[nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment

Sun Jun 19 17:40:15 UTC 2011

Peter,
  Reinventing the wheel is sometimes good.  If we hadn't reinvented
the wheel, black people wouldn't be voting.  If we hadn't reinvented
the wheel, the NFB wouldn't be around.  Without us reinventing the
wheel, there would be no blind driver challenge, whatever your
personal opinion a bout that may be.  I say sometimes the wheel needs
to be reinvented-even perfectly good systems can be made better.  A
counting procedure is better than a voice vote, IMHO, at least for a
devision the size of NABS.  I wouldn't say it would be better for the
NFB as a whole but hey, aren't devisions acorded to run their
elections the way that works best for them?
  Best,
Kirt

On 6/19/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
> Jorge,
>   I admit our current system is *not* fool proof.  A non-member can
> come to national convention, pay the dues, register to vote, and
> influence the election.  But, in a funny way, I'd rather have that
> kind of non-member, who is willing to put in the week of time, make
> the illegal vote over the non-member you can just give $5 to so they
> can register and become a member online.
>   Just my thoughts,
> Kirt
>
> On 6/19/11, Peter Donahue <pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com> wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>>     The vast majority of our local chapters and affiliates conduct fare
>> elections without resorting to junk like this. Angela Wolfe cautioned
>> NABS
>> on the use of cards in 2009. I know because I was there and have the
>> recording of her remarks. It's on the NABS Web Site for all to hear.
>> Every
>> time I've heard a card/ballot system of this kind tried it does nothing
>> but
>> slow down the election process and make the procedure cumbersome and more
>> of
>> a hassle than need be. If you want your elections to run more smoothly
>> get
>> rid of the cards and use the good old voice vote system like our other
>> affiliates use. There's little if any concern about individuals voting
>> when
>> they shouldn't. Stick with what works and quit trying to reinvent the
>> wheel.
>>
>>     Our national constitution got us this far so why monkey with
>> something
>> that works and has proven its weight in gold? You have more important
>> things
>> to do than to implement ridiculous election procedures and monkeying with
>> your constitution every time you turn around. JMO.
>>
>> Peter Donahue
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Arielle Silverman" <nabs.president at gmail.com>
>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> Sent: Sunday, June 19, 2011 10:50 AM
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] draft 2 - complete section with amendment
>>
>>
>> Hi George,
>> That's a good question. When people come to the NABS business meeting
>> and  pay their dues, they are given a set of ballots. Only people who
>> stop by the registration table and give our treasurer their $5 get
>> ballots. I think this is a pretty good way of ensuring that only paid
>> members vote.
>> Sure, we can allow people to pay throughout the year and create a
>> tracking system. I think that is a good idea. However, once they've
>> paid, if they want to vote online, how do we prove they've paid
>> beforehand?
>> It might work if people pay their $5 online right before the election.
>> But even then, I worry about hackers and other fancy computer gimmicks
>> that might game the system.
>> Arielle
>>
>> On 6/19/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Arielle:
>>> With all due respect,
>>> how would we be able to identify current members without any problem?
>>>
>>> That is to say,
>>> do we keep some kind of database of who is *currently* on NABS?
>>> The reason I'm asking is because I don't see how NABS keeps track of
>>> current
>>> membership to begin with,  let alone new members.
>>>
>>> Are you saying you're opposed to such an amendment because it would mean
>>> creating a tracking system for the entire membership?
>>>
>>> And if so, wouldn't this help NABS in the long run?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Jorge
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 19, 2011, at 1:52 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Excellent point, Kurt. I have heard of cases at state conventions
>>>> where candidates brought all  their friends who were not NFB members
>>>> on the day of the election to pay their dues and vote in person. Sure,
>>>> this could happen at a national convention, but it seems less likely,
>>>> and much more likely if absentee voting were allowed. The problem
>>>> could be minimized by requiring payment of dues a month or so in
>>>> advance of the election. But even then, how could we verify payment
>>>> status virtually? The U.S. government allows mail-in voting, but in
>>>> that case candidates are clearly identified in advance. In short, even
>>>> if this amendment were permissible and philosophically desirable, our
>>>> election procedures, from nomination of candidates to membership
>>>> verification, would have to be radically modified. I'm not opposed to
>>>> change, but I question whether the dramatic investment of effort
>>>> required is worth the benefit of allowing a few more people to vote.
>>>> As Darian emphasized, there are many, many other ways we can be using
>>>> our energy and exercising our membership rights.
>>>> Respectfully,
>>>> Arielle
>>>>
>>>> On 6/18/11, Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>  You're putting this out in the open for public scrutiny so I'm going
>>>>> to be honest.  I really, really don't like the idea-it opens up all
>>>>> sorts of cans of worms that don't seem right to me.  Consider the
>>>>> following.
>>>>>  We probably won't know all the candidates in the election *until*
>>>>> the actual business meeting.  There could be someone who, for whatever
>>>>> reason, hasn't announced their candidacy for office on the list.  I
>>>>> think it's only fair that anyone who's even considering voting in the
>>>>> election knows who all candidates are and has the opportunity to
>>>>> listen to each introduction speech (even if it's only 30 seconds
>>>>> long), before they cast their ballot.  That's only fair to all the
>>>>> candidates involved.  I would consider supporting an idea that allows
>>>>> those due-paying members in virtual attendance (through an official
>>>>> NABS skype call or the like) the opportunity to vote.  Beyond that, I
>>>>> don't think you have much of a case.
>>>>>  Also, think about this.  Let's say you, hypothetically, were running
>>>>> for NABS president.  You get a bunch of your blind friends who aren't
>>>>> going to convention, who may or may not want anything to do with the
>>>>> Federation, and have them pay $5 so they're voting members.  I'm not
>>>>> saying you'd do such a thing, I'm just saying you're leaving that kind
>>>>> of possibility open.  No matter how secure the voting method is, that
>>>>> makes this something that could happen.  Do other organizations open
>>>>> that door?  Sure.  Should we?  I say no.
>>>>>  But the spirit behind the idea isn't bad.  I think, personally, if
>>>>> we could ensure some sort of secure method for virtual attendance at
>>>>> the meeting for those due-paying members who can't make convention,
>>>>> I'd be all for allowing them to vote.  Maybe set up a shoutcast server
>>>>> streaming the meeting, and only give the password to those due-paying
>>>>> members who request it?  Make a conference call and only give the
>>>>> calling info/access code for those due-paying members who ask for it?
>>>>> If we instituted a system like that, I don't see why we couldn't allow
>>>>> that sort of absentee voting, but only for those who are in virtual
>>>>> attendance at the NABS business meeting and not for anyone else.  Am I
>>>>> making any sense?  Is that a possibility?
>>>>>  All the best,
>>>>> Kirt
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/18/11, Jorge Paez <computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Arielle:
>>>>>> Not exactly,
>>>>>> I'm going to continue to edit the amendment myself and should be able
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> submit it before July second.
>>>>>> I posted this version so that people could see my amendment in light
>>>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> entire section.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 18, 2011, at 7:59 PM, Arielle Silverman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jorge,
>>>>>>> Is this the final version you would like read at the NABS meeting
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> year? Or, would you like to wait until 2012 when you will be at
>>>>>>> convention yourself and can present and defend it?
>>>>>>> If you want it read in 2011 and you will not be at convention, you
>>>>>>> will need to find someone else who will be there to read and defend
>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>> Arielle
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/17/11, Joseph C. Lininger <jbahm at pcdesk.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>> George,
>>>>>>>> I hate to be a killjoy on you, but you're probably wasting your
>>>>>>>> time
>>>>>>>> with this. The organization isn't going to change this particular
>>>>>>>> policy, no matter how many people would like to see it happen. For
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> record, I'm with you on this one, but I'm also no longer a
>>>>>>>> federationest
>>>>>>>> and haven't been for some years now. Too many differences of
>>>>>>>> opinion.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> "All models are wrong, but some are useful." George E. P. Box
>>>>>>>> Joseph C. Lininger, <jbahm at pcdesk.net>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>>>>> Email:
>>>>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>>>>> Website:
>>>>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>>> nabs-l:
>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Arielle Silverman
>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>>>> Email:
>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>>>> Website:
>>>> www.nabslink.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>>> nabs-l:
>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> nabs-l mailing list
>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>>> nabs-l:
>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Arielle Silverman
>> President, National Association of Blind Students
>> Phone:  602-502-2255
>> Email:
>> nabs.president at gmail.com
>> Website:
>> www.nabslink.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> nabs-l mailing list
>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org
>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for
>> nabs-l:
>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com
>>
>