[nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

[Jen&Nixon]

This is a very old e-mail, but I had to jump in and give my two cents
regarding this, as my background is and has been working with animals and
soon will be having my own business offering a pet and house sitting
service.

Initially, I think having a sighted person, the instructor, to describe the
various behaviors the dog is exhibiting, would be most beneficial, so you
have some aspect of knowing what is going on, alongside the auditory
feedback. In my case, I read body language of a dog extensively visually, as
I still have some vision and also rely on the little hearing I have as well.

When you work with a dog one-on-one, you will be able to get excellent
tactile feedback on what the dog is doing, so you can easily do what you
need to do. (such as clicker training).

However, meeting with the instructor before hand, and I think the only
accomodation would be, requesting that he or she give detailed verbal
information of the dog's behavior initially, so that you will have the
benefit of understanding what is happening, ... If there is no agression,
some dogs could be quiet, and you may not necessarily know what is happening
to a dog in the distance (such as teaching a group training class).  Most of
the time, you will find, you are going to be working with owners describing
the behavior to you anyways, and this will allow you to give any advicce you
may have that may benefit the person in correcting any behavioral issues
they are experiencing. Hopefully, over time, you will know what is happening
using all of the senses (what little vision you have or none at all)
hearing, touch and believe it or not, smell. 

Here's an example: My sister's two dogs have food aggression issues, during
meals. I have the dogs eating in two separate rooms (managing the behavior),
to avoid any issues. When the two were together (my sister never warned me
there was concerns until I started to sit for them), they barked and snarled
at each other, and a certain aura/smell can dissipate from them when they
fight. Using your sense of smell can be handy in those circumstances.

I wish you luck in this endeavor, and if you ever wish to speak with someone
who has been doing extensive reading and watching of behavior, etc, you are
welcomed to e-mail if you ever would like to get some ideas from me how to
best assess certain behavioral issues. Keep in mind, although, I keep an
open mind on training methods, I usually use operant conditioning methods,
and not the traditional training methods as much, and have many "tools in my
tool box".


Jennifer McEachen and "Nixon"
Guide Dogs for the Blind, Inc.
Alumni Association Board of Directors and secretary
jenandnixon at gmail.com / jmceachen at guidedogs.com

-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Jedi
Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 8:19 PM
To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

I've already said something similar, but I think it's worth saying again. By
having a sighted person give you visual feedback on the dog, the notion that
sight is requiried for that feedback in the first place is reconfirmed.
Instead, it would be worth it to you for all kinds of reasons to learn to
get that feedback non-visually. Not only would you prove that sight is not
required thereby opening opportunities for other blind people, but you also
have a skill set that you can use whether sighted people are available or
not. Does that make sense?

Respectfully,
Jedi

Original message:
> Joe,

> The easy part is reading up to figure out how dogs behave agressively, 
> and i could pull out a bunch of dog training books and take notes on 
> what to look for in agressive dogs.  Because dogs are visual in 
> agressive situations, for  the most part, not being able to see would 
> hender me ffrom not knowing when to react. Hence bringing along 
> someone who could give me visual feed back.  They wouldn't be telling 
> me what to do; they would be telling me what the dog is doing.

> Technically, i could work 300 hours, training obediance courses and 
> not dealing with agrssive dogs, then  take a dog training 
> certification test, and become nationally certified that way. However 
> my thought was that working with the schedule would make  learning to
train dogs a bit easier.

> So the way i se it, i have two options:

> 1.  fight to get into the school, which could set me  up with a job 
> apon graduation, and teach me how to market myself...all in the course 
> of 40  to 60 weeks.  It would also add another training certificate 
> under my belt. Then after the school, take a national certification 
> test, which consits of 250 multiple choice questions relating to every 
> part of dog training and 300 hours of dog traing with 25 percent of 
> that being working at local animal shelters.

> or

> 2.  Read every book i can on  dog training to teach myself, go to as 
> many dog training workshops and dog training organization meetings as 
> i can, apply all of that knowledge in helping people train their dogs, 
> volonteer at a shelter until i get to 300 hours, take business classes 
> to learn how to market myself, and take that 250 multiple choice 
> question test i was talking about.

> Option 1 is definitely quicker, but i still want to hear your thoughts

> Val

> PS, either way, i will be a dog trainer.
> On Aug 16, 2010, at 7:14 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

>> Valerie,

>> I think you'd better find a good way of conveying this to the school.  
>> It might be a good idea to learn what characteristics aggressive dogs 
>> are likely to display and spend time in an instructional setting 
>> learning how to deal with them, but if I were the school personnel 
>> and you said you needed a sighted person to accompany you to a 
>> client's home, I'd grow suspicious all over again about whether or 
>> not you would be fit to do the job.  I know readers help us 
>> successfully complete exams, but this is because without readers we 
>> sometimes have no way of perceiving the material.  With something as 
>> hands-on as dog training, I would think you would be prepared to deal 
>> with a number of scenarios, just as orientation instructors would be 
>> prepared to work through a number of traveling obstacles without sighted
assistance.

>> Best,

>> Joe

>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their 
>> sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at 
>> all."--Sam Ewing

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Valerie Gibson
>> Sent: Monday, August 16, 2010 7:51 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] update on dog training career. need help!

>> When dealing with agressive dogs, i would wonder if it would be 
>> altering the program if i had someone who could see acompany me, just 
>> to tell me what's going on visually. That wouldn't alter the program 
>> i would think.  It would be no diferent than having a reader read 
>> tests.

>> If i were at a client's house, and there was an agressive dog, i 
>> could inform the lcient that i was taking someone along with me, 
>> simply to give me visual feedback so that i could assess the 
>> situation.

>> Am i  wrong here?  What do you guys think?

>> Thank you for your feedback.

>> Val
>> On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jedi wrote:

>>> Ug. My brain! Sorry for all those typos folks. Bottom line is
>> that the training itself may be fundamentally altered when a blind 
>> person gets involved, but that's not inherently bad and may benefit 
>> sighted students.

>>> Respectfully,
>>> Jedi

>>> Original message:
>>>> Well, not being able to see might fundamentally alter the way the 
>>>> training is done. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. Blind 
>>>> cane travel instructors are tained a little differently from 
>>>> sighted ones, but having that alternative training available has
>> revoluationized the
>>>> cane travel field. Just some thoughts.

>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Jedi

>>>> Original message:
>>>>> Greetings all,

>>>>> I've just contacted the National Federation of the Blind
>> headquarters,
>>>>> and was put in touch with Charlie  Brown for the problem.
>> I gave him a
>>>>> rundown of what i told you guys.

>>>>> Now, he asks to  see the email that the president and i
>> shared. Going
>>>>> to do that now, and see what he thinks. He watns to see if he  
>>>>> "can push it a bit", given that i wish to start this program in
>> the fall of
>>>>> 2011.  Depending on what he thinks and what happens, i
>> think, he will
>>>>> put me in touchwith someone who can help a bit more.

>>>>> The only thing that kind of worried me was when his concern about, 
>>>>> wether being able to see would enterfeer with the
>> fundalmental training
>>>>> of the program, since programs are allowed to offer reasonable 
>>>>> accomidations, but don't necissarily have to alter their
>> program for you.

>>>>> Wish me luck, and I will keep you posted.
>>>>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 1:22 PM, Justin Young wrote:

>>>>>> Val!

>>>>>> Great attitude to have!  Never give up on the dream!
>>>>>> Great luck and yes please keep us all informed.

>>>>>> Justin

>>>>>> On 8/15/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi all,

>>>>>>> Well, just to be clear, this school does not train guide
>> dogs. ittrains
>>>>>>> trainers to train your everyday house dog pet.

>>>>>>> Because graduation doesn't qualify you as a professional
>> dog trainer in some
>>>>>>> dog trainer organizations, i plan to take a 250 question
>> test that will
>>>>>>> qualify me as  a professional dog trainer.  After that, I
>> do plan on
>>>>>>> training various service dogs.

>>>>>>> You are right in that, even though it's not a guide dog
>> training school, the
>>>>>>> school shoudl consider: what if a blind person gets a
>> confrontational pet
>>>>>>> dog.  Because it's not a guide dog, this is more likely
>> to happen since
>>>>>>> around 2 million people rescue dogs a year in ameria.

>>>>>>> I love reading what you all have to say, and tomorrow i
>> plan to contact the
>>>>>>> national headquarters.  I will keep you all posted.

>>>>>>> Thank you all so much for your support in this.  Right
>> now, my own family is
>>>>>>> hesitant to support me, which shouldn't be suprising but
>> is nevertheless.
>>>>>>> It helps to have the support from the NFB.


>>>>>>> Keep the comments coming, if you have any, and inthe mean
>> time i'll kep you
>>>>>>> guys posted.  Who knows, there may be someone who's
>> thought about becoming a
>>>>>>> dog trainer out there but hasn't due to their
>> blindness.On Aug 15, 2010, at
>>>>>>> 11:33 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:

>>>>>>>> Hi Val and all,

>>>>>>>> I think it's pretty crazy that some of the worst
>> discrimination we
>>>>>>>> face is from fields dedicated to improving the lives of
>> blind people,
>>>>>>>> such as O&M teaching and guide dog training. The
>> underlying attitude
>>>>>>>> is that blind people should be recipients of specialized
>> services, but
>>>>>>>> cannot be the service providers. I think this battle is even 
>>>>>>>> more important to fight because it is unacceptable in my mind
>> that people
>>>>>>>> who train guide dogs for the blind feel the need to 
>>>>>>>> discriminate against blind trainers. For that matter, how does 
>>>>>>>> this
>> school expect
>>>>>>>> its blind students to defend themselves in situations
>> where their dog
>>>>>>>> may be attacked by another animal that is "aggressive and 
>>>>>>>> confrontational"?

>>>>>>>> Arielle

>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Beth <thebluesisloose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Val,
>>>>>>>>> I really love your attitude.  I'm not going to make
>> people like me for
>>>>>>>>> what I want to do for women, so I'm just going to go to
>> school and
>>>>>>>>> becomea social worker for women in battered women's
>> shelters.  So what
>>>>>>>>> if people say I can't stqand a cowering woman and a big
>> violent guy?
>>>>>>>>> I'm tiny, really tiny, and I think short people have pretty 
>>>>>>>>> big brains, mind you.  This goes to show that it's all about 
>>>>>>>>> one's attitude.
>>>>>>>>> Beth

>>>>>>>>> On 8/14/10, Valerie Gibson <valandkayla at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I also do not agree with cuting my losses to this
>> school, simply bcause
>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>> the aftermath, for a couple of reasons.

>>>>>>>>>> 1.  I've looked into other dog training schools, and
>> this one seems to
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> the best. it offers hands-on training over a lot of
>> subjects related to
>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>> training as well as dog care such as neutrition,
>> health problems in
>>>>>>>>>> breeds,
>>>>>>>>>> etc.

>>>>>>>>>> 2.  If i asked a sighted person to find a carreer that
>> they liked, then
>>>>>>>>>> find
>>>>>>>>>> a school that would help them achieve that job, then
>> told them, "now
>>>>>>>>>> take
>>>>>>>>>> that school, and forget about it. find the second
>> best.", they would
>>>>>>>>>> most
>>>>>>>>>> likely tell me to take a long walk off of a short peer.

>>>>>>>>>> Sighted people have professors that may not like them
>> in universities,
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> that does not mean that they should switch classes.

>>>>>>>>>> Even after my schooling, i'm going to be faced with
>> people who do not
>>>>>>>>>> approve of my job vhoice, and even more who will not
>> allow me to train
>>>>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>>>>> dogs due to blindness. I might as well get used to it.

>>>>>>>>>> I am going into the school to gain the knowledge and
>> foundation that i
>>>>>>>>>> need
>>>>>>>>>> to become a successful dog trainer, and i'm not asking
>> anyone to like me
>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>> On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:49 PM, Joe Orozco wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>> Mark,

>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know that I completely agree with finding
>> another school that
>>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>>> be more welcoming and allowing actions to speak for
>> themselves.  It's a
>>>>>>>>>>> good
>>>>>>>>>>> thought if only because it will move along Valerie's
>> career, but not
>>>>>>>>>>> fighting it simply because a victory might expose her
>> to an awkward
>>>>>>>>>>> environment afterward is not good enough to let it
>> go.  A few years ago
>>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>>> sued a Chinese bus carrier after they gave me a hard
>> time about my
>>>>>>>>>>> guide
>>>>>>>>>>> dog
>>>>>>>>>>> on what became three consecutive occasions.  On the
>> first two occasions
>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>> situation became a nuisance involving the police.  I
>> fought it and
>>>>>>>>>>> successfully took my trips to and from New York from
>> DC, but the
>>>>>>>>>>> traveling
>>>>>>>>>>> consisted of a lot of dirty looks and hateful
>> muttering.  On the third
>>>>>>>>>>> attempt I was not even allowed to board the bus, but
>> by then the case
>>>>>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>>>>>> already well on its way to federal court.  My point
>> is that the current
>>>>>>>>>>> school will not learn from Valerie going away.
>> Finding another school
>>>>>>>>>>> while
>>>>>>>>>>> still pursuing action with the current campus is one
>> option, but I hope
>>>>>>>>>>> something will become of this situation.  I do not
>> know Valerie
>>>>>>>>>>> personally.
>>>>>>>>>>> I assume she meets all the other qualifications
>> associated with
>>>>>>>>>>> enrollment
>>>>>>>>>>> and that the only reason enrollment is being denied
>> is that she cannot
>>>>>>>>>>> see.
>>>>>>>>>>> If so, it's an issue that needs to be rectified if
>> for no other reason
>>>>>>>>>>> than
>>>>>>>>>>> that the opportunity needs to exist for future blind
>> applicants.  I
>>>>>>>>>>> don't
>>>>>>>>>>> know if my friendly little bus people would allow
>> people to board their
>>>>>>>>>>> buses with service animals these days, but I know
>> they'll at least
>>>>>>>>>>> think
>>>>>>>>>>> twice before saying "no."

>>>>>>>>>>> Best,

>>>>>>>>>>> Joe

>>>>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some
>> turn up their
>>>>>>>>>>> sleeves,
>>>>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at
>> all."--Sam Ewing


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>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org

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