[nabs-l] Seminars, cooking, the Federation and my boredom

[T. Joseph Carter]

I’d like no cook recipes for just a few ingredients because it’s too 
hot in my kitchen before I turn on the stove, and because I’m a lazy 
bachelor.  *grin*

Joseph - KF7QZC


On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 08:28:37PM -0500, Liz Bottner wrote:
>Hi all,
>    I just want to say that for blind people who have never before learned
>to cook, the first and easiest thing to learn, not to mention a
>confidence-builder, is to prepare no-cook meals. Once that is mastered, the
>oven and stove, (which, to some, can be viewed as somewhat frightening at
>first), can then be looked at. Also, someone who is blind might have other
>disabilities such as neuropathy (lost feeling in hands and feet) or
>cognitive abilities that make it so using the stove is more difficult or
>just not doable. The bottom line is that everyone has individual needs, and
>what may be easy for one person may not be so for another. I also do not
>think this seminar was meant to be demeaning at all. I feel that Hadley has
>a very well-respected reputation and opinion of what blind people are
>capable of.
>
>Just my thoughts.
>
>Liz Bottner
>Guiding Eyes Graduate Council
>GEB Voicemail:  800-942-0149 Ext. 2531
>e-mail:
>liziswhatis at hotmail.com
>Visit my LiveJournal:
>http://unsilenceddream.livejournal.com
>Follow me on Twitter:
>http://twitter.com/lizbot
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>Of Bridgit Pollpeter
>Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 4:32 PM
>To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>Subject: [nabs-l] Seminars, cooking, the Federation and my boredom
>
>Hello,
>
>I actually don't have much work to do today so I've been perusing some
>NFB email list, and I've been intrigued by this discussion on a cooking
>seminar offered by Hadley.  At the risk of keeping this vein open, I
>have my own tidbits to offer on the topic.
>
>While I hold my own views on institutions like Hadley, I do believe we
>all have the right to access resources available that we feel provide us
>with knowledge and assistance, and we have the right to use these
>resources without being attacked or condescended to.  Not that I'm
>suggesting anyone here has behaved in such a manner.
>
>As human beings, it is our fundamental right to educate ourselves in
>ways we see best.  And people shouldn't make us feel guilty or dependent
>for choosing certain routes.
>
>However, we can, and should, challenge one another.  If we have personal
>experiences we feel can help others, by all means share.  And if we
>believe people are not reaching their full potential, we should provide
>suggestions and resources.
>
>Ultimately, it is about an informed decision.  If I believe I have
>access to information and resources that will inform people about the
>cooking process nonvisually and does not require a seminar, they I
>should share my knowledge so you have been presented with different
>sides and opinions and can now choose what option fits best.
>
>Trust me, I can play the finger-pointing, condescending game too, but
>where does this get us?  People don't respond to this- in fact, they
>will probably shut down and refuse to listen to anything you have to
>say.  It's all about presentation.  Do I believe we can learn nonvisual
>cooking techniques without a seminar, yes, and I can share my personal
>process and provide further info, but I also understand it is not my
>place, necessarily, to question in a negative way if others are
>enthusiastic about something like an online seminar.
>
>Based on my understanding and interpretation, it does seem a tad
>demeaning that a seminar about cooking that is specifically advertised
>to and for blind people is about preparing food that does not require
>cooking/baking.  Where is the difficulty in making something like a
>sandwich or salad?  I honestly fail to understand why such a seminar is
>necessary.  Blind or sighted, if food does not require cooking/baking
>elements, where is the difficulty?  The confusion?  To be honest,
>whether this is the intention or not, it does seem to say that it is
>better for blind people to avoid preparing meals that require boiling,
>cooking on a hot stove top or baking in a hot oven.  I would be
>interested to know if they also "taught" non-cooking meals that did not
>require utensils like knives too.
>
>I have to say, while this seminar may not be all bad, it does not seem
>Hadley is challenging blind people.  If this was about a seminar
>teaching basic cooking skills, or how to prepare easy recipes, I could
>get on board, but the fact that this seems to be about learning
>alternative ways to make cold or non-cooked meals, well, once again I
>ask, how hard is it to make these types of food, or figure out
>"adaptive" ways to do it?  Adaptive techniques are not really necessary
>to make meals like this.
>
>Personally, I never struggled to figure my way around a kitchen once I
>lost my sight.  I simply continued doing things how I always did them,
>and problem solved when I required an accommodation.  I've yet to meet
>an obstacle while cooking that I couldn't figure out on my own and in a
>matter of minutes.  For me, it was all common sense.  And numerous
>accessible devices exist for the kitchen, but in my experience, 99% of
>them are not necessary, and a lot of these products are unfortunately
>cheaply made and just don't hold up over time.
>
>The few accessible devices I use are a talking digital timer, a talking
>meat thermometer, crooked measuring spoons and Braille labels for food
>products.  Beyond this, I've not required accessible special items.  And
>I do some pretty fancy stuff in the kitchen.
>
>However, if you feel something like a seminar is essential for you to
>learn more about nonvisual cooking, that is your right.  I'm sure
>similar seminars have benefited many people, and the ultimate outcome is
>for blind people to be independent; what does it matter how we get
>there?
>
>I still think it is better to leave our comfort zone.  Hadley should
>operate to challenge us.  A course on basic cooking skills would review
>adaptive techniques just as much as any other course on cooking.  I
>don't know what kind of "recipes" they plan on teaching during this
>seminar, but I can't imagine, for the life of me, what type of
>non-cooked recipe requires a 60 minute lesson.
>
>And my understanding is that with Hadley classes, registered students
>have like a year or something to complete a course, and even then, they
>can still finish the class without any penalties.  How does this
>challenge us?  How does it prepare us for the "real world?"  No credited
>college or place of business will follow such practices.  My knowledge
>of Hadley is limited, although I do know someone currently taking a
>Hadley class and this is how I found out about their rule on completion
>with a class.  It just does not seem to profess a program geared towards
>preparing people for any real life situation, whether it be a credited
>school, employment or even personal pursuits.  Deadlines and guidelines
>exist for everything, and if an institution like Hadley does not require
>registraints to adhere to any tangible deadline, it does not challenge
>or prepare anyone for a life of true equality.
>
>Now, I have a point to bring up that I take umbrage with.
>
>The intent behind this comment may have been different than how it
>sounds, but it was stated that, "I know NFB people don't like adaptive
>techniques  sometimes, so you can take it or leave it.  But we do need
>adaptive  techniques and a newly blind person may not know what to do.
>We often use the  sense of touch instead of seeing to know the
>consistency of food and keep  tabs on what we are doing.  So those are
>adaptive techniques."
>
>Where did anyone get the idea that the NFB does not like adaptive
>techniques?  That is what we instill in people- that we can be
>completely independent by using some adaptive skills and techniques at
>times.  And we have an entire online store, the Independence Market,
>that sells a myriad of products and devices that can be purchased and
>used.
>
>If we did not use or advertise alternative and adaptive techniques, we
>would not experience the kind of independence the NFB boast about.  And
>we are entirely aware, being an organization of blind people, that we
>often learn tactilely and that this in essence is employing an adaptive
>technique.  I've never heard a NFB member say adaptive techniques were
>bad or wrong either in private conversation or during a speech or
>presentation like at convention or elsewhere.
>
>Many of us may not feel items like talking microwaves or liquid
>measuring devices are necessary, but this does not mean we balk at all
>and any adaptive technique.  It is in fact impossible to live as a blind
>person and not use adaptive techniques- either ones learned in training
>or advertised by the NFB, or ones you create on your own.
>
>I will now be politically incorrect and potentially offensive and say
>that the statement that the NFB is against adaptive techniques is
>ludicrous.
>
>Well, now that I've written a novel, I will end with this:
>
>Whenever people tell me I'm doing a good job, I simply give my brightest
>smile and say, "Thanks.  You're doing a good job too."  Works like a
>charm!  *smile*
>
>Sincerely,
>Bridgit Kuenning-Pollpeter
>Read my blog for Live Well Nebraska.com at
>http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/author/bpollpeter/
>
>Are you saying that we may not dare to ask certain questions if
>they may
> upset the sighted public, even here amongst our blind peers?  If
>so, I
> emphatically disagree, but I am not sure I am understanding you
>correctly.
>
> I asked an honest question of the members of the NABS list, as
>to whether
> or not this seminar by Hadley?n organization that deals in
>blindness and
> nothing but?eemed condescending at all to
> anyone else.  It did to me, but I
> acknowledged in the asking that I? basically cynical and jaded
>about such
> things.
>
> I accept that the majority opinion is that no, there? nothing
>wrong with
> Hadley? seminar.  But I make no apology whatsoever for asking
>the question
> on an NFB list.
>
> The missing of the NFB is to attain equality for the blind by
>giving us the
> means to be regarded as any other non-blind person, and then
>treating us
> accordingly.  We cannot do that if, even within our own
>organization, we
> cannot discuss whether or not those who
> provide us with services are working
> toward that goal or against it.
>
> Some of us are perhaps overly sensitive to these issues, and I
>certainly
> count myself among them.  But that? why I asked the question
>here, on an
> NFB list, to other generally like-minded blind people.  I did
>not put the
> question out to the sighted public, who generally wouldn? be
>expected to
> understand what the big deal is (even my own sighted friends and
>loved ones
> wouldn? get it!)
>
> If we start mincing words here, then the next time some ignorant
>sightie
> (yes, I said ignorant sightie) comes up to one of us as we?e
>walking down
> the street and says, "You?e doing SUCH A
> GOOD JOB," we?e likely to get the
> idea that we should accept the "compliment" we?e being given,
>despite the
> fact that walking is a task most two year olds have largely
>mastered.  How
> else would we know it was acceptable to
> consider that a sign of ignorance we
> should correct if we can?  Or that it was
> okay to maybe be a little offended
> ourselves that this is what we are reduced to in that person?
>estimation?
>
> I? not generally known for political correctness.  I?
>certainly not known
> for it regarding blindness on NFB mailing lists.  I do not
>expect that will
> change in the near future.
>
> Joseph - KF7QZC
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 05:37:29PM -0700, Carly Mihalakis Esq.
>wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi, Joseph,
>
> 'Seems to me, a response such as that elicited by an idea of
>no-cook
> recipes was, in a word a little uncalled for, as there,
>contained in the
> helpful sharing of cookless recipes no mention of blindness
>whatsoever.
> Furthermore, I believe there are  even occasions in which ,
>no-cook food
> preparation is in order and, actually preparing a dish would be
>inappropriate.
>
> To Alienate both main stream folk, as well as other populations
>will do
> actual wonders for our social  ambiguities, doncha think?  Please, easy
>on the over reactions!  for today,  Car7/19/2011,
>bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote:
>
> Joeseph, Actually, I found this fine.  I want to attend a hadley
>webinar
>  but that time doesn't work for me.  Maybe
> they are archived; the wording of
> it says its summer and they want to talk about food prep that
>doesn't
> require a hot kitchen.  Also it says whether
> you are preparing for yourself
> or to impress guests.  So therefore they are
> assuming that you will prepare
> for yourself, family or friends; whatever you need to do.
>Hadley targets
> many many people including teachers of the blind and visually
>impaired;
> newly blind adults and those blind from birth.  I take it that
>this is an
> overview of cooking ideas and recipies.  Its probably something
>basic that
> most could follow from the novice cook to the advanced cook who
>wants
> something simple.  I didn't find it offensive at all; I think we
>read more
> into things sometimes.  It does say they will discuss tips for
>people with
> visual impairments; I know NFB people don't like adaptive
>techniques
> sometimes, so you can take it or leave it.  But we do need
>adaptive
> techniques and a newly blind person may not know what to do.
>Many blind
> cooks use a tray or something to put
> their  pots and pans and bowls on while
> preparing food so any spills fall on the tray and its easier to
>clean up.
> Some blind people use liquid level indicators  to know when
>their cup is
> full of the desired liquid.  More often people use a finger to
>fill the
> bowl/cup or judge by sound.  But for those who can't or don't
>want to use
> their finger, the liquid level indicator is an option.  We often
>use the
> sense of touch instead of seeing to know the consistency of food
>and keep
> tabs on what we are doing.  So those are adaptive techniques.
>Anyone may
> want simple cold food recipies; Hadley just decided to target it
>to blind
> people.  However I do agree a sixty minute
> seminar is too short to cover such
> a topic.  But I guess that is all the time they had.  Well,
>anyone who
> attends can judge afterward.  Ashley -----Original Message-----
>From: T.
> Joseph Carter Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2011
> 3:10 PM To: National Association
> of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re:
> [nabs-l] Fwd: Reminder-Upcoming
> Seminars: NO COOK Cooking! and Going Ape for Apps-Hot New
>Accessible Apps
> for Your iDevice I?? of two minds on this, perhaps I?? being
>overly
> sensitive.  First, there?? the notion of a seminar for
>preparing food
> without cooking it.  Where do I begin?  Let?? start with the
>seminar
> itself: Most sighted people would never
> expect a seminar to teach them how
> to follow a recipe.  Either you can or you
> don?? have the requisite skills
> to do it.  If you don?? have the skills, I?? not sure how a
>60 minute
> webcast is going to help you get them.  A list of recipes should
>suffice,
> and indeed our own Braille Monitor
> publishes recipes (though not often the
> no-cooking variety) with the assumption
> that fellow blind readers can follow
> them if they are so inclined.  Then there?? the no cooking
>aspect.
>  Inherently in this is the unavoidable
> assumption that the blind cannot or
> should not be cooking food.  Any of you who
> live alone doubtlessly have SOME
> food prep skill, even if you??e never
> learned to "cook" as such, and your
> skill mostly consists of using a microwave
> and boiling water.  But as I said,
> perhaps I am being overly sensitive.  The seminar format could
>allow for
> suggestions for improving the recipes a bit
> (in which case an hour seems too
> short for more than maybe two or three recipes), so maybe
>that?? what
> they??e got in mind.  Possibly the
> no-cook aspect has more to do with the
> idea that it?? summer and you don??
> want to spend a lot of time in a hot
> kitchen?r  that you would prefer cold
> foods to hot ones at this time of the
> year.  Or perhaps they are targeting this to college students
>who live on
> campus and don?? have the means to cook
> in any traditional way.  Or maybe,
> it?? because we??e blind.  Joseph - KF7QZC On Tue, Jul 19,
>
>
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