[nabs-l] Security in ourselves, acceptance in others

[David Andrews]

I will say two things, and then ask everybody to just move 
on.  Frankly what I objected the most was attaching three versions of 
the Braille Forum to a message.  It just isn't necessary for the 
discussion of one article.  and ... in general I think I run things 
with a pretty light hand -- the other endless debates prove that, but 
when I do say something why is it that everybody feels compelled to 
argue with me.?

Dave


>Dave,
>   I know you have the final say on what does and does not appear on
>this list.  I certainly respect your decision.  However, I do have one
>concern.
>   Certainly correct me if I'm wrong but, as I understand it, the
>purpose of this list is to discuss matters relevant to blind students.
>  For me as a blind student, knowing the history and background of the
>two major consumer organizations that represent blind people is
>absolutely important, critical even.  Blind students, many of whom
>having little or no exposure to either us or the Council, wonder why
>there are such deep-seeded philosophical differences that keep our two
>organizations from always working together.  Certainly I didn't
>understand the huge differences between the NFB and ACB until I
>studied their histories at length, and it was one of the biggest
>factors that kept me out of the Federation.  I thought "why can't
>these people just work together and get along?"  Had I been exposed to
>this history earlier in my academic career, it's fair to say I would
>have been more willing to network with other blind students in the
>Federation at a younger age.  My perception was honestly that there
>were two organizations, basically working for the same thing but
>bickering over silly past history.  Once I was exposed to the "civil
>war", and what really happened, I was more able to understand why the
>two groups are not the same, and don't aim for exactly the same thing.
>   So, all I'm trying to say is this issue is absolutely germane to
>blind students.  We need to know our history, it helps us decide what
>we're going to do now.  So I ask you, with civility and an open mind,
>why this question is not appropriate for a list of blind students?
>What makes this issue any different from the countless others we've
>debated in the past?  Certainly it matters to us blind students and it
>matters to us a great deal.  I honestly want to know what makes this
>question not fit to be discussed here.
>   Respectfully,
>Kirt
>
>On 6/9/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jorge,
> >   I disagree with you on the last point.  I think Dave was trying to
> > keep the debate which doubtless would have ensued from spamming
> > everyone's inboxes. Although, now that I think about it, that makes me
> > wonder why we've been free to debate ad noseum before about other
> > things.
> >   I've heard people in NFB leadership encourage the study of both NFB
> > and ACB philosophy and history, some have even suggested the book
> > People of Vision, on this list, as reading material for us.  So, no, I
> > don't think they're trying to shelter us or keep us from reading ACB
> > literature on our own time, I think Dave's trying to keep it from this
> > NFB-sponsored public forum.  Do I agree with his decision?  With all
> > cander, no.  But I think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that the
> > NFB leadership is actively trying to keep us from studying the
> > positions and dynamic changing views of the ACB.  If anything, I think
> > they want future leaders to be as informed as possible about who
> > they're dealing with in the political arena.
> >   Respectfully,
> > Kirt
> >
> > On 6/9/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> And--is not the NFB Braille Monitor a copyrighted property?
> >>
> >> Yet we encourage distributing it.
> >>
> >> I'm sure neither the NFB or ACB would have a problem with either being
> >> distributed for free would they?
> >>
> >>
> >> Or, and I say this with respect to everyone involved, is it just "not
> >> good"
> >> for the leadership if we hear the ACB's side?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Jun 9, 2011, at 9:02 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote:
> >>
> >>> David,
> >>>  I do understand the Braille Forum is a copyrighted publication of
> >>> the American Council of the Blind, so there might be legal/ethical
> >>> issues with distributing it outside official ACB channels.  But I am
> >>> slightly curious (and I say this with the utmost respect), would
> >>> circulating an issue of the braille Monitor  describing the split in
> >>> terms favorable to the Federation be "not appropriate for this list?"
> >>>  Sincerely,
> >>> Kirt
> >>>
> >>> On 6/9/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> David:
> >>>> With all due respect, can we not have an open mind?
> >>>>
> >>>> After all: Chris isn't doing any obvious harm by presenting an opposing
> >>>> view
> >>>> is he?
> >>>> Is he telling us to join the ACB?
> >>>> No, and I take that as harmless.
> >>>>
> >>>> Why silence what could possibly be a question that will be brought up
> >>>> by
> >>>> future leaders anyway?
> >>>>
> >>>> Sooner or later we'll have to debate not the marrits or not of the
> >>>> organization, but what we stand fore because as the world evolves, so
> >>>> must
> >>>> our stance on issues--we can never stand solid by one policy and say we
> >>>> will
> >>>> follow it until we die for if the target changes, then so must our
> >>>> aim--and
> >>>> we should be open to anything and consider all as long as our
> >>>> principles
> >>>> of
> >>>> blind independence and first class citizenship are not at risk.
> >>>>
> >>>> You realize its not the ACB that you oppose, its their ideas, and are
> >>>> we
> >>>> not
> >>>> open to discussion on this?
> >>>> Just because we talk doesn't mean we do,
> >>>> are you by any stretch of the imagination suggesting that there is a
> >>>> hidden
> >>>> threat in reading a politically contrary paper?
> >>>>
> >>>> I agree--if Chris were to do it every month I would see why,
> >>>> but just once won't hurt anyone will it?
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Jorge
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Jun 9, 2011, at 4:42 PM, David Andrews wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Chris:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> While what you are trying to do is "well meaning," it is
> >>>>> inappropriate,
> >>>>> and not in step with the purpose of this list.  This is not a debating
> >>>>> society, and nor are we a vehicle to distribute the Braille Forum.
> >>>>> This
> >>>>> list is for NABS and blind students, not to discuss the founding of
> >>>>> the
> >>>>> ACB, or debate how it is different from the NFB.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> David Andrews, List Owner
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> At 02:55 PM 6/9/2011, you wrote:
> >>>>>> Hmm...  that's interesting.  Well, I went out of my comfort zone a
> >>>>>> little
> >>>>>> and signed up to get both the Monitor and the Braille Forum (ACB's
> >>>>>> magazine) by email.  I will attach this month's Braille Forum.
> >>>>>> Although
> >>>>>> a lot of it has to do with the lagistics of their convention in Reno,
> >>>>>> please especially take time to read the President's Message column
> >>>>>> from
> >>>>>> Mitch Pomerantz.  You'll see there what he says about the NFB and Dr.
> >>>>>> TenBroek and Dr.
> >>>>>> Jernigan, while comparing the ACB's founding to that of the United
> >>>>>> States.  What do you all think of this? Am I stirring the pot too
> >>>>>> much?
> >>>>>> Oh heck...  another little debate won't hurt.  * Smile!