[nabs-l] waver

Mon Jan 10 02:41:44 UTC 2011

Wa wa wa, I have so much crap to deal with, I'm the poor disadvantaged
blind person, everyone have pity on me...

LOL...

Sorry - couldn't resist.

Seriously, though, in the grand scheme of things, whether you are
blind or not - no one gives a damn.  Ultimately, we've all got to fend
for ourselves and no one, I repeat no one, should be permitted to skip
up a requirement in a program because they are blind.  Being blind
does not make us special; thus, we deserve no special exceptions.  Of
course, there's the obvious; if you have to take a course that
requires that you look through a telescope or something, that is
clearly something that we cannot do; therefore, different arrangements
may need to be made.

Sorry if the post seems harsh but I have little tolerance for people
who whine about their blindness and "all the crap we have to deal
with."

Thanks,
Robby

On 1/9/11, Rob Blachowicz <rob_blach at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I will mostly agree but I think that it's harder to do and the thing that
> needs doing may not be something that’s absolutly nessessary or something
> that we might not even want to do.  Another words should there always be a
> need for a the will to do something.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home
> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 9:18 PM
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver
>
> Okay, I am trying to tread carefully here. As a person who is blind, I do
> not like to admit that there are things that I cannot do. In most cases,
> that is not true. If there is a will, there is a way. However, I do admit
> that there is a limit to this. There are things that I cannot do. I am not
> going to name them here because I do not want to start a debate, as this
> limit is different for all of us. However, I do think that how something
> could be achieved should at least be considered before just saying that it
> is not possible.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rob Blachowicz" <rob_blach at hotmail.com>
> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 6:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver
>
>
>> ?
>> There it is.  This is what I was pointing out.  If a course isn't needed
>> for your major like a "filler course as there called" why should you waist
>>
>> your time being non-productive.  It's like putting a person at a job their
>>
>> not good at.  So lets say I had two blind people joe and Frank.  Joe was
>> good at filing papers and Frank wasn't and fumbled and had a hard time and
>>
>> even with training himself didn't really pick up speed.  So are all blind
>> people the same or should we be fighting that we are all different and
>> that we should be looked as such.
>> Rob
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dennis Clark
>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 8:57 PM
>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver
>>
>> Hello humberto,
>> You have raised an interesting question, but I think my analysis leads me
>> to
>> a different conclusion than you reach.  My thinking is that if one is a
>> blind person working in, or hoping to work in the private sector,
>> efficiency
>> is much more important than independence.  If you as a blind person can do
>>
>> a
>> job "independently" as quickly as a sighted person can do the job, or as
>> quickly as you can do it as a blind person with sighted assistance, then
>> you
>> are golden.  However, if you are functioning independently, but working
>> slower than a sighted person, then you are not independent.  Why should I
>> as
>> an employer be happy about writing you a paycheck when you took longer to
>> do
>> the job, and cost me more money than would have been true if you were a
>> sighted employee?  How is your independence supposed to make me feel
>> better
>> about the higher cost of hiring you?
>>
>> The post which initiated this discussion concerned using M.S. Project with
>>
>> a
>> screen reader.  I have some experience with this program, and no one is
>> going to be able to use most of the features of this program with a screen
>> reader.  Among other things it displays pert and ghant charts to convey
>> information about a project, it uses diagrams to convey critical path
>> analysis, etc.  Its purpose is to use relational pictures to quickly
>> convey
>> project flow and bottlenecks.  How can a screen reader be used to convey
>> this kind of pictorial information?
>>
>> Perhaps at some time in the future, way in the future, we will be able to
>> load up every blind person with all the hardware and software necessary to
>> make us virtually sighted, and therefore "independent."  For this to
>> actually happen, technology for sighted people is going to need to come to
>>
>> a
>> screeching halt, so that we can have the necessary time to adapt what is
>> already there to make it accessible.  Consider this.  If technology
>> continues to evolve for sighted people, and if we assume at least an 18
>> month delay to make the existing products accessible to us, we will always
>> be 18 months behind our sighted colleagues.  Moreover, the lifecycle of
>> today's products is hardly longer than 18 months, so by the time our
>> adaptive software and hardware is available, the next release is sold to
>> the
>> employers and sighted public and we are once again behind, and not
>> independent.   Of course we cannot halt continuing development for sighted
>> people, so our ability to access and use products in the work place
>> independently, is going to continue to lag behind unless manufacturers can
>> be forced to make their products accessible to the blind the day they are
>> released to the sighted public generally.  I think, though possibly
>> incorrectly, that the NFB is opposed to forcing manufacturers to make
>> their
>> products accessible to us, so what is the solution.
>>
>> I also wonder how blind people are going to become rich enough to buy all
>> these independence goodies.  What portion of the NFB membership or blind
>> people in this country are living on either SSI or SSDI?  I think this
>> places us as a group way below the poverty level, and unless something
>> changes in a major way, I don't see many of us owning homes, automated
>> cars
>> which will drive us around, or even the software and hardware we need to
>> make us functional, let alone independent.  An idea or "philosophy" if we
>> want to elevate the independence idea to this level, is only valid or
>> worthwhile, if it can withstand reality testing.  If it cannot, then it is
>> nothing more than a fantasy which is interfering with our progress, not
>> advancing it.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "humberto" <humbertoa5369 at netzero.net>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver
>>
>>
>>> Hello all.
>>> I can understand your points about readers and being able to get
>>> assistance in college. I understand that even sighted people request
>>> assistance, I don't blame them for that. I know things can be done this
>>> way, but isn't it the goal of the National Federation of the blind and
>>> the blind ourselves to be as independent as the sighted? Can't we do and
>>> fight for our freedom just like the sighted?
>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>From: Arielle Silverman <nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>To: Ashley Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>, National
>>> Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>Date sent: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 14:05:53 -0700
>>>>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] waver
>>>
>>>>Hi Josh and all,
>>>
>>>>I can think of very few cases in which getting a course waived
>>> because
>>>>of blindness is justifiable. I know this has been mentioned
>>> already,
>>>>but in my experience almost any course can be completed with the
>>> help
>>>>of a good human reader, regardless of the accessibility of
>>> necessary
>>>>software. A reader will be much, much less expensive than
>>> SuperNova or
>>>>other software.
>>>
>>>>I think one of the biggest misconceptions, held by blind and
>>> sighted
>>>>people alike, is that if a blind person can't do a task
>>> independently,
>>>>they can't do the task at all. But decades of blind students who
>>> were
>>>>educated prior to the computer era have proven that true success
>>> is
>>>>possible through appropriate collaborations with readers and
>>> other
>>>>assistants. Many state agencies for the blind have provisions in
>>> their
>>>>statutes requiring them to pay for reader services. If not, it is
>>>>possible to hire readers on a volunteer basis, offering to
>>> provide a
>>>>service such as food, babysitting, etc. as compensation or
>>> working
>>>>with volunteers from an organization that requires them to
>>> complete
>>>>service hours. Many college clubs, such as fraternities and
>>> sororities
>>>>or service organizations, or even groups at a church or other
>>>>religious organizations require their members to perform
>>> volunteer
>>>>service.
>>>
>>>>For example, I have been successful thus far in my doctoral
>>> program in
>>>>psychology despite not being able to independently enter data or
>>> make
>>>>poster presentations. I work with research assistants who enter
>>> the
>>>>data and help me with formatting my posters and graphical
>>>>presentations of my research. I also cannot independently grade
>>>>handwritten tests for my teaching assistant jobs, but I can do so
>>> by
>>>>working with a reader who reads the tests to me. It would be a
>>> real
>>>>shame if I, or someone in my graduate program, thought I couldn't
>>>>participate in the program because I can't do these tasks all by
>>>>myself. Similarly, some people think a blind person cannot teach
>>>>elementary school because they cannot watch all the kids at once
>>> and
>>>>ascertain whether they are fooling around silently during class.
>>> Yet
>>>>many blind elementary school teachers work with assistants who
>>> help
>>>>with visual classroom monitoring so they are free to instruct the
>>>>class. In both of these cases, the blind person is still
>>> performing
>>>>the important work. I still independently develop the content for
>>> my
>>>>data presentations and I decide what grades students will get on
>>> their
>>>>tests after the reader has told me what the students wrote. The
>>> blind
>>>>teacher is still the one in charge of the classroom and the one
>>> who
>>>>decides how mischievous students will be disciplined after they
>>> are
>>>>identified by the teacher's aide. It is also important to
>>> remember
>>>>that in many of these professions, sighted people also work with
>>>>similar kinds of assistants. Some sighted teachers have
>>>>paraprofessionals (teacher's aides). Although my sighted
>>> classmates
>>>>don't use their RA's to help them with presentations, they do
>>> often
>>>>work with RA's who provide data entry assistance.
>>>
>>>>My point is that I would caution against saying something is
>>>>impossible just because it can't be done without assistance. Of
>>>>course, the ideal is to have software designed to be accessible
>>> out of
>>>>the box so we can do everything independently. But until that day
>>>>comes, I would not give up on a class or an activity until all
>>>>options, including use of human readers, have been exhausted.
>>>
>>>>Good luck!
>>>>Arielle
>>>
>>>>On 1/9/11, Ashley  Bramlett <bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>> Josh,
>>>>> Sorry to be blunt but your ideas seem like dreams.  Do you think
>>> your voc
>>>>> rehab agency will buy you a different screen reader for one
>>> class?  I highly
>>>>> doubt it because budgets are tight and its not cost effective to
>>> buy
>>>>> something you'll use three months.  Any adaptive technology
>>> purchase has to
>>>>> be justifiable and related to your employment goal.
>>>>> Next for the companies to script their screen readers and make
>>> them
>>>>> accessible its a large undertaking and will not happen in the
>>> time you need
>>>>> it to.  Even if you take a semester off as you said you would,
>>> do you think
>>>>> the companies will be ready?  Did you ask them the time frame of
>>> the
>>>>> scripting process?
>>>>> If MS project is graphical it may not be something that is
>>> rendered
>>>>> accessible; some software is just not.
>>>>> Also there needs to be a large demand for this.  Are many blind
>>> people
>>>>> needing Ms project and made the request? I have no idea.
>>>
>>>>> Rather than getting a waver, I suggest some things.  Hire a
>>> reader to help
>>>>> you; get a course substitution for the class.  Could you use
>>> another program
>>>>> to accomplish the same goals of the class?
>>>
>>>>> Anyway, good luck figuring this out but I don't think asking
>>> companies to
>>>>> script their software, and expecting it to be ready soon is a
>>> realistic
>>>>> idea.
>>>
>>>>> Ashley
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Josh Kennedy" <jkenn337 at gmail.com
>>>>> To: <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:13 PM
>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] waver
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> Hi
>>>
>>>>>> I used to think I would need a waver for this project management
>>> class.
>>>>>> You see if I can get gwmicro or serotek or both to make their
>>> readers
>>>>>> accessible, great. if not, I will get voc rehab to get me
>>> supernova.
>>>>>> supernova is the only screen reader which makes ms-project2007
>>> and 2010
>>>>>> accessible.
>>>
>>>>>> Josh
>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Arielle Silverman
>>>>President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>Email:
>>>>nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>Website:
>>>>www.nabslink.org
>>>
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>>>
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>>
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>
>
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-- 
Robert Spangler
The University of Toledo
Student Senate - SSIPS Committee
Student Government Cabinet - Advanced Team
Mentoring Collaborative - Student Mentor