[nabs-l] proposition for amendment to constitution

Sat Jun 18 22:45:16 UTC 2011

Jorge,
Just like I didn't do it yesterday I won't give my opinion on this, just because I feel like everything that can be said has already been said. But in any case, the NABS meeting is not being streamed live and, even if it was, what do you think people should do? Is everyone supposed to listen to the meeting live and vote in real time, or are you saying that people should have a couple of extra days to vote after the meeting?
Again, without getting into this, I think it's just unrealistic to have people vote online at this point. This is just not how the organization works or how it's designed to work.
On Jun 18, 2011, at 2:36 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:

> Courtney:
> To answer your last concern,
> yes, I fully intend to apply this in conjunction with any NABS streaming.
> In other words,
> for those who for some reason cannot attend the convention,
> they will be able to vote,
> but still obtain the face-to-face experience you are talking about.
> Granted, its not face-to-face,
> but they will listen to the person speak if NABS streams the meeting,
> not only the writing.
> But that is up to the NABS leadership.
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 18, 2011, at 2:20 PM, Courtney Stover wrote:
> 
>> Hi all:
>> 
>> Many of the cogent points have already been discussed here.  However,
>> there are a couple which I'd like to cover in greater detail.
>> 
>> As someone who attended National convention several years ago because
>> of the extremely hard and diligent work of my chapter President to
>> procure financial aid, I can vouch that what a great deal of the
>> membership are saying about getting some of your expenses covered in
>> this manner is definitely doable, especially if you begin planning in
>> advance.
>> 
>> As evidence of why this measure would be an absolute nightmare I
>> submit exhibit A: the 2000 Presidential election, and Exhibit B: the
>> 2004 Presidential election.
>> 
>> I am not attempting to begin a political discussion here, but due to
>> some voter fraud and logistics issues, those elections were a
>> nightmare no matter which side you were on.
>> 
>> I don't like how this amendment would discourage people from gaining
>> the full experience of the NFB through the communal aspects showcased
>> to such great effect through convention.  If all we have to do to
>> influence policy decisions is press a button, why would we, especially
>> those of us who struggle financially, attempt to find the funds for
>> convention.
>> 
>> In closing, there's a factor I think very few of those in favor of
>> this amendment are considering: stage presence.  We want people who
>> can not only articulately and passionately represent the NFB in
>> writing, but in person, too.  Extremely articulate letter writers may
>> become rather tongue-tied and shy in person...any of you who know me
>> well can vouch for the truth of that one.  So, to my mind, to make the
>> best possible decision, we need written platforms such as those posted
>> to the list over the last few days, and face to face interaction,
>> which we will gain at convention.
>> 
>> Courtney
>> 
>> On 6/18/11, Tina Thomas <tinadt at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> The fact that the NFB has "alot of funds" is not the issue. The reality is
>>> that we all know that National Convention happens once a year around the
>>> July 4TH  holiday and if we  want to attend, we  need to plan well in
>>> advance. Also, if we  need financial assistance then we  need to find out
>>> from our   state affiliate what kind of financial assistance is available.
>>> Tina
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Chris Nusbaum
>>> Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 9:29 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] proposition for amendment to constitution
>>> 
>>> This is the NFB we're talking about here, they've got a lot of funds!
>>> 
>>> Chris
>>> 
>>> "A loss of sight, never a loss of vision!" (Camp Abilities motto) To learn
>>> more about Camp Abilities and find a local camp near you, just click on
>>> this link to their national Web site:
>>> www.campabilities.org.
>>> 
>>> The I C.A.N.  Foundation helps visually impaired youth in Maryland have the
>>> ability to confidently say "I can!" How? Click on this link to learn more
>>> and to contribute:
>>> www.icanfoundation.info.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my BrailleNote
>>> 
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Briley Pollard <brileyp at gmail.com
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> Date sent: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 22:21:04 -0400
>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] proposition for amendment to constitution
>>> 
>>> If you actually read my response, you'd see I addressed the issues bring
>>> up..  Of course I understand the financial burden, which I mentioned.  But
>>> there is a lot of assistance available, and not just from the NFB itself.
>>> If people want to come, funding can be found.  I'm in no way suggesting
>>> that people who can't attend aren't federationists or don't care about the
>>> organization.  But proxy voting is not allowed for some very good reasons.
>>> Perhaps there could be an Absent-T system instituted similar to what the
>>> government has for legitimate circumstances.
>>> But, I'm not sure we as an organization have the funds or the resources
>>> necessary to take on that undertaking.  It is an idea though.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Briley
>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 10:14 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>>> 
>>> Right,
>>> but tell me,
>>> does everyone have the money to spend around $1,00 on convention costs?
>>> 
>>> You specially as a student should know that.
>>> 
>>> And as for me,
>>> I have so far been a strong supporter of the federation, yet only have
>>> gone to one national convention.
>>> So if I don't show up this year are you suggesting that I am not a "true
>>> federationist?" Because that's where your  language is pointing towards.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 10:04 PM, Briley Pollard wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'm hesitant to even weigh in on this debate since most relevant arguments
>>> have already been made.  However, it is important to note that being
>>> present at the Nabs meeting every year indicates a certain amount of
>>> investment in the organization.  I know convention is expensive, but there
>>> are multiple ways to procure funding outside of paying for everything
>>> yourself.  I know that as students we don't have much expendable income.
>>> However, the yearly meeting of the organization as a whole and the division
>>> shows the membership and is a chance for us as members to make our wants
>>> and needs known by how we vote.  If one cares enough about the organization
>>> to make that kind of time investment, then one has earned that right to
>>> participate in organizational positions and decisions.
>>> 
>>> Best,
>>> Briley
>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 9:52 PM, T.  Joseph Carter wrote:
>>> 
>>> Right, and I will be sure to cast my vote for as many people whose names I
>>> happen to know as possible.  No, you뭗 need to manage passwords and data
>>> security.  There would be issues such as validity and integrity of the
>>> ballot (who뭩 observing to ensure the votes are not tampered with, etc.?)
>>> 
>>> What you are looking for is not proxy voting, but to change NABS elections
>>> from being held at convention to being held online.
>>> That means the elections process would need to happen (along with any
>>> runoffs and revotes) prior to convention so that the newly elected board
>>> members can meet with the old and arrange the transition plan as best they
>>> can.
>>> 
>>> If elections, why not resolutions and other business as well?
>>> Why would we then send delegates from the states to vote?  This would be a
>>> fundamental change to the organization as a whole, and one that could be
>>> exploited by those who have an axe to grind against the NFB.  Without
>>> becoming too confrontational, suffice it to say that such individuals exist.
>>> 
>>> It would also degrade our national convention from a policy-making body to
>>> the status of a trade show for blind ghetto tech.  I뭢 not sure you뭨e
>>> going to find support for that amongst Federationists at large뾭articularly
>>> since in order to do so you must first convince those Federationists who
>>> will be attending Convention because it is a policy-making body they wish
>>> to be part of that it should no longer be so.
>>> 
>>> You would not have my support, even though I have only been to two non-
>>> consecutive conventions now, because I wouldn뭪 want to see what naturally
>>> comes from the application of your suggestion.
>>> To me, going to convention is ABOUT something, whether I can attend or not.
>>> I for one am not willing to give that up.
>>> 
>>> That said, though I may attend the NABS meeting if I am not needed
>>> elsewhere, I will not be voting.  I am not a student anymore, as I said,
>>> and NABS policy should IMO be set by those who are.
>>> 
>>> Joseph
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:54:10PM -0400, Jorge Paez wrote:
>>> So would I.
>>> 
>>> And, security measures such as comparing someone's name against a database
>>> can easily be developed as well with some php.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 12:41 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote:
>>> 
>>> A web based system could easily be developed, that's for sure.
>>> I would be willing to help with that.
>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 12:32 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>>> 
>>> Marsha:
>>> This is only theory to be aprooved--the web team would have to
>>> be in charge of developing some authentication method.
>>> I'm sure we could make sure only absent people vote in some way
>>> such as having to enter with your name, and the site
>>> disqualifying you when you enter your vote if it sees that you're
>>> present.
>>> This is where the database of contact information would come in
>>> handy.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Jun 17, 2011, at 12:07 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote:
>>> 
>>> In theory this is a good suggestion.  But lets be realistic
>>> here.  This would
>>> be a complicated process of tallying the votes.  If the students
>>> were to do
>>> this, the general convention would want this too.  Its sad that
>>> those who
>>> can't be there can't vote, but that is where those who can't be
>>> there,
>>> should get involved to elect those who they feel would do the
>>> best job
>>> possible.
>>> 
>>> Say if you were to have a online way to take votes, how are you
>>> going to
>>> distinguish from those who are really not going to those who are
>>> going to
>>> convention but who want to vote and add votes to a particular
>>> person
>>> running.
>>> 
>>> Now correct me someone if I am wrong, isn't it true that you can
>>> run, not
>>> necessarily be there, and be elected? Or must you be present?
>>> Different
>>> divisions do this differently.
>>> 
>>> Marsha
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>>> Of Jorge Paez
>>> Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 11:57 AM
>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>>> Subject: [nabs-l] proposition for amendment to constitution
>>> 
>>> Hello all:
>>> I want to propose the following amendment to the constitution,
>>> to article
>>> IV.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Voting
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Due to the fact that there are people who will not be present at
>>> the
>>> convention due to issues beyond the membership's control, but
>>> who have paid
>>> dues and do therefore, retain their right to vote, the NATIONAL
>>> ASSOCIATION
>>> OF THE BLIND shall henceforth recognize
>>> these members by allowing them to vote, in such methods as are
>>> legal and of
>>> good practice, in all elections pertaining to the business of
>>> this
>>> organization.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---
>>> 
>>> 
>>> end of amendment.
>>> 
>>> The defense I put forth for this amendment is simple: if we are
>>> to be a
>>> democratic organization, and if we are truly the "voice of the
>>> Nation's
>>> blind" we must realize there are students who will not be able
>>> to attend but
>>> who have paid dues, and these students must be recognized and
>>> given the
>>> chance to vote in elections.  If not, we are violating our own
>>> constitution
>>> as article IV is doing as of this writing, by eliminating those
>>> members who
>>> cannot attend convention, and therein setting only a certain
>>> portion of the
>>> student membership to vote.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Jorge
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