my dog to
one movie theater in the area because the rest are too crowded, and
there is too much nastiness on the floor.  Movie theaters are
disgusting!

I would not take her to a concert, but I have taken her to musicals,
and I go to classical concerts all the time.  They put her right to
sleep.  Again, just a personal prefference.  I probably wouldn't take
my dog to a TSO concert.  Good call.  Way too loud.  Lol!

These are the kinds of decisions you have to make when you have a dog.
 Sometimes you realize after the fact that you probably shouldn't
taken your dog to a certain place because it just didn't work.  That
may happen.  As a first time guide dog handler, there are going to be
times like that, but NAGDU has a great list serve.  You can always ask
them, and the schools are always willing to help out as well.

I personally have not had many access problems.  I also would not want
that to stop you from getting a dog.  It is definitely something to
consider though.

On 11/23/10, autTeal Bloodwortho <tealbloodworth at gmail.com> wrote:
> This is so true especially in certain places where people take their pets
> into stores and say they are working animals. Also i think somebody was
> talking about concerts. Personally i would not take my guide dog to a
> concert, movie theatre, or even a club/bar. David does make a very good
> point though because even though they are welcome to anywhere the general
> public can go some places will give you a hard time and may end up in
> something rediculous. Plus i think when going to a hospital or somewhere it
> isn't appropriate to take mine because he does still get excited by certain
> family members.
>
>         -Teal
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
>
>
>> Not to be argumentative, but I can travel as rapidly as most any dog user.
>>
>> Whether a dog, or a cane, there is a continuum of abilities.
>>
>> To me it is mostly a personal preference to use a cane.  One thing, about
>> using a dog, which hasn't been said, I think, is that there are people out
>>
>> there who are against a dog, and will try and deny you entrance to a
>> restaurant, taxi, or other public accommodation.  While you have the law
>> on your side, you also need to be prepared to take on this prejudice -- in
>>
>> addition to all the stuff we get as blind people going through life.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> At 10:57 AM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>>>Hi.
>>>
>>>I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
>>>faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
>>>dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
>>>then.  I was ready for it though.
>>>
>>>The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
>>>with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
>>>life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
>>>her.  I love it.
>>>
>>>I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
>>>for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
>>>your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
>>>skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
>>>lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
>>>if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
>>>thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
>>>happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
>>>to pay attention to.
>>>
>>>Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
>>>high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
>>>list.
>>
>>         David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com
>> Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Julie McG
 Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
Eyes for the Blind

"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
life."
John 3:16


From lizmohnke at hotmail.com  Tue Nov 23 22:12:47 2010
From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:12:47 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Some Advice on Using Readers
In-Reply-To: <4FE44BF14AC34BC5A5D2795F09349094@Ashley>
References: <mailman.19.1290448806.6469.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>,
	<003d01cb8b40$fe48c1e0$fada45a0$@com>,
	<4FE44BF14AC34BC5A5D2795F09349094@Ashley>
Message-ID: <COL118-W427B5C5D45DAFABF54432EBA3E0@phx.gbl>


Hello List,
 
I am wondering if someone might be able to help me out with a particular situation while using a reader. I am signed up to take a math class next semester, and I would like to be able to use the same reader when taking my tests in class as well as the homework assignments outside of class. 
 
However, according to the guidelines of my college disability office, this is not something I am permitted to do. I can only use the readers from the disability office for in class activities as they consider the use of a reader outside of class to be a tutor and not a reader. However, at the same time I cannot use my own reader when taking a test because somehow it compromises the integrity of the test. 
 
Since math is not my best subject, I would like to be able to use the same reader for testing accommodations and homework assignments. Does anyone know how I might be able to accomplish this goal, or am I basically stuck with having to use two different readers for this class? I have already spoken with the disabilities office about this, and it appears as though they are not willing to budge on this issue. Does anyone else have any ideas on what I might be able to do?
 
Thanks,
Elizabeth
  		 	   		  

From jorgeapaez at mac.com  Tue Nov 23 22:27:33 2010
From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:27:33 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Some Advice on Using Readers
In-Reply-To: <COL118-W427B5C5D45DAFABF54432EBA3E0@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.19.1290448806.6469.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<003d01cb8b40$fe48c1e0$fada45a0$@com>
	<4FE44BF14AC34BC5A5D2795F09349094@Ashley>
	<COL118-W427B5C5D45DAFABF54432EBA3E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <003581B5-08AF-4D5E-A168-B4F7B01DDFEE@mac.com>

Thinking about it from a law standpoint, you can say that you have to use the same reader for practice reasons, and that if you don't, you'll be at a disadvantage on the tests because you'll have to get used to 2 readers.

This may not be a valid arguement, but its the only one I can see.

What do you lawyers on this list think? Is that a valid point or not from a legal standpoint?

Jorge



On Nov 23, 2010, at 5:12 PM, Elizabeth wrote:

> 
> Hello List,
> 
> I am wondering if someone might be able to help me out with a particular situation while using a reader. I am signed up to take a math class next semester, and I would like to be able to use the same reader when taking my tests in class as well as the homework assignments outside of class. 
> 
> However, according to the guidelines of my college disability office, this is not something I am permitted to do. I can only use the readers from the disability office for in class activities as they consider the use of a reader outside of class to be a tutor and not a reader. However, at the same time I cannot use my own reader when taking a test because somehow it compromises the integrity of the test. 
> 
> Since math is not my best subject, I would like to be able to use the same reader for testing accommodations and homework assignments. Does anyone know how I might be able to accomplish this goal, or am I basically stuck with having to use two different readers for this class? I have already spoken with the disabilities office about this, and it appears as though they are not willing to budge on this issue. Does anyone else have any ideas on what I might be able to do?
> 
> Thanks,
> Elizabeth
>  		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com



From chriswright11 at verizon.net  Tue Nov 23 22:41:30 2010
From: chriswright11 at verizon.net (Christopher Wright)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:41:30 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Some Advice on Using Readers
References: <mailman.19.1290448806.6469.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>,
	<003d01cb8b40$fe48c1e0$fada45a0$@com>,
	<4FE44BF14AC34BC5A5D2795F09349094@Ashley>
	<COL118-W427B5C5D45DAFABF54432EBA3E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <FCCEEE9242BC476EA37F4AB1076C3DA8@DHP4VFK1>

For homework assignments, ask a classmate to assist you.

As for math tests, here's what I did when I attended Westchester Community 
College, in New York. The Disability Services office, in consultation with 
the Academic Support Center, appointed tutors. For each math class, in 
addition to helping understand the material, the tutor read me the questions 
and wrote out the answers for me.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Elizabeth" <lizmohnke at hotmail.com>
To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 5:12 PM
Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Some Advice on Using Readers


>
> Hello List,
>
> I am wondering if someone might be able to help me out with a particular 
> situation while using a reader. I am signed up to take a math class next 
> semester, and I would like to be able to use the same reader when taking 
> my tests in class as well as the homework assignments outside of class.
>
> However, according to the guidelines of my college disability office, this 
> is not something I am permitted to do. I can only use the readers from the 
> disability office for in class activities as they consider the use of a 
> reader outside of class to be a tutor and not a reader. However, at the 
> same time I cannot use my own reader when taking a test because somehow it 
> compromises the integrity of the test.
>
> Since math is not my best subject, I would like to be able to use the same 
> reader for testing accommodations and homework assignments. Does anyone 
> know how I might be able to accomplish this goal, or am I basically stuck 
> with having to use two different readers for this class? I have already 
> spoken with the disabilities office about this, and it appears as though 
> they are not willing to budge on this issue. Does anyone else have any 
> ideas on what I might be able to do?
>
> Thanks,
> Elizabeth
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/chriswright11%40verizon.net 



From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 23:04:44 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:04:44 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com><A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com><886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413><AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com><auto-000179333672@mailfront2.g2host.com><61C9ECF5568347B9B2F36CE2612DDBA5@PC185582706413>
	<AANLkTinpCc3FYzx+XZT_9OgrEngXvFN40OOO-5Cb+hEX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A5D7A735C5354101B690598FE6EB4692@PC185582706413>

yeah i am from Kentucky and most places around here you are allowed to bring 
your dogs in anyways but i know the school i went to gave us a card with a 
photo of me and my dog and the law on the back. I have only had one problem 
and the girl said "no dogs" and i replied "he is a working dog" and she said 
"those are for blind people". lol this is funny because i am completely 
blind but i was with my boyfriend.

I wanted to add that the schedualing is a big part in where you take your 
dog. We had a problem our first day of school after i got him and he had an 
accident on the floor but that was poor on my part. Also in places like 
church where you are sitting still and quiet for a long time
----- Original Message but that can probably be worked out too

        -Teal
 ----- 
From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> This is definitely a personal prefference.  I will only take my dog to
> one movie theater in the area because the rest are too crowded, and
> there is too much nastiness on the floor.  Movie theaters are
> disgusting!
>
> I would not take her to a concert, but I have taken her to musicals,
> and I go to classical concerts all the time.  They put her right to
> sleep.  Again, just a personal prefference.  I probably wouldn't take
> my dog to a TSO concert.  Good call.  Way too loud.  Lol!
>
> These are the kinds of decisions you have to make when you have a dog.
> Sometimes you realize after the fact that you probably shouldn't
> taken your dog to a certain place because it just didn't work.  That
> may happen.  As a first time guide dog handler, there are going to be
> times like that, but NAGDU has a great list serve.  You can always ask
> them, and the schools are always willing to help out as well.
>
> I personally have not had many access problems.  I also would not want
> that to stop you from getting a dog.  It is definitely something to
> consider though.
>
> On 11/23/10, autTeal Bloodwortho <tealbloodworth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is so true especially in certain places where people take their pets
>> into stores and say they are working animals. Also i think somebody was
>> talking about concerts. Personally i would not take my guide dog to a
>> concert, movie theatre, or even a club/bar. David does make a very good
>> point though because even though they are welcome to anywhere the general
>> public can go some places will give you a hard time and may end up in
>> something rediculous. Plus i think when going to a hospital or somewhere 
>> it
>> isn't appropriate to take mine because he does still get excited by 
>> certain
>> family members.
>>
>>         -Teal
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
>>
>>
>>> Not to be argumentative, but I can travel as rapidly as most any dog 
>>> user.
>>>
>>> Whether a dog, or a cane, there is a continuum of abilities.
>>>
>>> To me it is mostly a personal preference to use a cane.  One thing, 
>>> about
>>> using a dog, which hasn't been said, I think, is that there are people 
>>> out
>>>
>>> there who are against a dog, and will try and deny you entrance to a
>>> restaurant, taxi, or other public accommodation.  While you have the law
>>> on your side, you also need to be prepared to take on this prejudice --  
>>> in
>>>
>>> addition to all the stuff we get as blind people going through life.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 10:57 AM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>>>>Hi.
>>>>
>>>>I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
>>>>faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
>>>>dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
>>>>then.  I was ready for it though.
>>>>
>>>>The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
>>>>with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
>>>>life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
>>>>her.  I love it.
>>>>
>>>>I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
>>>>for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
>>>>your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
>>>>skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
>>>>lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
>>>>if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
>>>>thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
>>>>happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
>>>>to pay attention to.
>>>>
>>>>Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
>>>>high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
>>>>list.
>>>
>>>         David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com
>>> Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
> 



From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Tue Nov 23 23:04:53 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 17:04:53 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com><A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com><886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413><AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com><auto-000179333672@mailfront2.g2host.com><61C9ECF5568347B9B2F36CE2612DDBA5@PC185582706413>
	<AANLkTinpCc3FYzx+XZT_9OgrEngXvFN40OOO-5Cb+hEX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <55355A4A296E425E81F0CEB36AA9DA72@PC185582706413>

yeah i am from Kentucky and most places around here you are allowed to bring 
your dogs in anyways but i know the school i went to gave us a card with a 
photo of me and my dog and the law on the back. I have only had one problem 
and the girl said "no dogs" and i replied "he is a working dog" and she said 
"those are for blind people". lol this is funny because i am completely 
blind but i was with my boyfriend.

I wanted to add that the schedualing is a big part in where you take your 
dog. We had a problem our first day of school after i got him and he had an 
accident on the floor but that was poor on my part. Also in places like 
church where you are sitting still and quiet for a long time
----- Original Message but that can probably be worked out too

        -Teal
 ----- 
From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> This is definitely a personal prefference.  I will only take my dog to
> one movie theater in the area because the rest are too crowded, and
> there is too much nastiness on the floor.  Movie theaters are
> disgusting!
>
> I would not take her to a concert, but I have taken her to musicals,
> and I go to classical concerts all the time.  They put her right to
> sleep.  Again, just a personal prefference.  I probably wouldn't take
> my dog to a TSO concert.  Good call.  Way too loud.  Lol!
>
> These are the kinds of decisions you have to make when you have a dog.
> Sometimes you realize after the fact that you probably shouldn't
> taken your dog to a certain place because it just didn't work.  That
> may happen.  As a first time guide dog handler, there are going to be
> times like that, but NAGDU has a great list serve.  You can always ask
> them, and the schools are always willing to help out as well.
>
> I personally have not had many access problems.  I also would not want
> that to stop you from getting a dog.  It is definitely something to
> consider though.
>
> On 11/23/10, autTeal Bloodwortho <tealbloodworth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is so true especially in certain places where people take their pets
>> into stores and say they are working animals. Also i think somebody was
>> talking about concerts. Personally i would not take my guide dog to a
>> concert, movie theatre, or even a club/bar. David does make a very good
>> point though because even though they are welcome to anywhere the general
>> public can go some places will give you a hard time and may end up in
>> something rediculous. Plus i think when going to a hospital or somewhere 
>> it
>> isn't appropriate to take mine because he does still get excited by 
>> certain
>> family members.
>>
>>         -Teal
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
>>
>>
>>> Not to be argumentative, but I can travel as rapidly as most any dog 
>>> user.
>>>
>>> Whether a dog, or a cane, there is a continuum of abilities.
>>>
>>> To me it is mostly a personal preference to use a cane.  One thing, 
>>> about
>>> using a dog, which hasn't been said, I think, is that there are people 
>>> out
>>>
>>> there who are against a dog, and will try and deny you entrance to a
>>> restaurant, taxi, or other public accommodation.  While you have the law
>>> on your side, you also need to be prepared to take on this prejudice --  
>>> in
>>>
>>> addition to all the stuff we get as blind people going through life.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 10:57 AM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>>>>Hi.
>>>>
>>>>I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
>>>>faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
>>>>dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
>>>>then.  I was ready for it though.
>>>>
>>>>The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
>>>>with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
>>>>life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
>>>>her.  I love it.
>>>>
>>>>I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
>>>>for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
>>>>your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
>>>>skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
>>>>lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
>>>>if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
>>>>thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
>>>>happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
>>>>to pay attention to.
>>>>
>>>>Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
>>>>high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
>>>>list.
>>>
>>>         David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com
>>> Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
> 



From brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net  Wed Nov 24 01:05:00 2010
From: brian.hatgelakas at verizon.net (Brian Hatgelakas)
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 20:05:00 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Do this class as an independent study!
Message-ID: <001e01cb8b73$9f5663d0$9560c747@BRIAN>

Elizabeth,

I am a recent college graduate from a small liberal arts college in Pittsburgh PA called Point Park University.  I majored in radio broadcasting and mass communications.  Being totally blind I took a mathematical experience class one on one with a certified math teacher from the Math department.  We split it into two semesters where I was given a lesson twice a week one on one and homework assignments were checked and graded.  I worked in conjunction with the disabilities services department and a reader to complete tests.  The professer that worked one on one with me made sure everything was adapted for me and wouldn't move on until I mastered a topic.  In the end I received a B minus and am really proud of that.  I worked hard and showed my appreciation to the teacher for working with me.  Right before graduation I rote a thank you note to the math department chair.

From enews at codefactory.info  Wed Nov 24 01:52:32 2010
From: enews at codefactory.info (Code Factory News (no reply))
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 19:52:32 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Find Your Way with Mobile Speak 4.60 - Support for Nokia
 Ovi Maps
Message-ID: <auto-000182842621@mailfront1.g2host.com>


Logo Code Factory


Caroline Ragot - Marketing Director
<mailto:marketing at codefactory.es>marketing at codefactory.es

Support for Nokia Ovi Maps


Find Your Way with Mobile Speak 4.60




Support for Nokia Ovi Maps




Terrassa (Barcelona), Spain, November 23, 2010

Nokia Ovi Maps... it was surely the most awaited 
feature for a Symbian screen reader but also a 
huge technical challenge. Today, Code Factory’s 
development team is proudly saying to the world 
“YES WE CAN” by announcing Mobile Speak’s support 
for free step-by-step navigation using Nokia Ovi Maps!

“When Wayfinder announced the end of Wayfinder 
Access and our Symbian users were left without 
any other accessible GPS solution for Nokia 
phones, we knew we had to make something work. 
Our commitment towards our users justified the 
decision to take on this new technical challenge 
and the big investment it represented for Code 
Factory,” explained Eduard Sánchez, Code Factory’s CEO.

“We at TalkNav are delighted that Code Factory 
has taken this step to empowering Symbian handset 
users to access the Ovi Maps product. With the 
demise of the Wayfinder Access GPS solution, 
Symbian users had been left quite literally 
stranded, other than opting for a change of 
platform,” says Neil Barnfather, TalkNav owner 
and former Wayfinder Access dealer. “Code 
Factorys efforts in making Ovi Maps accessible to 
this significant number of blind and low vision 
users represents the true emphasis that this 
company puts on making its products the very best that they can be” added Neil.

With Mobile Speak 4.60 you can use versions 3.03 
and 3.04 of Ovi Maps in an accessible way to:
    * Find and track your current GPS position.
    * Start walking or driving and get automatic 
notifications when streets change.
    * Search for specific addresses, points of 
interest and others locations such as hotels and restaurants.
    * Create, edit, follow and save a route in Walk or Drive mode.
    * Bookmark your favorite places and routes, 
or create your own collection of favorite points of interest.
    * Execute Ovi Maps and specialized Mobile 
Speak shortcuts when in Map, Walk or Drive mode. 
For example, when following a route, press 1 to 
speak the next turn, 2 to save your current 
position, 3 to search a point of interest 
browsing by categories, 7 to bring up a list of 
route points, 8 to speak the distance to the 
destination and its direction, 9 to display a 
dashboard with information about distance, speed 
and time, or Clear to speak your current position.
    * Configure new Mobile Speak settings to 
customize your Ovi Maps experience.
    * To learn more about Mobile Speak’s Ovi Maps 
support, please read our FAQ at 
<http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=414>http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=414 
and consult Chapter 14 of our user manual at 
<http://www.codefactory.es/descargas/family_4/ms46_userguide_symbian.html#_Toc278193846>http://www.codefactory.es/descargas/family_4/ms46_userguide_symbian.html#_Toc278193846 


Mobile Speak 4.60 comes FREE for all Mobile Speak 
4.xx users and is now available for download at 
<http://codefactory.es/en/downloads.asp?id=347>http://codefactory.es/en/downloads.asp?id=347 


It is important to check if your version of Nokia 
Ovi Maps and your phone are compatible:
    * Supported versions of Nokia Ovi Maps: v3.03 
and v3.04. These versions provide free step-by 
step pedestrian and car navigation.
    * Nokia phones that work with v3.03 and v3.04 
of Nokia Ovi Maps: E66, E71, N86, C5, E5, E52, 
E55, E72, E73, 6710, 6720, 6730, 6760, 5230, 5800, N97, N97 mini, C6, and X6

Note that only the above Ovi Maps versions and 
Nokia devices are supported by Mobile Speak 4.60. 
If you use any other version or device, Code 
Factory cannot guarantee the correct 
functionality with Ovi Maps, so before upgrading 
your version or device, please make sure it is supported.


In addition to Ovi Maps support, V4.60 also includes:

    * Support for 3 new devices: Nokia 5228, Nokia 5250, and Nokia E55.
    * Support for Mobile Magnifier in all Nokia 
touch devices with new features especially 
designed for touch-screens such as the touch 
magnification lens which can be used in Stylus mode.
    * Support for Mobile Magnifier in various 3rd 
edition phones where it previously was not 
supported: Nokia N86, Nokia E75, Nokia N85, Nokia 5730 and Nokia 6220.
    * Easier way to execute commands using a 
touch-screen: On pressing the Command key, the 
touch mode will automatically change to Keypad 
mode while the Command key is active, regardless 
of the current touch mode. This allows all 
Command key shortcuts to always be easily 
accessible, since all keys can be simulated in 
Keypad mode. Very useful when using the magnification lens in Stylus mode.
    * When "Battery/Signal always" is set to "On" 
in the Verbosity tab, the current time, battery 
level, signal level and operator will be spoken 
when entering into the standby screen from a 
different application. This is a convenient way 
to check these values without needing to use a 
Mobile Speak Command (so it can easily be done 
for example by switching out and back into the 
standby screen, even on slider phones like the 
N86, while keeping the slider closed).
    * A large number of other improvements and 
bug fixes, as detailed in our User Manual here 
<http://www.codefactory.es/descargas/family_4/ms46_userguide_symbian.html#_Toc278193784>http://www.codefactory.es/descargas/family_4/ms46_userguide_symbian.html#_Toc278193784 


If you are a new Mobile Speak user, download 
Mobile Speak 4.60 now at 
<http://codefactory.es/en/downloads.asp?id=347>http://codefactory.es/en/downloads.asp?id=347 
and try it for 30 days for free.

If you are a user of an earlier version of Mobile 
Speak (i.e. v3.82 or earlier) and wish to upgrade 
to Mobile Speak 4.60, contact your distributor to 
purchase an upgrade license. In addition to all 
the improvements and new features of Mobile Speak 
4.00, 4.50 and 4.60, if you purchase an upgrade 
license, you will also get Mobile Magnifier, 
Mobile DAISY Player, Color Recognizer  and the 
Games for free! To consult the complete list of 
Code Factory’s official distributors, visit 
<http://www.codefactory.es/en/page.asp?id=351>http://www.codefactory.es/en/page.asp?id=351 


To learn how to install Mobile Speak 4.60 for 
Symbian for the first time, follow the 
instructions at 
<http://www.codefactory.es/descargas/family_4/ms46_userguide_symbian.html#_Toc278193787>http://www.codefactory.es/descargas/family_4/ms46_userguide_symbian.html#_Toc278193787 


If upgrading from version 3.XX of Mobile Speak, 
make sure to FIRST UNINSTALL all the Code Factory 
packages you have installed and then RESTART the 
device. However if you already have version 4.XX 
installed, just stop Mobile Speak and install 
v4.60. None of the TTS packages have changed 
since v4.00, so there is no need to reinstall 
them. For more information about upgrading, 
follow the instructions at 
<http://www.codefactory.es/descargas/family_4/ms46_userguide_symbian.html#_Toc278193791>http://www.codefactory.es/descargas/family_4/ms46_userguide_symbian.html#_Toc278193791 


To read more about Mobile Speak 4.00 visit 
<http://codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=318>http://codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=318 



About Code Factory

Founded in 1998 and headquartered in Terrassa 
(Barcelona), Spain, Code Factory is the global 
leader committed to the development of products 
designed to eliminate barriers to the 
accessibility of mobile technology for the blind 
and visually impaired. Today, Code Factory is the 
leading provider of screen readers, screen 
magnifiers, and Braille interfaces for the widest 
range of mainstream mobile devices. Among Code 
Factory's customers are well known organizations 
for the blind such as ONCE, and carriers such as 
AT&T, Bouygues Telecom, SFR, TIM and Vodafone. 
Code Factory has also built strong partnerships 
with mainstream multinational companies like RIM, 
Nokia, Microsoft, and Hewlett Packard as well as 
leading assistive technology companies such as 
HumanWare, Optelec and Sendero Group.

For more information, feel free to contact Code Factory S.L.:


Code Factory, S.L., Rambla d'Egara 148 2-2, 08221 Terrassa (Barcelona)
<http://www.codefactory.cat/helpdesk/>HelpDesk, www.codefactory.es
Code Factory, S.L. - 2010




From dkirby at mchsi.com  Wed Nov 24 13:00:32 2010
From: dkirby at mchsi.com (darrel kirby)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 07:00:32 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com>
References: <mailman.15.1290535204.10362.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com>
Message-ID: <75D8B80EA88F4FD6A121E3525DACC422@DHCN2WC1>

Hello All:

I infrequently throw in my two cents, but I think most all blind persons
have an opinion on whether to use a dog or a cane. This most likely explains
why some blind people choose to use a dog and others use a cane. As stupid
as that just might sound, we are forced to have an opinion on the matter. I
warn everyone that it is important to avoid dichotic thinking, i.e. a dog is
ultimately better than the cane or vice versa. Like most things in life, I
am sure there are advantages to both. I prefer not to use the "versus" lingo
when I think of dogs and canes, as it perpetuates the belief that there will
be a winner in the debate. It is a personal preference.  There are five main
reasons that I, Darrel Kirby, choose to stick with my stick and not switch
over to rover:

1. My cane needs no care, i.e. it does not poop, eat, get sick, and rarely
requires a bath. Therefore, when I travel, the speed at which I travel is
quite quick. I grab the cane; walk out the door, and go. No potty breaks,
searching for poop, or stopping to let the curious citizen google over my
dog. 

2. The training of a dog is expensive. Although it might be convenient to
say, "Well, I'm not paying for it." The fact is that tens of thousands of
dollars go into training a dog. In a world where seventy some percent of
blind persons are unemployed, I can think of better places to place the
money. Please remember that this is just my opinion.

3. I think that I would need a cane to travel along with me and my dog, if I
ever had a dog guide. I love my cane because it is an extension of my
fingers/hands and an extension of my eyes. I am able to tap a garbage can or
a chair or a person or a million other things to find what I am looking for.
I red in an earlier posting that people using dogs felt that they "moved
more smoothly." Personally, I want to hit things with my cane. That is how I
know that those things are there.

4. I work at an office for nine hours per day, five days per week. I am not
comfortable having a dog sit below my desk for that amount of time. I
recognize that this is my own perspective. I grew up on a farm with dogs
that ran around and played all day long. It would be a personal challenge to
ask a dog to sit by my side for that amount of time.  

5. I do not feel that a dog guide fits with my personal philosophy of
blindness. I preface this with the fact that I have friends who use dog
guides and I do not condemn anyone for using a dog guide, but the
fundamental concept of my personal philosophy of blindness is that eye sight
is not necessary to navigate this world. If I were to use a dog, I would be
using the eye-sight of a dog. With all the misconceptions of blindness that
already exist; I do not want to convey to the public that eye sight, even if
from a dog, is necessary to travel independently.

I thank you all for reading along this far. These are the five reasons I
would not get a dog. I do not expect the reasons to be adopted by other
blind people. I do not feel that these five reasons are absolute truths.
These reasons are based on my opinion and are subject to change. If any of
these reasons strike a cord with dog users on the post, I ask everyone to
respect my opinion. I will do my best to respect yours.

Respectfully yours,

Darrel Kirby




From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Wed Nov 24 14:26:50 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 08:26:50 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <mailman.15.1290535204.10362.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com>
	<75D8B80EA88F4FD6A121E3525DACC422@DHCN2WC1>
Message-ID: <DCED180EA9134D19BED0F820F84A0523@PC185582706413>

you make some exceptional points which goes back to the initial decision 
making process. For me being in college i am sitting for an hour and 15 
minutes then off to the other class. I still use my cane frequently because 
sometimes if we are just making a quick trip somewhere or i am going 
somewhere already talked about. The main thing that i have acquired by 
obtaining a guide dog is confidence though. I have been completely blind for 
4 years as of last thursday and also i damaged the auditory nerve in the 
right ear and nasal cavities. As you can imagine i have difficulty walking 
in a straight line and hearing certain traffic cues because of the 
continuous ringing in right ear and popping in both ears so for my situation 
a guide dog was a good idea but it is a big responsibility and should be 
thought about in depth.

        -Teal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "darrel kirby" <dkirby at mchsi.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> Hello All:
>
> I infrequently throw in my two cents, but I think most all blind persons
> have an opinion on whether to use a dog or a cane. This most likely 
> explains
> why some blind people choose to use a dog and others use a cane. As stupid
> as that just might sound, we are forced to have an opinion on the matter. 
> I
> warn everyone that it is important to avoid dichotic thinking, i.e. a dog 
> is
> ultimately better than the cane or vice versa. Like most things in life, I
> am sure there are advantages to both. I prefer not to use the "versus" 
> lingo
> when I think of dogs and canes, as it perpetuates the belief that there 
> will
> be a winner in the debate. It is a personal preference.  There are five 
> main
> reasons that I, Darrel Kirby, choose to stick with my stick and not switch
> over to rover:
>
> 1. My cane needs no care, i.e. it does not poop, eat, get sick, and rarely
> requires a bath. Therefore, when I travel, the speed at which I travel is
> quite quick. I grab the cane; walk out the door, and go. No potty breaks,
> searching for poop, or stopping to let the curious citizen google over my
> dog.
>
> 2. The training of a dog is expensive. Although it might be convenient to
> say, "Well, I'm not paying for it." The fact is that tens of thousands of
> dollars go into training a dog. In a world where seventy some percent of
> blind persons are unemployed, I can think of better places to place the
> money. Please remember that this is just my opinion.
>
> 3. I think that I would need a cane to travel along with me and my dog, if 
> I
> ever had a dog guide. I love my cane because it is an extension of my
> fingers/hands and an extension of my eyes. I am able to tap a garbage can 
> or
> a chair or a person or a million other things to find what I am looking 
> for.
> I red in an earlier posting that people using dogs felt that they "moved
> more smoothly." Personally, I want to hit things with my cane. That is how 
> I
> know that those things are there.
>
> 4. I work at an office for nine hours per day, five days per week. I am 
> not
> comfortable having a dog sit below my desk for that amount of time. I
> recognize that this is my own perspective. I grew up on a farm with dogs
> that ran around and played all day long. It would be a personal challenge 
> to
> ask a dog to sit by my side for that amount of time.
>
> 5. I do not feel that a dog guide fits with my personal philosophy of
> blindness. I preface this with the fact that I have friends who use dog
> guides and I do not condemn anyone for using a dog guide, but the
> fundamental concept of my personal philosophy of blindness is that eye 
> sight
> is not necessary to navigate this world. If I were to use a dog, I would 
> be
> using the eye-sight of a dog. With all the misconceptions of blindness 
> that
> already exist; I do not want to convey to the public that eye sight, even 
> if
> from a dog, is necessary to travel independently.
>
> I thank you all for reading along this far. These are the five reasons I
> would not get a dog. I do not expect the reasons to be adopted by other
> blind people. I do not feel that these five reasons are absolute truths.
> These reasons are based on my opinion and are subject to change. If any of
> these reasons strike a cord with dog users on the post, I ask everyone to
> respect my opinion. I will do my best to respect yours.
>
> Respectfully yours,
>
> Darrel Kirby
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
> 



From tealbloodworth at gmail.com  Wed Nov 24 14:28:01 2010
From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 08:28:01 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <mailman.15.1290535204.10362.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com>
	<75D8B80EA88F4FD6A121E3525DACC422@DHCN2WC1>
Message-ID: <3495329144624C468318868C4A0791B2@PC185582706413>

you make some exceptional points which goes back to the initial decision
making process. For me being in college i am sitting for an hour and 15
minutes then off to the other class. I still use my cane frequently because
sometimes if we are just making a quick trip somewhere or i am going
somewhere already talked about. The main thing that i have acquired by
obtaining a guide dog is confidence though. I have been completely blind for
4 years as of last thursday and also i damaged the auditory nerve in the
right ear and nasal cavities. As you can imagine i have difficulty walking
in a straight line and hearing certain traffic cues because of the
continuous ringing in right ear and popping in both ears so for my situation
a guide dog was a good idea but it is a big responsibility and should be
thought about in depth.

        -Teal
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "darrel kirby" <dkirby at mchsi.com>
To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> Hello All:
>
> I infrequently throw in my two cents, but I think most all blind persons
> have an opinion on whether to use a dog or a cane. This most likely
> explains
> why some blind people choose to use a dog and others use a cane. As stupid
> as that just might sound, we are forced to have an opinion on the matter.
> I
> warn everyone that it is important to avoid dichotic thinking, i.e. a dog
> is
> ultimately better than the cane or vice versa. Like most things in life, I
> am sure there are advantages to both. I prefer not to use the "versus"
> lingo
> when I think of dogs and canes, as it perpetuates the belief that there
> will
> be a winner in the debate. It is a personal preference.  There are five
> main
> reasons that I, Darrel Kirby, choose to stick with my stick and not switch
> over to rover:
>
> 1. My cane needs no care, i.e. it does not poop, eat, get sick, and rarely
> requires a bath. Therefore, when I travel, the speed at which I travel is
> quite quick. I grab the cane; walk out the door, and go. No potty breaks,
> searching for poop, or stopping to let the curious citizen google over my
> dog.
>
> 2. The training of a dog is expensive. Although it might be convenient to
> say, "Well, I'm not paying for it." The fact is that tens of thousands of
> dollars go into training a dog. In a world where seventy some percent of
> blind persons are unemployed, I can think of better places to place the
> money. Please remember that this is just my opinion.
>
> 3. I think that I would need a cane to travel along with me and my dog, if
> I
> ever had a dog guide. I love my cane because it is an extension of my
> fingers/hands and an extension of my eyes. I am able to tap a garbage can
> or
> a chair or a person or a million other things to find what I am looking
> for.
> I red in an earlier posting that people using dogs felt that they "moved
> more smoothly." Personally, I want to hit things with my cane. That is how
> I
> know that those things are there.
>
> 4. I work at an office for nine hours per day, five days per week. I am
> not
> comfortable having a dog sit below my desk for that amount of time. I
> recognize that this is my own perspective. I grew up on a farm with dogs
> that ran around and played all day long. It would be a personal challenge
> to
> ask a dog to sit by my side for that amount of time.
>
> 5. I do not feel that a dog guide fits with my personal philosophy of
> blindness. I preface this with the fact that I have friends who use dog
> guides and I do not condemn anyone for using a dog guide, but the
> fundamental concept of my personal philosophy of blindness is that eye
> sight
> is not necessary to navigate this world. If I were to use a dog, I would
> be
> using the eye-sight of a dog. With all the misconceptions of blindness
> that
> already exist; I do not want to convey to the public that eye sight, even
> if
> from a dog, is necessary to travel independently.
>
> I thank you all for reading along this far. These are the five reasons I
> would not get a dog. I do not expect the reasons to be adopted by other
> blind people. I do not feel that these five reasons are absolute truths.
> These reasons are based on my opinion and are subject to change. If any of
> these reasons strike a cord with dog users on the post, I ask everyone to
> respect my opinion. I will do my best to respect yours.
>
> Respectfully yours,
>
> Darrel Kirby
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>



From brileyp at gmail.com  Wed Nov 24 15:56:16 2010
From: brileyp at gmail.com (Briley Pollard)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 10:56:16 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <3495329144624C468318868C4A0791B2@PC185582706413>
References: <mailman.15.1290535204.10362.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com>
	<75D8B80EA88F4FD6A121E3525DACC422@DHCN2WC1>
	<3495329144624C468318868C4A0791B2@PC185582706413>
Message-ID: <AAF74943-6A91-464B-9CF7-B543012667ED@gmail.com>

Hello all,

A good many points I'd normally bring up have already been mentioned, so I shall do my best to be brief.

The biggest thing to remember when getting a dog is that the dog is not a GPS system. unfortunately, too many people get a dog because they are afraid of their cane or find it to be inferior to the dog. This is not correct. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, but overall they serve the same purpose; to enable the bind individual in getting where they need to go safely. Orientation skills are curtail if you are going to use your dog to its full potential. There are times when it is not appropriate to use a dog, (which has already been aptly covered), so one must still be comfortable with the cane. Additionally, emergencies happen, and dogs eventually retire. Life situations change, and a dog may no longer be the best option for your lifestyle. My personal viewpoint is that a dog thrives best in an active environment. While I know there are individuals on this list who received dogs in high school, (and it worked for them), is that this is not the best idea. Firstly, unless you are in a unique situation where your campus has multiple buildings, or you participate in many activities which you walk to or use public transportation often, the dog is realistically spending 8 hours a day in one building packed to the brim with teenagers who often will not be respectful of the rules regarding petting and feeding the service animal. There are exceptions to this obviously,  but in general, I think college is a good time to get a dog, if one is looking to do this. College is a huge transition for anyone, and it is difficult for a student to move from living at home and going to a high school to living in a dorm, not to mention the social transitions. Imagine doing this with a dog. 

These are just some things to think about.

Best,
Briley  
On Nov 24, 2010, at 9:28 AM, autTeal Bloodwortho wrote:

> you make some exceptional points which goes back to the initial decision
> making process. For me being in college i am sitting for an hour and 15
> minutes then off to the other class. I still use my cane frequently because
> sometimes if we are just making a quick trip somewhere or i am going
> somewhere already talked about. The main thing that i have acquired by
> obtaining a guide dog is confidence though. I have been completely blind for
> 4 years as of last thursday and also i damaged the auditory nerve in the
> right ear and nasal cavities. As you can imagine i have difficulty walking
> in a straight line and hearing certain traffic cues because of the
> continuous ringing in right ear and popping in both ears so for my situation
> a guide dog was a good idea but it is a big responsibility and should be
> thought about in depth.
> 
>       -Teal
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "darrel kirby" <dkirby at mchsi.com>
> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
> 
> 
>> Hello All:
>> 
>> I infrequently throw in my two cents, but I think most all blind persons
>> have an opinion on whether to use a dog or a cane. This most likely
>> explains
>> why some blind people choose to use a dog and others use a cane. As stupid
>> as that just might sound, we are forced to have an opinion on the matter.
>> I
>> warn everyone that it is important to avoid dichotic thinking, i.e. a dog
>> is
>> ultimately better than the cane or vice versa. Like most things in life, I
>> am sure there are advantages to both. I prefer not to use the "versus"
>> lingo
>> when I think of dogs and canes, as it perpetuates the belief that there
>> will
>> be a winner in the debate. It is a personal preference.  There are five
>> main
>> reasons that I, Darrel Kirby, choose to stick with my stick and not switch
>> over to rover:
>> 
>> 1. My cane needs no care, i.e. it does not poop, eat, get sick, and rarely
>> requires a bath. Therefore, when I travel, the speed at which I travel is
>> quite quick. I grab the cane; walk out the door, and go. No potty breaks,
>> searching for poop, or stopping to let the curious citizen google over my
>> dog.
>> 
>> 2. The training of a dog is expensive. Although it might be convenient to
>> say, "Well, I'm not paying for it." The fact is that tens of thousands of
>> dollars go into training a dog. In a world where seventy some percent of
>> blind persons are unemployed, I can think of better places to place the
>> money. Please remember that this is just my opinion.
>> 
>> 3. I think that I would need a cane to travel along with me and my dog, if
>> I
>> ever had a dog guide. I love my cane because it is an extension of my
>> fingers/hands and an extension of my eyes. I am able to tap a garbage can
>> or
>> a chair or a person or a million other things to find what I am looking
>> for.
>> I red in an earlier posting that people using dogs felt that they "moved
>> more smoothly." Personally, I want to hit things with my cane. That is how
>> I
>> know that those things are there.
>> 
>> 4. I work at an office for nine hours per day, five days per week. I am
>> not
>> comfortable having a dog sit below my desk for that amount of time. I
>> recognize that this is my own perspective. I grew up on a farm with dogs
>> that ran around and played all day long. It would be a personal challenge
>> to
>> ask a dog to sit by my side for that amount of time.
>> 
>> 5. I do not feel that a dog guide fits with my personal philosophy of
>> blindness. I preface this with the fact that I have friends who use dog
>> guides and I do not condemn anyone for using a dog guide, but the
>> fundamental concept of my personal philosophy of blindness is that eye
>> sight
>> is not necessary to navigate this world. If I were to use a dog, I would
>> be
>> using the eye-sight of a dog. With all the misconceptions of blindness
>> that
>> already exist; I do not want to convey to the public that eye sight, even
>> if
>> from a dog, is necessary to travel independently.
>> 
>> I thank you all for reading along this far. These are the five reasons I
>> would not get a dog. I do not expect the reasons to be adopted by other
>> blind people. I do not feel that these five reasons are absolute truths.
>> These reasons are based on my opinion and are subject to change. If any of
>> these reasons strike a cord with dog users on the post, I ask everyone to
>> respect my opinion. I will do my best to respect yours.
>> 
>> Respectfully yours,
>> 
>> Darrel Kirby
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Wed Nov 24 16:13:18 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 08:13:18 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <mailman.15.1290535204.10362.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com><75D8B80EA88F4FD6A121E3525DACC422@DHCN2WC1><3495329144624C468318868C4A0791B2@PC185582706413>
	<AAF74943-6A91-464B-9CF7-B543012667ED@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5AAF876F4503461C917119F1B3BA8563@stanford.edu>

I got my guide dog the summer between my junior and senior years of high 
school, and I feel that it was a perfect time. It gave us time to bond while 
I was still in an environment that I knew, but, like someone else said, it 
did not keep the dog in a boring environment too long.

    Something else that I do not think has been brought up yet is trusting 
your dog. I still have a tiny bit of vision, but I know that relaying on it 
to see obstacles would not be safe, so I do not even try. You have to trust 
you dog and not try to go against or act before their decisions. This is 
another reason that I feel that it is important to bond with your dog in an 
environment that you know so that you can tell with certainty whether or not 
your dog is doing its job correctly.

Nicole and guide dog Lexia

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Briley Pollard" <brileyp at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:56 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> Hello all,
>
> A good many points I'd normally bring up have already been mentioned, so I 
> shall do my best to be brief.
>
> The biggest thing to remember when getting a dog is that the dog is not a 
> GPS system. unfortunately, too many people get a dog because they are 
> afraid of their cane or find it to be inferior to the dog. This is not 
> correct. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, but overall they 
> serve the same purpose; to enable the bind individual in getting where 
> they need to go safely. Orientation skills are curtail if you are going to 
> use your dog to its full potential. There are times when it is not 
> appropriate to use a dog, (which has already been aptly covered), so one 
> must still be comfortable with the cane. Additionally, emergencies happen, 
> and dogs eventually retire. Life situations change, and a dog may no 
> longer be the best option for your lifestyle. My personal viewpoint is 
> that a dog thrives best in an active environment. While I know there are 
> individuals on this list who received dogs in high school, (and it worked 
> for them), is that this is not the best idea. Firstly, unless you are in a 
> unique situation where your campus has multiple buildings, or you 
> participate in many activities which you walk to or use public 
> transportation often, the dog is realistically spending 8 hours a day in 
> one building packed to the brim with teenagers who often will not be 
> respectful of the rules regarding petting and feeding the service animal. 
> There are exceptions to this obviously,  but in general, I think college 
> is a good time to get a dog, if one is looking to do this. College is a 
> huge transition for anyone, and it is difficult for a student to move from 
> living at home and going to a high school to living in a dorm, not to 
> mention the social transitions. Imagine doing this with a dog.
>
> These are just some things to think about.
>
> Best,
> Briley
> On Nov 24, 2010, at 9:28 AM, autTeal Bloodwortho wrote:
>
>> you make some exceptional points which goes back to the initial decision
>> making process. For me being in college i am sitting for an hour and 15
>> minutes then off to the other class. I still use my cane frequently 
>> because
>> sometimes if we are just making a quick trip somewhere or i am going
>> somewhere already talked about. The main thing that i have acquired by
>> obtaining a guide dog is confidence though. I have been completely blind 
>> for
>> 4 years as of last thursday and also i damaged the auditory nerve in the
>> right ear and nasal cavities. As you can imagine i have difficulty 
>> walking
>> in a straight line and hearing certain traffic cues because of the
>> continuous ringing in right ear and popping in both ears so for my 
>> situation
>> a guide dog was a good idea but it is a big responsibility and should be
>> thought about in depth.
>>
>>       -Teal
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "darrel kirby" <dkirby at mchsi.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:00 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
>>
>>
>>> Hello All:
>>>
>>> I infrequently throw in my two cents, but I think most all blind persons
>>> have an opinion on whether to use a dog or a cane. This most likely
>>> explains
>>> why some blind people choose to use a dog and others use a cane. As 
>>> stupid
>>> as that just might sound, we are forced to have an opinion on the 
>>> matter.
>>> I
>>> warn everyone that it is important to avoid dichotic thinking, i.e. a 
>>> dog
>>> is
>>> ultimately better than the cane or vice versa. Like most things in life, 
>>> I
>>> am sure there are advantages to both. I prefer not to use the "versus"
>>> lingo
>>> when I think of dogs and canes, as it perpetuates the belief that there
>>> will
>>> be a winner in the debate. It is a personal preference.  There are five
>>> main
>>> reasons that I, Darrel Kirby, choose to stick with my stick and not 
>>> switch
>>> over to rover:
>>>
>>> 1. My cane needs no care, i.e. it does not poop, eat, get sick, and 
>>> rarely
>>> requires a bath. Therefore, when I travel, the speed at which I travel 
>>> is
>>> quite quick. I grab the cane; walk out the door, and go. No potty 
>>> breaks,
>>> searching for poop, or stopping to let the curious citizen google over 
>>> my
>>> dog.
>>>
>>> 2. The training of a dog is expensive. Although it might be convenient 
>>> to
>>> say, "Well, I'm not paying for it." The fact is that tens of thousands 
>>> of
>>> dollars go into training a dog. In a world where seventy some percent of
>>> blind persons are unemployed, I can think of better places to place the
>>> money. Please remember that this is just my opinion.
>>>
>>> 3. I think that I would need a cane to travel along with me and my dog, 
>>> if
>>> I
>>> ever had a dog guide. I love my cane because it is an extension of my
>>> fingers/hands and an extension of my eyes. I am able to tap a garbage 
>>> can
>>> or
>>> a chair or a person or a million other things to find what I am looking
>>> for.
>>> I red in an earlier posting that people using dogs felt that they "moved
>>> more smoothly." Personally, I want to hit things with my cane. That is 
>>> how
>>> I
>>> know that those things are there.
>>>
>>> 4. I work at an office for nine hours per day, five days per week. I am
>>> not
>>> comfortable having a dog sit below my desk for that amount of time. I
>>> recognize that this is my own perspective. I grew up on a farm with dogs
>>> that ran around and played all day long. It would be a personal 
>>> challenge
>>> to
>>> ask a dog to sit by my side for that amount of time.
>>>
>>> 5. I do not feel that a dog guide fits with my personal philosophy of
>>> blindness. I preface this with the fact that I have friends who use dog
>>> guides and I do not condemn anyone for using a dog guide, but the
>>> fundamental concept of my personal philosophy of blindness is that eye
>>> sight
>>> is not necessary to navigate this world. If I were to use a dog, I would
>>> be
>>> using the eye-sight of a dog. With all the misconceptions of blindness
>>> that
>>> already exist; I do not want to convey to the public that eye sight, 
>>> even
>>> if
>>> from a dog, is necessary to travel independently.
>>>
>>> I thank you all for reading along this far. These are the five reasons I
>>> would not get a dog. I do not expect the reasons to be adopted by other
>>> blind people. I do not feel that these five reasons are absolute truths.
>>> These reasons are based on my opinion and are subject to change. If any 
>>> of
>>> these reasons strike a cord with dog users on the post, I ask everyone 
>>> to
>>> respect my opinion. I will do my best to respect yours.
>>>
>>> Respectfully yours,
>>>
>>> Darrel Kirby
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Wed Nov 24 17:37:43 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 09:37:43 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com><A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com><886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413><AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com><auto-000179333672@mailfront2.g2host.com><61C9ECF5568347B9B2F36CE2612DDBA5@PC185582706413>
	<AANLkTinpCc3FYzx+XZT_9OgrEngXvFN40OOO-5Cb+hEX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EBF4ACEF539E4A37A35C39CAE2209668@stanford.edu>

I have only had one minor access problem. I, too, do not take my dog to
concerts and movie theaters. The one time that I can recall taking her to a
movie theater was because I was going to other places before and after and 
it would have been too long to leave her at home without her mid-day snack 
and relieving.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Julie McGinnity" <kaybaycar at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> This is definitely a personal prefference.  I will only take my dog to
> one movie theater in the area because the rest are too crowded, and
> there is too much nastiness on the floor.  Movie theaters are
> disgusting!
>
> I would not take her to a concert, but I have taken her to musicals,
> and I go to classical concerts all the time.  They put her right to
> sleep.  Again, just a personal prefference.  I probably wouldn't take
> my dog to a TSO concert.  Good call.  Way too loud.  Lol!
>
> These are the kinds of decisions you have to make when you have a dog.
> Sometimes you realize after the fact that you probably shouldn't
> taken your dog to a certain place because it just didn't work.  That
> may happen.  As a first time guide dog handler, there are going to be
> times like that, but NAGDU has a great list serve.  You can always ask
> them, and the schools are always willing to help out as well.
>
> I personally have not had many access problems.  I also would not want
> that to stop you from getting a dog.  It is definitely something to
> consider though.
>
> On 11/23/10, autTeal Bloodwortho <tealbloodworth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is so true especially in certain places where people take their pets
>> into stores and say they are working animals. Also i think somebody was
>> talking about concerts. Personally i would not take my guide dog to a
>> concert, movie theatre, or even a club/bar. David does make a very good
>> point though because even though they are welcome to anywhere the general
>> public can go some places will give you a hard time and may end up in
>> something rediculous. Plus i think when going to a hospital or somewhere
>> it
>> isn't appropriate to take mine because he does still get excited by
>> certain
>> family members.
>>
>>         -Teal
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
>>
>>
>>> Not to be argumentative, but I can travel as rapidly as most any dog
>>> user.
>>>
>>> Whether a dog, or a cane, there is a continuum of abilities.
>>>
>>> To me it is mostly a personal preference to use a cane.  One thing,
>>> about
>>> using a dog, which hasn't been said, I think, is that there are people
>>> out
>>>
>>> there who are against a dog, and will try and deny you entrance to a
>>> restaurant, taxi, or other public accommodation.  While you have the law
>>> on your side, you also need to be prepared to take on this prejudice --
>>> in
>>>
>>> addition to all the stuff we get as blind people going through life.
>>>
>>> Dave
>>>
>>> At 10:57 AM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>>>>Hi.
>>>>
>>>>I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
>>>>faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
>>>>dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
>>>>then.  I was ready for it though.
>>>>
>>>>The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
>>>>with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
>>>>life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
>>>>her.  I love it.
>>>>
>>>>I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
>>>>for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
>>>>your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
>>>>skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
>>>>lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
>>>>if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
>>>>thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
>>>>happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
>>>>to pay attention to.
>>>>
>>>>Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
>>>>high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
>>>>list.
>>>
>>>         David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com
>>> Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
>
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
>
> _______________________________________________
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> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
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From loneblindjedi at samobile.net  Wed Nov 24 18:38:02 2010
From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:38:02 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Report on the football/basketball game
Message-ID: <20101124183802.26591.60984@ip-10-122-73-77.ec2.internal>

Keri,

And now you know you can just take off. So definitely, I would the next 
time you get an opportunity similar to the basketball game.

About your mom. Some people won't ever get it no matter how many times 
you show them that you can do something. So don't be terribly surprised 
if, after having seen you walk successfully with your cane, your mom 
still freaks out. If that's the caswe, I'd try these strategies: give 
her a Kernel book or try to explain your need for independence in terms 
she can understand. Everyone, sighted or blind, has had overbearing 
people in their lives who, for whatever reason, act like the person 
seeking independence is incompetent. For most sighted people, that 
generally takes the form of parents or supervisors at work. People in 
that situation generally think "Gosh, I wish so-and-so would just let 
me be!" See if you can't reach her on that level and help her see the 
analogy between that sort of experience and her freaking out over your 
cane. Try to help her understand that the experiences aren't so 
different by communicating how her freaking out makes you feel. Chances 
are that she'll see the analogy just by identifying her own experiences 
in yours. I've been using this strategy lately, and it seems to work 
well with sighted people, especially when the "I can do anything" talk doesn't.

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Hi All!

> Sorry for the long delay.

> Things for the basketball/football game went okay.

> For the basketball game I did excellent. I used my cane the entire time.

> I got directions in when I was dropped off and walked in by myself.
> There were a million people around to follow and I could tell when I
> was nearing the door because the sound of my cane changed and I could
> smell the inside of the building (the Coliseum has a distinct smell.)

> As soon as I walked in someone took my ticket. I was introduced to a
> man named Jason who would walk me to my seat.

> Instead of taking his arm though, I asked him if he could walk beside
> me and give me directions. We had to walk all the way across the
> Coliseum to the other side to get to the seats.

> While we were walking he said "You do good with that stick." I
> explained that it was a white cane and that it helps me get around,
> and that I am much more independent when I use it and it conveys much
> more information to me than when I take someone's arm.

> We arrived at my seat and I was so excited...I had just walked all
> across the Coliseum by myself without being guided.

> I thanked Jason for giving such good directions and allowing me to use
> my cane...some people don't like giving directions or act strangely
> but he did really well!

> At halftime, I was starving so decided to get a hotdog.

> I wasn't sure where the concession stand was but because I had used my
> cane I had some idea of where to go.

> After asking a few people for directions (they all gave directions and
> did not guide) I made it to the concession stand, got my hotdogs, and
> went back.

> Again I was so excited with myself.

> When the game was over I knew I needed to get back to the door I was
> dropped off at and I knew it was on the other side of the coliseum.

> There is a walkway between the seats. On one side are the seats, and
> on the other is a wall with openings to hallways you can turn down.
> There was noone around, so I just guessed which direction to start
> heading. I had a pretty good feeling I was going the right way because
> I had used the cane to get to the seats so was pretty sure of how to
> reverse.

> I ran into several people along the way, and they reassured me I was
> going the right way. I walked fast, confidently.

> After walking a while, I ran into someone else who told me I had
> passed the opening to turn down to get to the blue gate. I turned
> around and it was right there;I had just passed it.

> I turned into the opening and began walking toward the door.

> Just as I had done with coming in I sort of followed all the people
> who were also going to the door. I could also feel the cold air coming
> from outside.

> As I was at the rug that led to the doors, I heard a little girl from
> somewhere amongst all the people say something like "Mommy where is
> she going? Does she know where she is going?" tThere were a ton of
> people around so it was hard to hear, but I thought I heard the mother
> reply "Shhhh, let her walk."

> I also ran into three people I knew.

> I went outside and found the curb with no problem. Again, because I
> used my cane I vaguely knew where to go.

> The next day was the football game. At the very last minute, my mother
> decided she wanted to go to the football game with me since we did
> have an extra ticket. Because it was my birthday, and I wanted to
> spend time with Mom, I decided she could come with me. However, Things
> did not go so well at the football game. I tried to compromise with
> Mom to let me have some independent travel, and I tried to do what you
> guys suggested: pay attention to where we were going. To make a long
> story short, I did get to use my cane with Mom giving directions to
> get out of the stadium and it went okay. I think looking back I
> could've done the entire thing by myself...there are ushers at the
> bottom of the steps to every section, everyone ws very nice, and they
> even have a texting program where you can text the word "aid" to a
> certain number if you need assistance and someone will come over to
> help you. I found out later the reason Mom did not let me use my cane
> more during the game was because she doesn't think I am good enough
> with it in "dangerous" situations. She was mainly afraid I would fall
> on the concrete steps and hurt myself, however as I pointed out my
> cane is long enough that it comes to steps two steps ahead and I cover
> very well so I get plenty of warning. I have never fallen or gotten
> hurt when using my cane;if anything it has prevented many injuries.

> I was initially very upset with Mom for not trusting me. However, last
> Monday was my actual birthday and I was determined to make up for the
> lack of cane use during the football game and use my cane the entire
> day since it was my birthday.

> We first went to a restaurant for lunch. There were three of us;me, my
> mother, and her friend. After I had ordered (I was first) instead of
> standing around waiting for the others to order, I took off and went
> exploring to try to find us a table. I came to the cluster of tables
> and went around to each table and checked to see if there were three
> seats. Eventually I came to one which had three chairs and sat down.
> So, for the first time I had found us all a table on my own.

> After we had finished, my mother was talking to her friend outside
> before they parted. I was going to go with her to Target to get some
> new clothes. I wanted a refill on my drink so again got up, tand took
> off in search of the fountain. Soon, and after asking a couple of
> people I found it and got more Coke.

> At Target again I used my cane the entire time. I had to try on
> several pairs of jeans and since we could not find any pairs that fit
> we had to go from the dressing room across the store , to the isles of
> jeans and back sevral times. With mom giving directions I used the
> cane. It came to every obsticle;the isles were very narrow with racks
> of clothing on each side and various obsticles sitting between them
> where you could walk. The cane to everything; and each time it hit an
> obsticle or I successfully went through a very narrow isle I called to
> Mom, who was in front of me "See how the cane comes to these things?"

> Even though I did not get to use my cane as much as I would've liked
> at the football game, I'd like to think I made up for it on my
> birthday. I hope my mother saw and really realized how the cane
> prevents me from getting hurt and how it comes to every obsticle and
> how I can navigate narrow isles/passageways without runnning into
> anything with my body.

> I learned a lot from the three days. You do never know who you run
> into; the people who saw me at the basketball game and target saw a
> blind girl who was using her cane independently; they did not see a
> blind girl holding onto someone's arm.

> I wonder what kind of discussion that little girl and her mother had
> afterwords in the car. Maybe the mother was able to educate the little
> girl on independence of blind people.

> Now, if Jason ever escorts another blind person at a basketball game
> he will know the stick is actually a white cane and that it symbolizes
> independence.

> I now know how to manage my mother when she is worried or is
> overprotective;I just take off.

> I am very proud of myself for not only using my cane but for the
> independence I was able to show to those who saw me, and to those who
> encountered me. This makes me want to work even harder to not back
> down to those who want to overly help and really really use my cane in
> every situation.

> Thanks for all your help;without your encouragement and advice I'm not
> sure I would've been able to do the basketball game by myself.

> There is one more home football game left on Dec. 5. Who knows, I may
> just take off with my cane and try doing it alone just like the
> basketball game.

> Kerri

> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net

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Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network.  Visit 
www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere.



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Wed Nov 24 20:05:12 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 12:05:12 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] An iPhone Website that I Designed
Message-ID: <FECBE3DA7BEE4B1786FCB062ED75483F@stanford.edu>

As part of one of my courses this quarter, a team of students and myself designed a website with information about sales in a store for use by the blind on iPhones. The website does not have real information on it, but we are testing it to see what people think of it. You can find it at
http://www.stanford.edu/~boval/deals2
and, if you would like to get paid for testing it and don't mind answering a few questions about it, you can find it at Mechanical Turk by searching for blind.

Nicole

From dandrews at visi.com  Thu Nov 25 04:38:37 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 22:38:37 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Some Advice on Using Readers
In-Reply-To: <COL118-W427B5C5D45DAFABF54432EBA3E0@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.19.1290448806.6469.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<003d01cb8b40$fe48c1e0$fada45a0$@com>
	<4FE44BF14AC34BC5A5D2795F09349094@Ashley>
	<COL118-W427B5C5D45DAFABF54432EBA3E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <auto-000183033360@mailfront1.g2host.com>

I am not an expert in these things, I don't know to what extent your 
DSS office can dictate to you what happens in class.  One thing you 
said jumped out at me though, that was that they consider any home 
reader to be a tutor.  That is the most stupid thing I have ever 
heard.  In the old days human readers were all we had, and they can 
still be a valuable tool despite computers and e-texts etc.  These 
people are controlling and trying to run your life, not assist you in 
getting an education.

Dave

At 04:12 PM 11/23/2010, you wrote:

>Hello List,
>
>I am wondering if someone might be able to help me out with a 
>particular situation while using a reader. I am signed up to take a 
>math class next semester, and I would like to be able to use the 
>same reader when taking my tests in class as well as the homework 
>assignments outside of class.
>
>However, according to the guidelines of my college disability 
>office, this is not something I am permitted to do. I can only use 
>the readers from the disability office for in class activities as 
>they consider the use of a reader outside of class to be a tutor and 
>not a reader. However, at the same time I cannot use my own reader 
>when taking a test because somehow it compromises the integrity of the test.
>
>Since math is not my best subject, I would like to be able to use 
>the same reader for testing accommodations and homework assignments. 
>Does anyone know how I might be able to accomplish this goal, or am 
>I basically stuck with having to use two different readers for this 
>class? I have already spoken with the disabilities office about 
>this, and it appears as though they are not willing to budge on this 
>issue. Does anyone else have any ideas on what I might be able to do?
>
>Thanks,
>Elizabeth



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Thu Nov 25 08:12:53 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 03:12:53 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <AAF74943-6A91-464B-9CF7-B543012667ED@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.15.1290535204.10362.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com>
	<75D8B80EA88F4FD6A121E3525DACC422@DHCN2WC1>
	<3495329144624C468318868C4A0791B2@PC185582706413>
	<AAF74943-6A91-464B-9CF7-B543012667ED@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <272C3C2A-6609-4F16-8A2D-845AF05A548D@gmail.com>

Hi,
I got my dog when I was 14, and it really worked for me. I'm just trying to give an example of a case where getting a dog was really a good option. I lived in a large city and took public transportation all the time to go back and forth from school. Also, I had to walk to several places every day which were 15 minutes away from home or so. From age 12 to 14 I basically did all that with the cane, and it was OK. But with the dog it became much faster. Especially in large cities I find that a dog is extremely useful because many things move or change every day. Sometimes there is construction going on, sometimes a tree falls...who knows. With the cane it takes time to figure all that out, but with the dog it's fairly easy and as long as one has a good sense of orientation things happen way faster.
When I came to college in the US three years ago the environment changed a lot, because instead of living in a large city I was in a college town, with many opened spaces etc. The dog doesn't seem to have any problem with that and things are still working well.

Ignasi
On Nov 24, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Briley Pollard wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> A good many points I'd normally bring up have already been mentioned, so I shall do my best to be brief.
> 
> The biggest thing to remember when getting a dog is that the dog is not a GPS system. unfortunately, too many people get a dog because they are afraid of their cane or find it to be inferior to the dog. This is not correct. There are advantages and disadvantages to both, but overall they serve the same purpose; to enable the bind individual in getting where they need to go safely. Orientation skills are curtail if you are going to use your dog to its full potential. There are times when it is not appropriate to use a dog, (which has already been aptly covered), so one must still be comfortable with the cane. Additionally, emergencies happen, and dogs eventually retire. Life situations change, and a dog may no longer be the best option for your lifestyle. My personal viewpoint is that a dog thrives best in an active environment. While I know there are individuals on this list who received dogs in high school, (and it worked for them), is that this is not the best idea. Firstly, unless you are in a unique situation where your campus has multiple buildings, or you participate in many activities which you walk to or use public transportation often, the dog is realistically spending 8 hours a day in one building packed to the brim with teenagers who often will not be respectful of the rules regarding petting and feeding the service animal. There are exceptions to this obviously,  but in general, I think college is a good time to get a dog, if one is looking to do this. College is a huge transition for anyone, and it is difficult for a student to move from living at home and going to a high school to living in a dorm, not to mention the social transitions. Imagine doing this with a dog. 
> 
> These are just some things to think about.
> 
> Best,
> Briley  
> On Nov 24, 2010, at 9:28 AM, autTeal Bloodwortho wrote:
> 
>> you make some exceptional points which goes back to the initial decision
>> making process. For me being in college i am sitting for an hour and 15
>> minutes then off to the other class. I still use my cane frequently because
>> sometimes if we are just making a quick trip somewhere or i am going
>> somewhere already talked about. The main thing that i have acquired by
>> obtaining a guide dog is confidence though. I have been completely blind for
>> 4 years as of last thursday and also i damaged the auditory nerve in the
>> right ear and nasal cavities. As you can imagine i have difficulty walking
>> in a straight line and hearing certain traffic cues because of the
>> continuous ringing in right ear and popping in both ears so for my situation
>> a guide dog was a good idea but it is a big responsibility and should be
>> thought about in depth.
>> 
>>      -Teal
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "darrel kirby" <dkirby at mchsi.com>
>> To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 7:00 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
>> 
>> 
>>> Hello All:
>>> 
>>> I infrequently throw in my two cents, but I think most all blind persons
>>> have an opinion on whether to use a dog or a cane. This most likely
>>> explains
>>> why some blind people choose to use a dog and others use a cane. As stupid
>>> as that just might sound, we are forced to have an opinion on the matter.
>>> I
>>> warn everyone that it is important to avoid dichotic thinking, i.e. a dog
>>> is
>>> ultimately better than the cane or vice versa. Like most things in life, I
>>> am sure there are advantages to both. I prefer not to use the "versus"
>>> lingo
>>> when I think of dogs and canes, as it perpetuates the belief that there
>>> will
>>> be a winner in the debate. It is a personal preference.  There are five
>>> main
>>> reasons that I, Darrel Kirby, choose to stick with my stick and not switch
>>> over to rover:
>>> 
>>> 1. My cane needs no care, i.e. it does not poop, eat, get sick, and rarely
>>> requires a bath. Therefore, when I travel, the speed at which I travel is
>>> quite quick. I grab the cane; walk out the door, and go. No potty breaks,
>>> searching for poop, or stopping to let the curious citizen google over my
>>> dog.
>>> 
>>> 2. The training of a dog is expensive. Although it might be convenient to
>>> say, "Well, I'm not paying for it." The fact is that tens of thousands of
>>> dollars go into training a dog. In a world where seventy some percent of
>>> blind persons are unemployed, I can think of better places to place the
>>> money. Please remember that this is just my opinion.
>>> 
>>> 3. I think that I would need a cane to travel along with me and my dog, if
>>> I
>>> ever had a dog guide. I love my cane because it is an extension of my
>>> fingers/hands and an extension of my eyes. I am able to tap a garbage can
>>> or
>>> a chair or a person or a million other things to find what I am looking
>>> for.
>>> I red in an earlier posting that people using dogs felt that they "moved
>>> more smoothly." Personally, I want to hit things with my cane. That is how
>>> I
>>> know that those things are there.
>>> 
>>> 4. I work at an office for nine hours per day, five days per week. I am
>>> not
>>> comfortable having a dog sit below my desk for that amount of time. I
>>> recognize that this is my own perspective. I grew up on a farm with dogs
>>> that ran around and played all day long. It would be a personal challenge
>>> to
>>> ask a dog to sit by my side for that amount of time.
>>> 
>>> 5. I do not feel that a dog guide fits with my personal philosophy of
>>> blindness. I preface this with the fact that I have friends who use dog
>>> guides and I do not condemn anyone for using a dog guide, but the
>>> fundamental concept of my personal philosophy of blindness is that eye
>>> sight
>>> is not necessary to navigate this world. If I were to use a dog, I would
>>> be
>>> using the eye-sight of a dog. With all the misconceptions of blindness
>>> that
>>> already exist; I do not want to convey to the public that eye sight, even
>>> if
>>> from a dog, is necessary to travel independently.
>>> 
>>> I thank you all for reading along this far. These are the five reasons I
>>> would not get a dog. I do not expect the reasons to be adopted by other
>>> blind people. I do not feel that these five reasons are absolute truths.
>>> These reasons are based on my opinion and are subject to change. If any of
>>> these reasons strike a cord with dog users on the post, I ask everyone to
>>> respect my opinion. I will do my best to respect yours.
>>> 
>>> Respectfully yours,
>>> 
>>> Darrel Kirby
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brileyp%40gmail.com
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Thu Nov 25 08:20:29 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 03:20:29 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Some Advice on Using Readers
In-Reply-To: <COL118-W427B5C5D45DAFABF54432EBA3E0@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.19.1290448806.6469.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>,
	<003d01cb8b40$fe48c1e0$fada45a0$@com>,
	<4FE44BF14AC34BC5A5D2795F09349094@Ashley>
	<COL118-W427B5C5D45DAFABF54432EBA3E0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <C5DF51D0-F55B-4E27-A9B1-B05B8AB7AA36@gmail.com>

I think you shouldn't bother too much with the DSS office. Just speak to the professor or someone in the math department to see if they understand your point. If they do, it would be easier for you to do what you want.
Also, I would personally avoid using readers for a math class. Again this is my personal opinion, but this system really doesn't work for me. I don't know what the situation is, but if I could I would really try to do things by myself, without depending on a reader.

IC
On Nov 23, 2010, at 5:12 PM, Elizabeth wrote:

> 
> Hello List,
> 
> I am wondering if someone might be able to help me out with a particular situation while using a reader. I am signed up to take a math class next semester, and I would like to be able to use the same reader when taking my tests in class as well as the homework assignments outside of class. 
> 
> However, according to the guidelines of my college disability office, this is not something I am permitted to do. I can only use the readers from the disability office for in class activities as they consider the use of a reader outside of class to be a tutor and not a reader. However, at the same time I cannot use my own reader when taking a test because somehow it compromises the integrity of the test. 
> 
> Since math is not my best subject, I would like to be able to use the same reader for testing accommodations and homework assignments. Does anyone know how I might be able to accomplish this goal, or am I basically stuck with having to use two different readers for this class? I have already spoken with the disabilities office about this, and it appears as though they are not willing to budge on this issue. Does anyone else have any ideas on what I might be able to do?
> 
> Thanks,
> Elizabeth
>  		 	   		  
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From ignasicambra at gmail.com  Thu Nov 25 08:24:15 2010
From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 03:24:15 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinpCc3FYzx+XZT_9OgrEngXvFN40OOO-5Cb+hEX@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A94AB6EA-F73A-46EC-B54F-535C376DF5CD@mac.com>
	<A092B236-95EC-4FEC-BE13-07B1E33C6069@gmail.com>
	<886C99BF17B14EB5912E1962D29A12AA@PC185582706413>
	<AANLkTi=fpyB9f7FPdaup6VT_RAmWSyuLpLX+rtng2VP8@mail.gmail.com>
	<auto-000179333672@mailfront2.g2host.com>
	<61C9ECF5568347B9B2F36CE2612DDBA5@PC185582706413>
	<AANLkTinpCc3FYzx+XZT_9OgrEngXvFN40OOO-5Cb+hEX@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0E15A69A-CCFE-4002-8901-80D839E38915@gmail.com>

The only places I don't take my dog to are bars and nightclubs. At least right now I can't think of any others. I think most of the time it's really a matter of preference, because properly trained guide dogs are used to being in tight spaces and know how to deal with it. Of course I guess in my daily life I don't usually go to places where I feel as though the dog might get hurt or might have a terrible time, but if I did I would probably consider leaving him home enjoying his bed and fresh water.
On Nov 23, 2010, at 4:50 PM, Julie McGinnity wrote:

> This is definitely a personal prefference.  I will only take my dog to
> one movie theater in the area because the rest are too crowded, and
> there is too much nastiness on the floor.  Movie theaters are
> disgusting!
> 
> I would not take her to a concert, but I have taken her to musicals,
> and I go to classical concerts all the time.  They put her right to
> sleep.  Again, just a personal prefference.  I probably wouldn't take
> my dog to a TSO concert.  Good call.  Way too loud.  Lol!
> 
> These are the kinds of decisions you have to make when you have a dog.
> Sometimes you realize after the fact that you probably shouldn't
> taken your dog to a certain place because it just didn't work.  That
> may happen.  As a first time guide dog handler, there are going to be
> times like that, but NAGDU has a great list serve.  You can always ask
> them, and the schools are always willing to help out as well.
> 
> I personally have not had many access problems.  I also would not want
> that to stop you from getting a dog.  It is definitely something to
> consider though.
> 
> On 11/23/10, autTeal Bloodwortho <tealbloodworth at gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is so true especially in certain places where people take their pets
>> into stores and say they are working animals. Also i think somebody was
>> talking about concerts. Personally i would not take my guide dog to a
>> concert, movie theatre, or even a club/bar. David does make a very good
>> point though because even though they are welcome to anywhere the general
>> public can go some places will give you a hard time and may end up in
>> something rediculous. Plus i think when going to a hospital or somewhere it
>> isn't appropriate to take mine because he does still get excited by certain
>> family members.
>> 
>>        -Teal
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 23, 2010 1:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
>> 
>> 
>>> Not to be argumentative, but I can travel as rapidly as most any dog user.
>>> 
>>> Whether a dog, or a cane, there is a continuum of abilities.
>>> 
>>> To me it is mostly a personal preference to use a cane.  One thing, about
>>> using a dog, which hasn't been said, I think, is that there are people out
>>> 
>>> there who are against a dog, and will try and deny you entrance to a
>>> restaurant, taxi, or other public accommodation.  While you have the law
>>> on your side, you also need to be prepared to take on this prejudice -- in
>>> 
>>> addition to all the stuff we get as blind people going through life.
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>> 
>>> At 10:57 AM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
>>>> Hi.
>>>> 
>>>> I agree with everything that was said.  I too, find that I travel much
>>>> faster with a dog.  It is, however, a huge responsibility.  I got my
>>>> dog in high school, and I discovered that it was a big responsibility
>>>> then.  I was ready for it though.
>>>> 
>>>> The best thing that I find about having a dog is the bond you have
>>>> with that dog.  My dog and I are best friends.  We are bonded for
>>>> life.  That is what I love most.  She helps me out, and I take care of
>>>> her.  I love it.
>>>> 
>>>> I want to add also that even though you can have your dog find rooms
>>>> for you, you need to know where you are going.  You need to know if
>>>> your dog has taken you to the right room.  A lot of the mobility
>>>> skills that you needed with a cane cannot be forgotten.  I still use a
>>>> lot of the things I learned in mobility training everyday.  Sometimes
>>>> if your dog has an attitude, she will try and take you where she
>>>> thinks you want to go instead of the real place.  Lol!  This doesn't
>>>> happen oftin, and it's easy to correct, but it is something you have
>>>> to pay attention to.
>>>> 
>>>> Good luck George!  If you want to talk about having a guide dog in
>>>> high school(I believe you are in high school), you can email me off
>>>> list.
>>> 
>>>        David Andrews and long white cane Harry, dandrews at visi.com
>>> Follow me on Twitter at http://www.twitter.com/dandrews920
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Julie McG
> Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera
> Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding
> Eyes for the Blind
> 
> "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that
> everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal
> life."
> John 3:16
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com



From rjaquiss at earthlink.net  Thu Nov 25 15:23:16 2010
From: rjaquiss at earthlink.net (Robert Jaquiss)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:23:16 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Possible Scholarship opportunity
Message-ID: <4AF5CCDF839D432789362A7BD8207A4A@D3DTZP41>

RFP Alerts: Philanthropy News DigestHello List:

     I saw the following and thought I would pass it on. Happy Thanksgiving.

Regards,

Robert Jaquiss

----- Original Message ----- 
From: PND RFP Alerts 
To: Rjaquiss at earthlink.net 
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 4:26 AM
Subject: Today's RFPs from Philanthropy News Digest


              
            November 25, 2010

            The following requests for proposals have been posted to Philanthropy News Digest: 


            Horace Mann Offers College Course Scholarships for K-12 Educators
            A total of $30,000 for tuition, fees, and other educational expenses will be awarded to U.S. public and private school K-12 educators taking college courses; residents of Kentucky, Mississippi, New Jersey, New York, and Hawaii are not eligible to apply... 
            Deadline: March 1, 2011 
            Posted: November 25, 2010



--------------------------------------------------------------------

            Apply for a free Xerox Color Printer today! Join the thousands of companies that print in brilliant color every day with the Xerox FreeColorPrinters program. Xerox is offering organizations like yours the opportunity to receive a Professional-quality, high-speed, networked color printer at no cost. Click here to apply!






            You received this e-mail because you subscribed to PND RFP Alerts with the username "rjaquiss." To change the subjects of your alerts or to unsubscribe, click here.


            Foundation Center . 79 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10003 . (212) 620-4230  
     

From jkenn337 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 26 00:02:59 2010
From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 19:02:59 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] breeze
Message-ID: <4CEEF933.20309@gmail.com>

Hi
sorry if this got posted twice...

Thanks to someone I am getting a brand new trekker breeze very soon. So 
tell me do any of you guys use the trekker breeze? I visited a friend 
and he let me try his and I'm very impressed with it. I'll also be 
getting a kapten gps for christmas this year. I'm excited about both of 
them. Before I was just using loadstone on an old symbian phone. But 
loadstone is not a talking map, it is just a big collection of labeled 
points, not a talking map like trekker and sendero, and ovi maps. I 
wanted something better and now I'm getting trekker breeze and kapten 
gps from maxiaids so give me your opinions on trekker breeze.

Josh


From freethaught at gmail.com  Fri Nov 26 01:23:15 2010
From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 20:23:15 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com>
References: <mailman.15.1290535204.10362.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com>
Message-ID: <6EBFE3C4-E32B-4021-812E-A5696B67376E@gmail.com>

Hello Seah,

 Cane travelers can travel plenty fast, but I really never had a dog stab me in the middle when its paws got stuck in a side walk crack.

Antonio Guimaraes






On Nov 23, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Sean Whalen wrote:

> I agree with the vast majority of what has been said on this topic, and
> completely agree that each has its benefits and drawbacks.
> 
> One thing I would like to point out, however, is that one can walk plenty
> fast with a cane. This is especially true when you are walking to a
> destination which you have found previously. And, honestly, many of the
> places we all go are places we go on more than one occasion. A dog is
> definitely quicker when you are not sure of the route you are taking or what
> kinds of cues you are looking for, but once you know where you are going,
> the cane can allow you to walk as quickly as anybody else. I will grant that
> travel with a dog can appear more graceful, because you are able to navigate
> obstacles without contacting them with a cane, but I disagree with the
> thought that cane travel is necessarily slower. I can walk around familiar
> parts of my city as quickly as anybody I know, dog user or sighted
> individual.
> 
> This said, dogs are certainly faster at navigating through crowds or
> cluttered areas, but, at least for me, the vast majority of my walking is
> done down a sidewalk or the side of a road, where, as I say, a cane user can
> walk as fast as anybody. And, the time I might give up in travel, I make up
> for by not having to care for an animal, so there are two sides to the
> efficiency argument as well.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Sean
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Fri Nov 26 02:36:04 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:36:04 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
References: <mailman.15.1290535204.10362.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org><003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com>
	<6EBFE3C4-E32B-4021-812E-A5696B67376E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1C4B1B61EC62446BB18E31F6F8259F9A@stanford.edu>

Lol, and what about dropping it down the elevator shaft or hitting the heels 
of the person in front of you?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." <freethaught at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


> Hello Seah,
>
> Cane travelers can travel plenty fast, but I really never had a dog stab 
> me in the middle when its paws got stuck in a side walk crack.
>
> Antonio Guimaraes
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Nov 23, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Sean Whalen wrote:
>
>> I agree with the vast majority of what has been said on this topic, and
>> completely agree that each has its benefits and drawbacks.
>>
>> One thing I would like to point out, however, is that one can walk plenty
>> fast with a cane. This is especially true when you are walking to a
>> destination which you have found previously. And, honestly, many of the
>> places we all go are places we go on more than one occasion. A dog is
>> definitely quicker when you are not sure of the route you are taking or 
>> what
>> kinds of cues you are looking for, but once you know where you are going,
>> the cane can allow you to walk as quickly as anybody else. I will grant 
>> that
>> travel with a dog can appear more graceful, because you are able to 
>> navigate
>> obstacles without contacting them with a cane, but I disagree with the
>> thought that cane travel is necessarily slower. I can walk around 
>> familiar
>> parts of my city as quickly as anybody I know, dog user or sighted
>> individual.
>>
>> This said, dogs are certainly faster at navigating through crowds or
>> cluttered areas, but, at least for me, the vast majority of my walking is
>> done down a sidewalk or the side of a road, where, as I say, a cane user 
>> can
>> walk as fast as anybody. And, the time I might give up in travel, I make 
>> up
>> for by not having to care for an animal, so there are two sides to the
>> efficiency argument as well.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Sean
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From freethaught at gmail.com  Fri Nov 26 02:48:06 2010
From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.)
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 21:48:06 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Looking for Some Advice on Using Readers
In-Reply-To: <auto-000183033360@mailfront1.g2host.com>
References: <mailman.19.1290448806.6469.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<003d01cb8b40$fe48c1e0$fada45a0$@com>
	<4FE44BF14AC34BC5A5D2795F09349094@Ashley>
	<COL118-W427B5C5D45DAFABF54432EBA3E0@phx.gbl>
	<auto-000183033360@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <5636285C-E079-4954-BB2A-AF43A88C7C8B@gmail.com>

Hello Dave and all,

I believe some policies at disabled students services offices to be quite misguided, backward, and counter-productive. I would argue however that a student-hired  reader has seen and become familiar with the test subject matter by virtue of reading and describing all text book material.




This affinity creates a good study environment. 

Students who need readers typically need them for math, science, and other symbol-rich content like logic. Readers must be able to give all written information to the student, and take down dictation from the student back onto paper. Test proctoring readers must be educated in the subject the test addresses.  Test-taking should be done by someone able to read, describe, dictate, analyze, yes I said analyze, understand the form and language of the field, take dictation from student, clarify and aid student to put hers or his answers in coherent written form. You can see where reading alone is not enough, but communicating the written text would be. After all, the reader has become familiar with the content by reading and describing all test material. Sound familiar?

Student-hired, student-trained, student-centered readers may or may not provide extra help, aka cheating tips during the test-taking process. I can understand why the DSS would not accept a reader with so much student training in reading, and on the course content to proctor the exams.

The alternative in my opinion is to have a reader, the DSS-hired reader be prescreened by the student, and trained by the same to ensure the reader can read the content, convey the written mathematical or what have you information to the student. The reader must be able to communicate with, and receive directions from the student. She or he must be very good at dealing with graphs, charts, and all expressions the student is expected to know.

If you think I am saying the reader must be familiar with the course content, you are right. You can't take a math-iliterate reader to and put her to proctor a calculus exam. You can use an engineering student for a geometry course because the reader will have transferrable 
math and graphics skills.

Schools can find suitable students by involving students in the hiring process, conducting reader training with the student, and so on.

School-hired readers have an obligation to the school to make testing accessible to the student, and if done right, I believe everybody wins.

Sincerely,

Antonio Guimaraes









On Nov 24, 2010, at 11:38 PM, David Andrews wrote:

> I am not an expert in these things, I don't know to what extent your DSS office can dictate to you what happens in class.  One thing you said jumped out at me though, that was that they consider any home reader to be a tutor.  That is the most stupid thing I have ever heard.  In the old days human readers were all we had, and they can still be a valuable tool despite computers and e-texts etc.  These people are controlling and trying to run your life, not assist you in getting an education.
> 
> Dave
> 
> At 04:12 PM 11/23/2010, you wrote:
> 
>> Hello List,
>> 
>> I am wondering if someone might be able to help me out with a particular situation while using a reader. I am signed up to take a math class next semester, and I would like to be able to use the same reader when taking my tests in class as well as the homework assignments outside of class.
>> 
>> However, according to the guidelines of my college disability office, this is not something I am permitted to do. I can only use the readers from the disability office for in class activities as they consider the use of a reader outside of class to be a tutor and not a reader. However, at the same time I cannot use my own reader when taking a test because somehow it compromises the integrity of the test.
>> 
>> Since math is not my best subject, I would like to be able to use the same reader for testing accommodations and homework assignments. Does anyone know how I might be able to accomplish this goal, or am I basically stuck with having to use two different readers for this class? I have already spoken with the disabilities office about this, and it appears as though they are not willing to budge on this issue. Does anyone else have any ideas on what I might be able to do?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Elizabeth
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com



From treyman19 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 26 07:22:22 2010
From: treyman19 at gmail.com (Trey Bradley)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 01:22:22 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] Maps for the trecker breeze
Message-ID: <AANLkTimgLtEgMK_05Oy1Ss7RNbcSH2e=P+VM2Rsx+o5r@mail.gmail.com>

Hi I was wondering if there is anyone that can help me get maps for my
Trecker Breeze?  Please help me out.  you can contact me at;

treyman19 at gmail.com

-- 
Roosevelt Bradley


From steve.jacobson at visi.com  Fri Nov 26 16:58:20 2010
From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 10:58:20 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <1C4B1B61EC62446BB18E31F6F8259F9A@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <auto-000179712416@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Nicole and others,

I am a cane user, but it does not particularly bother me to hear of ways the cane can be a pain.  There are definitely times when it is, and all of us who use 
canes have to try to think about how our canes can affect others.  However, I've been in a number of discussions like this over the past fifteen years or 
so, and as soon as we start talking about the negatives of either, someone will feel the need to point out the negatives of the other.  It doesn't take long 
once we reach that point before someone gets mad.  I am not the moderator and am here  because I occasionally back up Dave Andrews with technical 
problems, but I don't want to see discussion degenerate as it has always done in the past when we go down this road, and believe me, it always does.  
<smile>  

Best regards,

Steve Jacobson

On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 18:36:04 -0800, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote:

>Lol, and what about dropping it down the elevator shaft or hitting the heels 
>of the person in front of you?

>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." <freethaught at gmail.com>
>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
><nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 5:23 PM
>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane


>> Hello Seah,
>>
>> Cane travelers can travel plenty fast, but I really never had a dog stab 
>> me in the middle when its paws got stuck in a side walk crack.
>>
>> Antonio Guimaraes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Sean Whalen wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with the vast majority of what has been said on this topic, and
>>> completely agree that each has its benefits and drawbacks.
>>>
>>> One thing I would like to point out, however, is that one can walk plenty
>>> fast with a cane. This is especially true when you are walking to a
>>> destination which you have found previously. And, honestly, many of the
>>> places we all go are places we go on more than one occasion. A dog is
>>> definitely quicker when you are not sure of the route you are taking or 
>>> what
>>> kinds of cues you are looking for, but once you know where you are going,
>>> the cane can allow you to walk as quickly as anybody else. I will grant 
>>> that
>>> travel with a dog can appear more graceful, because you are able to 
>>> navigate
>>> obstacles without contacting them with a cane, but I disagree with the
>>> thought that cane travel is necessarily slower. I can walk around 
>>> familiar
>>> parts of my city as quickly as anybody I know, dog user or sighted
>>> individual.
>>>
>>> This said, dogs are certainly faster at navigating through crowds or
>>> cluttered areas, but, at least for me, the vast majority of my walking is
>>> done down a sidewalk or the side of a road, where, as I say, a cane user 
>>> can
>>> walk as fast as anybody. And, the time I might give up in travel, I make 
>>> up
>>> for by not having to care for an animal, so there are two sides to the
>>> efficiency argument as well.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 


>_______________________________________________
>nabs-l mailing list
>nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com






From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Fri Nov 26 17:01:15 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 09:01:15 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <1C4B1B61EC62446BB18E31F6F8259F9A@stanford.edu>
References: <mailman.15.1290535204.10362.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>
	<003c01cb8b40$58c75f60$0a561e20$@com>
	<6EBFE3C4-E32B-4021-812E-A5696B67376E@gmail.com>
	<1C4B1B61EC62446BB18E31F6F8259F9A@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikxOgfOQaBDOgdFo8OpiRqkxdC5_-1sqYXeytMk@mail.gmail.com>

I ( while  using a long white cane) have  nevr really had a problem
with being stabbed    in the mid-section.  ButI think that  there is
no   need to defend the use of dog or cane. If you are comfortable
with what you utilize and can maintain your level of  independence,  I
think that's the most important things.


On 11/25/10, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:
> Lol, and what about dropping it down the elevator shaft or hitting the heels
> of the person in front of you?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." <freethaught at gmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 5:23 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
>
>
>> Hello Seah,
>>
>> Cane travelers can travel plenty fast, but I really never had a dog stab
>> me in the middle when its paws got stuck in a side walk crack.
>>
>> Antonio Guimaraes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Nov 23, 2010, at 1:57 PM, Sean Whalen wrote:
>>
>>> I agree with the vast majority of what has been said on this topic, and
>>> completely agree that each has its benefits and drawbacks.
>>>
>>> One thing I would like to point out, however, is that one can walk plenty
>>> fast with a cane. This is especially true when you are walking to a
>>> destination which you have found previously. And, honestly, many of the
>>> places we all go are places we go on more than one occasion. A dog is
>>> definitely quicker when you are not sure of the route you are taking or
>>> what
>>> kinds of cues you are looking for, but once you know where you are going,
>>> the cane can allow you to walk as quickly as anybody else. I will grant
>>> that
>>> travel with a dog can appear more graceful, because you are able to
>>> navigate
>>> obstacles without contacting them with a cane, but I disagree with the
>>> thought that cane travel is necessarily slower. I can walk around
>>> familiar
>>> parts of my city as quickly as anybody I know, dog user or sighted
>>> individual.
>>>
>>> This said, dogs are certainly faster at navigating through crowds or
>>> cluttered areas, but, at least for me, the vast majority of my walking is
>>> done down a sidewalk or the side of a road, where, as I say, a cane user
>>> can
>>> walk as fast as anybody. And, the time I might give up in travel, I make
>>> up
>>> for by not having to care for an animal, so there are two sides to the
>>> efficiency argument as well.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From dandrews at visi.com  Fri Nov 26 18:06:46 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 12:06:46 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] dog v. cane
In-Reply-To: <auto-000179712416@mailfront2.g2host.com>
References: <1C4B1B61EC62446BB18E31F6F8259F9A@stanford.edu>
	<auto-000179712416@mailfront2.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000179720285@mailfront2.g2host.com>

Steve makes a good point, and we all need to be careful.  Even the 
subject line risks confrontation as it is Dog Versus Cane.  It 
shouldn't be one against the other, and it isn't a contest or battle, 
and there is no one right or wrong answer for all of us.

Dave

At 10:58 AM 11/26/2010, you wrote:
>Nicole and others,
>
>I am a cane user, but it does not particularly bother me to hear of 
>ways the cane can be a pain.  There are definitely times when it is, 
>and all of us who use
>canes have to try to think about how our canes can affect 
>others.  However, I've been in a number of discussions like this 
>over the past fifteen years or
>so, and as soon as we start talking about the negatives of either, 
>someone will feel the need to point out the negatives of the 
>other.  It doesn't take long
>once we reach that point before someone gets mad.  I am not the 
>moderator and am here  because I occasionally back up Dave Andrews 
>with technical
>problems, but I don't want to see discussion degenerate as it has 
>always done in the past when we go down this road, and believe me, 
>it always does.
><smile>
>
>Best regards,
>
>Steve Jacobson



From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com  Fri Nov 26 18:46:02 2010
From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (NabslinkAudioWebMaster)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:46:02 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
Message-ID: <mailman.6.1772982260.2863824.nabs-l_nfbnet.org@nfbnet.org>


Greetings!
This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download.

Title: The Nabs Conference Call For November 2010
Description: Which makes for a better guide? A cane or a guide dog?
While many find dogs give them a sense of independence, and when not working, these dogs  can be as playful and cute as a young puppy, there's a reason some insist on using a cane and why the major training centers stress cane travel so much. Hear from a cane and a dog user on this interesting call, hear the pros and cons of using a cane and a dog, and decide what you think would work best and why.


You can download the show directly at:
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/November2010Call.mp3

Alternatively you can visit the archive page at:
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations
to hear some of the other calls we've done.
Best regards,
David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee
http://www.nabslinkaudio.org
http://www.nabslink.org


From blind.biker94 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 27 01:56:06 2010
From: blind.biker94 at gmail.com (Zachary Dreicer)
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 2010 18:56:06 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] in answer to some earlier land phone questions...
Message-ID: <AANLkTimCsndQp6qE-kaJhva6BNntbWCR8_vd5vDEShBd@mail.gmail.com>

at
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3726993/panasonic%20kxtg6444.wav
I have a podcast on the Panasonic KX-TG6444 phone, that we use at our house.

Enjoy!


From freethaught at gmail.com  Mon Nov 29 01:20:12 2010
From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 20:20:12 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
In-Reply-To: <4cf000cc.2ad6e70a.4d09.16f3SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
References: <4cf000cc.2ad6e70a.4d09.16f3SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <49A27F7D-1215-47AE-B2DF-C1D3A4D17957@gmail.com>

Testing, 

Strange that I haven't received a message from this list in over 2 days.
Antonio Guimaraes


On Nov 26, 2010, at 1:46 PM, NabslinkAudioWebMaster wrote:

> 
> Greetings!
> This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download.
> 
> Title: The Nabs Conference Call For November 2010
> Description: Which makes for a better guide? A cane or a guide dog?
> While many find dogs give them a sense of independence, and when not working, these dogs  can be as playful and cute as a young puppy, there's a reason some insist on using a cane and why the major training centers stress cane travel so much. Hear from a cane and a dog user on this interesting call, hear the pros and cons of using a cane and a dog, and decide what you think would work best and why.
> 
> 
> You can download the show directly at:
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/November2010Call.mp3
> 
> Alternatively you can visit the archive page at:
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations
> to hear some of the other calls we've done.
> Best regards,
> David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org
> http://www.nabslink.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Mon Nov 29 01:43:06 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 17:43:06 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] iPhone
Message-ID: <9EC29F69DBA947F683FAE02B713A913A@stanford.edu>

If anyone has an iPhone, please email me off list.

Nicole

From dandrews at visi.com  Mon Nov 29 01:49:55 2010
From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:49:55 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
In-Reply-To: <49A27F7D-1215-47AE-B2DF-C1D3A4D17957@gmail.com>
References: <4cf000cc.2ad6e70a.4d09.16f3SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
	<49A27F7D-1215-47AE-B2DF-C1D3A4D17957@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <auto-000183307243@mailfront1.g2host.com>

Everybody is to busy eating turkey and dressing.

Dave

At 07:20 PM 11/28/2010, you wrote:
>Testing,
>
>Strange that I haven't received a message from this list in over 2 days.
>Antonio Guimaraes



From ntorcolini at wavecable.com  Mon Nov 29 03:26:09 2010
From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:26:09 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
References: <4cf000cc.2ad6e70a.4d09.16f3SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com><49A27F7D-1215-47AE-B2DF-C1D3A4D17957@gmail.com>
	<auto-000183307243@mailfront1.g2host.com>
Message-ID: <BC5414301DBB44E8BA8263B3786D2FD2@stanford.edu>

Lol.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Andrews" <dandrews at visi.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 5:49 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download


> Everybody is to busy eating turkey and dressing.
>
> Dave
>
> At 07:20 PM 11/28/2010, you wrote:
>>Testing,
>>
>>Strange that I haven't received a message from this list in over 2 days.
>>Antonio Guimaraes
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com 



From bookwormahb at earthlink.net  Mon Nov 29 04:27:31 2010
From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (Ashley  Bramlett)
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 23:27:31 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
References: <4cf000cc.2ad6e70a.4d09.16f3SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
	<49A27F7D-1215-47AE-B2DF-C1D3A4D17957@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6C99CFAA517C47A59B5B9973201A2A75@Ashley>

Antonio, got it. Its just quiet with the holiday.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." <freethaught at gmail.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download


> Testing,
>
> Strange that I haven't received a message from this list in over 2 days.
> Antonio Guimaraes
>
>
> On Nov 26, 2010, at 1:46 PM, NabslinkAudioWebMaster wrote:
>
>>
>> Greetings!
>> This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest 
>> conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download.
>>
>> Title: The Nabs Conference Call For November 2010
>> Description: Which makes for a better guide? A cane or a guide dog?
>> While many find dogs give them a sense of independence, and when not 
>> working, these dogs  can be as playful and cute as a young puppy, there's 
>> a reason some insist on using a cane and why the major training centers 
>> stress cane travel so much. Hear from a cane and a dog user on this 
>> interesting call, hear the pros and cons of using a cane and a dog, and 
>> decide what you think would work best and why.
>>
>>
>> You can download the show directly at:
>> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/November2010Call.mp3
>>
>> Alternatively you can visit the archive page at:
>> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations
>> to hear some of the other calls we've done.
>> Best regards,
>> David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee
>> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org
>> http://www.nabslink.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for 
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net
> 



From agrima at nbp.org  Mon Nov 29 14:29:55 2010
From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 09:29:55 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Cyber-Monday at NBP
Message-ID: <153F3DC908BF41FF907C6C7AF9699C46@nbp2.local>

Celebrate cyber-Monday with a new braille pendant from Kelly Fehr - and
don't miss the terrific deals in our Holiday Sale!

A one-of-a-kind gift for teachers, students, mothers, and colleagues,
this memorable pendant was designed by jeweler Kelly Fehr especially for
the holiday season. Fashioned in dark bronze, the 1.25" x .25" pendant
has a small evergreen tree at the base and the word "joy" in braille.
Strung on an 18-inch waxed cotton cord with a lobster clasp. 
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/PENDANT-JOY.html

Also see Kelly's popular Braille "Love" Pendant:
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/PENDANT-LOVE.html

And don't forget to stock up and SAVE on print/braille picture books
(and see our big selection of gift ideas) with NBP's annual Holiday
Sale: 
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/holidaysale.html


******
To order any books, send payment to:
NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302
Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext
20. Or order any of our books online at 
http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html 




From davidschool97 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 29 22:25:12 2010
From: davidschool97 at gmail.com (David Thomas)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 16:25:12 -0600
Subject: [nabs-l] iPhone
In-Reply-To: <9EC29F69DBA947F683FAE02B713A913A@stanford.edu>
References: <9EC29F69DBA947F683FAE02B713A913A@stanford.edu>
Message-ID: <1A97A49C-F83F-4897-A66A-19448D3FA697@gmail.com>

I do what's up

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 28, 2010, at 7:43 PM, "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" <ntorcolini at wavecable.com> wrote:

> If anyone has an iPhone, please email me off list.
> 
> Nicole
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/davidschool97%40gmail.com


From nabs.president at gmail.com  Tue Nov 30 00:19:07 2010
From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman)
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 17:19:07 -0700
Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Bulletin Additions
Message-ID: <AANLkTinUSTx6_oqz7F32uk1CxHb1nk5rPpvrbmwZ8tnN@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Do you have suggested additions for the next bulletin? If so, please
send them to me at
nabs.president at gmail.com
Thanks!
Arielle

-- 
Arielle Silverman
President, National Association of Blind Students
Phone:  602-502-2255
Email:
nabs.president at gmail.com
Website:
www.nabslink.org


From dsmithnfb at gmail.com  Tue Nov 30 15:00:05 2010
From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 07:00:05 -0800
Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download
In-Reply-To: <4cf000a0.42d7e70a.4b60.fffffe76SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
References: <4cf000a0.42d7e70a.4b60.fffffe76SMTPIN_ADDED@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinyjYp47+J3vjLddmwnzmMmfT5ZzPvtqt=CVzcu@mail.gmail.com>

Not gonna lie- was so caught up in the family, friends, food and
Football that I wasn't  thinking too much about a listserve of any
kind, form or fashon, I'm sure many of you can forgive me for
contributing to the nabs-l  emptiness!  (at least I hope so *sniffle*)
 have a great day, and I hope all  of you had an amazing thanksgiving!
  Darian

On 11/26/10, NabslinkAudioWebMaster <djdrocks4ever at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Greetings!
> This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference
> call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download.
>
> Title: The Nabs Conference Call For November 2010
> Description: Which makes for a better guide? A cane or a guide dog?
> While many find dogs give them a sense of independence, and when not
> working, these dogs  can be as playful and cute as a young puppy, there's a
> reason some insist on using a cane and why the major training centers stress
> cane travel so much. Hear from a cane and a dog user on this interesting
> call, hear the pros and cons of using a cane and a dog, and decide what you
> think would work best and why.
>
>
> You can download the show directly at:
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/November2010Call.mp3
>
> Alternatively you can visit the archive page at:
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations
> to hear some of the other calls we've done.
> Best regards,
> David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee
> http://www.nabslinkaudio.org
> http://www.nabslink.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> nabs-l mailing list
> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
> nabs-l:
> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com
>


-- 
Darian Smith
Skype: The_Blind_Truth
Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace


“We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are
spiritual beings having a human experience.” - Teilhard de Chardin


From jsorozco at gmail.com  Tue Nov 30 21:33:29 2010
From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco)
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 2010 16:33:29 -0500
Subject: [nabs-l] Telling Your Story: An Introduction
Message-ID: <66AC92249B244780B230E2E62FE0E8AA@Rufus>

Attention NFB Leaders:

If you are committed to the long-term strength of your chapter, affiliate or
division, this message is for you.  On January 10 at 8:30 PM Eastern,
AlphaComm Strategies is hosting a telephone workshop on how to tell your
story to the community at large.  This workshop is a part of our first
special project, Operation Checkmate.

For our purposes, "telling your story" goes beyond repeating the NFB's
mission statement.  A good narrative unites your membership, attracts new
recruits, solidifies your partnerships, and diversifies your funding
prospects.  Learn how to:

* take stock of your existing strengths and weaknesses;
* evaluate what you can offer and how it stacks up to competing
organizations;
* examine the community in which you operate;
* energize your core base of workers;
* use their talents to cultivate strong talking points; and
* use this communication to generate compelling events, grant proposals and
public awareness campaigns.

Your registration is required to generate a roster of participants for the
workshop.  The most effective presentations actively engage individual
audience members, and you should expect to be randomly called upon to help
explore real world, concrete examples.  Of the people who register, one
organization will be chosen with permission to serve as a case study for the
discussion.  We will not shine a spotlight on the organization.  Rather, we
will use it as a common reference point on which to leverage some of our
analysis.  After the call, confirmed attendees will receive an informative
packet of resources with more information on how to jumpstart some of the
ideas discussed at the meeting.

Note:  This is not an informal social call.  Participants should come
prepared to discuss the serious business of ensuring the lasting momentum of
your specific group and the vitality of the NFB as a whole.  Only the most
dedicated members are welcomed, and to that end, we are intentionally not
offering a future recording of the conversation.  Come prepared to take
copious notes.  If you cannot attend yourself, please feel free to ask
someone to register and participate on your chapter, affiliate or division's
behalf using the link below.

It's not about standing out from the competition.  It's about eliminating
it.  It's not about hoping for a streak of success.  It's about creating it,
and if you are fully committed to transforming your organization from good
to great, your colleagues will await your presence at a call you absolutely
cannot miss.  Don't let the introductory nature of this call fool you.  For
us, it is the beginning of a longer effort to let people know that the
various groups of the NFB have something to offer, and they will be heard!

Yours in service,

Joe Orozco, Managing Director
AlphaComm Strategies

Learn about Operation Checkmate and register here:

www.alphacommstrategies.com/checkmate/