[nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes interview, Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed. June 22, 8:00 pm EDT

Kirt Manwaring kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
Thu Jun 23 01:31:07 UTC 2011


Someone can help me here, but looktell's pretty much instantaneous and
I think iNote's about 10 seconds or so.

On 6/22/11, Josh Gregory <joshkart12 at gmail.com> wrote:
> What is the time difference for each ap?
>
> sent from my Apex
> Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com
>
>  ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
> <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Date sent: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:03:15 -0600
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
> interview,Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed.  June
> 22, 8:00 pm EDT
>
> No.  When looktell announces the bill, it's certain.  Probably
> even
> more so than it would be with a picture.
>
> On 6/22/11, Josh Gregory <joshkart12 at gmail.com> wrote:
>  But, wouldn't having a picture be better because it could be
>  certain of what the bill was?
>
>  sent from my Apex
>  Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com
>
>   ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>  To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>  <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>  Date sent: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 18:43:56 -0600
>  Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
>  interview,Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed.  June
>  22, 8:00 pm EDT
>
>  Josh,
>    That's right-excpet the 4th generation Touch has a camera on
>  the
>  front and the back so it's more convenient to use the back, at
>  least
>  that's what I've found.  Looktell will just read out the
>  denomination,
>  iNote has to take a picture and takes longer.
>
>  On 6/22/11, Josh Gregory <joshkart12 at gmail.com> wrote:
>   Explain how each works.  This is why I say it could get
>  offtopic.
>     I know the 4th generation IPod touch has a front-facing
>  camera.
>   So, I assume one would simply place the bill under the camera
>  and
>   the app would tell you what denomination it was?
>   Best,
>   Josh
>
>   sent from my Apex
>   Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com
>
>    ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>   To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>   <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>   Date sent: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 18:26:52 -0600
>   Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
>   interview,Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed.  June
>   22, 8:00 pm EDT
>
>   Na, if we're talking about solutions for accessible currencyk,
>   we're
>   still on topic.  If you're using an iOS device, you can get
>  Inote
>   which is free or pay 2 dollars and get looktell money reader
>   which is
>   easier to use.
>
>   On 6/22/11, Josh Gregory <joshkart12 at gmail.com> wrote:
>    Can you explain offlist, please? I'm afraid we might be
> getting
>    too offtopic if we keep it on.
>    Best,
>    Josh
>
>    sent from my Apex
>    Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>    From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>    To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>    <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>    Date sent: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 17:59:55 -0600
>    Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
>    interview,Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed.  June
>    22, 8:00 pm EDT
>
>    Yeah, but looktell is better.
>
>    On 6/22/11, Josh Gregory <joshkart12 at gmail.com> wrote:
>     Oh, so that's the one I heard about.  The pay one, that is.
>  So
>     EyeNote's free.  Thanks Jessica!
>     Best,
>     Josh
>
>     sent from my Apex
>     Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com
>
>      ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Jessica <jessmonsilva2003 at sbcglobal.net
>     To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>     <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>     Date sent: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:36:04 -0700
>     Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
>     interview,Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed.
> June
>     22, 8:00 pm EDT
>
>     Josh, eyeNote is free.  The other I speak of is looktell
> money
>     reader.  It is 2 dollars.
>
>     Sent from my iPhone
>
>     On Jun 22, 2011, at 3:07 PM, Josh Gregory
>  <joshkart12 at gmail.com
>     wrote:
>
>      Hi, Jessica.  There's another one? EyeNote is what I was
>    talking
>     about, but I didn't know there was another one.  Do you by
> any
>     chance know it's name?
>      Best,
>      Josh
>      PS: Eyenote's free? Thought you had to pay for it.  Well, we
>     learn something new every day.  (smile)
>
>      sent from my Apex
>      Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com
>
>      ----- Original Message -----
>      From: Jessica Silva <jessmonsilva2003 at sbcglobal.net
>      To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>      Date sent: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 14:59:27 -0700 (PDT)
>      Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
>     interview,Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed.
> June
>     22, 8:00 pm EDT
>
>      actually there is the one he speaks of but also there is the
>    one
>     made by the US treasury.  it's called eyeNote and it's free.
>
>      On Wed Jun 22nd, 2011 3:39 PM MDT Josh Gregory wrote:
>
>      They've got an ap to help with identifying money for I O S
>     devices, that was mentioned on this list before I think.  I
>   have
>     heard it's only 2 bucks but that it works well.  It might be
>  in
>     the ap store, but not having a device to check on, I'm not
>   sure.
>      Best,
>      Josh
>
>      sent from my Apex
>      Email: joshkart12 at gmail.com
>
>      ----- Original Message -----
>      From: "Humberto Avila" <avila.bert.humberto2 at gmail.com
>      To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'"
>     <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>      Date sent: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 14:11:10 -0700
>      Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
>     interview,Ride into History, Race for Independence, Wed.
> June
>     22, 8:00 pm EDT
>
>      Hello, but what happens if I have a bill in my hand and I
>  want
>     to know what
>      it is, but there is not a single sighted soul to tell me
> what
>    it
>     is? I know
>      is a free alternative but, is it truly worth it? And, what
> if
>     that sighted
>      person lies about the amount of money that is on the bill?
>      I would probably support ideas like the KNFB reader and the
>     iBill identifier
>      if they were even cheaper.  If they were so, I would buy one
>   or
>     the other,
>      but so far, I can not afford either one.
>
>      -----Original Message-----
>      From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org
>     [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
>      Of Kirt Manwaring
>      Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:01 PM
>      To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
>      Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
>     interview, Ride
>      into History, Race for Independence, Wed.  June 22, 8:00 pm
>   EDT
>
>      Joshua,
>      Valid points.  I've got a solution for you that doesn't cost
>  a
>      thing.  Get a sighted person you trust to tell you what your
>     bills are
>      when you get them, and fold them so you can identify them in
>    the
>      future.  Inconvenient, maybe...but hey, if we're going to
> fit
>    in
>     to
>      the world we've got to put up with some annoyances.
>      BTW, what's wrong with a 20 cell display?  Not ideal maybe
>   but,
>     hey,
>      maybe a rehab counselor would be more willing to get
>  something
>     with
>      that much of a price reduction as compared to a 40 cell.  I
>    used
>     a
>      20-cell PAC mate all through High School, an 18-cell Apex
> for
>    my
>     first
>      year of college, and the shorter displays work fine.
>      Best,
>      Kirt
>
>      On 6/22/11, Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
>     wrote:
>      This is what Allan Ramos told me.
>      He was a trainee at LWSB, when I was there.
>      He's a member of the CCB, (California Council of the Blind,)
>     (not to
>      be confused with Colorado Center for the Blind.)
>      I'm going on what he said.
>      Paper currency in the US, started with Andrew Jackson.
>      Glenn Beck talks about this in great deal, in his book,
>     "Growth."
>      I've heard, that the debit cards are an alternative, but we
>     don't have
>      such a system, that is accessible to us, in my small town.
>      It's either what I suggested, or we should ask the NFB to
>  push
>     the
>      companies that make accessible technologies, to make their
>     technology
>      affordable for all blind citizens, that need it.
>      That's my problem with the Blind Driver Challenge, (for
>     example.)
>      They will make this car, but they have to charge an obseen
>     amount of
>      money, for it.
>      I'm not going to be able to afford it.
>      I can't afford a Pac Mate, with a 32 cell Braille display,
>  and
>     my
>      state won't purchase it, for my schooling.
>      I'm bringing this up, because, (back to the currency,) the
>    IBill
>     costs
>      $100.
>      The IBill, (I felt of one at convention last year,) is as
>   small
>     as a
>      giga-pet.
>      I got one of those, for $5, when I was a child!
>      Why would I pay $100 for something that small?
>      Make it affordable!
>      Blessings, Joshua
>
>      On 6/22/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com> wrote:
>      Josh,
>      Your idea to have only coins is a good idea, but not
>   realistic.
>     Can you
>      see
>      a 50 dollar coin or even 20 dollar coin? Paper currency has
>    been
>     and will
>      always be a fabric of this country as it is in every
> country.
>     Which
>      country
>      has only coins and know paper currency?
>      I do not believe, but I could be wrong and please correct
> me,
>     but I do
>      not
>      think that ACB is advocating only braille notes.  From my
>     understanding
>      they
>      have been advocating a form of paper currency which is
>     accessible  and
>      afordable.  Ovisily braille is not the most afordable means
>  to
>     make paper
>      currency accessible.
>
>      Anmol
>      I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me
>    sad.
>     Perhaps
>      there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague,
>     like a
>      breeze
>      among flowers.
>      Hellen Keller
>
>
>      --- On Wed, 6/22/11, Joshua Lester
>     <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
>      wrote:
>
>      From: Joshua Lester <jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu
>      Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw Our Eyes
>     interview,
>      Ride
>      into History, Race for Independence, Wed.  June 22, 8:00 pm
>   EDT
>      To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>      <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>      Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 1:51 PM
>      Anmol, it's amazing that you bring up
>      accessible currency.
>      What the ACB wants, is Brailled currency.
>      That isn't going to work.
>      I have the answer to the problem.
>      First of all, it's political.
>      I'm tired of people saying that the conservatives aren't on
>      the side
>      of the blind.
>      When it comes to currency, they are.
>      Remember, when Reagan mentioned a return to the gold
>      standard?
>      Coins are the answer to the problem.
>      We can identify the coins, by their texture.
>      We can't do this with paper currency.
>      That solves the problems with our currency.
>      This would help everyone, including us.
>      #1.  You can't inflate, or deflate coins.
>      #2.  You can't counterfeit coins.
>      #3, (Here's the thing that will help blind people,) We can
>      identify
>      coins by their texture.
>      Would there have to be alot of changes made?
>      Yes, but is it worth it?
>      Yes!
>      Blessings, Joshua
>
>      On 6/22/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com
>      wrote:
>      Jessica,
>      Good point.  In addition, I would much rather a blind
>      person to feel mobil
>      even if they don't have good mobility skills and
>      frankly I would rather have
>      audible street lights then to see a blind person get
>      killed because they
>      could not figure out how the traffic goes.
>      Anmol
>      I seldom think about my limitations, and they never
>      make me sad.  Perhaps
>      there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is
>      vague, like a breeze
>      among flowers.
>      Hellen Keller
>
>
>      --- On Wed, 6/22/11, Jessica <jessmonsilva2003 at sbcglobal.net
>      wrote:
>
>      From: Jessica <jessmonsilva2003 at sbcglobal.net
>      Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw
>      Our Eyes interview, Ride
>      into History, Race for Independence, Wed.  June 22,
>      8:00 pm EDT
>      To: "National Association of Blind Students
>      mailing list"
>      <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>      Date: Wednesday, June 22, 2011, 1:01 PM
>      There are certain types of
>      intersections where no matter how long you stand
>      there and
>      listen to traffic you will never hear a good cycle
>      so in
>      those cases I actually support aps.  Just keep that
>      in mind
>      when someone talks about every intersection being
>      crossable
>      by listening to traffic.
>
>      Sent from my iPhone
>
>      On Jun 22, 2011, at 9:57 AM, Kirt Manwaring
>      <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>      wrote:
>
>      Anmol,
>      It's a nice thought.  Maybe it'll
>      be
>      possible, some day.  Never say
>      never, ri9ght?
>      But here's the thing.  The two
>      organizations have evolved two
>      separate philosophies and mindsets.  I'm
>      doing
>      something really bad
>      and generalizing.  If anyone who knows
>      more than
>      I do wants to correct
>      me here, feel free.
>      The stance the ACB seems to take more
>      often than
>      not is to make the
>      environment more accessible for us.
>      This is
>      evidenced by their
>      support for audible street signals (which
>      make a lot
>      of sense to me,
>      I'm not really convinced one way or the other
>      on that
>      one yet),
>      tactile currency, descriptive movies, the
>      provisions
>      in the ADA to
>      make ATMs accessible, the 21st century
>      communications
>      act, their
>      support for Randolph-Shepherd, universal
>      design in
>      technology, etc.
>      They also use lots of their resources to
>      fight
>      descrimination, at
>      least it seems that way to me.
>      The NFB, on the other hand, seems to
>      more often
>      than not advocate us
>      adapting to the environment.  This is
>      evidenced
>      by the strict
>      standards of training centers, pushing
>      braille,
>      opposition to the
>      tactile currency idea, advocacy of relying on
>      traffic
>      rather than
>      audible signals (which makes a lot of sense
>      to me),
>      our philosophy
>      that with the right training and opportunity
>      we can
>      compete on an
>      equal footing, the idea of the blind driver
>      challenge,
>      etc.  Of course
>      the NFB sometimes pushes making changes in
>      the
>      environment (technology
>      bill of rights, Help America Vote Act, and
>      the ADA
>      which we also
>      supported), and the ACB does advocate for
>      quality
>      independence
>      training/O&M.  But, those are the
>      rough
>      philosophies of the two
>      organizations, if we're going by their
>      records.
>      Is the ACB wrong?
>      No, I don't think so, but the NFB is more of
>      a fit
>      with my vision of
>      blindness.  I just think thee two
>      separate
>      methodoligies willkeep us
>      from ever uniting as one group...and that's
>      ok.
>      We all have the
>      right, even the obligation to advocate for
>      ourselves
>      and those we
>      represent.  The ACB does it their way,
>      we do it
>      ours.  Sometimes there
>      is overlap, lots of times our philosophies
>      take us in
>      different
>      directions and put us on opposite sides of
>      important
>      issues.  When our
>      aims are the same (or similar), we need to
>      work
>      together and present a
>      united front.  When we are at odds
>      (which we
>      often are, the two
>      organizations really are very different), we
>      both have
>      the right to
>      push our separate agendas and attempt to get
>      our
>      policies implimented.
>      Sometimes they win, sometimes we win, that's
>      politics.  We don't have
>      to be bitter about it and, on the personal
>      level, we
>      can still be good
>      friends even when our politics are at odds.
>      Just my thoughts,
>      Kirt
>
>      On 6/22/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com
>      wrote:
>      Kirt,
>      You bring some vary valid points, and yes
>      we have
>      beaten the
>      democrats/republicans analogy  to
>      death but
>      it keeps coming up as a
>      comparison, so I will just say one thing
>      about
>      this.  I may have already said
>      this before on the list, but please
>      furgive me if
>      I have.  The blind
>      community is a to small of a community to
>      be
>      divided on partizen lines like
>      democrats and republicans, and our
>      challenges are
>      to great to be divided
>      like democrats and republicans.  Sure
>      there will be
>      differences between
>      members of the ACB and members of the NFB
>      on how
>      business should be
>      conducted, but honestly there differences
>      between
>      members of each
>      organization on how their organization
>      should do
>      business.
>      True there were disagreement on how
>      business
>      should and leadership issues
>      causing the split between the NFB and
>      ACB, I
>      consider the leadership issues
>      to be pitty differences.  Often when one
>      candidate
>      loses, they and their
>      supporters go and form their on
>      organization or
>      chapter.  This happened at my
>      local NFB chapter and as a result we have
>      two NFB
>      chapters in a small town.
>      Now some may consider this to be a good
>      thing, but
>      think about how much more
>      we can achieve if we were one NFB chapter
>      in
>      Fayetteville in recruiting,
>      fund raising and my volunteers for
>      events.  In
>      addition, these types of
>      childish arguements causes many blind
>      people who
>      otherwise may be involved
>      in a blind organization to be a "fense
>      sitters".
>      Now using this analogy  to
>      NFB ACB, ACB does not have near the funds
>      that NFB
>      has, but they are not
>      poor eather.  Their attendence is not as
>      large at
>      the conventions, but it is
>      not small eather.  Think if both of these
>      organizations were together how
>      much more money we would have to do
>      policy that
>      each organization does or
>      the advocacy work that each
>      organization
>      does, and think about how much
>      larger the convention would be.  We would
>      pack two
>      hotels full or near full.
>      In addition, think about how much venders
>      would be
>      giving out in prizes
>      because now insteading having to spend
>      money to
>      send their workers to two
>      convention, they will only have to send
>      their
>      workers to one convention.  In
>      addition, most venders give out big
>      prizes at each
>      convention and if there
>      was only one convention, they can give
>      two
>      prizes.
>      However, you are right in that
>      realistically the
>      two organizations will not
>      merge any time soon.
>
>      best wishes,
>      Anmol
>      I seldom think about my limitations, and
>      they
>      never make me sad.  Perhaps
>      there is just a touch of yearning at
>      times; but it
>      is vague, like a breeze
>      among flowers.
>      Hellen Keller
>
>
>      --- On Tue, 6/21/11, Kirt Manwaring
>      <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>      wrote:
>
>      From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>      Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
>      [Nfbnet-members-list]
>      Threw Our Eyes interview, Ride
>      into History, Race for Independence,
>      Wed.  June
>      22, 8:00 pm EDT
>      To: "National Association of Blind
>      Students
>      mailing list"
>      <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>      Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2011, 2:51
>      PM
>      Anmol,
>      I don't really see a
>      merger
>      happening any time soon,
>      nor would I
>      want it to.  We've all beaten
>      the
>      democrat/republican
>      analogy to
>      death...but imagine Barack Obama and
>      Mitt
>      Romney in the
>      same political
>      party.  It just wouldn't work.
>      There are huge
>      differences.  It
>      doesn't make the NFB better for
>      everyone, but
>      it makes the
>      NFB better
>      for me.  I have lots of respect
>      for my
>      friends in the
>      ACB who stand up
>      and fight for their agenda.
>      Lots of the
>      times, it's
>      the same as mine.
>      When it's not, we can talk without
>      being
>      jackasses to each
>      other and,
>      in a lot of cases, the disagreement
>      actually
>      strengthens
>      our
>      friendship.
>      I say diversity is
>      good,
>      competition is good, we
>      need a free market
>      of ideas.  I respect ACB and the
>      sincere
>      people there
>      trying to make
>      the lives of blind people
>      better.  I
>      happen to find
>      the Federation
>      philosophy and method more meaningful
>      for
>      me.  I want
>      to understand
>      the split.  From the little bit
>      of
>      studying I've done,
>      I don't really
>      think it was petty personal
>      differences but
>      rather
>      differing
>      philosophies about methodology and
>      leadership
>      that drove
>      the two
>      groups to separate.  We can be
>      different
>      without being
>      petty.  We can
>      disagree without being bigots.
>      When our
>      two
>      organizations come down
>      on opposite sides of important
>      issues, as we
>      often do, we
>      need not be
>      arrogant or self-rightious because we
>      think
>      we're
>      right.  The fact is,
>      we disagree.  And I think the
>      disagreements are too
>      central to our
>      respective organizations for us to
>      ever become
>      one.
>      But that doesn't
>      mean we can't be friends, especially
>      on a
>      personal level.
>      Best,
>      Kirt
>
>      On 6/21/11, Anmol Bhatia <anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com
>      wrote:
>      Kirt,
>      You are bringing up some vary
>      good
>      points...
>      Understanding the history of
>      the NFB and ACB is an import part
>      in the
>      history in
>      the blind movement and
>      an important part in the history
>      of two
>      organizations.
>      Frankly in it is just
>      my oppinion both organizations
>      bring value
>      and have
>      and continue to make a
>      difference for blind people
>      across America
>      on a daily
>      bases.  It is a shame
>      that this split happened and just
>      maybe
>      the next
>      generation of blind
>      individuals our generation or
>      those who
>      are younger
>      then can bring the two
>      organizations together once
>      again.  Now
>      this is just my
>      translation and my
>      oppinion, but  it seems to
>      me that
>      the NFB ACB
>      split happened over pitty
>      differences and two individuals
>      with
>      different ideas
>      fighting for power.  It
>      seems to me that the hate the
>      two
>      organizations have
>      towards each other is
>      not as strong amongest this
>      generation.
>      Infact many
>      members of NABS of ACB
>      and NABS of NFB are friends in
>      life and
>      attack on the
>      other organization is
>      usually not
>      allow on each
>      organization's mailing
>      list.
>      Dave, you are right that ACB does
>      not have
>      the same
>      amount of people
>      attending its' convention, but
>      their
>      attendence is not
>      small eather.  I would
>      guess 1500 attend the ACB
>      convention and
>      all the major
>      venders who attend
>      the NFB convention attend the
>      ACB
>      convention.  There
>      are also quite a few
>      young people who attend the ACB
>      convention.
>      Yes ACB does its' business
>      different then
>      NFB, but
>      thats why they are a
>      different organization.  However,
>      this does
>      not make
>      them any worse or better
>      then the NFB.
>      Just my thoughts and it would be
>      great if
>      we keep the
>      attacks on each
>      organization to as less as
>      possible.
>
>      Anmol
>
>
>      I seldom think about my
>      limitations, and
>      they never
>      make me sad.  Perhaps
>      there is just a touch of yearning
>      at
>      times; but it is
>      vague, like a breeze
>      among flowers.
>      Hellen Keller
>
>
>      --- On Tue, 6/21/11, Kirt
>      Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>      wrote:
>
>      From: Kirt Manwaring <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>      Subject: Re: [nabs-l]
>      [Nfbnet-members-list] Threw
>      Our Eyes interview, Ride
>      into History, Race for
>      Independence,
>      Wed.  June 22,
>      8:00 pm EDT
>      To: "National Association of
>      Blind
>      Students
>      mailing list"
>      <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>      Date: Tuesday, June 21, 2011,
>      12:25
>      PM
>      Dave,
>      How long ago
>      was
>      this?  Things could've
>      changed
>      since you last went
>      if it's been a while, maybe?
>      And, with respect,
>      this
>      is a big deal to
>      a lot of us.  I know for
>      me it's
>      a lot more than
>      a
>      "small
>      consideration", I like to
>      know the
>      past as much as
>      I can
>      because it
>      shaped the here and
>      now.  I can
>      read the books
>      put out
>      by each
>      organization-they probably
>      both have
>      lots of the
>      truth
>      intermingled
>      with their respective
>      agendas.
>      But nothing
>      beats
>      talking to people
>      who have studied the issues
>      or,
>      preferably, people
>      who were
>      actually
>      there.
>      All the
>      best,
>      Kirt
>
>      On 6/21/11, David Andrews
>      <dandrews at visi.com
>      wrote:
>      The two biggest things I
>      noticed
>      at an ACB
>      national
>      convention were
>      that the crowd was
>      considerably
>      smaller than
>      that at a
>      NFB convention
>      -- less exhibits etc.
>      too.
>      The second
>      things was
>      that there were few
>      young persons -- some
>      but
>      noticeably not
>      very
>      many.  One of the major
>      things that the ACB has
>      pushed in
>      the past is
>      that it
>      is different
>      from the NFB, it does
>      things
>      differently
>      etc.
>      This doesn't really
>      matter to younger people
>      though,
>      so they have
>      little
>      reason to join, so
>      don't.
>
>      You guys can spend lots
>      of time on
>      the
>      history, and
>      differences if
>      you want -- but what is
>      the
>      point.  It
>      happened,
>      it is over with and
>      done.  Yes we can
>      and should
>      learn from our
>      history, but it is just
>      one small consideration.
>
>      Dave
>
>      At 11:32 AM 6/20/2011,
>      you wrote:
>      Dave,
>       I do see
>      your
>      point.  Those
>      alive at the time are not,
>      and will
>      probabluy never be
>      friends.  Heck,
>      getting
>      them to actually talk in
>      peace would be the
>      achievement
>      of the
>      century!   if
>      such a
>      call were
>      to hypothetically
>      happen, how
>      could we
>      keep it from
>      opening old wounds
>      and stoking old
>      fires?
>       Best,
>      Kirt
>
>      On 6/20/11, Chris
>      Nusbaum
>      <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
>      wrote:
>      Dave,
>
>      Our joint
>      conference call
>      isn't
>      associated
>      whatsoever with the
>      proposition of a
>      change in
>      the NFB
>      bylaw.  If I'm setting
>      this
>      up, which it
>      appears I am,
>      I didn't
>      even have
>      the intention of
>      mentioning that
>      proposition on the
>      call.  The call's
>      purpose is
>      to learn the
>      history of
>      the NFB/ACB,
>      with a
>      little emphasis on
>      the "civil war"
>      period,
>      from both
>      sides so we
>      are informed.  I
>      also want this
>      call to
>      start a
>      discussion on
>      the history of our
>      movement and what
>      we can
>      learn from
>      it, not
>      only as
>      Federationists,
>      but as
>      blind
>      students.
>      Jorge and I have found
>      some ways that we
>      can hold
>      the call
>      without
>      making it a NABS
>      membership call,
>      if it is
>      entirely
>      necessary.  And as to
>      your
>      comments about
>      them not
>      being our
>      friends,
>      then using your
>      argument, the
>      Republicans
>      should not
>      hear the
>      Democrats point of
>      view in meetings
>      of
>      Congress, but
>      the two
>      parties should be
>      separated from
>      each other
>      for fear
>      of their
>      own side being
>      attacked.
>      We can
>      keep our same
>      opinions, and probably many
>      Federationists
>      and Council
>      members
>      who attend
>      this call will.
>      This is just a
>      way that we
>      can be
>      more
>      informed when forming
>      these opinions.
>
>
>      Chris
>
>      "A loss of sight,
>      never a
>      loss of
>      vision!"
>      (Camp Abilities motto)
>      To learn more
>      about Camp
>      Abilities
>      and find a
>      local camp near
>      you, just click
>      on this
>      link to
>      their
>      national Web site:
>
>      www.campabilities.org.
>
>      The I C.A.N.
>      Foundation helps
>      visually
>      impaired youth in
>      Maryland have the
>      ability
>      to
>      confidently say
>      "I can!" How? Click
>      on this link to
>      learn more
>      and to
>      contribute:
>
>      www.icanfoundation.info.
>
>
>      Sent from
>      my BrailleNote
>
>
>      -----
>      Original Message -----
>      From: David
>      Andrews <dandrews at visi.com
>      To: National
>      Association
>      of Blind
>      Students
>      mailing list
>      <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>      Date sent: Sun,
>      19 Jun
>      2011 20:39:01
>      -0500
>      Subject: Re:
>      [nabs-l]
>      [Nfbnet-members-list]
>      Threw Our Eyes
>      interview,Ride
>      into
>      History, Race
>      for
>      Independence, Wed.
>      June
>      22, 8:00 pm EDT
>
>      Chris:
>
>      I don't want to
>      friend
>      anyone -- but
>      I think
>      this is a terrible
>      idea!
>      Remember the
>      ACB split off
>      from
>      the NFB because they
>      thought
>      that we were all
>      wrong,
>      did our
>      business in
>      the wrong way etc.  I
>      am
>      not going to say
>      that we
>      can't learn
>      anything
>      from the ACB, but
>      not a
>      history
>      lesson.  I
>      was at a ACb
>      National
>      Convention a few years
>      ago
>      -- and heard the
>      NFB
>      attacked openly
>      and
>      indirectly.  These
>      folks
>      are
>      not our
>      friends.  We
>      can work
>      jointly at
>      times, and should, and I
>      don't think we
>      should be
>      against
>      them, for
>      the sake of it, as
>      some of
>      my old-timer
>      friends are
>      -- but a
>      joint
>      conference call on
>      consideration of
>      a change
>      to a NFB
>      division
>      bylaw is going to
>      far!
>
>      Dave
>
>      At 12:53 PM
>      6/19/2011, you
>      wrote:
>      Kirt,
>
>      I have a friend
>      in the
>      Council that
>      I will
>      see Monday night, so I
>      plan to give this
>      idea to
>      him and
>      ask if he
>      knows someone in the
>      Council that
>      would be
>      knowledgeable
>      enough
>      and willing to attend
>      this call on
>      behalf of the
>      Council
>      as an
>      expert on their history.
>      Maybe it would be
>      better
>      if someone
>      like me
>      moderated.  Keep in
>      mind
>      that I did
>      volunteer, but
>      I'm not
>      degrading
>      anyone else, I'm just
>      using myself as
>      an example
>      here.
>      I'm a
>      member of the Federation,
>      but I'm not a
>      hard-line
>      "NFB is
>      good, ACB
>      bad" person, so I
>      wouldn't
>      show any bias to
>      NFB or
>      ACB.  I
>      also am
>      not currently a
>      contributing
>      (due-paying)
>      member of
>      NABS, so I'm
>      not a
>      leader in it of
>      course.
>      That way, we
>      wouldn't have
>      any
>      bias.
>      I think it would
>      be easy
>      to have it
>      jointly
>      attended even if it's
>      an
>      official NABS
>      call.
>      If we have a
>      representative of ACB on the
>      call,
>      we could probably
>      easily
>      get other
>      members of
>      ACB on the call to
>      kind of back up
>      or add to
>      that
>      guest
>      speaker's information.
>      Thoughts?
>
>      Chris
>
>      "A loss of sight,
>      never a
>      loss of
>      vision!"
>      (Camp Abilities motto)
>      To learn more
>      about Camp
>      Abilities
>      and find a
>      local camp near
>      you,
>      just click on
>      this link to
>      their
>      national Web
>      site:
>
>      www.campabilities.org.
>
>      The I C.A.N.
>      Foundation helps
>      visually
>      impaired youth in
>      Maryland
>      have the ability
>      to
>      confidently say
>      "I can!"
>      How? Click on this
>      link
>      to learn more and
>      to
>      contribute:
>      www.icanfoundation.info.
>
>      Sent from my
>      BrailleNote
>
>      ----- Original
>      Message
>      -----
>      From: Kirt
>      Manwaring
>      <kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>      To: National
>      Association
>      of Blind
>      Students
>      mailing list
>      <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>      Date sent: Sun,
>      19 Jun
>      2011 00:45:08
>      -0600
>      Subject: Re:
>      [nabs-l]
>      [Nfbnet-members-list]
>      Threw Our Eyes
>      interview,Ride
>      into
>      History, Race
>      for
>      Independence, Wed.
>      June
>      22, 8:00 pm EDT
>
>      Carley,
>       The
>      two
>      organizations don't
>      really claim to be "friends"
>      as
>      such-it
>      seems like now
>      they just
>      mostly
>      ignore each
>      other, work jointly
>      when
>      their agendas
>      converge and
>      play
>      politics when
>      they don't.  Maybe
>      they
>      aren't enemies,
>      but the
>      official
>      organizations don't really
>      advertise
>      themselves as
>      friends.
>
>      While it
>      would be great to
>      have people from both
>      organizations
>      participate in a
>      joint
>      call, I don't
>      see it
>      happening.  Here's
>      hoping
>      though, I
>      guess  It's
>      certainly a
>      nice
>      thought-although, if the
>      call
>      were to have
>      presentations
>      from
>      members of
>      both organizations, it
>      probably should
>      be jointly
>      moderated
>      and
>      attended.  The NFB (or
>      probably even
>      NABS) would,
>      I'm
>      betting, not
>      be inclined to go
>      there.
>      So maybe we'll
>      have better
>      luck
>      going through
>      unnoficial channels
>      and
>      setting this up
>      on our
>      own?  No
>      need to
>      make it an official event
>      for
>      either the
>      Federation or
>      the
>      Council-I think
>      it's safe to say
>      that
>      idea was doomed
>      to fail
>      before it
>      was brought
>      up.
>
>      Best,
>      Kirt
>
>      On 6/18/11, Chris
>      Nusbaum
>      <dotkid.nusbaum at gmail.com
>      wrote:
>      And, as I said
>      before, I
>      would be
>      very
>      willing to moderate this
>      call.
>      Please keep me
>      posted!
>
>
>      Chris
>
>      "A loss of sight,
>      never a
>      loss of
>      vision!"
>      (Camp Abilities motto)
>      To learn more
>      about Camp
>      Abilities
>      and find a
>      local camp near
>      you, just click
>      on this
>      link to
>      their
>      national Web site:
>
>      www.campabilities.org.
>
>      The I C.A.N.
>      Foundation helps
>      visually
>      impaired youth in
>      Maryland have the
>      ability
>      to
>      confidently say
>      "I can!" How? Click
>      on this link to
>      learn more
>      and to
>      contribute:
>
>      www.icanfoundation.info.
>
>       Sent
>      from my
>      BrailleNote
>
>
>      -----
>      Original Message
>      -----
>      From: Ignasi
>      Cambra <ignasicambra at gmail.com
>      To: National
>      Association
>      of Blind
>      Students
>      mailing list
>      <nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>      Date sent: Sat,
>      18 Jun
>      2011 18:51:04
>      -0400
>      Subject: Re:
>      [nabs-l]
>      [Nfbnet-members-list]
>      Threw Our Eyes
>      interview,Ride
>      into
>      History, Race
>      for
>      Independence, Wed.
>      June
>      22, 8:00 pm EDT
>
>      This call would
>      be very
>      interesting
>      indeed.  If
>      representatives
>      from both
>      organizations
>      are willing
>      to
>      participate, it can really
>      be productive in
>      many
>      ways.
>      On Jun 18, 2011,
>      at 1:46
>      PM, Carly
>      Mihalakis
>      wrote:
>
>
>
>       Good
>      morning,
>      list,
>
>       A
>      few days
>      ago, someone on
>      the NABS list  suggested
>      a
>      conference
>      call bringing
>      clarity to a
>      younger
>      generation.  What,
>      exactly, is
>      the history of
>      the
>      ideological
>      parting of
>      ways, between the
>      Federation and
>      the
>      Council? Does
>      anybody know
>      today, the history
>      of this division
>      or is it
>      a product
>      of sheer
>      habit as is the case
>      with Republicans
>      and
>      Democrats? If
>      such a
>      meeting of both
>      entities were to
>      take
>      place, There
>      ought to
>      be representation of
>      both
>      organizations
>      so that a
>      wholistic
>      portrait of this issue
>      can be
>      exercised.
>
>       and
>      its split
>      from the
>      ACB.  This seems like a
>      productive and
>      enlightening
>      discussion
>      but I
>      wonder, if the
>      Federation and the
>      council claim to
>      be
>      friends, should
>      there not
>      be representation
>      from
>      both   sides, identifying
>      their position and
>      whereabouts
>      they stand, in
>      this? At
>       ----
>      Original
>      Message
>      ------
>
>      From: "Joe
>      Ruffalo" <nfbnj at yahoo.com
>      (by way of David
>      Andrews<dandrews at visi.com>)
>
>      Subject:
>      [Nfbnet-members-list] Thru
>      Our Eyes
>      interview,
>      Ride
>      into History,Race
>      for
>      Independence,
>      Wed.  June 22, 8:00 pm
>      EDT
>       Date
>      sent:
>      Fri, 17 Jun 2011
>      19:26:45 -0500
>
>
>       Save
>      The
>      Date:
>
>       On
>      Wednesday,
>      June 22,at
>      8:00 pm eastern, Thru Our
>      Eyes host,
>      Joe
>
>      Ruffalo will
>      interview
>      Parnell Diggs, chair of the
>      Imagination
>      Fund,
>       Race
>      for
>      Independence.
>
>       The
>      interview
>      will highlight
>      current and past grants
>      awarded to
>      state
>
>      affiliates
>      and chapters.
>       In
>      addition,
>      featured will
>      be Imaginators who will share
>      the
>      methods
>       to
>      make the
>      ask to make a
>      difference in changing what
>      it means
>      to be blind.
>
>
>      Special
>      highlight of the
>      interview will be the
>      announcement of
>      the 30
>
>      winners who
>      will have the
>      opportunity to be driven by a
>      blind
>      driver
>
>      while
>      attending
>       the
>      national
>      convention in
>      Orlando.
>
>
>      Witness the
>      opportunity to
>      ride into history!
>
>       To
>      watch and
>      listen to the
>      interview, please visit the
>      following:
>
>      <http://www.thruoureyes.org>www.thruoureyes.org
>
>       For
>      JAWS
>      users and mobile
>      phone users, please visit
>      the
>      following:
>
>
>      m.thruoureyes.org
>
>
>      Other options
>      to watch or
>      listen can be found on the
>      sites
>      listed above.
>
>       To
>      call in
>      with comments or
>      questions, please dial the
>      following:
>       1
>      888 572
>      0141
>       Join
>      us to
>      Make a
>      Difference!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      _______________________________________________
>      nabs-l mailing list
>      nabs-l at nfbnet.org
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> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz
>      ydude%40gma
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>
>
>
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>
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