[nabs-l] waver

Sun Jan 9 22:54:12 UTC 2011

Hello Josh,

I think that Arielle has articulated my thoughts better than I could have. 
Additionally let me say that I think it is very "dangerous" for us to ask to 
be excused from required classes because of blindness, and it will have an 
impact on your ability to get a job.  In this specific case of MS Project, 
it is probably true that you will not end up using this software in a job 
because it is not very accessible given its graphical nature.  However, it 
is essential that you learn how to use it and master its concepts during 
your education, so that you know what the program is capable of, and so you 
can communicate with your sighted colleagues who may be using MS Project on 
joint work assignments once you're employed.  When I was doing my undergrad 
program in mechanical engineering, we all had to take a class called design 
communication.  One third of this course was learning to do drafting which 
is the primary way that mechanical designs are communicated among engineers. 
I did not ask to be excused from this class, because I knew I needed to 
learn how to do drafting, not that I would ever actually be assigned to do 
this as a working engineer.  I did learn enough about drafting that if a 
sighted person, even a non engineer, is describing a mechanical diagram to 
me, I can ask questions, such as is the line solid or dotted, and I can 
pretty quickly know what is contained in the drawing.  Moreover, I did 
develop a pretty good system for drawing my own mechanical diagrams 
independently.  Had I been excused from this course I would not had been as 
good an engineer as I was for having taken the course.

When I went for job interviews, the most common first question was, "how did 
you do drafting?"  I described my method and system, and they were always 
impressed.  I'm sure they never thought that my system was sufficient that 
they would have assigned me to do drafting, but they did conclude that I was 
a problem solver, and this is what most employers in technology fields are 
looking for.  If I had told them that I was excused from drafting, they 
would have quite rightly wondered what other essential things I had been 
excused from, and what other gaps were present in my education.

Microsoft Project is an amazingly powerful program, and you need to learn 
how to use it, even though you will probably not be able to use it 
independently with any screen reader.  I suspect that you will need to use 
readers to accomplish this course, and this is perfectly acceptable.  As you 
have been advised by several people here so far, you must not give up. 
Lot's of us who are totally blind have been successful in programs which are 
fairly visual.  As I recall Arielle received her undergrad degree in 
biology, and much of that work is visual.  I worked as a systems analyst for 
IBM for a number of years after I earned an Masters degree in computer 
science, and some aspects of both my school work and professional work was 
visual.  My point is that many blind people have already done the type of 
thing you are trying to do, so please feel confident that you are not 
engaged in something which is impossible, or can only be done by having 
classes waived for you.

We're all pulling for you, so take on MS Project knowing that you can do it, 
and be excited by what you are about to learn.

All the best,
Dennis

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
To: "Ashley Bramlett" <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>; "National Association of 
Blind Students mailing list" <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver

> Hi Josh and all,
>
> I can think of very few cases in which getting a course waived because
> of blindness is justifiable. I know this has been mentioned already,
> but in my experience almost any course can be completed with the help
> of a good human reader, regardless of the accessibility of necessary
> software. A reader will be much, much less expensive than SuperNova or
> other software.
>
> I think one of the biggest misconceptions, held by blind and sighted
> people alike, is that if a blind person can't do a task independently,
> they can't do the task at all. But decades of blind students who were
> educated prior to the computer era have proven that true success is
> possible through appropriate collaborations with readers and other
> assistants. Many state agencies for the blind have provisions in their
> statutes requiring them to pay for reader services. If not, it is
> possible to hire readers on a volunteer basis, offering to provide a
> service such as food, babysitting, etc. as compensation or working
> with volunteers from an organization that requires them to complete
> service hours. Many college clubs, such as fraternities and sororities
> or service organizations, or even groups at a church or other
> religious organizations require their members to perform volunteer
> service.
>
> For example, I have been successful thus far in my doctoral program in
> psychology despite not being able to independently enter data or make
> poster presentations. I work with research assistants who enter the
> data and help me with formatting my posters and graphical
> presentations of my research. I also cannot independently grade
> handwritten tests for my teaching assistant jobs, but I can do so by
> working with a reader who reads the tests to me. It would be a real
> shame if I, or someone in my graduate program, thought I couldn't
> participate in the program because I can't do these tasks all by
> myself. Similarly, some people think a blind person cannot teach
> elementary school because they cannot watch all the kids at once and
> ascertain whether they are fooling around silently during class. Yet
> many blind elementary school teachers work with assistants who help
> with visual classroom monitoring so they are free to instruct the
> class. In both of these cases, the blind person is still performing
> the important work. I still independently develop the content for my
> data presentations and I decide what grades students will get on their
> tests after the reader has told me what the students wrote. The blind
> teacher is still the one in charge of the classroom and the one who
> decides how mischievous students will be disciplined after they are
> identified by the teacher's aide. It is also important to remember
> that in many of these professions, sighted people also work with
> similar kinds of assistants. Some sighted teachers have
> paraprofessionals (teacher's aides). Although my sighted classmates
> don't use their RA's to help them with presentations, they do often
> work with RA's who provide data entry assistance.
>
> My point is that I would caution against saying something is
> impossible just because it can't be done without assistance. Of
> course, the ideal is to have software designed to be accessible out of
> the box so we can do everything independently. But until that day
> comes, I would not give up on a class or an activity until all
> options, including use of human readers, have been exhausted.
>
> Good luck!
> Arielle
>
> On 1/9/11, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>> Josh,
>> Sorry to be blunt but your ideas seem like dreams.  Do you think your voc
>> rehab agency will buy you a different screen reader for one class?  I 
>> highly
>> doubt it because budgets are tight and its not cost effective to buy
>> something you'll use three months.  Any adaptive technology purchase has 
>> to
>> be justifiable and related to your employment goal.
>> Next for the companies to script their screen readers and make them
>> accessible its a large undertaking and will not happen in the time you 
>> need
>> it to.  Even if you take a semester off as you said you would, do you 
>> think
>> the companies will be ready?  Did you ask them the time frame of the
>> scripting process?
>> If MS project is graphical it may not be something that is rendered
>> accessible; some software is just not.
>> Also there needs to be a large demand for this.  Are many blind people
>> needing Ms project and made the request? I have no idea.
>>
>> Rather than getting a waver, I suggest some things.  Hire a reader to 
>> help
>> you; get a course substitution for the class.  Could you use another 
>> program
>> to accomplish the same goals of the class?
>>
>> Anyway, good luck figuring this out but I don't think asking companies to
>> script their software, and expecting it to be ready soon is a realistic
>> idea.
>>
>> Ashley
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Josh Kennedy" <jkenn337 at gmail.com>
>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:13 PM
>> Subject: [nabs-l] waver
>>
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> I used to think I would need a waver for this project management class.
>>> You see if I can get gwmicro or serotek or both to make their readers
>>> accessible, great. if not, I will get voc rehab to get me supernova.
>>> supernova is the only screen reader which makes ms-project2007 and 2010
>>> accessible.
>>>
>>> Josh
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
>
> -- 
> Arielle Silverman
> President, National Association of Blind Students
> Phone:  602-502-2255
> Email:
> nabs.president at gmail.com
> Website:
> www.nabslink.org
>
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