[nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College SportingEvents

[Ashley Bramlett]

Kimberly,
I totally agree.  In a crowd that is loud and lots of space like this you 
need assistance.  There is nothing wrong with that.  Wandering around lost 
when your goal is to get into a game you paid for with a ticket is not 
independence and defeats the purpose of your trip.  There is nothing wrong 
with asking for directions from a trusted official like the police or ticket 
agents or ushers.  There is nothing wrong with having them walk with you and 
show you the appropriate seat.
Walking aimlessly amongst roudy people in a parking lot does not show your 
independence.  It shows your willing to be risky.  Independence is going 
where you want when you want without much inconvenience to yourself or 
others.  Because officials assist anyone and do crowd control at such major 
events with thousands of people its not an inconvenience to them to help out 
anyone whether disabled or not.
Jedi may disagree but there is a difference between independence and 
rebellious independence.
Part of independence in living in this society is knowing when to ask for 
assistance.  Do we grow our own food to be independent?  No we ask for help 
to grocery shop at the store.  We are all interdependent in a post 
industrialized society.
Ashley
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kimberly thurman" <kimthurman at insightbb.com>
To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" 
<nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 11:52 AM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Independent Travel At Crowded Major College 
SportingEvents


> Jedi:
>
> Maybe I did not make the point I wished to.  It's not really the steps or 
> the drunks that would be the problem.  The problem is tha the football 
> stadium is massive.  The parking lot is even more massive.  I would 
> venture to say that we walked a couple of miles between getting in to our 
> seats and getting out to the parking lot.
>
> Unless Kerry has ingrained knowledge of the stadium and its parking lots, 
> or a way to be dropped off at the stadium entrance, she will probably 
> spend her birthday wandering a beer can riddled parking lot.
>
> Of course, some sweet soul will probably rescue her before that hapens, 
> but is this true independence?  It is just being rescued from a not very 
> well thought out plan.
>
> If she is dropped off at the stadium entrance, she will definitely need 
> the assistance of others to find her seat, and there's nothing wrong with 
> that.  I just do not want her to have a false sense of security that she 
> will be able to wander around until she locates her own seat.  Football 
> games are long, but not long enough for a totally blind person to find 1 
> seat in 60,000 without some sighted assistance.
>
> Kerry, if you want to go to the football game, which you obviously do, 
> find a way to be dropped at the stadium entrance.  Ask someone there to 
> assist you to your seat.  You also need to be picked up at the stadium 
> entrance after the game is over.  Parking lots are no fun to hnvigate in 
> normal conditions.  I can't imagine navigating those parking lots on the 
> day of a game.
>
> I am speaking from experience from the perspective of a blind person who 
> has been there and done that.  Trust me, those folks get blistered on game 
> day.  They burn couches when they win a game for gosh sakes.  They're 
> rowdy, obnoxious, and aren't looking out for a petite blind girl wandering 
> through a parking lot with no idea where she is or how to get to where she 
> is going.
>
> Kerry, just be careful in whatever you choose to do.  Stay out of the 
> parking lot by yourself at all cost.  It's not safe, and especially after 
> the game, it's really not safe.  No beer is served in the stadium, but 
> nearly everyone has a bottle tucked into their pocket.
>
> Of course, just because I, a person with experience in this exact 
> situation wouldn't do it, doesn't mean you can't do it and won't have a 
> good time.  I just can't picture anyone having a good time wandering 
> around that massive parking lot while everyone else has gone into the 
> game.
>
> Happy birthday in advance, and I hope you have a great birthday weekend.
>
> Jedi, I mean absolutely no disrespect and admire your sense of 
> independence.  I just can't let this young girl go wandering around that 
> place without at first planning her strategy for getting in and out.
> On Nov 11, 2010, at 12:04 AM, Jedi wrote:
>
>> Kimberly,
>>
>> This is with no offense meant, so plese don't take it this way. That 
>> said, I'm sorry if my comments do seem offensive.
>>
>> I do wish you hadn't made the football stadium sound so dangerous. The 
>> truth is that stairs, parking lots, and even drunks are completely 
>> manageable. This is true even for folks new to independence. Kerri, 
>> you're not on an independence high: you're trying to see what you can do 
>> and stretch beyond what you once thought to be your limits. This is 
>> totally normal for folks who are just starting out. While it is true that 
>> you want to be safe and take things slow as you get your feet wet as it 
>> were, understand that you have to brave what you sometimes might think of 
>> as danger in order to get where you want. That doesn't mean abandon 
>> caution, but it does mean that one should not be needlessly afraid. Ask 
>> for help when you need it, but don't be afraid to go it alone when you 
>> want or need to.
>>
>> Respectfully,
>> Jedi
>>
>>
>> Original message:
>>> Hi Kimberly, Jedi and All:
>>
>>> Wow, Kimberly thank you so much!
>>> I have been to our stadium several times and knew the parking lot was
>>> huge, sprawling, and full of drunks. I guess since I was always guided
>>> I forgot about all the steps!
>>> I'm glad to finally find a fellow sports fan who follows a school in
>>> the Big East conference...we play you guys there next week actually on
>>> Nov. 20...I just wrote a story about the game being televised on the
>>> Big East Network.
>>
>>> Thanks Kimberly for giving me a little wake-up call. I guess I'm kind
>>> of on an independence high from the basketball game last week.
>>> Your right that the basketball games are much calmer and a better
>>> atmosphere...they are inside a building and I don't know of anyone who
>>> drinks there...I don't even think they sell beer there.
>>
>>> Thanks so much...I want to be safe but also find and practice my
>>> independence as well.
>>
>>> Here is what I may do.
>>
>>> Let me know what you guys think about this considering what Kimberly 
>>> said.
>>
>>> I have an extra ticket for the football game Saturday. I go to the
>>> game with someone. I go to the basketball game Friday by myself as I
>>> did last week and really try to see if I can practice
>>> independence...try to find my seat by asking for section numbers, and
>>> see if I can get to the concession stand...that sorta thing.
>>
>>> Then I can be somewhat independent on my birthday, I still get to do
>>> all the things I want to, but still be safe.
>>
>>> And Kimberly...thank you so much...you may have just kept me from a
>>> dizasterous and potentially very dangerous and harmful situation!
>>
>>> Hope your stay in Morgantown was a good one; it is a big problem that
>>> there are no blind people around here but I intend to do what I can to
>>> solve it eventually!
>>
>>> Kerri
>>
>>> On 11/9/10, Kimberly thurman <kimthurman at insightbb.com> wrote:
>>>> Kerry and all:
>>
>>>> I usually don't give my opinions on this list often, but I have to jump 
>>>> in
>>>> here.  I live in Louisville, Kentucky, home of the University of 
>>>> Louisville,
>>>> a school in The Big East Conference with your school, West Virginia.  I 
>>>> have
>>>> been to a football game there in Morgantown when the University of
>>>> Louisville played West Virginia.
>>
>>>> I don't want to squash your eagerness to be independent, but  one of 
>>>> these
>>>> football games is not the time to practice it.  I don't know too many
>>>> sighted women who would go to one of these events alone.  The area you 
>>>> would
>>>> be traveling in is massive and noisy.  The stadium is quite dangerous 
>>>> with
>>>> steps and more steps everywhere.  The tailgating parking lots are full 
>>>> of
>>>> drunks and cars.  I have gone with my sighted husband, and he has to be 
>>>> on
>>>> full alert while navigating these places himself.
>>
>>>> The basketball game might be doable if you can get into the building on 
>>>> your
>>>> own.  The atmosphere at those events is not quite as rowdy and the 
>>>> venue is
>>>> not so daunting.  I think you could get directions there from some nice
>>>> people.  Do not be afraid to take help when it is offered.  I will take 
>>>> all
>>>> the help I can get when I walk into the restrooms at these events by 
>>>> myself.
>>>> I carry the cane just so people will know I am blind.  There are 
>>>> usually
>>>> lines, which I don't want to cut and make people angry.  Most of the 
>>>> time
>>>> someone will let me cut the line anyway.  People are usually very nice.
>>>> Just try to be pleasant when you refuse help, so that person will get a
>>>> positive image of blind people.
>>
>>>> Sorry for all the advice, but I just want you to be safe while 
>>>> maintaining
>>>> your independence.  See if you can get someone to go with you to the
>>>> football game.  I think you will enjoy it much better.
>>>> On Nov 8, 2010, at 11:08 PM, Kerri Kosten wrote:
>>
>>>>> Hi Jedi and all:
>>
>>>>> Thanks so much for your answers! For the upcoming basketball game I
>>>>> will definitely be more assertive with the people and tell them
>>>>> exactly what I want...I think I can do the basketball game fine!!
>>>>> Thanks so much!
>>
>>>>> I would absolutely love love to go to the football game with another
>>>>> blind person but there aren't any other blind people around here.
>>>>> That's the problem with that idea...you have no idea how much I'd love
>>>>> to do that...if there were another blind person around here I wouldn't
>>>>> be asking the questions I do on this list lol but unfortunately there
>>>>> isn't.
>>
>>>>> Okay onto the female thing...honestly when I really really sit and
>>>>> think about it...the reason I bring the whole blind female thing up is
>>>>> that I'm scared something bad will happen...a drunken man grabbing
>>>>> me...someone pushing me and knocking me down (I'm really petite),
>>>>> something like that...going with another blind woman would certainaly
>>>>> squash this fear...but there aren't any around here.
>>
>>>>> Since I don't have any other blind people to go with, and your right
>>>>> it would be kind of silly asking a sighted person to let me take
>>>>> charge of the travel...since there are so many drunks at this game
>>>>> would it maybe be best for me to call the ticket office ahead, explain
>>>>> the situation, get to the game super early, and have someone from
>>>>> security or who works at the stadium help me into the game early (so
>>>>> there are no lines), I listen to the game, then maybe could make
>>>>> arrangements to meet someone afterwords somewhere to get home?
>>>>> I know this isn't at all independent travel but with the situation
>>>>> would that be better or should I try to go for the true doing it on my
>>>>> own?
>>
>>>>> Kerri
>>>>> Kerri
>>
>>>>> On 11/8/10, Jedi <loneblindjedi at samobile.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Kerri,
>>
>>>>>> About asking for directions and refusing assistance. You're on the
>>>>>> right track. Just let folks know that you're okay and tell them what
>>>>>> kind of help they can give you if at all. Otherwise, say no thanks 
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> move on. If they insist on helping you, just be polite, yet firm, in
>>>>>> your refusal by stating that you're not interested in receiving 
>>>>>> certain
>>>>>> kinds of help and would prefer other forms of help instead.
>>
>>>>>> As to taking a sighted person along but you being in charge, it is a
>>>>>> little impractical to tell a sighted person to take the back seat
>>>>>> because they don't know how. They will want to help you, so they'll
>>>>>> interfear. Otherwise, they'll just be super anxious and no fun to be
>>>>>> around. So your better bet is to either go it alone or ask a friend 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> go who you know won't get in your way. If you can, I'd recommend
>>>>>> inviting a blind friend to tag along.
>>
>>>>>> You asked about being a female and going to these kind of events. 
>>>>>> I'll
>>>>>> be honest: it's really hard (just as is true with blindness) to stop
>>>>>> thinking of oneself as a helpless and defenseless female at the mercy
>>>>>> of potentially drunken men. You talked about people thinking of you 
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> the poor blind girl. It sounds like you're still struggling with that
>>>>>> in your own mind. If it were me, I'd probably go with someone just to
>>>>>> have someone to talk to and because the buddy system is always a safe
>>>>>> bet no matter your sex or vision status. But if at all possible, go
>>>>>> with another blind woman. That way, you'll know in your heart that 
>>>>>> sex
>>>>>> nor vision has anything to do with anything.
>>
>>>>>> Good luck.
>>
>>>>>> Respectfully,
>>>>>> Jedi
>>
>>>>>> Original message:
>>>>>>> Hi All!
>>
>>>>>>> I have some more travel questions, this time about navigating 
>>>>>>> sporting
>>>>>>> events.
>>
>>>>>>> I am a huge sports fan. My team is the West Virginia University
>>>>>>> Mountaineers, we made it to the Final Four last year in Basketball 
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> are a major Division I school.
>>
>>>>>>> I am trying to do what I want when I want and keep a positive 
>>>>>>> attitude.
>>
>>>>>>> This coming weekend is my birthday. All I really want is to practice
>>>>>>> independent travel and feel the confidence that comes from doing 
>>>>>>> what
>>>>>>> you want when you want independently and knowing you used your cane
>>>>>>> and for the most part did it yourself. There is a basketball game 
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> Friday, and a football game this Saturday.
>>
>>>>>>> First I'll start with the questions about the basketball game, then
>>>>>>> move to football. I attended a basketball game last week and things
>>>>>>> went well for the most part but I do have a few questions.
>>
>>>>>>> First, how do you explain to sighted people that you appreciate 
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> help but you need to explore on your own? At the basketball game
>>>>>>> Friday, I want to try to find my seat on my own...I want to pass 
>>>>>>> each
>>>>>>> section (not go into each section but walk past it) and every once 
>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>> a while randomly ask someone "Excuse me what section is this?" Oh,
>>>>>>> this is section 45...I need section 60...I need to keep going...kind
>>>>>>> of like the way everyone finds their delegations at national
>>>>>>> convention or the way you find your gate for a flight at an airport. 
>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>> need to explore, not be guided! Of course though the sighted people
>>>>>>> just want to guide...how do I let them know their help is 
>>>>>>> appreciated
>>>>>>> but I need to explore on my own and that all I need is some 
>>>>>>> directions
>>>>>>> towards say the ticket window or the concession stand?
>>
>>>>>>> Also, because I haven't had much practice using my cane I don't walk
>>>>>>> as fast as I should. Because of this when I am lost...I look lost.
>>>>>>> Another thing I do is when I am unsure of where to go I tend to 
>>>>>>> doubt
>>>>>>> myself and turn around thinking I am going in the wrong direction 
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> in fact I am usually going the right way! How do you gain more
>>>>>>> confidence when lost? Does it just come with time? When your unsure 
>>>>>>> do
>>>>>>> you just keep going even if you doubt yourself until you find 
>>>>>>> someone
>>>>>>> who can give you directions or tell you if you are going the right
>>>>>>> way?
>>
>>>>>>> On Saturday is a football game. About 60,000 people attend our games
>>>>>>> and they are a big deal. Being that next week is my birthday, I 
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> want to go to the game. At the moment I don't have anyone to go with
>>>>>>> and thought it would be fun and a big boost of confidence to try 
>>>>>>> going
>>>>>>> by myself.
>>
>>>>>>> For the football game should I call ahead and let someone know I am
>>>>>>> coming so I can be watched out for? (I'm more scared of the drunks
>>>>>>> being a female not because of blindness)
>>
>>>>>>> My concern is not so much getting to the game; my concern is after 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> game. After the games you have 60,000 people all trying to get home 
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the same time and traffic is horrible. There is no way I could get
>>>>>>> home after the game; a cab couldn't get near the stadium. I know
>>>>>>> several people who are tailgating. Would it be safe as a female to 
>>>>>>> try
>>>>>>> navigating the parking lots with all the drunk tailgaters with my 
>>>>>>> cane
>>>>>>> and just asking random directions? Do police or other emergency
>>>>>>> officials patrol the tailgating areas after the games or is it just
>>>>>>> the fans?
>>
>>>>>>> Is it even possible or safe for a blind person, particularly a 
>>>>>>> female
>>>>>>> to go to a major college football game by themselves? Has anyone on
>>>>>>> this list done it or know of anyone who has? Or, am I just crazy?
>>
>>>>>>> Heres the thing. Almost all of the people around here feel sorry for
>>>>>>> me and see me as the poor blind girl. Many people also know my
>>>>>>> mother...and so not only do they see me as the little blind girl but
>>>>>>> if I call them to ask for help with anything they immediately want 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> know why my mother isn't doing it for me, or helping me or whatever.
>>>>>>> If I call someone such as my aunt and go to the game with her and 
>>>>>>> her
>>>>>>> friends and they guide me everywhere (as sighted people seem to want
>>>>>>> to always do) what does that say to them? And, what does it tell 
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> about my new NFB philosophy of cane travel and independence?
>>
>>>>>>> Is there any way of going to the game with someone but them letting 
>>>>>>> me
>>>>>>> be in charge of the traveling? Would that be too much to ask a 
>>>>>>> sighted
>>>>>>> person? So, someone is with me, and I am holding their arm so we can
>>>>>>> stay together but I am in charge...asking for directions, telling 
>>>>>>> them
>>>>>>> which way to go, trying to get us un-lost when we get lost...that 
>>>>>>> sort
>>>>>>> of thing. So, that way I'm with someone but get to practice travel 
>>>>>>> at
>>>>>>> the same time.
>>
>>>>>>> The thing is if I'm just guided I never get the practice and
>>>>>>> confidence...
>>
>>>>>>> Help! I'm torn...it's my birthday...I really want to  practice
>>>>>>> independent travel but also be safe...I love love love the idea of a
>>>>>>> person coming with me but me being in charge of the travel. I don't
>>>>>>> care how I do this football game but one way or the other I want to
>>>>>>> have some independent travel and feel that confidence whether with
>>>>>>> someone or not!
>>>>>>> Help!
>>
>>>>>>> Wouldn't it be so cool to go to my aunt's tailgate aftr the game? I
>>>>>>> can hear her now..."Kerri! How did you get here? What are you doing
>>>>>>> here?" Me:"Oh I just got back from the game. I'm here with my 
>>>>>>> cane...I
>>>>>>> just asked a bunch of directions." She'd probably scream lol!
>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for all help and ideas!
>>
>>>>>>> Kerri
>>
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