From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Tue Mar 1 01:14:36 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 17:14:36 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Philosophy in society Message-ID: Hi, I thought, once again, to not write something here, but I'm forced to by the inspiration: Stevie wonder is a famous blind celebrity. He wrote a song called "Higher Ground," If you haven't heard this song, this song has the quite clear message. To go the extra mile, to continue fighting, to not give up and face our challenges and fight against them; also to try and keep trying. Yes, there might be some blind people with low expectations taught by their sighted parents and counterparts, and they get lazy, and don't have employment. I think if we blind people, and also those blind people that have low expectations, keep on trying to raise our own expectations by taking the initiative to get propper training, propper education, and proper skills we can succeed in our lives, we can become independent and as competent as our sighted counterparts. We could use our blindness skills to be as competent, and so the society will not see us with their misperceptions about blindness. Once we are competent enough and if we demonstrate it in front of public and the society, they will see in action, how competent we are and how we really deal with new challenges. They will see that we are not helpless people or people who need help or they will not have as low expectations as they did back in the 50s and possible still today. And oh, by the way, I want to emphasize that *** WE THE BLIND ARE PART OF SOCIETY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *** > ----- Original Message ----- >From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Date sent: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:32:05 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Philosophy in society >I'm not quite sure that's what I took away from Kirt's e-mail. Yes, I'm >sure there are blind people with low expectations and a sense of entitlement >resulting from their disability, but I don't know that every blind >unemployed person out there has found themselves in this situation on >account of being lazy or for lack of trying. I've known three highly >competent blind people who were unemployed for a period of time for no other >reason than the poor state of the job market. That being said, the job >market will remain competitive even when the economy bounces back, and >people, blind or otherwise, should be prepared to run the extra mile to make >themselves marketable. For blind people unfortunately this means living in >cities with better public transportation, better education and plenty of >experience, whether it be paid or unpaid. Writing list posts, producing >podcasts and maintaining blog journals will only get us so far on the resume >unless these activities are advancing one's objectives or directly relevant >to the position to which one is applying. >Joe >“Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all.”--Sam Ewing >-----Original Message----- >From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >Of Anmol Bhatia >Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 12:17 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Philosophy in society >Hello Kirt, >There is know need to ve to appologize since pretty much everything you said >in your previous email is mostly true. I just commend you for having the >courage to speak the trouth and for saying what I and I spect a few other >blind people think in a public blind list. But pretty much I agree with >everything you said about most blind people feeling the need of entitlement, >suffering from laziness,and having low expectation and how all this can be >classified as related to their disability. Frankly this frustrates me to >know extend. >Anmol >I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps >there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze >among flowers. >Hellen Keller >--- On Sun, 2/27/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> From: Kirt Manwaring > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Philosophy in society >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> Date: Sunday, February 27, 2011, 8:32 PM >> To all, >>   I have to appologize for my last email.  Most >> blind people, even the >> ones that frustrate me to no end, deserve more respect than >> I just >> gave.  I can only think of a few to whom all my last >> blanket >> statements apply. >>   Best, >> Kirt >> On 2/27/11, Kirt Manwaring > wrote: >>> Serena, >>>   Absolutely.  I'm talking about >> those whose only diagnosed disability >>> is blindness.  But certainly their sense of >> entitlement, laziness, low >>> expectations and nonexistent work ethics could all be >> considered >>> disabilities, in their own right. >>> On 2/27/11, Serena Cucco > wrote: >>>> Hi Kirt, >>>> I agree ... I know plenty of blind people (not on >> this list) who could >>>> definitely use better social skills.  Keep in >> mind, though, many blind >>>> people who only talk about blindness may have >> additional disabilities >>>> that >>>> make social interaction difficult.  I know >> plenty of these. >>>> Serena >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] >> On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 2:07 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Philosophy in society >>>> Arielle, >>>>   I really shouldn't beat a dead >> horse senseless.  But here I go again. >>>> :) >>>>   I suppose, strictly speaking, >> you're right.  To each his/her own. >>>> But I know plenty of blind people, a >> disproportionately large number, >>>> who don't know how to interact with the sighted >> public.  Their lives >>>> are blindness.  And they don't ever interact >> with anything, or anyone >>>> else.  It's no wonder, then, that we as a >> blind community sometimes >>>> get a bad rap for being narrow-minded, exclusive, >> and even eletist. >>>> Were a sighted person who didn't know a thing >> about blindness, and I >>>> were to meet at random one of the blind people who >> I currently >>>> know...odds are, I probably wouldn't be impressed >> enough to think of >>>> them as an equal.  Because, let's face it, >> too many blind people have >>>> been told their whole lives they can't succeed in >> the sighted world. >>>> And, because of that rediculous unspoken mantra, >> (maybe explicitly >>>> spoken sometimes, I don't know) they don't know >> how to handle >>>> themselves with sighted people when they need >> to.  I think we all know >>>> a good number of blind people who fit the >> description I just gave.  I >>>> know far too many.  So, on that front, I rest >> my case. >>>>   Now let's move on to the other >> issues you raised.  For those blind >>>> people who want blindness to basically be their >> whole identity...fine. >>>>  It's not my place to say they shouldn't do >> that.  It's certainly good >>>> to see qualified blind people working as cane >> travel instructors, >>>> braille teachers, rehab counselors, etc.  And >> I have just as much >>>> respect for a blind husband and wife as I would >> for a sighted couple, >>>> all other factors being equal, provided the blind >> spouses both have >>>> the skills they need to independently manage a >> marriage and, if they >>>> so choose, a family. >>>>   That being said, I've taken a lot >> of heat from lots of blind people >>>> for not being "involved" enough.  Never mind >> I'm in school, I have a >>>> social life at school, and I have lots of other >> things I want to do >>>> outside the blind community.  As I've said, >> I'm not going to judge >>>> people who make the blind community their primary >> social network.  I >>>> only ask for that to go both ways.  Blindness >> is not me, I just happen >>>> to be blind along with all the plethora of other >> things that help >>>> define me.  Unfortunately, often times I >> don't get the same respect >>>> I'm trying to give.  Y'all do your thing, >> I'll do mine.  And let's all >>>> be friendly and realize the diversity we all bring >> to the table.  You >>>> may choose to live your life primarily with blind >> people, more power >>>> to you!  I choose not to, and all I want is >> that same courtesy. >>>>   Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> P.S.  Arielle, that was in no way directed >> against you.  Just...some >>>> of my frustrations about some other people came >> out.  I'm not meaning >>>> to accuse or insult anyone here, so please forgive >> me if it sounded >>>> that way. >>>> On 2/26/11, Arielle Silverman > wrote: >>>>> Hi Kurt and all, >>>>> I agree with Darian. Just because someone >> talks about blindness stuff >>>>> a lot with their blind friends doesn't >> necessarily mean they will have >>>>> similarly narrow conversation when with >> sighted people. Being a part >>>>> of two minority groups (blind people and Jews) >> I can attest that my >>>>> blind friends and I talk a lot about blindness >> and my Jewish friends >>>>> and I talk a lot about Jewish things. I don't >> talk about the blindness >>>>> stuff with my Jewish friends, and vice versa. >> I also tend to talk >>>>> about psychology a lot with my grad student >> and faculty colleagues. I >>>>> don't even think it's a problem if someone's >> primary identity is >>>>> blindness, they work in the blindness field >> and they marry a blind >>>>> person, as long as they're able to get along >> OK with sighted >>>>> coworkers, friends or acquaintances when they >> need to. Some of us >>>>> prefer to have a wide circle of friends or >> multiple social communities >>>>> but others are perfectly content with a few >> friends or one main >>>>> community and I don't think it's our place to >> pass judgment on these >>>>> people. I can understand the concerns about >> our public image, but >>>>> again I think that boils down to how well the >> blind person is able to >>>>> interact with sighted people when they need >> to. I think we should make >>>>> an effort to be kind and inclusive to sighted >> people around us, but we >>>>> don't necessarily need to reach out to them as >> our friends. >>>>> Arielle >>>>> On 2/17/11, Jorge Paez > wrote: >>>>>> So very true. >>>>>> I remember being in the Mall Of America, >>>>>> the 4 of us kids were going with one of >> the councelers on a >>>>>> rolercoaster, >>>>>> and they tried to force an adult >> administrator to go with us. >>>>>> Councelors fought it out and won that one >> though, >>>>>> but yes, I've seen some quite bad ones. >>>>>> Actually, I remember a guy once on a >> plane--the flight attendance that >>>> is, >>>>>> said my cane had to be stored in the >> overhead because it could "be used >>>> as >>>>>> a >>>>>> weapon." >>>>>> Jorge >>>>>> On Feb 16, 2011, at 11:19 PM, humberto >> wrote: >>>>>>> Interesting essay: We all run into >> stories like that. I know, people >>>> just >>>>>>> don't understand about blindness. >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: Bridgit Pollpeter >>>>>>> To: >>>>>>> Date sent: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 >> 18:02:23 -0600 >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Philosophy in >> society >>>>>>>> It is a total drag when people >> want to only talk about your >>>>>>> blindness-- >>>>>>>> as though you have nothing to >> offer.  I try to view these moments >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> educational opportunities.  I >> kindly and diplomatically explain, >>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>> best of my abilities, how blind >> people "do" things.  I try to >>>>>>> answer >>>>>>>> questions, but then turn the >> conversation around to discuss other >>>>>>>> matters.  Find opportunities >> in conversations to change the >>>>>>> discussion. >>>>>>>> It is not always easy.  I do >> think it is perfectly acceptable to, >>>>>>> in a >>>>>>>> diplomatic fashion, explain that >> blind people have other >>>>>>> interest.  Ask >>>>>>>> the person questions so a >> back-and-forth begins. >>>>>>>> I am posting an essay I wrote that >> exemplifies this discussion, I >>>>>>> think. >>>>>>>> There is a section with some >> strong language so if you do not >>>>>>> enjoy >>>>>>>> strong language, you may want to >> skip this.  It is only a small >>>>>>> section >>>>>>>> that includes the language.  >> Enjoy.  *smile* >>>>>>>> The Event of the Century >>>>>>>> The chill wind whips my hair as I >> cane along the Fuddrucker's >>>>>>> building >>>>>>>> with my long white cane searching >> for the door.  My friends do >>>>>>> the same >>>>>>>> with their canes.  The scent >> of grease filters through the chill >>>>>>> air. >>>>>>>> It is the unmistakeable odor of a >> hamburger joint.  We are cold, >>>>>>> and we >>>>>>>> are hungry.  Finding the >> door, we all scurry inside.  We are >>>>>>> seven >>>>>>>> friends out on a Saturday having a >> good time-we all happen to be >>>>>>> blind. >>>>>>>> Piling into the entrance, we tap >> our white canes investigating >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> restaurant.  Ross, my >> husband, and I find a wall and follow it >>>>>>> with our >>>>>>>> canes tapping back-and-forth >> against the wall.  "Hey guys," I >>>>>>> call out, >>>>>>>> "I believe this is the >> counter."  The click of cane tips echoes >>>>>>> from all >>>>>>>> directions as Shane, Amy, Audra, >> Jamie and Carol find their way >>>>>>> to the >>>>>>>> counter.  Since the menu is >> not available in Braille, I ask the >>>>>>> cashier >>>>>>>> to please read the choices out >> loud.  Ross and I order as our >>>>>>> friends >>>>>>>> from Lincoln, who we do not see >> often, decide what sounds best. >>>>>>>> Grabbing my cup, I listen for the >> soda fountain.  Ice chinks into >>>>>>> a cup >>>>>>>> and I follow the sound.  I >> encounter an island separating the >>>>>>> soda >>>>>>>> fountain from where I stand.  >> Pausing for a second, I determine >>>>>>> which >>>>>>>> direction to walk around the >> island, but before I can take >>>>>>> another step, >>>>>>>> a stranger approaches me. >>>>>>>> "Can I help you?" she asks. >>>>>>>> "No thanks.  I'm just going >> to fill my cup," I say. As I step >>>>>>> around the >>>>>>>> stranger, arcing my cane, I can >> tell she is hesitating.  Before I >>>>>>> know >>>>>>>> what to do, she pinches a fold of >> my coat and yanks me around the >>>>>>>> island. >>>>>>>> "It's this way," she says . >>>>>>>> "Thanks, but that's the direction >> I was moving in, ma'am." >>>>>>>> The stranger pauses again as my >> friends move past looking for an >>>>>>> open >>>>>>>> table. "Where is your companion?" >> she asks. >>>>>>>> "Well, seeing as we're all adults, >> we don't have a companion."  I >>>>>>> follow >>>>>>>> the cane taps leaving the stranger >> alone to ponder the miracle >>>>>>> happening >>>>>>>> before her eyes. >>>>>>>> "The freak show's out.  >> Everyone should grab their camera," Audra >>>>>>> says >>>>>>>> as I approach the table. >>>>>>>> We all quietly chuckle. We don't >> mean to be rude, but we are all >>>>>>> use to >>>>>>>> this reaction when in >> public.  The amazing blind people who have >>>>>>> left >>>>>>>> the security of their homes!  >> Yes, I am cynical, but this has >>>>>>> always >>>>>>>> been a part of my character.  >> Encountering ridiculous ideas and >>>>>>> outdated >>>>>>>> attitudes towards blindness on a >> daily basis, keeps my cynicism >>>>>>> fresh. >>>>>>>> Eight years ago I would never have >> thought the hardest part of >>>>>>> being >>>>>>>> blind was dealing with society's >> perceptions and attitudes.  I >>>>>>> very >>>>>>>> quickly adjusted to my blindness, >> and it is a part of who I am. >>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> accept it just as I accept the >> color of my hair or my inability >>>>>>> to solve >>>>>>>> a math equation quickly.  I >> am no more amazing than anyone else, >>>>>>> but >>>>>>>> because I do things without >> vision, it suddenly makes me >>>>>>> exceptional. >>>>>>>> It is difficult to be around >> people, not because I am blind, but >>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> others usually have problems >> accepting me as a person and not as >>>>>>> a blind >>>>>>>> person.  Sometimes, I would >> rather spend time with children >>>>>>> because they >>>>>>>> have an inate ability to trust and >> not doubt because of a >>>>>>> perceived >>>>>>>> reality. >>>>>>>> My favorite past time these days >> is spending time with my nephew >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> nieces.  I must have the baby >> bug or something-- the biological >>>>>>> clock >>>>>>>> and all.  They bring joy to >> my life, and yes, I must admit, I >>>>>>> talk >>>>>>>> endlessly about them. >>>>>>>> Caiden is seven and a bit too >> smart for his own good.  Chloe is >>>>>>> five and >>>>>>>> extremely independent, but she >> loves with her whole heart. >>>>>>> Kensley is >>>>>>>> two, and she has the sweetest >> temperament, but every now and >>>>>>> then, she >>>>>>>> gets a wild, mischievious glimmer >> in her eyes.  Penny is one and >>>>>>> full of >>>>>>>> energy, but I have become a >> surrogate mother to her. I have >>>>>>> watched them >>>>>>>> evolve from tiny beings, into real >> people, and it is through them >>>>>>> I see >>>>>>>> where the future can lie. >>>>>>>> I am often met with dubious stares >> and hesitant concerns when >>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> find out that I frequently watch >> my nephew and nieces. >>>>>>>> "How could you watch children?" >>>>>>>> "Isn't it difficult?" >>>>>>>> "Can blind people do that?" >>>>>>>> I hear these questions repeatedly, >> and depending on my mood, I >>>>>>> respond >>>>>>>> accordingly.  I do not >> believe how insulting people can be. >>>>>>>> When I take the kids to the park >> or the mall or on a walk, people >>>>>>>> usually think the kids are guiding >> me around.  Yes, a >>>>>>> seven-year-old, >>>>>>>> five-year-old, two-year-old and a >> baby guide me.  We would all be >>>>>>> dead. >>>>>>>> I wonder if people think about >> what they say. >>>>>>>> The kids never question my >> abilities.  Blindness is normal to >>>>>>> them.  My >>>>>>>> actions speak volumes to Caiden, >> Chloe, Kensley and Penny.  We >>>>>>> think >>>>>>>> children have mental limitations, >> but they understand what adults >>>>>>> can >>>>>>>> not.  My babies accept me and >> do not doubt their safety with me. >>>>>>>> Caiden loves to play video >> games.  I think he is a bit young for >>>>>>> this, >>>>>>>> but what do adults know, >> right?  If allowed, he would play all >>>>>>> day long. >>>>>>>> Once, my mom was watching the >> kids, and in an attempt to get >>>>>>> Caiden to >>>>>>>> stop the game and play outside, >> she told him, "If you play too >>>>>>> many >>>>>>>> video games you will go blind." >>>>>>>> Caiden's response was, "Grandma, >> it's not a big deal to be blind. >>>>>>> Look >>>>>>>> at Aunt Bridgy." >>>>>>>> With these words, I realize the >> impact I have on my nephew and >>>>>>> nieces. >>>>>>>> They are the beginning of a >> generation that can break the >>>>>>> stereotypes >>>>>>>> about blindness.  The efforts >> I make seem so small, but through >>>>>>> these >>>>>>>> children, I know the effect is >> lasting. >>>>>>>> Recently Chloe has taken to >> walking around with her eyes closed >>>>>>> because >>>>>>>> she, "Wants to be like Aunt >> Bridgy." Every time she is at my >>>>>>> house, she >>>>>>>> insists on using a white cane to >> walk around with.  She is also >>>>>>>> fascinated with Braille and wants >> to learn this tactile form of >>>>>>> print. >>>>>>>> Every where she goes, she points >> out signs that have Braille on >>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>> She has no fear.  To Chloe, >> blindness is just another way to >>>>>>> "be." >>>>>>>> Children are not caught up in >> their perceptions, but will believe >>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> you tell them at face value.  >> Exposure to me has allowed my >>>>>>> nephew and >>>>>>>> nieces to learn and understand >> that life does not stop after >>>>>>> blindness. >>>>>>>> Diversity is wide, and children >> accept people for who they are. >>>>>>> My >>>>>>>> children accept me as capable and >> confident-the way they view >>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> adults in their lives.  In >> their eyes, I am no different, and >>>>>>> there is >>>>>>>> no thought of limitations. >>>>>>>> Kensley and Penny are still >> grasping the fact that I do not >>>>>>> respond to >>>>>>>> visual cues, like nodding their >> heads.  Both have quickly >>>>>>> adjusted to >>>>>>>> finding other means in which to >> express their wants. When wanting >>>>>>> to be >>>>>>>> held, they come to me and place >> their arms around my legs.  When >>>>>>> they >>>>>>>> want to show me something like a >> toy, they place it in my hands. >>>>>>> Kensley >>>>>>>> and Penny do not question my >> ability to care for them.  To them, >>>>>>> I am >>>>>>>> comfort, I am love, I am security, >> and of course I am food! >>>>>>>> Sometimes, I pin a small bell to >> the back of their clothing so I >>>>>>> know >>>>>>>> where they are, but usually their >> gibber-gabber gives their >>>>>>> location >>>>>>>> away.  As Penny and Kensley >> learn to speak, they will understand >>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> they must use their words, and not >> gestures, to communicate with >>>>>>> me. >>>>>>>> These two will grow up never >> thinking I am odd, or doubt that I >>>>>>> can care >>>>>>>> for them. >>>>>>>> Adults, on the other hand, do not >> see beyond my blindness.  The >>>>>>> world >>>>>>>> created a reality in which >> blindness is a debilitating disability >>>>>>>> leaving one limited and to be >> pitied.  True, not everyone buys >>>>>>> into the >>>>>>>> antiquated stereotypes, and not >> everyone believes me inferior, >>>>>>> but, in >>>>>>>> my experience, most people still >> cling to old notions. >>>>>>>> I was leaving campus one day, and >> a man approached me from behind >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> declared, "You are amazing!"  >> I knew what he meant, but I acted >>>>>>> as >>>>>>>> though I had no clue. >>>>>>>> "What do you mean?" I asked. >>>>>>>> "You get around so well.  It >> is truly amazing you can walk." >>>>>>>> "Thanks, but I am blind, not >> paralyzed." >>>>>>>> "I just mean it is amazing you >> don't run into stuff." >>>>>>>> "If I didn't use this cane I >> would."  I proceeded down the steps >>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>> fine arts building. Following >> behind me, he seemed poised to >>>>>>> capture a >>>>>>>> blind person out of their natural >> environment. >>>>>>>> I looked up as I felt snow fall >> lightly on my head and face. >>>>>>> "Wow, it's >>>>>>>> snowing again?" >>>>>>>> "See, you're amazing!  How do >> you know it's snowing?  It must be >>>>>>> your >>>>>>>> sixth sense." >>>>>>>> "No, I feel it.  Can't you?" >>>>>>>> Diplomacy is the usual route I >> take, but there are times when I >>>>>>> can no >>>>>>>> longer deal with the attitudes >> forced on me.  I try to educate-I >>>>>>> try to >>>>>>>> be positive, but watch out if you >> catch me on a bad day. >>>>>>>> I stood, a few months ago,  >> waiting at the curb to cross the >>>>>>> street. >>>>>>>> Listening to the traffic on Center >> street in front of me, and the >>>>>>>> traffic on Paddock road to my >> right, I prepare to cross.  As a >>>>>>> person >>>>>>>> who is blind, I listen to the >> sound of traffic to help me cross a >>>>>>>> street, and yes, it is safe to do >> this.  Still not sure?  How >>>>>>> many >>>>>>>> sighted people get into >> accidents?  I rest my case. >>>>>>>> Once the light changes, it won't >> stay green long, and I must zip >>>>>>> across. >>>>>>>> I wait and wait and wait-the red >> light (red as in I have the >>>>>>> right-away) >>>>>>>> is a freakin' fifteen-seconds >> long, but when traffic has the >>>>>>> green, I >>>>>>>> stand here forever.  I >> checked the time, three o' clock on the >>>>>>> dot. >>>>>>>> Come on.  I tapped my long >> white cane on the pavement out of >>>>>>> boredom. >>>>>>>> Suddenly, I'm grabbed by the elbow >> from behind.  With cars on >>>>>>> Center >>>>>>>> Street still zooming by, a crazed >> pedestrian forces me into >>>>>>> oncoming >>>>>>>> traffic.  I could not stop, >> so I continue this farce as this >>>>>>> Crazy Carla >>>>>>>> dragged me across the >> street.  Cars whizzed and rumbled by, and I >>>>>>> had no >>>>>>>> choice but to keep truckin'. >>>>>>>> Reaching the other side, I slapped >> the strangers hand away and >>>>>>> shouted, >>>>>>>> "What the hell are you doing?" >>>>>>>> "Are you good?" Crazy Carla asked, >> ignoring my question. >>>>>>>> "Are you insane?  You can >> see, right?  Clearly we did not have >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> right-away.  Shit!" >>>>>>>> Crazy Carla, who, I swore,  >> was about to meet her fate back out >>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> Center street , tried grabbing my >> arm again. >>>>>>>> Grabbing her wrist, I asked, "Do I >> know you?  No, so what gives >>>>>>> you the >>>>>>>> idea I want a complete stranger >> touching me?" >>>>>>>> "Can you make it home from here?" >>>>>>>> I stared in her direction.  >> Is she deaf? >>>>>>>> "Uh, I think I'm good.  How >> the hell do you think I was getting >>>>>>> around >>>>>>>> before you, like a maniac, drove >> me across the street?" >>>>>>>> "Have a good day.  Ya' sure >> you can get home okay?" >>>>>>>> Throwing my backpack down, I >> shouted, "O-H MY GOD!  Fuck you!" >>>>>>> Grabbing >>>>>>>> my bag, I turned and stomped >> towards my apartment complex. >>>>>>>> No, I am not proud of such >> outburst, but I don't accept the >>>>>>> perceptions >>>>>>>> society has constructed about >> blindness either.  I, who was >>>>>>> safely and >>>>>>>> cautiously waiting to cross a busy >> city street, was assumed >>>>>>> incapable by >>>>>>>> a sighted person who threw caution >> to the wind and placed me, and >>>>>>>> themselves, into a dangerous >> situation.  Instead of thinking, >>>>>>> "Hmm, this >>>>>>>> person is blind, but they are out >> and about on their own, they >>>>>>> must be >>>>>>>> okay-they must know what they are >> doing," they only "see" the >>>>>>> blind girl >>>>>>>> standing alone and do not get past >> that thought. >>>>>>>> My friends all have similar >> stories.  We are seven people >>>>>>> enjoying each >>>>>>>> other's company, but because we >> are all blind, it is considered >>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> event of the century. We range in >> age from twenty-five to >>>>>>> thirty-five, >>>>>>>> some of us have children, all of >> us work, but it is an awesome >>>>>>>> accomplishment that we are >> socializing without a sighted >>>>>>> companion. >>>>>>>> It is even more incredible that >> our conversation sounds like any >>>>>>> other >>>>>>>> conversation.  This confuses >> our server as the girls talk about >>>>>>> what to >>>>>>>> do at the mall, and the guys talk >> about the football game playing >>>>>>> on the >>>>>>>> television. >>>>>>>> "You're all blind, right?" he >> asks. >>>>>>>> Seven voices chorus, "Yes." >>>>>>>> Message: 4 >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:05:46 >> -0800 >>>>>>>> From: Darian Smith >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Philosiphy in >> society >>>>>>>> Message-ID: >>>>>>>>     >> >>>>>> m >>>>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; >> charset=ISO-8859-1 >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> So, I was thinking about how  >> what we learn in the NFb can >>>>>>> translate >>>>>>>> into society.  For >> example,  socializing, we want to be >>>>>>> considered as >>>>>>>> "normal" as the next person, but >> often we are asked the  general >>>>>>>> blindness related questions, >> not  ina bad way, but because people >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>> understand something and want to >> know  what we do.  How do people >>>>>>> deal >>>>>>>> with this?  Say, you really >> had a long day, and the last thing >>>>>>> you want >>>>>>>> to hear is something related to >> blindness, but the grammys were >>>>>>> on, and >>>>>>>> you wouldn't mind talking >> about  how a certain pop star finally >>>>>>> didn't >>>>>>>> win something *smile*.  >> Or,  you have the weel-meaning person >>>>>>> trying to >>>>>>>> direct you somewhere, when you've >> made it clear  that you do not >>>>>>> require >>>>>>>> said assistance? How do you  >> handle this without getting  fairly >>>>>>> annoyed >>>>>>>> and/or taking >>>>>>>> it to be more serious than >> it's  simply ment.   I know we talk >>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> the  importance of educating >> the public, yet   the equil >>>>>>> importance of >>>>>>>> stressing >> normality.   How have people handled  >> these ideas?  How >>>>>>> does >>>>>>>> one  operate keeping in mind >> the ideas of both living one's life >>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> keep in mind the next blind person >> that comes along? >>>>>>>>   Darian >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list >> options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>>>>> 5369%40netzero.net >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list >> options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapae z%40mac.com >> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options >> or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.pres ident%40gma >>>> il.com >>>>> -- >>>>> Arielle Silverman >>>>> President, National Association of Blind >> Students >>>>> Phone:  602-502-2255 >>>>> Email: >>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com >>>>> Website: >>>>> www.nabslink.org >> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or >> get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gma >>>> il.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >> your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc co%40verizo >>>> n.net >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get >> your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gma >il.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >> account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbha tia%40yahoo >..com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco% 40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From clb5590 at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 01:25:51 2011 From: clb5590 at gmail.com (Cindy Bennett) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 20:25:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Summer Research Opportunity: Dan Gilbert's Lab at Harvard In-Reply-To: <83815ceb381eb494b7c574deb3478288.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> References: <83815ceb381eb494b7c574deb3478288.squirrel@webmail.uic.edu> Message-ID: Is this a paid internship or a volunteer position? Thanks. Cindy On 2/28/11, Wiley, Jennifer wrote: >> Professor Daniel Gilbert's Lab at Harvard University is accepting >> applications for volunteer research assistants for the summer. The >> ideal candidate is a motivated undergraduate or recent graduate with a >> keen interest in social psychology. Research experience is an asset >> but not a necessity. >> >> Research topics relate to affective forecasting, the role of shared >> experience, the impact of alternatives and expertise on well-being, >> and judgment and decision making. Interns work approximately 35 hours >> a week; this includes data collection, analysis, and lab meetings. >> >> To apply: please send a CV, unofficial grade report, and your proposed >> summer start and stop dates to gilbertlab.summer at gmail.com >> >> The opportunity is for summer 2011; start and stop dates can be >> anywhere between May-September. Applications will be reviewed on a >> rolling basis until positions are filled. >> >> _____________________ >> >> Lisa L. Shu >> Organizational Behavior & Psychology >> Harvard Business School | Harvard Psychology Department >> > -- Cindy Bennett uNC Wilmington Psychology major clb5590 at gmail.com 828.989.5383 From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 02:16:43 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:16:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about identification of different items In-Reply-To: References: <4D6AD666.6000302@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jorge: The device of which I spoke earlier is called a pocket money brailler. Instead of telling you about it, I found the link to the site where you can buy it if you so choose: http://www.braillebookstore.com/view.php?T=Pocket+Money+Brailler Hope this Helps, Patrick On 2/27/11, Cindy Bennett wrote: > I definitely think an iBill, or some money identifyer, would be > helpful, because sometimes my money gets mixed up, and I have to ask > someone. I have a wallet with a bunch of different pockets, I fold it, > or I organize it so that my money is in a stack from smallest to > largest bills, but this is hard, because you have to remember how many > of each bill you have, but it is convenient if you want to keep money > in your pocket or in a pouch on your key ring or something. I just > don't like to carry around purses, so that's why I do that, but again, > not always wise. You could keep different bills in pockets too. > > I personally don't label my cards, but I haven't had to thus far. My > credit cards feel different, one is more slick than the other, but > putting a sticker on one wouldn't be a bad idea. I would just be sure > and have someone make sure you don't put the sticker over your > signature or over any of the numbers on the back. > > I have a braille list of all of my credit card information. I keep > this at home, because typically, you don't need this information when > you're out, because you'll use your physical card. > > And, I haven't really ever felt like I got ripped off, but that's just > my experience. If you look confident when you're making a financial > transaction, then that will help, but that is where using a credit > card instead of cash might help. You can check your bank statements > online to make sure your idea of what you spent lines up with the bank > has record of. > > Cindy > > > On 2/27/11, Jordyn Castor wrote: >> Hey all, >> I'm just looking for tips on how you all identify your different cards, >> like credit cards, state ID's, and other cards. Do most cards feel >> different? Also, do you just write down your different credit card >> numbers and expiration dates? I'm getting to the point now where I'm >> going to have to keep track of these things so I'm just wondering lol. >> Another random question: Do a lot of you have iBills or do you just >> prefer folding your money? Do you ever worry about a cashier tricking >> you and giving you the wrong bills or giving a cashier the wrong bills >> and not getting the correct change back? As of now, I fold my money but >> again, I'm just looking for your opinions. >> Thanks for your help! >> Jordyn >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Cindy Bennett > uNC Wilmington Psychology major > > clb5590 at gmail.com > 828.989.5383 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From jordyn2493 at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 02:20:37 2011 From: jordyn2493 at gmail.com (Jordyn Castor) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:20:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about identification of different items In-Reply-To: References: <4D6AD666.6000302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D6C57F5.9070105@gmail.com> Hey Patrick! Do you find that the dots get smudged on the money after you braille them and they are on there for a while? On 2/28/2011 9:16 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Jorge: > The device of which I spoke earlier is called a pocket money brailler. > Instead of telling you about it, I found the link to the site where > you can buy it if you so choose: > http://www.braillebookstore.com/view.php?T=Pocket+Money+Brailler > Hope this Helps, > Patrick > > On 2/27/11, Cindy Bennett wrote: >> I definitely think an iBill, or some money identifyer, would be >> helpful, because sometimes my money gets mixed up, and I have to ask >> someone. I have a wallet with a bunch of different pockets, I fold it, >> or I organize it so that my money is in a stack from smallest to >> largest bills, but this is hard, because you have to remember how many >> of each bill you have, but it is convenient if you want to keep money >> in your pocket or in a pouch on your key ring or something. I just >> don't like to carry around purses, so that's why I do that, but again, >> not always wise. You could keep different bills in pockets too. >> >> I personally don't label my cards, but I haven't had to thus far. My >> credit cards feel different, one is more slick than the other, but >> putting a sticker on one wouldn't be a bad idea. I would just be sure >> and have someone make sure you don't put the sticker over your >> signature or over any of the numbers on the back. >> >> I have a braille list of all of my credit card information. I keep >> this at home, because typically, you don't need this information when >> you're out, because you'll use your physical card. >> >> And, I haven't really ever felt like I got ripped off, but that's just >> my experience. If you look confident when you're making a financial >> transaction, then that will help, but that is where using a credit >> card instead of cash might help. You can check your bank statements >> online to make sure your idea of what you spent lines up with the bank >> has record of. >> >> Cindy >> >> >> On 2/27/11, Jordyn Castor wrote: >>> Hey all, >>> I'm just looking for tips on how you all identify your different cards, >>> like credit cards, state ID's, and other cards. Do most cards feel >>> different? Also, do you just write down your different credit card >>> numbers and expiration dates? I'm getting to the point now where I'm >>> going to have to keep track of these things so I'm just wondering lol. >>> Another random question: Do a lot of you have iBills or do you just >>> prefer folding your money? Do you ever worry about a cashier tricking >>> you and giving you the wrong bills or giving a cashier the wrong bills >>> and not getting the correct change back? As of now, I fold my money but >>> again, I'm just looking for your opinions. >>> Thanks for your help! >>> Jordyn >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>> >> >> -- >> Cindy Bennett >> uNC Wilmington Psychology major >> >> clb5590 at gmail.com >> 828.989.5383 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jordyn2493%40gmail.com From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 02:35:10 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:35:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about identification of different items In-Reply-To: <4D6C57F5.9070105@gmail.com> References: <4D6AD666.6000302@gmail.com> <4D6C57F5.9070105@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jordyn, Sometimes they get a little bit flat, but I can always re-Braille them in about a second. Patrick On 2/28/11, Jordyn Castor wrote: > Hey Patrick! > Do you find that the dots get smudged on the money after you braille > them and they are on there for a while? > On 2/28/2011 9:16 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Jorge: >> The device of which I spoke earlier is called a pocket money brailler. >> Instead of telling you about it, I found the link to the site where >> you can buy it if you so choose: >> http://www.braillebookstore.com/view.php?T=Pocket+Money+Brailler >> Hope this Helps, >> Patrick >> >> On 2/27/11, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>> I definitely think an iBill, or some money identifyer, would be >>> helpful, because sometimes my money gets mixed up, and I have to ask >>> someone. I have a wallet with a bunch of different pockets, I fold it, >>> or I organize it so that my money is in a stack from smallest to >>> largest bills, but this is hard, because you have to remember how many >>> of each bill you have, but it is convenient if you want to keep money >>> in your pocket or in a pouch on your key ring or something. I just >>> don't like to carry around purses, so that's why I do that, but again, >>> not always wise. You could keep different bills in pockets too. >>> >>> I personally don't label my cards, but I haven't had to thus far. My >>> credit cards feel different, one is more slick than the other, but >>> putting a sticker on one wouldn't be a bad idea. I would just be sure >>> and have someone make sure you don't put the sticker over your >>> signature or over any of the numbers on the back. >>> >>> I have a braille list of all of my credit card information. I keep >>> this at home, because typically, you don't need this information when >>> you're out, because you'll use your physical card. >>> >>> And, I haven't really ever felt like I got ripped off, but that's just >>> my experience. If you look confident when you're making a financial >>> transaction, then that will help, but that is where using a credit >>> card instead of cash might help. You can check your bank statements >>> online to make sure your idea of what you spent lines up with the bank >>> has record of. >>> >>> Cindy >>> >>> >>> On 2/27/11, Jordyn Castor wrote: >>>> Hey all, >>>> I'm just looking for tips on how you all identify your different cards, >>>> like credit cards, state ID's, and other cards. Do most cards feel >>>> different? Also, do you just write down your different credit card >>>> numbers and expiration dates? I'm getting to the point now where I'm >>>> going to have to keep track of these things so I'm just wondering lol. >>>> Another random question: Do a lot of you have iBills or do you just >>>> prefer folding your money? Do you ever worry about a cashier tricking >>>> you and giving you the wrong bills or giving a cashier the wrong bills >>>> and not getting the correct change back? As of now, I fold my money but >>>> again, I'm just looking for your opinions. >>>> Thanks for your help! >>>> Jordyn >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Cindy Bennett >>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major >>> >>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>> 828.989.5383 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jordyn2493%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 04:12:08 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:12:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS Announcements Message-ID: Hello NABS members, I hope all of you are having an excellent semester. I just wanted to make a few brief announcements: 1. I will be publishing another bulletin this time next week. If you have activities you'd like announced, like upcoming seminars, please send me your announcements at nabs.president at gmail.com by this Sunday, March 6. 2. As many of you know, one of the things the National Association of Blind Students can offer your student division is a board member to come to your state convention, student seminar, or other meeting. Our board members are all experienced student leaders who can assist your student division with organizing, planning events, transitioning your leadership, or just putting together a fun, informative seminar. Many of you have taken advantage of our offer of NABS board reps and it has been our pleasure to come to your student meetings. I would just like to issue a few friendly reminders about our NABS rep process to ensure that everything runs smoothly, and to educate you if this is your first time requesting a NABS rep. First, if you have a convention or other meeting coming up and would like to request a NABS rep, please plan ahead and request one as early as possible. If we get a request less than four weeks before your event, we will try to accommodate you, but we cannot guarantee that we'll be able to send a rep. The reason for this is that airplane tickets can sometimes get very expensive when bought less than a month in advance, so please help us out and make your request early. Second, before you request, please ask your state affiliate president first if they'd be willing to pay for the rep's hotel and meals during the event. NABS pays for their transportation, but we can't afford to pay for hotel and meals too, so we'll need your affiliate to agree to pay those costs. Finally, once you're ready to request, please go to www.nabslink.org and fill out the short request form. I will get it emailed to me and then will dispatch it to the appropriate representative. You may request specific board members, but we will make the final decision based on availability, cost and other factors. If you don't request a specific person, we will make an effort to send your assigned representative for your region. You can find out who your regional rep is by going to the "Contact NABS" section of our website. Lastly, if you haven't done so already, please email me your contact information if you are a newly elected student division president so we can update our records. Thanks for your cooperation! Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students From jesusfreak262 at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 08:36:28 2011 From: jesusfreak262 at gmail.com (Bre B) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 03:36:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] question about identification of different items In-Reply-To: References: <4D6AD666.6000302@gmail.com> <4D6C57F5.9070105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D6CB00C.3050507@gmail.com> On 2/28/2011 9:35 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Jordyn, > Sometimes they get a little bit flat, but I can always re-Braille them > in about a second. > Patrick > > On 2/28/11, Jordyn Castor wrote: >> Hey Patrick! >> Do you find that the dots get smudged on the money after you braille >> them and they are on there for a while? >> On 2/28/2011 9:16 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> Jorge: >>> The device of which I spoke earlier is called a pocket money brailler. >>> Instead of telling you about it, I found the link to the site where >>> you can buy it if you so choose: >>> http://www.braillebookstore.com/view.php?T=Pocket+Money+Brailler >>> Hope this Helps, >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 2/27/11, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>> I definitely think an iBill, or some money identifyer, would be >>>> helpful, because sometimes my money gets mixed up, and I have to ask >>>> someone. I have a wallet with a bunch of different pockets, I fold it, >>>> or I organize it so that my money is in a stack from smallest to >>>> largest bills, but this is hard, because you have to remember how many >>>> of each bill you have, but it is convenient if you want to keep money >>>> in your pocket or in a pouch on your key ring or something. I just >>>> don't like to carry around purses, so that's why I do that, but again, >>>> not always wise. You could keep different bills in pockets too. >>>> >>>> I personally don't label my cards, but I haven't had to thus far. My >>>> credit cards feel different, one is more slick than the other, but >>>> putting a sticker on one wouldn't be a bad idea. I would just be sure >>>> and have someone make sure you don't put the sticker over your >>>> signature or over any of the numbers on the back. >>>> >>>> I have a braille list of all of my credit card information. I keep >>>> this at home, because typically, you don't need this information when >>>> you're out, because you'll use your physical card. >>>> >>>> And, I haven't really ever felt like I got ripped off, but that's just >>>> my experience. If you look confident when you're making a financial >>>> transaction, then that will help, but that is where using a credit >>>> card instead of cash might help. You can check your bank statements >>>> online to make sure your idea of what you spent lines up with the bank >>>> has record of. >>>> >>>> Cindy >>>> >>>> >>>> On 2/27/11, Jordyn Castor wrote: >>>>> Hey all, >>>>> I'm just looking for tips on how you all identify your different cards, >>>>> like credit cards, state ID's, and other cards. Do most cards feel >>>>> different? Also, do you just write down your different credit card >>>>> numbers and expiration dates? I'm getting to the point now where I'm >>>>> going to have to keep track of these things so I'm just wondering lol. >>>>> Another random question: Do a lot of you have iBills or do you just >>>>> prefer folding your money? Do you ever worry about a cashier tricking >>>>> you and giving you the wrong bills or giving a cashier the wrong bills >>>>> and not getting the correct change back? As of now, I fold my money but >>>>> again, I'm just looking for your opinions. >>>>> Thanks for your help! >>>>> Jordyn >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Cindy Bennett >>>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major >>>> >>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>> 828.989.5383 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jordyn2493%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jesusfreak262%40gmail.com I just usually tend to keep my cards in particular spots in my wallet. From jwiley at UIC.EDU Tue Mar 1 16:39:12 2011 From: jwiley at UIC.EDU (Jennifer Wiley) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 10:39:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Case Manager, Cook County Sheriff's Women's Justice Program Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20110301103845.030a5da8@mail.uic.edu> HI ALL TRY THIS EMAIL ADDRESS "Brittany" the one in the previous email does not seem to work Case Manager Wanted SUMMARY: Candidate will be working as part of a multidisciplinary team in the Cook County Sheriff' s Women's Justice Programs to assist women with co-occurring disorders (mental health and substance use) recently released from jail to successfully re-enter the community. The Case manager will administer a standardized Needs Assessment during client intake and work with the multidisciplinary team on creating individualized treatment plans for each client. Case Manager will assist clients in accessing community resources, establish connections with new community resources, and will track successful linkages, using an intensive case management model. QUALIFICATIONS: A Bachelors degree in Social Work, Psychology, or a related field is preferred. Case management experience with women from the targeted population is highly desired. Excellent communication skills required. Interpersonal and organizational ability required. Must be able to initiate tasks and work independently. Applicant should be interested in working with justice involved women. Must be able to pass a criminal background check and have access to a car. The ideal applicant should be familiar with theoretical perspectives on different case management models. Additional skills and experience may be required depending on the needs of the project. PRINCIPAL DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES: 1. Provides case management and linkage for women with co-occurring disorders as part of community re-entry services. 2. Complete program intakes with clients using the Gender Responsive Needs Assessment. 3. Provide active, intensive, comprehensive case management services which includes accompanying the client to the referral source if necessary. 4. Interacts with probation and other treatment staff to facilitate individualized treatment plans and ensure continuity of care. 5. Coordinate all communication to community agencies and linkages. 6. Maintain and strengthen existing linkages with community agencies. 7. Establish new linkages with community organizations across a variety of Chicago neighborhoods. 8. Collect records of referrals and maintain participant files. 9. Other duties as assigned. WORKING CONDITIONS: The programs are in administered in several criminal justice sites, including Cook County Jail. The project provides the Cook County Sheriff's Women's Justice programs in assisting primarily incarcerated women break the cycle of recidivism through access to community resources. Generally pleasant environment with strong team approach. Daily business hours including some evenings and weekends when necessary. Some off-site activities. If interested, please send a cover letter and resume to:"Brittany" From agrima at nbp.org Tue Mar 1 18:35:14 2011 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 13:35:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Our Special Readers' Favorite Recipes Message-ID: <004301cbd83f$68a38fc0$39eaaf40$@org> Our Special Readers' Favorite Recipes Edited by Diane Raeder In Braille or eBraille (1 vol.), $9.00 We asked readers from our women's magazine, Our Special, to submit their favorite recipes, which we have compiled into a one-volume cookbook, edited by Diane Raeder (yes, Bill's daughter and a culinary chef in her own right). An eclectic mix of sixty recipes include appetizers, breakfasts, salads & sauces, side dishes, main meals, and of course, desserts. The recipes were written by blind cooks and the ingredients are commonplace, although the dishes are not. It also includes a very helpful list of common ingredient substitutions. Read the full list of recipes - and order the book - at: http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/OSCOOK.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 03:13:24 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 20:13:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? Message-ID: Dear List, First...I'm breaking my vow of NABS abstainance! I'm just too weak-willed. Anyway...today I'm here to vent about a few things, so if you don't want to read I understand. First...isn't it ironic how the Blio reader was marketed by the NFB as the biggest thing since sliced bread? It was supposed to totally transform reading for blind consumers! And guess what? I downloaded the accessibility version, bought a 16 dollar book that just came out today (Kingkiller Chronicle, if there are any other fantasy geeks on here), and hit the "read aloud" button...only to find out the publisher hadn't authorized text to speech reading. Then I thought "no matter, it's a product that the NFB helped develop. Surely I can have jaws read the plain text in the book." Only to find out that...guess what? It won't. I did a little bit of messing around in the application and couldn't figure it out. I'm a little disappointed. But I want the book tonight! So here's to wasting another 16 dollars, downloading the Kindle accessible app, and hoping it works ok. Wouldn't it be kind of poetic if Amazon, after being sued, makes a more accessible product than a company run in part by the NFB? Best, Kirt From liamskitten at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 03:28:30 2011 From: liamskitten at gmail.com (Courtney Stover) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 21:28:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kurt, I can tell you from personal experience that the Kindle AP is phenomenal! Yes, there are definite problems; the navigation needs some work; it's hard to navigate by chapter instead of page etc. etc., but everything I've tried reading is accessible. The voice isn't that great, but it's definitely readable. If you have questions, feel free to E-mail me off list at cstover165 at gmail.com I certainly don't know everything, but I'll do my best to help with what I do, and not to sound arrogant, I'm a very good researcher, so if I don't know something, I should be able to find out how to do it within twenty-four hours. I do quite a bit of free-lance tutoring of blind individuals on mainstream technologies and am planning to add this to my services list soon, so any questions you may have would also be very helpful in terms of understanding what obstacles my students will face, and what general areas I should cover in the lessons. Courtney On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Dear List, > First...I'm breaking my vow of NABS abstainance! I'm just too > weak-willed. Anyway...today I'm here to vent about a few things, so > if you don't want to read I understand. > First...isn't it ironic how the Blio reader was marketed by the NFB > as the biggest thing since sliced bread? It was supposed to totally > transform reading for blind consumers! And guess what? I downloaded > the accessibility version, bought a 16 dollar book that just came out > today (Kingkiller Chronicle, if there are any other fantasy geeks on > here), and hit the "read aloud" button...only to find out the > publisher hadn't authorized text to speech reading. Then I thought > "no matter, it's a product that the NFB helped develop. Surely I can > have jaws read the plain text in the book." Only to find out > that...guess what? It won't. I did a little bit of messing around in > the application and couldn't figure it out. I'm a little > disappointed. > But I want the book tonight! So here's to wasting another 16 > dollars, downloading the Kindle accessible app, and hoping it works > ok. Wouldn't it be kind of poetic if Amazon, after being sued, makes > a more accessible product than a company run in part by the NFB? > Best, > Kirt > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com > From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 03:46:43 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 22:46:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Leader dogs for the blind Message-ID: <983BF8DFF0AB46EF859D7A40AEF5F98A@hometwxakonvzn> Have any of of you attended to leader dogs for the blind? their web sight is: www.leaderdog.org They do Mobility as well. Have any of you taken the mobility course? RJ From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 03:55:39 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 20:55:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To everyone again, (Courtney, I'll email you soon) It's official. The Kindel beats the Blio for accessibility. I've never used the thing and I'm reading ok. (amazon actually has documentation for the Kindel accessible plugin, unlike our very own KNFB blio) So...yeah, maybe law suits are good every now and again. And maybe KNFB needs a good wakeup call...I know I'm going to be skeptical of anything else they put out after this debacle. Best, Kirt On 3/1/11, Courtney Stover wrote: > Kurt, > > I can tell you from personal experience that the Kindle AP is > phenomenal! Yes, there are definite problems; the navigation needs > some work; it's hard to navigate by chapter instead of page etc. etc., > but everything I've tried reading is accessible. The voice isn't that > great, but it's definitely readable. > > If you have questions, feel free to E-mail me off list at > cstover165 at gmail.com I certainly don't know everything, but I'll do > my best to help with what I do, and not to sound arrogant, I'm a very > good researcher, so if I don't know something, I should be able to > find out how to do it within twenty-four hours. I do quite a bit of > free-lance tutoring of blind individuals on mainstream technologies > and am planning to add this to my services list soon, so any questions > you may have would also be very helpful in terms of understanding what > obstacles my students will face, and what general areas I should cover > in the lessons. > Courtney > > On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Dear List, >> First...I'm breaking my vow of NABS abstainance! I'm just too >> weak-willed. Anyway...today I'm here to vent about a few things, so >> if you don't want to read I understand. >> First...isn't it ironic how the Blio reader was marketed by the NFB >> as the biggest thing since sliced bread? It was supposed to totally >> transform reading for blind consumers! And guess what? I downloaded >> the accessibility version, bought a 16 dollar book that just came out >> today (Kingkiller Chronicle, if there are any other fantasy geeks on >> here), and hit the "read aloud" button...only to find out the >> publisher hadn't authorized text to speech reading. Then I thought >> "no matter, it's a product that the NFB helped develop. Surely I can >> have jaws read the plain text in the book." Only to find out >> that...guess what? It won't. I did a little bit of messing around in >> the application and couldn't figure it out. I'm a little >> disappointed. >> But I want the book tonight! So here's to wasting another 16 >> dollars, downloading the Kindle accessible app, and hoping it works >> ok. Wouldn't it be kind of poetic if Amazon, after being sued, makes >> a more accessible product than a company run in part by the NFB? >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 04:11:07 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 21:11:07 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Kirt and all, It's really unfortunate that the speech was turned off on the book you bought from the BLIO store. Not knowing much about the BLIO myself, I wonder if this is an oversight on KNFB's part or if this is just something some authors have done that KNFB isn't aware of? I also wonder if this happens with many of their books or just a few? If you are motivated (you might not be, having found a better solution, but if you are) you may want to report what happened to their technical support with an email or phone call. Arielle On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To everyone again, > (Courtney, I'll email you soon) > It's official. The Kindel beats the Blio for accessibility. I've > never used the thing and I'm reading ok. (amazon actually has > documentation for the Kindel accessible plugin, unlike our very own > KNFB blio) So...yeah, maybe law suits are good every now and again. > And maybe KNFB needs a good wakeup call...I know I'm going to be > skeptical of anything else they put out after this debacle. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/1/11, Courtney Stover wrote: >> Kurt, >> >> I can tell you from personal experience that the Kindle AP is >> phenomenal! Yes, there are definite problems; the navigation needs >> some work; it's hard to navigate by chapter instead of page etc. etc., >> but everything I've tried reading is accessible. The voice isn't that >> great, but it's definitely readable. >> >> If you have questions, feel free to E-mail me off list at >> cstover165 at gmail.com I certainly don't know everything, but I'll do >> my best to help with what I do, and not to sound arrogant, I'm a very >> good researcher, so if I don't know something, I should be able to >> find out how to do it within twenty-four hours. I do quite a bit of >> free-lance tutoring of blind individuals on mainstream technologies >> and am planning to add this to my services list soon, so any questions >> you may have would also be very helpful in terms of understanding what >> obstacles my students will face, and what general areas I should cover >> in the lessons. >> Courtney >> >> On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Dear List, >>> First...I'm breaking my vow of NABS abstainance! I'm just too >>> weak-willed. Anyway...today I'm here to vent about a few things, so >>> if you don't want to read I understand. >>> First...isn't it ironic how the Blio reader was marketed by the NFB >>> as the biggest thing since sliced bread? It was supposed to totally >>> transform reading for blind consumers! And guess what? I downloaded >>> the accessibility version, bought a 16 dollar book that just came out >>> today (Kingkiller Chronicle, if there are any other fantasy geeks on >>> here), and hit the "read aloud" button...only to find out the >>> publisher hadn't authorized text to speech reading. Then I thought >>> "no matter, it's a product that the NFB helped develop. Surely I can >>> have jaws read the plain text in the book." Only to find out >>> that...guess what? It won't. I did a little bit of messing around in >>> the application and couldn't figure it out. I'm a little >>> disappointed. >>> But I want the book tonight! So here's to wasting another 16 >>> dollars, downloading the Kindle accessible app, and hoping it works >>> ok. Wouldn't it be kind of poetic if Amazon, after being sued, makes >>> a more accessible product than a company run in part by the NFB? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Mar 2 04:22:26 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 23:22:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good point. Maybe the author did it; it may not have anything to do with the Blio reader's function. Kirt, I'd encourage you to report this problem. Ash;ley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 11:11 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? Hi Kirt and all, It's really unfortunate that the speech was turned off on the book you bought from the BLIO store. Not knowing much about the BLIO myself, I wonder if this is an oversight on KNFB's part or if this is just something some authors have done that KNFB isn't aware of? I also wonder if this happens with many of their books or just a few? If you are motivated (you might not be, having found a better solution, but if you are) you may want to report what happened to their technical support with an email or phone call. Arielle On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To everyone again, > (Courtney, I'll email you soon) > It's official. The Kindel beats the Blio for accessibility. I've > never used the thing and I'm reading ok. (amazon actually has > documentation for the Kindel accessible plugin, unlike our very own > KNFB blio) So...yeah, maybe law suits are good every now and again. > And maybe KNFB needs a good wakeup call...I know I'm going to be > skeptical of anything else they put out after this debacle. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/1/11, Courtney Stover wrote: >> Kurt, >> >> I can tell you from personal experience that the Kindle AP is >> phenomenal! Yes, there are definite problems; the navigation needs >> some work; it's hard to navigate by chapter instead of page etc. etc., >> but everything I've tried reading is accessible. The voice isn't that >> great, but it's definitely readable. >> >> If you have questions, feel free to E-mail me off list at >> cstover165 at gmail.com I certainly don't know everything, but I'll do >> my best to help with what I do, and not to sound arrogant, I'm a very >> good researcher, so if I don't know something, I should be able to >> find out how to do it within twenty-four hours. I do quite a bit of >> free-lance tutoring of blind individuals on mainstream technologies >> and am planning to add this to my services list soon, so any questions >> you may have would also be very helpful in terms of understanding what >> obstacles my students will face, and what general areas I should cover >> in the lessons. >> Courtney >> >> On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Dear List, >>> First...I'm breaking my vow of NABS abstainance! I'm just too >>> weak-willed. Anyway...today I'm here to vent about a few things, so >>> if you don't want to read I understand. >>> First...isn't it ironic how the Blio reader was marketed by the NFB >>> as the biggest thing since sliced bread? It was supposed to totally >>> transform reading for blind consumers! And guess what? I downloaded >>> the accessibility version, bought a 16 dollar book that just came out >>> today (Kingkiller Chronicle, if there are any other fantasy geeks on >>> here), and hit the "read aloud" button...only to find out the >>> publisher hadn't authorized text to speech reading. Then I thought >>> "no matter, it's a product that the NFB helped develop. Surely I can >>> have jaws read the plain text in the book." Only to find out >>> that...guess what? It won't. I did a little bit of messing around in >>> the application and couldn't figure it out. I'm a little >>> disappointed. >>> But I want the book tonight! So here's to wasting another 16 >>> dollars, downloading the Kindle accessible app, and hoping it works >>> ok. Wouldn't it be kind of poetic if Amazon, after being sued, makes >>> a more accessible product than a company run in part by the NFB? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 04:53:46 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 22:53:46 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Question about identification of different items In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I do have an I-bill reader, but I agree that you still must have some way to independently manage your finances. I purchased, years ago, a billfold with separate slots for bills, but I have also used the folding system which works too. The I-bill helps me sort money once home, or away from a cashier. I don't like to hold up lines in the store if I can help it. With cards, I have a Braille label on the card itself for identification purposes. For example, my Visa has a "V" in Braille that I place in a corner opposite where the magnetic strip is. At home, I keep index cards with each card number Brailled along with expiration dates, passwords and security codes, which are the three numbers on the back of the card. I keep these organized at home so I have access to all the important info for each card. I use online banking to review my transactions and statements. I have found that most national banks have accessible sites that allow you to utilize each function of the site. I also keep a detailed account of my transactions in an Excel spreadsheet. Well, I must admit, my husband does this, but he has developed spreadsheets that track trends and maintain monthly and yearly balances. It seems like a lot of work, but it is actually simple to maintain your finances. All the great, expensive pieces of technology are great, but not necessary. Bridgit From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com Wed Mar 2 05:02:03 2011 From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 21:02:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] powerpoint commands Message-ID: <292714.14087.qm@web162014.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hello nabs, I am trying to read some powerpoint slides, but I am having a hard time getting jaws to read me the content on the slides. Does anyone have a lisgt of key strokes for powerpoint in Microsoft 2003 and would not mind emailing those to me? If you could email me this I would appreciate it. thanks Anmol I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. Hellen Keller       From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 05:28:39 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 22:28:39 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: :) It's not just that the Blio text to speech was turned off. But jaws wasn't able to read the book text on the screen. That to me seems like the bigger oversight. And, cause I'm mad and angry and fired up and stuff, I might as well shoot technical support a nice, friendly email. Best to all, Kirt On 3/1/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Good point. Maybe the author did it; it may not have anything to do with the > Blio reader's function. > Kirt, I'd encourage you to report this problem. > Ash;ley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 11:11 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? > > Hi Kirt and all, > > It's really unfortunate that the speech was turned off on the book you > bought from the BLIO store. Not knowing much about the BLIO myself, I > wonder if this is an oversight on KNFB's part or if this is just > something some authors have done that KNFB isn't aware of? I also > wonder if this happens with many of their books or just a few? If you > are motivated (you might not be, having found a better solution, but > if you are) you may want to report what happened to their technical > support with an email or phone call. > > Arielle > > On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> To everyone again, >> (Courtney, I'll email you soon) >> It's official. The Kindel beats the Blio for accessibility. I've >> never used the thing and I'm reading ok. (amazon actually has >> documentation for the Kindel accessible plugin, unlike our very own >> KNFB blio) So...yeah, maybe law suits are good every now and again. >> And maybe KNFB needs a good wakeup call...I know I'm going to be >> skeptical of anything else they put out after this debacle. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/1/11, Courtney Stover wrote: >>> Kurt, >>> >>> I can tell you from personal experience that the Kindle AP is >>> phenomenal! Yes, there are definite problems; the navigation needs >>> some work; it's hard to navigate by chapter instead of page etc. etc., >>> but everything I've tried reading is accessible. The voice isn't that >>> great, but it's definitely readable. >>> >>> If you have questions, feel free to E-mail me off list at >>> cstover165 at gmail.com I certainly don't know everything, but I'll do >>> my best to help with what I do, and not to sound arrogant, I'm a very >>> good researcher, so if I don't know something, I should be able to >>> find out how to do it within twenty-four hours. I do quite a bit of >>> free-lance tutoring of blind individuals on mainstream technologies >>> and am planning to add this to my services list soon, so any questions >>> you may have would also be very helpful in terms of understanding what >>> obstacles my students will face, and what general areas I should cover >>> in the lessons. >>> Courtney >>> >>> On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Dear List, >>>> First...I'm breaking my vow of NABS abstainance! I'm just too >>>> weak-willed. Anyway...today I'm here to vent about a few things, so >>>> if you don't want to read I understand. >>>> First...isn't it ironic how the Blio reader was marketed by the NFB >>>> as the biggest thing since sliced bread? It was supposed to totally >>>> transform reading for blind consumers! And guess what? I downloaded >>>> the accessibility version, bought a 16 dollar book that just came out >>>> today (Kingkiller Chronicle, if there are any other fantasy geeks on >>>> here), and hit the "read aloud" button...only to find out the >>>> publisher hadn't authorized text to speech reading. Then I thought >>>> "no matter, it's a product that the NFB helped develop. Surely I can >>>> have jaws read the plain text in the book." Only to find out >>>> that...guess what? It won't. I did a little bit of messing around in >>>> the application and couldn't figure it out. I'm a little >>>> disappointed. >>>> But I want the book tonight! So here's to wasting another 16 >>>> dollars, downloading the Kindle accessible app, and hoping it works >>>> ok. Wouldn't it be kind of poetic if Amazon, after being sued, makes >>>> a more accessible product than a company run in part by the NFB? >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Wed Mar 2 06:52:19 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 22:52:19 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? References: Message-ID: It was probably something that the author did because of that stupid five letter word that, in my personal opinion, is the root of many of our problems. MONEY. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? > :) It's not just that the Blio text to speech was turned off. But > jaws wasn't able to read the book text on the screen. That to me > seems like the bigger oversight. And, cause I'm mad and angry and > fired up and stuff, I might as well shoot technical support a nice, > friendly email. > Best to all, > Kirt > > On 3/1/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Good point. Maybe the author did it; it may not have anything to do with >> the >> Blio reader's function. >> Kirt, I'd encourage you to report this problem. >> Ash;ley >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman >> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 11:11 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? >> >> Hi Kirt and all, >> >> It's really unfortunate that the speech was turned off on the book you >> bought from the BLIO store. Not knowing much about the BLIO myself, I >> wonder if this is an oversight on KNFB's part or if this is just >> something some authors have done that KNFB isn't aware of? I also >> wonder if this happens with many of their books or just a few? If you >> are motivated (you might not be, having found a better solution, but >> if you are) you may want to report what happened to their technical >> support with an email or phone call. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> To everyone again, >>> (Courtney, I'll email you soon) >>> It's official. The Kindel beats the Blio for accessibility. I've >>> never used the thing and I'm reading ok. (amazon actually has >>> documentation for the Kindel accessible plugin, unlike our very own >>> KNFB blio) So...yeah, maybe law suits are good every now and again. >>> And maybe KNFB needs a good wakeup call...I know I'm going to be >>> skeptical of anything else they put out after this debacle. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/1/11, Courtney Stover wrote: >>>> Kurt, >>>> >>>> I can tell you from personal experience that the Kindle AP is >>>> phenomenal! Yes, there are definite problems; the navigation needs >>>> some work; it's hard to navigate by chapter instead of page etc. etc., >>>> but everything I've tried reading is accessible. The voice isn't that >>>> great, but it's definitely readable. >>>> >>>> If you have questions, feel free to E-mail me off list at >>>> cstover165 at gmail.com I certainly don't know everything, but I'll do >>>> my best to help with what I do, and not to sound arrogant, I'm a very >>>> good researcher, so if I don't know something, I should be able to >>>> find out how to do it within twenty-four hours. I do quite a bit of >>>> free-lance tutoring of blind individuals on mainstream technologies >>>> and am planning to add this to my services list soon, so any questions >>>> you may have would also be very helpful in terms of understanding what >>>> obstacles my students will face, and what general areas I should cover >>>> in the lessons. >>>> Courtney >>>> >>>> On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Dear List, >>>>> First...I'm breaking my vow of NABS abstainance! I'm just too >>>>> weak-willed. Anyway...today I'm here to vent about a few things, so >>>>> if you don't want to read I understand. >>>>> First...isn't it ironic how the Blio reader was marketed by the NFB >>>>> as the biggest thing since sliced bread? It was supposed to totally >>>>> transform reading for blind consumers! And guess what? I downloaded >>>>> the accessibility version, bought a 16 dollar book that just came out >>>>> today (Kingkiller Chronicle, if there are any other fantasy geeks on >>>>> here), and hit the "read aloud" button...only to find out the >>>>> publisher hadn't authorized text to speech reading. Then I thought >>>>> "no matter, it's a product that the NFB helped develop. Surely I can >>>>> have jaws read the plain text in the book." Only to find out >>>>> that...guess what? It won't. I did a little bit of messing around in >>>>> the application and couldn't figure it out. I'm a little >>>>> disappointed. >>>>> But I want the book tonight! So here's to wasting another 16 >>>>> dollars, downloading the Kindle accessible app, and hoping it works >>>>> ok. Wouldn't it be kind of poetic if Amazon, after being sued, makes >>>>> a more accessible product than a company run in part by the NFB? >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Arielle Silverman >> President, National Association of Blind Students >> Phone: 602-502-2255 >> Email: >> nabs.president at gmail.com >> Website: >> www.nabslink.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com From byron at byronlee.com Wed Mar 2 06:41:12 2011 From: byron at byronlee.com (Byron J. Lee) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 00:41:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google Calendar In-Reply-To: <62C81EA1-1510-4943-850E-A0AD9E152F76@gmail.com> References: <08D7E0E2-75C0-441C-9504-60F9E3062165@wavecable.com> <1A4346FF-2C2C-494D-9DD4-2A707FA23C25@mac.com> <5158F809-E695-407D-AEE4-1F2C7437643F@wavecable.com> <9D84634A-1FAA-4E51-BAB6-E0272022C49F@mac.com> <62C81EA1-1510-4943-850E-A0AD9E152F76@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D6DE688.8040905@byronlee.com> I need some help. I'm trying to use Google Calendar. Does anyone know if there's a standalone program, iphone app, or other such method of adding events to Google Calendar. I've found VERY little by googling the issue. Thanks for any help! sincerely, Byron Lee _______________________________________________ Electronics-talk mailing list Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Electronics-talk: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/gymnastdave%40sbcglobal.net From enews at codefactory.info Wed Mar 2 14:23:48 2011 From: enews at codefactory.info (Code Factory News (no reply)) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 08:23:48 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Mobile Accessibility: Code Factory Goes Android! Message-ID: Logo Code Factory Caroline Ragot - Marketing marketing at codefactory.es Mobile Accessibility for Android Mobile Accessibility: Code Factory Goes Android! Features Touchscreen Navigation, Speech Recognition, Web and Email Access, and Nuance’s Vocalizer® Text-to-Speech FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Terrassa (Barcelona), Spain, March 2nd, 2011 Today, Code Factory is delighted to introduce Mobile Accessibility, a screen-access application that allows people who are blind or have low vision to use an Android phone in an intuitive, easy and simple way. Mobile Accessibility is the first accessible Android application that permits intuitive touchscreen navigation of Android phones, featuring text readback via natural sounding voices powered by Nuance’s Vocalizer® text-to-speech technology. “Mobile phones have proved to be among the fastest-changing consumer technologies in the world – particularly with the advent of the Android platform. So making mobile phones accessible to the blind and visually impaired is therefore challenging, fascinating, thrilling and totally exciting all at the same time,” explained Eduard Sánchez, Code Factory’s CEO. “There was no doubt that we would target the Android platform, as we very quickly realized that there was a real need in this specific market for an accessible solution that can provide a user-friendly experience for all blind and low-vision consumers. Mobile Accessibility allows everyone, from beginners to the most tech-savvy, to use an Android phone, no matter if it has physical keys or is touchscreen-only.” Mobile Accessibility is two products in one: * A suite of 10 accessible applications (Phone, Contacts, SMS, Alarm, Calendar, Email, Web, Where am I, Apps and Settings) that have been specially designed for the blind and visually impaired. They all have a simplified interface whose textual information is spoken using Nuance Vocalizer® voice synthesis. * A screen reader that allows users to get out of the suite and navigate the standard interface of their phone. “Mobile Accessibility provides both access to the mainstream apps of the phone and access to special apps for blind people. Why? Because our philosophy has always been to allow our users to use the phone the same way as everyone else. However, we also believe that having some special apps for the most common tasks can be extremely useful if it means gaining in productivity,” added Eduard Sánchez. The major features of Mobile Accessibility are the following: * Touch navigation: You can use Mobile Accessibility not only with the trackball or the physical keyboard of your phone, but also with its touchscreen! Simply move your finger around the screen and the voice synthesis will read the text located under your finger. Or if you prefer, you can also swipe up/down/right/left and tap on the screen to navigate through the interface. And if you wish you can enable sound and vibration feedback. * Easy to input text: In or outside the Mobile Accessibility suite you can use the touch QWERTY keyboard as well as the speech recognition to write text quickly and easily. Imagine writing an SMS or an Email using your voice only. * Voice synthesis: Code Factory has been making mobile phones accessible to the blind and visually impaired for many years now, and they know that the voice matters... and a lot! For Mobile Accessibility, Code Factory has partnered with Nuance® to leverage its trusted Vocalizer text-to-speech technology, providing consumers with natural sounding voice readback. “With around 314 million visually impaired persons around the world, we believe that it’s our joint obligation to facilitate access to information and mobile communication to everyone” says Arnd Weil, VP & General Manager Automotive / Consumer Electronics, Nuance Communications. “By offering screen reader functionality for Android phones using Nuance Vocalizer, Code Factory gives blind and visually impaired persons access to one of the most important mobile platforms with the market’s most natural sounding and intelligible voices.” Inside the Mobile Accessibility suite of accessible applications you can do the following: * Phone: Make calls, answer calls, hear the caller ID and manage your call log. * Contacts: Manage your contacts, even those from social networks such as Facebook. * SMS: Compose and read short messages. Manage conversations. * Alarms: Set your alarms. * Web: Full web browser experience, similar to what you can find on your PC. Jump by the control of your choice (links, paragraphs, headings, forms, etc.) to navigate faster to the information of your interest. Bookmark your favourite webpages. * Calendar: Create, edit and delete a calendar entry. View all events per day, week or month. * Email: Full access to your Gmail account * Where am I? : GPS application that gives you updates on your current location. * Settings: Change ringtone. Configure feedback and notifications (vibration or audio). Configure keyboard echo, punctuation verbosity, speech pitch and rate, etc. * Quick access to date and time, phone status information such as battery level and network coverage, number of missed calls and unread messages, etc. To hear Mobile Accessibility in action listen to videos and audio demos at http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=415#video Mobile Accessibility supports all Android phones from version 2.1 and above. Please note that voice recognition is only supported with version 2.2 and above. Note also that if you want to use the screen reader functionality of Mobile Accessibility you will need a phone with physical navigational controls such as a trackball or trackpad. You can find more information about Android phones at http://www.Google.com/phone/#manufacturer=all&category=all&carrier=all&country=all&reset_filters=1 At the time of this release Mobile Accessibility is only available in English, but soon Code Factory will release other versions of Mobile Accessibility for Spanish, Italian, German, French and Portuguese. Note that Mobile Accessibility doesn't support multiple languages at one time. If you buy the English version of Mobile Accessibility you will not be able to use it in another language like French or Spanish. There will be a specific version of Mobile Accessibility for each language and each version will have to be purchased separately. You can now get a Mobile Accessibility Demo from the Android Market and try the product for free for 30 days: * Mobile Accessibility Demo US: https://market.android.com/details?id=es.codefactory.android.app.ma.vocalizerenudemo&feature=search_result * Mobile Accessibility Demo UK: https://market.android.com/details?id=es.codefactory.android.app.ma.vocalizerengdemo&feature=search_result Soon Mobile Accessibility will be available for purchase through the Android Market at the price of 69 EUROS. You can purchase the application directly from the Market application of your Android phone, or from the web page https://market.android.com . Before buying the app make sure to check out our website at http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=415 to see what carriers offer the product for free to their customers. To learn how to use Mobile Accessibility for Android, please consult the user guide at http://www.codefactory.es/MA/en/ma_1_0_manual.html. For technical assistance, please submit a ticket through Code Factory’s Help Desk at http://www.codefactory.cat/helpdesk/. For more information about Mobile Accessibility and Code Factory subscribe to the Mobile Accessibility mailing list at http://www.codefactory.es/en/list.asp?id=88, visit our website at http://www.codefactory.es or follow the company on Twitter at http://twitter.com/codefactory and use the hashtag #MA to talk about Mobile Accessibility. About Code Factory Founded in 1998 and headquartered in Terrassa (Barcelona), Spain, Code Factory is the global leader committed to the development of products designed to eliminate barriers to the accessibility of mobile technology for the blind and visually impaired. Today, Code Factory is the leading provider of accessible mobile applications such as screen readers, screen magnifiers, and Braille interfaces. Code Factory’s products are compatible with the widest range of mainstream mobile devices running on Symbian, Windows Mobile, BlackBerry Smartphones, and Android. Among Code Factory's customers are well known organizations for the blind such as ONCE in Spain, and carriers such as AT&T, Bouygues Telecom, SFR, TIM and Vodafone. About Nuance Communications, Inc. Nuance is a leading provider of speech and imaging solutions for businesses and consumers around the world. Its technologies, applications and services make the user experience more compelling by transforming the way people interact with information and how they create, share and use documents. Every day, millions of users and thousands of businesses experience Nuance’s proven applications and professional services. For more information, please visit: nuance.com. For more information, feel free to contact Code Factory S.L.: Code Factory, S.L., Rambla d'Egara 148 2-2, 08221 Terrassa (Barcelona) HelpDesk, www.codefactory.es Code Factory, S.L. - 2011 From dandrews at visi.com Wed Mar 2 15:33:05 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 09:33:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: NBP-Announce: Our Special Readers' Favorite Recipes Message-ID: >From: "Tony Grima" >To: >Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 13:34:11 -0500 >thread-index: AcvYPw6o9sdlEWQZQaWaa/m17wyMKg== >Subject: NBP-Announce: Our Special Readers' Favorite Recipes > >Our Special Readers' Favorite Recipes >Edited by Diane Raeder >In Braille or eBraille (1 vol.), $9.00 > >We asked readers from our women's magazine, Our Special, to submit their >favorite recipes, which we have compiled into a one-volume cookbook, edited >by Diane Raeder (yes, Bill's daughter and a culinary chef in her own right). >An eclectic mix of sixty recipes include appetizers, breakfasts, salads and >sauces, side dishes, main meals, and of course, desserts. The recipes were >written by blind cooks and the ingredients are commonplace, although the >dishes are not. It also includes a very helpful list of common ingredient >substitutions. > >Read the full list of recipes - and order the book - at: >http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/OSCOOK.html > > >****** >To order any books, send payment to: >NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 >Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. >Or order any of our books online at >http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Nbp mailing list >Nbp at nbp.org > >PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message >and your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org . > >Visit us at http://www.nbp.org From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 15:39:08 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 08:39:08 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To all, I'm not really annoyed with the blio's built-in Text-to-speech reader not reading the book. That's not KNFB's fault. I am more annoyed that Jaws couldn't read the straight book text when it was on the screen. Best, Kirt On 3/1/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: > It was probably something that the author did because of that stupid five > letter word that, in my personal opinion, is the root of many of our > problems. > MONEY. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? > > >> :) It's not just that the Blio text to speech was turned off. But >> jaws wasn't able to read the book text on the screen. That to me >> seems like the bigger oversight. And, cause I'm mad and angry and >> fired up and stuff, I might as well shoot technical support a nice, >> friendly email. >> Best to all, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/1/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Good point. Maybe the author did it; it may not have anything to do with >>> the >>> Blio reader's function. >>> Kirt, I'd encourage you to report this problem. >>> Ash;ley >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 11:11 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? >>> >>> Hi Kirt and all, >>> >>> It's really unfortunate that the speech was turned off on the book you >>> bought from the BLIO store. Not knowing much about the BLIO myself, I >>> wonder if this is an oversight on KNFB's part or if this is just >>> something some authors have done that KNFB isn't aware of? I also >>> wonder if this happens with many of their books or just a few? If you >>> are motivated (you might not be, having found a better solution, but >>> if you are) you may want to report what happened to their technical >>> support with an email or phone call. >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> To everyone again, >>>> (Courtney, I'll email you soon) >>>> It's official. The Kindel beats the Blio for accessibility. I've >>>> never used the thing and I'm reading ok. (amazon actually has >>>> documentation for the Kindel accessible plugin, unlike our very own >>>> KNFB blio) So...yeah, maybe law suits are good every now and again. >>>> And maybe KNFB needs a good wakeup call...I know I'm going to be >>>> skeptical of anything else they put out after this debacle. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/1/11, Courtney Stover wrote: >>>>> Kurt, >>>>> >>>>> I can tell you from personal experience that the Kindle AP is >>>>> phenomenal! Yes, there are definite problems; the navigation needs >>>>> some work; it's hard to navigate by chapter instead of page etc. etc., >>>>> but everything I've tried reading is accessible. The voice isn't that >>>>> great, but it's definitely readable. >>>>> >>>>> If you have questions, feel free to E-mail me off list at >>>>> cstover165 at gmail.com I certainly don't know everything, but I'll do >>>>> my best to help with what I do, and not to sound arrogant, I'm a very >>>>> good researcher, so if I don't know something, I should be able to >>>>> find out how to do it within twenty-four hours. I do quite a bit of >>>>> free-lance tutoring of blind individuals on mainstream technologies >>>>> and am planning to add this to my services list soon, so any questions >>>>> you may have would also be very helpful in terms of understanding what >>>>> obstacles my students will face, and what general areas I should cover >>>>> in the lessons. >>>>> Courtney >>>>> >>>>> On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>> Dear List, >>>>>> First...I'm breaking my vow of NABS abstainance! I'm just too >>>>>> weak-willed. Anyway...today I'm here to vent about a few things, so >>>>>> if you don't want to read I understand. >>>>>> First...isn't it ironic how the Blio reader was marketed by the NFB >>>>>> as the biggest thing since sliced bread? It was supposed to totally >>>>>> transform reading for blind consumers! And guess what? I downloaded >>>>>> the accessibility version, bought a 16 dollar book that just came out >>>>>> today (Kingkiller Chronicle, if there are any other fantasy geeks on >>>>>> here), and hit the "read aloud" button...only to find out the >>>>>> publisher hadn't authorized text to speech reading. Then I thought >>>>>> "no matter, it's a product that the NFB helped develop. Surely I can >>>>>> have jaws read the plain text in the book." Only to find out >>>>>> that...guess what? It won't. I did a little bit of messing around in >>>>>> the application and couldn't figure it out. I'm a little >>>>>> disappointed. >>>>>> But I want the book tonight! So here's to wasting another 16 >>>>>> dollars, downloading the Kindle accessible app, and hoping it works >>>>>> ok. Wouldn't it be kind of poetic if Amazon, after being sued, makes >>>>>> a more accessible product than a company run in part by the NFB? >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Arielle Silverman >>> President, National Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: 602-502-2255 >>> Email: >>> nabs.president at gmail.com >>> Website: >>> www.nabslink.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From jim at knfbreader.com Wed Mar 2 17:34:22 2011 From: jim at knfbreader.com (James Gashel) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 10:34:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Using Blio Message-ID: <001001cbd900$12468530$36d38f90$@com> All - This message is being sent to explain how Blio is accessible with all books in our free books section or in the bookstore. According to Kirt's message posted to this list on Mar. 1, he purchased a book in the Blio bookstore but found that he could not read that book with Blio. He noted that the read aloud function was blocked by not having permission from the publisher, and using JAWS to read the book wouldn't work either. Regarding use of the read aloud feature, what Kirt found is likely to be the case with some but not all of the books in the Blio bookstore. However, the read aloud feature is really not our primary or intended means of accessibility. Nonetheless, this feature will be available on all books in the future as long as the computer you are using has a screen reader. Regarding Kirt's second point, every book in the Blio bookstore can be read successfully with JAWS, either version 11 or 12. If you find that this is not the case it is likely that the accessibility option on the welcome screen has not been checked. One quick way to know if the accessibility checkbox has been checked is to determine if the books in your Blio library display as a grid or display as a list. The list view, rather than the grid, is an indicator that accessibility is checked, and JAWS should then read every book. JAWS will just say "blank" when an arrow key is pressed inside a book if the accessibility checkbox has not been checked. If accessibility has not been selected on the welcome screen, and the welcome screen is no longer available, you can turn it on in the settings menu. Just press the alt key for the applications menu and arrow down to settings and press enter. Once in the settings menu, arrow down to advanced and tab across to accessibility mode and then check the box. Then tab further to the right to close settings and open a book from your library. At this point you will find that JAWS will work and the book can be read with the usual JAWS keyboard commands. For further help in using Blio please send an email message to support at knfbreader.com. Hope this helps! Best, James Gashel From jsorozco at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 17:53:26 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 12:53:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using Blio In-Reply-To: <001001cbd900$12468530$36d38f90$@com> References: <001001cbd900$12468530$36d38f90$@com> Message-ID: I know people have complained about Blio. Yet, I'm glad there's yet one more option to access literature. Competition is good, and better that we have companies making it a priority than to have us be made an afterthought. I've not checked out the service myself, mostly on account of already having a sufficient number of options, but it's something worth considering. I hope there'll be an iOS app coming out in the near future. Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From jim at knfbreader.com Wed Mar 2 18:02:43 2011 From: jim at knfbreader.com (James Gashel) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 11:02:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Using Blio In-Reply-To: References: <001001cbd900$12468530$36d38f90$@com> Message-ID: <001e01cbd904$07e62150$17b263f0$@com> Thanks Joe. My purpose in sending a general response to Kirt's message was to explain how Blio is accessible. Obviously I would like to see everyone reading books with Blio, but mainly I wanted Kirt and everyone else to know that any book they buy or download for free can be read and is accessible. The fact that Kirt had the experience he reported is clearly important to address so others will have a smoother introduction to Blio in the future, so thanks to Kirt for bringing this up. Best, James Gashel -----Original Message----- From: Joe Orozco [mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 10:53 AM To: jim at knfbreader.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: RE: [nabs-l] Using Blio I know people have complained about Blio. Yet, I'm glad there's yet one more option to access literature. Competition is good, and better that we have companies making it a priority than to have us be made an afterthought. I've not checked out the service myself, mostly on account of already having a sufficient number of options, but it's something worth considering. I hope there'll be an iOS app coming out in the near future. Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From jj at bestmidi.com Wed Mar 2 18:36:32 2011 From: jj at bestmidi.com (J.J. Meddaugh) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 13:36:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using Blio References: <001001cbd900$12468530$36d38f90$@com> <001e01cbd904$07e62150$17b263f0$@com> Message-ID: James, I'm glad to see Blio making some great progress. I know it seems to work reasonably well with other screen readers currently and this is also good to see. I don't think having too many choices for accessible books is a problem either, especially considering the options just a year ago. Looking forward to the future, and perhaps an Android app. J.J. Meddaugh - A T Guys Your source for Code Factory, the iBill, KNFB Reader, Sendero GPS, audio games, braillers, and more! http://www.atguys.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Gashel" To: ; "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Cc: "Hai Nguyen Ly" Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 1:02 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Using Blio > Thanks Joe. My purpose in sending a general response to Kirt's message > was > to explain how Blio is accessible. Obviously I would like to see everyone > reading books with Blio, but mainly I wanted Kirt and everyone else to > know > that any book they buy or download for free can be read and is accessible. > > The fact that Kirt had the experience he reported is clearly important to > address so others will have a smoother introduction to Blio in the future, > so thanks to Kirt for bringing this up. > > Best, > > James Gashel > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joe Orozco [mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 10:53 AM > To: jim at knfbreader.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing > list' > Subject: RE: [nabs-l] Using Blio > > I know people have complained about Blio. Yet, I'm glad there's yet one > more option to access literature. Competition is good, and better that we > have companies making it a priority than to have us be made an > afterthought. > I've not checked out the service myself, mostly on account of already > having > a sufficient number of options, but it's something worth considering. I > hope there'll be an iOS app coming out in the near future. > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com > From gcazares10 at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 18:57:20 2011 From: gcazares10 at gmail.com (Gabriel Cazares) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 12:57:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] =?windows-1252?q?Fwd=3A_=5BNfbnet-master-list=5D_Blind_D?= =?windows-1252?q?river_Challenge=99_to_Appear_on_NBC=92s_Today_Sho?= =?windows-1252?q?w!?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Freeh, Jessica" Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 12:24:07 -0600 Subject: [Nfbnet-master-list] Blind Driver Challenge™ to Appear on NBC’s Today Show! To: nfbnet-master-list at nfbnet.org Blind Driver Challenge™ to Appear on NBC’s Today Show! The National Federation of the Blind’s groundbreaking Blind Driver Challenge™ initiative will be featured on NBC’s Today on Sunday, March 6! Tune in to see Mark Riccobono talk about the recent historic developments of the Blind Driver Challenge™, including the public demonstration in which he drove a car equipped with a nonvisual interface, successfully and independently navigating the road course section of the famed Daytona International Speedway. On Sundays Today is typically aired live on NBC from 8:00 a.m. to 9:00 a.m. Eastern Standard Time, but please check your local listings. You will not want to miss the NFB Blind Driver Challenge™ on Today, the biggest morning news and talk show in America! -- Gabriel M. Cazares, 2nd Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students (TABS) www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html Phone: 713-581-0619 "Of course, loyalty to one's friends is an important principle. But so is writing what you believe--otherwise, why bother to write at all?"-Arianna Huffington From trillian551 at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 19:30:49 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 14:30:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] powerpoint commands In-Reply-To: <292714.14087.qm@web162014.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <292714.14087.qm@web162014.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi! So I'm using powerpoint 2007, but I think the basic menus are very similar. What I do is go the the slide show menu, and hit start show. That way, it goes directly to hte main body of the slide. If you hit your right application key, you can go the next slide, previous, or choose a slide number even. Also, if you just his insert_f1 jaws provides a pretty good built in guide for powerpoint. Hope this helps. Mary F On 3/2/11, Anmol Bhatia wrote: > > > > > Hello nabs, > I am trying to read some powerpoint slides, but I am having > a hard time getting jaws to read me the content on the > slides. Does anyone have a lisgt of key strokes for > powerpoint in Microsoft 2003 and would not mind emailing > those to me? If you could email me this I would appreciate > it. > thanks > Anmol > > I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me > sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but > it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. > Hellen Keller > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 19:38:01 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 13:38:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? Message-ID: <006c01cbd911$583179e0$08946da0$@com> Kirt, Do you have the accessibility option checked? If not, JAWS won't read. As you say, the text to speech function can be opted out of by authors/publishers, but all books should be readable by JAWS or another screenreader. And, of course, the irony of the initial inaccessible launch wasn't lost on anybody, but it seems to have been rectified. I'm sure Amazon found it amusing though. Finally, regarding the root of all evil, money: not to get all Ayn Rand on you listers, but please recognize that the profit motive is what has spurred innovation and product development, and without it we wouldn't have the plethora of technologies that we enjoy. Capitalism is good. It must be regulated and smoothed out around the edges, but it has created wealth and a standard of living that would have never been possible without it. Sorry, totally off topic, I know. Take care, Sean From steve.jacobson at visi.com Wed Mar 2 19:28:27 2011 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2011 13:28:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kirt, Did you say which version of JFW you are using? Accessibility with this and some other products will only work if you have a fairly recent version. I believe you have to have version 11 or 12, but it could even be you have to have version 12. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Wed, 2 Mar 2011 08:39:08 -0700, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >To all, > I'm not really annoyed with the blio's built-in Text-to-speech >reader not reading the book. That's not KNFB's fault. I am more >annoyed that Jaws couldn't read the straight book text when it was on >the screen. > Best, >Kirt >On 3/1/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> It was probably something that the author did because of that stupid five >> letter word that, in my personal opinion, is the root of many of our >> problems. >> MONEY. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 9:28 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? >> >> >>> :) It's not just that the Blio text to speech was turned off. But >>> jaws wasn't able to read the book text on the screen. That to me >>> seems like the bigger oversight. And, cause I'm mad and angry and >>> fired up and stuff, I might as well shoot technical support a nice, >>> friendly email. >>> Best to all, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/1/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>> Good point. Maybe the author did it; it may not have anything to do with >>>> the >>>> Blio reader's function. >>>> Kirt, I'd encourage you to report this problem. >>>> Ash;ley >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Arielle Silverman >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 11:11 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic? >>>> >>>> Hi Kirt and all, >>>> >>>> It's really unfortunate that the speech was turned off on the book you >>>> bought from the BLIO store. Not knowing much about the BLIO myself, I >>>> wonder if this is an oversight on KNFB's part or if this is just >>>> something some authors have done that KNFB isn't aware of? I also >>>> wonder if this happens with many of their books or just a few? If you >>>> are motivated (you might not be, having found a better solution, but >>>> if you are) you may want to report what happened to their technical >>>> support with an email or phone call. >>>> >>>> Arielle >>>> >>>> On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> To everyone again, >>>>> (Courtney, I'll email you soon) >>>>> It's official. The Kindel beats the Blio for accessibility. I've >>>>> never used the thing and I'm reading ok. (amazon actually has >>>>> documentation for the Kindel accessible plugin, unlike our very own >>>>> KNFB blio) So...yeah, maybe law suits are good every now and again. >>>>> And maybe KNFB needs a good wakeup call...I know I'm going to be >>>>> skeptical of anything else they put out after this debacle. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/1/11, Courtney Stover wrote: >>>>>> Kurt, >>>>>> >>>>>> I can tell you from personal experience that the Kindle AP is >>>>>> phenomenal! Yes, there are definite problems; the navigation needs >>>>>> some work; it's hard to navigate by chapter instead of page etc. etc., >>>>>> but everything I've tried reading is accessible. The voice isn't that >>>>>> great, but it's definitely readable. >>>>>> >>>>>> If you have questions, feel free to E-mail me off list at >>>>>> cstover165 at gmail.com I certainly don't know everything, but I'll do >>>>>> my best to help with what I do, and not to sound arrogant, I'm a very >>>>>> good researcher, so if I don't know something, I should be able to >>>>>> find out how to do it within twenty-four hours. I do quite a bit of >>>>>> free-lance tutoring of blind individuals on mainstream technologies >>>>>> and am planning to add this to my services list soon, so any questions >>>>>> you may have would also be very helpful in terms of understanding what >>>>>> obstacles my students will face, and what general areas I should cover >>>>>> in the lessons. >>>>>> Courtney >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/1/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>>>> Dear List, >>>>>>> First...I'm breaking my vow of NABS abstainance! I'm just too >>>>>>> weak-willed. Anyway...today I'm here to vent about a few things, so >>>>>>> if you don't want to read I understand. >>>>>>> First...isn't it ironic how the Blio reader was marketed by the NFB >>>>>>> as the biggest thing since sliced bread? It was supposed to totally >>>>>>> transform reading for blind consumers! And guess what? I downloaded >>>>>>> the accessibility version, bought a 16 dollar book that just came out >>>>>>> today (Kingkiller Chronicle, if there are any other fantasy geeks on >>>>>>> here), and hit the "read aloud" button...only to find out the >>>>>>> publisher hadn't authorized text to speech reading. Then I thought >>>>>>> "no matter, it's a product that the NFB helped develop. Surely I can >>>>>>> have jaws read the plain text in the book." Only to find out >>>>>>> that...guess what? It won't. I did a little bit of messing around in >>>>>>> the application and couldn't figure it out. I'm a little >>>>>>> disappointed. >>>>>>> But I want the book tonight! So here's to wasting another 16 >>>>>>> dollars, downloading the Kindle accessible app, and hoping it works >>>>>>> ok. Wouldn't it be kind of poetic if Amazon, after being sued, makes >>>>>>> a more accessible product than a company run in part by the NFB? >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/liamskitten%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Arielle Silverman >>>> President, National Association of Blind Students >>>> Phone: 602-502-2255 >>>> Email: >>>> nabs.president at gmail.com >>>> Website: >>>> www.nabslink.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 20:16:49 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 15:16:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] powerpoint commands In-Reply-To: References: <292714.14087.qm@web162014.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Another option would be to convert the powerpoint to outline form, then paste the outline into a word document. To convert to outline form, hit Control+Shift+Tab after you have selected all. Then you should be in outline view, from which point you can copy and paste to microsoft word. Hope This Helps: Patrick On 3/2/11, Mary Fernandez wrote: > Hi! > So I'm using powerpoint 2007, but I think the basic menus are very > similar. What I do is go the the slide show menu, and hit start show. > That way, it goes directly to hte main body of the slide. If you hit > your right application key, you can go the next slide, previous, or > choose a slide number even. Also, if you just his insert_f1 jaws > provides a pretty good built in guide for powerpoint. Hope this helps. > Mary F > > On 3/2/11, Anmol Bhatia wrote: >> >> >> >> >> Hello nabs, >> I am trying to read some powerpoint slides, but I am having >> a hard time getting jaws to read me the content on the >> slides. Does anyone have a lisgt of key strokes for >> powerpoint in Microsoft 2003 and would not mind emailing >> those to me? If you could email me this I would appreciate >> it. >> thanks >> Anmol >> >> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me >> sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but >> it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. >> Hellen Keller >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > President: Georgia Association of Blind Students > Emory University 2012 > P.O. Box 123056 > Atlanta Ga. > 30322 > Phone: 732-857-7004 > > "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much > rather you weren't doing it." > Terry Pratchett > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 21:19:27 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 14:19:27 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Using Blio In-Reply-To: References: <001001cbd900$12468530$36d38f90$@com> <001e01cbd904$07e62150$17b263f0$@com> Message-ID: James and all, I have to appologize. I made quite a few generalizations that were wrong based on one bad experience. And, I didn't have the accessibility mode turned on. So I hope my post was constructive, but I was angry at the time and spoke very much out of turn, after making some assumptions that were just silly. Next time, I'll double check before I make bold claims like that. Best, Kirt On 3/2/11, J.J. Meddaugh wrote: > James, I'm glad to see Blio making some great progress. I know it seems to > work reasonably well with other screen readers currently and this is also > good to see. I don't think having too many choices for accessible books is a > problem either, especially considering the options just a year ago. > Looking forward to the future, and perhaps an Android app. > > > J.J. Meddaugh - A T Guys > Your source for Code Factory, the iBill, KNFB Reader, Sendero GPS, audio > games, braillers, and more! > http://www.atguys.com > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "James Gashel" > To: ; "'National Association of Blind Students mailing > list'" > Cc: "Hai Nguyen Ly" > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 1:02 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Using Blio > > >> Thanks Joe. My purpose in sending a general response to Kirt's message >> was >> to explain how Blio is accessible. Obviously I would like to see everyone >> reading books with Blio, but mainly I wanted Kirt and everyone else to >> know >> that any book they buy or download for free can be read and is accessible. >> >> The fact that Kirt had the experience he reported is clearly important to >> address so others will have a smoother introduction to Blio in the future, >> so thanks to Kirt for bringing this up. >> >> Best, >> >> James Gashel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joe Orozco [mailto:jsorozco at gmail.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 10:53 AM >> To: jim at knfbreader.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list' >> Subject: RE: [nabs-l] Using Blio >> >> I know people have complained about Blio. Yet, I'm glad there's yet one >> more option to access literature. Competition is good, and better that we >> have companies making it a priority than to have us be made an >> afterthought. >> I've not checked out the service myself, mostly on account of already >> having >> a sufficient number of options, but it's something worth considering. I >> hope there'll be an iOS app coming out in the near future. >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jj%40bestmidi.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 21:40:11 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 15:40:11 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: If the book was not reading with BLIO, it most likely was the author or publishers fault and not the BLIO product itself. Believe me, I understand the frustration of not being able to access info especially literature. And I too am a fan of the King Killer Chronicle series, but research a complaint before becoming so combative. As we have seen with Kindel books, publishers and authors have the same ability to not allow a text-to-speech reading function. Until this issue is resolved, we will continue to encounter similar problems. JAWS should be able to read text unless, of course, the file is not created properly like inaccessible PDF's. But this was not a matter of such a creation. Perhaps JAWS was experiencing problems, or your computer was. Technology, like everything else, has its limits and does not always work. I feel your pain, but it might have been best if you had contacted KNFB before ranting and making accusations. It sounds like the creators of BLIO have answers that would have benefited your argument. Perhaps after following their directives, you can inform the list as to how it worked, and if you had better luck with the book. Bridgit BLIO itself appears to be a great option for print impaired readers, but if publishers do not comply, it is not the technologies fault. From kobycox at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 21:45:31 2011 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 15:45:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Isn't it ironic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5799B708-B548-4B4C-9F5C-6A9B5F78BD0D@gmail.com> Bridget Can you please email me off list? my email address is: kobycox at gmail.com Right back soon, Koby. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 2, 2011, at 3:40 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > If the book was not reading with BLIO, it most likely was the author or > publishers fault and not the BLIO product itself. Believe me, I > understand the frustration of not being able to access info especially > literature. And I too am a fan of the King Killer Chronicle series, but > research a complaint before becoming so combative. > > As we have seen with Kindel books, publishers and authors have the same > ability to not allow a text-to-speech reading function. Until this > issue is resolved, we will continue to encounter similar problems. > > JAWS should be able to read text unless, of course, the file is not > created properly like inaccessible PDF's. But this was not a matter of > such a creation. Perhaps JAWS was experiencing problems, or your > computer was. Technology, like everything else, has its limits and does > not always work. > > I feel your pain, but it might have been best if you had contacted KNFB > before ranting and making accusations. It sounds like the creators of > BLIO have answers that would have benefited your argument. > > Perhaps after following their directives, you can inform the list as to > how it worked, and if you had better luck with the book. > > Bridgit > > BLIO itself appears to be a great option for print impaired readers, but > if publishers do not comply, it is not the technologies fault. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 01:12:07 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2011 17:12:07 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs membership committee presents: Summer programs: a conference call. Message-ID: Hello NABS, It’s amazing how much stress we go through on a daily basis. Between homework, notetaking, tests, family, significant others where applicable, etc, the much-needed summer break seems so far away, but in fact, will be here before we know it. And thinking about it seems pointless because of what’s already on your plate. But what if you could have it taken care of and not have to think about it till you’re free, free, free? Perhaps your lovely membership committee can assist you in making your plans with this month’s conference call, all about summer programs at NFB training centers. Representatives from the Louisiana and Colorado centers, Blind Inc, and Blind Industries and Services of maryland will be on hand to talk about and answer questions about their respective programs. Who: The Membership Committee of the National Association of Blind Students What: Conference call on NFB summer programs When: March 6, 2011 at 7 p.m. ET. Where: (712) 775-7100, followed by access code 257963 Why: So that you can knock out your summer plans and coast through the rest of the academic year. Please spread the word and join us for an exciting call about a summer to look forward to. Beach attire optional. See you there. NABS Membership Committee -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 06:56:59 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 01:56:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google Calendar In-Reply-To: <4D6DE688.8040905@byronlee.com> References: <08D7E0E2-75C0-441C-9504-60F9E3062165@wavecable.com> <1A4346FF-2C2C-494D-9DD4-2A707FA23C25@mac.com> <5158F809-E695-407D-AEE4-1F2C7437643F@wavecable.com> <9D84634A-1FAA-4E51-BAB6-E0272022C49F@mac.com> <62C81EA1-1510-4943-850E-A0AD9E152F76@gmail.com> <4D6DE688.8040905@byronlee.com> Message-ID: <3E4F4FCF-AEA6-4D36-8DBD-EB3AC68DB9EF@gmail.com> Just use the calendar application on your iPhone. If you have a Mac, you can also use iCal to edit gmail calendars. On Mar 2, 2011, at 1:41 AM, Byron J. Lee wrote: > I need some help. I'm trying to use Google Calendar. Does anyone know if there's a standalone program, iphone app, or other such method of adding events to Google Calendar. I've found VERY little by googling the issue. Thanks for any help! > > sincerely, > Byron Lee > > _______________________________________________ > Electronics-talk mailing list > Electronics-talk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Electronics-talk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/electronics-talk_nfbnet.org/gymnastdave%40sbcglobal.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 11:06:41 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 06:06:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] powerpoint commands In-Reply-To: References: <292714.14087.qm@web162014.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: CTRL+Shift+tab? Thanks for that one! I always like to just convert to outline form, but do so by getting the powerpoints by e-mail and viewing it as HTML. This'll make it even easier for my teachers, since they could jst give me all of them at once! My teachers are pretty good about not using graphics that are necessary for the understanding (or like my psychology teacher does, put a caption under the picture that comes out in the HTML format, where there's no image for it to go with...an example would be "Graph 2.3," where 2.3 stands fort eh graph in the textbook that she uses [and she only uses graphs and charts fromt he textbook]). Thanks for that tip, On 3/2/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Another option would be to convert the powerpoint to outline form, > then paste the outline into a word document. To convert to outline > form, hit Control+Shift+Tab after you have selected all. Then you > should be in outline view, from which point you can copy and paste to > microsoft word. > Hope This Helps: > Patrick > > On 3/2/11, Mary Fernandez wrote: >> Hi! >> So I'm using powerpoint 2007, but I think the basic menus are very >> similar. What I do is go the the slide show menu, and hit start show. >> That way, it goes directly to hte main body of the slide. If you hit >> your right application key, you can go the next slide, previous, or >> choose a slide number even. Also, if you just his insert_f1 jaws >> provides a pretty good built in guide for powerpoint. Hope this helps. >> Mary F >> >> On 3/2/11, Anmol Bhatia wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Hello nabs, >>> I am trying to read some powerpoint slides, but I am having >>> a hard time getting jaws to read me the content on the >>> slides. Does anyone have a lisgt of key strokes for >>> powerpoint in Microsoft 2003 and would not mind emailing >>> those to me? If you could email me this I would appreciate >>> it. >>> thanks >>> Anmol >>> >>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me >>> sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but >>> it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. >>> Hellen Keller >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mary Fernandez >> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students >> Emory University 2012 >> P.O. Box 123056 >> Atlanta Ga. >> 30322 >> Phone: 732-857-7004 >> >> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much >> rather you weren't doing it." >> Terry Pratchett >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > -- ~Jewel Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com From graduate56 at juno.com Thu Mar 3 16:50:44 2011 From: graduate56 at juno.com (Melissa Green) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 09:50:44 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Easy but Bad Re: Parishable Food Items References: <19EC6A509E1D4C548F2B545CC472050D@OwnerPC><956E27B763F9441BB0ABFE663FA0FD85@stanford.edu> Message-ID: <5775A3AE98FA42549E14EA6B632CC885@melissa> I love my george foreman grill. I have also found the site directions for me very helpful. It was created by horizons for the blind. Blessings and kind regards, Melissa Green Each person must live their life as a model for others. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Easy but Bad Re: Parishable Food Items > The website > busycooks.about.com > has lots of great easy recipes, including a whole "microwave meals" > section and a whole "five ingredients or less" section. > > I'm not sure if these will work in dorm rooms, but George Foreman > grills are incredibly easy to use for cooking hamburgers or chicken > breasts. Just plug it in, put the meat inside, put the grease tray > underneath and take the meat out with a fork when it's done. > > Arielle > > On 2/27/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home wrote: >> Oh, and if you are cooking breakfast, eggs can also be cooked in the >> microwave, but not the best idea for a dorm room. If you do cook eggs, >> the >> best way is to scramble them and to keep stirring them. This is important >> for two reasons. First, they sometimes tend to kind of explode if you >> don't >> keep stirring them; very messy. Second, you end up with a ring of cooked >> egg >> around the outside and raw egg in the middle. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Katie Wang" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 10:53 AM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Easy but Bad Re: Parishable Food Items >> >> >>> Hi, nicole, >>> That's a very good point. I'm in the process of learning to cook so >>> any suggestions/tips about what to make in a microwave other than >>> packaged food would be much appreciated. I'm sure others on the list >>> will benefit as well. Thanks! >>> Katie >>> >>> On 2/27/11, Nicole B. Torcolini at Home >>> wrote: >>>> Just a friendly reminder that those easy-to-make microwave meals are >>>> often >>>> packed with sodium and other bad things. Not bad if you need something >>>> quick >>>> once in a while, but not the best thing to use as a main source of >>>> food. >>>> If >>>> anyone is interested in knowing how to make things in the microwave >>>> that >>>> don't just come out of a package, shoot me an email. >>>> >>>> Nicole >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Arielle Silverman" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 10:49 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Parishable Food Items >>>> >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> I don't think you need to worry too much about expiration dates. Dairy >>>>> products will give a telltale smell and/or taste signal when it's time >>>>> to throw them away. In my experience, if the milk smells and tastes >>>>> fine, it won't make you sick. For uncooked meats and perishable foods >>>>> like restaurant leftovers, my mother's rule that I've always followed >>>>> is to eat it or freeze it within 3-4 days of getting it. I am not sure >>>>> if this rule is too strict but I have found it pretty easy to follow >>>>> with a little planning. Once food is frozen it can be stored safely >>>>> for a long time; just Braille your freezer bag or remember what it >>>>> feels like. Generally, I think just using some common sense like >>>>> keeping track of approximately when you bought something and paying >>>>> attention to the texture and smell of foods will prevent most >>>>> problems. >>>>> >>>>> By the way, I just learned about a website called >>>>> www.directionsforme.com >>>>> which contains a searchable database of food package labels. So you >>>>> can easily look up the preparation instructions for frozen meals, easy >>>>> mac, Ramen, etc. or even read ingredient lists and nutritional info if >>>>> you are so inclined. They also have package labels for >>>>> over-the-counter medications so you can verify how many Advil or cold >>>>> pills you need to take, how often you can safely redose and any other >>>>> pertinent drug information. >>>>> >>>>> Arielle >>>>> >>>>> On 2/26/11, Cindy Bennett wrote: >>>>>> I know exactly what you're going through. Mini fridges don't havev a >>>>>> lot of space, and especially the mini freezers in the top of the mini >>>>>> fridges don't always keep things frozen. And, being on a meal plan >>>>>> but >>>>>> wanting to have food options for when the meal plan is not convenient >>>>>> is hard to balance, because the meal plan was expensive, so you don't >>>>>> want to spend a lot of money on other food let alone see that money >>>>>> go >>>>>> to waste with food going bad. And that combined with the fact that a >>>>>> meal plan causes you to eat your own food less often can make things >>>>>> complicated. The previous advice is good. One thing that I have found >>>>>> that might be unique to where I go to school is that the perishable >>>>>> food found in the convenient stores on campus tends to expire sooner. >>>>>> I think this is the case because it wouldn't be efficient to keep >>>>>> ordering more stock when they don't sell it quickly, but purchasing >>>>>> food at the convenience stores is convenient, because you can use >>>>>> dollars from your meal plan. Like I said, especially at larger >>>>>> niversities with more on campus students, this might be less of a >>>>>> case, but if you've been having a problem with on campus stores, try >>>>>> some off campus. Also, when you go shopping, you can ask whoever is >>>>>> helping you to look for the latest expiration date available. >>>>>> Sometimes stores will place food that is closer to expiration towards >>>>>> the front of shelves which might hide longer lasting products behind. >>>>>> >>>>>> This might sound obvious, but if you bring home leftovers from a >>>>>> restaurant, take it out of the crappy styrofoam and store it in a >>>>>> sealable container. It will last way longer. >>>>>> >>>>>> And one thing that I have found for nonrefridgerated food such as >>>>>> bread is that keeping it in cabinets helps. You can even keep bread >>>>>> in >>>>>> the freezer for a while granted your freezer is big enough for a >>>>>> loaf. >>>>>> >>>>>> But I totally understand what you are going through, and for that >>>>>> reason, I found myself not really buying fruit, but grabbing a few >>>>>> extra pieces for the next couple of days when leaving the dining >>>>>> hall, >>>>>> and mainly consuming nonperishable foods such as soup or easy mac in >>>>>> my room. >>>>>> >>>>>> And you will probably notice that for money and/or convenience >>>>>> reasons >>>>>> that you will become less paranoid about food. I'm not saying you >>>>>> should do this with dairy products, but if pizza has been left out or >>>>>> something, I definitely consider it a second meal before throwing it >>>>>> out. I would have absolutely never done this before college. It is >>>>>> all >>>>>> about judgment and your comfort level. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cindy >>>>>> >>>>>> On 2/26/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Chelsea, >>>>>>> That is a little hard to know. If you're in a dorm, why not ask >>>>>>> someone >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> expiration date? >>>>>>> If you go shopping every two weeks, you probably have nothing to >>>>>>> worry >>>>>>> about. >>>>>>> Over time you'll sense when things go bad; as I haven't lived on my >>>>>>> own >>>>>>> much, living in the dorm with the new fridge was new to me too. >>>>>>> Generally, things have a certain shelf life. >>>>>>> Sounds like you mainly buy dairy products: yogurt, milk, etc. Maybe >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> buy >>>>>>> lunch meat and bread and cheese to have in place of cafeteria food, >>>>>>> sometimes. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Well for milk, I heard it lasts a few weeks. >>>>>>> You can smell or taste when it goes bad. >>>>>>> For yogurt, I imagine it would smell bad too. >>>>>>> Yogurt should last a couple weeks provided you seal the container >>>>>>> tight >>>>>>> after using it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lunch meat lasts over a week. Cheese sliced up lasts >>>>>>> a week at least. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One thing is I cannot tell if bread is moldy; it doesn't smell or >>>>>>> feel >>>>>>> different, unless its real gotten moldy, but just a little bit I >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>> know. >>>>>>> So I've just asked someone or relied on how long its been around. >>>>>>> Like >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> had this bread six days, its still good. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hth, >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Chelsea Cook >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 10:58 PM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Parishable Food Items >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> One of the coolest things about college dorm rooms is ... the mini >>>>>>> fridge! However, the stuff I put into mine sometimes gives me >>>>>>> trouble. >>>>>>> How do you guys manage milk and yogurt and stuff like that in terms >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> expiration dates? Usually, since it's just me, I go shopping about >>>>>>> every two weeks and try to get items that will expire in the same >>>>>>> window, but it's still tricky and I haven't gotten it down to a >>>>>>> science yet. (Play on words, haha!) Anyway, any tips short of >>>>>>> writing >>>>>>> down everything would be helpful. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> Chelsea >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Chelsea Cook >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Virginia Tech 2015; Physics Major >>>>>>> cook2010 at vt.edu >>>>>>> "I ask you to look both ways. For the road to a knowledge of the >>>>>>> stars leads through the atom; and important knowledge of the atom >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> been reached through >>>>>>> the stars." >>>>>>> Sir Arthur Eddington, British astrophysicist (1882-1944), Stars and >>>>>>> Atoms (1928), Lecture 1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/clb5590%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Cindy Bennett >>>>>> uNC Wilmington Psychology major >>>>>> >>>>>> clb5590 at gmail.com >>>>>> 828.989.5383 >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Arielle Silverman >>>>> President, National Association of Blind Students >>>>> Phone: 602-502-2255 >>>>> Email: >>>>> nabs.president at gmail.com >>>>> Website: >>>>> www.nabslink.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ntorcolini%40wavecable.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/graduate56%40juno.com > > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Mar 3 20:18:38 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 14:18:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Check out my latest blog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, Please check out my latest blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/2011/03/03/through-the-eyes-of-a-child / Bridgit P From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 3 21:07:02 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 16:07:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using Blio In-Reply-To: References: <001001cbd900$12468530$36d38f90$@com> Message-ID: <3ED4F1A0E5DB4E6B9274F6A7AAA8C2A2@OwnerPC> This must be new. Does Blio work on the computer and what books do you read with it? Are they already audio books? -----Original Message----- From: Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2011 12:53 PM To: jim at knfbreader.com ; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Using Blio I know people have complained about Blio. Yet, I'm glad there's yet one more option to access literature. Competition is good, and better that we have companies making it a priority than to have us be made an afterthought. I've not checked out the service myself, mostly on account of already having a sufficient number of options, but it's something worth considering. I hope there'll be an iOS app coming out in the near future. Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Thu Mar 3 21:28:45 2011 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 14:28:45 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: White House Fall Internship Program Application Message-ID: <1781CCDD54D54C69B66FDFF3DAAC6AA7@labarre> White House Fall Internship Program Application FYI and please pass onto appropriate candidates. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: White House Disability Group To: slabarre at labarrelaw.com Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: White House Fall Internship Program Application Please take note of the below and circulate and help our internship program be inclusive of students with disabilities. The application deadline for the White House Internship Program’s fall 2011 session is Sunday, March 13. Please take the time to think of five future young leaders you believe would serve as great White House Interns, and personally encourage them to apply. Below is more information that might be helpful to prospective White House Interns: - Check out this blog from a former White House intern with a disability: http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/02/24/people-you-meet-white-house-internship-program - Visit the White House Internship website: http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/internships/ - Apply to the White House Internship program: http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/internships/apply/ - Learn more about the selection process: http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/internships/selection/ A White House Internship provides a unique opportunity to gain valuable professional experience and build leadership skills. This hands-on program is designed to mentor and cultivate today’s young leaders, strengthen their understanding of the Executive Office of the President and prepare them for future public service involvement. Please encourage all eligible young leaders to take advantage of this incredible opportunity! The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · Washington DC 20500 · 202-456-1111 From jorgeapaez at mac.com Thu Mar 3 21:30:54 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 16:30:54 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] software for sale Message-ID: Hi all: Sorry if this is a bit off topic, but I have a great piece of Software Bento, which is a personal database (E.G., keep track of contacts, calendars, projects and the like), that I don't use, so I'm selling it to anyone who wants it. Its in almost new condition, with original box and everything--its just that I don't use it and I know there might be someone here who could benefit from it. Its a Mac-only program, which is the only drawback. My price is $25. Anyone who wants to talk, please email me off list, please email me only if you're serious though. Thanks, Jorge From jwiley at UIC.EDU Thu Mar 3 22:12:40 2011 From: jwiley at UIC.EDU (Jennifer Wiley) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 16:12:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Lab Coordinator: Temple University Infant Lab Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20110303161141.031e7af0@mail.uic.edu> Lab Coordinator: Temple University Infant Lab The Temple University Infant Laboratory at Ambler anticipates hiring a laboratory coordinator, a position presenting diverse opportunities to participate in cutting-edge developmental research. The Temple University Infant Lab at Ambler, directed by Professors Kathryn Hirsh-Pasek and Nora Newcombe, conducts research on language acquisition, play and the arts, spatial development, and memory development. This position requires assisting with research primarily on language development, though opportunities to assist with research in other domains may arise. The position has a 1-year minimum, with the possibility of extending to 2 or more years. Duties include: * Stimuli creation, subject recruitment and scheduling, data collection, coding and analysis with children aged 2 months to 6 years * Organizing and sharing research findings at collaborative lab meetings and in federal grant reports * Management of IRB protocols * Research grants administration and accounting * Hiring, training, and supervising undergraduate and volunteer research assistants Lab coordinators also frequently have the opportunity to be collaborators in research that will be presented at major conferences and published in major journals. Required qualifications: * Bachelor's degree in Psychology, Neuroscience, Linguistics or related field Preferred qualifications: * Six months experience working with children between the ages of two months to seven years in a research setting * Computer skills and proficiency with MS Office and SPSS/SAS software packages * Excellent communication, interpersonal, leadership, multi-tasking and organizational skills * The ability to interact with a diverse population of program participants * Ability to work independently as well as part of a team * Ability to travel to off-site locations that may not be accessible by public transportation If interested, please forward a resume to the infant lab coordinator at melissa.hansen at temple.edu. From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 22:25:11 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 17:25:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Hearn Award Message-ID: <216D6A73DEEA412E92F728670BE824D3@Rufus> Hearne Award. American Bar Association Commission on Mental and Physical Disability Law, in partnership with Starbucks is announcing its annual award in the amount of $1,000 to an individual or organization that has performed exemplary service in the furtherance of access to justice for people with disabilities. The program invites the nomination of individuals and organizations that have made significant contributions to furthering the rights, dignity, and access to justice for people with disabilities. Deadline for application is March 31, 20011. Visit http://new.abanet.org/disability/Pages/Hearne.aspx for complete program information and the nomination form. Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From jim at knfbreader.com Fri Mar 4 00:50:25 2011 From: jim at knfbreader.com (James Gashel) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 17:50:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] e-books in university libraries? Message-ID: <00ca01cbda06$26bed290$743c77b0$@com> Hello list members -- Thinking about how Blio can be positioned to best serve students, I am interested in hearing from anyone whose college/university library provides e-books for loan. In asking this question I am not necessarily referring to textbooks but rather to the hundreds of thousands of reference and research materials available at most postsecondary institution libraries. Many public libraries now provide an e-book service, often through an affiliation with overdrive, which appears to be the largest book seller in this space. However, I don't know if a similar kind of service exist with respect to postsecondary libraries and would like to hear from anyone with experience along this line. Best Regards, James Gashel Vice President of Business Development K-NFB Reading Technology, Inc. Direct phone: (720) 878-4248 Fax: (781) 263-9999 Skype: james.gashel email: jim at knfbreader.com http://www.knfbreader.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 01:04:11 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 20:04:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reliable readers Message-ID: <77F7D5C076744C1086AA411C2A43889E@OwnerPC> Hi all, Well I hope your semester is going well. I am frustrated with not getting reliable readers. Why is it that they read better and say they have more availabality than they actually do in the interview? I do not have an accessible grammar book. My school cannot scan books; Nova said they would have to outsource to scan the book; even then I would not have full access to the book because you have to see what is underlined, italicized, and marked to understand the sentence, like what is the subject or what is the prepositional phrase. The editing book has tables and other things that lend themselves to being explained by someone as well. Anyway, so I get a reader who I thought was great; he read fluently with little mistakes; I thought he could work Monday and Wednesdays; then it became Monday because of his other part time job; that was okay; we ended up meeting at my home on weekends. So then I found out he cannot read two evenings after all during the week because he has to watch his kids while his wife is in class. We had talked about reading one weekend day and one day during the week. Well, anyway, he is uncommiting after this week because he found a full time job. I kept working with him for a month because again he was the best reader; he projected; he was articulate and read at a good pace. So I figured I’d take him on weekends if that was all he could do. At nova, you see many foreign students of Asian and Hispanic dissent. A few who applied either were bad readers or you could not understand them with accents. So after careful thinking I selected a few, one of which is this adult reader I’m describing. He is not actually a student, but heard the job through his wife; he struck me as very mature in the interview. Now I have to pick from a handful of backup people; I hope they are still available; we will see. What did you do about unreliable readers? Just get new ones? Why is it that people cannot be up front about their schedules and other life commitments in the interview? I don’t understand why this guy volunteered to read at my home as opposed to driving over to school, when he had to watch a kid twice a week and he knew I had class Wednesday night! Is there any way to judge reliability and dependability in the interview? Also, do you have them read more than one short sample? Maybe I should; the problem I see with one sample is they may find that subject easy because they studied a similar class or they don’t see difficult words. Do you ask them to demonstrate any ddirection skills in reading? I mean things like asking them to skip something, skim for Joe Smith or something, or look up a concept from the index? Do you all use readers to research? Perhaps helping you skim articles for relevance? If so, how do you know which of your readers can search databases well or has the skill to skim matterial? Okay, just had to rant some. This is not the first schedule conflict with a reader, but its irritating. I also had a reader with schedule conflicts because of her sport or other job. I ask when they are available in the interview and let them know my schedule too. I also try to bbe a little flexible about times to read but I want to do it certain days I can get to campus, preferabily days I’m already there. Ashley From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Mar 4 01:17:04 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 19:17:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] reliable readers In-Reply-To: <77F7D5C076744C1086AA411C2A43889E@OwnerPC> References: <77F7D5C076744C1086AA411C2A43889E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, I've had some similar problems. I have a reliable reader, though. It helps, when the reader happens to be your pastor, (lol.) When he reads the Bible, he doesn't stumble over the words. If someone can do that with the KJV, Bible, they can do that with an English textbook. He's also a student. Isn't this book available in audio from RFBND? Please let me know, because that might be a better deal for you. It might be available on www.bookshare.org, as well. Blessings, Joshua On 3/3/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > > Well I hope your semester is going well. I am frustrated with not getting > reliable readers. > Why is it that they read better and say they have more availabality than > they actually do in the interview? > > I do not have an accessible grammar book. My school cannot scan books; Nova > said they would have to outsource to scan the book; even then I would not > have full access to the book because you have to see what is underlined, > italicized, and marked to understand the sentence, like what is the subject > or what is the prepositional phrase. The editing book has tables and other > things that lend themselves to being explained by someone as well. > > Anyway, so I get a reader who I thought was great; he read fluently with > little mistakes; I thought he could work Monday and Wednesdays; then it > became Monday because of his other part time job; that was okay; we ended up > meeting at my home on weekends. > > So then I found out he cannot read two evenings after all during the week > because he has to watch his kids while his wife is in class. > We had talked about reading one weekend day and one day during the week. > > Well, anyway, he is uncommiting after this week because he found a full time > job. > I kept working with him for a month because again he was the best reader; he > projected; he was articulate and read at a good pace. > So I figured I’d take him on weekends if that was all he could do. > At nova, you see many foreign students of Asian and Hispanic dissent. > A few who applied either were bad readers or you could not understand them > with accents. > So after careful thinking I selected a few, one of which is this adult > reader I’m describing. He is not actually a student, but heard the job > through his wife; he struck me as very mature in the interview. > > Now I have to pick from a handful of backup people; I hope they are still > available; we will see. > > What did you do about unreliable readers? Just get new ones? Why is it > that people cannot be up front about their schedules and other life > commitments in the interview? I don’t understand why this guy volunteered > to read at my home as opposed to driving over to school, when he had to > watch a kid twice a week and he knew I had class Wednesday night! > > Is there any way to judge reliability and dependability in the interview? > Also, do you have them read more than one short sample? > Maybe I should; the problem I see with one sample is they may find that > subject easy because they studied a similar class or they don’t see > difficult words. > Do you ask them to demonstrate any ddirection skills in reading? I mean > things like asking them to skip something, skim for Joe Smith or something, > or look up a concept from the index? > Do you all use readers to research? Perhaps helping you skim articles for > relevance? > If so, how do you know which of your readers can search databases well or > has the skill to skim matterial? > > Okay, just had to rant some. This is not the first schedule conflict with a > reader, but its irritating. > I also had a reader with schedule conflicts because of her sport or other > job. > I ask when they are available in the interview and let them know my schedule > too. I also try to bbe a little flexible about times to read but I want to > do it certain days I can get to campus, preferabily days I’m already there. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 02:11:28 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 21:11:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reliable readers In-Reply-To: References: <77F7D5C076744C1086AA411C2A43889E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <91C5391BA6F04B31814206FABB2ACC63@OwnerPC> Joshua, Yes the KjV Bible is a tough one to read! Anyway, no the books I needed are not avaialble from RFB. If they were, I'd certainly order them! Student readers can be unreliable; glad I'm not the only one with issues. -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 8:17 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] reliable readers Ashley, I've had some similar problems. I have a reliable reader, though. It helps, when the reader happens to be your pastor, (lol.) When he reads the Bible, he doesn't stumble over the words. If someone can do that with the KJV, Bible, they can do that with an English textbook. He's also a student. Isn't this book available in audio from RFBND? Please let me know, because that might be a better deal for you. It might be available on www.bookshare.org, as well. Blessings, Joshua On 3/3/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > > Well I hope your semester is going well. I am frustrated with not getting > reliable readers. > Why is it that they read better and say they have more availabality than > they actually do in the interview? > > I do not have an accessible grammar book. My school cannot scan books; > Nova > said they would have to outsource to scan the book; even then I would not > have full access to the book because you have to see what is underlined, > italicized, and marked to understand the sentence, like what is the > subject > or what is the prepositional phrase. The editing book has tables and > other > things that lend themselves to being explained by someone as well. > > Anyway, so I get a reader who I thought was great; he read fluently with > little mistakes; I thought he could work Monday and Wednesdays; then it > became Monday because of his other part time job; that was okay; we ended > up > meeting at my home on weekends. > > So then I found out he cannot read two evenings after all during the week > because he has to watch his kids while his wife is in class. > We had talked about reading one weekend day and one day during the week. > > Well, anyway, he is uncommiting after this week because he found a full > time > job. > I kept working with him for a month because again he was the best reader; > he > projected; he was articulate and read at a good pace. > So I figured I’d take him on weekends if that was all he could do. > At nova, you see many foreign students of Asian and Hispanic dissent. > A few who applied either were bad readers or you could not understand them > with accents. > So after careful thinking I selected a few, one of which is this adult > reader I’m describing. He is not actually a student, but heard the job > through his wife; he struck me as very mature in the interview. > > Now I have to pick from a handful of backup people; I hope they are still > available; we will see. > > What did you do about unreliable readers? Just get new ones? Why is it > that people cannot be up front about their schedules and other life > commitments in the interview? I don’t understand why this guy volunteered > to read at my home as opposed to driving over to school, when he had to > watch a kid twice a week and he knew I had class Wednesday night! > > Is there any way to judge reliability and dependability in the interview? > Also, do you have them read more than one short sample? > Maybe I should; the problem I see with one sample is they may find that > subject easy because they studied a similar class or they don’t see > difficult words. > Do you ask them to demonstrate any ddirection skills in reading? I mean > things like asking them to skip something, skim for Joe Smith or > something, > or look up a concept from the index? > Do you all use readers to research? Perhaps helping you skim articles for > relevance? > If so, how do you know which of your readers can search databases well or > has the skill to skim matterial? > > Okay, just had to rant some. This is not the first schedule conflict with > a > reader, but its irritating. > I also had a reader with schedule conflicts because of her sport or other > job. > I ask when they are available in the interview and let them know my > schedule > too. I also try to bbe a little flexible about times to read but I want > to > do it certain days I can get to campus, preferabily days I’m already > there. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jkenn337 at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 02:37:46 2011 From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2011 21:37:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] email list I discovered Message-ID: <4D70507A.4030701@gmail.com> Hi I discovered a new email list. if you are interested in subscribing it is called blind catholic chat email blindcatholicchat-subscribe at yahoogroups.com Josh From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Mar 4 02:42:53 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2011 20:42:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] reliable readers In-Reply-To: <91C5391BA6F04B31814206FABB2ACC63@OwnerPC> References: <77F7D5C076744C1086AA411C2A43889E@OwnerPC> <91C5391BA6F04B31814206FABB2ACC63@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, you didn't answer the question completely. Is the book available on www.bookshare.org? If not, you do have a problem. I'm surprised that the universities don't hire nonstudent helpers for those of us with disabilities. They have TVI's for grade school, so why not for college? What's the deal? That's stupid, (if you ask me.) Blessings, Joshua On 3/3/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Joshua, > Yes the KjV Bible is a tough one to read! > Anyway, no the books I needed are not avaialble from RFB. If they were, I'd > certainly order them! > > Student readers can be unreliable; glad I'm not the only one with issues. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 8:17 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] reliable readers > > Ashley, I've had some similar problems. I have a reliable reader, > though. It helps, when the reader happens to be your pastor, (lol.) > When he reads the Bible, he doesn't stumble over the words. If someone > can do that with the KJV, Bible, they can do that with an English > textbook. He's also a student. Isn't this book available in audio from > RFBND? Please let me know, because that might be a better deal for > you. It might be available on www.bookshare.org, as well. Blessings, > Joshua > > On 3/3/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Well I hope your semester is going well. I am frustrated with not getting >> reliable readers. >> Why is it that they read better and say they have more availabality than >> they actually do in the interview? >> >> I do not have an accessible grammar book. My school cannot scan books; >> Nova >> said they would have to outsource to scan the book; even then I would not >> have full access to the book because you have to see what is underlined, >> italicized, and marked to understand the sentence, like what is the >> subject >> or what is the prepositional phrase. The editing book has tables and >> other >> things that lend themselves to being explained by someone as well. >> >> Anyway, so I get a reader who I thought was great; he read fluently with >> little mistakes; I thought he could work Monday and Wednesdays; then it >> became Monday because of his other part time job; that was okay; we ended >> up >> meeting at my home on weekends. >> >> So then I found out he cannot read two evenings after all during the week >> because he has to watch his kids while his wife is in class. >> We had talked about reading one weekend day and one day during the week. >> >> Well, anyway, he is uncommiting after this week because he found a full >> time >> job. >> I kept working with him for a month because again he was the best reader; >> he >> projected; he was articulate and read at a good pace. >> So I figured I’d take him on weekends if that was all he could do. >> At nova, you see many foreign students of Asian and Hispanic dissent. >> A few who applied either were bad readers or you could not understand them >> with accents. >> So after careful thinking I selected a few, one of which is this adult >> reader I’m describing. He is not actually a student, but heard the job >> through his wife; he struck me as very mature in the interview. >> >> Now I have to pick from a handful of backup people; I hope they are still >> available; we will see. >> >> What did you do about unreliable readers? Just get new ones? Why is it >> that people cannot be up front about their schedules and other life >> commitments in the interview? I don’t understand why this guy volunteered >> to read at my home as opposed to driving over to school, when he had to >> watch a kid twice a week and he knew I had class Wednesday night! >> >> Is there any way to judge reliability and dependability in the interview? >> Also, do you have them read more than one short sample? >> Maybe I should; the problem I see with one sample is they may find that >> subject easy because they studied a similar class or they don’t see >> difficult words. >> Do you ask them to demonstrate any ddirection skills in reading? I mean >> things like asking them to skip something, skim for Joe Smith or >> something, >> or look up a concept from the index? >> Do you all use readers to research? Perhaps helping you skim articles for >> relevance? >> If so, how do you know which of your readers can search databases well or >> has the skill to skim matterial? >> >> Okay, just had to rant some. This is not the first schedule conflict with >> a >> reader, but its irritating. >> I also had a reader with schedule conflicts because of her sport or other >> job. >> I ask when they are available in the interview and let them know my >> schedule >> too. I also try to bbe a little flexible about times to read but I want >> to >> do it certain days I can get to campus, preferabily days I’m already >> there. >> >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Fri Mar 4 20:47:37 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 14:47:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Reliable readers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, Hiring a reader should be approached like any professional job. You, the interviewer, should be just as prepared as those you interview. Be specific about what you need, and yes, I would have samples for them to read-- afterall, they are applying for a job that requires them to read. Also, keep in mind that peoples schedules can change-- especially if they have a family. Your reader may not have anticipated any complications with his family. Children always throw a curveball into the game! *smile* If indeed your current reader ends up not working out, you may need to let them go to find a reader who fits your schedule-- they are under your employ. However, don't take things out on them since you never know what is happening in a person's life. Some universities do offer readers through their DSO, and most schools have tutors-- you may want to look into this-- but most schools do not necessarily hire readers who are great. They use those who apply and are available. Just because a DSO has readers does not mean they will be any better than ones you hire on your own terms, though their schedule will probably work for you. Bridgit From gpaikens at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 20:59:19 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 14:59:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Reliable readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would also check with the department to see if they could recommend anyone. For example, when I needed a spanish reader I got in touch with the spanish department. When I needed a calculus or matrix algebra I talked to the math department. This doesn't ensure quality reading skills but it does ensure you get someone familiar with the materials. Greg On Mar 4, 2011, at 2:47 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Ashley, > > Hiring a reader should be approached like any professional job. You, > the interviewer, should be just as prepared as those you interview. Be > specific about what you need, and yes, I would have samples for them to > read-- afterall, they are applying for a job that requires them to read. > > Also, keep in mind that peoples schedules can change-- especially if > they have a family. Your reader may not have anticipated any > complications with his family. Children always throw a curveball into > the game! *smile* > > If indeed your current reader ends up not working out, you may need to > let them go to find a reader who fits your schedule-- they are under > your employ. However, don't take things out on them since you never > know what is happening in a person's life. > > Some universities do offer readers through their DSO, and most schools > have tutors-- you may want to look into this-- but most schools do not > necessarily hire readers who are great. They use those who apply and > are available. Just because a DSO has readers does not mean they will > be any better than ones you hire on your own terms, though their > schedule will probably work for you. > > Bridgit > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From aec732 at msn.com Fri Mar 4 21:16:49 2011 From: aec732 at msn.com (Annemarie Cooke) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 16:16:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] to Ashley In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ashley, please message me offlist with the title, author and copyright of the grammar book you are using. Perhaps I can help. Thanks. Annemarie Cooke RFB&D aec732 at msn.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Mar 4 22:20:02 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 17:20:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Reliable readers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6FB6548700BE4827878E3BB0320A0A33@OwnerPC> Hi, I did have a standard list of questions and felt I was prepared. I did not have training in hiring / managing readers so I've learned throughout my college years. I did have a sample; yet I should have had a few samples. What I found was reader A might be good at reading one book and not another, but Reader B might be able to read that book. Some matterial is more technical than others. Yes schedules change among readers; yet this person knew about his wife's classes and therefore his need to watch kids. What I am saying is I am up front about my schedule and I'd like readers or prospective readers to do the same. Maybe next semester will work better. /ashley -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 3:47 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Reliable readers Ashley, Hiring a reader should be approached like any professional job. You, the interviewer, should be just as prepared as those you interview. Be specific about what you need, and yes, I would have samples for them to read-- afterall, they are applying for a job that requires them to read. Also, keep in mind that peoples schedules can change-- especially if they have a family. Your reader may not have anticipated any complications with his family. Children always throw a curveball into the game! *smile* If indeed your current reader ends up not working out, you may need to let them go to find a reader who fits your schedule-- they are under your employ. However, don't take things out on them since you never know what is happening in a person's life. Some universities do offer readers through their DSO, and most schools have tutors-- you may want to look into this-- but most schools do not necessarily hire readers who are great. They use those who apply and are available. Just because a DSO has readers does not mean they will be any better than ones you hire on your own terms, though their schedule will probably work for you. Bridgit _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Mar 4 22:25:29 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 16:25:29 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Reliable readers In-Reply-To: <6FB6548700BE4827878E3BB0320A0A33@OwnerPC> References: <6FB6548700BE4827878E3BB0320A0A33@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, Rightsville Prison, (Rightsville, Arkansas,) has a Braille program. The innmates are taught how to transcribe Braille, and most Braille books that are given to students were produced by them. I wonder if Rightsville does college-levil textbooks. You might find out. Blessings, Joshua On 3/4/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi, > I did have a standard list of questions and felt I was prepared. I did not > have training in hiring / managing readers so I've learned throughout my > college years. > > I did have a sample; yet I should have had a few samples. What I found was > reader A might be good at reading one book and not another, but Reader B > might be able to read that book. > Some matterial is more technical than others. > Yes schedules change among readers; yet this person knew about his wife's > classes and therefore his need to watch kids. > What I am saying is I am up front about my schedule and I'd like readers or > prospective readers to do the same. > > Maybe next semester will work better. > /ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 3:47 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Reliable readers > > Ashley, > > Hiring a reader should be approached like any professional job. You, > the interviewer, should be just as prepared as those you interview. Be > specific about what you need, and yes, I would have samples for them to > read-- afterall, they are applying for a job that requires them to read. > > Also, keep in mind that peoples schedules can change-- especially if > they have a family. Your reader may not have anticipated any > complications with his family. Children always throw a curveball into > the game! *smile* > > If indeed your current reader ends up not working out, you may need to > let them go to find a reader who fits your schedule-- they are under > your employ. However, don't take things out on them since you never > know what is happening in a person's life. > > Some universities do offer readers through their DSO, and most schools > have tutors-- you may want to look into this-- but most schools do not > necessarily hire readers who are great. They use those who apply and > are available. Just because a DSO has readers does not mean they will > be any better than ones you hire on your own terms, though their > schedule will probably work for you. > > Bridgit > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 5 00:37:36 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 19:37:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] working with kids Message-ID: <556C830C3B11437293EEDA1F656EDC45@OwnerPC> Hi all, So I don’t have a job and I have wanted to help children, whether in reading or just being there to help out and manage them. I am considering applying for a counseling position at local day camps. I am doubtful though about getting hired; I don’t have experience except for a little tutoring I did a few years ago. Yet the only way to get experience is for someone to give you a chance. What was your experience like if you did this? My rehab counselor discouraged me from pursuing teaching or working with kids because I cannot see what they’re doing and safety issues. Yet I don’t want to believe those low expectations. There are many summer camps locally in the area at community centers and recreation facilities. How have you managed the kids? How do you know where they are, that they are not getting hurt and doing what they are supposed to? The camps involve structured activities inside which is not as challenging to handle. I can walk around and observe the kids. Stuff like drama, music, and arts and crafts are some activities. However, others involve outdoor sport activities and I do not know how I'd manage that. How did you convince them to let you help out? Thanks. Ashley From dandrews at visi.com Sat Mar 5 00:59:30 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2011 18:59:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: White House Fall Internship Program Application Message-ID: > >---------- >From: White House Disability Group >[mailto:disability at messages.whitehouse.gov] >Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2011 4:14 PM >To: Briggs, Wanda >Subject: White House Fall Internship Program Application > > >Please take note of the below and circulate and >help our internship program be inclusive of students with disabilities. > > > >The application deadline for the White House >Internship Program’s fall 2011 session is >Sunday, March 13. Please take the time to think >of five future young leaders you believe would >serve as great White House Interns, and >personally encourage them to apply. Below is >more information that might be helpful to prospective White House Interns: > > > >- Check out this blog from a former White House >intern with a disability: >http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/02/24/people-you-meet-white-house-internship-program > > > >- Visit the White House Internship website: >http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/internships/ > > > >- Apply to the White House Internship program: >http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/internships/apply/ > > > >- Learn more about the selection process: >http://www.whitehouse.gov/about/internships/selection/ > > > >A White House Internship provides a unique >opportunity to gain valuable professional >experience and build leadership skills. This >hands-on program is designed to mentor and >cultivate today’s young leaders, strengthen >their understanding of the Executive Office of >the President and prepare them for future public service involvement. > > > >Please encourage all eligible young leaders to >take advantage of this incredible opportunity! > >The White House · 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW · >Washington DC 20500 · 202-456-1111 From ntorcolini at wavecable.com Sat Mar 5 05:30:01 2011 From: ntorcolini at wavecable.com (Nicole B. Torcolini at Home) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2011 21:30:01 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and Safety Message-ID: One topic of interest/concern to me is blindness and safety. As a person who is blind, do people feel that they are more of a target for robbery or other assault? Given that we cannot see a person, how would we describe someone who tried to attack us? Nicole From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 16:45:13 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 11:45:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs Message-ID: Hello NABS Members, My name is Brianna. I am in the process of making the list of technology I will need for college and I was wondering what are people's oppinions of Macs verses PCs? Thank You Brianna On 3/3/11, Jewel S. wrote: > CTRL+Shift+tab? Thanks for that one! I always like to just convert to > outline form, but do so by getting the powerpoints by e-mail and > viewing it as HTML. This'll make it even easier for my teachers, since > they could jst give me all of them at once! My teachers are pretty > good about not using graphics that are necessary for the understanding > (or like my psychology teacher does, put a caption under the picture > that comes out in the HTML format, where there's no image for it to go > with...an example would be "Graph 2.3," where 2.3 stands fort eh graph > in the textbook that she uses [and she only uses graphs and charts > fromt he textbook]). > > Thanks for that tip, > > On 3/2/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Another option would be to convert the powerpoint to outline form, >> then paste the outline into a word document. To convert to outline >> form, hit Control+Shift+Tab after you have selected all. Then you >> should be in outline view, from which point you can copy and paste to >> microsoft word. >> Hope This Helps: >> Patrick >> >> On 3/2/11, Mary Fernandez wrote: >>> Hi! >>> So I'm using powerpoint 2007, but I think the basic menus are very >>> similar. What I do is go the the slide show menu, and hit start show. >>> That way, it goes directly to hte main body of the slide. If you hit >>> your right application key, you can go the next slide, previous, or >>> choose a slide number even. Also, if you just his insert_f1 jaws >>> provides a pretty good built in guide for powerpoint. Hope this helps. >>> Mary F >>> >>> On 3/2/11, Anmol Bhatia wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello nabs, >>>> I am trying to read some powerpoint slides, but I am having >>>> a hard time getting jaws to read me the content on the >>>> slides. Does anyone have a lisgt of key strokes for >>>> powerpoint in Microsoft 2003 and would not mind emailing >>>> those to me? If you could email me this I would appreciate >>>> it. >>>> thanks >>>> Anmol >>>> >>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me >>>> sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but >>>> it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. >>>> Hellen Keller >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mary Fernandez >>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students >>> Emory University 2012 >>> P.O. Box 123056 >>> Atlanta Ga. >>> 30322 >>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>> >>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much >>> rather you weren't doing it." >>> Terry Pratchett >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > ~Jewel > Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! > Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > From kobycox at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 16:51:13 2011 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 10:51:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7EEB7D12-275E-4AC4-AC7D-AC2F1164B02F@gmail.com> Brianna, Please email me off list so that I can give you some information that I don't feel like sharing with the list. My email address is: kobycox at gmail.com. Right back soon, Koby. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 5, 2011, at 10:45 AM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > Hello NABS Members, > > My name is Brianna. I am in the process of making the list of > technology I will need for college and I was wondering what are > people's oppinions of Macs verses PCs? > > Thank You > > Brianna > > On 3/3/11, Jewel S. wrote: >> CTRL+Shift+tab? Thanks for that one! I always like to just convert to >> outline form, but do so by getting the powerpoints by e-mail and >> viewing it as HTML. This'll make it even easier for my teachers, since >> they could jst give me all of them at once! My teachers are pretty >> good about not using graphics that are necessary for the understanding >> (or like my psychology teacher does, put a caption under the picture >> that comes out in the HTML format, where there's no image for it to go >> with...an example would be "Graph 2.3," where 2.3 stands fort eh graph >> in the textbook that she uses [and she only uses graphs and charts >> fromt he textbook]). >> >> Thanks for that tip, >> >> On 3/2/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> Another option would be to convert the powerpoint to outline form, >>> then paste the outline into a word document. To convert to outline >>> form, hit Control+Shift+Tab after you have selected all. Then you >>> should be in outline view, from which point you can copy and paste to >>> microsoft word. >>> Hope This Helps: >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 3/2/11, Mary Fernandez wrote: >>>> Hi! >>>> So I'm using powerpoint 2007, but I think the basic menus are very >>>> similar. What I do is go the the slide show menu, and hit start show. >>>> That way, it goes directly to hte main body of the slide. If you hit >>>> your right application key, you can go the next slide, previous, or >>>> choose a slide number even. Also, if you just his insert_f1 jaws >>>> provides a pretty good built in guide for powerpoint. Hope this helps. >>>> Mary F >>>> >>>> On 3/2/11, Anmol Bhatia wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello nabs, >>>>> I am trying to read some powerpoint slides, but I am having >>>>> a hard time getting jaws to read me the content on the >>>>> slides. Does anyone have a lisgt of key strokes for >>>>> powerpoint in Microsoft 2003 and would not mind emailing >>>>> those to me? If you could email me this I would appreciate >>>>> it. >>>>> thanks >>>>> Anmol >>>>> >>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me >>>>> sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but >>>>> it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. >>>>> Hellen Keller >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mary Fernandez >>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students >>>> Emory University 2012 >>>> P.O. Box 123056 >>>> Atlanta Ga. >>>> 30322 >>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>> >>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much >>>> rather you weren't doing it." >>>> Terry Pratchett >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> ~Jewel >> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! >> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 16:54:20 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 11:54:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs References: Message-ID: <81A30C5309824037A8A8229117469022@hometwxakonvzn> I thinks your personal taste, but what will DBS pay for? Whose your councilor? RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brianna Scerenscko" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 11:45 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs > Hello NABS Members, > > My name is Brianna. I am in the process of making the list of > technology I will need for college and I was wondering what are > people's oppinions of Macs verses PCs? > > Thank You > > Brianna > > On 3/3/11, Jewel S. wrote: >> CTRL+Shift+tab? Thanks for that one! I always like to just convert to >> outline form, but do so by getting the powerpoints by e-mail and >> viewing it as HTML. This'll make it even easier for my teachers, since >> they could jst give me all of them at once! My teachers are pretty >> good about not using graphics that are necessary for the understanding >> (or like my psychology teacher does, put a caption under the picture >> that comes out in the HTML format, where there's no image for it to go >> with...an example would be "Graph 2.3," where 2.3 stands fort eh graph >> in the textbook that she uses [and she only uses graphs and charts >> fromt he textbook]). >> >> Thanks for that tip, >> >> On 3/2/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> Another option would be to convert the powerpoint to outline form, >>> then paste the outline into a word document. To convert to outline >>> form, hit Control+Shift+Tab after you have selected all. Then you >>> should be in outline view, from which point you can copy and paste to >>> microsoft word. >>> Hope This Helps: >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 3/2/11, Mary Fernandez wrote: >>>> Hi! >>>> So I'm using powerpoint 2007, but I think the basic menus are very >>>> similar. What I do is go the the slide show menu, and hit start show. >>>> That way, it goes directly to hte main body of the slide. If you hit >>>> your right application key, you can go the next slide, previous, or >>>> choose a slide number even. Also, if you just his insert_f1 jaws >>>> provides a pretty good built in guide for powerpoint. Hope this helps. >>>> Mary F >>>> >>>> On 3/2/11, Anmol Bhatia wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello nabs, >>>>> I am trying to read some powerpoint slides, but I am having >>>>> a hard time getting jaws to read me the content on the >>>>> slides. Does anyone have a lisgt of key strokes for >>>>> powerpoint in Microsoft 2003 and would not mind emailing >>>>> those to me? If you could email me this I would appreciate >>>>> it. >>>>> thanks >>>>> Anmol >>>>> >>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me >>>>> sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but >>>>> it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. >>>>> Hellen Keller >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mary Fernandez >>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students >>>> Emory University 2012 >>>> P.O. Box 123056 >>>> Atlanta Ga. >>>> 30322 >>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>> >>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much >>>> rather you weren't doing it." >>>> Terry Pratchett >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> ~Jewel >> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! >> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sat Mar 5 17:37:30 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 12:37:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: PCs are good. The only advantage apart from all the Apple accessibility you'll get with the OS, and more 3rd party programs being screen reader-friendly, the other advantage is that you can bootcamp or vertual machine your Mac so it can run Windows for anything you need. Hardware wise though, either one is fine. Jorge On Mar 5, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > Hello NABS Members, > > My name is Brianna. I am in the process of making the list of > technology I will need for college and I was wondering what are > people's oppinions of Macs verses PCs? > > Thank You > > Brianna > > On 3/3/11, Jewel S. wrote: >> CTRL+Shift+tab? Thanks for that one! I always like to just convert to >> outline form, but do so by getting the powerpoints by e-mail and >> viewing it as HTML. This'll make it even easier for my teachers, since >> they could jst give me all of them at once! My teachers are pretty >> good about not using graphics that are necessary for the understanding >> (or like my psychology teacher does, put a caption under the picture >> that comes out in the HTML format, where there's no image for it to go >> with...an example would be "Graph 2.3," where 2.3 stands fort eh graph >> in the textbook that she uses [and she only uses graphs and charts >> fromt he textbook]). >> >> Thanks for that tip, >> >> On 3/2/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> Another option would be to convert the powerpoint to outline form, >>> then paste the outline into a word document. To convert to outline >>> form, hit Control+Shift+Tab after you have selected all. Then you >>> should be in outline view, from which point you can copy and paste to >>> microsoft word. >>> Hope This Helps: >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 3/2/11, Mary Fernandez wrote: >>>> Hi! >>>> So I'm using powerpoint 2007, but I think the basic menus are very >>>> similar. What I do is go the the slide show menu, and hit start show. >>>> That way, it goes directly to hte main body of the slide. If you hit >>>> your right application key, you can go the next slide, previous, or >>>> choose a slide number even. Also, if you just his insert_f1 jaws >>>> provides a pretty good built in guide for powerpoint. Hope this helps. >>>> Mary F >>>> >>>> On 3/2/11, Anmol Bhatia wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello nabs, >>>>> I am trying to read some powerpoint slides, but I am having >>>>> a hard time getting jaws to read me the content on the >>>>> slides. Does anyone have a lisgt of key strokes for >>>>> powerpoint in Microsoft 2003 and would not mind emailing >>>>> those to me? If you could email me this I would appreciate >>>>> it. >>>>> thanks >>>>> Anmol >>>>> >>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me >>>>> sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but >>>>> it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. >>>>> Hellen Keller >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mary Fernandez >>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students >>>> Emory University 2012 >>>> P.O. Box 123056 >>>> Atlanta Ga. >>>> 30322 >>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>> >>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much >>>> rather you weren't doing it." >>>> Terry Pratchett >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> ~Jewel >> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! >> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 17:44:41 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 12:44:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] working with kids In-Reply-To: <556C830C3B11437293EEDA1F656EDC45@OwnerPC> References: <556C830C3B11437293EEDA1F656EDC45@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <976FB26C42844453AF9262D9BE8D6AE6@OwnerPC> It is illegal to not higher someone because of a disability, though many imploiers do find ways around that law. I have worked at a summer camp for blind children a number of years. I also volonteered at a few other camps and programs for sighted kids. I believe my expirience with the camp for blind kids gave me credentials in the eyes of the sighted. The main thing is that you have to prove yourself. You already know you are not only capable but a good choice for the job, you have to let them know you can. Make sure to present them with a resume that emphasizes your expirience with kids: babysitting, volenteering in big brothers big sisters, tutering, ect. Have references that can vouge for your abilities in working with kids, have recommendation letters. If they have the positive statemens in front of them they are more likely to consider you than if they have to call and ask about you. Do not say you are blind anywhere in the aplication. If you are called for an interview it will be because they liked your aplication and resume. Once you are at the interview present yourself in a way they can not dismiss you as a "blind person" you are a good candidate for the job. Explain your ways of doing things they do not believe you can do. IF you want more expirience before you go, get involved with big brothers big sisters, or any other volenteer program you can find working with kids. Offer to lead some activities. If you go to chirch help out with adventure clubs or what ever they have for kids. If not focus on community oportunities You asked how I knew where kids were and what they were doing, just use your other sences especially your ears. My friend who is a blind mother says sighted parence trust her with their kids over other sighted parence because she seems to have eyes in the back of her head. My friend responded that she told her kids that same thing, but the truthe was her ears picked up on things the kids could hide from eyes. Kids by nature are noisy, so when they get quiet is a good time to take a closer look at what they are doing. The camp I worked at was lokated in the woods and was a very active camp. It is possible, don't give up. Also at the camp we used a counting system all the kids had a number and they counted off when we were leaving a location and then again when at the new location. I have seen sighted people find this system useful as well. That doesn't mean you don't know the kids and their names and voices but it does help. I have also seen sighted people get fooled by a smart ass kid who said another's number where as the blind person new their voices and knew that kid was not their. The blind person was also able to find the missing kid before the sighted person. -----Original Message----- From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 7:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] working with kids Hi all, So I don’t have a job and I have wanted to help children, whether in reading or just being there to help out and manage them. I am considering applying for a counseling position at local day camps. I am doubtful though about getting hired; I don’t have experience except for a little tutoring I did a few years ago. Yet the only way to get experience is for someone to give you a chance. What was your experience like if you did this? My rehab counselor discouraged me from pursuing teaching or working with kids because I cannot see what they’re doing and safety issues. Yet I don’t want to believe those low expectations. There are many summer camps locally in the area at community centers and recreation facilities. How have you managed the kids? How do you know where they are, that they are not getting hurt and doing what they are supposed to? The camps involve structured activities inside which is not as challenging to handle. I can walk around and observe the kids. Stuff like drama, music, and arts and crafts are some activities. However, others involve outdoor sport activities and I do not know how I'd manage that. How did you convince them to let you help out? Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Sat Mar 5 18:04:10 2011 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 13:04:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] working with kids In-Reply-To: <976FB26C42844453AF9262D9BE8D6AE6@OwnerPC> References: <556C830C3B11437293EEDA1F656EDC45@OwnerPC>, <976FB26C42844453AF9262D9BE8D6AE6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, I am not sure what age range you are interested in working with, but perhaps you might want to look into helping out at one of the summer youth programs at one of the training centers. I think this could help you gain some experience as well as some confidence in trying to obtain a job amongst the sighted population. I do not know if you have attended any of the training centers yourself, but if you have not, then perhaps now might be a good time to look into it as you search for job possibilities. However, I also know that training centers are not necessarily for everyone, so if you choose not to go this route, then I think no less of you. Whatever you choose to do, I wish you the best of luck. Elizabeth > -----Original Message----- > From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net > Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 7:37 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] working with kids > > Hi all, > > So I don’t have a job and I have wanted to help children, whether in reading > or just being there to help out and manage them. > I am considering applying for a counseling position at local day camps. > I am doubtful though about getting hired; I don’t have experience except for > a little tutoring I did a few years ago. > Yet the only way to get experience is for someone to give you a chance. > What was your experience like if you did this? > > My rehab counselor discouraged me from pursuing teaching or working with > kids because I cannot see what they’re doing and safety issues. > Yet I don’t want to believe those low expectations. > > There are many summer camps locally in the area at community centers and > recreation facilities. > How have you managed the kids? How do you know where they are, that they are > not getting hurt and doing what they are supposed to? > The camps involve structured activities inside which is not as challenging > to handle. I can walk around and observe the kids. Stuff like drama, > music, and arts and crafts are some activities. However, others involve > outdoor sport activities and I do not know how I'd manage that. > > How did you convince them to let you help out? > > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 18:36:38 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 13:36:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and Safety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It is true that atackers more often then not target people who they feel are weeker and easier to control. This is a commen misperception of blind people as well. Also atackers do not want to be caught by athorities so they feel a blind person would not be able to identify them, also a misconception. So in answer to your question, yes blind people are more likely to be a target, however, we as blind people can use the stariotypes of helpless victems to our advantage. Since atackers are not expecting their blind victem to put up much of a struggle, arrogance and ignorance is their weekness. I think all blind people especially women should take some sort of self defence corse. Infact all women should take self defence sighted or not. Men should also know how to defend themselves but they are not as big of a target. If you are not experienced with a weapon do not carry one it can be used against you. If you have not taken lessons in fighting or symple selfdefence you should. Untell then remember to go for soft spots if your atact. Eyes, nose, stummech, groin, and just under the ears are good places to hit hard or apply significant force to. The smaller the target like eyes or under ears use finger tips. For the nose use the heal of your hand and push up and back. For all other places use fist elboe knee or what ever you have availible to you. The weekest places however are a personts joints. Unless a person is dubble jointed, their joints have a limited range of motion. Knees do not normally bend backwards, kick them so they do. Elbows don't twist or hyperextend use that, they brake easily. Fingers when bent the right way can bring a person to their knees do then and continuew till they all brake at once. It is good to learn selfdefence but if you don't know complicated fighting techneeques this is a verry afective way to down an attacker. Also there is a place on the inside of the thy about two inches above the knee that will temperarily parrilize a person if hit hard enough. The effects only last five minuts so if you manage it run like hell. Do not focus on just one form of atack use what ever the atacker gives you and he will give you places you can strike because he thinks you are defenceless. Also do not underestimate gravity. Use his weight against him make him think he is winning then let his weight be his undooing. Remember his voice, and speech patterns and body type for if he gets away and there are no witnesses and the police kneed to know what their looking for. If you notice anything about the material they are whereing it may give insite as to what ocupation thay have or be an identifying quality. Step on his foot, is he whering boots, dress shoes, or tennis shoes. Obviously you are trying to get away and down him, so you are not examining his looks and appairal, but notice what you can, anything helps. If you push on his pressure point below the ears try to brush your hand on his hair is it short long, volumous, cirly, strate. You may not catch all this but you might. -----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 12:30 AM To: NABS-L Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and Safety One topic of interest/concern to me is blindness and safety. As a person who is blind, do people feel that they are more of a target for robbery or other assault? Given that we cannot see a person, how would we describe someone who tried to attack us? Nicole _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 18:47:52 2011 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 13:47:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and Safety In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In addition to some experience with self-defense, or if you have no experience in self defense yet, I would highly recommend a pepper sprayer. I found a MACE brand pepper sprayer that sprays a rather wide stream, so as long as I know what general direction the attacker is in, I have a good chance of hitting. The pepper spray also contains a UV sort of ink that will stick where ever it lands and be visible under UV light to help with identifying a person, and it emits a very loud siren when sprayed, which will help get the attention of people nearby (to some extent, at least. Don't count on people to come help you!) On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Andi wrote: > It is true that atackers more often then not target people who they feel > are weeker and easier to control. This is a commen misperception of blind > people as well. Also atackers do not want to be caught by athorities so > they feel a blind person would not be able to identify them, also a > misconception. So in answer to your question, yes blind people are more > likely to be a target, however, we as blind people can use the stariotypes > of helpless victems to our advantage. Since atackers are not expecting > their blind victem to put up much of a struggle, arrogance and ignorance is > their weekness. I think all blind people especially women should take some > sort of self defence corse. Infact all women should take self defence > sighted or not. Men should also know how to defend themselves but they are > not as big of a target. If you are not experienced with a weapon do not > carry one it can be used against you. If you have not taken lessons in > fighting or symple selfdefence you should. Untell then remember to go for > soft spots if your atact. Eyes, nose, stummech, groin, and just under the > ears are good places to hit hard or apply significant force to. The smaller > the target like eyes or under ears use finger tips. For the nose use the > heal of your hand and push up and back. For all other places use fist elboe > knee or what ever you have availible to you. The weekest places however are > a personts joints. Unless a person is dubble jointed, their joints have a > limited range of motion. Knees do not normally bend backwards, kick them so > they do. Elbows don't twist or hyperextend use that, they brake easily. > Fingers when bent the right way can bring a person to their knees do then > and continuew till they all brake at once. It is good to learn selfdefence > but if you don't know complicated fighting techneeques this is a verry > afective way to down an attacker. Also there is a place on the inside of > the thy about two inches above the knee that will temperarily parrilize a > person if hit hard enough. The effects only last five minuts so if you > manage it run like hell. Do not focus on just one form of atack use what > ever the atacker gives you and he will give you places you can strike > because he thinks you are defenceless. Also do not underestimate gravity. > Use his weight against him make him think he is winning then let his weight > be his undooing. Remember his voice, and speech patterns and body type for > if he gets away and there are no witnesses and the police kneed to know what > their looking for. If you notice anything about the material they are > whereing it may give insite as to what ocupation thay have or be an > identifying quality. Step on his foot, is he whering boots, dress shoes, or > tennis shoes. Obviously you are trying to get away and down him, so you are > not examining his looks and appairal, but notice what you can, anything > helps. If you push on his pressure point below the ears try to brush your > hand on his hair is it short long, volumous, cirly, strate. You may not > catch all this but you might. > -----Original Message----- From: Nicole B. Torcolini at Home > Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 12:30 AM > To: NABS-L > Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and Safety > > > One topic of interest/concern to me is blindness and safety. As a person > who is blind, do people feel that they are more of a target for robbery or > other assault? Given that we cannot see a person, how would we describe > someone who tried to attack us? > > Nicole > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From gpaikens at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 20:14:52 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 14:14:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I would also say that it depends a lot on what you are used to and how much time you are willing to spend to learn a new system. Most things are quite easy to learn on the mac once you get the basics of how voiceover works. The most difficult part of switching for me was learning to do word processing on the mac, which is a huge part of what you will use in college. If you have learned to use a windows screen reader and microsoft word, making the switch to voiceover and one of the word processors on the mac will take some serious time to learn and adjust to. I love my mac now and I am quite comfortable with word processing. It took a few months of frustration though for me to learn to do everything I was able to do with Jaws and word. I'm sure it would be the same if you were going to switch the other way. So, if you are going to switch, allow yourself enough time to learn how to do the essential tasks you will need for college beforehand. Connect with people who can help you learn too. Hope this helps. -Greg On Mar 5, 2011, at 11:37 AM, Jorge Paez wrote: > PCs are good. > > The only advantage apart from all the Apple accessibility you'll get with the OS, and more 3rd party programs being screen reader-friendly, > the other advantage is that you can bootcamp or vertual machine your Mac so it can run Windows for anything you need. > > > Hardware wise though, either one is fine. > > > Jorge > > > On Mar 5, 2011, at 11:45 AM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > >> Hello NABS Members, >> >> My name is Brianna. I am in the process of making the list of >> technology I will need for college and I was wondering what are >> people's oppinions of Macs verses PCs? >> >> Thank You >> >> Brianna >> >> On 3/3/11, Jewel S. wrote: >>> CTRL+Shift+tab? Thanks for that one! I always like to just convert to >>> outline form, but do so by getting the powerpoints by e-mail and >>> viewing it as HTML. This'll make it even easier for my teachers, since >>> they could jst give me all of them at once! My teachers are pretty >>> good about not using graphics that are necessary for the understanding >>> (or like my psychology teacher does, put a caption under the picture >>> that comes out in the HTML format, where there's no image for it to go >>> with...an example would be "Graph 2.3," where 2.3 stands fort eh graph >>> in the textbook that she uses [and she only uses graphs and charts >>> fromt he textbook]). >>> >>> Thanks for that tip, >>> >>> On 3/2/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>>> Another option would be to convert the powerpoint to outline form, >>>> then paste the outline into a word document. To convert to outline >>>> form, hit Control+Shift+Tab after you have selected all. Then you >>>> should be in outline view, from which point you can copy and paste to >>>> microsoft word. >>>> Hope This Helps: >>>> Patrick >>>> >>>> On 3/2/11, Mary Fernandez wrote: >>>>> Hi! >>>>> So I'm using powerpoint 2007, but I think the basic menus are very >>>>> similar. What I do is go the the slide show menu, and hit start show. >>>>> That way, it goes directly to hte main body of the slide. If you hit >>>>> your right application key, you can go the next slide, previous, or >>>>> choose a slide number even. Also, if you just his insert_f1 jaws >>>>> provides a pretty good built in guide for powerpoint. Hope this helps. >>>>> Mary F >>>>> >>>>> On 3/2/11, Anmol Bhatia wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello nabs, >>>>>> I am trying to read some powerpoint slides, but I am having >>>>>> a hard time getting jaws to read me the content on the >>>>>> slides. Does anyone have a lisgt of key strokes for >>>>>> powerpoint in Microsoft 2003 and would not mind emailing >>>>>> those to me? If you could email me this I would appreciate >>>>>> it. >>>>>> thanks >>>>>> Anmol >>>>>> >>>>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me >>>>>> sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but >>>>>> it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. >>>>>> Hellen Keller >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Mary Fernandez >>>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students >>>>> Emory University 2012 >>>>> P.O. Box 123056 >>>>> Atlanta Ga. >>>>> 30322 >>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>>> >>>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much >>>>> rather you weren't doing it." >>>>> Terry Pratchett >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> ~Jewel >>> Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! >>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From amylsabo at comcast.net Sat Mar 5 20:15:59 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 20:15:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: AudioAccessRadio Exciting News And Updates Message-ID: <466407130.1802636.1299356159680.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> hello all, here is some awesome news in trgards to audio access radio. please read on for more information. hugs, amy ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Djd Sent: Fri, 04 Mar 2011 19:18:17 -0000 (UTC) Subject: AudioAccessRadio Exciting News And Updates Hi All! I'm happy to report that I've received some interesting dj applications and things are coming along with getting ready for the launch of AudioAccessRadio! For those hearing about our new telephone comment line and more, go to http://www.audioaccessradio.com And you can also either by going to http://www.audioaccessradio.com/logo.html or by using the attached file, take a look at our station's logo. If you go to http://www.audioaccessradio.com/logo.html you can read a description of what it looks like. Obviously things will look great once our backgrounds and all are established, but this is a start. Feel free to leave feedback in my email regarding the logo, comment line, and everything else. Stay tuned, as some more huge announcements will be coming out. Best way to read those ahead of time is to follow audioaccess1 on twitter. That's about it for now, but I'm hoping to have the station launched in April. >From David Dunphy From jwiley at UIC.EDU Sat Mar 5 15:34:07 2011 From: jwiley at UIC.EDU (Jennifer Wiley) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 09:34:07 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Teach for America Message-ID: <6.2.1.2.2.20110305093259.0318eb98@mail.uic.edu> Teach For America (https://www.teachforamerica.org/index.htm) is the national corps of outstanding recent college graduates and professionals - of all majors, backgrounds, and career interests - who commit to teach for two years in urban and rural public schools and become lifelong leaders in expanding educational opportunity. Each year, we select a diverse corps of individuals who have the skills and commitment to improve the quality of education for students growing up today in low-income communities, and to help break the cycle of educational inequity. We will train you during a rigorous pre-service summer training program; place you as a teacher with full salary and benefits in an urban or rural public schools; and continue to support you through a two-year professional development program to ensure your success as a teacher and beyond. Right now, 8,200 corps members(http://www.teachforamerica.org/corps/index.htm) are teaching in 39 regions (http://www.teachforamerica.org/corps/placement_regions/placement_regions.htm) across the country while over 20,000 Teach For America alumni (http://www.teachforamerica.org/alumni/index.htm) continue working from inside and outside the field of education for the fundamental changes necessary to ensure educational excellence and equity. Sign up online today to learn more and to be notified about future opportunities: https://www.teachforamerica.org/online/info/index.jsp%3faction=signUp Positions are full salary and benefits. (https://www.teachforamerica.org/corps/finances/index.htm) Federal student loans deferred. All majors and professional experiences. From bernadetta_pracon at samobile.net Sat Mar 5 21:34:12 2011 From: bernadetta_pracon at samobile.net (Bernadetta Pracon) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 16:34:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs Message-ID: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Hey Briana, Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right out of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup window by default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the PC. Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is concerned. Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and functional with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't very accessible with voiceover as far as I know. Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you can do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard drive is partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you weren't sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and less clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition to apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's extremely intuitive. I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. HTH Bernadetta -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 22:28:09 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 17:28:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other Windows screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand Mac OS X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application windows are really similar across programs because people usually write their apps with the tools provided by Apple. Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, VoiceOver also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to the screen reader. I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, and VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. IC On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: > Hey Briana, > Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right out of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup window by default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the PC. Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is concerned. Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and functional with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't very accessible with voiceover as far as I know. > Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you can do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard drive is partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you weren't sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. > Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and less clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition to apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's extremely intuitive. > I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. > > HTH > > Bernadetta > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 22:41:45 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 17:41:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> Message-ID: One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come preloded into the computer? On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other Windows > screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand Mac OS > X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application > interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application > windows are really similar across programs because people usually write > their apps with the tools provided by Apple. > Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, VoiceOver > also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to the > screen reader. > I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, and > VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. > > IC > On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: > >> Hey Briana, >> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right out >> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup window by >> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the PC. >> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is concerned. >> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and functional >> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word >> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't very >> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you can >> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard drive is >> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you weren't >> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and less >> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition to >> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >> extremely intuitive. >> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >> >> HTH >> >> Bernadetta >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sat Mar 5 22:53:29 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 17:53:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D93D19F-05B9-42BF-83EC-E2C5B6A0F06E@mac.com> Yep. Same layout. On Mar 5, 2011, at 5:41 PM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the > vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; > but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac > as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to > learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come > preloded into the computer? > > > On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other Windows >> screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand Mac OS >> X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application >> interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application >> windows are really similar across programs because people usually write >> their apps with the tools provided by Apple. >> Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, VoiceOver >> also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to the >> screen reader. >> I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, and >> VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. >> >> IC >> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: >> >>> Hey Briana, >>> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >>> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right out >>> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >>> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup window by >>> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the PC. >>> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is concerned. >>> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >>> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and functional >>> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word >>> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't very >>> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >>> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you can >>> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >>> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard drive is >>> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you weren't >>> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >>> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >>> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and less >>> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition to >>> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >>> extremely intuitive. >>> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >>> >>> HTH >>> >>> Bernadetta >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 22:58:18 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 17:58:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal><8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <30527116F29D4604BE7497870F3D6C82@Rufus> I'd be curious to know what the level of flexibility is when it comes to the word processor. Someone once told me that in order to find out things about underlining, justification and so on, you had to paste the text to the system's text editor because the information was not readily available on iWork. Can you use styles in the same way you can with MS Word? What does table navigation look like, and how easy is it to review and edit documents using comments, footnotes, revision histories and the like? One good thing about Mac OSX is the availability of several full word processors as opposed to just the Office package for which JAWS scripts have been optimized, though to be fair I'm not sure how many of these Mac options are accessible with VoiceOver. Sorry to use the thread to pose my own questions, but I've been curious. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From dandrews at visi.com Sat Mar 5 23:08:14 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 17:08:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Curt Cylke Retires Message-ID: NLS Operations Alert no. 11-12 DATE : March 2, 2011 TO : Network Libraries FROM : Carolyn Hoover Sung Subject : Retirement of Frank Kurt Cylke, Director of NLS The following announcement came from Deanna Marcum, Associate Librarian of Congress for Library Services concerning the retirement of Frank Kurt Cylke Dear Colleagues, I am writing with the news that Frank Kurt Cylke, longtime director of the National Library Service for the Blind and Physically Handicapped (NLS), has retired from federal service effective February 28, 2011. Mr. Cylke was appointed to the position of NLS director in 1973. Since that time he has led NLS in a career of committed and dedicated service to the nation's libraries and to the blind and physically handicapped citizens of the United States. On March 3, 2011, NLS will celebrate the 80th anniversary of its founding legislation. Tribute will be paid to Mr. Cylke's exceptional career and to his leadership in accomplishing the transition from analog to digital technology in 2009 with the launch of the Digital Talking Book program. I am pleased to announce that Ruth Scovill will serve as acting NLS director. Ms. Scovill will serve in this role during an interim period, while the position of NLS director is being posted and filled permanently through a nationwide search. Ms. Scovill is the director of Technology Policy in Library Services at the Library of Congress. With extensive experience in information technology, and a knowledge and appreciation of NLS from her work in 2008 on a major study related to the development of the Digital Talking Book system, Ms. Scovill will work to assure a smooth transition for NLS until a permanent director is appointed. Special thanks to all of you for continuing your steadfast commitment to the mission of the National Library Service for the Blind and Physically Handicapped. Sincerely, Deanna Deanna Marcum Associate Librarian for Library Services Telephone: 202-707-5917 E-mail: dmarcum at loc.gov For more information contact: Carolyn Hoover Sung Chief, Network Division csun at loc.gov ===================END FORWARDED MESSAGE=================== ___________ From gpaikens at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 23:45:18 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 17:45:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> Message-ID: As far as I can tell, braille embossing is one area where you are better off with windows. DBT and Tiger don't have a mac version. Refreshible braille is quite good though. You can purchase a mac with some software preloaded if you like, such as the iWork suite, which is the apple competitor to MS Office. Other than that I'm not sure what you mean by "everything you need." Learning the OS was not too difficult. Voiceover comes with a great tutorial when you first set up the machine. Learning some specific tasks, such as word processing, using spreadsheets, and power point has taken more time. -Greg On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:41 PM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the > vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; > but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac > as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to > learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come > preloded into the computer? > > > On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other Windows >> screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand Mac OS >> X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application >> interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application >> windows are really similar across programs because people usually write >> their apps with the tools provided by Apple. >> Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, VoiceOver >> also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to the >> screen reader. >> I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, and >> VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. >> >> IC >> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: >> >>> Hey Briana, >>> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >>> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right out >>> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >>> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup window by >>> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the PC. >>> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is concerned. >>> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >>> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and functional >>> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word >>> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't very >>> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >>> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you can >>> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >>> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard drive is >>> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you weren't >>> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >>> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >>> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and less >>> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition to >>> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >>> extremely intuitive. >>> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >>> >>> HTH >>> >>> Bernadetta >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 23:52:31 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 17:52:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: <30527116F29D4604BE7497870F3D6C82@Rufus> References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal><8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> <30527116F29D4604BE7497870F3D6C82@Rufus> Message-ID: Hi Joe, I have been able to accomplish everything I need to do with Pages, the word processor in iWork. You can save and apply different styles, change the spacing, font, alignment etc. Very little of this is done in a similar way to the way it is done with Jaws though. When you mention tables, comments, and track changes, you hit on the few things that iWork and voiceover don't do well. You can access the content of tables in Pages, but only by copying them and pasting them into a document in Numbers, the spreadsheet program. You can read and see the various comments and changes, but it is completely disconnected from the body of the text, making them almost useless. Hopefully the next release of iWork will fix these problems. -Greg On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:58 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: > I'd be curious to know what the level of flexibility is when it comes to the > word processor. Someone once told me that in order to find out things about > underlining, justification and so on, you had to paste the text to the > system's text editor because the information was not readily available on > iWork. Can you use styles in the same way you can with MS Word? What does > table navigation look like, and how easy is it to review and edit documents > using comments, footnotes, revision histories and the like? One good thing > about Mac OSX is the availability of several full word processors as opposed > to just the Office package for which JAWS scripts have been optimized, > though to be fair I'm not sure how many of these Mac options are accessible > with VoiceOver. Sorry to use the thread to pose my own questions, but I've > been curious. > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 00:30:44 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 19:30:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal><8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <61A59BCE91454730835381C70D578BC6@OwnerPC> Briana, I don't use a Mac, but this is what I heard. The built in screen reader is a learning curve; you have more keys to press for each command. You almost need extra fingers! Also, its been my experience that schools primarily use windows and windows applications. I don't know whether all handouts such as powerpoint slides will be read alright on the Mac. If you need a lot of things embossed, you're better off with a PC with duxbury; most braille translation like DBT and tiger work with windows. -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 5:41 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come preloded into the computer? On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other Windows > screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand Mac > OS > X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application > interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application > windows are really similar across programs because people usually write > their apps with the tools provided by Apple. > Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, VoiceOver > also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to the > screen reader. > I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, and > VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. > > IC > On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: > >> Hey Briana, >> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right >> out >> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup window >> by >> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the PC. >> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is concerned. >> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and functional >> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word >> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't very >> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you can >> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard drive >> is >> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you weren't >> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and less >> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition to >> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >> extremely intuitive. >> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >> >> HTH >> >> Bernadetta >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 00:31:07 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 19:31:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> <30527116F29D4604BE7497870F3D6C82@Rufus> Message-ID: I mean does it come with the softwhere to do things like Powerpoint, Excell, and Word already in it? I will have a Braille Note note taker that I can use as a Braille Display. I was told that I would need a braille embosser in college because of math. On 3/5/11, Greg Aikens wrote: > Hi Joe, > I have been able to accomplish everything I need to do with Pages, the word > processor in iWork. You can save and apply different styles, change the > spacing, font, alignment etc. Very little of this is done in a similar way > to the way it is done with Jaws though. > > When you mention tables, comments, and track changes, you hit on the few > things that iWork and voiceover don't do well. You can access the content > of tables in Pages, but only by copying them and pasting them into a > document in Numbers, the spreadsheet program. You can read and see the > various comments and changes, but it is completely disconnected from the > body of the text, making them almost useless. > > Hopefully the next release of iWork will fix these problems. > > -Greg > On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:58 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: > >> I'd be curious to know what the level of flexibility is when it comes to >> the >> word processor. Someone once told me that in order to find out things >> about >> underlining, justification and so on, you had to paste the text to the >> system's text editor because the information was not readily available on >> iWork. Can you use styles in the same way you can with MS Word? What >> does >> table navigation look like, and how easy is it to review and edit >> documents >> using comments, footnotes, revision histories and the like? One good >> thing >> about Mac OSX is the availability of several full word processors as >> opposed >> to just the Office package for which JAWS scripts have been optimized, >> though to be fair I'm not sure how many of these Mac options are >> accessible >> with VoiceOver. Sorry to use the thread to pose my own questions, but >> I've >> been curious. >> >> Best, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sun Mar 6 00:46:29 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 19:46:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> <30527116F29D4604BE7497870F3D6C82@Rufus> Message-ID: No, you'd have to buy iWork for that. Jorge On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:31 PM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > I mean does it come with the softwhere to do things like Powerpoint, > Excell, and Word already in it? I will have a Braille Note note taker > that I can use as a Braille Display. I was told that I would need a > braille embosser in college because of math. > > On 3/5/11, Greg Aikens wrote: >> Hi Joe, >> I have been able to accomplish everything I need to do with Pages, the word >> processor in iWork. You can save and apply different styles, change the >> spacing, font, alignment etc. Very little of this is done in a similar way >> to the way it is done with Jaws though. >> >> When you mention tables, comments, and track changes, you hit on the few >> things that iWork and voiceover don't do well. You can access the content >> of tables in Pages, but only by copying them and pasting them into a >> document in Numbers, the spreadsheet program. You can read and see the >> various comments and changes, but it is completely disconnected from the >> body of the text, making them almost useless. >> >> Hopefully the next release of iWork will fix these problems. >> >> -Greg >> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:58 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: >> >>> I'd be curious to know what the level of flexibility is when it comes to >>> the >>> word processor. Someone once told me that in order to find out things >>> about >>> underlining, justification and so on, you had to paste the text to the >>> system's text editor because the information was not readily available on >>> iWork. Can you use styles in the same way you can with MS Word? What >>> does >>> table navigation look like, and how easy is it to review and edit >>> documents >>> using comments, footnotes, revision histories and the like? One good >>> thing >>> about Mac OSX is the availability of several full word processors as >>> opposed >>> to just the Office package for which JAWS scripts have been optimized, >>> though to be fair I'm not sure how many of these Mac options are >>> accessible >>> with VoiceOver. Sorry to use the thread to pose my own questions, but >>> I've >>> been curious. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From jkenn337 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 01:09:24 2011 From: jkenn337 at gmail.com (Josh Kennedy) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 20:09:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] nvda scripting manual Message-ID: <4D72DEC4.3040908@gmail.com> Hi If you want to write NVDA screen reader scripts to make it work with all kinds of applications, the manual is now on my blog at http://jkenn337.klangoblog.net have fun. josh From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Mar 6 02:47:49 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 20:47:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blindness and safety In-Reply-To: Message-ID: As a blind person, I do not feel less safe than I did as a sighted person. I believe a lot of what prevents attacks or violence, for anyone, is how you carry yourself. People who appear confident and self-possessed, tend to be viewed as victims less than those who lack these traits. Criminals look for easy targets, and people with disabilities are not necessarily considered easy targets based on their disability alone. Of course, we should always be cautious and avoid situations where our safety is in jeopardy. When I have night classes, I do not take the bus since I would have to traverse some dodgey parts of town, and usually my husband will come wait with me so I am not alone late at night on campus. When walking about town with a bag or purse, I keep it close to my body so people are less likely to grab it or pick-pocket something from it. I know a couple of blind people who have taken martial arts and self-defense classes, but again, I would advise this for anyone, not just blind people. There are ways to identify people non-visually-- even sighted people do not always see their attackers so they may be asked to identify a voice or describe other sounds at the time. If you ever feel unsafe, for whatever reason, take precautions and accommodate yourself so you feel comfortable. Bridgit From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 03:19:39 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 22:19:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations Message-ID: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> Hi all, Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your goals? I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for several reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the future I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on teaching blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in communications, development, something human services, or clerical support. I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I won’t get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the community there. My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public sector! Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, rather than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your commute is reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for clients. Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I know we should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, not blindness. Okay just had to vent some. Ashley From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Mar 6 03:28:34 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 21:28:34 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > > Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your goals? > I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for several > reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the future > I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on teaching > blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in > communications, development, something human services, or clerical support. > I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern > program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I won’t > get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the community > there. > > My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is > encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public > sector! > Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, rather > than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit > yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your commute is > reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? > > I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for clients. > Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I know we > should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, not > blindness. > > Okay just had to vent some. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From gpaikens at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 04:39:32 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 22:39:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> <30527116F29D4604BE7497870F3D6C82@Rufus> Message-ID: <708637AF-E504-4C2A-AC3B-5322FABD82E4@gmail.com> Hi Brianna, You can have Apple install the iWork suite on your mac when you purchase it. That will give you access to word documents, excel spreadsheets, and power point slides, all of which are compatible with iWork. It cost around $40 to get the software when I bought mine. The other popular option, which is free, is to use Open Office. I have not tried this but I hear it is reasonably accessible. Microsoft Office for mac is not accessible though. I agree that having access to a braille embosser could be very important for math. If that is a deal breaker for you, then maybe mac isn't the way to go. If that's the only thing holding you back then talk to others who have tried to produce braille with the mac. I have never tried. I know a lot of people make the switch from windows to mac because they hate windows or jaws or something, but the reason I switched was purely financial. I didn't have an open case with a rehab agency and I needed something to start the semester with. If you have help from voc rehab and they are willing to pay for jaws an jaws is what you are used to, I can't think of any major compelling reason to switch. It will require some significant time and learning to become comfortable on a new system, and you might not want to be doing that on top of everything else. But, if you are adventurous and you love to try new stuff, go for it. Like I said before, I love my mac. I just don't want to be unrealistic about the time involved to learn a new system or the current drawbacks on the mac side. -Greg On Mar 5, 2011, at 6:31 PM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > I mean does it come with the softwhere to do things like Powerpoint, > Excell, and Word already in it? I will have a Braille Note note taker > that I can use as a Braille Display. I was told that I would need a > braille embosser in college because of math. > > On 3/5/11, Greg Aikens wrote: >> Hi Joe, >> I have been able to accomplish everything I need to do with Pages, the word >> processor in iWork. You can save and apply different styles, change the >> spacing, font, alignment etc. Very little of this is done in a similar way >> to the way it is done with Jaws though. >> >> When you mention tables, comments, and track changes, you hit on the few >> things that iWork and voiceover don't do well. You can access the content >> of tables in Pages, but only by copying them and pasting them into a >> document in Numbers, the spreadsheet program. You can read and see the >> various comments and changes, but it is completely disconnected from the >> body of the text, making them almost useless. >> >> Hopefully the next release of iWork will fix these problems. >> >> -Greg >> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:58 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: >> >>> I'd be curious to know what the level of flexibility is when it comes to >>> the >>> word processor. Someone once told me that in order to find out things >>> about >>> underlining, justification and so on, you had to paste the text to the >>> system's text editor because the information was not readily available on >>> iWork. Can you use styles in the same way you can with MS Word? What >>> does >>> table navigation look like, and how easy is it to review and edit >>> documents >>> using comments, footnotes, revision histories and the like? One good >>> thing >>> about Mac OSX is the availability of several full word processors as >>> opposed >>> to just the Office package for which JAWS scripts have been optimized, >>> though to be fair I'm not sure how many of these Mac options are >>> accessible >>> with VoiceOver. Sorry to use the thread to pose my own questions, but >>> I've >>> been curious. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 04:43:32 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 23:43:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <72FDF2A556E744E5B6DE5A9BEFD1BCFE@OwnerPC> Hi, Oh what is the blind inc song? I've heard other rehab songs. I think they didn't pay for the university of your choice was because it was a private religious school; sponsoring religious institutions crosses the lines of church and state. Still there are other ways of paying for school like loans and scholarships if you really want to go to such a school. Glad you have a better counselor now. -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 10:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > > Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your goals? > I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for > several > reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the > future > I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on > teaching > blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in > communications, development, something human services, or clerical > support. > I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern > program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I won’t > get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the > community > there. > > My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is > encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public > sector! > Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, rather > than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit > yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your commute > is > reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? > > I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for clients. > Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I know > we > should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, not > blindness. > > Okay just had to vent some. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 05:02:51 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 00:02:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> <30527116F29D4604BE7497870F3D6C82@Rufus> Message-ID: <3FEFA47E-4A14-49D0-819A-BF4F1912A8D7@gmail.com> Hello, Even if you don't install iWork or Open Office, you can read and write word documents with Textedit, which comes with the operating system. Also, Nisus Writer is an excellent text processing application. Finally, you can buy each application in iWork separately from the mac app store. For example if you know you won't need Keynote, which is the iWork equivalent of powerpoint, you can just buy Pages and Numbers. A new version of iWork should be out this year (at least that's what people say) and hopefully it will be even more accessible than the current one. We'll have to wait and see! On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:31 PM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > I mean does it come with the softwhere to do things like Powerpoint, > Excell, and Word already in it? I will have a Braille Note note taker > that I can use as a Braille Display. I was told that I would need a > braille embosser in college because of math. > > On 3/5/11, Greg Aikens wrote: >> Hi Joe, >> I have been able to accomplish everything I need to do with Pages, the word >> processor in iWork. You can save and apply different styles, change the >> spacing, font, alignment etc. Very little of this is done in a similar way >> to the way it is done with Jaws though. >> >> When you mention tables, comments, and track changes, you hit on the few >> things that iWork and voiceover don't do well. You can access the content >> of tables in Pages, but only by copying them and pasting them into a >> document in Numbers, the spreadsheet program. You can read and see the >> various comments and changes, but it is completely disconnected from the >> body of the text, making them almost useless. >> >> Hopefully the next release of iWork will fix these problems. >> >> -Greg >> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:58 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: >> >>> I'd be curious to know what the level of flexibility is when it comes to >>> the >>> word processor. Someone once told me that in order to find out things >>> about >>> underlining, justification and so on, you had to paste the text to the >>> system's text editor because the information was not readily available on >>> iWork. Can you use styles in the same way you can with MS Word? What >>> does >>> table navigation look like, and how easy is it to review and edit >>> documents >>> using comments, footnotes, revision histories and the like? One good >>> thing >>> about Mac OSX is the availability of several full word processors as >>> opposed >>> to just the Office package for which JAWS scripts have been optimized, >>> though to be fair I'm not sure how many of these Mac options are >>> accessible >>> with VoiceOver. Sorry to use the thread to pose my own questions, but >>> I've >>> been curious. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 05:10:40 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 00:10:40 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: <61A59BCE91454730835381C70D578BC6@OwnerPC> References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal><8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> <61A59BCE91454730835381C70D578BC6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Commands in VoiceOver are certainly not hard. To me they actually end up making a lot more sense than Jaws commands, although this might not be the same for other people. Also, you can control a laptop with the trackpad which is very similar to using an iPhone with one hand. VoiceOver can also be controlled with the numpad on keyboards that have one, and with the arrow keys alone if you are just navigating websites etc. In the end, it really doesn't take any extra effort to use it, but there is a learning curve. To make it simple, elements on the screen are very well organized, and you need to interact with certain items to find other items inside. What this means is that if you know what you are looking for, finding it is very, very fast. Also VoiceOver allows you to literally type whatever you are looking for and get to it quickly. This works in any context, in any window in any applications. I like that part about it. I don't know, I would say if you are in a situation where you need to be 100% productive the day after you get your computer, maybe getting a mac right now is not the best choice because you'll have to learn how to use it. Maybe you can get Windows installed on it until you have time to actually learn the mac. But if you are willing to read the documentation and you are willing to discover a very different approach to screen reading software which actually works well, you'll probably love Apple computers. On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:30 PM, wrote: > Briana, > I don't use a Mac, but this is what I heard. > The built in screen reader is a learning curve; you have more keys to press for each command. You almost need extra fingers! > Also, its been my experience that schools primarily use windows and windows applications. > I don't know whether all handouts such as powerpoint slides will be read alright on the Mac. > If you need a lot of things embossed, you're better off with a PC with duxbury; most braille translation like DBT and tiger work with windows. > > > -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko > Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 5:41 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs > > One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the > vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; > but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac > as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to > learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come > preloded into the computer? > > > On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other Windows >> screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand Mac OS >> X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application >> interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application >> windows are really similar across programs because people usually write >> their apps with the tools provided by Apple. >> Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, VoiceOver >> also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to the >> screen reader. >> I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, and >> VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. >> >> IC >> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: >> >>> Hey Briana, >>> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >>> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right out >>> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >>> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup window by >>> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the PC. >>> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is concerned. >>> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >>> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and functional >>> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word >>> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't very >>> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >>> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you can >>> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >>> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard drive is >>> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you weren't >>> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >>> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >>> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and less >>> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition to >>> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >>> extremely intuitive. >>> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >>> >>> HTH >>> >>> Bernadetta >>> >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Mar 6 05:12:08 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 23:12:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: <72FDF2A556E744E5B6DE5A9BEFD1BCFE@OwnerPC> References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> <72FDF2A556E744E5B6DE5A9BEFD1BCFE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, If you attended the Karaoke show, last year, you would have heard it. Sarah Alawami could probably help you with the lyrics, because she was there. I really had a great time in Dallas, and I hope to go to Orlando this year. Blessings, Joshua On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi, > Oh what is the blind inc song? I've heard other rehab songs. > I think they didn't pay for the university of your choice was because it was > a private religious school; sponsoring religious institutions crosses the > lines of church and state. > Still there are other ways of paying for school like loans and scholarships > if you really want to go to such a school. > > Glad you have a better counselor now. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 10:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations > > The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. > After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' > expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She > wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the > state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my > major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, > being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. > All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone > that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your goals? >> I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for >> several >> reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the >> future >> I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on >> teaching >> blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in >> communications, development, something human services, or clerical >> support. >> I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern >> program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I >> won’t >> get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the >> community >> there. >> >> My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is >> encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public >> sector! >> Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, rather >> than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit >> yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your commute >> is >> reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? >> >> I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for clients. >> Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I know >> we >> should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, not >> blindness. >> >> Okay just had to vent some. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From gcazares10 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 05:27:14 2011 From: gcazares10 at gmail.com (Gabriel Cazares) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 23:27:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Nfbnet-members-list] Last month for the 2011 Writers' division Writing contest In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Robert Leslie Newman Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2011 16:30:30 -0600 Subject: [Nfbnet-members-list] Last month for the 2011 Writers' division Writing contest To: nfbnet-members-list at nfbnet.org 2011 NFB Writing Contest The annual youth and adult writing contests sponsored by the Writers' Division of the NFB, opened January 1st and will close April 1st. Adult contests, poetry, fiction and non-fiction, are open to all entrants eighteen years and over. The youth contests are to promote Braille literacy and all poetry and fiction entries are required to be submitted in Braille. The age groups are divided into three categories: first through sixth grades, seventh and eighth grades, and ninth through twelfth grades. Prizes for contest winners range up to $100 for adult categories and up to $25 for youth categories. All contest winners will be announced at the Writers' Division business meeting during the NFB national convention to be held in Orlando, Florida, the first week of July, 2011. In addition, shortly after convention, a list of winners will appear on the Writers' Division Website, <../2010%20contest%20stuff/notices%20and%20stuff/www.nfb-writers-division.htm>www.nfb-writers-division.org. First, second, and third place winners in each category may be published in the Writers' Division magazine, "Slate & Style." For additional contest details and submission guidelines, go to the Writers' Division Website, <../2010%20contest%20stuff/notices%20and%20stuff/www.nfb-writers-division.htm>www.nfb-writers-division.org. President NFB Writers' Division Robert Leslie Newman Email- newmanrl at cox.net Division Website Http://www.nfb-writers-division.org -- Gabriel M. Cazares, 2nd Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students (TABS) www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html Phone: 713-581-0619 "Of course, loyalty to one's friends is an important principle. But so is writing what you believe--otherwise, why bother to write at all?"-Arianna Huffington From orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 07:17:46 2011 From: orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com (Laura Glowacki) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 01:17:46 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: >From what I know, an educational institution is an educational institution, and rehab cannot refuse to pay merely because it's private and/or religiously run. Actually one of my best friends went to a small private Bible college and rehab helped her with most of it. They do have rules on just how much they will pay towards private though, whereas public, at least in my state, they'll cover almost 100% of the costs. That's often because private schools are much more expensive than their public counterparts from what I understand, nothing against the private schools in general. I'm really glad you got a new counselor too, because that just doesn't sound right. Laura ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Lester" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > > Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of > your goals? > I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but > for several > reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe > in the future > I can go to grad school for a masters in education with > emphasis on teaching > blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in > communications, development, something human services, or > clerical support. > I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the > intern > program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just > feel I won’t > get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to > the community > there. > > My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel > she is > encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the > public > sector! > Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my > home, rather > than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why > limit > yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as > your commute is > reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? > > I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for > clients. > Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many > areas; I know we > should be defined by our other strength and abilities and > interests, not > blindness. > > Okay just had to vent some. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com From orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 07:23:12 2011 From: orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com (Laura Glowacki) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 01:23:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind and visually impaired students in education? Message-ID: <87CB609D079A49AEB1AA930A875824D6@LAURASCOMPUTER> Ashley's thread made me think of this. Over the past several years, I have heard of at least 5 or 6 different blind or visually impaired students at 5 or 6 different schools being discouraged from going in to anything in the education field. Tactics have ranged from intimidating departmental meetings to find out exactly how the blind person would do everything they were expected to do as an education major even before the major was fully declared (unrealistic as even sighted students don't know that when they first begin), to down right being forced out of the program towards the end of their degree through obvious discrimination and not just because they were poor students and/or teachers.. Is anyone else hearing stories like these? Laura From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 07:33:04 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 02:33:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <5F7BEF6E69F844BFADCF1AE13AC8D161@hometwxakonvzn> Joshua, I'm in the ministry, and I'm totally blind. I told my councilor I wanted to go into the ministry, and she told me in a nutshell, that my goal wasn't realistic That I needed to eat! So I closed my case with the Florida division of blind services, and I received a lot of backlash because of it, but look where the Lord's brought me? I've obtained my masters degree in theology, and now I'm going for my doctorate, and had I listened to my councilor, I know I wouldn't be where I am today because I'd rather listen to God rather than men! If God's called you into the ministry, then Why are you letting the state dictate where you can and can't go to school? If the Lord wants you to go to ORU, then he's going to make a way for you to get there! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laura Glowacki" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 2:17 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations >From what I know, an educational institution is an educational institution, and rehab cannot refuse to pay merely because it's private and/or religiously run. Actually one of my best friends went to a small private Bible college and rehab helped her with most of it. They do have rules on just how much they will pay towards private though, whereas public, at least in my state, they'll cover almost 100% of the costs. That's often because private schools are much more expensive than their public counterparts from what I understand, nothing against the private schools in general. I'm really glad you got a new counselor too, because that just doesn't sound right. Laura ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Lester" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > > Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of > your goals? > I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but > for several > reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe > in the future > I can go to grad school for a masters in education with > emphasis on teaching > blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in > communications, development, something human services, or > clerical support. > I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the > intern > program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just > feel I won’t > get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to > the community > there. > > My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel > she is > encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the > public > sector! > Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my > home, rather > than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why > limit > yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as > your commute is > reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? > > I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for > clients. > Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many > areas; I know we > should be defined by our other strength and abilities and > interests, not > blindness. > > Okay just had to vent some. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From treyman19 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 07:34:27 2011 From: treyman19 at gmail.com (Trey Bradley) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 01:34:27 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind and visually impaired students in education? In-Reply-To: <87CB609D079A49AEB1AA930A875824D6@LAURASCOMPUTER> References: <87CB609D079A49AEB1AA930A875824D6@LAURASCOMPUTER> Message-ID: Hi I have heard these situations quite a bit from some of my friends. On 3/6/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > Ashley's thread made me think of this. Over the past several > years, I have heard of at least 5 or 6 different blind or > visually impaired students at 5 or 6 different schools being > discouraged from going in to anything in the education field. > Tactics have ranged from intimidating departmental meetings to > find out exactly how the blind person would do everything they > were expected to do as an education major even before the major > was fully declared (unrealistic as even sighted students don't > know that when they first begin), to down right being forced out > of the program towards the end of their degree through obvious > discrimination and not just because they were poor students > and/or teachers.. > > Is anyone else hearing stories like these? > > Laura > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/treyman19%40gmail.com > -- Roosevelt Bradley From startrekcafe at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 04:19:00 2011 From: startrekcafe at gmail.com (Marvin Hunkin) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 20:19:00 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible asset inventory and benchmarking software Message-ID: hi. what assest inventory and behnchmarking software works well with ajws 12, and windows vista? any suggestions, or point me int he right direction. marvin. From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Mar 6 15:14:15 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 09:14:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Laura, I'm going to a community college now, but I'd like to go to IBC, (Indiana Bible College,) via corespondence courses. Hopefully, the state will pay for that! Blessings, Joshua On 3/6/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > >From what I know, an educational institution is an educational > institution, and rehab cannot refuse to pay merely because it's > private and/or religiously run. Actually one of my best friends > went to a small private Bible college and rehab helped her with > most of it. > > They do have rules on just how much they will pay towards private > though, whereas public, at least in my state, they'll cover > almost 100% of the costs. That's often because private schools > are much more expensive than their public counterparts from what > I understand, nothing against the private schools in general. > > I'm really glad you got a new counselor too, because that just > doesn't sound right. > > Laura > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 9:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations > > > The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the > beginning. > After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab > counselors' > expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She > wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the > state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my > major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for > it, > being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't > know. > All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have > someone > that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net > wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of >> your goals? >> I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but >> for several >> reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe >> in the future >> I can go to grad school for a masters in education with >> emphasis on teaching >> blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in >> communications, development, something human services, or >> clerical support. >> I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the >> intern >> program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just >> feel I won’t >> get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to >> the community >> there. >> >> My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel >> she is >> encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the >> public >> sector! >> Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my >> home, rather >> than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why >> limit >> yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as >> your commute is >> reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? >> >> I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for >> clients. >> Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many >> areas; I know we >> should be defined by our other strength and abilities and >> interests, not >> blindness. >> >> Okay just had to vent some. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 15:16:47 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:16:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC><72FDF2A556E744E5B6DE5A9BEFD1BCFE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Joshua, So since you didn't go to ORU where did you go and what was your major? Rj is right; we shouldn't let the state dictate our goals or where we can or can't go to school. I can understand why they didn't pay for your schooling; but they shouldn't discourage that goal; many blind people are pastors and other ministerial things. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 12:12 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations Ashley, If you attended the Karaoke show, last year, you would have heard it. Sarah Alawami could probably help you with the lyrics, because she was there. I really had a great time in Dallas, and I hope to go to Orlando this year. Blessings, Joshua On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi, > Oh what is the blind inc song? I've heard other rehab songs. > I think they didn't pay for the university of your choice was because it > was > a private religious school; sponsoring religious institutions crosses the > lines of church and state. > Still there are other ways of paying for school like loans and > scholarships > if you really want to go to such a school. > > Glad you have a better counselor now. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 10:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations > > The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. > After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' > expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She > wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the > state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my > major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, > being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. > All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone > that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your goals? >> I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for >> several >> reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the >> future >> I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on >> teaching >> blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in >> communications, development, something human services, or clerical >> support. >> I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern >> program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I >> won’t >> get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the >> community >> there. >> >> My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is >> encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public >> sector! >> Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, >> rather >> than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit >> yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your commute >> is >> reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? >> >> I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for clients. >> Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I know >> we >> should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, not >> blindness. >> >> Okay just had to vent some. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 15:19:44 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:19:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Well if they don't pay for it, then there's always scholarships and grants if your family can't help out. In my state they pay for state schools but not private religious ones; I don't know about out of state schools other than they do not pay the full cost of out of state schools. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 10:14 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations Laura, I'm going to a community college now, but I'd like to go to IBC, (Indiana Bible College,) via corespondence courses. Hopefully, the state will pay for that! Blessings, Joshua On 3/6/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > >From what I know, an educational institution is an educational > institution, and rehab cannot refuse to pay merely because it's > private and/or religiously run. Actually one of my best friends > went to a small private Bible college and rehab helped her with > most of it. > > They do have rules on just how much they will pay towards private > though, whereas public, at least in my state, they'll cover > almost 100% of the costs. That's often because private schools > are much more expensive than their public counterparts from what > I understand, nothing against the private schools in general. > > I'm really glad you got a new counselor too, because that just > doesn't sound right. > > Laura > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joshua Lester" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 9:28 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations > > > The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the > beginning. > After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab > counselors' > expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She > wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the > state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my > major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for > it, > being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't > know. > All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have > someone > that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net > wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of >> your goals? >> I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but >> for several >> reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe >> in the future >> I can go to grad school for a masters in education with >> emphasis on teaching >> blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in >> communications, development, something human services, or >> clerical support. >> I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the >> intern >> program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just >> feel I won’t >> get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to >> the community >> there. >> >> My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel >> she is >> encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the >> public >> sector! >> Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my >> home, rather >> than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why >> limit >> yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as >> your commute is >> reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? >> >> I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for >> clients. >> Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many >> areas; I know we >> should be defined by our other strength and abilities and >> interests, not >> blindness. >> >> Okay just had to vent some. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 15:23:26 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:23:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: <5F7BEF6E69F844BFADCF1AE13AC8D161@hometwxakonvzn> References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> <5F7BEF6E69F844BFADCF1AE13AC8D161@hometwxakonvzn> Message-ID: <833467D709F74DE79B09EFD1159777A1@OwnerPC> Rj, Good for you for sticking with your goals and dreams. Where did you obtain your bachelors and masters? Is your goal to be a pastor? I assume you found other ways of financial support, maybe family, if you did not get sponsorship from vr. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 2:33 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations Joshua, I'm in the ministry, and I'm totally blind. I told my councilor I wanted to go into the ministry, and she told me in a nutshell, that my goal wasn't realistic That I needed to eat! So I closed my case with the Florida division of blind services, and I received a lot of backlash because of it, but look where the Lord's brought me? I've obtained my masters degree in theology, and now I'm going for my doctorate, and had I listened to my councilor, I know I wouldn't be where I am today because I'd rather listen to God rather than men! If God's called you into the ministry, then Why are you letting the state dictate where you can and can't go to school? If the Lord wants you to go to ORU, then he's going to make a way for you to get there! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laura Glowacki" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 2:17 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations >From what I know, an educational institution is an educational institution, and rehab cannot refuse to pay merely because it's private and/or religiously run. Actually one of my best friends went to a small private Bible college and rehab helped her with most of it. They do have rules on just how much they will pay towards private though, whereas public, at least in my state, they'll cover almost 100% of the costs. That's often because private schools are much more expensive than their public counterparts from what I understand, nothing against the private schools in general. I'm really glad you got a new counselor too, because that just doesn't sound right. Laura ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joshua Lester" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > > Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of > your goals? > I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but > for several > reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe > in the future > I can go to grad school for a masters in education with > emphasis on teaching > blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in > communications, development, something human services, or > clerical support. > I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the > intern > program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just > feel I won’t > get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to > the community > there. > > My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel > she is > encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the > public > sector! > Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my > home, rather > than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why > limit > yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as > your commute is > reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? > > I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for > clients. > Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many > areas; I know we > should be defined by our other strength and abilities and > interests, not > blindness. > > Okay just had to vent some. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 15:25:18 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:25:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ribbon help needed for Word 2010 Message-ID: Hey guys, I'm trying to write a paper in APA style, and I need to know how to do a few things. I have JAWS 11, not 12, so I can't change the ribbon format to be more accessible yet. But if I go to a tab (say Insert for page numbers) with Alt+ a letter (like I for insert), then press the letter assigned to that option, I can get to it.I'ms ure some of you know what I'm talking about, right? So, these are the settings I need to do: 1. In the uppper right hand corner of every page, one-half inch down, a shortened version of the title of the paper, five spaces, then the page number 2. One-inch margins on all sides. 3. Double-spacing on the entire paper. 4. Hanging indent for Reference page. I think that's it. Hanging indent I know how to get to, but I don't know what the hotkey is, though I know there is one. Anyone remember it? Thanks for any h elp you can give, Jewel -- ~Jewel Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com From gpaikens at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 15:35:42 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 09:35:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Ribbon help needed for Word 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <694C25B1-5A65-4691-97EA-91B91F820B71@gmail.com> Hi Jewel, I believe the shortcut for double spacing is Ctrl+2, so just highlight the entire paper and use that. I think the shortcut for hanging indent is Ctrl+T. Good luck and my apologies if this isn't correct. Greg On Mar 6, 2011, at 9:25 AM, Jewel S. wrote: > Hey guys, > I'm trying to write a paper in APA style, and I need to know how to do > a few things. I have JAWS 11, not 12, so I can't change the ribbon > format to be more accessible yet. But if I go to a tab (say Insert for > page numbers) with Alt+ a letter (like I for insert), then press the > letter assigned to that option, I can get to it.I'ms ure some of you > know what I'm talking about, right? > > So, these are the settings I need to do: > 1. In the uppper right hand corner of every page, one-half inch down, > a shortened version of the title of the paper, five spaces, then the > page number > 2. One-inch margins on all sides. > 3. Double-spacing on the entire paper. > 4. Hanging indent for Reference page. > > I think that's it. Hanging indent I know how to get to, but I don't > know what the hotkey is, though I know there is one. Anyone remember > it? > > Thanks for any h elp you can give, > Jewel > -- > ~Jewel > Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! > Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 16:39:21 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 11:39:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> <61A59BCE91454730835381C70D578BC6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hopefully my VR councilar will get me a laptop; however, I'm worried that she will get me a really out of date laptop. That's what she did with my friend. That's one of the reasons why I was looking into a Mac. On 3/6/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Commands in VoiceOver are certainly not hard. To me they actually end up > making a lot more sense than Jaws commands, although this might not be the > same for other people. Also, you can control a laptop with the trackpad > which is very similar to using an iPhone with one hand. VoiceOver can also > be controlled with the numpad on keyboards that have one, and with the arrow > keys alone if you are just navigating websites etc. > In the end, it really doesn't take any extra effort to use it, but there is > a learning curve. To make it simple, elements on the screen are very well > organized, and you need to interact with certain items to find other items > inside. What this means is that if you know what you are looking for, > finding it is very, very fast. Also VoiceOver allows you to literally type > whatever you are looking for and get to it quickly. This works in any > context, in any window in any applications. I like that part about it. > I don't know, I would say if you are in a situation where you need to be > 100% productive the day after you get your computer, maybe getting a mac > right now is not the best choice because you'll have to learn how to use it. > Maybe you can get Windows installed on it until you have time to actually > learn the mac. But if you are willing to read the documentation and you are > willing to discover a very different approach to screen reading software > which actually works well, you'll probably love Apple computers. > On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:30 PM, > wrote: > >> Briana, >> I don't use a Mac, but this is what I heard. >> The built in screen reader is a learning curve; you have more keys to >> press for each command. You almost need extra fingers! >> Also, its been my experience that schools primarily use windows and >> windows applications. >> I don't know whether all handouts such as powerpoint slides will be read >> alright on the Mac. >> If you need a lot of things embossed, you're better off with a PC with >> duxbury; most braille translation like DBT and tiger work with windows. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko >> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 5:41 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs >> >> One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the >> vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; >> but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac >> as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to >> learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come >> preloded into the computer? >> >> >> On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other Windows >>> screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand Mac >>> OS >>> X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application >>> interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application >>> windows are really similar across programs because people usually write >>> their apps with the tools provided by Apple. >>> Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, VoiceOver >>> also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to the >>> screen reader. >>> I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, >>> and >>> VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. >>> >>> IC >>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Briana, >>>> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >>>> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right >>>> out >>>> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >>>> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup window >>>> by >>>> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the PC. >>>> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is concerned. >>>> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >>>> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and functional >>>> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word >>>> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't very >>>> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >>>> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you can >>>> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >>>> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard drive >>>> is >>>> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you >>>> weren't >>>> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >>>> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >>>> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and less >>>> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition >>>> to >>>> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >>>> extremely intuitive. >>>> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >>>> >>>> HTH >>>> >>>> Bernadetta >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Mar 6 18:30:03 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 12:30:03 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> <72FDF2A556E744E5B6DE5A9BEFD1BCFE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, I'm attending the Phillips Community College, getting my basics out of the way. I'd like to go to IBC, (Indiana Bible College,) to pursue my ministry goals. Laura said that Rehab paid for her friend's education at a Bible college, so why wouldn't they do that in Arkansas? Could it be because ORU is in Oklahoma? Still, there are no Bible colleges worth anything in arkansas. I've switched denominations, so ORU wouldn't be for me now. I was AOG, (Assembly of God,) then. I'm UPCI, (United Pentecostal Church International,) now. Blessings, Joshua On 3/6/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Joshua, > So since you didn't go to ORU where did you go and what was your major? > Rj is right; we shouldn't let the state dictate our goals or where we can or > can't go to school. > I can understand why they didn't pay for your schooling; but they shouldn't > discourage that goal; many blind people are pastors and other ministerial > things. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 12:12 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations > > Ashley, If you attended the Karaoke show, last year, you would have > heard it. Sarah Alawami could probably help you with the lyrics, > because she was there. I really had a great time in Dallas, and I hope > to go to Orlando this year. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi, >> Oh what is the blind inc song? I've heard other rehab songs. >> I think they didn't pay for the university of your choice was because it >> was >> a private religious school; sponsoring religious institutions crosses the >> lines of church and state. >> Still there are other ways of paying for school like loans and >> scholarships >> if you really want to go to such a school. >> >> Glad you have a better counselor now. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 10:28 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations >> >> The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. >> After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' >> expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She >> wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the >> state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my >> major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, >> being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. >> All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone >> that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your goals? >>> I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for >>> several >>> reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the >>> future >>> I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on >>> teaching >>> blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in >>> communications, development, something human services, or clerical >>> support. >>> I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern >>> program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I >>> won’t >>> get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the >>> community >>> there. >>> >>> My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is >>> encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public >>> sector! >>> Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, >>> rather >>> than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit >>> yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your commute >>> is >>> reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? >>> >>> I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for clients. >>> Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I know >>> we >>> should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, not >>> blindness. >>> >>> Okay just had to vent some. >>> Ashley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 18:41:39 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 10:41:39 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs membership committee presents: Summer programs: a conference call. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello NABS, It’s amazing how much stress we go through on a daily basis. Between homework, notetaking, tests, family, significant others where applicable, etc, the much-needed summer break seems so far away, but in fact, will be here > before we know it. And thinking about it seems pointless because of what’s already on your plate. But what if you could have it taken care of and not have to think about it till you’re free, free, free? Perhaps your lovely membership committee can assist you in making your plans with this month’s conference call, all about summer programs at NFB training centers. Representatives from the Louisiana and Colorado centers, Blind Inc, and Blind Industries and Services of maryland will be on hand to talk about and answer > questions about their respective programs. Who: The Membership Committee of the National Association of Blind Students What: Conference call on NFB summer programs When: March 6, 2011 at 7 p.m. ET. Where: (712) 775-7100, followed by access code 257963 Why: So that you can knock out your summer plans and coast through the rest of the academic year. Please spread the word and join us for an exciting call about a summer to look forward to. Beach attire optional. See you there. NABS Membership Committee -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From ignasicambra at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 19:13:18 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 14:13:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> <61A59BCE91454730835381C70D578BC6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <518A5958-7651-4A85-98C5-53A481B0E46B@gmail.com> A basic MacBook pro will cost you less than a Jaws license... Sent from my iPhone On Mar 6, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > Hopefully my VR councilar will get me a laptop; however, I'm worried > that she will get me a really out of date laptop. That's what she did > with my friend. That's one of the reasons why I was looking into a > Mac. > > On 3/6/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> Commands in VoiceOver are certainly not hard. To me they actually end up >> making a lot more sense than Jaws commands, although this might not be the >> same for other people. Also, you can control a laptop with the trackpad >> which is very similar to using an iPhone with one hand. VoiceOver can also >> be controlled with the numpad on keyboards that have one, and with the arrow >> keys alone if you are just navigating websites etc. >> In the end, it really doesn't take any extra effort to use it, but there is >> a learning curve. To make it simple, elements on the screen are very well >> organized, and you need to interact with certain items to find other items >> inside. What this means is that if you know what you are looking for, >> finding it is very, very fast. Also VoiceOver allows you to literally type >> whatever you are looking for and get to it quickly. This works in any >> context, in any window in any applications. I like that part about it. >> I don't know, I would say if you are in a situation where you need to be >> 100% productive the day after you get your computer, maybe getting a mac >> right now is not the best choice because you'll have to learn how to use it. >> Maybe you can get Windows installed on it until you have time to actually >> learn the mac. But if you are willing to read the documentation and you are >> willing to discover a very different approach to screen reading software >> which actually works well, you'll probably love Apple computers. >> On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:30 PM, >> wrote: >> >>> Briana, >>> I don't use a Mac, but this is what I heard. >>> The built in screen reader is a learning curve; you have more keys to >>> press for each command. You almost need extra fingers! >>> Also, its been my experience that schools primarily use windows and >>> windows applications. >>> I don't know whether all handouts such as powerpoint slides will be read >>> alright on the Mac. >>> If you need a lot of things embossed, you're better off with a PC with >>> duxbury; most braille translation like DBT and tiger work with windows. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko >>> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 5:41 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs >>> >>> One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the >>> vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; >>> but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac >>> as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to >>> learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come >>> preloded into the computer? >>> >>> >>> On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>> I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other Windows >>>> screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand Mac >>>> OS >>>> X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application >>>> interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application >>>> windows are really similar across programs because people usually write >>>> their apps with the tools provided by Apple. >>>> Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, VoiceOver >>>> also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to the >>>> screen reader. >>>> I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, >>>> and >>>> VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. >>>> >>>> IC >>>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey Briana, >>>>> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >>>>> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right >>>>> out >>>>> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >>>>> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup window >>>>> by >>>>> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the PC. >>>>> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is concerned. >>>>> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >>>>> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and functional >>>>> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word >>>>> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't very >>>>> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >>>>> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you can >>>>> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >>>>> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard drive >>>>> is >>>>> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you >>>>> weren't >>>>> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >>>>> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >>>>> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and less >>>>> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition >>>>> to >>>>> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >>>>> extremely intuitive. >>>>> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >>>>> >>>>> HTH >>>>> >>>>> Bernadetta >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 19:23:06 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 14:23:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: <518A5958-7651-4A85-98C5-53A481B0E46B@gmail.com> References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> <61A59BCE91454730835381C70D578BC6@OwnerPC> <518A5958-7651-4A85-98C5-53A481B0E46B@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm worried about what kind of a laptop my VR councelar will get me; with a Mac, I really only have to specify that I want I Works installed on it. On 3/6/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > A basic MacBook pro will cost you less than a Jaws license... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 6, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > >> Hopefully my VR councilar will get me a laptop; however, I'm worried >> that she will get me a really out of date laptop. That's what she did >> with my friend. That's one of the reasons why I was looking into a >> Mac. >> >> On 3/6/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> Commands in VoiceOver are certainly not hard. To me they actually end up >>> making a lot more sense than Jaws commands, although this might not be >>> the >>> same for other people. Also, you can control a laptop with the trackpad >>> which is very similar to using an iPhone with one hand. VoiceOver can >>> also >>> be controlled with the numpad on keyboards that have one, and with the >>> arrow >>> keys alone if you are just navigating websites etc. >>> In the end, it really doesn't take any extra effort to use it, but there >>> is >>> a learning curve. To make it simple, elements on the screen are very well >>> organized, and you need to interact with certain items to find other >>> items >>> inside. What this means is that if you know what you are looking for, >>> finding it is very, very fast. Also VoiceOver allows you to literally >>> type >>> whatever you are looking for and get to it quickly. This works in any >>> context, in any window in any applications. I like that part about it. >>> I don't know, I would say if you are in a situation where you need to be >>> 100% productive the day after you get your computer, maybe getting a mac >>> right now is not the best choice because you'll have to learn how to use >>> it. >>> Maybe you can get Windows installed on it until you have time to actually >>> learn the mac. But if you are willing to read the documentation and you >>> are >>> willing to discover a very different approach to screen reading software >>> which actually works well, you'll probably love Apple computers. >>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:30 PM, >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Briana, >>>> I don't use a Mac, but this is what I heard. >>>> The built in screen reader is a learning curve; you have more keys to >>>> press for each command. You almost need extra fingers! >>>> Also, its been my experience that schools primarily use windows and >>>> windows applications. >>>> I don't know whether all handouts such as powerpoint slides will be read >>>> alright on the Mac. >>>> If you need a lot of things embossed, you're better off with a PC with >>>> duxbury; most braille translation like DBT and tiger work with windows. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 5:41 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs >>>> >>>> One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the >>>> vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; >>>> but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac >>>> as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to >>>> learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come >>>> preloded into the computer? >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>> I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other >>>>> Windows >>>>> screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand >>>>> Mac >>>>> OS >>>>> X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application >>>>> interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application >>>>> windows are really similar across programs because people usually write >>>>> their apps with the tools provided by Apple. >>>>> Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, >>>>> VoiceOver >>>>> also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to >>>>> the >>>>> screen reader. >>>>> I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, >>>>> and >>>>> VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. >>>>> >>>>> IC >>>>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hey Briana, >>>>>> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >>>>>> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right >>>>>> out >>>>>> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >>>>>> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup >>>>>> window >>>>>> by >>>>>> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the >>>>>> PC. >>>>>> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is >>>>>> concerned. >>>>>> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >>>>>> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and >>>>>> functional >>>>>> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word >>>>>> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't >>>>>> very >>>>>> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >>>>>> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you >>>>>> can >>>>>> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >>>>>> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard >>>>>> drive >>>>>> is >>>>>> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you >>>>>> weren't >>>>>> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >>>>>> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >>>>>> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and >>>>>> less >>>>>> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition >>>>>> to >>>>>> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >>>>>> extremely intuitive. >>>>>> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >>>>>> >>>>>> HTH >>>>>> >>>>>> Bernadetta >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 19:58:02 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 14:58:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal><8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com><61A59BCE91454730835381C70D578BC6@OwnerPC><518A5958-7651-4A85-98C5-53A481B0E46B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3D3AB862063C46A39A11329468231C46@OwnerPC> Then tell them what type of laptop you want such as windows 7 with all the microsoft suite; you might want a well known brand like Dell -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 2:23 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs I'm worried about what kind of a laptop my VR councelar will get me; with a Mac, I really only have to specify that I want I Works installed on it. On 3/6/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > A basic MacBook pro will cost you less than a Jaws license... > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 6, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > >> Hopefully my VR councilar will get me a laptop; however, I'm worried >> that she will get me a really out of date laptop. That's what she did >> with my friend. That's one of the reasons why I was looking into a >> Mac. >> >> On 3/6/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> Commands in VoiceOver are certainly not hard. To me they actually end up >>> making a lot more sense than Jaws commands, although this might not be >>> the >>> same for other people. Also, you can control a laptop with the trackpad >>> which is very similar to using an iPhone with one hand. VoiceOver can >>> also >>> be controlled with the numpad on keyboards that have one, and with the >>> arrow >>> keys alone if you are just navigating websites etc. >>> In the end, it really doesn't take any extra effort to use it, but there >>> is >>> a learning curve. To make it simple, elements on the screen are very >>> well >>> organized, and you need to interact with certain items to find other >>> items >>> inside. What this means is that if you know what you are looking for, >>> finding it is very, very fast. Also VoiceOver allows you to literally >>> type >>> whatever you are looking for and get to it quickly. This works in any >>> context, in any window in any applications. I like that part about it. >>> I don't know, I would say if you are in a situation where you need to be >>> 100% productive the day after you get your computer, maybe getting a mac >>> right now is not the best choice because you'll have to learn how to use >>> it. >>> Maybe you can get Windows installed on it until you have time to >>> actually >>> learn the mac. But if you are willing to read the documentation and you >>> are >>> willing to discover a very different approach to screen reading software >>> which actually works well, you'll probably love Apple computers. >>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:30 PM, >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Briana, >>>> I don't use a Mac, but this is what I heard. >>>> The built in screen reader is a learning curve; you have more keys to >>>> press for each command. You almost need extra fingers! >>>> Also, its been my experience that schools primarily use windows and >>>> windows applications. >>>> I don't know whether all handouts such as powerpoint slides will be >>>> read >>>> alright on the Mac. >>>> If you need a lot of things embossed, you're better off with a PC with >>>> duxbury; most braille translation like DBT and tiger work with windows. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 5:41 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs >>>> >>>> One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the >>>> vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; >>>> but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac >>>> as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to >>>> learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come >>>> preloded into the computer? >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>> I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other >>>>> Windows >>>>> screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand >>>>> Mac >>>>> OS >>>>> X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that >>>>> application >>>>> interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application >>>>> windows are really similar across programs because people usually >>>>> write >>>>> their apps with the tools provided by Apple. >>>>> Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, >>>>> VoiceOver >>>>> also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to >>>>> the >>>>> screen reader. >>>>> I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, >>>>> and >>>>> VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. >>>>> >>>>> IC >>>>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hey Briana, >>>>>> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >>>>>> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader >>>>>> right >>>>>> out >>>>>> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >>>>>> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup >>>>>> window >>>>>> by >>>>>> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the >>>>>> PC. >>>>>> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is >>>>>> concerned. >>>>>> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >>>>>> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and >>>>>> functional >>>>>> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a >>>>>> word >>>>>> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't >>>>>> very >>>>>> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >>>>>> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you >>>>>> can >>>>>> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >>>>>> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard >>>>>> drive >>>>>> is >>>>>> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you >>>>>> weren't >>>>>> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >>>>>> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >>>>>> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and >>>>>> less >>>>>> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when >>>>>> transition >>>>>> to >>>>>> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >>>>>> extremely intuitive. >>>>>> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >>>>>> >>>>>> HTH >>>>>> >>>>>> Bernadetta >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 6 20:01:59 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 15:01:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal><8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com><61A59BCE91454730835381C70D578BC6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <67D71BEA6E2A4A2381445B281DD456F6@OwnerPC> Tell the counselor what operating system you want; windows 7 is the latest type of windows. I think if you are clear, it will be hard for them to get you old equipment and if they do, then you can complain to the supervisor that that is not what you requested. -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 11:39 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs Hopefully my VR councilar will get me a laptop; however, I'm worried that she will get me a really out of date laptop. That's what she did with my friend. That's one of the reasons why I was looking into a Mac. On 3/6/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Commands in VoiceOver are certainly not hard. To me they actually end up > making a lot more sense than Jaws commands, although this might not be the > same for other people. Also, you can control a laptop with the trackpad > which is very similar to using an iPhone with one hand. VoiceOver can also > be controlled with the numpad on keyboards that have one, and with the > arrow > keys alone if you are just navigating websites etc. > In the end, it really doesn't take any extra effort to use it, but there > is > a learning curve. To make it simple, elements on the screen are very well > organized, and you need to interact with certain items to find other items > inside. What this means is that if you know what you are looking for, > finding it is very, very fast. Also VoiceOver allows you to literally type > whatever you are looking for and get to it quickly. This works in any > context, in any window in any applications. I like that part about it. > I don't know, I would say if you are in a situation where you need to be > 100% productive the day after you get your computer, maybe getting a mac > right now is not the best choice because you'll have to learn how to use > it. > Maybe you can get Windows installed on it until you have time to actually > learn the mac. But if you are willing to read the documentation and you > are > willing to discover a very different approach to screen reading software > which actually works well, you'll probably love Apple computers. > On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:30 PM, > wrote: > >> Briana, >> I don't use a Mac, but this is what I heard. >> The built in screen reader is a learning curve; you have more keys to >> press for each command. You almost need extra fingers! >> Also, its been my experience that schools primarily use windows and >> windows applications. >> I don't know whether all handouts such as powerpoint slides will be read >> alright on the Mac. >> If you need a lot of things embossed, you're better off with a PC with >> duxbury; most braille translation like DBT and tiger work with windows. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko >> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 5:41 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs >> >> One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the >> vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; >> but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac >> as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to >> learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come >> preloded into the computer? >> >> >> On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other Windows >>> screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand >>> Mac >>> OS >>> X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application >>> interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application >>> windows are really similar across programs because people usually write >>> their apps with the tools provided by Apple. >>> Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, >>> VoiceOver >>> also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to >>> the >>> screen reader. >>> I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, >>> and >>> VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. >>> >>> IC >>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: >>> >>>> Hey Briana, >>>> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >>>> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right >>>> out >>>> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >>>> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup window >>>> by >>>> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the PC. >>>> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is concerned. >>>> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >>>> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and functional >>>> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word >>>> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't >>>> very >>>> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >>>> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you >>>> can >>>> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >>>> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard drive >>>> is >>>> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you >>>> weren't >>>> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >>>> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >>>> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and >>>> less >>>> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition >>>> to >>>> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >>>> extremely intuitive. >>>> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >>>> >>>> HTH >>>> >>>> Bernadetta >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 20:13:19 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 15:13:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: <67D71BEA6E2A4A2381445B281DD456F6@OwnerPC> References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> <61A59BCE91454730835381C70D578BC6@OwnerPC> <67D71BEA6E2A4A2381445B281DD456F6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: I did. On 3/6/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Tell the counselor what operating system you want; windows 7 is the latest > type of windows. > I think if you are clear, it will be hard for them to get you old equipment > and if they do, then you can complain to the supervisor that that is not > what you requested. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brianna Scerenscko > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 11:39 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs > > Hopefully my VR councilar will get me a laptop; however, I'm worried > that she will get me a really out of date laptop. That's what she did > with my friend. That's one of the reasons why I was looking into a > Mac. > > On 3/6/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> Commands in VoiceOver are certainly not hard. To me they actually end up >> making a lot more sense than Jaws commands, although this might not be the >> same for other people. Also, you can control a laptop with the trackpad >> which is very similar to using an iPhone with one hand. VoiceOver can also >> be controlled with the numpad on keyboards that have one, and with the >> arrow >> keys alone if you are just navigating websites etc. >> In the end, it really doesn't take any extra effort to use it, but there >> is >> a learning curve. To make it simple, elements on the screen are very well >> organized, and you need to interact with certain items to find other items >> inside. What this means is that if you know what you are looking for, >> finding it is very, very fast. Also VoiceOver allows you to literally type >> whatever you are looking for and get to it quickly. This works in any >> context, in any window in any applications. I like that part about it. >> I don't know, I would say if you are in a situation where you need to be >> 100% productive the day after you get your computer, maybe getting a mac >> right now is not the best choice because you'll have to learn how to use >> it. >> Maybe you can get Windows installed on it until you have time to actually >> learn the mac. But if you are willing to read the documentation and you >> are >> willing to discover a very different approach to screen reading software >> which actually works well, you'll probably love Apple computers. >> On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:30 PM, >> wrote: >> >>> Briana, >>> I don't use a Mac, but this is what I heard. >>> The built in screen reader is a learning curve; you have more keys to >>> press for each command. You almost need extra fingers! >>> Also, its been my experience that schools primarily use windows and >>> windows applications. >>> I don't know whether all handouts such as powerpoint slides will be read >>> alright on the Mac. >>> If you need a lot of things embossed, you're better off with a PC with >>> duxbury; most braille translation like DBT and tiger work with windows. >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko >>> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 5:41 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs >>> >>> One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the >>> vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; >>> but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac >>> as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to >>> learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come >>> preloded into the computer? >>> >>> >>> On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>> I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other Windows >>>> screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand >>>> Mac >>>> OS >>>> X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application >>>> interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application >>>> windows are really similar across programs because people usually write >>>> their apps with the tools provided by Apple. >>>> Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, >>>> VoiceOver >>>> also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to >>>> the >>>> screen reader. >>>> I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, >>>> and >>>> VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. >>>> >>>> IC >>>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hey Briana, >>>>> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >>>>> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right >>>>> out >>>>> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >>>>> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup window >>>>> by >>>>> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the PC. >>>>> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is concerned. >>>>> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >>>>> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and functional >>>>> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word >>>>> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't >>>>> very >>>>> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >>>>> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you >>>>> can >>>>> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >>>>> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard drive >>>>> is >>>>> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you >>>>> weren't >>>>> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >>>>> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >>>>> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and >>>>> less >>>>> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition >>>>> to >>>>> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >>>>> extremely intuitive. >>>>> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >>>>> >>>>> HTH >>>>> >>>>> Bernadetta >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 20:33:35 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 13:33:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] powerpoint commands In-Reply-To: References: <292714.14087.qm@web162014.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi all, When you first open a presentation you are on the title slide. Simply press tab to read the content of the title slide, then keep tabbing until you get back to the beginning of the title slide. To move to the next slide, press page-down, then tab to have JAWS read the body of the next slide, etc. To edit the body of a slide simply tab to it and press enter. The slide show that Mary mentioned also works, but sometimes I find JAWS gets tripped up in the slide show, so I prefer the method described above. Arielle On 3/3/11, Jewel S. wrote: > CTRL+Shift+tab? Thanks for that one! I always like to just convert to > outline form, but do so by getting the powerpoints by e-mail and > viewing it as HTML. This'll make it even easier for my teachers, since > they could jst give me all of them at once! My teachers are pretty > good about not using graphics that are necessary for the understanding > (or like my psychology teacher does, put a caption under the picture > that comes out in the HTML format, where there's no image for it to go > with...an example would be "Graph 2.3," where 2.3 stands fort eh graph > in the textbook that she uses [and she only uses graphs and charts > fromt he textbook]). > > Thanks for that tip, > > On 3/2/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Another option would be to convert the powerpoint to outline form, >> then paste the outline into a word document. To convert to outline >> form, hit Control+Shift+Tab after you have selected all. Then you >> should be in outline view, from which point you can copy and paste to >> microsoft word. >> Hope This Helps: >> Patrick >> >> On 3/2/11, Mary Fernandez wrote: >>> Hi! >>> So I'm using powerpoint 2007, but I think the basic menus are very >>> similar. What I do is go the the slide show menu, and hit start show. >>> That way, it goes directly to hte main body of the slide. If you hit >>> your right application key, you can go the next slide, previous, or >>> choose a slide number even. Also, if you just his insert_f1 jaws >>> provides a pretty good built in guide for powerpoint. Hope this helps. >>> Mary F >>> >>> On 3/2/11, Anmol Bhatia wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello nabs, >>>> I am trying to read some powerpoint slides, but I am having >>>> a hard time getting jaws to read me the content on the >>>> slides. Does anyone have a lisgt of key strokes for >>>> powerpoint in Microsoft 2003 and would not mind emailing >>>> those to me? If you could email me this I would appreciate >>>> it. >>>> thanks >>>> Anmol >>>> >>>> I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me >>>> sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but >>>> it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. >>>> Hellen Keller >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mary Fernandez >>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students >>> Emory University 2012 >>> P.O. Box 123056 >>> Atlanta Ga. >>> 30322 >>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>> >>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much >>> rather you weren't doing it." >>> Terry Pratchett >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > ~Jewel > Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! > Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From nabs.president at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 20:44:21 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 13:44:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Reliable readers In-Reply-To: References: <6FB6548700BE4827878E3BB0320A0A33@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Ashley, I think it's reasonable to say, during the interview, that in order to take the job a prospective reader needs to agree to follow a few simple rules. Perhaps one rule could be that if they need to cancel a scheduled appointment, they need to tell you a certain number of days in advance so you can make other arrangements. Also it makes sense to ask them to tell you their availability right away, with the understanding that you can ask them to work during any of their available times, and if their available times change they are responsible for telling you as soon as they find that out. Clear communication is the most important aspect of reliability, in my opinion. I think it's fair to say up front that after a certain number of violations of these rules (i.e. not giving advance notice about schedule changes, being late or no-showing, etc.) they will be fired. It's normal for something last-minute to come up every once in a while, but if it's a repeat occurrence, this causes serious problems for you. It's much easier to say this early on than to have to tell them later that they're fired when they don't have any advance warning. I don't have much experience supervising readers but I do supervise research assistants and we go over these kinds of rules with them as soon as they sign up, and I haven't had any problems with RA reliability. Arielle On 3/4/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Ashley, Rightsville Prison, (Rightsville, Arkansas,) has a Braille > program. The innmates are taught how to transcribe Braille, and most > Braille books that are given to students were produced by them. I > wonder if Rightsville does college-levil textbooks. You might find > out. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/4/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi, >> I did have a standard list of questions and felt I was prepared. I did >> not >> have training in hiring / managing readers so I've learned throughout my >> college years. >> >> I did have a sample; yet I should have had a few samples. What I found >> was >> reader A might be good at reading one book and not another, but Reader B >> might be able to read that book. >> Some matterial is more technical than others. >> Yes schedules change among readers; yet this person knew about his wife's >> classes and therefore his need to watch kids. >> What I am saying is I am up front about my schedule and I'd like readers >> or >> prospective readers to do the same. >> >> Maybe next semester will work better. >> /ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Bridgit Pollpeter >> Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 3:47 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Reliable readers >> >> Ashley, >> >> Hiring a reader should be approached like any professional job. You, >> the interviewer, should be just as prepared as those you interview. Be >> specific about what you need, and yes, I would have samples for them to >> read-- afterall, they are applying for a job that requires them to read. >> >> Also, keep in mind that peoples schedules can change-- especially if >> they have a family. Your reader may not have anticipated any >> complications with his family. Children always throw a curveball into >> the game! *smile* >> >> If indeed your current reader ends up not working out, you may need to >> let them go to find a reader who fits your schedule-- they are under >> your employ. However, don't take things out on them since you never >> know what is happening in a person's life. >> >> Some universities do offer readers through their DSO, and most schools >> have tutors-- you may want to look into this-- but most schools do not >> necessarily hire readers who are great. They use those who apply and >> are available. Just because a DSO has readers does not mean they will >> be any better than ones you hire on your own terms, though their >> schedule will probably work for you. >> >> Bridgit >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From kim at senderogroup.com Sun Mar 6 22:51:15 2011 From: kim at senderogroup.com (Kim Casey) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 16:51:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Sendero March Highlights Message-ID: Check out the following conferences and product deals: 1. The cost per GPS upgrade for BrailleNote and Sense Nav GPS products is going down. Instead of $125 per year, the new upgrade pricing is under $100 per year for all countries other than Australia and New Zealand. If you purchase before the release of the 2011 version in the next couple months, you save an additional $50 off the following prices: 3 upgrades for all countries other than AU and NZ, $298 3 upgrades for New Zealand, $348 3 upgrades for Australia, $418 These upgrades include new maps and new software, you must have version 2010 to purchase these upgrades. Order your GPS upgrades now by calling Sendero toll free at 1-888-757-6810. Pricing for Mobile Geo upgrades has not been established but you can expect a 3-upgrade license as well. 2. Come see Sendero at a conference in March: SOMA in Greenville SC, March 7, CTEBVI in Oakland, CA March 11-12 and CSUN in San Diego, CA, March 15-19. At CSUN we have two session presentations, one on the iPhone and another GPS overview, visit http://www.csunconference.org to reserve your seat now. We will also be hosting various events in the Sendero suite and around the hotel, visit http://senderogroup.com/news/csunform.asp to sign up. 3. Get a FREE extended warranty with the purchase of a Stream Until March 31, 2011 obtain a FREE one-year extended warranty when you buy a Victor Reader Stream, a value of $45! This is in addition to the standard 1 year warranty. Your Stream will now be under warranty for 2 years! Contact Sendero Group: http://www.senderogroup.com Toll free phone (US and Canada): 1-888-757-6810 Direct phone: +1 530 757-6800 From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 02:34:32 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 19:34:32 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> <72FDF2A556E744E5B6DE5A9BEFD1BCFE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, I go to BYU. A private religious school. The academics are great, and it competes well with state-run universities. So I don't think that goes against church and state at all, rehab counselors should pay, within reason, for the best in-state school for the programs you're planning on, provided job goals are realistic. I'm in political science and BYU fits the bill, never mind that a person should have the right to attend a religious school should they choose to. Best, Kirt P.S. I've had trouble with my counselor in the past, but everything's good now. I'd rather not talk about it here, message me off-list if you'd like. On 3/6/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Ashley, I'm attending the Phillips Community College, getting my > basics out of the way. I'd like to go to IBC, (Indiana Bible College,) > to pursue my ministry goals. Laura said that Rehab paid for her > friend's education at a Bible college, so why wouldn't they do that in > Arkansas? Could it be because ORU is in Oklahoma? Still, there are no > Bible colleges worth anything in arkansas. I've switched > denominations, so ORU wouldn't be for me now. I was AOG, (Assembly of > God,) then. I'm UPCI, (United Pentecostal Church International,) now. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/6/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Joshua, >> So since you didn't go to ORU where did you go and what was your major? >> Rj is right; we shouldn't let the state dictate our goals or where we can >> or >> can't go to school. >> I can understand why they didn't pay for your schooling; but they >> shouldn't >> discourage that goal; many blind people are pastors and other ministerial >> things. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 12:12 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations >> >> Ashley, If you attended the Karaoke show, last year, you would have >> heard it. Sarah Alawami could probably help you with the lyrics, >> because she was there. I really had a great time in Dallas, and I hope >> to go to Orlando this year. Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Hi, >>> Oh what is the blind inc song? I've heard other rehab songs. >>> I think they didn't pay for the university of your choice was because it >>> was >>> a private religious school; sponsoring religious institutions crosses the >>> lines of church and state. >>> Still there are other ways of paying for school like loans and >>> scholarships >>> if you really want to go to such a school. >>> >>> Glad you have a better counselor now. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >>> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 10:28 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations >>> >>> The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. >>> After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' >>> expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She >>> wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the >>> state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my >>> major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, >>> being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. >>> All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone >>> that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your goals? >>>> I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for >>>> several >>>> reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the >>>> future >>>> I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on >>>> teaching >>>> blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in >>>> communications, development, something human services, or clerical >>>> support. >>>> I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern >>>> program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I >>>> won’t >>>> get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the >>>> community >>>> there. >>>> >>>> My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is >>>> encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public >>>> sector! >>>> Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, >>>> rather >>>> than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit >>>> yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your commute >>>> is >>>> reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? >>>> >>>> I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for clients. >>>> Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I >>>> know >>>> we >>>> should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, not >>>> blindness. >>>> >>>> Okay just had to vent some. >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 04:11:23 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 23:11:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC><72FDF2A556E744E5B6DE5A9BEFD1BCFE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Kirt, I'm no expert but I believe state policies vary. They place limits on out of state school funding and private/sectarian schools. In my state they do not approve sectarian schools; additionally if you go out of state they will pay up to the highest in state tuition of the most expensive state supported school. Also, if you attend a private school, they only pay for so much. Also, they consider your family's financial status if you live with them as most students do; its considered as long as your family claims you as a dependent and that can be done til age 21 I think. Yes you have the right to attend any school you want; I attended a private school too. But should VR have to sponsor you anywhere? You have the right to do many things in this country, but the government doesn't always pay for those "rights". Well VR puts limits on your choice in my state and I'm sure they do in yours too. I agree BYU is a great school; I've heard good things about it. I won't argue for or against VR paying for religious schools. I have mixed feelings. Policies are what they are. To really find out your policy you have to ask your counselor for the policy or search for it. Here is an exerpt from chapter 9 A of the rehab mannual on College training. Private and out-of-state colleges and universities Private and out-of-state colleges and universities can be utilized when the same course is available in a Virginia state-supported college; however, the college/university must appear on the "approved college list" located in the DRS Training and Facilities Manual. Vocational rehabilitation services will only sponsor the financially eligible student for up to the amount of tuition, fees, and maintenance charged by the most expensive Virginia state-supported college or university. The student will be responsible for all remaining charges. The highest "state cost" allowable is published annually, and is located in the DRS Training and Facilities Manual, Volume III. When college training is provided by an out-of-state college or university, the reasons for this must be documented by the counselor on the IPE. When specific degree is not available at a Virginia state-supported college or university, the out-of-state tuition and fees can be paid in full. Examples of degrees that are not offered in Virginia are--orientation and mobility and rehabilitation teaching. Sectarian colleges and universities A college or university that is determined to be "sectarian" by the Commonwealth of Virginia shall not be routinely used by DBVI students. If a student chooses to attend a "sectarian" college or university, the VR program cannot pay tuition or other fees to that academic institution. However, the VR program may purchase equipment, provide reader service, and provide any other services for the student that do not result in direct payment to the "sectarian" college or university by the agency. Any college or university that is determined "sectarian" will not appear on the "approved college list" located in the DRS Training and Facilities Manual, Vol. III. So there you have it. They do not pay tuition and fees to sectarian schools and students are responsible for all other charges for out of state schools, charges vr doesn't cover. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 9:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations Ashley, I go to BYU. A private religious school. The academics are great, and it competes well with state-run universities. So I don't think that goes against church and state at all, rehab counselors should pay, within reason, for the best in-state school for the programs you're planning on, provided job goals are realistic. I'm in political science and BYU fits the bill, never mind that a person should have the right to attend a religious school should they choose to. Best, Kirt P.S. I've had trouble with my counselor in the past, but everything's good now. I'd rather not talk about it here, message me off-list if you'd like. On 3/6/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Ashley, I'm attending the Phillips Community College, getting my > basics out of the way. I'd like to go to IBC, (Indiana Bible College,) > to pursue my ministry goals. Laura said that Rehab paid for her > friend's education at a Bible college, so why wouldn't they do that in > Arkansas? Could it be because ORU is in Oklahoma? Still, there are no > Bible colleges worth anything in arkansas. I've switched > denominations, so ORU wouldn't be for me now. I was AOG, (Assembly of > God,) then. I'm UPCI, (United Pentecostal Church International,) now. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/6/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Joshua, >> So since you didn't go to ORU where did you go and what was your major? >> Rj is right; we shouldn't let the state dictate our goals or where we can >> or >> can't go to school. >> I can understand why they didn't pay for your schooling; but they >> shouldn't >> discourage that goal; many blind people are pastors and other ministerial >> things. >> >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Joshua Lester >> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 12:12 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations >> >> Ashley, If you attended the Karaoke show, last year, you would have >> heard it. Sarah Alawami could probably help you with the lyrics, >> because she was there. I really had a great time in Dallas, and I hope >> to go to Orlando this year. Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Hi, >>> Oh what is the blind inc song? I've heard other rehab songs. >>> I think they didn't pay for the university of your choice was because it >>> was >>> a private religious school; sponsoring religious institutions crosses >>> the >>> lines of church and state. >>> Still there are other ways of paying for school like loans and >>> scholarships >>> if you really want to go to such a school. >>> >>> Glad you have a better counselor now. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >>> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 10:28 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations >>> >>> The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. >>> After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' >>> expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She >>> wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the >>> state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my >>> major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, >>> being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. >>> All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone >>> that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your goals? >>>> I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for >>>> several >>>> reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the >>>> future >>>> I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on >>>> teaching >>>> blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in >>>> communications, development, something human services, or clerical >>>> support. >>>> I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern >>>> program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I >>>> won’t >>>> get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the >>>> community >>>> there. >>>> >>>> My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is >>>> encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public >>>> sector! >>>> Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, >>>> rather >>>> than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit >>>> yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your >>>> commute >>>> is >>>> reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? >>>> >>>> I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for >>>> clients. >>>> Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I >>>> know >>>> we >>>> should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, >>>> not >>>> blindness. >>>> >>>> Okay just had to vent some. >>>> Ashley >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 04:31:12 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 21:31:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC> <72FDF2A556E744E5B6DE5A9BEFD1BCFE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, First, what do they mean by "sectarian?" Is that a theological school that prepares one to be a minister for a certain sect? Or a private school owned by a certain religion. Secondly...that's just Virginia. I guess since my BUYU tuition is no more (actually a little less) than I would've had to get payed for a state school, that doesn't apply as much anyhow. But I know plenty of blind people who rehab, at least here in Utah, has helped go through private schools. Best, Kirt On 3/6/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Kirt, > > I'm no expert but I believe state policies vary. > They place limits on out of state school funding and private/sectarian > schools. > In my state they do not approve sectarian schools; additionally if you go > out of state they will pay up to the highest in state tuition of the most > expensive state supported school. Also, if you attend a private school, > they only pay for so much. Also, they consider your family's financial > status if you live with them as most students do; its considered as long as > your family claims you as a dependent and that can be done til age 21 I > think. > > Yes you have the right to attend any school you want; I attended a private > school too. But should VR have to sponsor you anywhere? > You have the right to do many things in this country, but the government > doesn't always pay for those "rights". > Well VR puts limits on your choice in my state and I'm sure they do in yours > too. > I agree BYU is a great school; I've heard good things about it. > I won't argue for or against VR paying for religious schools. I have mixed > feelings. > Policies are what they are. > > To really find out your policy you have to ask your counselor for the policy > or search for it. Here is an exerpt > from chapter 9 A of the rehab mannual on College training. > > Private and out-of-state colleges and universities > Private and out-of-state colleges and universities can be utilized when the > same course is available in a Virginia state-supported college; however, the > college/university must appear on the "approved college list" located in the > DRS Training and Facilities Manual. Vocational rehabilitation services will > only sponsor the financially eligible student for up to the amount of > tuition, fees, and maintenance charged by the most expensive Virginia > state-supported college or university. The student will be responsible for > all remaining charges. The highest "state cost" allowable is published > annually, and is located in the DRS Training and Facilities Manual, Volume > III. > When college training is provided by an out-of-state college or university, > the reasons for this must be documented by the counselor on the IPE. When > specific degree is not available at a Virginia state-supported college or > university, the out-of-state tuition and fees can be paid in full. Examples > of degrees that are not offered in Virginia are--orientation and mobility > and rehabilitation teaching. > Sectarian colleges and universities > A college or university that is determined to be "sectarian" by the > Commonwealth of Virginia shall not be routinely used by DBVI students. If a > student chooses to attend a "sectarian" college or university, the VR > program cannot pay tuition or other fees to that academic institution. > However, the VR program may purchase equipment, provide reader service, and > provide any other services for the student that do not result in direct > payment to the "sectarian" college or university by the agency. > Any college or university that is determined "sectarian" will not appear on > the "approved college list" located in the DRS Training and Facilities > Manual, Vol. III. > > So there you have it. They do not pay tuition and fees to sectarian schools > and students are responsible for all other charges for out of state schools, > charges vr doesn't cover. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 9:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations > > Ashley, > I go to > BYU. A private religious school. The academics are great, and it > competes well with state-run universities. So I don't think that goes > against church and state at all, rehab counselors should pay, within > reason, for the best in-state school for the programs you're planning > on, provided job goals are realistic. I'm in political science and > BYU fits the bill, never mind that a person should have the right to > attend a religious school should they choose to. > Best, > Kirt > P.S. I've had trouble with my counselor in the past, but everything's > good now. I'd rather not talk about it here, message me off-list if > you'd like. > > On 3/6/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Ashley, I'm attending the Phillips Community College, getting my >> basics out of the way. I'd like to go to IBC, (Indiana Bible College,) >> to pursue my ministry goals. Laura said that Rehab paid for her >> friend's education at a Bible college, so why wouldn't they do that in >> Arkansas? Could it be because ORU is in Oklahoma? Still, there are no >> Bible colleges worth anything in arkansas. I've switched >> denominations, so ORU wouldn't be for me now. I was AOG, (Assembly of >> God,) then. I'm UPCI, (United Pentecostal Church International,) now. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 3/6/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Joshua, >>> So since you didn't go to ORU where did you go and what was your major? >>> Rj is right; we shouldn't let the state dictate our goals or where we can >>> or >>> can't go to school. >>> I can understand why they didn't pay for your schooling; but they >>> shouldn't >>> discourage that goal; many blind people are pastors and other ministerial >>> things. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >>> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 12:12 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations >>> >>> Ashley, If you attended the Karaoke show, last year, you would have >>> heard it. Sarah Alawami could probably help you with the lyrics, >>> because she was there. I really had a great time in Dallas, and I hope >>> to go to Orlando this year. Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> Oh what is the blind inc song? I've heard other rehab songs. >>>> I think they didn't pay for the university of your choice was because it >>>> was >>>> a private religious school; sponsoring religious institutions crosses >>>> the >>>> lines of church and state. >>>> Still there are other ways of paying for school like loans and >>>> scholarships >>>> if you really want to go to such a school. >>>> >>>> Glad you have a better counselor now. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 10:28 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations >>>> >>>> The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. >>>> After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' >>>> expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She >>>> wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the >>>> state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my >>>> major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, >>>> being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. >>>> All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone >>>> that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your goals? >>>>> I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for >>>>> several >>>>> reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the >>>>> future >>>>> I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on >>>>> teaching >>>>> blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in >>>>> communications, development, something human services, or clerical >>>>> support. >>>>> I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern >>>>> program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I >>>>> won’t >>>>> get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the >>>>> community >>>>> there. >>>>> >>>>> My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is >>>>> encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public >>>>> sector! >>>>> Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, >>>>> rather >>>>> than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit >>>>> yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your >>>>> commute >>>>> is >>>>> reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? >>>>> >>>>> I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for >>>>> clients. >>>>> Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I >>>>> know >>>>> we >>>>> should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, >>>>> not >>>>> blindness. >>>>> >>>>> Okay just had to vent some. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Mar 7 04:46:21 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 23:46:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: References: <8094D11F21C94EC78EFED4693436419A@OwnerPC><72FDF2A556E744E5B6DE5A9BEFD1BCFE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <0FC5797485EA4A0AA3E17DE0CF3B54D2@OwnerPC> I think its all private schools owned by a religion. There is another girl going to the same private school; she may be willing to tell me if VR is helping out. I'm real surprised BYU is about the same expense as other state schools. Generally private schools are much more expensive than state schools. -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 11:31 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations Ashley, First, what do they mean by "sectarian?" Is that a theological school that prepares one to be a minister for a certain sect? Or a private school owned by a certain religion. Secondly...that's just Virginia. I guess since my BUYU tuition is no more (actually a little less) than I would've had to get payed for a state school, that doesn't apply as much anyhow. But I know plenty of blind people who rehab, at least here in Utah, has helped go through private schools. Best, Kirt On 3/6/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Kirt, > > I'm no expert but I believe state policies vary. > They place limits on out of state school funding and private/sectarian > schools. > In my state they do not approve sectarian schools; additionally if you go > out of state they will pay up to the highest in state tuition of the most > expensive state supported school. Also, if you attend a private school, > they only pay for so much. Also, they consider your family's financial > status if you live with them as most students do; its considered as long > as > your family claims you as a dependent and that can be done til age 21 I > think. > > Yes you have the right to attend any school you want; I attended a private > school too. But should VR have to sponsor you anywhere? > You have the right to do many things in this country, but the government > doesn't always pay for those "rights". > Well VR puts limits on your choice in my state and I'm sure they do in > yours > too. > I agree BYU is a great school; I've heard good things about it. > I won't argue for or against VR paying for religious schools. I have > mixed > feelings. > Policies are what they are. > > To really find out your policy you have to ask your counselor for the > policy > or search for it. Here is an exerpt > from chapter 9 A of the rehab mannual on College training. > > Private and out-of-state colleges and universities > Private and out-of-state colleges and universities can be utilized when > the > same course is available in a Virginia state-supported college; however, > the > college/university must appear on the "approved college list" located in > the > DRS Training and Facilities Manual. Vocational rehabilitation services > will > only sponsor the financially eligible student for up to the amount of > tuition, fees, and maintenance charged by the most expensive Virginia > state-supported college or university. The student will be responsible for > all remaining charges. The highest "state cost" allowable is published > annually, and is located in the DRS Training and Facilities Manual, Volume > III. > When college training is provided by an out-of-state college or > university, > the reasons for this must be documented by the counselor on the IPE. When > specific degree is not available at a Virginia state-supported college or > university, the out-of-state tuition and fees can be paid in full. > Examples > of degrees that are not offered in Virginia are--orientation and mobility > and rehabilitation teaching. > Sectarian colleges and universities > A college or university that is determined to be "sectarian" by the > Commonwealth of Virginia shall not be routinely used by DBVI students. If > a > student chooses to attend a "sectarian" college or university, the VR > program cannot pay tuition or other fees to that academic institution. > However, the VR program may purchase equipment, provide reader service, > and > provide any other services for the student that do not result in direct > payment to the "sectarian" college or university by the agency. > Any college or university that is determined "sectarian" will not appear > on > the "approved college list" located in the DRS Training and Facilities > Manual, Vol. III. > > So there you have it. They do not pay tuition and fees to sectarian > schools > and students are responsible for all other charges for out of state > schools, > charges vr doesn't cover. > > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 9:34 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations > > Ashley, > I go to > BYU. A private religious school. The academics are great, and it > competes well with state-run universities. So I don't think that goes > against church and state at all, rehab counselors should pay, within > reason, for the best in-state school for the programs you're planning > on, provided job goals are realistic. I'm in political science and > BYU fits the bill, never mind that a person should have the right to > attend a religious school should they choose to. > Best, > Kirt > P.S. I've had trouble with my counselor in the past, but everything's > good now. I'd rather not talk about it here, message me off-list if > you'd like. > > On 3/6/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Ashley, I'm attending the Phillips Community College, getting my >> basics out of the way. I'd like to go to IBC, (Indiana Bible College,) >> to pursue my ministry goals. Laura said that Rehab paid for her >> friend's education at a Bible college, so why wouldn't they do that in >> Arkansas? Could it be because ORU is in Oklahoma? Still, there are no >> Bible colleges worth anything in arkansas. I've switched >> denominations, so ORU wouldn't be for me now. I was AOG, (Assembly of >> God,) then. I'm UPCI, (United Pentecostal Church International,) now. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 3/6/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Joshua, >>> So since you didn't go to ORU where did you go and what was your major? >>> Rj is right; we shouldn't let the state dictate our goals or where we >>> can >>> or >>> can't go to school. >>> I can understand why they didn't pay for your schooling; but they >>> shouldn't >>> discourage that goal; many blind people are pastors and other >>> ministerial >>> things. >>> >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Joshua Lester >>> Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2011 12:12 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations >>> >>> Ashley, If you attended the Karaoke show, last year, you would have >>> heard it. Sarah Alawami could probably help you with the lyrics, >>> because she was there. I really had a great time in Dallas, and I hope >>> to go to Orlando this year. Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> Oh what is the blind inc song? I've heard other rehab songs. >>>> I think they didn't pay for the university of your choice was because >>>> it >>>> was >>>> a private religious school; sponsoring religious institutions crosses >>>> the >>>> lines of church and state. >>>> Still there are other ways of paying for school like loans and >>>> scholarships >>>> if you really want to go to such a school. >>>> >>>> Glad you have a better counselor now. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Joshua Lester >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 10:28 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations >>>> >>>> The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. >>>> After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' >>>> expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She >>>> wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the >>>> state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my >>>> major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, >>>> being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. >>>> All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone >>>> that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your >>>>> goals? >>>>> I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for >>>>> several >>>>> reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the >>>>> future >>>>> I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on >>>>> teaching >>>>> blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in >>>>> communications, development, something human services, or clerical >>>>> support. >>>>> I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern >>>>> program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I >>>>> won’t >>>>> get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the >>>>> community >>>>> there. >>>>> >>>>> My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is >>>>> encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public >>>>> sector! >>>>> Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, >>>>> rather >>>>> than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit >>>>> yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your >>>>> commute >>>>> is >>>>> reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? >>>>> >>>>> I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for >>>>> clients. >>>>> Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I >>>>> know >>>>> we >>>>> should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, >>>>> not >>>>> blindness. >>>>> >>>>> Okay just had to vent some. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From ignasicambra at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 05:28:39 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 00:28:39 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs In-Reply-To: References: <20110305213412.10188.39115@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <8E82EA6D-C3AD-42D8-AA25-515C115E274E@gmail.com> <61A59BCE91454730835381C70D578BC6@OwnerPC> <518A5958-7651-4A85-98C5-53A481B0E46B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <115784B9-E7AE-493E-8DA9-43F8272B9AD7@gmail.com> If you are going to use the computer in class for notetaking etc and you aren't planning on doing anything crazy with it, the basic 11 inch macbook air would work well for you. My girlfriend just got one and it's such a fast little machine thanks to SSD storage...! For the $999 that it cost, it's definitely a good machine in my opinion. On Mar 6, 2011, at 2:23 PM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > I'm worried about what kind of a laptop my VR councelar will get me; > with a Mac, I really only have to specify that I want I Works > installed on it. > > On 3/6/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> A basic MacBook pro will cost you less than a Jaws license... >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 6, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >> >>> Hopefully my VR councilar will get me a laptop; however, I'm worried >>> that she will get me a really out of date laptop. That's what she did >>> with my friend. That's one of the reasons why I was looking into a >>> Mac. >>> >>> On 3/6/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>> Commands in VoiceOver are certainly not hard. To me they actually end up >>>> making a lot more sense than Jaws commands, although this might not be >>>> the >>>> same for other people. Also, you can control a laptop with the trackpad >>>> which is very similar to using an iPhone with one hand. VoiceOver can >>>> also >>>> be controlled with the numpad on keyboards that have one, and with the >>>> arrow >>>> keys alone if you are just navigating websites etc. >>>> In the end, it really doesn't take any extra effort to use it, but there >>>> is >>>> a learning curve. To make it simple, elements on the screen are very well >>>> organized, and you need to interact with certain items to find other >>>> items >>>> inside. What this means is that if you know what you are looking for, >>>> finding it is very, very fast. Also VoiceOver allows you to literally >>>> type >>>> whatever you are looking for and get to it quickly. This works in any >>>> context, in any window in any applications. I like that part about it. >>>> I don't know, I would say if you are in a situation where you need to be >>>> 100% productive the day after you get your computer, maybe getting a mac >>>> right now is not the best choice because you'll have to learn how to use >>>> it. >>>> Maybe you can get Windows installed on it until you have time to actually >>>> learn the mac. But if you are willing to read the documentation and you >>>> are >>>> willing to discover a very different approach to screen reading software >>>> which actually works well, you'll probably love Apple computers. >>>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 7:30 PM, >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Briana, >>>>> I don't use a Mac, but this is what I heard. >>>>> The built in screen reader is a learning curve; you have more keys to >>>>> press for each command. You almost need extra fingers! >>>>> Also, its been my experience that schools primarily use windows and >>>>> windows applications. >>>>> I don't know whether all handouts such as powerpoint slides will be read >>>>> alright on the Mac. >>>>> If you need a lot of things embossed, you're better off with a PC with >>>>> duxbury; most braille translation like DBT and tiger work with windows. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko >>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 5:41 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Macs Verses PCs >>>>> >>>>> One of my vision teachers suggested I get a Mac, but another of the >>>>> vision teachers in our school system said that Macs are hard to use; >>>>> but I guess I could learn it. Is it the same keyboard set up on a Mac >>>>> as on a PC? How does Mac work with braille embossers? Was it hard to >>>>> learn the new opperating system? Do most of the programs you need come >>>>> preloded into the computer? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3/5/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>> I like macs. What's clear is that if you're used to JFW or other >>>>>> Windows >>>>>> screen readers you will have to take the time to learn and understand >>>>>> Mac >>>>>> OS >>>>>> X and VoiceOver. For me, the great thing about OS X is that application >>>>>> interfaces are generally very consistent. In other words, application >>>>>> windows are really similar across programs because people usually write >>>>>> their apps with the tools provided by Apple. >>>>>> Also, remember that every time the operating system is updated, >>>>>> VoiceOver >>>>>> also gets an update. Even minor system updates can contain updates to >>>>>> the >>>>>> screen reader. >>>>>> I've been playing around with OS 10.7 which should be out this summer, >>>>>> and >>>>>> VoiceOver gets lots of improvements. >>>>>> >>>>>> IC >>>>>> On Mar 5, 2011, at 4:34 PM, Bernadetta Pracon wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hey Briana, >>>>>>> Personally, I think a Mac is a great machine to have. They're fully >>>>>>> accessible with voiceover being a fully functional screen reader right >>>>>>> out >>>>>>> of the box. You are able to set it up by yourself without any sighted >>>>>>> assistance, because the screen reader is on at the initial setup >>>>>>> window >>>>>>> by >>>>>>> default. So that's just one of many advantages the mac has over the >>>>>>> PC. >>>>>>> Plus, Macs are extremely durable machines, where hardware is >>>>>>> concerned. >>>>>>> Because most of the software you would use on your Mac is produced by >>>>>>> Apple, you would have the garentee that it is compatible and >>>>>>> functional >>>>>>> with voiceover, with few exceptions. You can use Open Office as a word >>>>>>> processor, in place of Microsoft word, since word for apple isn't >>>>>>> very >>>>>>> accessible with voiceover as far as I know. >>>>>>> Also, remember that you can always install windows on a mac, and you >>>>>>> can >>>>>>> do that without sighted assistance for the most part as well. This is >>>>>>> great, because you basically have two computers in one. Your hard >>>>>>> drive >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> partitioned in two when you install windows onto a mac. So if you >>>>>>> weren't >>>>>>> sure how to do something using the apple operating system, you could >>>>>>> always complete the task on your windows side of the mac. >>>>>>> Also, I've found that Apple's operating systems are more stable and >>>>>>> less >>>>>>> clunky than windows. There's a bit of a learning curve when transition >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> apple if you've been a PC user, but once you get the hang of it, it's >>>>>>> extremely intuitive. >>>>>>> I think getting amac is definitely a safe bet. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> HTH >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bernadetta >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From aleremita at executiveproductsinc.com Mon Mar 7 05:53:32 2011 From: aleremita at executiveproductsinc.com (Al Eremita) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2011 23:53:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Executive Products Inc - Notification Message-ID: Executive Products has been in business for 7 years now. We have always had one goal in mind and that was to protect your valuable devices, and to make your devices mobile. Over the years we have noticed that many companies in the sight impaired community make very good products but provide you with very little protection to your devices or make it mobile to use. We have also evolved to adapt to our customers needs and always welcome your suggestions (such as using magnets instead of Velcro when possible). We would like to thank each and everyone one of you that have purchased our products (and some of you have purchased more than one), and we are looking to create more cases as new products come into the market. If at any time you would like to purchase any one of our cases you can always go to our website www.executiveproductinc.com or call us anytime at 818-833-8080. Carol or Al will be able happy to answer any questions you may have or to help you place an order. We take great pride in working very closely with the sight impaired community. We are also very proud that all our products are made in the USA! Book Port Book Port + Braille+ Braille Connect 32/40 Braille Icon Braille Sense Plus 32 BrailleNote Apex GW BookSense GW Voice Sense Iphone 3G/4G N82 Plextalk Trekker Breeze Victor Stream Cane Holders BX 400/420/440 QX 400/420/440 Braille & Speak NLS/BPH cases Gps Cases GPS-EarthMate, Gps-Global Sat, GPS-Holux GpSlim 236 GPS-Holux I-Blue 737, GPS-SysOn Book courier SmartPhones Pouches S/M/L Braille Lite 2000/M20/M40 Braille Note BT/QT Mpower BT/QT Voice Note BT/QT Voice Note MPower BT/QT 818-833-8080 Protect your unit .. Buy an EPI case. Executive Products Inc. tback_yellow-1 12900 Bradley Ave. Sylmar Ca. 91342. Fax: 818-833-5890 Office: 818-833-8080 Mobile: 818-723-8444 www.ExecutiveProductsinc.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 1047b9.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 3615 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 00:13:58 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 18:13:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Trouble with Microsoft Word 2007 Message-ID: Hi, it's Joshua Lester. Is anyone else having trouble with the latest installment of Microsoft Word? I can't save my files, so I can't send them as attachments,in E-mails either. I have a two page essay in Sociology, due thursday, and I need help ASAP! Thanks, Joshua From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 00:19:14 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:19:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Trouble with Microsoft Word 2007 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88C36060CA2C4F70A007609E73099F72@OwnerPC> So why can't you save them by pressing F 12? Is there an error message? If you cannot attach, you could copy the text into an email or maybe save on a thumb drive and send from another computer, maybe at school -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:13 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Trouble with Microsoft Word 2007 Hi, it's Joshua Lester. Is anyone else having trouble with the latest installment of Microsoft Word? I can't save my files, so I can't send them as attachments,in E-mails either. I have a two page essay in Sociology, due thursday, and I need help ASAP! Thanks, Joshua _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 00:23:33 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 18:23:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Trouble with Microsoft Word 2007 In-Reply-To: <88C36060CA2C4F70A007609E73099F72@OwnerPC> References: <88C36060CA2C4F70A007609E73099F72@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Wow! I'll try the F12 option. I've just hit control S to save as, and I type in the file name. It won't save it, anymore. When I'd E-mail, via my pccua.edu address, i'd type the file name into the attachments field, and it would go to the E-mail. Now, it won't work. Maybe, the F12 option will work. I'll try this again, tomorrow. Blessings, Joshua On 3/7/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > So why can't you save them by pressing F 12? > Is there an error message? If you cannot attach, you could copy the text > into an email or maybe save on a thumb drive and send from another computer, > maybe at school > > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:13 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Trouble with Microsoft Word 2007 > > Hi, it's Joshua Lester. Is anyone else having trouble with the latest > installment of Microsoft Word? I can't save my files, so I can't send > them as attachments,in E-mails either. I have a two page essay in > Sociology, due thursday, and I need help ASAP! Thanks, Joshua > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 00:26:21 2011 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:26:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of this professional, more and more students who are blind often have multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. However, I think most people can agree that our organization is concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental disabilities. This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does this mean for our future? There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future and years to come. Any thoughts are welcome. Brice -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Tue Mar 8 00:38:58 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 19:38:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Brice: I think you are right. There are certainly plenty of people who are just blind still, but I do agree that medical advances have allowed children to live who 15, even 10 or 5 years ago may not have made it. Other disabilities varry, as does the level of each one in each person, but it is certainly more common now. I wonder if that might mean a transformation is coming to the NFB? On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some > interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of > this professional, more and more students who are blind often have > multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have > made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living > longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes > that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students > who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have > any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. > > I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are > many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. > However, I think most people can agree that our organization is > concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental > disabilities. > > This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations > simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament > to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a > unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of > people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does > this mean for our future? > > There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future > of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and > legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual > impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm > curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future > and years to come. > > Any thoughts are welcome. > > Brice > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 00:41:54 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 16:41:54 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Brice, You bring to light a very interesting point. I seem to notice a similar trend. Now, one can argue that people with multiple disabilities are the case outside the blind community, but that wouldn't be the point here. a question that might be worth asking is how will we adjust to this. How do we interact with the deaf-blind members of our organization? for example. do we view other disabilities as we view blindness, or do we view other disabilities like the general public does blindness? just some thought, not so much answers, as I don't think I could begain to attempt to fashonone. Darian On 3/7/11, Brice Smith wrote: > I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some > interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of > this professional, more and more students who are blind often have > multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have > made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living > longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes > that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students > who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have > any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. > > I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are > many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. > However, I think most people can agree that our organization is > concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental > disabilities. > > This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations > simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament > to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a > unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of > people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does > this mean for our future? > > There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future > of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and > legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual > impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm > curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future > and years to come. > > Any thoughts are welcome. > > Brice > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 00:58:19 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:58:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are hearing impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard of hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as say the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or whatever you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the NFB? Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who can't do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that has kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. But frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for their abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge others for the additional disabilities they may have. Just my two cents, Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of this professional, more and more students who are blind often have multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. However, I think most people can agree that our organization is concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental disabilities. This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does this mean for our future? There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future and years to come. Any thoughts are welcome. Brice -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 00:59:06 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 18:59:06 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good points, Brice! Blessings, Joshua On 3/7/11, Brice Smith wrote: > I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some > interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of > this professional, more and more students who are blind often have > multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have > made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living > longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes > that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students > who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have > any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. > > I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are > many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. > However, I think most people can agree that our organization is > concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental > disabilities. > > This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations > simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament > to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a > unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of > people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does > this mean for our future? > > There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future > of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and > legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual > impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm > curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future > and years to come. > > Any thoughts are welcome. > > Brice > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 01:03:25 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:03:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Update on Microsoft Word problem Message-ID: Hi, it's Joshua Lester. I said that i'd do it tomorrow, but I decided to do it again, today. Well, I tried the F12 option, and it halfway worked. I had to save the file under my name, (meaning,) I couldn't change the name of the file. I sent the file as an attachment successfully, though. Thanks Ashley for your help. If anyone else on this list can help me get the files to save, (allowing me to change the name of the files,) I'd appreciate it. Blessings, Joshua From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 01:06:37 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 17:06:37 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) Message-ID: Hi all, Could I get your thoughts on something?...... How unified do you think we are as a large division of students in the NFB? We represent most of, if not all of the states, and have a wide aray of talents, prospectives and ideas. We have leaders, we have student divisions in our states, but do you think we are as united as we can and should be? Are we as united as, say our state affiliates? If you think the answer is "no", what do you think it will take from each of us to make this happen? Darian -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 01:06:58 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:06:58 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> Message-ID: You're correct, Marsha. This is sad. We need to promote every single division equally. We need a deaf-blind seminar, to help them. We need one for the blind rollers, (those who are in wheelchairs,) etc. Blessings, Joshua On 3/7/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: > This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are hearing > impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard of > hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as say > the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any > less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why > are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or whatever > you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the NFB? > Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who can't > do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that has > kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. But > frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for their > abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge others > for the additional disabilities they may have. > > Just my two cents, > Marsha > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Brice Smith > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > > I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some > interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of > this professional, more and more students who are blind often have > multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have > made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living > longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes > that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students > who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have > any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. > > I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are > many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. > However, I think most people can agree that our organization is > concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental > disabilities. > > This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations > simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament > to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a > unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of > people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does > this mean for our future? > > There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future > of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and > legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual > impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm > curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future > and years to come. > > Any thoughts are welcome. > > Brice > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > l.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jorgeapaez at mac.com Tue Mar 8 01:08:44 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 20:08:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> Message-ID: <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> > Marsha: I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. Jorge On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are hearing > impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard of > hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as say > the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any > less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why > are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or whatever > you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the NFB? > Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who can't > do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that has > kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. But > frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for their > abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge others > for the additional disabilities they may have. > > Just my two cents, > Marsha > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Brice Smith > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > > I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some > interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of > this professional, more and more students who are blind often have > multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have > made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living > longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes > that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students > who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have > any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. > > I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are > many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. > However, I think most people can agree that our organization is > concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental > disabilities. > > This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations > simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament > to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a > unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of > people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does > this mean for our future? > > There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future > of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and > legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual > impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm > curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future > and years to come. > > Any thoughts are welcome. > > Brice > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > l.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 01:09:42 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 17:09:42 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Student Union (no, not that building on campus) Message-ID: Hi all, Could I get your thoughts on something?...... How unified do you think we are as a large division of students in the NFB? We represent most of, if not all of the states, and have a wide aray of talents, prospectives and ideas. We have leaders, we have student divisions in our states, but do you think we are as united as we can and should be? Are we as united as, say our state affiliates? If you think the answer is "no", what do you think it will take from each of us to make this happen? Darian -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 01:15:35 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:15:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think we're as united as we can be. Blessings, Joshua On 3/7/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Hi all, > Could I get your thoughts on something?...... > How unified do you think we are as a large division of students in the > NFB? > > We represent most of, if not all of the states, and have a wide > aray of talents, prospectives and ideas. We have leaders, we have > student divisions in our states, but do you think we are as united > as we can and should be? > > Are we as united as, say our state affiliates? > > If you think the answer is "no", what do you think it will take from > each of us to make this happen? > > Darian > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 01:27:25 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 18:27:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> Message-ID: Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of us love complaining about. True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and disabilities, not just blindness. Best, Kirt On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Marsha: > I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. > > Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as > the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. > > Jorge > > > > On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > >> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are hearing >> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >> of >> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >> say >> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >> whatever >> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >> NFB? >> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who can't >> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >> has >> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >> But >> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >> their >> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >> others >> for the additional disabilities they may have. >> >> Just my two cents, >> Marsha >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Brice Smith >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> >> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >> >> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >> disabilities. >> >> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >> this mean for our future? >> >> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >> and years to come. >> >> Any thoughts are welcome. >> >> Brice >> >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 01:38:25 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 18:38:25 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Darian, Here's how I see it. We all share, or hopefully share the conviction that we as blind students know best what we need. We should all have a common purpose; namely, advocating for blind students within the framework of the NFB. We may disagree quite passionately about how best to accomplish that goal, but we should never forget that we're working for the common good of blind students and any official NABS policy ought to reflect the opinion of the majority of us. That being said, united doesn't mean blind obedience to anything or anyone. I'm thrilled we can argue and discuss and debate. So long as we all share the same dream of equality with our sighted friends and peers, I fervently hope the debate continues. The day we stop sharing our opinions is the day we fail. But along with that the need for unity of purpose is glaringly apparent. We can disagree, we should. But we should always remember that, in the end, we're all working for the same dream. Best, Kirt On 3/7/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > I think we're as united as we can be. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/7/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Hi all, >> Could I get your thoughts on something?...... >> How unified do you think we are as a large division of students in the >> NFB? >> >> We represent most of, if not all of the states, and have a wide >> aray of talents, prospectives and ideas. We have leaders, we have >> student divisions in our states, but do you think we are as united >> as we can and should be? >> >> Are we as united as, say our state affiliates? >> >> If you think the answer is "no", what do you think it will take from >> each of us to make this happen? >> >> Darian >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 01:43:44 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 17:43:44 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> Message-ID: kurt, did you just drop a batman reffrence on an NFB list serve? I think I've seen it all, now *smile* I agree with the point, no doubt. What kind of people would we be if we looked upon disabilities that arn't blindness like sighted people do us? well.. I would actually argue, normal. Now I a not saying it's right. but we as human beings act differently around things we don't understand. I would hope that we are as accepting as we would like other's to be, but to b honest, I'm not expectingus as a whole to be. I don't mean to paint darkly, but my observations of pan-ability reactions and pan-ethnic relations through history would point me to this thought. Darian On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, > I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other > disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and > ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially > within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, > we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of > us love complaining about. > True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does > blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. > Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it > impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same > techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as > a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking > about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to > blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone > who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not > who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each > other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and > disabilities, not just blindness. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Marsha: >> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> >> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> >>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>> hearing >>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>> of >>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>> say >>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>> whatever >>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>> NFB? >>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>> can't >>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>> has >>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>> But >>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>> their >>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>> others >>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>> >>> Just my two cents, >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Brice Smith >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>> >>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>> >>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>> disabilities. >>> >>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>> this mean for our future? >>> >>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>> and years to come. >>> >>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From jorgeapaez at mac.com Tue Mar 8 01:45:05 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2011 20:45:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> Message-ID: Well said Kirt. On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:27 PM, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, > I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other > disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and > ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially > within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, > we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of > us love complaining about. > True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does > blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. > Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it > impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same > techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as > a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking > about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to > blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone > who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not > who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each > other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and > disabilities, not just blindness. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Marsha: >> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> >> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> >>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are hearing >>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>> of >>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>> say >>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>> whatever >>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>> NFB? >>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who can't >>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>> has >>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>> But >>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>> their >>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>> others >>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>> >>> Just my two cents, >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Brice Smith >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>> >>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>> >>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>> disabilities. >>> >>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>> this mean for our future? >>> >>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>> and years to come. >>> >>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 01:57:54 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:57:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> Message-ID: Amen, Kirt. Blessings, Joshua On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, > I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other > disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and > ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially > within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, > we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of > us love complaining about. > True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does > blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. > Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it > impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same > techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as > a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking > about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to > blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone > who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not > who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each > other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and > disabilities, not just blindness. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Marsha: >> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> >> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> >>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>> hearing >>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>> of >>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>> say >>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>> whatever >>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>> NFB? >>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>> can't >>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>> has >>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>> But >>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>> their >>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>> others >>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>> >>> Just my two cents, >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Brice Smith >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>> >>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>> >>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>> disabilities. >>> >>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>> this mean for our future? >>> >>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>> and years to come. >>> >>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 02:00:41 2011 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:00:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> Message-ID: Kirt, While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help people with additional disabilities in this framework without compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always happen. Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we do when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in the future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the cutting-edge? As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a question that we need to consider as we move forward. Brice On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, > I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other > disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and > ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially > within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, > we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of > us love complaining about. > True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does > blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. > Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it > impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same > techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as > a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking > about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to > blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone > who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not > who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each > other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and > disabilities, not just blindness. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Marsha: >> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> >> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> >>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>> hearing >>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>> of >>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>> say >>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>> whatever >>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>> NFB? >>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>> can't >>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>> has >>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>> But >>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>> their >>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>> others >>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>> >>> Just my two cents, >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Brice Smith >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>> >>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>> >>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>> disabilities. >>> >>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>> this mean for our future? >>> >>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>> and years to come. >>> >>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 02:00:45 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:00:45 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Another great post, Kirt! Blessings, Joshua On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Darian, > Here's how I see it. We all share, or hopefully share the > conviction that we as blind students know best what we need. We > should all have a common purpose; namely, advocating for blind > students within the framework of the NFB. We may disagree quite > passionately about how best to accomplish that goal, but we should > never forget that we're working for the common good of blind students > and any official NABS policy ought to reflect the opinion of the > majority of us. > That being said, united doesn't mean blind obedience to anything or > anyone. I'm thrilled we can argue and discuss and debate. So long as > we all share the same dream of equality with our sighted friends and > peers, I fervently hope the debate continues. The day we stop sharing > our opinions is the day we fail. But along with that the need for > unity of purpose is glaringly apparent. We can disagree, we should. > But we should always remember that, in the end, we're all working for > the same dream. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/7/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> I think we're as united as we can be. Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 3/7/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> Could I get your thoughts on something?...... >>> How unified do you think we are as a large division of students in the >>> NFB? >>> >>> We represent most of, if not all of the states, and have a wide >>> aray of talents, prospectives and ideas. We have leaders, we have >>> student divisions in our states, but do you think we are as united >>> as we can and should be? >>> >>> Are we as united as, say our state affiliates? >>> >>> If you think the answer is "no", what do you think it will take from >>> each of us to make this happen? >>> >>> Darian >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 02:00:55 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 18:00:55 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Unity Message-ID: On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Darian, > Here's how I see it. We all share, or hopefully share the > conviction that we as blind students know best what we need. We > should all have a common purpose; namely, advocating for blind > students within the framework of the NFB. We may disagree quite > passionately about how best to accomplish that goal, but we should > never forget that we're working for the common good of blind students > and any official NABS policy ought to reflect the opinion of the > majority of us. > That being said, united doesn't mean blind obedience to anything or > anyone. I'm thrilled we can argue and discuss and debate. So long as > we all share the same dream of equality with our sighted friends and > peers, I fervently hope the debate continues. The day we stop sharing > our opinions is the day we fail. But along with that the need for > unity of purpose is glaringly apparent. We can disagree, we should. > But we should always remember that, in the end, we're all working for > the same dream. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/7/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> I think we're as united as we can be. Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 3/7/11, Darian Smith wrote: >>> Hi all, >>> Could I get your thoughts on something?...... >>> How unified do you think we are as a large division of students in the >>> NFB? >>> >>> We represent most of, if not all of the states, and have a wide >>> aray of talents, prospectives and ideas. We have leaders, we have >>> student divisions in our states, but do you think we are as united >>> as we can and should be? >>> >>> Are we as united as, say our state affiliates? >>> >>> If you think the answer is "no", what do you think it will take from >>> each of us to make this happen? >>> >>> Darian >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Darian Smith >>> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >>> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >>> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >>> >>> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >>> >>> — Robert Byrne >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne good points, Debate is healthy, no one says that when you, I or anyone else engages in this, that it isn't. the intelectuals debate, not for personal greed, but for mental exercise, for enlightenment, and that should always be the case as scholars. I highly doubt that we would ever subscribe to a "group think" mentality, and I hope we don't. but that leaves unity in organization, communication, and understanding that, as a member, we try to be a resource to others, we try to help each other as a community. are we always successful? probably not, but are we at tha t point where we are helping ourselves out on that fron. and As leaders, are we being good mentors, role models, spreading the word about the great things we are doing across the country? Are we connecting as division leaders, and as students, and even deeper than that, people? I'm not suggesting we are or arn't, but kind of taking the thought a little further. From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 02:02:31 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:02:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233><23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> Message-ID: <2598AAFE88F04060A88E4F2483B18031@Cptr233> Kirt, Very well said. And I agree completely. As a blind person, as a person with other disabilities, I never ever judge anyone for their abilities or their lack of skills, or the alternative ways they may do something. I do not judge others, because I do not want to be judged. Prime example, at the national convention. It's a huge hotel, I got a little disorientated. Granted I have been in this hotel 3 times now. And when I asked for help, I was treated as though my skills were not "good enough". Its not my skills that need help, its my ears that do not work. And when I explained this to said person I asked for help from, they said I needed to go to a center for training. The hotel in Detroit was a nightmare for me to navigate. Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. I am not even saying any of you would be so judgmental, but people do need to think of these things. Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of us love complaining about. True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and disabilities, not just blindness. Best, Kirt On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Marsha: > I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. > > Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as > the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. > > Jorge > > > > On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > >> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are hearing >> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >> of >> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >> say >> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >> whatever >> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >> NFB? >> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who can't >> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >> has >> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >> But >> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >> their >> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >> others >> for the additional disabilities they may have. >> >> Just my two cents, >> Marsha >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Brice Smith >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> >> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >> >> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >> disabilities. >> >> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >> this mean for our future? >> >> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >> and years to come. >> >> Any thoughts are welcome. >> >> Brice >> >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 02:05:32 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:05:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> Message-ID: Maybe, we should change our purpose statement, and advocacy style, to include other disabilities. Blessings, Joshua On 3/7/11, Brice Smith wrote: > Kirt, > > While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, > reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. > > Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their > resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our > organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve > self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for > collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help > people with additional disabilities in this framework without > compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always > happen. > > Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with > our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak > directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we do > when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in the > future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the > cutting-edge? > > As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a question > that we need to consider as we move forward. > > Brice > > On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other >> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and >> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially >> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, >> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of >> us love complaining about. >> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same >> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as >> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >> disabilities, not just blindness. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Marsha: >>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >>> >>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we >>> as >>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>> >>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>>> hearing >>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am >>>> hard >>>> of >>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>>> say >>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that >>>> why >>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>> whatever >>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>>> NFB? >>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>>> can't >>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>>> has >>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>>> But >>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>>> their >>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>> others >>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>>> >>>> Just my two cents, >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Brice Smith >>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>>> >>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>>> >>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>>> disabilities. >>>> >>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>>> this mean for our future? >>>> >>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>>> and years to come. >>>> >>>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 02:14:53 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:14:53 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <2598AAFE88F04060A88E4F2483B18031@Cptr233> References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> <2598AAFE88F04060A88E4F2483B18031@Cptr233> Message-ID: That individual was disrespectfull! I hope said person isn't on this list. People need to understand that you have to depend on your other senses, since you don't have sight. When you don't have the sense of hearing, either, you definitely have trouble traveling. I can hear just fine, but I had trouble navigating the hotel in Dallas. I'm a great cane traveler, but i've never been out of Arkansas by myself. This was a challenge, and I hope to be able to go to Orlando, but I hope the hotel won't be a nightmare for me, like the one in Dallas was. In new places, I get around better with a guide. It's good to know certain routes, but when I've got a deadline, and I need to get somewhere fast, a guide is the way to go for me. I have problems getting around, and I need that help. It wasn't as much of a problem then, as it is now. Blessings, Joshua On 3/7/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: > Kirt, > > Very well said. And I agree completely. As a blind person, as a person with > other disabilities, I never ever judge anyone for their abilities or their > lack of skills, or the alternative ways they may do something. I do not > judge others, because I do not want to be judged. > > Prime example, at the national convention. It's a huge hotel, I got a little > disorientated. Granted I have been in this hotel 3 times now. And when I > asked for help, I was treated as though my skills were not "good enough". > Its not my skills that need help, its my ears that do not work. And when I > explained this to said person I asked for help from, they said I needed to > go to a center for training. The hotel in Detroit was a nightmare for me to > navigate. > > Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. I am not even saying any of you would be > so judgmental, but people do need to think of these things. > > Marsha > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > > Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, > I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other > disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and > ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially > within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, > we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of > us love complaining about. > True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does > blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. > Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it > impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same > techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as > a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking > about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to > blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone > who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not > who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each > other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and > disabilities, not just blindness. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Marsha: >> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> >> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> >>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are > hearing >>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>> of >>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>> say >>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>> whatever >>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>> NFB? >>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who > can't >>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>> has >>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>> But >>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>> their >>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>> others >>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>> >>> Just my two cents, >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Brice Smith >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>> >>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>> >>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>> disabilities. >>> >>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>> this mean for our future? >>> >>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>> and years to come. >>> >>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > l.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From gpaikens at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 02:15:50 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:15:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> Message-ID: <93DF7789-3361-4884-9381-A62143787F1E@gmail.com> For example, what if we pushed for rehab agencies to shut down sheltered workshops because many blind people were placed there wrongfully. What happens to the people with multiple disabilities, which may include blindness, whose lives may have been better from working at these workshops? On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > Kirt, > > While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, > reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. > > Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their > resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our > organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve > self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for > collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help > people with additional disabilities in this framework without > compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always > happen. > > Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with > our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak > directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we do > when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in the > future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the > cutting-edge? > > As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a question > that we need to consider as we move forward. > > Brice > > On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other >> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and >> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially >> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, >> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of >> us love complaining about. >> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same >> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as >> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >> disabilities, not just blindness. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Marsha: >>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >>> >>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>> >>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>>> hearing >>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>>> of >>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>>> say >>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>> whatever >>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>>> NFB? >>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>>> can't >>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>>> has >>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>>> But >>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>>> their >>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>> others >>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>>> >>>> Just my two cents, >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Brice Smith >>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>>> >>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>>> >>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>>> disabilities. >>>> >>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>>> this mean for our future? >>>> >>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>>> and years to come. >>>> >>>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 02:21:12 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:21:12 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <93DF7789-3361-4884-9381-A62143787F1E@gmail.com> References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> <93DF7789-3361-4884-9381-A62143787F1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not supporting shutting down those workshops. What we're talking about is helping the people with other disabilities, as much as we help other Blind people. Blessings, Joshua On 3/7/11, Greg Aikens wrote: > For example, what if we pushed for rehab agencies to shut down sheltered > workshops because many blind people were placed there wrongfully. What > happens to the people with multiple disabilities, which may include > blindness, whose lives may have been better from working at these workshops? > > > > > On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > >> Kirt, >> >> While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, >> reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. >> >> Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their >> resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our >> organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve >> self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for >> collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help >> people with additional disabilities in this framework without >> compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always >> happen. >> >> Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with >> our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak >> directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we do >> when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in the >> future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the >> cutting-edge? >> >> As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a question >> that we need to consider as we move forward. >> >> Brice >> >> On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >>> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other >>> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and >>> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially >>> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, >>> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of >>> us love complaining about. >>> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >>> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >>> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >>> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same >>> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as >>> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >>> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >>> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >>> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >>> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >>> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >>> disabilities, not just blindness. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> Marsha: >>>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >>>> >>>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we >>>> as >>>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>>>> hearing >>>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am >>>>> hard >>>>> of >>>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much >>>>> as >>>>> say >>>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities >>>>> any >>>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that >>>>> why >>>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>>> whatever >>>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>>>> NFB? >>>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>>>> can't >>>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, >>>>> that >>>>> has >>>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this >>>>> matter. >>>>> But >>>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>>>> their >>>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>>> others >>>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>>>> >>>>> Just my two cents, >>>>> Marsha >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Brice Smith >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>>>> >>>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>>>> >>>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>>>> disabilities. >>>>> >>>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>>>> this mean for our future? >>>>> >>>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>>>> and years to come. >>>>> >>>>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>>>> >>>>> Brice >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Brice Smith >>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>>>> l.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> signature >>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> signature >>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>>> >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From gera1027 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 02:19:36 2011 From: gera1027 at gmail.com (Gerardo Corripio) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:19:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233><23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> Message-ID: <006a01cbdd37$481a3d10$0e92910a@final8nt83doe1> I'm also with a 70% hearing loss thus use hearing aids. This makes it unsafe for me to go alone on streets and the like. I find that my family (uncles and the like) assume that because my hearing is "normal"! with the use of hearing aids, it's safe for me to go alone walking and the like when the reality is different. My hearing impairment makes me hear everything as if coming from the same source, thus I can't like the regular blind people, detect where the sound is coming from. Gerardo ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:27 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of us love complaining about. True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and disabilities, not just blindness. Best, Kirt On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Marsha: > I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. > > Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as > the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. > > Jorge > > > > On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > >> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >> hearing >> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >> of >> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >> say >> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >> whatever >> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >> NFB? >> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >> can't >> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >> has >> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >> But >> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >> their >> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >> others >> for the additional disabilities they may have. >> >> Just my two cents, >> Marsha >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Brice Smith >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> >> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >> >> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >> disabilities. >> >> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >> this mean for our future? >> >> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >> and years to come. >> >> Any thoughts are welcome. >> >> Brice >> >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gera1027%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 02:28:51 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:28:51 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233> <23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> <2598AAFE88F04060A88E4F2483B18031@Cptr233> Message-ID: Bryce, I agree with you to a point, we aren't the National Federation of the Disabled. And we need to as an organization focus on advocating for the needs of most of our members. But it becomes a real problem when we treat others the way we are too often treated. Our organization as a whole isn't going to draft much legal language, for example, to help specificly the deaf blind. I see that as something teh Deaf blind devision can work on though, as they're the experts in that area. Just an example, but I think you see the principle. And we're all hypocrits if we rail against the sighted public for abusing us and descriminating and stereotyping and judging, then we turn around and do the same thing. Normal, maybe. But we can be bettter than normal. Will we? That's another question entirely. Now on to another point. There is very little which irritates me about the Federation as a whole. But our refusal to work with other disabled consumer groups, in fear of our purpose being "watered down" does bother me a little. I'm not saying we do all our work with other disability advocacy organizations. Some things need to be handled by us exclusively as a blind organization. But when another group has a good idea that could help us, why do we too often ignore it? And why do we generally not cooperate with other disability groups? No wonder many think us arrogant and self centered. I would, if I hadn't been in the Federation and seen firsthand the good we do. But I guess the Reading Rights coalition was a step in the right direction, I hope we do more along that same vain in the future. Best, Kirt On 3/7/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > That individual was disrespectfull! I hope said person isn't on this > list. People need to understand that you have to depend on your other > senses, since you don't have sight. When you don't have the sense of > hearing, either, you definitely have trouble traveling. I can hear > just fine, but I had trouble navigating the hotel in Dallas. I'm a > great cane traveler, but i've never been out of Arkansas by myself. > This was a challenge, and I hope to be able to go to Orlando, but I > hope the hotel won't be a nightmare for me, like the one in Dallas > was. In new places, I get around better with a guide. It's good to > know certain routes, but when I've got a deadline, and I need to get > somewhere fast, a guide is the way to go for me. I have problems > getting around, and I need that help. It wasn't as much of a problem > then, as it is now. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/7/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> Very well said. And I agree completely. As a blind person, as a person >> with >> other disabilities, I never ever judge anyone for their abilities or their >> lack of skills, or the alternative ways they may do something. I do not >> judge others, because I do not want to be judged. >> >> Prime example, at the national convention. It's a huge hotel, I got a >> little >> disorientated. Granted I have been in this hotel 3 times now. And when I >> asked for help, I was treated as though my skills were not "good enough". >> Its not my skills that need help, its my ears that do not work. And when I >> explained this to said person I asked for help from, they said I needed to >> go to a center for training. The hotel in Detroit was a nightmare for me >> to >> navigate. >> >> Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. I am not even saying any of you would >> be >> so judgmental, but people do need to think of these things. >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:27 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> >> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other >> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and >> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially >> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, >> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of >> us love complaining about. >> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same >> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as >> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >> disabilities, not just blindness. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Marsha: >>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >>> >>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we >>> as >>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>> >>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >> hearing >>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am >>>> hard >>>> of >>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>>> say >>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that >>>> why >>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>> whatever >>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>>> NFB? >>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >> can't >>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>>> has >>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>>> But >>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>>> their >>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>> others >>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>>> >>>> Just my two cents, >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Brice Smith >>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>>> >>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>>> >>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>>> disabilities. >>>> >>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>>> this mean for our future? >>>> >>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>>> and years to come. >>>> >>>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From hope.paulos at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 02:35:55 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 21:35:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Advocacy and some help, please. Message-ID: <6E2FD0D441C0403AB35E225023CF80BE@Espy> Hi all. Last week I went to Orlando for a vacation. Needed a nice warm place rather than the cold cold climate where I live in Maine. I went to two theme parks: Disney's Magic Kingdom and Universal Studios Islands of Adventure. Disney had a wonderful device that was equipped with GPS. I wore it around my shoulders and it provided me with info when I passed certain things like restaurants, bathrooms, rides, etc. When on the ride, it would provide me with audio descriptionat the appropriate points throughout the ride. Universal was another story. Nothing was mentioned about blind people on their website, nothing was available in Braille, and I was treated as if I was from another planet.. I am mentioning this on this list because I don't know who to contact. NFB will be in Orlando, and I'd think the least Universal can do is provide things in Braille. At the very least!!! Any help would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to email me off list if you have any other questions. My email is: hope.paulos at gmail.com Sincerely, Hope Paulos From pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com Tue Mar 8 02:51:52 2011 From: pdonahue2 at satx.rr.com (Peter Donahue) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 20:51:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Advocacy and some help, please. References: <6E2FD0D441C0403AB35E225023CF80BE@Espy> Message-ID: <000901cbdd3b$c7b380f0$82070b43@yourfsyly0jtwn> Hello Hope and everyone, So Universal made you feel like E.T? E.T. phone NFB. Peter Donahue ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hope Paulos" To: Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:35 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Advocacy and some help, please. Hi all. Last week I went to Orlando for a vacation. Needed a nice warm place rather than the cold cold climate where I live in Maine. I went to two theme parks: Disney's Magic Kingdom and Universal Studios Islands of Adventure. Disney had a wonderful device that was equipped with GPS. I wore it around my shoulders and it provided me with info when I passed certain things like restaurants, bathrooms, rides, etc. When on the ride, it would provide me with audio descriptionat the appropriate points throughout the ride. Universal was another story. Nothing was mentioned about blind people on their website, nothing was available in Braille, and I was treated as if I was from another planet.. I am mentioning this on this list because I don't know who to contact. NFB will be in Orlando, and I'd think the least Universal can do is provide things in Braille. At the very least!!! Any help would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to email me off list if you have any other questions. My email is: hope.paulos at gmail.com Sincerely, Hope Paulos _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/pdonahue2%40satx.rr.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 03:14:30 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:14:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <93DF7789-3361-4884-9381-A62143787F1E@gmail.com> References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233><23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> <93DF7789-3361-4884-9381-A62143787F1E@gmail.com> Message-ID: I wouldn't support shutting down workshops. They are a bad choice for just blind people, yet are good for those with multiple disabilities. -----Original Message----- From: Greg Aikens Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:15 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB For example, what if we pushed for rehab agencies to shut down sheltered workshops because many blind people were placed there wrongfully. What happens to the people with multiple disabilities, which may include blindness, whose lives may have been better from working at these workshops? On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > Kirt, > > While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, > reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. > > Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their > resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our > organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve > self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for > collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help > people with additional disabilities in this framework without > compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always > happen. > > Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with > our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak > directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we do > when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in the > future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the > cutting-edge? > > As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a question > that we need to consider as we move forward. > > Brice > > On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other >> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and >> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially >> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, >> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of >> us love complaining about. >> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same >> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as >> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >> disabilities, not just blindness. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Marsha: >>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >>> >>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we >>> as >>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>> >>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>>> hearing >>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am >>>> hard >>>> of >>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much >>>> as >>>> say >>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities >>>> any >>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that >>>> why >>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>> whatever >>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>>> NFB? >>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>>> can't >>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, >>>> that >>>> has >>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this >>>> matter. >>>> But >>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>>> their >>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>> others >>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>>> >>>> Just my two cents, >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Brice Smith >>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>>> >>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>>> >>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>>> disabilities. >>>> >>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>>> this mean for our future? >>>> >>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>>> and years to come. >>>> >>>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 03:27:01 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:27:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <2598AAFE88F04060A88E4F2483B18031@Cptr233> References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233><23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> <2598AAFE88F04060A88E4F2483B18031@Cptr233> Message-ID: <2BF43FCF6A3C439B8C52C031FFEE3220@OwnerPC> Marsha, I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you told that individual that you have a hearing loss and that presented additional challenges. Why is it that some judgemental people in NFB feel any deficit such as travel skills can be rectified by attending a center? People can have other challenges; teaching you can only go so far. For instance I've known people who received cane training for years, some structured discovery, some traditional, who cannot walk straight and they veer on streets. Others have trouble crossing streets and either may get assistance with it or ask for an audible signal; training, such as interpreting sound cues, can only go so far. You got to have some sense of direction for it to work well. Hotels are hard for anyone to navigate; especially big ones like conventions are in. As much as we talk independence, sight does help navigate crowds. Know why Jernigan and now Dr. Maurer have sighted guides often? Its faster and efficient! In new open areas, that is faster. Joshua said he needs help in unfamiliar places and sticks to learned routes in those spots. I'm a good cane traveler, but the orientation part is challenging; mobility part I can do; I just have trouble making mental maps and organizing space. Certainly I've traveled alone a bit in hotels including for state convention, but I memorize main things like where the elevator is. I've seen people judged also for not reading braille efficiently or fast. It may be a number of reasons such as tactile sensativity is lacking. I hope nfb comes more open in the future. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Marsha Drenth Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:02 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Kirt, Very well said. And I agree completely. As a blind person, as a person with other disabilities, I never ever judge anyone for their abilities or their lack of skills, or the alternative ways they may do something. I do not judge others, because I do not want to be judged. Prime example, at the national convention. It's a huge hotel, I got a little disorientated. Granted I have been in this hotel 3 times now. And when I asked for help, I was treated as though my skills were not "good enough". Its not my skills that need help, its my ears that do not work. And when I explained this to said person I asked for help from, they said I needed to go to a center for training. The hotel in Detroit was a nightmare for me to navigate. Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. I am not even saying any of you would be so judgmental, but people do need to think of these things. Marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of us love complaining about. True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and disabilities, not just blindness. Best, Kirt On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Marsha: > I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. > > Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as > the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. > > Jorge > > > > On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > >> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are hearing >> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >> of >> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >> say >> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >> whatever >> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >> NFB? >> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who can't >> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >> has >> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >> But >> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >> their >> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >> others >> for the additional disabilities they may have. >> >> Just my two cents, >> Marsha >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Brice Smith >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> >> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >> >> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >> disabilities. >> >> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >> this mean for our future? >> >> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >> and years to come. >> >> Any thoughts are welcome. >> >> Brice >> >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 03:28:24 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:28:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233><23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com> Message-ID: <1F094F37EC2F48618FCBB80ACA97AA8C@OwnerPC> Good point; its difficult to focus on just blindness exclusively without excluding other disabilities. -----Original Message----- From: Brice Smith Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:00 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Kirt, While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help people with additional disabilities in this framework without compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always happen. Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we do when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in the future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the cutting-edge? As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a question that we need to consider as we move forward. Brice On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, > I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other > disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and > ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially > within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, > we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of > us love complaining about. > True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does > blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. > Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it > impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same > techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as > a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking > about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to > blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone > who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not > who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each > other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and > disabilities, not just blindness. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Marsha: >> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> >> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we >> as >> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> >>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>> hearing >>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am >>> hard >>> of >>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>> say >>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that >>> why >>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>> whatever >>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>> NFB? >>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>> can't >>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>> has >>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>> But >>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>> their >>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>> others >>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>> >>> Just my two cents, >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Brice Smith >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>> >>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>> >>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>> disabilities. >>> >>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>> this mean for our future? >>> >>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>> and years to come. >>> >>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>> >>> Brice >>> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>> l.com >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com Tue Mar 8 03:29:21 2011 From: anmolpbhatia at yahoo.com (Anmol Bhatia) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 19:29:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <241935.86600.qm@web162015.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Kirt, I thought you were going to go on a vacation from the list to focus on your studies... I see your vacation was not vary long at all my friend! lol Anyway I am glad your have not gone on vacation without posting your message because I think you made some good points. I think it would help NFB and the blind people overall if as many of the disability organizations could work to together as much as we could and in my oppinion and just my oppinion I think there many areas where ACB and NFB have in common and could together advocate in behalf of the blind community. Doing so I believe would further our progress and more friendly policies to benefit the blind community could become reality. Now I am not saying that ACB or NFB should comprimise their principals or their identy or mission, but to often it seems that both organizations are out to benefit themselves andbring down the other, instead of advocating for blind community. An example where I think having two ceperate organizations has actually not been as helpful to the blind is during the Washington Cemenar when you have a group of blind individuals going to Capital to lobby fortwo or three legislation and two weeks you have another group of blind individuals going to Capital Hill lobbying for different two or three legislation. We have to realize that we as blind people are the minority in this world and we live in a society which is really uneducated about blindness and blind people. Therefore, our sighted congressional members really do not understand what is best for the blind community and how to best serve us. Some argue that we have two political parties, so why can we not have two different organizations to represent the blind? Well, unfortunately the blind community does not have the luxury that sighted people have to have two different political parties. On another point, Kurt is right when he says that NFB's fear to work with other disability organizations in fear that our goals will be water down is not helpful. Organizations like National Council on Disability (NCD) and American Association for People with Disabilities (AAPD) are frankly much more powerful then the NFB or ACB and these organizations have much more clout with our congressional members then eather of the two major blind advocacy organizations. Moverover, yes we do have issues wich are important only to the blind community, but again this is just my oppinion the disability community actually have more issues that are important to all disabilities then ones which are just important to certain community. So Kurt I agree with you when you say that when we meaning the NFB can work with other disability organizations such as NCD or AAPD. Just my thoughts. Anmol I seldom think about my limitations, and they never make me sad. Perhaps there is just a touch of yearning at times; but it is vague, like a breeze among flowers. Hellen Keller --- On Mon, 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > From: Kirt Manwaring > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Date: Monday, March 7, 2011, 8:28 PM > Bryce, >   I agree with you to a point, we aren't the National > Federation of > the Disabled.  And we need to as an organization focus > on advocating > for the needs of most of our members.  But it becomes > a real problem > when we treat others the way we are too often > treated.  Our > organization as a whole isn't going to draft much legal > language, for > example, to help specificly the deaf blind.  I see > that as something > teh Deaf blind devision can work on though, as they're the > experts in > that area.  Just an example, but I think you see the > principle.  And > we're all hypocrits if we rail against the sighted public > for abusing > us and descriminating and stereotyping and judging, then we > turn > around and do the same thing.  Normal, maybe.  > But we can be bettter > than normal.  Will we?  That's another question > entirely. >   Now on to another point.  There is very little > which irritates me > about the Federation as a whole.  But our refusal to > work with other > disabled consumer groups, in fear of our purpose being > "watered down" > does bother me a little.  I'm not saying we do all our > work with other > disability advocacy organizations.  Some things need > to be handled by > us exclusively as a blind organization.  But when > another group has a > good idea that could help us, why do we too often ignore > it?  And why > do we generally not cooperate with other disability > groups?  No wonder > many think us arrogant and self centered.  I would, if > I hadn't been > in the Federation and seen firsthand the good we do.  > But I guess the > Reading Rights coalition was a step in the right direction, > I hope we > do more along that same vain in the future. >   Best, > Kirt > > > On 3/7/11, Joshua Lester > wrote: > > That individual was disrespectfull! I hope said person > isn't on this > > list. People need to understand that you have to > depend on your other > > senses, since you don't have sight. When you don't > have the sense of > > hearing, either, you definitely have trouble > traveling. I can hear > > just fine, but I had trouble navigating the hotel in > Dallas. I'm a > > great cane traveler, but i've never been out of > Arkansas by myself. > > This was a challenge, and I hope to be able to go to > Orlando, but I > > hope the hotel won't be a nightmare for me, like the > one in Dallas > > was. In new places, I get around better with a guide. > It's good to > > know certain routes, but when I've got a deadline, and > I need to get > > somewhere fast, a guide is the way to go for me. I > have problems > > getting around, and I need that help. It wasn't as > much of a problem > > then, as it is now. Blessings, Joshua > > > > On 3/7/11, Marsha Drenth > wrote: > >> Kirt, > >> > >> Very well said. And I agree completely. As a blind > person, as a person > >> with > >> other disabilities, I never ever judge anyone for > their abilities or their > >> lack of skills, or the alternative ways they may > do something. I do not > >> judge others, because I do not want to be judged. > >> > >> Prime example, at the national convention. It's a > huge hotel, I got a > >> little > >> disorientated. Granted I have been in this hotel 3 > times now. And when I > >> asked for help, I was treated as though my skills > were not "good enough". > >> Its not my skills that need help, its my ears that > do not work. And when I > >> explained this to said person I asked for help > from, they said I needed to > >> go to a center for training. The hotel in Detroit > was a nightmare for me > >> to > >> navigate. > >> > >> Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. I am not even > saying any of you would > >> be > >> so judgmental, but people do need to think of > these things. > >> > >> Marsha > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > >> Behalf > >> Of Kirt Manwaring > >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:27 PM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > >> > >> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, > >>   I would hope that us as blind > people wouldn't judge those with other > >> disabilities.  We understand what it's like > to be judged, doubted and > >> ignored.  Would we want any of our > multi-disabled friends, especially > >> within our organizations, to feel that same > judgment?  In that regard, > >> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the > sighted public so many of > >> us love complaining about. > >>   True other disabilities doubtless > pose challenges.  So does > >> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as > best we know how. > >> Why shun or belittle someone whose other > disabilities make it > >> impossible, or at least more difficult than > practical, to use the same > >> techniques we do?  Our alternative techniques > should never be seen as > >> a one size fits all kind of system.  Because > others, and I'm talking > >> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in > adition to > >> blindness, may use a different approach.  I'm > disappointed in anyone > >> who thinks their way works for everyone.  As > Batman said, "it's not > >> who we are that defines us.  It's what we > do."  So let's all help each > >> other to do the best we can with all our various > challenges and > >> disabilities, not just blindness. > >>   Best, > >> Kirt > >> > >> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez > wrote: > >>>> Marsha: > >>> I think in that regard we have the same issue > as the sighted. > >>> > >>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or > lack thereof, I think we > >>> as > >>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a > very similar issue. > >>> > >>> Jorge > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth > wrote: > >>> > >>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets > take those of us who are > >> hearing > >>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my > primary disability, but I am > >>>> hard > >>>> of > >>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, > but is it promoted as much as > >>>> say > >>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at > all. Are these disabilities any > >>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. > But then my question is that > >>>> why > >>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, > deaf, hearing impaired, or > >>>> whatever > >>>> you want to call it, second class to those > vanilla blind persons in the > >>>> NFB? > >>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so > quick to judge those of us who > >> can't > >>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its > the judgement of people, that > >>>> has > >>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a > broken record in this matter. > >>>> But > >>>> frankly blind people are very quick to > judge others who are blind for > >>>> their > >>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its > those same people who judge > >>>> others > >>>> for the additional disabilities they may > have. > >>>> > >>>> Just my two cents, > >>>> Marsha > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On > >>>> Behalf > >>>> Of Brice Smith > >>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM > >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students > mailing list > >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > >>>> > >>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last > week who gave me some > >>>> interesting observations to consider. At > least from the perspective of > >>>> this professional, more and more students > who are blind often have > >>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that > medical advancements have > >>>> made it so that children who previously > did not survive are now living > >>>> longer lives, but often  with more > profound impairments. She notes > >>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI > professionals to work with students > >>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please > understand that I do not have > >>>> any hard data or research to back up any > of these observations. > >>>> > >>>> I realize the NFB respects and values > other disabilities. there are > >>>> many divisions within the NFB including > the Diabetes Action Network. > >>>> However, I think most people can agree > that our organization is > >>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not > other physical or mental > >>>> disabilities. > >>>> > >>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the > NFB. Advocacy organizations > >>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, > and I think it is a testament > >>>> to our strength that we gather thousands > of blind people and raise a > >>>> unified voice that might otherwise go > unheard. But if the number of > >>>> people with blindness as their only > disability is shrinking, what does > >>>> this mean for our future? > >>>> > >>>> There has been discussion on this and > other NFB lists about the future > >>>> of the organization with regards to > membership recruitment and > >>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more > people with visual > >>>> impairments are born with multiple, > "profound" disabilities, I'm > >>>> curious what, if any, impact would this > have on the NFB in the future > >>>> and years to come. > >>>> > >>>> Any thoughts are welcome. > >>>> > >>>> Brice > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Brice Smith > >>>> North Carolina State University, > Communication - Public Relations > >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options > or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > >>>> l.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 > Antivirus, version of virus > >>>> signature > >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>>> > >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 > Antivirus. > >>>> > >>>> http://www.eset.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 > Antivirus, version of virus > >>>> signature > >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>>> > >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 > Antivirus. > >>>> > >>>> http://www.eset.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options > or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or > get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > >> il.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > >> l.com > >> > >> > >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, > version of virus > >> signature > >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >> > >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >> > >> http://www.eset.com > >> > >> > >> > >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, > version of virus > >> signature > >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >> > >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >> > >> http://www.eset.com > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get > your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your > account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anmolpbhatia%40yahoo.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 03:34:56 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:34:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <808E33AE104D4317B948774AB7F7D600@OwnerPC> good points! -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) Darian, Here's how I see it. We all share, or hopefully share the conviction that we as blind students know best what we need. We should all have a common purpose; namely, advocating for blind students within the framework of the NFB. We may disagree quite passionately about how best to accomplish that goal, but we should never forget that we're working for the common good of blind students and any official NABS policy ought to reflect the opinion of the majority of us. That being said, united doesn't mean blind obedience to anything or anyone. I'm thrilled we can argue and discuss and debate. So long as we all share the same dream of equality with our sighted friends and peers, I fervently hope the debate continues. The day we stop sharing our opinions is the day we fail. But along with that the need for unity of purpose is glaringly apparent. We can disagree, we should. But we should always remember that, in the end, we're all working for the same dream. Best, Kirt On 3/7/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > I think we're as united as we can be. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/7/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Hi all, >> Could I get your thoughts on something?...... >> How unified do you think we are as a large division of students in the >> NFB? >> >> We represent most of, if not all of the states, and have a wide >> aray of talents, prospectives and ideas. We have leaders, we have >> student divisions in our states, but do you think we are as united >> as we can and should be? >> >> Are we as united as, say our state affiliates? >> >> If you think the answer is "no", what do you think it will take from >> each of us to make this happen? >> >> Darian >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 03:39:15 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:39:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Other than having a core philosophy and mission as the division does, I don't see how we can get much unity. Some state divisions are active; others not; some large and some small. State divisions seem to have a lot of autonomy in designing their activities and programs but have a constitution within the rules of NFB. Also from what I've seen students move around; they do not always show up to conventions or gatherings. So you'll have a group at convention but may not be the same group at say a youth blowout. So by being young students, its kind of hard to build unity as a group. I don't know how the large organization can be more unified. -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:38 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) Darian, Here's how I see it. We all share, or hopefully share the conviction that we as blind students know best what we need. We should all have a common purpose; namely, advocating for blind students within the framework of the NFB. We may disagree quite passionately about how best to accomplish that goal, but we should never forget that we're working for the common good of blind students and any official NABS policy ought to reflect the opinion of the majority of us. That being said, united doesn't mean blind obedience to anything or anyone. I'm thrilled we can argue and discuss and debate. So long as we all share the same dream of equality with our sighted friends and peers, I fervently hope the debate continues. The day we stop sharing our opinions is the day we fail. But along with that the need for unity of purpose is glaringly apparent. We can disagree, we should. But we should always remember that, in the end, we're all working for the same dream. Best, Kirt On 3/7/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > I think we're as united as we can be. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/7/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Hi all, >> Could I get your thoughts on something?...... >> How unified do you think we are as a large division of students in the >> NFB? >> >> We represent most of, if not all of the states, and have a wide >> aray of talents, prospectives and ideas. We have leaders, we have >> student divisions in our states, but do you think we are as united >> as we can and should be? >> >> Are we as united as, say our state affiliates? >> >> If you think the answer is "no", what do you think it will take from >> each of us to make this happen? >> >> Darian >> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 8 03:42:27 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2011 22:42:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <824BB0ACD65F471F88A72D0E187AA55E@Cptr233><23546054-6EB4-45E8-99C1-A00ED02806B2@mac.com><2598AAFE88F04060A88E4F2483B18031@Cptr233> Message-ID: I also wish we worked with other disability consumer groups sometimes. -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Bryce, I agree with you to a point, we aren't the National Federation of the Disabled. And we need to as an organization focus on advocating for the needs of most of our members. But it becomes a real problem when we treat others the way we are too often treated. Our organization as a whole isn't going to draft much legal language, for example, to help specificly the deaf blind. I see that as something teh Deaf blind devision can work on though, as they're the experts in that area. Just an example, but I think you see the principle. And we're all hypocrits if we rail against the sighted public for abusing us and descriminating and stereotyping and judging, then we turn around and do the same thing. Normal, maybe. But we can be bettter than normal. Will we? That's another question entirely. Now on to another point. There is very little which irritates me about the Federation as a whole. But our refusal to work with other disabled consumer groups, in fear of our purpose being "watered down" does bother me a little. I'm not saying we do all our work with other disability advocacy organizations. Some things need to be handled by us exclusively as a blind organization. But when another group has a good idea that could help us, why do we too often ignore it? And why do we generally not cooperate with other disability groups? No wonder many think us arrogant and self centered. I would, if I hadn't been in the Federation and seen firsthand the good we do. But I guess the Reading Rights coalition was a step in the right direction, I hope we do more along that same vain in the future. Best, Kirt On 3/7/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > That individual was disrespectfull! I hope said person isn't on this > list. People need to understand that you have to depend on your other > senses, since you don't have sight. When you don't have the sense of > hearing, either, you definitely have trouble traveling. I can hear > just fine, but I had trouble navigating the hotel in Dallas. I'm a > great cane traveler, but i've never been out of Arkansas by myself. > This was a challenge, and I hope to be able to go to Orlando, but I > hope the hotel won't be a nightmare for me, like the one in Dallas > was. In new places, I get around better with a guide. It's good to > know certain routes, but when I've got a deadline, and I need to get > somewhere fast, a guide is the way to go for me. I have problems > getting around, and I need that help. It wasn't as much of a problem > then, as it is now. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/7/11, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> Kirt, >> >> Very well said. And I agree completely. As a blind person, as a person >> with >> other disabilities, I never ever judge anyone for their abilities or >> their >> lack of skills, or the alternative ways they may do something. I do not >> judge others, because I do not want to be judged. >> >> Prime example, at the national convention. It's a huge hotel, I got a >> little >> disorientated. Granted I have been in this hotel 3 times now. And when I >> asked for help, I was treated as though my skills were not "good enough". >> Its not my skills that need help, its my ears that do not work. And when >> I >> explained this to said person I asked for help from, they said I needed >> to >> go to a center for training. The hotel in Detroit was a nightmare for me >> to >> navigate. >> >> Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. I am not even saying any of you would >> be >> so judgmental, but people do need to think of these things. >> >> Marsha >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:27 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> >> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other >> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and >> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially >> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, >> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of >> us love complaining about. >> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same >> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as >> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >> disabilities, not just blindness. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Marsha: >>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >>> >>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we >>> as >>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>> >>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >> hearing >>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am >>>> hard >>>> of >>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much >>>> as >>>> say >>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities >>>> any >>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that >>>> why >>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>> whatever >>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>>> NFB? >>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >> can't >>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, >>>> that >>>> has >>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this >>>> matter. >>>> But >>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>>> their >>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>> others >>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>>> >>>> Just my two cents, >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Brice Smith >>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>>> >>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>>> >>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>>> disabilities. >>>> >>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>>> this mean for our future? >>>> >>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>>> and years to come. >>>> >>>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>>> >>>> Brice >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>>> l.com >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>> >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>> >>>> http://www.eset.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >> l.com >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From amylsabo at comcast.net Tue Mar 8 04:46:08 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 04:46:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Advocacy and some help, please. In-Reply-To: <6E2FD0D441C0403AB35E225023CF80BE@Espy> Message-ID: <598541073.1914728.1299559568981.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> hello hope, thanks for posting this messsagee to the list. i'm glad that you had a good time at the magic kingdom but, not a good time at universal studios. i'm glad that you brought this up since many federationists will be going these parks before or after national convention this summer. as for doing this why not contact the president of the nfb of florida and email this note to him about this. i don't have hiis information but, just go to the nfb's web site and click on the link for state affiliates and then find florida and, that's where you would find their contact information. i would also pass this onto dr. maurer and mrs. jerrigan who are also but, mrs. jerrigan would be the best person to advise on this issue. that's my thoughts on this matter. take care and, i will talk to you soon. hugs, amy ----- Original Message ----- From: Hope Paulos To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Sent: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 02:35:55 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Advocacy and some help, please. Hi all. Last week I went to Orlando for a vacation. Needed a nice warm place rather than the cold cold climate where I live in Maine. I went to two theme parks: Disney's Magic Kingdom and Universal Studios Islands of Adventure. Disney had a wonderful device that was equipped with GPS. I wore it around my shoulders and it provided me with info when I passed certain things like restaurants, bathrooms, rides, etc. When on the ride, it would provide me with audio descriptionat the appropriate points throughout the ride. Universal was another story. Nothing was mentioned about blind people on their website, nothing was available in Braille, and I was treated as if I was from another planet.. I am mentioning this on this list because I don't know who to contact. NFB will be in Orlando, and I'd think the least Universal can do is provide things in Braille. At the very least!!! Any help would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to email me off list if you have any other questions. My email is: hope.paulos at gmail.com Sincerely, Hope Paulos _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 11:04:27 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel S.) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 06:04:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Advocacy and some help, please. In-Reply-To: <598541073.1914728.1299559568981.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <6E2FD0D441C0403AB35E225023CF80BE@Espy> <598541073.1914728.1299559568981.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Dear Hope, Frist, I love your name. Hope is a beautiful name with so much meaning behind it. Thank you for letting us know about Universal's access issues. many Federationists will be going to Disney this summer, and access is important. Do keep in mind that the description program is a new one, so it's constantly being updated. The problems with Universal Stuudios makes me less interested in it. We were planning on the third day being split between Universal and Animal Kingdom. We may just go to universal for a little while, just for the roller coaster and a few other rides and shows, then spend all day in Animal Kingdom. But ther is one point that should be made: Contact Disney! If they aren't made aware of the problem, they can't fix it. Were there any particular cast members who were a problem? Mention them by name if possible, or note the day, time, and location and they can look on the schedule for the cast member's name and talk to them. What would you have done to make it more accessible? Tell them! I definitey suggest writing the president of the Florida chaptar of the NFB, but I think contacting DisneyWorld would be a big step in the right direction also. And anyone who visits this summer and has similar difficulties because of visiting Universal should do the same. If enough people complain, it will get fixed, but don't expect an overnight change. Later, On 3/7/11, Amy Sabo wrote: > hello hope, > > thanks for posting this messsagee to the list. i'm glad that you had a good > time at the magic kingdom but, not a good time at universal studios. i'm > glad that you brought this up since many federationists will be going these > parks before or after national convention this summer. > > as for doing this why not contact the president of the nfb of florida and > email this note to him about this. i don't have hiis information but, just > go to the nfb's web site and click on the link for state affiliates and then > find florida and, that's where you would find their contact information. i > would also pass this onto dr. maurer and mrs. jerrigan who are also but, > mrs. jerrigan would be the best person to advise on this issue. > > that's my thoughts on this matter. take care and, i will talk to you soon. > > > hugs, > amy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hope Paulos > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Sent: Tue, 08 Mar 2011 02:35:55 -0000 (UTC) > Subject: [nabs-l] Advocacy and some help, please. > > Hi all. Last week I went to Orlando for a vacation. Needed a nice warm > place rather than the cold cold climate where I live in Maine. I went to two > theme parks: Disney's Magic Kingdom and Universal Studios Islands of > Adventure. Disney had a wonderful device that was equipped with GPS. I wore > it around my shoulders and it provided me with info when I passed certain > things like restaurants, bathrooms, rides, etc. When on the ride, it would > provide me with audio descriptionat the appropriate points throughout the > ride. Universal was another story. Nothing was mentioned about blind people > on their website, nothing was available in Braille, and I was treated as if > I was from another planet.. > I am mentioning this on this list because I don't know who to contact. NFB > will be in Orlando, and I'd think the least Universal can do is provide > things in Braille. At the very least!!! > Any help would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to email me off list if you > have any other questions. My email is: hope.paulos at gmail.com > Sincerely, > Hope Paulos > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > -- ~Jewel Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 15:20:28 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:20:28 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> Brice, You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should do about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only disability affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. Instead, tell us what you think should happen. I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent." But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not being as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access to the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus on conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth promoting? Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when power-hungry members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. Third, they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were president of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our ranks to create little havens for blind people. My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so much time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that if the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to exist in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is to encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the organization recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about what you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make a good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique needs. Just my twenty dollar's worth, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 15:30:30 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:30:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB References: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> Message-ID: Well said Jo! I'd personally like to see some of the younger members on the national board of directors. So insted of griping about it, run for a pision on the national board! I personally am not able to do it, because I have stuff which takes up my time. RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 10:20 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Brice, > > You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should > do > about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only > disability > affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. > Instead, > tell us what you think should happen. > > I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel > inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been > similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people > who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were > going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel > tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where > they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor > Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel > inferior > without your consent." > > But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not > being > as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access > to > the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be > owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus > on > conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it > might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth > promoting? > > Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. > First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national > conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when > power-hungry > members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. > Third, > they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the > fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were > president > of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate > divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional > organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our > ranks to create little havens for blind people. > > My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are > the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so > much > time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, > and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that > if > the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to > exist > in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your > question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is > to > encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the > organization > recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years > ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT > division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be > established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act > together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about > what > you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing > to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make > a > good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, > blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a > case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique > needs. > > Just my twenty dollar's worth, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Tue Mar 8 16:09:39 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:09:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> References: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> Message-ID: It would be ridiculous to eliminate the divisions! What about the Communities of Faith? Do you not think that faith is important? We go to convention, (many of us miss church,) so the devotions will be the only church we get while at convention. There are some divisions that may need to be fixed, (or eliminated,) but some need to stay. The performance division, the musicians division, and others are a great means to connect blind performers, and musicians, and people in general. The friendships made during those meetings last a lifetime. I hate calling people out, but Sarah, and Julie have been constant friends, since we met in Dallas. I know that if I have a question, I can go to one of them, and they will help me. That's the same with this student division. I was having problems with a certain thing, but I was able to obtain help from this list. I appreciate what certain divisions do, so it's a ludicris thing to say, that we need to eliminate these divisions, they just make us stronger. My 100 dollars worth, Joshua Lester. On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Brice, > > You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should do > about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only disability > affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. Instead, > tell us what you think should happen. > > I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel > inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been > similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people > who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were > going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel > tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where > they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor > Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel inferior > without your consent." > > But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not being > as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access to > the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be > owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus on > conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it > might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth > promoting? > > Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. > First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national > conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when power-hungry > members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. Third, > they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the > fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were president > of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate > divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional > organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our > ranks to create little havens for blind people. > > My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are > the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so much > time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, > and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that if > the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to exist > in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your > question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is to > encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the organization > recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years > ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT > division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be > established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act > together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about what > you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing > to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make a > good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, > blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a > case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique needs. > > Just my twenty dollar's worth, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 17:39:35 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:39:35 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> Message-ID: Joe, I think I see your point. Devisions can be distractions, and they can divide. (how's that for a tautology?) And if I'm understanding you correctly, you''re not pushing for a complete abolishment of all devisions, just serious changes in the structure. Mind elaborating? Best, Kirt On 3/8/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > It would be ridiculous to eliminate the divisions! What about the > Communities of Faith? Do you not think that faith is important? We go > to convention, (many of us miss church,) so the devotions will be the > only church we get while at convention. There are some divisions that > may need to be fixed, (or eliminated,) but some need to stay. The > performance division, the musicians division, and others are a great > means to connect blind performers, and musicians, and people in > general. The friendships made during those meetings last a lifetime. I > hate calling people out, but Sarah, and Julie have been constant > friends, since we met in Dallas. I know that if I have a question, I > can go to one of them, and they will help me. That's the same with > this student division. I was having problems with a certain thing, but > I was able to obtain help from this list. I appreciate what certain > divisions do, so it's a ludicris thing to say, that we need to > eliminate these divisions, they just make us stronger. > My 100 dollars worth, > Joshua Lester. > > On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Brice, >> >> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should >> do >> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >> disability >> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >> Instead, >> tell us what you think should happen. >> >> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been >> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people >> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were >> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >> inferior >> without your consent." >> >> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >> being >> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access >> to >> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus >> on >> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >> promoting? >> >> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >> power-hungry >> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >> Third, >> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >> president >> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >> >> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are >> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >> much >> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that >> if >> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >> exist >> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is >> to >> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >> organization >> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >> what >> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing >> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make >> a >> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >> needs. >> >> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 17:49:46 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 12:49:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> Message-ID: <0E659A03634943B584C222C0C39E0C31@Rufus> Joshua, Struck a nerve there my friend? I know that for most people the idea of eliminating divisions is ludicrous, but this is not as ludicrous as the notion of me ever being NFB president. Sorry, I should have made my sarcasm more clear. To briefly answer your point though, everyone will find different divisions they deem more important than others, and to my credit, I said I would eliminate divisions in the way they exist today. The student division has always been my weakness, and my own bold claim makes me have to think of a different way to capture what I like of the division. I did think about this but doubt anyone would care to listen to more constructive blueprints on how to make it work. Divisions do not make us stronger. They make us spread thinner, and actually, now that you bring it up, I think that if people want to exercise faith, there is the not so foreign concept of venturing out of the hotel and visiting one of hundreds of churches in any city the national convention has ever gone. I have met fellow writers, computer enthusiasts, Mormons, and thought-provoking debaters by virtue of having gone to a convention in general and not necessarily by attending annual review meetings. The potential weakening of divisions is exhibited by your having focused on this aspect of my note and ignored the rest. Still, I'm sincerely glad you expressed your views, because I'm not fully convinced my crazy notions would all work. I just happen to be crazy enough to put them out there. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester [mailto:jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 11:10 AM To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB It would be ridiculous to eliminate the divisions! What about the Communities of Faith? Do you not think that faith is important? We go to convention, (many of us miss church,) so the devotions will be the only church we get while at convention. There are some divisions that may need to be fixed, (or eliminated,) but some need to stay. The performance division, the musicians division, and others are a great means to connect blind performers, and musicians, and people in general. The friendships made during those meetings last a lifetime. I hate calling people out, but Sarah, and Julie have been constant friends, since we met in Dallas. I know that if I have a question, I can go to one of them, and they will help me. That's the same with this student division. I was having problems with a certain thing, but I was able to obtain help from this list. I appreciate what certain divisions do, so it's a ludicris thing to say, that we need to eliminate these divisions, they just make us stronger. My 100 dollars worth, Joshua Lester. On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Brice, > > You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should do > about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only disability > affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. Instead, > tell us what you think should happen. > > I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel > inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been > similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people > who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were > going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel > tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where > they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor > Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel inferior > without your consent." > > But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not being > as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access to > the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be > owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus on > conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it > might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth > promoting? > > Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. > First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national > conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when power-hungry > members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. Third, > they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the > fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were president > of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate > divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional > organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our > ranks to create little havens for blind people. > > My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are > the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so much > time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, > and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that if > the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to exist > in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your > question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is to > encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the organization > recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years > ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT > division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be > established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act > together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about what > you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing > to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make a > good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, > blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a > case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique needs. > > Just my twenty dollar's worth, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu > From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 18:40:59 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 13:40:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] O/T Hard times generation: homeless kids Message-ID: Hello all, I know Darian is working with a group of people on community service activities. The link below was passed around our office today, and aside from the fact that the community mentioned in the video is not far from Disney World, down the street from where this year's national convention will be held, I was just struck by the real state of things. I sit on the board of a transitional housing organization here in DC and think we've seen it all... Maybe some students will come together and do some type of community project while at convention? I know blind people have it tough. The unemployment rate is atrocious, but we aren't the only ones. As persons with disabilities, we sometimes get more help and have access to more resources than impoverished families. Anyway, check it out if you have a spare moment. http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7358670n&tag=related;photovideo Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 18:46:04 2011 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 13:46:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> References: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> Message-ID: Joe, Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless we learn to be more inclusive. But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do something in the future. to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the organization? I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. Brice On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Brice, > > You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should do > about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only disability > affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. Instead, > tell us what you think should happen. > > I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel > inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been > similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people > who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were > going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel > tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where > they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor > Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel inferior > without your consent." > > But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not being > as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access to > the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be > owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus on > conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it > might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth > promoting? > > Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. > First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national > conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when power-hungry > members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. Third, > they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the > fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were president > of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate > divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional > organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our > ranks to create little havens for blind people. > > My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are > the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so much > time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, > and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that if > the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to exist > in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your > question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is to > encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the organization > recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years > ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT > division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be > established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act > together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about what > you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing > to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make a > good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, > blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a > case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique needs. > > Just my twenty dollar's worth, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 19:20:52 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 13:20:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: First, having church services during convention is not the same, persay, as a division that. The faith groups are providing a service (of sorts) for the duration of the convention. Also, I do not mean to offend, but many do not choose, for various reasons, to participate in faith-based activities. No, this is not a reason to eliminate faith groups, but it may not be an activity that all are interested in. Just like not all are interested in the Writers Division or the automobile division. I agree with Joe-- we are beginning to create "havens" where blind people feel secure, but they have the potential to become safety nets. I know too many NFB members who are uber involved in the Federation, but they are not out in their communities living the way we claim we are fighting for-- as equals that can participate in the same things as our sighted peers. Having divisions, groups and committees is not a bad thing, but it does have the potential to turn us into the very thing we are against. We must find balance in all things. And many of the interest-based groups do nothing to accomplish the over-all goals of the Federation. The purpose of the NFB was to develop a collective voice that demanded equality and a better life for blind people. When it comes down to it, many interest groups were not created for this reason, and many do not focus on this concept. They do little, or nothing, to further the goals of the NFB. Bridgit Message: 9 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:09:39 -0600 From: Joshua Lester To: jsorozco at gmail.com, National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 It would be ridiculous to eliminate the divisions! What about the Communities of Faith? Do you not think that faith is important? We go to convention, (many of us miss church,) so the devotions will be the only church we get while at convention. There are some divisions that may need to be fixed, (or eliminated,) but some need to stay. The performance division, the musicians division, and others are a great means to connect blind performers, and musicians, and people in general. The friendships made during those meetings last a lifetime. I hate calling people out, but Sarah, and Julie have been constant friends, since we met in Dallas. I know that if I have a question, I can go to one of them, and they will help me. That's the same with this student division. I was having problems with a certain thing, but I was able to obtain help from this list. I appreciate what certain divisions do, so it's a ludicris thing to say, that we need to eliminate these divisions, they just make us stronger. My 100 dollars worth, Joshua Lester. From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 19:35:07 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 11:35:07 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As to Bridget's point about groups/ divisions, It would seem on the surface that some of these groups and divisions do not further the cause of the organization, but don't they represent the fact that blind people are a cross-section of society? If so, doesn't that represent the supposed "normality" of blind people? (I don't know what quite qualifies as a "normal" member of society aside from what wat our american society defines as such, even then you can argue that pretty well too.). just some thoughts, Respectfully, Darian On 3/8/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > First, having church services during convention is not the same, persay, > as a division that. The faith groups are providing a service (of sorts) > for the duration of the convention. > > Also, I do not mean to offend, but many do not choose, for various > reasons, to participate in faith-based activities. No, this is not a > reason to eliminate faith groups, but it may not be an activity that all > are interested in. Just like not all are interested in the Writers > Division or the automobile division. > > I agree with Joe-- we are beginning to create "havens" where blind > people feel secure, but they have the potential to become safety nets. > I know too many NFB members who are uber involved in the Federation, but > they are not out in their communities living the way we claim we are > fighting for-- as equals that can participate in the same things as our > sighted peers. > > Having divisions, groups and committees is not a bad thing, but it does > have the potential to turn us into the very thing we are against. We > must find balance in all things. > > And many of the interest-based groups do nothing to accomplish the > over-all goals of the Federation. The purpose of the NFB was to develop > a collective voice that demanded equality and a better life for blind > people. When it comes down to it, many interest groups were not created > for this reason, and many do not focus on this concept. They do little, > or nothing, to further the goals of the NFB. > > Bridgit > > Message: 9 > Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 10:09:39 -0600 > From: Joshua Lester > To: jsorozco at gmail.com, National Association of Blind Students > mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of > the NFB > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > It would be ridiculous to eliminate the divisions! What about the > Communities of Faith? Do you not think that faith is important? We go to > convention, (many of us miss church,) so the devotions will be the only > church we get while at convention. There are some divisions that may > need to be fixed, (or eliminated,) but some need to stay. The > performance division, the musicians division, and others are a great > means to connect blind performers, and musicians, and people in general. > The friendships made during those meetings last a lifetime. I hate > calling people out, but Sarah, and Julie have been constant friends, > since we met in Dallas. I know that if I have a question, I can go to > one of them, and they will help me. That's the same with this student > division. I was having problems with a certain thing, but I was able to > obtain help from this list. I appreciate what certain divisions do, so > it's a ludicris thing to say, that we need to eliminate these divisions, > they just make us stronger. My 100 dollars worth, Joshua Lester. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 19:46:17 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 12:46:17 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> Message-ID: Bryce, I, like you, hope the organization's leadership becomes more open-minded and inclusive in the future. From what I've seen of the student devision, the "leaders of tomorrow" if you will, I'm cautiously optomistic. It's very possible the NFB twenty years from now will work with the greater disabled community, while still retaining our individual identity and mission as blind people working for the blind. But I know I'm not committed enough to this cause to become a big leader here. Most of us aren't ever going to be National board members or state presidents. What can us, as rank and file blind people with our own talents and shortcomings, do to help this process along? The answer is different for all of us. But it all goes back to how each Federationist sees the world. If we see ourselves as different from our sighted peers, we become so. If we see ourselves as being the only successful blind people, that arrogance shows. If our lives are built around our superiority, people see self-rightiousness and smugness. We all have different spheres of influence. For me, the answer is getting the best education I can, going out in to the world, excelling at whatever I decide to do, and letting my voice be heard in the NFB. The more I interact with the public, as a person rather than a "blind person", the more people I have the chance to educate about blindness. I can honestly say my biggest contribution to the NFB's mission has been my willingness to make good friends in the community, do what they do, and show that blindness doesn't diminish me in the slightest. When people we associate with in the public come to realize that we're people, just like them, it makes it easier for any other blind people they might meet. By doing my best to be a productive citizen and capable person, and mostly succeeding, I can actualize what NFB philosophy is all about. And we can all do the same thing. Best, Kirt On 3/8/11, Brice Smith wrote: > Joe, > > Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may > gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the > arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I > think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless > we learn to be more inclusive. > > But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago > because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a > whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, > assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple > disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more > important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do > something in the future. > > to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity > and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at > what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we > protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it > time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the > organization? > > I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > > Brice > > On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Brice, >> >> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should >> do >> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >> disability >> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >> Instead, >> tell us what you think should happen. >> >> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been >> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people >> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were >> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >> inferior >> without your consent." >> >> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >> being >> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access >> to >> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus >> on >> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >> promoting? >> >> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >> power-hungry >> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >> Third, >> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >> president >> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >> >> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are >> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >> much >> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that >> if >> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >> exist >> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is >> to >> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >> organization >> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >> what >> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing >> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make >> a >> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >> needs. >> >> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Mar 9 04:01:29 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 23:01:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] microsoft word questions Message-ID: Hi all, This ribon is hard to use. Perhaps there’s shortcuts to get to some features. How can you select a bullet option; I’m sure there’s still circles and squares, and diamonds like in the past version. How do you get to print preview? I can see the layout a little and find this feature helpful to know where the print ends on the page. What is the find and replace command? How do you create a hanging indent? How do you get to the envelope labeling box? Actually I found that after a lot of searching on the ribon. But thought there may be keystrokes to do it. How do you get jaws to announce the color of the font? Thanks. Ashley From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Mar 9 04:06:36 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 23:06:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] microsoft word questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also, I have microsoft 2010. -----Original Message----- From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 11:01 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] microsoft word questions Hi all, This ribon is hard to use. Perhaps there’s shortcuts to get to some features. How can you select a bullet option; I’m sure there’s still circles and squares, and diamonds like in the past version. How do you get to print preview? I can see the layout a little and find this feature helpful to know where the print ends on the page. What is the find and replace command? How do you create a hanging indent? How do you get to the envelope labeling box? Actually I found that after a lot of searching on the ribon. But thought there may be keystrokes to do it. How do you get jaws to announce the color of the font? Thanks. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 18:53:18 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:53:18 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But who beyond NFB members are aware of these cross-sections? Would not normality for us be better served if we joined interest groups in our communities? Instead, many of us segrate ourselves to Federation groups and activities. By the way, just a thought-- I am not implying our groups are bad or detremental to the organization. However, if we only maintain relationships with Federation happenings, what are we accomplishing in society? Bridgit Message: 4 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 11:35:07 -0800 From: Darian Smith To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 As to Bridget's point about groups/ divisions, It would seem on the surface that some of these groups and divisions do not further the cause of the organization, but don't they represent the fact that blind people are a cross-section of society? If so, doesn't that represent the supposed "normality" of blind people? (I don't know what quite qualifies as a "normal" member of society aside from what wat our american society defines as such, even then you can argue that pretty well too.). just some thoughts, Respectfully, Darian From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 18:58:04 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 12:58:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello all, I have noticed many of you have had questions about Windows 7 and MS Word 2007 and 2010. On Sunday March 26, the Writers Division will host a conference call discussing how to use JAWS when editing. We will include many aspects of MS Word and how the new versions work with JAWS. We will have a couple of JAWS tech experts as well joining the call. I will send more info for those interested. Bridgit Message: 6 Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 23:01:29 -0500 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: [nabs-l] microsoft word questions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi all, This ribon is hard to use. Perhaps there?s shortcuts to get to some features. How can you select a bullet option; I?m sure there?s still circles and squares, and diamonds like in the past version. How do you get to print preview? I can see the layout a little and find this feature helpful to know where the print ends on the page. What is the find and replace command? How do you create a hanging indent? How do you get to the envelope labeling box? Actually I found that after a lot of searching on the ribon. But thought there may be keystrokes to do it. How do you get jaws to announce the color of the font? Thanks. Ashley From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 21:30:39 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 13:30:39 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I totally see your point, Bridgit. I think it would be good to find your place where you feel you best connect in the organization, and use that as a way to get involved in other things. who's to say people don't. But Yes, as can be applied to many things; everything in moderation. On 3/9/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Hello all, > > I have noticed many of you have had questions about Windows 7 and MS > Word 2007 and 2010. On Sunday March 26, the Writers Division will host > a conference call discussing how to use JAWS when editing. We will > include many aspects of MS Word and how the new versions work with JAWS. > > We will have a couple of JAWS tech experts as well joining the call. > > I will send more info for those interested. > > Bridgit > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 23:01:29 -0500 > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: [nabs-l] microsoft word questions > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hi all, > This ribon is hard to use. Perhaps there?s shortcuts to get to some > features. > > How can you select a bullet option; I?m sure there?s still circles and > squares, and diamonds like in the past version. How do you get to print > preview? I can see the layout a little and find this feature helpful to > know where the print ends on the page. > > What is the find and replace command? > How do you create a hanging indent? > How do you get to the envelope labeling box? Actually I found that > after a lot of searching on the ribon. But thought there may be > keystrokes to do it. How do you get jaws to announce the color of the > font? > > Thanks. > Ashley > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 22:29:49 2011 From: nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com (community service Outreach) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 16:29:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 Message-ID: Hi everyone. It's time for another community service conference call! We will have much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention service project. We will also have a discussion of summer oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope you're on the call. When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST Where: Call 218.339.3600 Passcode: 808277 From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 23:02:53 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 16:02:53 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear list, Speaking of moderation, I have a quick question. Is Dave our only list moderator? Best, Kirt On 3/9/11, Darian Smith wrote: > I totally see your point, Bridgit. > I think it would be good to find your place where you feel you best > connect in the organization, and use that as a way to get > involved in other things. who's to say people don't. But Yes, as > can be applied to many things; everything in moderation. > > On 3/9/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> I have noticed many of you have had questions about Windows 7 and MS >> Word 2007 and 2010. On Sunday March 26, the Writers Division will host >> a conference call discussing how to use JAWS when editing. We will >> include many aspects of MS Word and how the new versions work with JAWS. >> >> We will have a couple of JAWS tech experts as well joining the call. >> >> I will send more info for those interested. >> >> Bridgit >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 23:01:29 -0500 >> From: >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] microsoft word questions >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Hi all, >> This ribon is hard to use. Perhaps there?s shortcuts to get to some >> features. >> >> How can you select a bullet option; I?m sure there?s still circles and >> squares, and diamonds like in the past version. How do you get to print >> preview? I can see the layout a little and find this feature helpful to >> know where the print ends on the page. >> >> What is the find and replace command? >> How do you create a hanging indent? >> How do you get to the envelope labeling box? Actually I found that >> after a lot of searching on the ribon. But thought there may be >> keystrokes to do it. How do you get jaws to announce the color of the >> font? >> >> Thanks. >> Ashley >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 00:22:20 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 17:22:20 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] In Defense of Divisions Message-ID: Hi all, As president of a national NFB division I feel compelled to speak in support of our divisions. I believe the national NFB divisions are essential for two reasons. First, they greatly facilitate the mentoring and networking that is such an integral part of what we do. When I get a call from a student who just became blind and wants to obtain resources and information, it's much easier for me to say "Hey, why don't you join NABS, and you can talk to other blind students in your major and find out what techniques they use" than to say, "Hey, why don't you join the NFB, a huge consumer organization made up of thousands of blind people of all ages and professions?" Of course I tell them that by joining NABS they're also joining the NFB, which provides a whole wealth of additional resources. But much of the important work our divisions do, if they're as active and strong as they should be, is to facilitate mentoring and the exchange of information about specific topics. If you've been to a Blind Lawyers, Blind Merchants, or Blind Educators meeting at NFB convention, why did you go? The second reason for divisions is to inform the rest of the organization about what advocacy issues matter and how to tackle them. Much of the work the NFB national office is involved in at the moment is geared toward improving accessibility of online college course systems, textbooks, etc. This battle was sparked by information from real members of our student division, and we continue to help them gather the data they need to understand the scope of the problem. The parents' division helps us who are not parents understand what kinds of issues their blind children are facing with education and why these issues matter. I actually think our divisions for people with multiple disabilities (like the deaf/blind division, for instance) should be nurtured so they can help us understand the unique difficulties they face so we can include these problems in our collective advocacy strategy. Not to mention, as others said earlier in this thread, that blind people with other disabilities sometimes tend to feel a bit lost in the big wide NFB. By being part of a division or interest group, these people are still in the NFB, but inside a supportive community of peers and potential mentors. I've noticed that lately on this list there is a lot of "either-or" thinking being expressed. Either you hang out with blind people, or you join the sighted community. Either we join cross-disability coalitions or we reject people with multiple disabilities. And, either we remain united or we form divisions and special interest groups. I believe this kind of dualistic thought is unnecessarily restrictive, and I would like to see more "both-and" propositions considered here. I feel very fortunate to have close and rewarding relationships with both blind and sighted people. Similarly, I believe the NFB can only grow stronger by investing in our divisions and special interest groups, which can do much to bring in new members, utilize our collective resources to help blind people, and inform our advocacy priorities. Despite being called "divisions", our divisions should not compete with one another or "divide" the organization politically. In fact, I've seen several NFB divisions collaborate when planning events. Furthermore, of course our NFB divisions aren't going to replace other community organizations we may wish to join. It's entirely possible to be active in NABS or another NFB division, but also active in campus or community student organizations, church groups, etc. In fact, I suspect many of us who are railing against divisions, by virtue of being on this list and being involved in your state student divisions, are using this kind of "both-and" solution. I will conclude by conceding that some of our NFB divisions are not very active. That can be due to many factors including problems with the division's elected leadership, lack of membership, or simply lack of interest between conventions. However, I don't think this justifies getting rid of divisions at all. National divisions can always afford to do more stuff-even if it's just setting up a listserv for blind people sharing a professional interest to network or setting up a few conference calls between conventions. Best, Arielle -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From JFreeh at nfb.org Thu Mar 10 03:11:13 2011 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 21:11:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Executive Mark Riccobono Honored by Wisconsin Alumni Association Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org NFB Executive Mark Riccobono Honored by Wisconsin Alumni Association Named a 2011 Forward under 40 Honoree Baltimore, Maryland (March 9, 2011): The National Federation of the Blind (NFB), the oldest and largest organization of blind people in the United States, today announced that Mark Riccobono, executive director of the NFB Jernigan Institute, has been named a 2011 Forward under 40 honoree by the Wisconsin Alumni Association. The Forward under 40 award program honors University of Wisconsin graduates under age forty who are making a positive impact on the world. Riccobono is a 1999 graduate of the University of Wisconsin. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: “We are very pleased and proud to see Mark Riccobono receive this tremendous honor from his alma mater. Under his exemplary leadership of the NFB Jernigan Institute, countless innovative programs that tackle critical issues of importance to blind people have been developed, including science academies and advocacy programs for blind youth and initiatives that seek to improve the Braille literacy rate among blind people both young and old. He truly exemplifies the NFB motto: ‘changing what it means to be blind.’” Mark Riccobono said: “As the executive director of the first research and training institute on blindness led by the blind, I have been fortunate to play a role in many exciting and life-changing developments for blind people in America­including getting behind the wheel of a car equipped with a nonvisual interface that allows the blind to drive independently. While we have made much progress, there is still more to be done. Only 10 percent of blind children are learning Braille in this country, and this directly contributes to a 70 percent unemployment rate among blind people in the United States. I humbly thank the Wisconsin Alumni Association for this great honor and hope that it will create interest in the work of the Federation among my fellow Wisconsin Alumni as well as those from other great universities.” Riccobono was the first director of the Wisconsin Center for the Blind and Visually Impaired, a state agency that serves Wisconsin’s blind children. Since coming to the headquarters of the National Federation of the Blind in 2003, he has spearheaded many initiatives, including educational programs designed to engage blind youth in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. He currently serves as executive director of the NFB Jernigan Institute. On January 29, 2011, Riccobono became the first blind person to drive a street vehicle in public without the assistance of a sighted person. He was behind the wheel of a Ford Escape hybrid equipped with nonvisual technology and successfully navigated 1.5 miles of the road course section of the famed track at the Daytona International Speedway. This successful demonstration was part of the NFB’s Blind Driver Challenge™ initiative, which challenges universities, technology developers, and other interested innovators to establish NFB Blind Driver Challenge™ (BDC) teams­in collaboration with the NFB­to build interface technologies that will empower blind people to drive a car independently. Riccobono and his wife Melissa, who has worked as a school counselor and serves as president of the Maryland affiliate of the NFB, live in Baltimore with their two small children, Austin and Oriana. For more information about the National Federation of the Blind, please visit www.nfb.org. ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people’s lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. From orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 13:54:50 2011 From: orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com (Laura Glowacki) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:54:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo Products Message-ID: <82820B09004C46B195EF641BB53C2B2F@LAURASCOMPUTER> This company is selling demo technologies at reduced prices. Their website is: http://smartati.com/contact-us Please see below, and the flyer is attached to this email. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Cosatino To: laura glowacki Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:54 PM Subject: Fw: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo Products ----- Original Message ----- From: Hap Holly To: Hap Holly Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 3:07 PM Subject: Fw: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo Products *I'm sending this to my entire mailing list on behalf of my blind computer guru, Roger Cusson in Maine. Please pass this along to any 'blind' lists you may be connected with ... or folks that are using or could use some of this technology.* Hap ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger R. Cusson To: 'Hap Holly' Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 2:30 PM Subject: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo Products Greetings on this fine day, As you know, I work with Smart Assistive Technologies, down in Rochester, NH... They wish to move a pretty serious amount of Freedom Scientific blind/low-vision product down the road!!! These are demo pieces, and the savings on these items is at least 50% off retail... They have approached me, and specifically asked if I could put out the message, that they wish to sell these demo pieces, at a substantial savings over retail costs... If you would please consider passing this message, and its associated attachment along to folks that might be looking for what we have on special, that would be much appreciated. As I do make some small amount of commission on the sale of these pieces, if when calling into Smart Assistive Technologies, please indicate to the staff, that Roger Cusson sent them, in regards to the sale of these Freedom Scientific demo pieces. I appreciate your assistance concerning this matter, and I truly pray that life is treating you extremely well!!! Respectfully, Roger R., Cusson Computer Access Specialist Seeing Hands Enterprises - Lisbon (207) 353-5007 Skype Contact: rcusson A quote to live by: "Any program that works perfectly, simply hasn't been tested properly!" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Save Thousands on Low-Vision Demo Products from Smart Assistive Technologies.doc Type: application/msword Size: 340480 bytes Desc: not available URL: From trillian551 at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 17:21:34 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:21:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] MAC and Gmail Message-ID: Hi All, So I have a mac question. Usually when you start typing a name in gmail it will automatically finish the address. Is there anyway to do that on a mac? When i use safari with gmail, it won't let me automatically complete the name. Thanks. -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From kobycox at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 17:28:24 2011 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:28:24 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Executive Mark Riccobono Honored by Wisconsin Alumni Association In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jessica, Can you please emai me off list? Right back soon, Koby. My email address is: kobycox at gmail.com Sent from my iPhone On Mar 9, 2011, at 9:11 PM, "Freeh, Jessica" (by way of David Andrews) wrote: > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > CONTACT: > > Chris Danielsen > > Director of Public Relations > > National Federation of the Blind > > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > > > NFB Executive Mark Riccobono Honored > by Wisconsin Alumni Association > > > Named a 2011 Forward under 40 Honoree > > > > Baltimore, Maryland (March 9, 2011): The National Federation of the Blind (NFB), the oldest and largest organization of blind people in the United States, today announced that Mark Riccobono, executive director of the NFB Jernigan Institute, has been named a 2011 Forward under 40 honoree by the Wisconsin Alumni Association. The Forward under 40 award program honors University of Wisconsin graduates under age forty who are making a positive impact on the world. Riccobono is a 1999 graduate of the University of Wisconsin. > > > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: “We are very pleased and proud to see Mark Riccobono receive this tremendous honor from his alma mater. Under his exemplary leadership of the NFB Jernigan Institute, countless innovative programs that tackle critical issues of importance to blind people have been developed, including science academies and advocacy programs for blind youth and initiatives that seek to improve the Braille literacy rate among blind people both young and old. He truly exemplifies the NFB motto: ‘changing what it means to be blind.’” > > > > Mark Riccobono said: “As the executive director of the first research and training institute on blindness led by the blind, I have been fortunate to play a role in many exciting and life-changing developments for blind people in America including getting behind the wheel of a car equipped with a nonvisual interface that allows the blind to drive independently. While we have made much progress, there is still more to be done. Only 10 percent of blind children are learning Braille in this country, and this directly contributes to a 70 percent unemployment rate among blind people in the United States. I humbly thank the Wisconsin Alumni Association for this great honor and hope that it will create interest in the work of the Federation among my fellow Wisconsin Alumni as well as those from other great universities.” > > > > Riccobono was the first director of the Wisconsin Center for the Blind and Visually Impaired, a state agency that serves Wisconsin’s blind children. Since coming to the headquarters of the National Federation of the Blind in 2003, he has spearheaded many initiatives, including educational programs designed to engage blind youth in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. He currently serves as executive director of the NFB Jernigan Institute. > > > > On January 29, 2011, Riccobono became the first blind person to drive a street vehicle in public without the assistance of a sighted person. He was behind the wheel of a Ford Escape hybrid equipped with nonvisual technology and successfully navigated 1.5 miles of the road course section of the famed track at the Daytona International Speedway. This successful demonstration was part of the NFB’s Blind Driver Challenge™ initiative, which challenges universities, technology developers, and other interested innovators to establish NFB Blind Driver Challenge™ (BDC) teams in collaboration with the NFB to build interface technologies that will empower blind people to drive a car independently. > > > > Riccobono and his wife Melissa, who has worked as a school counselor and serves as president of the Maryland affiliate of the NFB, live in Baltimore with their two small children, Austin and Oriana. > > > > For more information about the National Federation of the Blind, please visit www.nfb.org. > > > > > > ### > > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people’s lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From gcazares10 at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 17:35:43 2011 From: gcazares10 at gmail.com (Gabriel Cazares) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:35:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Driver Challenge on the Today Show Message-ID: For those of you, like me, that did not wake up at 8:00 A.M. Eastern, 7:00 A.M. Central on Sunday to watch the news report on the Blind Driver Challenge, here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3muYZAGSm9Y Enjoy! ...Gabe -- Gabriel M. Cazares, 2nd Vice President Texas Association of Blind Students (TABS) www.nfb-texas.org/tabs.html Phone: 713-581-0619 "Of course, loyalty to one's friends is an important principle. But so is writing what you believe--otherwise, why bother to write at all?"-Arianna Huffington From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 18:40:34 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 10:40:34 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence 2011 Message-ID: Hello fellow Students, Please find atatched information about a great oppertunity offered by Blind Industries and Services of Maryland (BISM). Last year, Independence 2010 was a great success, and you better believe this year's 2011 version is going to be even better! So, please take a look at the information, and pass along. -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: resummerprogramflyer.zip Type: application/zip Size: 794461 bytes Desc: not available URL: From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 19:09:23 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:09:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] MAC and Gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The most efficient way of using gmail is through the mail app included in Mac os x. If you sink your gmail address book with your Mac, email addresses will complete themselves when typing etc. This is very simple to do and it works a lot better than the gmail site, but it only makes sense if you are using your own Mac and not somebody else's. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 10, 2011, at 12:21 PM, Mary Fernandez wrote: > Hi All, > So I have a mac question. Usually when you start typing a name in > gmail it will automatically finish the address. Is there anyway to do > that on a mac? When i use safari with gmail, it won't let me > automatically complete the name. > Thanks. > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > President: Georgia Association of Blind Students > Emory University 2012 > P.O. Box 123056 > Atlanta Ga. > 30322 > Phone: 732-857-7004 > > "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much > rather you weren't doing it." > Terry Pratchett > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 19:17:36 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 13:17:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Arielle, I agree completely with your argument, and it is in part to our divisions that much has been accomplished for the blind community-- for lack of a better expression. I agree that the divisions allow us, particularly those who are newly blind, or new to the Federation, to gain some insight and learn about the possibilities. The divisions also help find methods and tools that give us an opportunity to achieve success in our endeavors. However, at some point, we must teach people to seek the world outside the Federation. This does not mean we reject the NFB or blind people, and it certainly is not a reason to eliminate divisions, but our goal is to achieve equality among our sighted peers, but when we close ourselves off from the world at large, we are not working towards this goal. I in no way support a rejection of any group-- sighted or blind. Balance in all things is what I stress. Too many of us have our hands in many facets of the NFB and not participating in our communities except for basic involvement-- work, school, family-- if even this. I am not saying this is an epidemic, but it is something to consider. Those of us who have discovered this balance and achieved the independence and confidence to further the Federation's goals of participating in society, can forget that not everyone is at this level. We certainly should support the Federation and any group associated with the NFB, and eliminating groups that often are the extensions that draw people into the organization, would be detremental, but we also must help members discover how to take what they learn and become those active, vital members of society we always push as the Federation's goals. Bridgit Message: 6 Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 17:22:20 -0700 From: Arielle Silverman To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] In Defense of Divisions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, As president of a national NFB division I feel compelled to speak in support of our divisions. I believe the national NFB divisions are essential for two reasons. First, they greatly facilitate the mentoring and networking that is such an integral part of what we do. When I get a call from a student who just became blind and wants to obtain resources and information, it's much easier for me to say "Hey, why don't you join NABS, and you can talk to other blind students in your major and find out what techniques they use" than to say, "Hey, why don't you join the NFB, a huge consumer organization made up of thousands of blind people of all ages and professions?" Of course I tell them that by joining NABS they're also joining the NFB, which provides a whole wealth of additional resources. But much of the important work our divisions do, if they're as active and strong as they should be, is to facilitate mentoring and the exchange of information about specific topics. If you've been to a Blind Lawyers, Blind Merchants, or Blind Educators meeting at NFB convention, why did you go? The second reason for divisions is to inform the rest of the organization about what advocacy issues matter and how to tackle them. Much of the work the NFB national office is involved in at the moment is geared toward improving accessibility of online college course systems, textbooks, etc. This battle was sparked by information from real members of our student division, and we continue to help them gather the data they need to understand the scope of the problem. The parents' division helps us who are not parents understand what kinds of issues their blind children are facing with education and why these issues matter. I actually think our divisions for people with multiple disabilities (like the deaf/blind division, for instance) should be nurtured so they can help us understand the unique difficulties they face so we can include these problems in our collective advocacy strategy. Not to mention, as others said earlier in this thread, that blind people with other disabilities sometimes tend to feel a bit lost in the big wide NFB. By being part of a division or interest group, these people are still in the NFB, but inside a supportive community of peers and potential mentors. I've noticed that lately on this list there is a lot of "either-or" thinking being expressed. Either you hang out with blind people, or you join the sighted community. Either we join cross-disability coalitions or we reject people with multiple disabilities. And, either we remain united or we form divisions and special interest groups. I believe this kind of dualistic thought is unnecessarily restrictive, and I would like to see more "both-and" propositions considered here. I feel very fortunate to have close and rewarding relationships with both blind and sighted people. Similarly, I believe the NFB can only grow stronger by investing in our divisions and special interest groups, which can do much to bring in new members, utilize our collective resources to help blind people, and inform our advocacy priorities. Despite being called "divisions", our divisions should not compete with one another or "divide" the organization politically. In fact, I've seen several NFB divisions collaborate when planning events. Furthermore, of course our NFB divisions aren't going to replace other community organizations we may wish to join. It's entirely possible to be active in NABS or another NFB division, but also active in campus or community student organizations, church groups, etc. In fact, I suspect many of us who are railing against divisions, by virtue of being on this list and being involved in your state student divisions, are using this kind of "both-and" solution. I will conclude by conceding that some of our NFB divisions are not very active. That can be due to many factors including problems with the division's elected leadership, lack of membership, or simply lack of interest between conventions. However, I don't think this justifies getting rid of divisions at all. National divisions can always afford to do more stuff-even if it's just setting up a listserv for blind people sharing a professional interest to network or setting up a few conference calls between conventions. Best, Arielle -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 21:11:13 -0600 From: "Freeh, Jessica" (by way of David Andrews ) To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Executive Mark Riccobono Honored by Wisconsin Alumni Association Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org NFB Executive Mark Riccobono Honored by Wisconsin Alumni Association Named a 2011 Forward under 40 Honoree Baltimore, Maryland (March 9, 2011): The National Federation of the Blind (NFB), the oldest and largest organization of blind people in the United States, today announced that Mark Riccobono, executive director of the NFB Jernigan Institute, has been named a 2011 Forward under 40 honoree by the Wisconsin Alumni Association. The Forward under 40 award program honors University of Wisconsin graduates under age forty who are making a positive impact on the world. Riccobono is a 1999 graduate of the University of Wisconsin. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: ?We are very pleased and proud to see Mark Riccobono receive this tremendous honor from his alma mater. Under his exemplary leadership of the NFB Jernigan Institute, countless innovative programs that tackle critical issues of importance to blind people have been developed, including science academies and advocacy programs for blind youth and initiatives that seek to improve the Braille literacy rate among blind people both young and old. He truly exemplifies the NFB motto: ?changing what it means to be blind.?? Mark Riccobono said: ?As the executive director of the first research and training institute on blindness led by the blind, I have been fortunate to play a role in many exciting and life-changing developments for blind people in America?including getting behind the wheel of a car equipped with a nonvisual interface that allows the blind to drive independently. While we have made much progress, there is still more to be done. Only 10 percent of blind children are learning Braille in this country, and this directly contributes to a 70 percent unemployment rate among blind people in the United States. I humbly thank the Wisconsin Alumni Association for this great honor and hope that it will create interest in the work of the Federation among my fellow Wisconsin Alumni as well as those from other great universities.? Riccobono was the first director of the Wisconsin Center for the Blind and Visually Impaired, a state agency that serves Wisconsin?s blind children. Since coming to the headquarters of the National Federation of the Blind in 2003, he has spearheaded many initiatives, including educational programs designed to engage blind youth in the fields of science, technology, engineering, and mathematics. He currently serves as executive director of the NFB Jernigan Institute. On January 29, 2011, Riccobono became the first blind person to drive a street vehicle in public without the assistance of a sighted person. He was behind the wheel of a Ford Escape hybrid equipped with nonvisual technology and successfully navigated 1.5 miles of the road course section of the famed track at the Daytona International Speedway. This successful demonstration was part of the NFB?s Blind Driver Challenge? initiative, which challenges universities, technology developers, and other interested innovators to establish NFB Blind Driver Challenge? (BDC) teams?in collaboration with the NFB?to build interface technologies that will empower blind people to drive a car independently. Riccobono and his wife Melissa, who has worked as a school counselor and serves as president of the Maryland affiliate of the NFB, live in Baltimore with their two small children, Austin and Oriana. For more information about the National Federation of the Blind, please visit www.nfb.org. ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people?s lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:54:50 -0600 From: "Laura Glowacki" To: "Discussion list for NABS, National Alliance of Blind Students." , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" , Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo Products Message-ID: <82820B09004C46B195EF641BB53C2B2F at LAURASCOMPUTER> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This company is selling demo technologies at reduced prices. Their website is: http://smartati.com/contact-us Please see below, and the flyer is attached to this email. ----- Original Message ----- From: Frank Cosatino To: laura glowacki Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:54 PM Subject: Fw: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo Products ----- Original Message ----- From: Hap Holly To: Hap Holly Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 3:07 PM Subject: Fw: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo Products *I'm sending this to my entire mailing list on behalf of my blind computer guru, Roger Cusson in Maine. Please pass this along to any 'blind' lists you may be connected with ... or folks that are using or could use some of this technology.* Hap ----- Original Message ----- From: Roger R. Cusson To: 'Hap Holly' Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 2:30 PM Subject: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo Products Greetings on this fine day, As you know, I work with Smart Assistive Technologies, down in Rochester, NH... They wish to move a pretty serious amount of Freedom Scientific blind/low-vision product down the road!!! These are demo pieces, and the savings on these items is at least 50% off retail... They have approached me, and specifically asked if I could put out the message, that they wish to sell these demo pieces, at a substantial savings over retail costs... If you would please consider passing this message, and its associated attachment along to folks that might be looking for what we have on special, that would be much appreciated. As I do make some small amount of commission on the sale of these pieces, if when calling into Smart Assistive Technologies, please indicate to the staff, that Roger Cusson sent them, in regards to the sale of these Freedom Scientific demo pieces. I appreciate your assistance concerning this matter, and I truly pray that life is treating you extremely well!!! Respectfully, Roger R., Cusson Computer Access Specialist Seeing Hands Enterprises - Lisbon (207) 353-5007 Skype Contact: rcusson A quote to live by: "Any program that works perfectly, simply hasn't been tested properly!" -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Save Thousands on Low-Vision Demo Products from Smart Assistive Technologies.doc Type: application/msword Size: 340480 bytes Desc: not available URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 11 ************************************** From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 20:17:45 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 12:17:45 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bridget, these points brought up are good ones. I would say that the encouragement to get out into the world and be the confident and skilled blind person (we are basicly saying, being the best possible individual )you can be, comes into play with mentorship. So, if we wish to see people take a step out into the"real world", let us model it in our actions. This is to say, the arguments can be made in chapter meetings and on list serves, but the real noise is made when we do what we say we do or "walking the walk". What we have historrically faught for, is the right to make our own way. In the federation, making your own way is just as valid. if someone wishes to have their hands in five different divisions, two affiliates, two and a half chapters, and an extra committee, then more power to them. If someone wishes to just show up to convention, and watch divisions do what they do, and then go and get uber involved in the work of sustainability organizations, or religious groups, then great. I know people via the NFB who are deeply involved, and people who are rarely. I think the root of the work we do, and the divisions that exist is tied to the idea of finding a common ground, a meeting place for us as blind people to understand the truth about blindness. We know the truth is that blindness isn't limitting, that we are as dynamic and free- thinking, or as narrow-minded as anybody else is with acception that we so happenn to not see as well as everyone else. And to tie it back to divisions, we know that our divisions have this ideal, our philosiphy in mind or else they wouldn't be a division. In my mind, Arielle needs not defend a division, though I am a member of a few, and understand and agree with what she is saying. Historically, it seems like the organization tends to take an "either, or" approach to situations. This has it's validity to be sure, but, what of the gray area? Any future lawyers, scientests, or the like on this list? I'm sure that you can see both the need for divisions, and the need for folks to make their own way, and see how both don't need to be exclusive to each other. Sorry for the multi - directional rant. Darian On 3/10/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Arielle, > > I agree completely with your argument, and it is in part to our > divisions that much has been accomplished for the blind community-- for > lack of a better expression. > > I agree that the divisions allow us, particularly those who are newly > blind, or new to the Federation, to gain some insight and learn about > the possibilities. The divisions also help find methods and tools that > give us an opportunity to achieve success in our endeavors. > > However, at some point, we must teach people to seek the world outside > the Federation. This does not mean we reject the NFB or blind people, > and it certainly is not a reason to eliminate divisions, but our goal is > to achieve equality among our sighted peers, but when we close ourselves > off from the world at large, we are not working towards this goal. > > I in no way support a rejection of any group-- sighted or blind. > Balance in all things is what I stress. Too many of us have our hands > in many facets of the NFB and not participating in our communities > except for basic involvement-- work, school, family-- if even this. > > I am not saying this is an epidemic, but it is something to consider. > Those of us who have discovered this balance and achieved the > independence and confidence to further the Federation's goals of > participating in society, can forget that not everyone is at this level. > > We certainly should support the Federation and any group associated with > the NFB, and eliminating groups that often are the extensions that draw > people into the organization, would be detremental, but we also must > help members discover how to take what they learn and become those > active, vital members of society we always push as the Federation's > goals. > > Bridgit > > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2011 17:22:20 -0700 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] In Defense of Divisions > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi all, > > As president of a national NFB division I feel compelled to speak in > support of our divisions. I believe the national NFB divisions are > essential for two reasons. First, they greatly facilitate the mentoring > and networking that is such an integral part of what we do. When I get a > call from a student who just became blind and wants to obtain resources > and information, it's much easier for me to say "Hey, why don't you join > NABS, and you can talk to other blind students in your major and find > out what techniques they use" than to say, "Hey, why don't you join the > NFB, a huge consumer organization made up of thousands of blind people > of all ages and professions?" Of course I tell them that by joining NABS > they're also joining the NFB, which provides a whole wealth of > additional resources. But much of the important work our divisions do, > if they're as active and strong as they should be, is to facilitate > mentoring and the exchange of information about specific topics. If > you've been to a Blind Lawyers, Blind Merchants, or Blind Educators > meeting at NFB convention, why did you go? The second reason for > divisions is to inform the rest of the organization about what advocacy > issues matter and how to tackle them. Much of the work the NFB national > office is involved in at the moment is geared toward improving > accessibility of online college course systems, textbooks, etc. This > battle was sparked by information from real members of our student > division, and we continue to help them gather the data they need to > understand the scope of the problem. The parents' division helps us who > are not parents understand what kinds of issues their blind children are > facing with education and why these issues matter. I actually think our > divisions for people with multiple disabilities (like the deaf/blind > division, for instance) should be nurtured so they can help us > understand the unique difficulties they face so we can include these > problems in our collective advocacy strategy. Not to mention, as others > said earlier in this thread, that blind people with other disabilities > sometimes tend to feel a bit lost in the big wide NFB. By being part of > a division or interest group, these people are still in the NFB, but > inside a supportive community of peers and potential mentors. > > I've noticed that lately on this list there is a lot of "either-or" > thinking being expressed. Either you hang out with blind people, or you > join the sighted community. Either we join cross-disability coalitions > or we reject people with multiple disabilities. And, either we remain > united or we form divisions and special interest groups. I believe this > kind of dualistic thought is unnecessarily restrictive, and I would like > to see more "both-and" propositions considered here. I feel very > fortunate to have close and rewarding relationships with both blind and > sighted people. Similarly, I believe the NFB can only grow stronger by > investing in our divisions and special interest groups, which can do > much to bring in new members, utilize our collective resources to help > blind people, and inform our advocacy priorities. Despite being called > "divisions", our divisions should not compete with one another or > "divide" the organization politically. In fact, I've seen several NFB > divisions collaborate when planning events. Furthermore, of course our > NFB divisions aren't going to replace other community organizations we > may wish to join. It's entirely possible to be active in NABS or another > NFB division, but also active in campus or community student > organizations, church groups, etc. In fact, I suspect many of us who are > railing against divisions, by virtue of being on this list and being > involved in your state student divisions, are using this kind of > "both-and" solution. > > I will conclude by conceding that some of our NFB divisions are not very > active. That can be due to many factors including problems with the > division's elected leadership, lack of membership, or simply lack of > interest between conventions. However, I don't think this justifies > getting rid of divisions at all. National divisions can always afford to > do more stuff-even if it's just setting up a listserv for blind people > sharing a professional interest to network or setting up a few > conference calls between conventions. > > Best, > Arielle > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2011 21:11:13 -0600 > From: "Freeh, Jessica" (by way of David Andrews > ) > To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] NFB Executive Mark Riccobono Honored by Wisconsin > Alumni Association > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > > > > CONTACT: > > Chris Danielsen > > Director of Public Relations > > National Federation of the Blind > > (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 > > (410) 262-1281 (Cell) > > cdanielsen at nfb.org > > > > NFB Executive Mark Riccobono Honored > by Wisconsin Alumni Association > > > Named a 2011 Forward under 40 Honoree > > > > Baltimore, Maryland (March 9, 2011): The National > Federation of the Blind (NFB), the oldest and > largest organization of blind people in the > United States, today announced that Mark > Riccobono, executive director of the NFB Jernigan > Institute, has been named a 2011 Forward under 40 > honoree by the Wisconsin Alumni Association. The > Forward under 40 award program honors University > of Wisconsin graduates under age forty who are > making a positive impact on the world. Riccobono > is a 1999 graduate of the University of Wisconsin. > > > > Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National > Federation of the Blind, said: ?We are very > pleased and proud to see Mark Riccobono receive > this tremendous honor from his alma mater. Under > his exemplary leadership of the NFB Jernigan > Institute, countless innovative programs that > tackle critical issues of importance to blind > people have been developed, including science > academies and advocacy programs for blind youth > and initiatives that seek to improve the Braille > literacy rate among blind people both young and > old. He truly exemplifies the NFB motto: > ?changing what it means to be blind.?? > > > > Mark Riccobono said: ?As the executive director > of the first research and training institute on > blindness led by the blind, I have been fortunate > to play a role in many exciting and life-changing > developments for blind people in > America?including getting behind the wheel of a > car equipped with a nonvisual interface that > allows the blind to drive independently. While > we have made much progress, there is still more > to be done. Only 10 percent of blind children > are learning Braille in this country, and this > directly contributes to a 70 percent unemployment > rate among blind people in the United States. I > humbly thank the Wisconsin Alumni Association for > this great honor and hope that it will create > interest in the work of the Federation among my > fellow Wisconsin Alumni as well as those from other great universities.? > > > > Riccobono was the first director of the Wisconsin > Center for the Blind and Visually Impaired, a > state agency that serves Wisconsin?s blind > children. Since coming to the headquarters of > the National Federation of the Blind in 2003, he > has spearheaded many initiatives, including > educational programs designed to engage blind > youth in the fields of science, technology, > engineering, and mathematics. He currently > serves as executive director of the NFB Jernigan Institute. > > > > On January 29, 2011, Riccobono became the first > blind person to drive a street vehicle in public > without the assistance of a sighted person. He > was behind the wheel of a Ford Escape hybrid > equipped with nonvisual technology and > successfully navigated 1.5 miles of the road > course section of the famed track at the Daytona > International Speedway. This successful > demonstration was part of the NFB?s Blind Driver > Challenge? initiative, which challenges > universities, technology developers, and other > interested innovators to establish NFB Blind > Driver Challenge? (BDC) teams?in collaboration > with the NFB?to build interface technologies that > will empower blind people to drive a car independently. > > > > Riccobono and his wife Melissa, who has worked as > a school counselor and serves as president of the > Maryland affiliate of the NFB, live in Baltimore > with their two small children, Austin and Oriana. > > > > For more information about the National > Federation of the Blind, please visit www.nfb.org. > > > > > > ### > > > > About the National Federation of the Blind > > With more than 50,000 members, the National > Federation of the Blind is the largest and most > influential membership organization of blind > people in the United States. The NFB improves > blind people?s lives through advocacy, education, > research, technology, and programs encouraging > independence and self-confidence. It is the > leading force in the blindness field today and > the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 > the NFB opened the National Federation of the > Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and > training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 07:54:50 -0600 > From: "Laura Glowacki" > To: "Discussion list for NABS, National Alliance of Blind Students." > , "National Association of Blind Students > mailing list" > , > Subject: [nabs-l] Fw: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo > Products > Message-ID: <82820B09004C46B195EF641BB53C2B2F at LAURASCOMPUTER> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > This company is selling demo technologies at reduced prices. > Their website is: > > http://smartati.com/contact-us > > Please see below, and the flyer is attached to this email. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Frank Cosatino > To: laura glowacki > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:54 PM > Subject: Fw: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo Products > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Hap Holly > To: Hap Holly > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 3:07 PM > Subject: Fw: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo Products > > > *I'm sending this to my entire mailing list on behalf of my blind > computer guru, Roger Cusson in Maine. Please pass this along to > any 'blind' lists you may be connected with ... or folks that are > using or could use some of this technology.* > > Hap > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Roger R. Cusson > To: 'Hap Holly' > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 2:30 PM > Subject: Save Thousands On Freedom Scientific Demo Products > > > > > Greetings on this fine day, > > As you know, I work with Smart Assistive Technologies, down in > Rochester, NH... > > They wish to move a pretty serious amount of Freedom Scientific > blind/low-vision product down the road!!! > > These are demo pieces, and the savings on these items is at least > 50% off retail... > > They have approached me, and specifically asked if I could put > out the message, that they wish to sell these demo pieces, at a > substantial savings over retail costs... > > If you would please consider passing this message, and its > associated attachment along to folks that might be looking for > what we have on special, that would be much appreciated. > > As I do make some small amount of commission on the sale of these > pieces, if when calling into Smart Assistive Technologies, please > indicate to the staff, that Roger Cusson sent them, in regards to > the sale of these Freedom Scientific demo pieces. > > I appreciate your assistance concerning this matter, and I truly > pray that life is treating you extremely well!!! > > > Respectfully, > > > Roger R., Cusson > Computer Access Specialist > Seeing Hands Enterprises - Lisbon > (207) 353-5007 > Skype Contact: rcusson > > A quote to live by: > "Any program that works perfectly, simply hasn't been tested > properly!" > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Save Thousands on Low-Vision Demo Products from Smart > Assistive Technologies.doc > Type: application/msword > Size: 340480 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > 6193a8bf/attachment.doc> > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 11 > ************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dandrews at visi.com Thu Mar 10 20:26:00 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:26:00 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Technically, I am the list owner. That means, in my book, that I run all technical aspects of the list, and am also the final arbiter of everything. NABS officers have appointed people who monitor the list, and step in when necessary, but to be honest with you, I am not sure who they are at this point, if you are interested ask Arielle. Dave At 05:02 PM 3/9/2011, you wrote: >Dear list, > Speaking of moderation, I have a quick question. Is Dave our only >list moderator? > Best, >Kirt > >On 3/9/11, Darian Smith wrote: > > I totally see your point, Bridgit. > > I think it would be good to find your place where you feel you best > > connect in the organization, and use that as a way to get > > involved in other things. who's to say people don't. But Yes, as > > can be applied to many things; everything in moderation. > > > > On 3/9/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > >> Hello all, > >> > >> I have noticed many of you have had questions about Windows 7 and MS > >> Word 2007 and 2010. On Sunday March 26, the Writers Division will host > >> a conference call discussing how to use JAWS when editing. We will > >> include many aspects of MS Word and how the new versions work with JAWS. > >> > >> We will have a couple of JAWS tech experts as well joining the call. > >> > >> I will send more info for those interested. > >> > >> Bridgit > >> > >> Message: 6 > >> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 23:01:29 -0500 > >> From: > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Subject: [nabs-l] microsoft word questions > >> Message-ID: > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > >> > >> Hi all, > >> This ribon is hard to use. Perhaps there?s shortcuts to get to some > >> features. > >> > >> How can you select a bullet option; I?m sure there?s still circles and > >> squares, and diamonds like in the past version. How do you get to print > >> preview? I can see the layout a little and find this feature helpful to > >> know where the print ends on the page. > >> > >> What is the find and replace command? > >> How do you create a hanging indent? > >> How do you get to the envelope labeling box? Actually I found that > >> after a lot of searching on the ribon. But thought there may be > >> keystrokes to do it. How do you get jaws to announce the color of the > >> font? > >> > >> Thanks. > >> Ashley > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Darian Smith > > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > > > — Robert Byrne > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > From James.Newell at nara.gov Thu Mar 10 20:35:41 2011 From: James.Newell at nara.gov (James Newell) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:35:41 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] DOL and OPM Tool Kit for recruiting, individuals with disabilities Message-ID: The U.S. Department of Labor's Office of Disability Employment Policy posted an online toolkit comprised of resources to assist federal agencies in recruiting, employing and retaining individuals with disabilities. The kit is available at http://www.dol.gov/odep/federal-hire. ODEP, in collaboration with the U.S. Office of Personnel Management, designed a five-step process that agencies can readily follow to ensure an inclusive workplace for employees with disabilities. The steps are: employer training, creating a welcoming environment, recruitment, hiring and retention. Topics include "do's and don'ts" for interviewing, accessibility and accommodations, how to find technical assistance and creating a pipeline of candidates. President Obama issued Executive Order 13548 to establish the federal government, the nation's largest employer, as a model for the employment of individuals with disabilities. The order directs agencies to improve their efforts through increased recruitment, hiring and retention. The toolkit can be found on-line at: http://www.dol.gov/odep/federal-hire/ For more information on how CAP is supporting the Executive Order, please visit: www.tricare.mil/cap. ---------- CAP Questions for CAP? Contact Us STAY CONNECTED: Visit CAP on Facebook Follow DoDCAP on Twitter Visit CAP on YouTube Sign up for CAP email updates SUBSCRIBER SERVICES: Manage Preferences | Delete profile | Help Bookmark and Share ---------- This email was sent to james.newell at nara.gov by Computer/Electronic Accommodations Program: 5111 Leesburg Pike · Falls Church, VA 22041 · 703-681-8813 Powered by GovDelivery -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: a58ae3.gif Type: image/gif Size: 4786 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: a58af3.gif Type: image/gif Size: 1327 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... 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My question though is this. I started using Outlook Express (which was simple enough. Then I got a copy of Microsoft Office 2007 and it updated Outlook Express to Outlook 07. Plus I installed the "instant search" plugin, and now I have no idea how to navigate. Anyone have any idea where I can fine a good tutorial for Outlook 2007 running JAWS 11.00? Thanks, Jorge From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 21:58:02 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 16:58:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6D2A7BA1C0614C159F365CCDAAE83530@Rufus> Arielle, and others, Thank you for a well-written and compelling post. You certainly gave it more thought than I ever meant for my outlandish notion to deserve, but so long as you're entertaining my far-flung ideas, I'll give you a little more analysis to better help you and others understand my rationale. For people to understand my point about divisions, they will need to understand my theory on membership behavior. As technology expands, and as we move further into an age of conveniences, it's only going to become more difficult to motivate people to action and do the grunt work that is necessary to make it possible for such a large organization to accomplish significant tasks. Our generation does not have to fight the tangible battles that our founders did to bring about better conditions. True, things could be better for us today, but it would appear that we have not faced the same deplorable challenges our current leadership faced in their age to do things like entering and graduating from college, things we take for granted today. We live in an era where technology has sufficiently advanced to the point where we can complete assignments with reasonable comfort. In fact, in another post I might elaborate on an argument that for all its advantages, technology may be partially responsible for the persistent unemployment rate among the blind, because it provides a sense of productivity without actually motivating blind people to be productive. In addition to technology, we have a fairly decent set of laws and policies that protect persons with disabilities, and so when faced with glaring adversities, we need only find a group willing to take the issue to court and rectify the wrong. Naturally, there are advantages to this sort of protection, but it also promotes a sense of entitlement among the up and coming generation. Young people know that they do not have to belong or participate in a consumer group to enjoy the privileges that these groups have worked to establish. Positive outcomes can be obtained through apps and lawsuits. What this means in the context of the current discussion is that a lot of people attend conventions to reconnect with people more than they do to actively work toward resolving fundamental challenges. The challenges that are most likely to be appealing are those that, ironically, trace back to technology like the Kindle that would not read or the airport kiosk that will not speak or the car that must one day drive, and even these are challenges we can conveniently use technology to advocate from our homes. Why attend national conventions when one can listen to live streams of the event? Why visit our representatives' district offices to speak on pertinent issues when one can send an e-mail or lift a telephone? As technology continues to catch up to our most basic desires, and even more importantly, as technology allows us to fulfill our need for communication more conveniently, the less urgent it becomes to do things like physically attending national conventions and the less real those fundamental challenges around which conventions are organized become. There is absolutely nothing wrong with human interaction. It's healthy and should be actively sought; however, one has to wonder where to draw the line between doing the work of what blind people need and merely providing a stage for what blind people want. We've seen how conventions have been gradually reduced in length, and so the diminishing time that we do have available amongst ourselves should be put to productive use. In my opinion, this should mean actively brainstorming ways to ensure that all the resolutions that are passed at convention are actually fulfilled or significantly moved along as opposed to constructing what generally amount to be nothing more than position statements on current issues. I think we would achieve this if we collapsed the division meeting schedule from the fanciful to the most relevant. You say that divisions are important first because they "facilitate the mentoring and networking that is such an integral part of what we do." While I am a huge fan of mentoring and networking, I believe both services are met within local chapters and affiliates which do more to meet our integral purpose around the clock than divisions can achieve once or twice a year. To my knowledge, the NFB and ACB are the only organizations that are as thinly spread as they are with their vast menus of associations of this and divisions of that. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I might wonder if the NFB has allowed so many special interest groups to exist because they serve as a distraction when fundamental progress is not achieved, but seriously, do we know of any national organization that in addition to chapters, allows for so many special interest groups? Your second reason for promoting divisions is that they "inform the rest of the organization about what advocacy issues matter and how to tackle them." Again, with strong chapters and affiliates the same can be achieved, perhaps with even better results because they can report on issues from a local perspective. The National Center has the staff and resources to not only monitor but react to developing issues. We do not need e-mail lists to be associated with divisions for there to be e-mail lists. We do not need to water down the convention agenda to allow for division meetings that will cover the same concerns that could be openly debated on the convention floor. In other words, there is no element of uniqueness in either of these two points. If the divisions disappeared tomorrow, the same level of mentorship and networking and advocacy could occur. The National Center could fashion departments around the four or five core issues under which all divisions fall, organize roundtable discussions at conventions to flesh out the current concerns of the day, save a little money by maintaining a tighter convention, and still keep the activities we all love and attend like the Louisiana play, the mock trial, and other favorites. If the various associations still want to exist, they can pay for meeting space to coincide alongside the NFB convention or even pick their own meeting sites and dates completely removed from the convention altogether. The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, the National Association of Hispanic Journalists, and the National PTA are just three examples of people who felt strongly enough about their issues to form their own groups, plan their own conventions and make great strides. One might even argue that separation from the NFB might actually achieve the bonus of attracting more members if only because some people do not come to conventions by virtue of them being hosted by the NFB. To me it would seem that our current divisions are only able to exist because the NFB is able to fund their efforts, and that, to me, smells like baby-sitting. I gave you the scenic tour of my rationale because the discussion originally started in the context of the future of the NFB. In some ways the organization has grown so large as to make the discussion of one item impossible without touching on another, but in other ways the organization has grown so thin as to make its actual size smaller than we may know. My projection is that convention attendance in Orlando will be slightly larger by virtue of the city where the convention is being held. I do not think the attendance rate would be the same if the convention had returned to Dallas for a consecutive year, and what does that really tell you about the organization's productivity? Times are changing, both in terms of how we act and communicate, and if Brice's teacher's observation is correct, there will be differences among blind people themselves. This means we should evaluate the capital of our resources to see where we are performing well and where we are just exhausting efforts as is the case with NFB divisions. Now, having written all that, let me let you in on a secret that I can afford to pass along since my days on the student lists are numbered. The discussions are fantastic, but now that school is behind me, there are too many personal and professional endeavors from which I should not be allowing myself to be so easily distracted! Besides, only a few people will have gotten this far in my rambling, so the secret will not really get out unless you're a snitch. I mean, Let's be serious. You and I know that divisions will not go away just because I think they can be a potential drain on resources. So why bother writing an elaborate case against them? Because it is only through learning how to respond to opposing views that the organization will remain strong. It is far easier to readily agree than it is to coherently disagree. The majority of people who raise opposition to the NFB's way of doing things usually do it from outside the NFB and are almost always morons working with nothing more substantive than hearsay, whereas I can write from firsthand knowledge to hopefully push you to think outside the box in defense of what you believe. Yes, I have my concerns about the future about the NFB, and I genuinely believe that some of our leaders are about as useful as teats on a bull, but I do not really think divisions are as threatening or a waste of time as this post would lead you to believe. I could in fact pull a U turn and argue against my own post line by line with equal conviction. I'm really excited about the Blind Driver Challenge, but last year I was curious to see how people would respond to my challenge that the project is a waste of time and money. In a separate post, and even in the current discussion, I advanced the controversial idea that the NFB will cease to exist in fifty years. I had been hoping for responses a little more vehement than what was said, because while today some of you have argued for why divisions are necessary, tomorrow you may need to argue for why the NFB itself is needed. This may sound extreme, but remember that the ACB was partially born out of some agencies' desire to see the NFB fail. We should not be lulled into presuming that history is not capable of recurring wearing a different outfit and toting the same intention. So, if I can write long posts on both sides of an issue, what do I really believe? I'll let you decide that for yourself. People assume my loyalty to the cause is weak because of the posts I sometimes write. I've never needed anyone's approval to know that I'm a loyal member and would defend the organization when it comes down to the wire. If you follow the NFB philosophy to the letter, you may help the organization stay ahead. If you learn to defend it, you'll help the organization stay there. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 22:00:53 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:00:53 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Dave. I totally forgot to answer this one. I'm not Arielle, nor do I play her on T.V., but I might be able to tell you that... Jedi is the appointed nabs member who takes care of such things, as she is our "list serve chair". However, other nabs board members have been known to step in and take on the role from time to time, when things may get a little crazy on the list (which never happends, right?) Darian On 3/10/11, David Andrews wrote: > Technically, I am the list owner. That means, in > my book, that I run all technical aspects of the > list, and am also the final arbiter of > everything. NABS officers have appointed people > who monitor the list, and step in when necessary, > but to be honest with you, I am not sure who they > are at this point, if you are interested ask Arielle. > > Dave > > At 05:02 PM 3/9/2011, you wrote: >>Dear list, >> Speaking of moderation, I have a quick question. Is Dave our only >>list moderator? >> Best, >>Kirt >> >>On 3/9/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> > I totally see your point, Bridgit. >> > I think it would be good to find your place where you feel you best >> > connect in the organization, and use that as a way to get >> > involved in other things. who's to say people don't. But Yes, as >> > can be applied to many things; everything in moderation. >> > >> > On 3/9/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> >> Hello all, >> >> >> >> I have noticed many of you have had questions about Windows 7 and MS >> >> Word 2007 and 2010. On Sunday March 26, the Writers Division will host >> >> a conference call discussing how to use JAWS when editing. We will >> >> include many aspects of MS Word and how the new versions work with >> >> JAWS. >> >> >> >> We will have a couple of JAWS tech experts as well joining the call. >> >> >> >> I will send more info for those interested. >> >> >> >> Bridgit >> >> >> >> Message: 6 >> >> Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2011 23:01:29 -0500 >> >> From: >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] microsoft word questions >> >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> >> >> Hi all, >> >> This ribon is hard to use. Perhaps there?s shortcuts to get to some >> >> features. >> >> >> >> How can you select a bullet option; I?m sure there?s still circles and >> >> squares, and diamonds like in the past version. How do you get to print >> >> preview? I can see the layout a little and find this feature helpful to >> >> know where the print ends on the page. >> >> >> >> What is the find and replace command? >> >> How do you create a hanging indent? >> >> How do you get to the envelope labeling box? Actually I found that >> >> after a lot of searching on the ribon. But thought there may be >> >> keystrokes to do it. How do you get jaws to announce the color of the >> >> font? >> >> >> >> Thanks. >> >> Ashley >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Darian Smith >> > Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> > >> > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> > >> > — Robert Byrne >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 10 22:36:04 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:36:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions In-Reply-To: <6D2A7BA1C0614C159F365CCDAAE83530@Rufus> References: <6D2A7BA1C0614C159F365CCDAAE83530@Rufus> Message-ID: Joe, Well, I do hope you stay despite your personal and professional commitments; you lend a perspective from an insider's view since you were more involved once in the student division. I do agree with you that many divisions only exist because NFB funds their efforts. It would be great if they fundraised more and did more on their own within the context of the NFB constitution. I also agree that technology fulfills a need for communication, and continues to grow with the times. More and more options are available to read and send emails on the go. You raise some wonderful points and if I addressed them all, this email would be a book. I'll counter argue one point. Nfb divisions need to exist for the networking and mentoring that occurs with similar minded people. Students are a minority and our issues may get lost if we didn't have a collective voice and division to bring them to the national table. I enjoyed going to the student seminars as part of washington seminar. I got a lot out of the speeches for encouragement and tips on college success. In many areas of the state chapters do not exist or are not active. Even if they exist, they have older working or retired adults who do not think of student issues and frustrations. So divisions fill a need that I see is not met elsewhere in nfb. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 4:58 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Arielle, and others, Thank you for a well-written and compelling post. You certainly gave it more thought than I ever meant for my outlandish notion to deserve, but so long as you're entertaining my far-flung ideas, I'll give you a little more analysis to better help you and others understand my rationale. For people to understand my point about divisions, they will need to understand my theory on membership behavior. As technology expands, and as we move further into an age of conveniences, it's only going to become more difficult to motivate people to action and do the grunt work that is necessary to make it possible for such a large organization to accomplish significant tasks. Our generation does not have to fight the tangible battles that our founders did to bring about better conditions. True, things could be better for us today, but it would appear that we have not faced the same deplorable challenges our current leadership faced in their age to do things like entering and graduating from college, things we take for granted today. We live in an era where technology has sufficiently advanced to the point where we can complete assignments with reasonable comfort. In fact, in another post I might elaborate on an argument that for all its advantages, technology may be partially responsible for the persistent unemployment rate among the blind, because it provides a sense of productivity without actually motivating blind people to be productive. In addition to technology, we have a fairly decent set of laws and policies that protect persons with disabilities, and so when faced with glaring adversities, we need only find a group willing to take the issue to court and rectify the wrong. Naturally, there are advantages to this sort of protection, but it also promotes a sense of entitlement among the up and coming generation. Young people know that they do not have to belong or participate in a consumer group to enjoy the privileges that these groups have worked to establish. Positive outcomes can be obtained through apps and lawsuits. What this means in the context of the current discussion is that a lot of people attend conventions to reconnect with people more than they do to actively work toward resolving fundamental challenges. The challenges that are most likely to be appealing are those that, ironically, trace back to technology like the Kindle that would not read or the airport kiosk that will not speak or the car that must one day drive, and even these are challenges we can conveniently use technology to advocate from our homes. Why attend national conventions when one can listen to live streams of the event? Why visit our representatives' district offices to speak on pertinent issues when one can send an e-mail or lift a telephone? As technology continues to catch up to our most basic desires, and even more importantly, as technology allows us to fulfill our need for communication more conveniently, the less urgent it becomes to do things like physically attending national conventions and the less real those fundamental challenges around which conventions are organized become. There is absolutely nothing wrong with human interaction. It's healthy and should be actively sought; however, one has to wonder where to draw the line between doing the work of what blind people need and merely providing a stage for what blind people want. We've seen how conventions have been gradually reduced in length, and so the diminishing time that we do have available amongst ourselves should be put to productive use. In my opinion, this should mean actively brainstorming ways to ensure that all the resolutions that are passed at convention are actually fulfilled or significantly moved along as opposed to constructing what generally amount to be nothing more than position statements on current issues. I think we would achieve this if we collapsed the division meeting schedule from the fanciful to the most relevant. You say that divisions are important first because they "facilitate the mentoring and networking that is such an integral part of what we do." While I am a huge fan of mentoring and networking, I believe both services are met within local chapters and affiliates which do more to meet our integral purpose around the clock than divisions can achieve once or twice a year. To my knowledge, the NFB and ACB are the only organizations that are as thinly spread as they are with their vast menus of associations of this and divisions of that. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I might wonder if the NFB has allowed so many special interest groups to exist because they serve as a distraction when fundamental progress is not achieved, but seriously, do we know of any national organization that in addition to chapters, allows for so many special interest groups? Your second reason for promoting divisions is that they "inform the rest of the organization about what advocacy issues matter and how to tackle them." Again, with strong chapters and affiliates the same can be achieved, perhaps with even better results because they can report on issues from a local perspective. The National Center has the staff and resources to not only monitor but react to developing issues. We do not need e-mail lists to be associated with divisions for there to be e-mail lists. We do not need to water down the convention agenda to allow for division meetings that will cover the same concerns that could be openly debated on the convention floor. In other words, there is no element of uniqueness in either of these two points. If the divisions disappeared tomorrow, the same level of mentorship and networking and advocacy could occur. The National Center could fashion departments around the four or five core issues under which all divisions fall, organize roundtable discussions at conventions to flesh out the current concerns of the day, save a little money by maintaining a tighter convention, and still keep the activities we all love and attend like the Louisiana play, the mock trial, and other favorites. If the various associations still want to exist, they can pay for meeting space to coincide alongside the NFB convention or even pick their own meeting sites and dates completely removed from the convention altogether. The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, the National Association of Hispanic Journalists, and the National PTA are just three examples of people who felt strongly enough about their issues to form their own groups, plan their own conventions and make great strides. One might even argue that separation from the NFB might actually achieve the bonus of attracting more members if only because some people do not come to conventions by virtue of them being hosted by the NFB. To me it would seem that our current divisions are only able to exist because the NFB is able to fund their efforts, and that, to me, smells like baby-sitting. I gave you the scenic tour of my rationale because the discussion originally started in the context of the future of the NFB. In some ways the organization has grown so large as to make the discussion of one item impossible without touching on another, but in other ways the organization has grown so thin as to make its actual size smaller than we may know. My projection is that convention attendance in Orlando will be slightly larger by virtue of the city where the convention is being held. I do not think the attendance rate would be the same if the convention had returned to Dallas for a consecutive year, and what does that really tell you about the organization's productivity? Times are changing, both in terms of how we act and communicate, and if Brice's teacher's observation is correct, there will be differences among blind people themselves. This means we should evaluate the capital of our resources to see where we are performing well and where we are just exhausting efforts as is the case with NFB divisions. Now, having written all that, let me let you in on a secret that I can afford to pass along since my days on the student lists are numbered. The discussions are fantastic, but now that school is behind me, there are too many personal and professional endeavors from which I should not be allowing myself to be so easily distracted! Besides, only a few people will have gotten this far in my rambling, so the secret will not really get out unless you're a snitch. I mean, Let's be serious. You and I know that divisions will not go away just because I think they can be a potential drain on resources. So why bother writing an elaborate case against them? Because it is only through learning how to respond to opposing views that the organization will remain strong. It is far easier to readily agree than it is to coherently disagree. The majority of people who raise opposition to the NFB's way of doing things usually do it from outside the NFB and are almost always morons working with nothing more substantive than hearsay, whereas I can write from firsthand knowledge to hopefully push you to think outside the box in defense of what you believe. Yes, I have my concerns about the future about the NFB, and I genuinely believe that some of our leaders are about as useful as teats on a bull, but I do not really think divisions are as threatening or a waste of time as this post would lead you to believe. I could in fact pull a U turn and argue against my own post line by line with equal conviction. I'm really excited about the Blind Driver Challenge, but last year I was curious to see how people would respond to my challenge that the project is a waste of time and money. In a separate post, and even in the current discussion, I advanced the controversial idea that the NFB will cease to exist in fifty years. I had been hoping for responses a little more vehement than what was said, because while today some of you have argued for why divisions are necessary, tomorrow you may need to argue for why the NFB itself is needed. This may sound extreme, but remember that the ACB was partially born out of some agencies' desire to see the NFB fail. We should not be lulled into presuming that history is not capable of recurring wearing a different outfit and toting the same intention. So, if I can write long posts on both sides of an issue, what do I really believe? I'll let you decide that for yourself. People assume my loyalty to the cause is weak because of the posts I sometimes write. I've never needed anyone's approval to know that I'm a loyal member and would defend the organization when it comes down to the wire. If you follow the NFB philosophy to the letter, you may help the organization stay ahead. If you learn to defend it, you'll help the organization stay there. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 22:36:48 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:36:48 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions In-Reply-To: <6D2A7BA1C0614C159F365CCDAAE83530@Rufus> References: <6D2A7BA1C0614C159F365CCDAAE83530@Rufus> Message-ID: Joe, you write too much! *smile* Seriously, all. Joe's point about chapters and the work they can do is the only thing that really really jumped out at me. Maybe the reason it did was because I actually need to get on with my studying and other matters of the day that I've been multi- tasking with thus far. Chapters idealy should do the work of mentoring, but can you counthow many chapters actually do make it a point to do this? I suspect you could, and there would be the problem. I know that some do it, but for the strong chapters that may exist, there are plenty of weak ones. What I mean, is that for every chapter that meets, plans activities and actually does them, there are probably five or six that either don't plan anything, plan and don't follow through, or don't meet so they can succeed or fail at the other two. I'm not suggesting (nor do I think anyone is) that divisions should be a substitute for what should happen on the state level, local level, or what does happen on the national level at convention. What I would suggest, as is my belief, is that if divisions are doing their job, they will support the work of the organization, and of chapters (depending on if the division is a state division or a national division). Here's what I mean; On the national level, divisions connect and contextualize information to people, helping bring people into the greater organization. As well, those national divisions help connect people to affiliates when they can, either formally, or informally, as nabs does try to do. on the state level, state divisions should connect people to chapters, and chapters to divisions, therefore strenthening the collective power and ability for those affiliates to mobilize, mentor, create, and overall do the good work that needs to be done. I'm not sure that made sense... you be the judge. Best, Darian On 3/10/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Arielle, and others, > > Thank you for a well-written and compelling post. You certainly gave it > more thought than I ever meant for my outlandish notion to deserve, but so > long as you're entertaining my far-flung ideas, I'll give you a little more > analysis to better help you and others understand my rationale. > > For people to understand my point about divisions, they will need to > understand my theory on membership behavior. As technology expands, and as > we move further into an age of conveniences, it's only going to become more > difficult to motivate people to action and do the grunt work that is > necessary to make it possible for such a large organization to accomplish > significant tasks. Our generation does not have to fight the tangible > battles that our founders did to bring about better conditions. True, > things could be better for us today, but it would appear that we have not > faced the same deplorable challenges our current leadership faced in their > age to do things like entering and graduating from college, things we take > for granted today. We live in an era where technology has sufficiently > advanced to the point where we can complete assignments with reasonable > comfort. In fact, in another post I might elaborate on an argument that for > all its advantages, technology may be partially responsible for the > persistent unemployment rate among the blind, because it provides a sense of > productivity without actually motivating blind people to be productive. In > addition to technology, we have a fairly decent set of laws and policies > that protect persons with disabilities, and so when faced with glaring > adversities, we need only find a group willing to take the issue to court > and rectify the wrong. Naturally, there are advantages to this sort of > protection, but it also promotes a sense of entitlement among the up and > coming generation. Young people know that they do not have to belong or > participate in a consumer group to enjoy the privileges that these groups > have worked to establish. Positive outcomes can be obtained through apps > and lawsuits. > > What this means in the context of the current discussion is that a lot of > people attend conventions to reconnect with people more than they do to > actively work toward resolving fundamental challenges. The challenges that > are most likely to be appealing are those that, ironically, trace back to > technology like the Kindle that would not read or the airport kiosk that > will not speak or the car that must one day drive, and even these are > challenges we can conveniently use technology to advocate from our homes. > Why attend national conventions when one can listen to live streams of the > event? Why visit our representatives' district offices to speak on > pertinent issues when one can send an e-mail or lift a telephone? As > technology continues to catch up to our most basic desires, and even more > importantly, as technology allows us to fulfill our need for communication > more conveniently, the less urgent it becomes to do things like physically > attending national conventions and the less real those fundamental > challenges around which conventions are organized become. > > There is absolutely nothing wrong with human interaction. It's healthy and > should be actively sought; however, one has to wonder where to draw the line > between doing the work of what blind people need and merely providing a > stage for what blind people want. We've seen how conventions have been > gradually reduced in length, and so the diminishing time that we do have > available amongst ourselves should be put to productive use. In my opinion, > this should mean actively brainstorming ways to ensure that all the > resolutions that are passed at convention are actually fulfilled or > significantly moved along as opposed to constructing what generally amount > to be nothing more than position statements on current issues. I think we > would achieve this if we collapsed the division meeting schedule from the > fanciful to the most relevant. > > You say that divisions are important first because they "facilitate the > mentoring and networking that is such an integral part of what we do." > While I am a huge fan of mentoring and networking, I believe both services > are met within local chapters and affiliates which do more to meet our > integral purpose around the clock than divisions can achieve once or twice a > year. To my knowledge, the NFB and ACB are the only organizations that are > as thinly spread as they are with their vast menus of associations of this > and divisions of that. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I might wonder if > the NFB has allowed so many special interest groups to exist because they > serve as a distraction when fundamental progress is not achieved, but > seriously, do we know of any national organization that in addition to > chapters, allows for so many special interest groups? > > Your second reason for promoting divisions is that they "inform the rest of > the organization about what advocacy issues matter and how to tackle them." > Again, with strong chapters and affiliates the same can be achieved, perhaps > with even better results because they can report on issues from a local > perspective. The National Center has the staff and resources to not only > monitor but react to developing issues. We do not need e-mail lists to be > associated with divisions for there to be e-mail lists. We do not need to > water down the convention agenda to allow for division meetings that will > cover the same concerns that could be openly debated on the convention > floor. > > In other words, there is no element of uniqueness in either of these two > points. If the divisions disappeared tomorrow, the same level of mentorship > and networking and advocacy could occur. The National Center could fashion > departments around the four or five core issues under which all divisions > fall, organize roundtable discussions at conventions to flesh out the > current concerns of the day, save a little money by maintaining a tighter > convention, and still keep the activities we all love and attend like the > Louisiana play, the mock trial, and other favorites. > > If the various associations still want to exist, they can pay for meeting > space to coincide alongside the NFB convention or even pick their own > meeting sites and dates completely removed from the convention altogether. > The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, the National Association > of Hispanic Journalists, and the National PTA are just three examples of > people who felt strongly enough about their issues to form their own groups, > plan their own conventions and make great strides. One might even argue > that separation from the NFB might actually achieve the bonus of attracting > more members if only because some people do not come to conventions by > virtue of them being hosted by the NFB. To me it would seem that our > current divisions are only able to exist because the NFB is able to fund > their efforts, and that, to me, smells like baby-sitting. > > I gave you the scenic tour of my rationale because the discussion originally > started in the context of the future of the NFB. In some ways the > organization has grown so large as to make the discussion of one item > impossible without touching on another, but in other ways the organization > has grown so thin as to make its actual size smaller than we may know. My > projection is that convention attendance in Orlando will be slightly larger > by virtue of the city where the convention is being held. I do not think > the attendance rate would be the same if the convention had returned to > Dallas for a consecutive year, and what does that really tell you about the > organization's productivity? Times are changing, both in terms of how we > act and communicate, and if Brice's teacher's observation is correct, there > will be differences among blind people themselves. This means we should > evaluate the capital of our resources to see where we are performing well > and where we are just exhausting efforts as is the case with NFB divisions. > > Now, having written all that, let me let you in on a secret that I can > afford to pass along since my days on the student lists are numbered. The > discussions are fantastic, but now that school is behind me, there are too > many personal and professional endeavors from which I should not be allowing > myself to be so easily distracted! Besides, only a few people will have > gotten this far in my rambling, so the secret will not really get out unless > you're a snitch. > > I mean, Let's be serious. You and I know that divisions will not go away > just because I think they can be a potential drain on resources. So why > bother writing an elaborate case against them? Because it is only through > learning how to respond to opposing views that the organization will remain > strong. It is far easier to readily agree than it is to coherently > disagree. The majority of people who raise opposition to the NFB's way of > doing things usually do it from outside the NFB and are almost always morons > working with nothing more substantive than hearsay, whereas I can write from > firsthand knowledge to hopefully push you to think outside the box in > defense of what you believe. Yes, I have my concerns about the future about > the NFB, and I genuinely believe that some of our leaders are about as > useful as teats on a bull, but I do not really think divisions are as > threatening or a waste of time as this post would lead you to believe. I > could in fact pull a U turn and argue against my own post line by line with > equal conviction. I'm really excited about the Blind Driver Challenge, but > last year I was curious to see how people would respond to my challenge that > the project is a waste of time and money. In a separate post, and even in > the current discussion, I advanced the controversial idea that the NFB will > cease to exist in fifty years. I had been hoping for responses a little > more vehement than what was said, because while today some of you have > argued for why divisions are necessary, tomorrow you may need to argue for > why the NFB itself is needed. This may sound extreme, but remember that the > ACB was partially born out of some agencies' desire to see the NFB fail. We > should not be lulled into presuming that history is not capable of recurring > wearing a different outfit and toting the same intention. > > So, if I can write long posts on both sides of an issue, what do I really > believe? I'll let you decide that for yourself. People assume my loyalty > to the cause is weak because of the posts I sometimes write. I've never > needed anyone's approval to know that I'm a loyal member and would defend > the organization when it comes down to the wire. If you follow the NFB > philosophy to the letter, you may help the organization stay ahead. If you > learn to defend it, you'll help the organization stay there. > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 23:04:17 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:04:17 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Save AmeriCorps - Call on March 15th In-Reply-To: <8CDAD8CFAAA5C08-166C-22801@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com> References: <172856A8820C42FF939DC0F2910B0FF2@ym.local> <8CDAD8CFAAA5C08-166C-22801@webmail-m052.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: As an AmeriCorps alum, I am sharing this with you folks. I am sure you kno that national service via government funded programs is in serious trouble (as is about everything right about now). AmeriCorps programs are a huge deal and help many people, organizations and local governments/cities. As well, I'm sure most colleges have some form ofAmeriCorps program on campus. Well, these things may go, and go soon/fast. As a blind person, this was a great way, and probably the only way I could give back to my country and not be involved in the military. This is a messageI came upon, and wanted to share. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Darian Smith Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:52:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fwd: Save AmeriCorps - Call on March 15th To: dsmithnfb at gmail.com -----Original Message----- From: saveamericorps To: ds94124 Sent: Thu, Mar 10, 2011 2:02 pm Subject: Save AmeriCorps - Call on March 15th Hi Darian, OnTuesday,March 15th, we are asking you, your friends, your family, your neighbors,the milk man, and anyone else you can think of to make a call toSaveService in America! Help us get the attention of the entire Senate byoverwhelming their offices with phone calls asking them to support AmeriCorpsand keep national service alive in America! Congresshas passed a short-term spending bill that will avert a federal governmentshutdown for two weeks. Before March 18th, Congress must reach a compromise onthe FY11 budget. As you know, the House already voted to eliminate AmeriCorpswhen they passed H.R. 1. This week, the Senate weighedin: the vote on H.R. 1 and on the Democratic alternative failed. Now, seriousnegotiations will follow, as the House and Senate try to make the toughdecisions and find common ground. The question is: will the FY11 budgetagreement fund AmeriCorps and Corporation for National and Community Service? Thatis why, onMarch 15th, we are going to flood their offices with calls telling them tosupport AmeriCorps and service. The best part is, you don't even have to takeoff from work for this! You can locate your Senators hereand find the phone number to their office. When you call, simply tell them yousupport AmeriCorps, what it does for the country, and that Congress should keepit funded in the next year.Your voice matters! Youcan also continue to help support service by submitting your personal testimonialsof service. We're preparing a collection of these to give tothe Senate. Our best stories will show how national service has shaped andchanged the U.S. for the better for the last 45 years and cutting it now wouldbe a terrible mistake. For those who have already contributed stories, thankyou! For those who haven't, now is your chance to share! That'sall for now, but keep following us onFacebookandTwitterforupdates. Keep on the great work and don'tforget to call your Senator on March 15th and tell them to Save Service! Serve On! The AmeriCorps Alums Team Support the fight to keep AmeriCorps going strong.Donate. 600 Means Street, Ste. 210 | Atlanta, GA 30318  Phone: 202.729.8186 | Fax:202.729.8100 This email was sent to 'ds94124 at aol.com' from AmeriCorps Alums. If youwish to stop receiving email from us, you can simply remove yourself byvisiting: http://www.americorpsalums.org/general/opt.asp?e=ds94124 at aol.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 23:56:30 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:56:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions In-Reply-To: References: <6D2A7BA1C0614C159F365CCDAAE83530@Rufus> Message-ID: Darian, Oh, come on now. Just because I admitted I was okay with divisions does not mean I advocated divisions should supplement or even replace local chapters. If I were to rank them, local chapters would absolutely be at the top of the priority list for several reasons. First, they give you a greater frequency to see your fellow members. Second, they are ultimately the organizations that carry our message to the greater community. Third, it's because chapters are mostly run by older people that young people should get in there and learn everything they can about why things are the way they are from these veterans, and finally, chapters provide the best perspective to learn about leadership skills you cannot readily achieve from national divisions. Where as divisions might be considered the arms of the organization, never doubt that the heart of the NFB lies in its chapters, and if things like poor follow-through, lack of planning or lack of organization are keeping students from investigating their local chapters, you should get in their and change it into what you think a smooth chapter should operate like. Students usually have a million reasons not to attend chapter meetings, but when you leave school, life only gets more demanding. If you are not motivated now, you will not feel compelled later, and the middle age gap that appears to have filled the NFB will continue to prevail. I won't be a hypocrite and tell you I am an avid participant of my local chapter. I stopped attending after my work and school schedule no longer allowed it, but then again, I'm not claiming to be the hard working member I once was either. I'll come back eventually in all my controversial glory, and when I do, it won't be to find out how to help a division or even an affiliate board. It'll be how to strengthen my local chapter, and if one doesn't exist, it'll be to set up the best damn chapter that ever did breathe. Meanwhile, I hope to do what I can to help the NFB by way of my small business. See? I can, sometimes, write shorter posts. LOL Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 01:04:39 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:04:39 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions In-Reply-To: References: <6D2A7BA1C0614C159F365CCDAAE83530@Rufus> Message-ID: Lol of course, I honestly do believe everything in it's place, and find your place within those places. If you can get involved in a local chapter, then please do. I think that with younger members getting involved in the organization, it's a give and take type of thing, in that newer members should be as open to teaching and learning as older members should be. Sometimes the politics in state affiliates and in chapters (often they play on each other) can drive younger folks away. These are the folks, that see all that is wrong in society and think " why are we fighting over [these things], when [these things] are the root of the whole problem?" And this brings us back to what seems to be an age old question. How can you build new rooms onto an existing house when you are not sure that that house can withstand the new construction? I think you get the idea, and with everything that we do, we want to respect what has been, create the new, and marry the both when possible. On 3/10/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Darian, > > Oh, come on now. Just because I admitted I was okay with divisions does not > mean I advocated divisions should supplement or even replace local chapters. > If I were to rank them, local chapters would absolutely be at the top of the > priority list for several reasons. First, they give you a greater frequency > to see your fellow members. Second, they are ultimately the organizations > that carry our message to the greater community. Third, it's because > chapters are mostly run by older people that young people should get in > there and learn everything they can about why things are the way they are > from these veterans, and finally, chapters provide the best perspective to > learn about leadership skills you cannot readily achieve from national > divisions. Where as divisions might be considered the arms of the > organization, never doubt that the heart of the NFB lies in its chapters, > and if things like poor follow-through, lack of planning or lack of > organization are keeping students from investigating their local chapters, > you should get in their and change it into what you think a smooth chapter > should operate like. Students usually have a million reasons not to attend > chapter meetings, but when you leave school, life only gets more demanding. > If you are not motivated now, you will not feel compelled later, and the > middle age gap that appears to have filled the NFB will continue to prevail. > I won't be a hypocrite and tell you I am an avid participant of my local > chapter. I stopped attending after my work and school schedule no longer > allowed it, but then again, I'm not claiming to be the hard working member I > once was either. I'll come back eventually in all my controversial glory, > and when I do, it won't be to find out how to help a division or even an > affiliate board. It'll be how to strengthen my local chapter, and if one > doesn't exist, it'll be to set up the best damn chapter that ever did > breathe. Meanwhile, I hope to do what I can to help the NFB by way of my > small business. See? I can, sometimes, write shorter posts. LOL > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Mar 11 01:52:02 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:52:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions In-Reply-To: References: <6D2A7BA1C0614C159F365CCDAAE83530@Rufus> Message-ID: Yep, young folks are driven away by politics or something. For instance in my area there are two chapters near me. None of them have young members; I believe Corbb attended Potomac chapter but that's the only young one I know about. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Darian Smith Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 8:04 PM To: jsorozco at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Lol of course, I honestly do believe everything in it's place, and find your place within those places. If you can get involved in a local chapter, then please do. I think that with younger members getting involved in the organization, it's a give and take type of thing, in that newer members should be as open to teaching and learning as older members should be. Sometimes the politics in state affiliates and in chapters (often they play on each other) can drive younger folks away. These are the folks, that see all that is wrong in society and think " why are we fighting over [these things], when [these things] are the root of the whole problem?" And this brings us back to what seems to be an age old question. How can you build new rooms onto an existing house when you are not sure that that house can withstand the new construction? I think you get the idea, and with everything that we do, we want to respect what has been, create the new, and marry the both when possible. On 3/10/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Darian, > > Oh, come on now. Just because I admitted I was okay with divisions does > not > mean I advocated divisions should supplement or even replace local > chapters. > If I were to rank them, local chapters would absolutely be at the top of > the > priority list for several reasons. First, they give you a greater > frequency > to see your fellow members. Second, they are ultimately the organizations > that carry our message to the greater community. Third, it's because > chapters are mostly run by older people that young people should get in > there and learn everything they can about why things are the way they are > from these veterans, and finally, chapters provide the best perspective to > learn about leadership skills you cannot readily achieve from national > divisions. Where as divisions might be considered the arms of the > organization, never doubt that the heart of the NFB lies in its chapters, > and if things like poor follow-through, lack of planning or lack of > organization are keeping students from investigating their local chapters, > you should get in their and change it into what you think a smooth chapter > should operate like. Students usually have a million reasons not to > attend > chapter meetings, but when you leave school, life only gets more > demanding. > If you are not motivated now, you will not feel compelled later, and the > middle age gap that appears to have filled the NFB will continue to > prevail. > I won't be a hypocrite and tell you I am an avid participant of my local > chapter. I stopped attending after my work and school schedule no longer > allowed it, but then again, I'm not claiming to be the hard working member > I > once was either. I'll come back eventually in all my controversial glory, > and when I do, it won't be to find out how to help a division or even an > affiliate board. It'll be how to strengthen my local chapter, and if one > doesn't exist, it'll be to set up the best damn chapter that ever did > breathe. Meanwhile, I hope to do what I can to help the NFB by way of my > small business. See? I can, sometimes, write shorter posts. LOL > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Mar 11 01:52:56 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:52:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions In-Reply-To: References: <6D2A7BA1C0614C159F365CCDAAE83530@Rufus> Message-ID: Darion, why did you use brackets, instead of parentheses? On 3/10/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Lol of course, > I honestly do believe everything in it's place, and find your place > within those places. > > If you can get involved in a local chapter, then please do. I think > that with younger members getting involved in the organization, it's a > give and take type of thing, in that newer members should be as > open to teaching and learning as older members should be. Sometimes > the politics in state affiliates and in chapters (often they play on > each other) can drive younger folks away. These are the folks, that > see all that is wrong in society and think " why are we fighting over > [these things], when [these things] are the root of the whole > problem?" > And this brings us back to what seems to be an age old question. > How can you build new rooms onto an existing house when you are > not sure that that house can withstand the new construction? > I think you get the idea, and with everything that we do, we want > to respect what has been, create the new, and marry the both when > possible. > > > On 3/10/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Darian, >> >> Oh, come on now. Just because I admitted I was okay with divisions does >> not >> mean I advocated divisions should supplement or even replace local >> chapters. >> If I were to rank them, local chapters would absolutely be at the top of >> the >> priority list for several reasons. First, they give you a greater >> frequency >> to see your fellow members. Second, they are ultimately the organizations >> that carry our message to the greater community. Third, it's because >> chapters are mostly run by older people that young people should get in >> there and learn everything they can about why things are the way they are >> from these veterans, and finally, chapters provide the best perspective to >> learn about leadership skills you cannot readily achieve from national >> divisions. Where as divisions might be considered the arms of the >> organization, never doubt that the heart of the NFB lies in its chapters, >> and if things like poor follow-through, lack of planning or lack of >> organization are keeping students from investigating their local chapters, >> you should get in their and change it into what you think a smooth chapter >> should operate like. Students usually have a million reasons not to >> attend >> chapter meetings, but when you leave school, life only gets more >> demanding. >> If you are not motivated now, you will not feel compelled later, and the >> middle age gap that appears to have filled the NFB will continue to >> prevail. >> I won't be a hypocrite and tell you I am an avid participant of my local >> chapter. I stopped attending after my work and school schedule no longer >> allowed it, but then again, I'm not claiming to be the hard working member >> I >> once was either. I'll come back eventually in all my controversial glory, >> and when I do, it won't be to find out how to help a division or even an >> affiliate board. It'll be how to strengthen my local chapter, and if one >> doesn't exist, it'll be to set up the best damn chapter that ever did >> breathe. Meanwhile, I hope to do what I can to help the NFB by way of my >> small business. See? I can, sometimes, write shorter posts. LOL >> >> Best, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From trillian551 at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 04:48:32 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Nary Fernandez) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 23:48:32 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] MAC and Gmail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <85E92010-264D-4533-9695-F4EAFE340E19@gmail.com> How do i sync my address book? I still havent mastered the mail app. Thanks. Mary Fernandez Sent from my iPhone On Mar 10, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > The most efficient way of using gmail is through the mail app included in Mac os x. If you sink your gmail address book with your Mac, email addresses will complete themselves when typing etc. This is very simple to do and it works a lot better than the gmail site, but it only makes sense if you are using your own Mac and not somebody else's. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 10, 2011, at 12:21 PM, Mary Fernandez wrote: > >> Hi All, >> So I have a mac question. Usually when you start typing a name in >> gmail it will automatically finish the address. Is there anyway to do >> that on a mac? When i use safari with gmail, it won't let me >> automatically complete the name. >> Thanks. >> >> >> -- >> Mary Fernandez >> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students >> Emory University 2012 >> P.O. Box 123056 >> Atlanta Ga. >> 30322 >> Phone: 732-857-7004 >> >> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much >> rather you weren't doing it." >> Terry Pratchett >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 18:49:49 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 10:49:49 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [blindkid] Fwd: [RSA_CONSUMER_ADVOCACY_ORGS] FW: ADA National Network launches Disability Rights Web Course In-Reply-To: <65669.65057.qm@smtp103.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <65669.65057.qm@smtp103.vzn.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: for your information ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Carol Castellano Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:17:24 -0500 Subject: [blindkid] Fwd: [RSA_CONSUMER_ADVOCACY_ORGS] FW: ADA National Network launches Disability Rights Web Course To: blindkid at nfbnet.org Hi Everyone, I am passing along this information about disability law. Unfortunately, the course does not cover the IDEA, but the laws that it DOES cover might also be of interest. Carol Carol Castellano Director of Programs National Organization of Parents of Blind Children 973-377-0976 carol_castellano at verizon.net www.nopbc.org Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:04:19 -0600 >From: "Doney, Joseph" >Subject: [RSA_CONSUMER_ADVOCACY_ORGS] FW: ADA National Network launches > Disability Rights Web Course >Comments: cc: "Ruttledge, Lynnae" >To: RSA_CONSUMER_ADVOCACY_ORGS at LISTSERV.ED.GOV > >Please share this information with colleagues and partners. > >Thanks! > >Lynnae M. Ruttledge >Commissioner >Rehabilitation Services Administration = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /> > > > > >ADA National Network Logo > > >. > > >Disability >Rights >Course > >A free, self-paced webcourse available 24/7 that provides an >overview of disability rights laws. The course takes approximately 2 >hours and includes real life scenarios, quizzes and a final exam. > > > >Upon completion of this course, you will: > * Have a general understanding of the major federal disability > rights laws (the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Fair Housing > Act, Section 504 of the Rehabilitation Act and the Air Carrier Access Act) > * Be able to assess what laws apply in different discrimination scenarios > * Have resources for help and information about disability rights laws > > > > >graphic of computer >Continuing Education Credits: > * Commission on Rehabilitation Counselor Certification (CRCC): 2 > credit hours > > >Who should take this course: > * People with disabilities > * Advocates for people with disabilities > * Law students > * Rehabilitation counselors > * Social service providers > * Anyone with an interest in disability rights laws > > > >www.DisabilityRightsCourse.org > > > > >Questions about the course: >Contact the New England ADA Center >elearning at NewEnglandADA.org >617-695-0085 voice/tty >800-949-4232 voice/tty (CT, MA, ME, NH, RI, VT) > >Questions about the ADA: > >Contact your regional ADA Center > >800-949-4232 voice/tty > >www.adata.org > > > > > > >ADA National Network Logo >Developed by the staff of the >DBTAC >- New England ADA Center, a project >of the Institute for Human Centered Design. The New >England ADA Center is part of the ADA National Network. > >Funded by a grant from the U.S. Department of Education through the >National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research. Grant >number H133A060092 > > > > _______________________________________________ blindkid mailing list blindkid at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/blindkid_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for blindkid: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/blindkid_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 19:16:05 2011 From: nfbcsoutreach at gmail.com (community service Outreach) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 11:16:05 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] Community Service meeting Sunday, feb 13. Message-ID: Hi everyone. It's time for another community service conference call! We will have much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss the division - planning process, and our plans for national convention. As a part of those plans, we will discuss a possible convention service project. We will also have a discussion of effective skills blind people use to work with youth . Hope you're on the call. When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST Where: Call 218.339.3600 Passcode: 808277 From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Mar 11 19:40:56 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:40:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] ms word comments Message-ID: <7BC31F400CDD48738DA994DCADE6D5CD@OwnerPC> Hi all, How can you read comments in word documents? My professor uses them and comments are written on the side. I have jaws 12 and a the latest word. From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Mar 11 19:51:08 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:51:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] ms word comments In-Reply-To: <7BC31F400CDD48738DA994DCADE6D5CD@OwnerPC> References: <7BC31F400CDD48738DA994DCADE6D5CD@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, Jaws should read the comments. Sometimes, they're read, together with the phrases which your professor comments about. Blessings, Joshua On 3/11/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > How can you read comments in word documents? My professor uses them and > comments are written on the side. > I have jaws 12 and a the latest word. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 19:54:36 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 13:54:36 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Message-ID: <002301cbe026$26ebd580$74c38080$@com> Ashley, I attend the Potomac chapter, so do Mike and CJ Fish, Jessica Kostiew and Sean McMan. All 20 somethings. Just a point of information. Sean From ignasicambra at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 19:55:57 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 14:55:57 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] MAC and Gmail In-Reply-To: <85E92010-264D-4533-9695-F4EAFE340E19@gmail.com> References: <85E92010-264D-4533-9695-F4EAFE340E19@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18208482-8CC3-4DA2-B716-F8B41DA25250@gmail.com> I'll email you off list. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 10, 2011, at 11:48 PM, Nary Fernandez wrote: > How do i sync my address book? I still havent mastered the mail app. Thanks. > > > Mary Fernandez > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 10, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >> The most efficient way of using gmail is through the mail app included in Mac os x. If you sink your gmail address book with your Mac, email addresses will complete themselves when typing etc. This is very simple to do and it works a lot better than the gmail site, but it only makes sense if you are using your own Mac and not somebody else's. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 10, 2011, at 12:21 PM, Mary Fernandez wrote: >> >>> Hi All, >>> So I have a mac question. Usually when you start typing a name in >>> gmail it will automatically finish the address. Is there anyway to do >>> that on a mac? When i use safari with gmail, it won't let me >>> automatically complete the name. >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mary Fernandez >>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students >>> Emory University 2012 >>> P.O. Box 123056 >>> Atlanta Ga. >>> 30322 >>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>> >>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much >>> rather you weren't doing it." >>> Terry Pratchett >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Mar 11 20:21:53 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:21:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions In-Reply-To: References: <6D2A7BA1C0614C159F365CCDAAE83530@Rufus> Message-ID: I think that will be much like the question asked earlier about how we deal with people who are blind but have other disabilities. And in the same way that some used to complain about the NFB's focus on technology. I think what we do and how we do it may change slightly from generation to generation, but any change is good, as long as we keep our founding principles in mind. Jorge On Mar 10, 2011, at 8:04 PM, Darian Smith wrote: > Lol of course, > I honestly do believe everything in it's place, and find your place > within those places. > > If you can get involved in a local chapter, then please do. I think > that with younger members getting involved in the organization, it's a > give and take type of thing, in that newer members should be as > open to teaching and learning as older members should be. Sometimes > the politics in state affiliates and in chapters (often they play on > each other) can drive younger folks away. These are the folks, that > see all that is wrong in society and think " why are we fighting over > [these things], when [these things] are the root of the whole > problem?" > And this brings us back to what seems to be an age old question. > How can you build new rooms onto an existing house when you are > not sure that that house can withstand the new construction? > I think you get the idea, and with everything that we do, we want > to respect what has been, create the new, and marry the both when > possible. > > > On 3/10/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Darian, >> >> Oh, come on now. Just because I admitted I was okay with divisions does not >> mean I advocated divisions should supplement or even replace local chapters. >> If I were to rank them, local chapters would absolutely be at the top of the >> priority list for several reasons. First, they give you a greater frequency >> to see your fellow members. Second, they are ultimately the organizations >> that carry our message to the greater community. Third, it's because >> chapters are mostly run by older people that young people should get in >> there and learn everything they can about why things are the way they are >> from these veterans, and finally, chapters provide the best perspective to >> learn about leadership skills you cannot readily achieve from national >> divisions. Where as divisions might be considered the arms of the >> organization, never doubt that the heart of the NFB lies in its chapters, >> and if things like poor follow-through, lack of planning or lack of >> organization are keeping students from investigating their local chapters, >> you should get in their and change it into what you think a smooth chapter >> should operate like. Students usually have a million reasons not to attend >> chapter meetings, but when you leave school, life only gets more demanding. >> If you are not motivated now, you will not feel compelled later, and the >> middle age gap that appears to have filled the NFB will continue to prevail. >> I won't be a hypocrite and tell you I am an avid participant of my local >> chapter. I stopped attending after my work and school schedule no longer >> allowed it, but then again, I'm not claiming to be the hard working member I >> once was either. I'll come back eventually in all my controversial glory, >> and when I do, it won't be to find out how to help a division or even an >> affiliate board. It'll be how to strengthen my local chapter, and if one >> doesn't exist, it'll be to set up the best damn chapter that ever did >> breathe. Meanwhile, I hope to do what I can to help the NFB by way of my >> small business. See? I can, sometimes, write shorter posts. LOL >> >> Best, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From marsha.drenth at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 20:41:34 2011 From: marsha.drenth at gmail.com (Marsha Drenth) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:41:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] improving our divisions In-Reply-To: <0E659A03634943B584C222C0C39E0C31@Rufus> References: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> <0E659A03634943B584C222C0C39E0C31@Rufus> Message-ID: <1EC77F9DFE824584B8F864AEA1E2A3D4@Cptr233> Joe, I am curious, give us the structure you would want or see for our divisions? What would you keep that our divisions include now? And what would you change? I am a supporter of our divisions, but also see the downfalls of them too. Certainly the structure can be improved. Anxiously awaiting your solution, marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:50 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Joshua, Struck a nerve there my friend? I know that for most people the idea of eliminating divisions is ludicrous, but this is not as ludicrous as the notion of me ever being NFB president. Sorry, I should have made my sarcasm more clear. To briefly answer your point though, everyone will find different divisions they deem more important than others, and to my credit, I said I would eliminate divisions in the way they exist today. The student division has always been my weakness, and my own bold claim makes me have to think of a different way to capture what I like of the division. I did think about this but doubt anyone would care to listen to more constructive blueprints on how to make it work. Divisions do not make us stronger. They make us spread thinner, and actually, now that you bring it up, I think that if people want to exercise faith, there is the not so foreign concept of venturing out of the hotel and visiting one of hundreds of churches in any city the national convention has ever gone. I have met fellow writers, computer enthusiasts, Mormons, and thought-provoking debaters by virtue of having gone to a convention in general and not necessarily by attending annual review meetings. The potential weakening of divisions is exhibited by your having focused on this aspect of my note and ignored the rest. Still, I'm sincerely glad you expressed your views, because I'm not fully convinced my crazy notions would all work. I just happen to be crazy enough to put them out there. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester [mailto:jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 11:10 AM To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB It would be ridiculous to eliminate the divisions! What about the Communities of Faith? Do you not think that faith is important? We go to convention, (many of us miss church,) so the devotions will be the only church we get while at convention. There are some divisions that may need to be fixed, (or eliminated,) but some need to stay. The performance division, the musicians division, and others are a great means to connect blind performers, and musicians, and people in general. The friendships made during those meetings last a lifetime. I hate calling people out, but Sarah, and Julie have been constant friends, since we met in Dallas. I know that if I have a question, I can go to one of them, and they will help me. That's the same with this student division. I was having problems with a certain thing, but I was able to obtain help from this list. I appreciate what certain divisions do, so it's a ludicris thing to say, that we need to eliminate these divisions, they just make us stronger. My 100 dollars worth, Joshua Lester. On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Brice, > > You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should do > about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only disability > affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. Instead, > tell us what you think should happen. > > I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel > inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been > similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people > who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were > going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel > tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where > they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor > Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel inferior > without your consent." > > But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not being > as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access to > the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be > owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus on > conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it > might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth > promoting? > > Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. > First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national > conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when power-hungry > members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. Third, > they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the > fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were president > of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate > divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional > organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our > ranks to create little havens for blind people. > > My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are > the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so much > time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, > and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that if > the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to exist > in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your > question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is to > encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the organization > recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years > ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT > division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be > established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act > together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about what > you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing > to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make a > good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, > blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a > case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique needs. > > Just my twenty dollar's worth, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5943 (20110310) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5946 (20110311) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5946 (20110311) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Fri Mar 11 21:22:31 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:22:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions In-Reply-To: <002301cbe026$26ebd580$74c38080$@com> References: <002301cbe026$26ebd580$74c38080$@com> Message-ID: Oh interesting; still young generation is in the minority. The other nearby chapter just collapsed which had no young people in it but myself and one new freshman student. Nice to know Potomac is active with diverse ages. -----Original Message----- From: Sean Whalen Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 2:54 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Ashley, I attend the Potomac chapter, so do Mike and CJ Fish, Jessica Kostiew and Sean McMan. All 20 somethings. Just a point of information. Sean _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dandrews at visi.com Fri Mar 11 21:24:35 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:24:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Room mate Message-ID: I have been asked to circulate the following: >Could you send something to all the NFB lists? I'm looking for a >roommate (or 2 or 3) for the convention. I have a non-smoking room >reserved in Orlando and would like someone to help share the cost. I >cannot room with a smoker (even if they are not smoking, the smell >bothers my asthma) but a dog is fine. Anyone who is interested may >contact me at lindazh2 at juno.com. I do not have a computer so I >respond to my e-mails when I get on the computer at the library. > >Linda Z. Hurlock > >____________________________________________________________ >$65/Hr Job - 25 Openings >Part-Time job ($20-$65/hr). Requirements: Home Internet Access >http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d799a307eabf8efc0st02vuc From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Fri Mar 11 22:10:49 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:10:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] In opposition of divisions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I did not intend to post on this again, but I would like to bring something up for consideration. You say that many areas do not have active chapters, and many chapters lack the ability to function in the capacity that some divisions can. I argue that, perhaps, if more effort-- on the organization's part as well as individuals members-- to support chapters and help them grow and flourish, we would find chapters have the ability to function in many aspects that you say are not possible. Perhaps the divisions have thinned the growth of chapters because we no longer have to participate as an actual Federationist to feel like we are supporting causes and initiatives. Please note the word, "feel." People can now flock to divisions-- many which do not directly take action to further these causes and initiatives-- but because they are associated with the Federation, people feel plugged in. I don't know how many email list I have seen where a person post information or comments about legislative issues, NFB programs, and the like-- only to be met with replies about how this list is not the appropriate forum in which to address that news . In fact, I believe when Joe brought up his blind driver challenge comments he mentions in his post here, (this was another list) the same happened. This displays the pulse for the masses considering themselves Federationist, or associates of the organization. I can only draw from my own experience, but I have witnessed year after year the number of students who participate in NABS activities, but never step foot in a chapter event or even an affiliate one for that matter. NABS is important, but when its members fail to understand the infrastructure of the organization they belong to, yes, I have problems with this. We claim to, "boast over 50,000 members," yet our conventions do not exceed 2500, and our chapters often flounder due to the lack of involvement from people in the communities, yet, where does this number derive from? Believe it or not, the chapters are meant to be the foundation of the NFB. Chapters should draw in fresh membership; chapters should help mold the philosophy we encourage; chapters should provide awareness and action to the important issues; chapters should link members with the proper resources including divisions. Instead, many chapters flounder, and some fail, while divisions-- not all, but some-- receive promotion that places chapters on the outskirts. Joe commented on how other national organizations do not create divisions. These organizations thrive on their chapters. Their work and mission is accomplished by chapter members. They do not require specialized divisions to provide information and resources, and to seek support and equality with their endeavors. Federation divisions originally were established because society did not feel it necessary to include blind people in its construction. The NFB created an environment where the blind could seek support, comiseration and information about various interest-- professionally, academically and recreationally-- but as Joe pointed out, the day has past when most pursuits barr the blind, or if they do, legal action can be taken. Now let me explain myself. I am by no means suggesting we have nothing to fight for, nothing to oppose. We are still finding discrimination an active part of society. I joined the NFB because I was sick of dealing with society's perceptions. People accept me and the fact that I can accomplish things, but most still think it is tedious and inefficient for me to accomplish anything without sight. I seek true acceptance and equality. We see this attitude everyday from employers refusing the hire blind people, to schools limiting what blind kids can and can not do, to national groups taking legal action against us, the NFB. And I ask, what do most divisions do to combat this? Or what do they do to help push legislation or educational efforts? Few do. Yet, this is the basis of what chapters should do at the very least. We could encourage members and potential members to participate in their local chapters, and if one does not exist, develop one, so they can further the goals that bring equality, acceptance and accessibility to the blind. Instead, we have thousands of members floating around in national divisions often unaware of what is happening outside a particular division, and in no way participating in activities that promote what the Federation stands for. It should not take separate divisions to instill the importance of issues. Students, parents, guide dog users, employees do not necessarily require their own group to advance research or support causes important to them. I argue that chapters have the potential to act in each stead and call us to arms. The problem is that many of us do not view chapters this way. I see this happening with my own chapter where members begin to think the chapter is its own entity and only functions to support causes specific to itself. This is backwards thinking though. If all the people who currently participate solely in divisions because they are seeking specific interest, would join a local chapter, think of how much could be accomplished. Arielle points out the importance of mentoring. This is vital to any organization like the NFB. Mentoring is the link that cultivates growth and stamina, but, once again, this is something chapters can do if more members involved themselves. Many states lack the resources and manpower to sustain divisions which means anyone belonging to a national division may not have access to mentors through that division alone-- at least not locally. Chapters stand a better chance-- or they should-- of growing because the organization is based on the tiered idea of a national head with state affiliates governing their areas and local chapters policing for new members and ways to maintain membership. This is why every year, during convention, a seminar is held discussing new and inovative methods to create growth among chapters. There was a time when multiple divisions in the Federation did not exist, yet they did not lack growth nor the ability to further goals. People had to join and, like it or not, they were aware of core issues and philosophy because chapters reported on the heart of the organization as well as taking action to promote and advocate these goals. I will say this: The student division and Parents of Blind Children division seem to be two of the more vital divisions needed within the Federation. Not only are these groups active-- at least at a national level-- but they focus on specific concerns that must be addressed in the world. Education must occur as early as possible, and when we reach a population that allows for this exposure, the better chance we have to ensure future generations will carry the torch with full belief in the abilities of the blind. I am not necessarily making an argument against divisions, but I am argueing that we must encourage more growth among chapters. Trust me, if we lose chapters, we will see the Federation grow stale. If we do not cultivate the foundations on which this organization was built, we will not withstand the test of time. What Joe and others are merely attempting to do is to sharpen our minds-- get us thinking and moving. We learn from the past, but without thinking towards the future, we can not experience longevity. We must consider all options and avenues even if they seem impossible or ludacris. Complacency is not an option we should be ready to accept. At the risk of droning on and on, I will sign off. Besides, I am getting sleepy and my coherancy is beginning to wane, if it ever exist! *smile* Bridgit Message: 9 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:36:04 -0500 From: To: , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Joe, Well, I do hope you stay despite your personal and professional commitments; you lend a perspective from an insider's view since you were more involved once in the student division. I do agree with you that many divisions only exist because NFB funds their efforts. It would be great if they fundraised more and did more on their own within the context of the NFB constitution. I also agree that technology fulfills a need for communication, and continues to grow with the times. More and more options are available to read and send emails on the go. You raise some wonderful points and if I addressed them all, this email would be a book. I'll counter argue one point. Nfb divisions need to exist for the networking and mentoring that occurs with similar minded people. Students are a minority and our issues may get lost if we didn't have a collective voice and division to bring them to the national table. I enjoyed going to the student seminars as part of washington seminar. I got a lot out of the speeches for encouragement and tips on college success. In many areas of the state chapters do not exist or are not active. Even if they exist, they have older working or retired adults who do not think of student issues and frustrations. So divisions fill a need that I see is not met elsewhere in nfb. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joe Orozco Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 4:58 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Arielle, and others, Thank you for a well-written and compelling post. You certainly gave it more thought than I ever meant for my outlandish notion to deserve, but so long as you're entertaining my far-flung ideas, I'll give you a little more analysis to better help you and others understand my rationale. For people to understand my point about divisions, they will need to understand my theory on membership behavior. As technology expands, and as we move further into an age of conveniences, it's only going to become more difficult to motivate people to action and do the grunt work that is necessary to make it possible for such a large organization to accomplish significant tasks. Our generation does not have to fight the tangible battles that our founders did to bring about better conditions. True, things could be better for us today, but it would appear that we have not faced the same deplorable challenges our current leadership faced in their age to do things like entering and graduating from college, things we take for granted today. We live in an era where technology has sufficiently advanced to the point where we can complete assignments with reasonable comfort. In fact, in another post I might elaborate on an argument that for all its advantages, technology may be partially responsible for the persistent unemployment rate among the blind, because it provides a sense of productivity without actually motivating blind people to be productive. In addition to technology, we have a fairly decent set of laws and policies that protect persons with disabilities, and so when faced with glaring adversities, we need only find a group willing to take the issue to court and rectify the wrong. Naturally, there are advantages to this sort of protection, but it also promotes a sense of entitlement among the up and coming generation. Young people know that they do not have to belong or participate in a consumer group to enjoy the privileges that these groups have worked to establish. Positive outcomes can be obtained through apps and lawsuits. What this means in the context of the current discussion is that a lot of people attend conventions to reconnect with people more than they do to actively work toward resolving fundamental challenges. The challenges that are most likely to be appealing are those that, ironically, trace back to technology like the Kindle that would not read or the airport kiosk that will not speak or the car that must one day drive, and even these are challenges we can conveniently use technology to advocate from our homes. Why attend national conventions when one can listen to live streams of the event? Why visit our representatives' district offices to speak on pertinent issues when one can send an e-mail or lift a telephone? As technology continues to catch up to our most basic desires, and even more importantly, as technology allows us to fulfill our need for communication more conveniently, the less urgent it becomes to do things like physically attending national conventions and the less real those fundamental challenges around which conventions are organized become. There is absolutely nothing wrong with human interaction. It's healthy and should be actively sought; however, one has to wonder where to draw the line between doing the work of what blind people need and merely providing a stage for what blind people want. We've seen how conventions have been gradually reduced in length, and so the diminishing time that we do have available amongst ourselves should be put to productive use. In my opinion, this should mean actively brainstorming ways to ensure that all the resolutions that are passed at convention are actually fulfilled or significantly moved along as opposed to constructing what generally amount to be nothing more than position statements on current issues. I think we would achieve this if we collapsed the division meeting schedule from the fanciful to the most relevant. You say that divisions are important first because they "facilitate the mentoring and networking that is such an integral part of what we do." While I am a huge fan of mentoring and networking, I believe both services are met within local chapters and affiliates which do more to meet our integral purpose around the clock than divisions can achieve once or twice a year. To my knowledge, the NFB and ACB are the only organizations that are as thinly spread as they are with their vast menus of associations of this and divisions of that. If I were a conspiracy theorist, I might wonder if the NFB has allowed so many special interest groups to exist because they serve as a distraction when fundamental progress is not achieved, but seriously, do we know of any national organization that in addition to chapters, allows for so many special interest groups? Your second reason for promoting divisions is that they "inform the rest of the organization about what advocacy issues matter and how to tackle them." Again, with strong chapters and affiliates the same can be achieved, perhaps with even better results because they can report on issues from a local perspective. The National Center has the staff and resources to not only monitor but react to developing issues. We do not need e-mail lists to be associated with divisions for there to be e-mail lists. We do not need to water down the convention agenda to allow for division meetings that will cover the same concerns that could be openly debated on the convention floor. In other words, there is no element of uniqueness in either of these two points. If the divisions disappeared tomorrow, the same level of mentorship and networking and advocacy could occur. The National Center could fashion departments around the four or five core issues under which all divisions fall, organize roundtable discussions at conventions to flesh out the current concerns of the day, save a little money by maintaining a tighter convention, and still keep the activities we all love and attend like the Louisiana play, the mock trial, and other favorites. If the various associations still want to exist, they can pay for meeting space to coincide alongside the NFB convention or even pick their own meeting sites and dates completely removed from the convention altogether. The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America, the National Association of Hispanic Journalists, and the National PTA are just three examples of people who felt strongly enough about their issues to form their own groups, plan their own conventions and make great strides. One might even argue that separation from the NFB might actually achieve the bonus of attracting more members if only because some people do not come to conventions by virtue of them being hosted by the NFB. To me it would seem that our current divisions are only able to exist because the NFB is able to fund their efforts, and that, to me, smells like baby-sitting. I gave you the scenic tour of my rationale because the discussion originally started in the context of the future of the NFB. In some ways the organization has grown so large as to make the discussion of one item impossible without touching on another, but in other ways the organization has grown so thin as to make its actual size smaller than we may know. My projection is that convention attendance in Orlando will be slightly larger by virtue of the city where the convention is being held. I do not think the attendance rate would be the same if the convention had returned to Dallas for a consecutive year, and what does that really tell you about the organization's productivity? Times are changing, both in terms of how we act and communicate, and if Brice's teacher's observation is correct, there will be differences among blind people themselves. This means we should evaluate the capital of our resources to see where we are performing well and where we are just exhausting efforts as is the case with NFB divisions. Now, having written all that, let me let you in on a secret that I can afford to pass along since my days on the student lists are numbered. The discussions are fantastic, but now that school is behind me, there are too many personal and professional endeavors from which I should not be allowing myself to be so easily distracted! Besides, only a few people will have gotten this far in my rambling, so the secret will not really get out unless you're a snitch. I mean, Let's be serious. You and I know that divisions will not go away just because I think they can be a potential drain on resources. So why bother writing an elaborate case against them? Because it is only through learning how to respond to opposing views that the organization will remain strong. It is far easier to readily agree than it is to coherently disagree. The majority of people who raise opposition to the NFB's way of doing things usually do it from outside the NFB and are almost always morons working with nothing more substantive than hearsay, whereas I can write from firsthand knowledge to hopefully push you to think outside the box in defense of what you believe. Yes, I have my concerns about the future about the NFB, and I genuinely believe that some of our leaders are about as useful as teats on a bull, but I do not really think divisions are as threatening or a waste of time as this post would lead you to believe. I could in fact pull a U turn and argue against my own post line by line with equal conviction. I'm really excited about the Blind Driver Challenge, but last year I was curious to see how people would respond to my challenge that the project is a waste of time and money. In a separate post, and even in the current discussion, I advanced the controversial idea that the NFB will cease to exist in fifty years. I had been hoping for responses a little more vehement than what was said, because while today some of you have argued for why divisions are necessary, tomorrow you may need to argue for why the NFB itself is needed. This may sound extreme, but remember that the ACB was partially born out of some agencies' desire to see the NFB fail. We should not be lulled into presuming that history is not capable of recurring wearing a different outfit and toting the same intention. So, if I can write long posts on both sides of an issue, what do I really believe? I'll let you decide that for yourself. People assume my loyalty to the cause is weak because of the posts I sometimes write. I've never needed anyone's approval to know that I'm a loyal member and would defend the organization when it comes down to the wire. If you follow the NFB philosophy to the letter, you may help the organization stay ahead. If you learn to defend it, you'll help the organization stay there. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 14:36:48 -0800 From: Darian Smith To: jsorozco at gmail.com, National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Joe, you write too much! *smile* Seriously, all. Joe's point about chapters and the work they can do is the only thing that really really jumped out at me. Maybe the reason it did was because I actually need to get on with my studying and other matters of the day that I've been multi- tasking with thus far. Chapters idealy should do the work of mentoring, but can you counthow many chapters actually do make it a point to do this? I suspect you could, and there would be the problem. I know that some do it, but for the strong chapters that may exist, there are plenty of weak ones. What I mean, is that for every chapter that meets, plans activities and actually does them, there are probably five or six that either don't plan anything, plan and don't follow through, or don't meet so they can succeed or fail at the other two. I'm not suggesting (nor do I think anyone is) that divisions should be a substitute for what should happen on the state level, local level, or what does happen on the national level at convention. What I would suggest, as is my belief, is that if divisions are doing their job, they will support the work of the organization, and of chapters (depending on if the division is a state division or a national division). Here's what I mean; On the national level, divisions connect and contextualize information to people, helping bring people into the greater organization. As well, those national divisions help connect people to affiliates when they can, either formally, or informally, as nabs does try to do. on the state level, state divisions should connect people to chapters, and chapters to divisions, therefore strenthening the collective power and ability for those affiliates to mobilize, mentor, create, and overall do the good work that needs to be done. I'm not sure that made sense... you be the judge. Best, Darian On 3/10/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Arielle, and others, > > Thank you for a well-written and compelling post. You certainly gave > it more thought than I ever meant for my outlandish notion to deserve, > but so long as you're entertaining my far-flung ideas, I'll give you a > little more analysis to better help you and others understand my > rationale. > > For people to understand my point about divisions, they will need to > understand my theory on membership behavior. As technology expands, > and as we move further into an age of conveniences, it's only going to > become more difficult to motivate people to action and do the grunt > work that is necessary to make it possible for such a large > organization to accomplish significant tasks. Our generation does not > have to fight the tangible battles that our founders did to bring > about better conditions. True, things could be better for us today, > but it would appear that we have not faced the same deplorable > challenges our current leadership faced in their age to do things like > entering and graduating from college, things we take for granted > today. We live in an era where technology has sufficiently advanced > to the point where we can complete assignments with reasonable > comfort. In fact, in another post I might elaborate on an argument > that for all its advantages, technology may be partially responsible > for the persistent unemployment rate among the blind, because it > provides a sense of productivity without actually motivating blind > people to be productive. In addition to technology, we have a fairly > decent set of laws and policies that protect persons with > disabilities, and so when faced with glaring adversities, we need only > find a group willing to take the issue to court and rectify the wrong. > Naturally, there are advantages to this sort of protection, but it > also promotes a sense of entitlement among the up and coming > generation. Young people know that they do not have to belong or > participate in a consumer group to enjoy the privileges that these > groups have worked to establish. Positive outcomes can be obtained > through apps and lawsuits. > > What this means in the context of the current discussion is that a lot > of people attend conventions to reconnect with people more than they > do to actively work toward resolving fundamental challenges. The > challenges that are most likely to be appealing are those that, > ironically, trace back to technology like the Kindle that would not > read or the airport kiosk that will not speak or the car that must one > day drive, and even these are challenges we can conveniently use > technology to advocate from our homes. Why attend national conventions > when one can listen to live streams of the event? Why visit our > representatives' district offices to speak on pertinent issues when > one can send an e-mail or lift a telephone? As technology continues > to catch up to our most basic desires, and even more importantly, as > technology allows us to fulfill our need for communication more > conveniently, the less urgent it becomes to do things like physically > attending national conventions and the less real those fundamental > challenges around which conventions are organized become. > > There is absolutely nothing wrong with human interaction. It's > healthy and should be actively sought; however, one has to wonder > where to draw the line between doing the work of what blind people > need and merely providing a stage for what blind people want. We've > seen how conventions have been gradually reduced in length, and so the > diminishing time that we do have available amongst ourselves should be > put to productive use. In my opinion, this should mean actively > brainstorming ways to ensure that all the resolutions that are passed > at convention are actually fulfilled or significantly moved along as > opposed to constructing what generally amount to be nothing more than > position statements on current issues. I think we would achieve this > if we collapsed the division meeting schedule from the fanciful to the > most relevant. > > You say that divisions are important first because they "facilitate > the mentoring and networking that is such an integral part of what we > do." While I am a huge fan of mentoring and networking, I believe both > services are met within local chapters and affiliates which do more to > meet our integral purpose around the clock than divisions can achieve > once or twice a year. To my knowledge, the NFB and ACB are the only > organizations that are as thinly spread as they are with their vast > menus of associations of this and divisions of that. If I were a > conspiracy theorist, I might wonder if the NFB has allowed so many > special interest groups to exist because they serve as a distraction > when fundamental progress is not achieved, but seriously, do we know > of any national organization that in addition to chapters, allows for > so many special interest groups? > > Your second reason for promoting divisions is that they "inform the > rest of the organization about what advocacy issues matter and how to > tackle them." Again, with strong chapters and affiliates the same can > be achieved, perhaps with even better results because they can report > on issues from a local perspective. The National Center has the staff > and resources to not only monitor but react to developing issues. We > do not need e-mail lists to be associated with divisions for there to > be e-mail lists. We do not need to water down the convention agenda > to allow for division meetings that will cover the same concerns that > could be openly debated on the convention floor. > > In other words, there is no element of uniqueness in either of these > two points. If the divisions disappeared tomorrow, the same level of > mentorship and networking and advocacy could occur. The National > Center could fashion departments around the four or five core issues > under which all divisions fall, organize roundtable discussions at > conventions to flesh out the current concerns of the day, save a > little money by maintaining a tighter convention, and still keep the > activities we all love and attend like the Louisiana play, the mock > trial, and other favorites. > > If the various associations still want to exist, they can pay for > meeting space to coincide alongside the NFB convention or even pick > their own meeting sites and dates completely removed from the > convention altogether. The Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of > America, the National Association of Hispanic Journalists, and the > National PTA are just three examples of people who felt strongly > enough about their issues to form their own groups, plan their own > conventions and make great strides. One might even argue that > separation from the NFB might actually achieve the bonus of attracting > more members if only because some people do not come to conventions by > virtue of them being hosted by the NFB. To me it would seem that our > current divisions are only able to exist because the NFB is able to > fund their efforts, and that, to me, smells like baby-sitting. > > I gave you the scenic tour of my rationale because the discussion > originally started in the context of the future of the NFB. In some > ways the organization has grown so large as to make the discussion of > one item impossible without touching on another, but in other ways the > organization has grown so thin as to make its actual size smaller than > we may know. My projection is that convention attendance in Orlando > will be slightly larger by virtue of the city where the convention is > being held. I do not think the attendance rate would be the same if > the convention had returned to Dallas for a consecutive year, and what > does that really tell you about the organization's productivity? > Times are changing, both in terms of how we act and communicate, and > if Brice's teacher's observation is correct, there will be differences > among blind people themselves. This means we should evaluate the > capital of our resources to see where we are performing well and where > we are just exhausting efforts as is the case with NFB divisions. > > Now, having written all that, let me let you in on a secret that I can > afford to pass along since my days on the student lists are numbered. > The discussions are fantastic, but now that school is behind me, there > are too many personal and professional endeavors from which I should > not be allowing myself to be so easily distracted! Besides, only a > few people will have gotten this far in my rambling, so the secret > will not really get out unless you're a snitch. > > I mean, Let's be serious. You and I know that divisions will not go > away just because I think they can be a potential drain on resources. > So why bother writing an elaborate case against them? Because it is > only through learning how to respond to opposing views that the > organization will remain strong. It is far easier to readily agree > than it is to coherently disagree. The majority of people who raise > opposition to the NFB's way of doing things usually do it from outside > the NFB and are almost always morons working with nothing more > substantive than hearsay, whereas I can write from firsthand knowledge > to hopefully push you to think outside the box in defense of what you > believe. Yes, I have my concerns about the future about the NFB, and > I genuinely believe that some of our leaders are about as useful as > teats on a bull, but I do not really think divisions are as > threatening or a waste of time as this post would lead you to believe. > I could in fact pull a U turn and argue against my own post line by > line with equal conviction. I'm really excited about the Blind Driver > Challenge, but last year I was curious to see how people would respond > to my challenge that the project is a waste of time and money. In a > separate post, and even in the current discussion, I advanced the > controversial idea that the NFB will cease to exist in fifty years. I > had been hoping for responses a little more vehement than what was > said, because while today some of you have argued for why divisions > are necessary, tomorrow you may need to argue for why the NFB itself > is needed. This may sound extreme, but remember that the ACB was > partially born out of some agencies' desire to see the NFB fail. We > should not be lulled into presuming that history is not capable of > recurring wearing a different outfit and toting the same intention. > > So, if I can write long posts on both sides of an issue, what do I > really believe? I'll let you decide that for yourself. People assume > my loyalty to the cause is weak because of the posts I sometimes > write. I've never needed anyone's approval to know that I'm a loyal > member and would defend the organization when it comes down to the > wire. If you follow the NFB philosophy to the letter, you may help > the organization stay ahead. If you learn to defend it, you'll help > the organization stay there. > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their > sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at > all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gm > ail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. ? Robert Byrne ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 15:04:17 -0800 From: Darian Smith Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Save AmeriCorps - Call on March 15th Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 As an AmeriCorps alum, I am sharing this with you folks. I am sure you kno that national service via government funded programs is in serious trouble (as is about everything right about now). AmeriCorps programs are a huge deal and help many people, organizations and local governments/cities. As well, I'm sure most colleges have some form ofAmeriCorps program on campus. Well, these things may go, and go soon/fast. As a blind person, this was a great way, and probably the only way I could give back to my country and not be involved in the military. This is a messageI came upon, and wanted to share. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Darian Smith Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:52:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fwd: Save AmeriCorps - Call on March 15th To: dsmithnfb at gmail.com -----Original Message----- From: saveamericorps To: ds94124 Sent: Thu, Mar 10, 2011 2:02 pm Subject: Save AmeriCorps - Call on March 15th Hi Darian, OnTuesday,March 15th, we are asking you, your friends, your family, your neighbors,the milk man, and anyone else you can think of to make a call toSaveService in America! Help us get the attention of the entire Senate byoverwhelming their offices with phone calls asking them to support AmeriCorpsand keep national service alive in America! Congresshas passed a short-term spending bill that will avert a federal governmentshutdown for two weeks. Before March 18th, Congress must reach a compromise onthe FY11 budget. As you know, the House already voted to eliminate AmeriCorpswhen they passed H.R. 1. This week, the Senate weighedin: the vote on H.R. 1 and on the Democratic alternative failed. Now, seriousnegotiations will follow, as the House and Senate try to make the toughdecisions and find common ground. The question is: will the FY11 budgetagreement fund AmeriCorps and Corporation for National and Community Service? Thatis why, onMarch 15th, we are going to flood their offices with calls telling them tosupport AmeriCorps and service. The best part is, you don't even have to takeoff from work for this! You can locate your Senators hereand find the phone number to their office. When you call, simply tell them yousupport AmeriCorps, what it does for the country, and that Congress should keepit funded in the next year.Your voice matters! Youcan also continue to help support service by submitting your personal testimonialsof service. We're preparing a collection of these to give tothe Senate. Our best stories will show how national service has shaped andchanged the U.S. for the better for the last 45 years and cutting it now wouldbe a terrible mistake. For those who have already contributed stories, thankyou! For those who haven't, now is your chance to share! That'sall for now, but keep following us onFacebookandTwitterforupdates. Keep on the great work and don'tforget to call your Senator on March 15th and tell them to Save Service! Serve On! The AmeriCorps Alums Team Support the fight to keep AmeriCorps going strong.Donate. 600 Means Street, Ste. 210 | Atlanta, GA 30318  Phone: 202.729.8186 | Fax:202.729.8100 This email was sent to 'ds94124 at aol.com' from AmeriCorps Alums. If youwish to stop receiving email from us, you can simply remove yourself byvisiting: http://www.americorpsalums.org/general/opt.asp?e=ds94124 at aol.com -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. ? Robert Byrne ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 18:56:30 -0500 From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Darian, Oh, come on now. Just because I admitted I was okay with divisions does not mean I advocated divisions should supplement or even replace local chapters. If I were to rank them, local chapters would absolutely be at the top of the priority list for several reasons. First, they give you a greater frequency to see your fellow members. Second, they are ultimately the organizations that carry our message to the greater community. Third, it's because chapters are mostly run by older people that young people should get in there and learn everything they can about why things are the way they are from these veterans, and finally, chapters provide the best perspective to learn about leadership skills you cannot readily achieve from national divisions. Where as divisions might be considered the arms of the organization, never doubt that the heart of the NFB lies in its chapters, and if things like poor follow-through, lack of planning or lack of organization are keeping students from investigating their local chapters, you should get in their and change it into what you think a smooth chapter should operate like. Students usually have a million reasons not to attend chapter meetings, but when you leave school, life only gets more demanding. If you are not motivated now, you will not feel compelled later, and the middle age gap that appears to have filled the NFB will continue to prevail. I won't be a hypocrite and tell you I am an avid participant of my local chapter. I stopped attending after my work and school schedule no longer allowed it, but then again, I'm not claiming to be the hard working member I once was either. I'll come back eventually in all my controversial glory, and when I do, it won't be to find out how to help a division or even an affiliate board. It'll be how to strengthen my local chapter, and if one doesn't exist, it'll be to set up the best damn chapter that ever did breathe. Meanwhile, I hope to do what I can to help the NFB by way of my small business. See? I can, sometimes, write shorter posts. LOL Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:04:39 -0800 From: Darian Smith To: jsorozco at gmail.com, National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Lol of course, I honestly do believe everything in it's place, and find your place within those places. If you can get involved in a local chapter, then please do. I think that with younger members getting involved in the organization, it's a give and take type of thing, in that newer members should be as open to teaching and learning as older members should be. Sometimes the politics in state affiliates and in chapters (often they play on each other) can drive younger folks away. These are the folks, that see all that is wrong in society and think " why are we fighting over [these things], when [these things] are the root of the whole problem?" And this brings us back to what seems to be an age old question. How can you build new rooms onto an existing house when you are not sure that that house can withstand the new construction? I think you get the idea, and with everything that we do, we want to respect what has been, create the new, and marry the both when possible. On 3/10/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Darian, > > Oh, come on now. Just because I admitted I was okay with divisions > does not mean I advocated divisions should supplement or even replace > local chapters. If I were to rank them, local chapters would > absolutely be at the top of the priority list for several reasons. > First, they give you a greater frequency to see your fellow members. > Second, they are ultimately the organizations that carry our message > to the greater community. Third, it's because chapters are mostly run > by older people that young people should get in there and learn > everything they can about why things are the way they are from these > veterans, and finally, chapters provide the best perspective to learn > about leadership skills you cannot readily achieve from national > divisions. Where as divisions might be considered the arms of the > organization, never doubt that the heart of the NFB lies in its > chapters, and if things like poor follow-through, lack of planning or > lack of organization are keeping students from investigating their > local chapters, you should get in their and change it into what you > think a smooth chapter should operate like. Students usually have a > million reasons not to attend chapter meetings, but when you leave > school, life only gets more demanding. If you are not motivated now, > you will not feel compelled later, and the middle age gap that appears > to have filled the NFB will continue to prevail. I won't be a > hypocrite and tell you I am an avid participant of my local chapter. > I stopped attending after my work and school schedule no longer > allowed it, but then again, I'm not claiming to be the hard working > member I once was either. I'll come back eventually in all my > controversial glory, and when I do, it won't be to find out how to > help a division or even an affiliate board. It'll be how to > strengthen my local chapter, and if one doesn't exist, it'll be to set > up the best damn chapter that ever did breathe. Meanwhile, I hope to > do what I can to help the NFB by way of my small business. See? I > can, sometimes, write shorter posts. LOL > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their > sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at > all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gm > ail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. ? Robert Byrne ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 20:52:02 -0500 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Yep, young folks are driven away by politics or something. For instance in my area there are two chapters near me. None of them have young members; I believe Corbb attended Potomac chapter but that's the only young one I know about. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Darian Smith Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2011 8:04 PM To: jsorozco at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Lol of course, I honestly do believe everything in it's place, and find your place within those places. If you can get involved in a local chapter, then please do. I think that with younger members getting involved in the organization, it's a give and take type of thing, in that newer members should be as open to teaching and learning as older members should be. Sometimes the politics in state affiliates and in chapters (often they play on each other) can drive younger folks away. These are the folks, that see all that is wrong in society and think " why are we fighting over [these things], when [these things] are the root of the whole problem?" And this brings us back to what seems to be an age old question. How can you build new rooms onto an existing house when you are not sure that that house can withstand the new construction? I think you get the idea, and with everything that we do, we want to respect what has been, create the new, and marry the both when possible. On 3/10/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Darian, > > Oh, come on now. Just because I admitted I was okay with divisions > does > not > mean I advocated divisions should supplement or even replace local > chapters. > If I were to rank them, local chapters would absolutely be at the top of > the > priority list for several reasons. First, they give you a greater > frequency > to see your fellow members. Second, they are ultimately the organizations > that carry our message to the greater community. Third, it's because > chapters are mostly run by older people that young people should get in > there and learn everything they can about why things are the way they are > from these veterans, and finally, chapters provide the best perspective to > learn about leadership skills you cannot readily achieve from national > divisions. Where as divisions might be considered the arms of the > organization, never doubt that the heart of the NFB lies in its chapters, > and if things like poor follow-through, lack of planning or lack of > organization are keeping students from investigating their local chapters, > you should get in their and change it into what you think a smooth chapter > should operate like. Students usually have a million reasons not to > attend > chapter meetings, but when you leave school, life only gets more > demanding. > If you are not motivated now, you will not feel compelled later, and the > middle age gap that appears to have filled the NFB will continue to > prevail. > I won't be a hypocrite and tell you I am an avid participant of my local > chapter. I stopped attending after my work and school schedule no longer > allowed it, but then again, I'm not claiming to be the hard working member > I > once was either. I'll come back eventually in all my controversial glory, > and when I do, it won't be to find out how to help a division or even an > affiliate board. It'll be how to strengthen my local chapter, and if one > doesn't exist, it'll be to set up the best damn chapter that ever did > breathe. Meanwhile, I hope to do what I can to help the NFB by way of my > small business. See? I can, sometimes, write shorter posts. LOL > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their > sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at > all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gm > ail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. ? Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 19:52:56 -0600 From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] In Opposition to Divisions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Darion, why did you use brackets, instead of parentheses? On 3/10/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Lol of course, > I honestly do believe everything in it's place, and find your place > within those places. > > If you can get involved in a local chapter, then please do. I think > that with younger members getting involved in the organization, it's a > give and take type of thing, in that newer members should be as > open to teaching and learning as older members should be. Sometimes > the politics in state affiliates and in chapters (often they play on > each other) can drive younger folks away. These are the folks, that > see all that is wrong in society and think " why are we fighting over > [these things], when [these things] are the root of the whole > problem?" > And this brings us back to what seems to be an age old question. > How can you build new rooms onto an existing house when you are > not sure that that house can withstand the new construction? I think > you get the idea, and with everything that we do, we want to > respect what has been, create the new, and marry the both when > possible. > > > On 3/10/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Darian, >> >> Oh, come on now. Just because I admitted I was okay with divisions >> does not mean I advocated divisions should supplement or even replace >> local chapters. >> If I were to rank them, local chapters would absolutely be at the top of >> the >> priority list for several reasons. First, they give you a greater >> frequency >> to see your fellow members. Second, they are ultimately the organizations >> that carry our message to the greater community. Third, it's because >> chapters are mostly run by older people that young people should get in >> there and learn everything they can about why things are the way they are >> from these veterans, and finally, chapters provide the best perspective to >> learn about leadership skills you cannot readily achieve from national >> divisions. Where as divisions might be considered the arms of the >> organization, never doubt that the heart of the NFB lies in its chapters, >> and if things like poor follow-through, lack of planning or lack of >> organization are keeping students from investigating their local chapters, >> you should get in their and change it into what you think a smooth chapter >> should operate like. Students usually have a million reasons not to >> attend >> chapter meetings, but when you leave school, life only gets more >> demanding. >> If you are not motivated now, you will not feel compelled later, and the >> middle age gap that appears to have filled the NFB will continue to >> prevail. >> I won't be a hypocrite and tell you I am an avid participant of my local >> chapter. I stopped attending after my work and school schedule no longer >> allowed it, but then again, I'm not claiming to be the hard working member >> I >> once was either. I'll come back eventually in all my controversial glory, >> and when I do, it won't be to find out how to help a division or even an >> affiliate board. It'll be how to strengthen my local chapter, and if one >> doesn't exist, it'll be to set up the best damn chapter that ever did >> breathe. Meanwhile, I hope to do what I can to help the NFB by way of my >> small business. See? I can, sometimes, write shorter posts. LOL >> >> Best, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >> sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at >> all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >> mail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > ? Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40 > students.pccua.edu > ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 23:48:32 -0500 From: Nary Fernandez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] MAC and Gmail Message-ID: <85E92010-264D-4533-9695-F4EAFE340E19 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii How do i sync my address book? I still havent mastered the mail app. Thanks. Mary Fernandez Sent from my iPhone On Mar 10, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > The most efficient way of using gmail is through the mail app included > in Mac os x. If you sink your gmail address book with your Mac, email > addresses will complete themselves when typing etc. This is very > simple to do and it works a lot better than the gmail site, but it > only makes sense if you are using your own Mac and not somebody > else's. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 10, 2011, at 12:21 PM, Mary Fernandez > wrote: > >> Hi All, >> So I have a mac question. Usually when you start typing a name in >> gmail it will automatically finish the address. Is there anyway to do >> that on a mac? When i use safari with gmail, it won't let me >> automatically complete the name. Thanks. >> >> >> -- >> Mary Fernandez >> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students >> Emory University 2012 >> P.O. Box 123056 >> Atlanta Ga. >> 30322 >> Phone: 732-857-7004 >> >> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much >> rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra% >> 40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 > gmail.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 14 ************************************** From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 22:50:15 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:50:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] improving our divisions In-Reply-To: <1EC77F9DFE824584B8F864AEA1E2A3D4@Cptr233> References: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> <0E659A03634943B584C222C0C39E0C31@Rufus> <1EC77F9DFE824584B8F864AEA1E2A3D4@Cptr233> Message-ID: Hi Marsha, Other divisions would do well to follow the student division's example. It's not a complement I would have always given NABS, even during the two years when I served on its board, but honestly, Arielle and her board have been making significant improvements to NABS what with the consistent monthly bulletins, routine teleconferences, and fairly regular Student Slate. When I casually threw out my jab at divisions to gauge reactions, NABS was not at all on my mind. I like that the students have chosen one plank to build upon. To me, that plank has been communication, and they've built upon it very well. Can they do better? NABS could always be better, but I think I'm always going to have loftier expectations for my favorite group in the organization. In general, I think I'd always advocate for socialization between divisions and the community entities that carry out work similar to what the divisions are aiming for. For me, it's not about deliberately emphasizing mingling with the mainstream public because too much blind interaction is bad. I think people inherently get this, or should get it, but it stands to reason that divisions cannot logistically meet as frequently or as efficiently as they would hope if for no other reason that there just aren't so many blind persons interested in the same topic concentrated in the same area. If I were a member of the deaf-blind division, for example, I would explore partnership opportunities with something like the National Association of the Deaf, just as an example, if only to provide the division with an additional resource and to give division members something to belong to outside of national conventions. Unfortunately, you've caught me at a point where I'm working into the weekend to keep up with my job. I don't have enough time at the moment to give you my roadmap of my vision of how divisions could feed into the organization in a way that is more productive for all, though I began with a few thoughts in an earlier post on this thread. Yet, I'm not sure that it would be completely worth it even if there were time, because it would take a massive effort to convince leaders to change their practices. What my writing would amount to is nothing more than pages and pages of wishful thinking, and after a while the only thing that does is burn you out. Maybe Maurer will let me be president for a day so I can turn things upside down and consequently put us in a better position. LOL Anyway, below is a link to the Action Plan series of posts I wrote over a year ago. I'd written it with the student division in mind but think the points could be applicable to most any division, if you properly substitute some references. I know several people thought I was a snob for putting together some blueprints, as though I could possibly have all the answers, but we'll never find resolutions if you don't make propositions. That's all these posts were, proposals. They may or may not help. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1510865/action_plan.zip Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: Marsha Drenth [mailto:marsha.drenth at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 3:42 PM To: jsorozco at gmail.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: improving our divisions Joe, I am curious, give us the structure you would want or see for our divisions? What would you keep that our divisions include now? And what would you change? I am a supporter of our divisions, but also see the downfalls of them too. Certainly the structure can be improved. Anxiously awaiting your solution, marsha -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Joe Orozco Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:50 PM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Joshua, Struck a nerve there my friend? I know that for most people the idea of eliminating divisions is ludicrous, but this is not as ludicrous as the notion of me ever being NFB president. Sorry, I should have made my sarcasm more clear. To briefly answer your point though, everyone will find different divisions they deem more important than others, and to my credit, I said I would eliminate divisions in the way they exist today. The student division has always been my weakness, and my own bold claim makes me have to think of a different way to capture what I like of the division. I did think about this but doubt anyone would care to listen to more constructive blueprints on how to make it work. Divisions do not make us stronger. They make us spread thinner, and actually, now that you bring it up, I think that if people want to exercise faith, there is the not so foreign concept of venturing out of the hotel and visiting one of hundreds of churches in any city the national convention has ever gone. I have met fellow writers, computer enthusiasts, Mormons, and thought-provoking debaters by virtue of having gone to a convention in general and not necessarily by attending annual review meetings. The potential weakening of divisions is exhibited by your having focused on this aspect of my note and ignored the rest. Still, I'm sincerely glad you expressed your views, because I'm not fully convinced my crazy notions would all work. I just happen to be crazy enough to put them out there. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: Joshua Lester [mailto:jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu] Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 11:10 AM To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB It would be ridiculous to eliminate the divisions! What about the Communities of Faith? Do you not think that faith is important? We go to convention, (many of us miss church,) so the devotions will be the only church we get while at convention. There are some divisions that may need to be fixed, (or eliminated,) but some need to stay. The performance division, the musicians division, and others are a great means to connect blind performers, and musicians, and people in general. The friendships made during those meetings last a lifetime. I hate calling people out, but Sarah, and Julie have been constant friends, since we met in Dallas. I know that if I have a question, I can go to one of them, and they will help me. That's the same with this student division. I was having problems with a certain thing, but I was able to obtain help from this list. I appreciate what certain divisions do, so it's a ludicris thing to say, that we need to eliminate these divisions, they just make us stronger. My 100 dollars worth, Joshua Lester. On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Brice, > > You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should do > about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only disability > affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. Instead, > tell us what you think should happen. > > I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel > inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been > similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people > who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were > going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel > tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where > they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor > Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel inferior > without your consent." > > But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not being > as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access to > the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be > owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus on > conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it > might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth > promoting? > > Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. > First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national > conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when power-hungry > members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. Third, > they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the > fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were president > of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate > divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional > organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our > ranks to create little havens for blind people. > > My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are > the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so much > time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, > and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that if > the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to exist > in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your > question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is to > encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the organization > recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years > ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT > division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be > established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act > together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about what > you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing > to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make a > good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, > blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a > case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique needs. > > Just my twenty dollar's worth, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai l.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5943 (20110310) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5946 (20110311) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5946 (20110311) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com From thebluesisloose at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 22:55:12 2011 From: thebluesisloose at gmail.com (Beth) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:55:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] CCB tudent's update and great news! Message-ID: <4d7aa87b.8f7edc0a.5d47.ffffb5ed@mx.google.com> Dear Listservs, I would like to tell all of you about my time at CCB. I've decided to move to Colorado, and because of family issues, am in the process of doing so now. Pray that it goes well. ome of you may also know that I was at the National Convention. I hope to see you all at conventions in Orlando and such places as that. I am graduating CCB in April, and all of you are welcome to ask me questions about the details of CCB life. Anyone who wants to come here, I'd recommend it. It's a good place to go. Sincerely, Beth Taurasi From adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 23:21:46 2011 From: adrianne.dempsey at gmail.com (Andi) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:21:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness ishue, but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the worst. It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just raise hackles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM To: nabs-l Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 Hi everyone. It's time for another community service conference call! We will have much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention service project. We will also have a discussion of summer oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope you're on the call. When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST Where: Call 218.339.3600 Passcode: 808277 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Mar 11 23:28:12 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:28:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Andy: With all due respect, please do not post political propaganda on this list. Jorge On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: > I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness ishue, but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the worst. It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just raise hackles. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM > > > > -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM > To: nabs-l > Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 > > Hi everyone. > > It's time for another community service conference call! We will have > much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention > service project. We will also have a discussion of summer > oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope > you're on the call. > > When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST > > Where: Call 218.339.3600 > Passcode: 808277 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 23:37:14 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 16:37:14 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this? Cause, just going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her all that seriously. Anyone wanna let me know what's really going on here? (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list. Heaven knows this could turn in to something crazy) Best, Kirt On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Andy: > With all due respect, > please do not post political propaganda on this list. > > Jorge > > > On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: > >> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, >> especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness ishue, >> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It >> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the worst. >> It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be >> done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it >> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just raise >> hackles. >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach >> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM >> To: nabs-l >> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 >> >> Hi everyone. >> >> It's time for another community service conference call! We will have >> much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention >> service project. We will also have a discussion of summer >> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope >> you're on the call. >> >> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST >> >> Where: Call 218.339.3600 >> Passcode: 808277 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Fri Mar 11 23:46:31 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:46:31 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is that Rachel Maddow? Of course, she can't be taken seriously! She's a propaganda-hungry liberal! This propaganda is not for this list. Thanks, Jorge, I concur with you on that one. Blessings, Joshua On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this? Cause, just > going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case > outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her > all that seriously. Anyone wanna let me know what's really going on > here? (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list. Heaven > knows this could turn in to something crazy) > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Andy: >> With all due respect, >> please do not post political propaganda on this list. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: >> >>> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, >>> especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness ishue, >>> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It >>> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the worst. >>> It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be >>> done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it >>> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just >>> raise >>> hackles. >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM >>> To: nabs-l >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 >>> >>> Hi everyone. >>> >>> It's time for another community service conference call! We will have >>> much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention >>> service project. We will also have a discussion of summer >>> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope >>> you're on the call. >>> >>> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST >>> >>> Where: Call 218.339.3600 >>> Passcode: 808277 >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 23:58:11 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 15:58:11 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] improving our divisions In-Reply-To: References: <5F228BCA49B5420C81D9DF0D36AD841B@Rufus> <0E659A03634943B584C222C0C39E0C31@Rufus> <1EC77F9DFE824584B8F864AEA1E2A3D4@Cptr233> Message-ID: I would have to say that chapters and divisions can suffer from the same issues of a lack of leadership, or a lack of good leadership. I think that if you have good leadership ( the type that keeps in mind local and national movements, issues and trends and supports them. Also supports their membership's personal, professional and organizational growth) on the chapter, state, and divisional levels, you'll find that the work that we say doesn't get done, will get done. So, in short, I generally am of the thought that if you find and promote good leaders over political ties, you'll find people who's hearts and minds are in the right pplace of serving people and not self. On 3/11/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Hi Marsha, > > Other divisions would do well to follow the student division's example. > It's not a complement I would have always given NABS, even during the two > years when I served on its board, but honestly, Arielle and her board have > been making significant improvements to NABS what with the consistent > monthly bulletins, routine teleconferences, and fairly regular Student > Slate. When I casually threw out my jab at divisions to gauge reactions, > NABS was not at all on my mind. I like that the students have chosen one > plank to build upon. To me, that plank has been communication, and they've > built upon it very well. Can they do better? NABS could always be better, > but I think I'm always going to have loftier expectations for my favorite > group in the organization. > > In general, I think I'd always advocate for socialization between divisions > and the community entities that carry out work similar to what the divisions > are aiming for. For me, it's not about deliberately emphasizing mingling > with the mainstream public because too much blind interaction is bad. I > think people inherently get this, or should get it, but it stands to reason > that divisions cannot logistically meet as frequently or as efficiently as > they would hope if for no other reason that there just aren't so many blind > persons interested in the same topic concentrated in the same area. If I > were a member of the deaf-blind division, for example, I would explore > partnership opportunities with something like the National Association of > the Deaf, just as an example, if only to provide the division with an > additional resource and to give division members something to belong to > outside of national conventions. > > Unfortunately, you've caught me at a point where I'm working into the > weekend to keep up with my job. I don't have enough time at the moment to > give you my roadmap of my vision of how divisions could feed into the > organization in a way that is more productive for all, though I began with a > few thoughts in an earlier post on this thread. Yet, I'm not sure that it > would be completely worth it even if there were time, because it would take > a massive effort to convince leaders to change their practices. What my > writing would amount to is nothing more than pages and pages of wishful > thinking, and after a while the only thing that does is burn you out. Maybe > Maurer will let me be president for a day so I can turn things upside down > and consequently put us in a better position. LOL > > Anyway, below is a link to the Action Plan series of posts I wrote over a > year ago. I'd written it with the student division in mind but think the > points could be applicable to most any division, if you properly substitute > some references. I know several people thought I was a snob for putting > together some blueprints, as though I could possibly have all the answers, > but we'll never find resolutions if you don't make propositions. That's all > these posts were, proposals. They may or may not help. > > http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1510865/action_plan.zip > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > -----Original Message----- > From: Marsha Drenth [mailto:marsha.drenth at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 3:42 PM > To: jsorozco at gmail.com; 'National Association of Blind Students mailing > list' > Subject: improving our divisions > > Joe, > > I am curious, give us the structure you would want or see for our divisions? > What would you keep that our divisions include now? And what would you > change? > > I am a supporter of our divisions, but also see the downfalls of them too. > Certainly the structure can be improved. > > Anxiously awaiting your solution, > marsha > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Joe Orozco > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 12:50 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > > Joshua, > > Struck a nerve there my friend? I know that for most people the idea of > eliminating divisions is ludicrous, but this is not as ludicrous as the > notion of me ever being NFB president. Sorry, I should have made my sarcasm > more clear. To briefly answer your point though, everyone will find > different divisions they deem more important than others, and to my credit, > I said I would eliminate divisions in the way they exist today. The student > division has always been my weakness, and my own bold claim makes me have to > think of a different way to capture what I like of the division. I did > think about this but doubt anyone would care to listen to more constructive > blueprints on how to make it work. Divisions do not make us stronger. They > make us spread thinner, and actually, now that you bring it up, I think that > if people want to exercise faith, there is the not so foreign concept of > venturing out of the hotel and visiting one of hundreds of churches in any > city the national convention has ever gone. I have met fellow writers, > computer enthusiasts, Mormons, and thought-provoking debaters by virtue of > having gone to a convention in general and not necessarily by attending > annual review meetings. The potential weakening of divisions is exhibited > by your having focused on this aspect of my note and ignored the rest. > Still, I'm sincerely glad you expressed your views, because I'm not fully > convinced my crazy notions would all work. I just happen to be crazy enough > to put them out there. > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > -----Original Message----- > From: Joshua Lester [mailto:jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu] > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2011 11:10 AM > To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > > It would be ridiculous to eliminate the divisions! What about the > Communities of Faith? Do you not think that faith is important? We go > to convention, (many of us miss church,) so the devotions will be the > only church we get while at convention. There are some divisions that > may need to be fixed, (or eliminated,) but some need to stay. The > performance division, the musicians division, and others are a great > means to connect blind performers, and musicians, and people in > general. The friendships made during those meetings last a lifetime. I > hate calling people out, but Sarah, and Julie have been constant > friends, since we met in Dallas. I know that if I have a question, I > can go to one of them, and they will help me. That's the same with > this student division. I was having problems with a certain thing, but > I was able to obtain help from this list. I appreciate what certain > divisions do, so it's a ludicris thing to say, that we need to > eliminate these divisions, they just make us stronger. > My 100 dollars worth, > Joshua Lester. > > On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Brice, >> >> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should > do >> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only > disability >> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. > Instead, >> tell us what you think should happen. >> >> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been >> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people >> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were >> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel > inferior >> without your consent." >> >> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not > being >> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access > to >> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus > on >> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >> promoting? >> >> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when > power-hungry >> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. > Third, >> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were > president >> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >> >> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are >> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so > much >> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that > if >> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to > exist >> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is > to >> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the > organization >> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about > what >> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing >> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make > a >> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique > needs. >> >> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen > ts.pccua.edu >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > l.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5943 (20110310) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5946 (20110311) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5946 (20110311) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 00:22:37 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:22:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: :) And you wonder why I don't much trust talkshow hosts. On both sides of the isle. Best, Kirt On 3/11/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Is that Rachel Maddow? Of course, she can't be taken seriously! She's > a propaganda-hungry liberal! > This propaganda is not for this list. Thanks, Jorge, I concur with you > on that one. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this? Cause, just >> going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case >> outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her >> all that seriously. Anyone wanna let me know what's really going on >> here? (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list. Heaven >> knows this could turn in to something crazy) >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Andy: >>> With all due respect, >>> please do not post political propaganda on this list. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: >>> >>>> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, >>>> especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness >>>> ishue, >>>> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It >>>> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the >>>> worst. >>>> It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be >>>> done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it >>>> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just >>>> raise >>>> hackles. >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM >>>> To: nabs-l >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 >>>> >>>> Hi everyone. >>>> >>>> It's time for another community service conference call! We will have >>>> much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention >>>> service project. We will also have a discussion of summer >>>> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope >>>> you're on the call. >>>> >>>> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST >>>> >>>> Where: Call 218.339.3600 >>>> Passcode: 808277 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sat Mar 12 00:32:47 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 18:32:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bill ORieley, and Mike Huckabee, are the most trusted. I also like Glenn Beck. Kirt, Beck is a Morman, (I thought I'd throw that out there.) Blessings, Joshua On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > :) And you wonder why I don't much trust talkshow hosts. On both > sides of the isle. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/11/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Is that Rachel Maddow? Of course, she can't be taken seriously! She's >> a propaganda-hungry liberal! >> This propaganda is not for this list. Thanks, Jorge, I concur with you >> on that one. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this? Cause, just >>> going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case >>> outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her >>> all that seriously. Anyone wanna let me know what's really going on >>> here? (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list. Heaven >>> knows this could turn in to something crazy) >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Andy: >>>> With all due respect, >>>> please do not post political propaganda on this list. >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: >>>> >>>>> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, >>>>> especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness >>>>> ishue, >>>>> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It >>>>> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the >>>>> worst. >>>>> It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be >>>>> done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it >>>>> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just >>>>> raise >>>>> hackles. >>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM >>>>> To: nabs-l >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 >>>>> >>>>> Hi everyone. >>>>> >>>>> It's time for another community service conference call! We will have >>>>> much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention >>>>> service project. We will also have a discussion of summer >>>>> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope >>>>> you're on the call. >>>>> >>>>> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST >>>>> >>>>> Where: Call 218.339.3600 >>>>> Passcode: 808277 >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Sat Mar 12 01:45:10 2011 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 20:45:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , Message-ID: I think the one thing I could totally agree with in this interview is the last statement where the reporter claimed that this is clearly a case of shock doctrine. Since she clearly only stated one side of the story, and made it out to be a bit more than what it should be, I would think that her report would serve as an example of shock doctrine rather than the actual events themselves. I believe this story is so ludicrous that I am not even so sure where to begin. However, since this is an email list of blind students from across the country, I do not believe this is the place to discuss this particular matter. I believe the purpose of this email list is to discuss matters relating to being a blind student. Since this story does not have anything to do with being a blind student, I do not believe that it should be discussed any further. Respectfully, Elizabeth > Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:22:37 -0700 > From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan > > :) And you wonder why I don't much trust talkshow hosts. On both > sides of the isle. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/11/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > > Is that Rachel Maddow? Of course, she can't be taken seriously! She's > > a propaganda-hungry liberal! > > This propaganda is not for this list. Thanks, Jorge, I concur with you > > on that one. > > Blessings, Joshua > > > > On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > >> Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this? Cause, just > >> going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case > >> outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her > >> all that seriously. Anyone wanna let me know what's really going on > >> here? (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list. Heaven > >> knows this could turn in to something crazy) > >> Best, > >> Kirt > >> > >> On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>> Andy: > >>> With all due respect, > >>> please do not post political propaganda on this list. > >>> > >>> Jorge > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: > >>> > >>>> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, > >>>> especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness > >>>> ishue, > >>>> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It > >>>> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the > >>>> worst. > >>>> It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be > >>>> done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it > >>>> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just > >>>> raise > >>>> hackles. > >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach > >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM > >>>> To: nabs-l > >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 > >>>> > >>>> Hi everyone. > >>>> > >>>> It's time for another community service conference call! We will have > >>>> much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention > >>>> service project. We will also have a discussion of summer > >>>> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope > >>>> you're on the call. > >>>> > >>>> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST > >>>> > >>>> Where: Call 218.339.3600 > >>>> Passcode: 808277 > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 01:59:28 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:59:28 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello all, I would have to whole-heartedly second Elizabeth's statement, as i would have said it myself. This list is indeed for the discussion of matters related (in some way, shape or form)to blind students. political attacks, or any attack of any sort or of any kind are not something welcomed on this list. We are a collection of students from across the country, with different ideas and prospectives, and those ideas and prospectives should be respected as they come up on this list,no matter if you do or do not agree with them. Thank you for your continued respectful and thoughtful posts, and may we continue to promote great discussions here! Respectfully, Darian Smith Board Member, National association of Blind Students On 3/11/11, Elizabeth wrote: > > I think the one thing I could totally agree with in this interview is the > last statement where the reporter claimed that this is clearly a case of > shock doctrine. Since she clearly only stated one side of the story, and > made it out to be a bit more than what it should be, I would think that her > report would serve as an example of shock doctrine rather than the actual > events themselves. > > I believe this story is so ludicrous that I am not even so sure where to > begin. However, since this is an email list of blind students from across > the country, I do not believe this is the place to discuss this particular > matter. I believe the purpose of this email list is to discuss matters > relating to being a blind student. Since this story does not have anything > to do with being a blind student, I do not believe that it should be > discussed any further. > > Respectfully, > Elizabeth > >> Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 17:22:37 -0700 >> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan >> >> :) And you wonder why I don't much trust talkshow hosts. On both >> sides of the isle. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/11/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> > Is that Rachel Maddow? Of course, she can't be taken seriously! She's >> > a propaganda-hungry liberal! >> > This propaganda is not for this list. Thanks, Jorge, I concur with you >> > on that one. >> > Blessings, Joshua >> > >> > On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> >> Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this? Cause, just >> >> going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case >> >> outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her >> >> all that seriously. Anyone wanna let me know what's really going on >> >> here? (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list. Heaven >> >> knows this could turn in to something crazy) >> >> Best, >> >> Kirt >> >> >> >> On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Andy: >> >>> With all due respect, >> >>> please do not post political propaganda on this list. >> >>> >> >>> Jorge >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, >> >>>> especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness >> >>>> ishue, >> >>>> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. >> >>>> It >> >>>> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the >> >>>> worst. >> >>>> It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must >> >>>> be >> >>>> done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it >> >>>> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just >> >>>> raise >> >>>> hackles. >> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach >> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM >> >>>> To: nabs-l >> >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 >> >>>> >> >>>> Hi everyone. >> >>>> >> >>>> It's time for another community service conference call! We will have >> >>>> much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention >> >>>> service project. We will also have a discussion of summer >> >>>> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope >> >>>> you're on the call. >> >>>> >> >>>> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST >> >>>> >> >>>> Where: Call 218.339.3600 >> >>>> Passcode: 808277 >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>>> nabs-l: >> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From kobycox at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 03:41:43 2011 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 21:41:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] CCB tudent's update and great news! In-Reply-To: <4d7aa87b.8f7edc0a.5d47.ffffb5ed@mx.google.com> References: <4d7aa87b.8f7edc0a.5d47.ffffb5ed@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <23CFC470-7D7C-4AF2-8D09-EB8A0C4DFBCA@gmail.com> Beth, Can you please email me off list? my email address is: kobycox at gmail.com Right back soon, Koby. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 11, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Beth wrote: > Dear Listservs, > I would like to tell all of you about my time at CCB. I've decided to move to Colorado, and because of family issues, am in the process of doing so now. Pray that it goes well. ome of you may also know that I was at the National Convention. I hope to see you all at conventions in Orlando and such places as that. I am graduating CCB in April, and all of you are welcome to ask me questions about the details of CCB life. Anyone who wants to come here, I'd recommend it. It's a good place to go. > Sincerely, > Beth Taurasi > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 12 04:28:33 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 23:28:33 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3616EDE7BACF433DB080124196FF7F82@OwnerPC> Andi, can you provide a more mainstream source? I saw the video you provided and it sounds like propaganda. I'm not sure who the lady is, but she sounds familiar and is definitely on the liberal side. Apparently what I can gather is that the Republican governor and Republican majority House are passing dramatic cuts. She speaks about the idea of the state government taking over city governments; she does not specifically address SSI or SSDI. I thought they were federal programs anyway. So things like food stamps may be affected but not SSI. I'm a bit moderate, but when something has scare tactits and without specific examples its propoganda. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Andi Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 6:21 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness ishue, but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the worst. It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just raise hackles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM To: nabs-l Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 Hi everyone. It's time for another community service conference call! We will have much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention service project. We will also have a discussion of summer oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope you're on the call. When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST Where: Call 218.339.3600 Passcode: 808277 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 12 04:36:38 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2011 23:36:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <653723CC7BF64873912A4CBDDBA734D5@OwnerPC> Kirt, I'm with you there; I do not trust talk show hosts unless I compare it to another news source or sources. A lot of it is just opinion and analysis. -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 7:22 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan :) And you wonder why I don't much trust talkshow hosts. On both sides of the isle. Best, Kirt On 3/11/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Is that Rachel Maddow? Of course, she can't be taken seriously! She's > a propaganda-hungry liberal! > This propaganda is not for this list. Thanks, Jorge, I concur with you > on that one. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this? Cause, just >> going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case >> outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her >> all that seriously. Anyone wanna let me know what's really going on >> here? (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list. Heaven >> knows this could turn in to something crazy) >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Andy: >>> With all due respect, >>> please do not post political propaganda on this list. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: >>> >>>> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, >>>> especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness >>>> ishue, >>>> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It >>>> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the >>>> worst. >>>> It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be >>>> done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it >>>> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just >>>> raise >>>> hackles. >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM >>>> To: nabs-l >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 >>>> >>>> Hi everyone. >>>> >>>> It's time for another community service conference call! We will have >>>> much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention >>>> service project. We will also have a discussion of summer >>>> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope >>>> you're on the call. >>>> >>>> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST >>>> >>>> Where: Call 218.339.3600 >>>> Passcode: 808277 >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sat Mar 12 05:20:38 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 00:20:38 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: <3616EDE7BACF433DB080124196FF7F82@OwnerPC> References: <3616EDE7BACF433DB080124196FF7F82@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <1D94F627-4A97-4509-A5C4-FD77D838E934@mac.com> Ashley: Not to get off topic, but isn't food stamps also a fed program? On Mar 11, 2011, at 11:28 PM, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Andi, can you provide a more mainstream source? > I saw the video you provided and it sounds like propaganda. I'm not sure who the lady is, but she sounds familiar and is definitely on the liberal side. > > Apparently what I can gather is that the Republican governor and Republican majority House are passing dramatic cuts. > She speaks about the idea of the state government taking over city governments; she does not specifically address SSI or SSDI. > I thought they were federal programs anyway. So things like food stamps may be affected but not SSI. > I'm a bit moderate, but when something has scare tactits and without specific examples its propoganda. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Andi > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 6:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan > > I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, especially > for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness ishue, but will > effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It will also > effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the worst. It is like > big brother or something headed that way. Something must be done!! Hear is > a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it could be about the > matter but gives enough details to more than just raise hackles. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM > > > > -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM > To: nabs-l > Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 > > Hi everyone. > > It's time for another community service conference call! We will have > much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention > service project. We will also have a discussion of summer > oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope > you're on the call. > > When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST > > Where: Call 218.339.3600 > Passcode: 808277 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 12 05:44:02 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 00:44:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan In-Reply-To: <1D94F627-4A97-4509-A5C4-FD77D838E934@mac.com> References: <3616EDE7BACF433DB080124196FF7F82@OwnerPC> <1D94F627-4A97-4509-A5C4-FD77D838E934@mac.com> Message-ID: <75EAD83AA1AE46BEA36A01C7012AC8A1@OwnerPC> No George. There are federal regulations, but its primarily state driven. States set the budget and eligibility for food stamps. Also housing comes through states too; its called Section 8 housing. If there are budget cuts in Michigan, they will certainly hurt anyone living off government supports, not just blind people. Yet one could argue that people with disabilities are more vunerable. Here in VA, the department of rehab services, DRS, is running out of funding. They are cutting many programs in DRS to assist their clients. The agency for the blind has a separate budget though. So DBVI is not as impacted as DRS is. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jorge Paez Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 12:20 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan Ashley: Not to get off topic, but isn't food stamps also a fed program? On Mar 11, 2011, at 11:28 PM, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Andi, can you provide a more mainstream source? > I saw the video you provided and it sounds like propaganda. I'm not sure > who the lady is, but she sounds familiar and is definitely on the liberal > side. > > Apparently what I can gather is that the Republican governor and > Republican majority House are passing dramatic cuts. > She speaks about the idea of the state government taking over city > governments; she does not specifically address SSI or SSDI. > I thought they were federal programs anyway. So things like food stamps > may be affected but not SSI. > I'm a bit moderate, but when something has scare tactits and without > specific examples its propoganda. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Andi > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2011 6:21 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan > > I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, > especially > for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness ishue, but will > effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It will also > effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the worst. It is > like > big brother or something headed that way. Something must be done!! Hear > is > a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it could be about the > matter but gives enough details to more than just raise hackles. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM > > > > -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM > To: nabs-l > Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 > > Hi everyone. > > It's time for another community service conference call! We will have > much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention > service project. We will also have a discussion of summer > oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope > you're on the call. > > When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST > > Where: Call 218.339.3600 > Passcode: 808277 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 11:30:34 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 06:30:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Hokeys for Internet and Word 2010 Message-ID: Hey guys, I had a question about flash players. Is there a hotkey to go to taflash player in a window? For example, in Youtube, if I want to go to a button within the video to pause it until I'm ready to listen to it, how do I do that without navigating through all the junk above it (links, Youtube stuff, I just want to pause the video!) And just a little poke in case anyone knows how to add headers, footers, or page numbers to a document...I still need to know how using keyboard commands. Thanks, Jewel P.S.- I'm looking for your opinions on what direction my blog should go in, trying to revive it, so check it out and write to me!-- Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 12:32:18 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 07:32:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Hokeys for Internet and Word 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7875B431D0554B70B51D441BCF6A31B1@Rufus> Jewel, What version of Word are you using where you want these headers? Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 6:31 AM To: NABS-L at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Hokeys for Internet and Word 2010 Hey guys, I had a question about flash players. Is there a hotkey to go to taflash player in a window? For example, in Youtube, if I want to go to a button within the video to pause it until I'm ready to listen to it, how do I do that without navigating through all the junk above it (links, Youtube stuff, I just want to pause the video!) And just a little poke in case anyone knows how to add headers, footers, or page numbers to a document...I still need to know how using keyboard commands. Thanks, Jewel P.S.- I'm looking for your opinions on what direction my blog should go in, trying to revive it, so check it out and write to me!-- Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 12:33:36 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 07:33:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Hokeys for Internet and Word 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B1C797BA54E4465A9C1ECCB58F45E7D@Rufus> Damn, the Word version was in the subject line. I knew that, just making sure you was awake is all. (grin) Sorry, I haven't graduated myself to that version yet, but let me know if no one else has come through for you. I'll see what I can find. Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Jewel Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 6:31 AM To: NABS-L at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Hokeys for Internet and Word 2010 Hey guys, I had a question about flash players. Is there a hotkey to go to taflash player in a window? For example, in Youtube, if I want to go to a button within the video to pause it until I'm ready to listen to it, how do I do that without navigating through all the junk above it (links, Youtube stuff, I just want to pause the video!) And just a little poke in case anyone knows how to add headers, footers, or page numbers to a document...I still need to know how using keyboard commands. Thanks, Jewel P.S.- I'm looking for your opinions on what direction my blog should go in, trying to revive it, so check it out and write to me!-- Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From serenacucco at verizon.net Sat Mar 12 15:21:50 2011 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena Cucco) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 10:21:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: Community Service meeting this sunday, March 13. Message-ID: Hi everyone, Just in case you haven't seen this ... Serena -----Original Message----- From: Darian Smith [mailto:dsmithnfb at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 4:00 AM Cc: ds94124; Community Service Discussion List Subject: Community Service meeting this sunday, March 13. Hi everyone. It's time for another community service conference call!  We will have much discussion this Sunday.  We will discuss the division - planning process, and our plans for national convention.  As a part of those plans, we will discuss a possible convention service project.  We will also have a discussion of effective  skills blind  people use to work with youth . Hope you're on the call. When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST Where: Call  218.339.3600 Passcode:  808277 * ajenda atatched From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 15:54:55 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 10:54:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] CCB student's update and great news! Message-ID: Beth, how did you get DBS to fund you going to an out of state center rather than the center in Detona? On 3/11/11, Koby Cox wrote: > Beth, Can you please email me off list? my email address is: > kobycox at gmail.com Right back soon, Koby. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 11, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Beth wrote: > >> Dear Listservs, >> I would like to tell all of you about my time at CCB. I've decided to >> move to Colorado, and because of family issues, am in the process of doing >> so now. Pray that it goes well. ome of you may also know that I was at >> the National Convention. I hope to see you all at conventions in Orlando >> and such places as that. I am graduating CCB in April, and all of you are >> welcome to ask me questions about the details of CCB life. Anyone who >> wants to come here, I'd recommend it. It's a good place to go. >> Sincerely, >> Beth Taurasi >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > From joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 15:59:18 2011 From: joltingjacksandefur at gmail.com (RJ Sandefur) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 10:59:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] CCB student's update and great news! References: Message-ID: <267008F7C99E45DCB51819510465B397@hometwxakonvzn> The Center in Daytona sucks, and I wouldn't reamend any one go to that God forsaken place! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brianna Scerenscko" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CCB student's update and great news! > Beth, how did you get DBS to fund you going to an out of state center > rather than the center in Detona? > > On 3/11/11, Koby Cox wrote: >> Beth, Can you please email me off list? my email address is: >> kobycox at gmail.com Right back soon, Koby. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 11, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Beth wrote: >> >>> Dear Listservs, >>> I would like to tell all of you about my time at CCB. I've decided >>> to >>> move to Colorado, and because of family issues, am in the process of >>> doing >>> so now. Pray that it goes well. ome of you may also know that I was at >>> the National Convention. I hope to see you all at conventions in >>> Orlando >>> and such places as that. I am graduating CCB in April, and all of you >>> are >>> welcome to ask me questions about the details of CCB life. Anyone who >>> wants to come here, I'd recommend it. It's a good place to go. >>> Sincerely, >>> Beth Taurasi >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 17:30:20 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 12:30:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Hokeys for Internet and Word 2010 In-Reply-To: <3B1C797BA54E4465A9C1ECCB58F45E7D@Rufus> References: <3B1C797BA54E4465A9C1ECCB58F45E7D@Rufus> Message-ID: Jewel, If you want to navigate directly to the flash player in YouTube, hit insert+f5. I think this should work with any version of JAWS. Patrick On 3/12/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Damn, the Word version was in the subject line. I knew that, just making > sure you was awake is all. (grin) Sorry, I haven't graduated myself to that > version yet, but let me know if no one else has come through for you. I'll > see what I can find. > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Jewel > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 6:31 AM > To: NABS-L at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Hokeys for Internet and Word 2010 > > Hey guys, > I had a question about flash players. Is there a hotkey to go to > taflash player in a window? For example, in Youtube, if I want to go > to a button within the video to pause it until I'm ready to listen to > it, how do I do that without navigating through all the junk above it > (links, Youtube stuff, I just want to pause the video!) > > And just a little poke in case anyone knows how to add headers, > footers, or page numbers to a document...I still need to know how > using keyboard commands. > > Thanks, > Jewel > P.S.- I'm looking for your opinions on what direction my blog should > go in, trying to revive it, so check it out and write to me!-- > Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 18:25:09 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 12:25:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] improving our divisions Message-ID: <000c01cbe0e2$d27e14a0$777a3de0$@com> Not to split hairs here, but the Student Slate has come out every quarter, September, December, March and June, since this board was elected. That is not "fairly" regularly, that is clockwork. Karen Anderson and I promised that we would adhere to a schedule of quarterly publication, and we, with the help of many of you who have written or helped to find articles, have done exactly that. This is the first time in my limited memory that this has been achieved, and, if I get the chance, I hope to do the same over the next two years. I really encourage everybody on the list to at least glance through each issue to see if there are articles that pique your interest. I feel that we have, generally speaking, had a very high level of quality in the articles we have put out. The March 2011 issue will be out shortly for those who are interested, and back issues can be found on www.nabslink.org. Sorry, I'm not trying to shamelessly plug our work, but want everybody to know that the resource is out there, as many of us put a good amount of work into bringing each newsletter together. Take care, Sean From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 21:26:21 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 16:26:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Hotkeys for Internet and Word 2010 Message-ID: Thanks for that. Insert + F5 and scrolling down brought me right to the Pause button in a few seconds! Now just gotta figure out Word 2010...I can't afford the $75 book that got released...are there any other resources for learning Word 2010 with JAWS (I have JAWS 11) On 3/12/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Jewel, > If you want to navigate directly to the flash player in YouTube, hit > insert+f5. I think this should work with any version of JAWS. > Patrick > > On 3/12/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Damn, the Word version was in the subject line. I knew that, just making >> sure you was awake is all. (grin) Sorry, I haven't graduated myself to >> that >> version yet, but let me know if no one else has come through for you. >> I'll >> see what I can find. >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Jewel >> Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 6:31 AM >> To: NABS-L at nfbnet.org >> Subject: [nabs-l] Hokeys for Internet and Word 2010 >> >> Hey guys, >> I had a question about flash players. Is there a hotkey to go to >> taflash player in a window? For example, in Youtube, if I want to go >> to a button within the video to pause it until I'm ready to listen to >> it, how do I do that without navigating through all the junk above it >> (links, Youtube stuff, I just want to pause the video!) >> >> And just a little poke in case anyone knows how to add headers, >> footers, or page numbers to a document...I still need to know how >> using keyboard commands. >> >> Thanks, >> Jewel >> P.S.- I'm looking for your opinions on what direction my blog should >> go in, trying to revive it, so check it out and write to me!-- >> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > -- Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 12 23:09:08 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 18:09:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] improving our divisions In-Reply-To: <000c01cbe0e2$d27e14a0$777a3de0$@com> References: <000c01cbe0e2$d27e14a0$777a3de0$@com> Message-ID: <8954E4C55C3B456C801C4654E7BC49AE@OwnerPC> Sean, I appreciate the efforts to get the slate out regularly! I found the articles of high quality and inspiring. -----Original Message----- From: Sean Whalen Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:25 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] improving our divisions Not to split hairs here, but the Student Slate has come out every quarter, September, December, March and June, since this board was elected. That is not "fairly" regularly, that is clockwork. Karen Anderson and I promised that we would adhere to a schedule of quarterly publication, and we, with the help of many of you who have written or helped to find articles, have done exactly that. This is the first time in my limited memory that this has been achieved, and, if I get the chance, I hope to do the same over the next two years. I really encourage everybody on the list to at least glance through each issue to see if there are articles that pique your interest. I feel that we have, generally speaking, had a very high level of quality in the articles we have put out. The March 2011 issue will be out shortly for those who are interested, and back issues can be found on www.nabslink.org. Sorry, I'm not trying to shamelessly plug our work, but want everybody to know that the resource is out there, as many of us put a good amount of work into bringing each newsletter together. Take care, Sean _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 12 23:11:09 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 18:11:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] CCB student's update and great news! In-Reply-To: <267008F7C99E45DCB51819510465B397@hometwxakonvzn> References: <267008F7C99E45DCB51819510465B397@hometwxakonvzn> Message-ID: <30F07DD9B8384BE69CE6897C31CAECE7@OwnerPC> Rj, I know this list has a preference for NFB centers due to the philosophy. But remember this list is archived. Instead of saying "sucks" you might want to say this center is low quality because xxx and give examples. That to me sounds more mature. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: RJ Sandefur Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:59 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CCB student's update and great news! The Center in Daytona sucks, and I wouldn't reamend any one go to that God forsaken place! RJ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brianna Scerenscko" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CCB student's update and great news! > Beth, how did you get DBS to fund you going to an out of state center > rather than the center in Detona? > > On 3/11/11, Koby Cox wrote: >> Beth, Can you please email me off list? my email address is: >> kobycox at gmail.com Right back soon, Koby. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 11, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Beth wrote: >> >>> Dear Listservs, >>> I would like to tell all of you about my time at CCB. I've decided >>> to >>> move to Colorado, and because of family issues, am in the process of >>> doing >>> so now. Pray that it goes well. ome of you may also know that I was at >>> the National Convention. I hope to see you all at conventions in >>> Orlando >>> and such places as that. I am graduating CCB in April, and all of you >>> are >>> welcome to ask me questions about the details of CCB life. Anyone who >>> wants to come here, I'd recommend it. It's a good place to go. >>> Sincerely, >>> Beth Taurasi >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/joltingjacksandefur%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sat Mar 12 23:13:20 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 18:13:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] CCB student's update and great news! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA53D41FC3846098A0739C6C2103E76@OwnerPC> Briana, I'm not Beth. But remember you have the right to choose your service provider as part of informed choice. If your counselor says no, then you go up the chain. When that does not work, you write a letter of justification and sign it. You may have to have a formal meeting or hearing to prove your case. I did not do this but know of those who did. Also you might want to get your nfb president involved and you have to visit the state center and document why that center is different and cannot meet your needs. -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:54 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CCB student's update and great news! Beth, how did you get DBS to fund you going to an out of state center rather than the center in Detona? On 3/11/11, Koby Cox wrote: > Beth, Can you please email me off list? my email address is: > kobycox at gmail.com Right back soon, Koby. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 11, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Beth wrote: > >> Dear Listservs, >> I would like to tell all of you about my time at CCB. I've decided to >> move to Colorado, and because of family issues, am in the process of >> doing >> so now. Pray that it goes well. ome of you may also know that I was at >> the National Convention. I hope to see you all at conventions in Orlando >> and such places as that. I am graduating CCB in April, and all of you >> are >> welcome to ask me questions about the details of CCB life. Anyone who >> wants to come here, I'd recommend it. It's a good place to go. >> Sincerely, >> Beth Taurasi >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 03:31:12 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 20:31:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] CCB student's update and great news! In-Reply-To: <4EA53D41FC3846098A0739C6C2103E76@OwnerPC> References: <4EA53D41FC3846098A0739C6C2103E76@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, At least the guy was honest...that counts a bit more than political correctness in my book. Even though you're probably right, what a shame. Best, Kirt On 3/12/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Briana, > I'm not Beth. But remember you have the right to choose your service > provider as part of informed choice. > If your counselor says no, then you go up the chain. When that does not > work, you write a letter of justification and sign it. > You may have to have a formal meeting or hearing to prove your case. I did > not do this but know of those who did. > Also you might want to get your nfb president involved and you have to visit > the state center and document why that center is different and cannot meet > your needs. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brianna Scerenscko > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 10:54 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] CCB student's update and great news! > > Beth, how did you get DBS to fund you going to an out of state center > rather than the center in Detona? > > On 3/11/11, Koby Cox wrote: >> Beth, Can you please email me off list? my email address is: >> kobycox at gmail.com Right back soon, Koby. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 11, 2011, at 4:55 PM, Beth wrote: >> >>> Dear Listservs, >>> I would like to tell all of you about my time at CCB. I've decided to >>> move to Colorado, and because of family issues, am in the process of >>> doing >>> so now. Pray that it goes well. ome of you may also know that I was at >>> the National Convention. I hope to see you all at conventions in Orlando >>> and such places as that. I am graduating CCB in April, and all of you >>> are >>> welcome to ask me questions about the details of CCB life. Anyone who >>> wants to come here, I'd recommend it. It's a good place to go. >>> Sincerely, >>> Beth Taurasi >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 03:55:20 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 22:55:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations Message-ID: <20110313035520.28391.15499@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> The NFB was NEVER anti-rehab counselors. But we are anti-low expectations. There is a huge difference. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. > After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' > expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She > wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the > state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my > major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, > being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. > All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone > that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua > On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi all, >> Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your goals? >> I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for several >> reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the future >> I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on teaching >> blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in >> communications, development, something human services, or clerical support. >> I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern >> program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I won’t >> get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the community >> there. >> My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is >> encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public >> sector! >> Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, rather >> than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit >> yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your commute is >> reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? >> I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for clients. >> Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I know we >> should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, not >> blindness. >> Okay just had to vent some. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Mar 13 04:02:16 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 22:02:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] rehab counselors and expectations In-Reply-To: <20110313035520.28391.15499@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> References: <20110313035520.28391.15499@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: To answer the question, I think the lyrics to the Blind Inc song are, "You better fight, for the right!" There's a verse about going to an NFB center, and the rehab counselor telling the students, "no." If there's anyone who is a part of Blind Inc, please give us the lyrics to the song. I couldn't understand all of it at the karaoke. Thanks, Joshua On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: > The NFB was NEVER anti-rehab counselors. But we are anti-low > expectations. There is a huge difference. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> The NFB has been rather anti-rehab counselors, from the beginning. >> After all, The Blind Inc song tells about how the rehab counselors' >> expectations are much too low. Mine wasn't supportive at all. She >> wouldn't let me go to ORU, (Oral Roberts University,) because the >> state wouldn't pay for it. I wanted to be in the ministry, but my >> major would have been music. Now, why wouldn't the state pay for it, >> being that I was planning on going for a music major? I don't know. >> All I can say is that I'm glad she's out of there, and I have someone >> that cares about me, and my wishes. Blessings, Joshua > >> On 3/5/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Hi all, > >>> Has your vocational rehab, vr, counselor been supportive of your goals? >>> I don’t feel mine is. First I wanted to go into education, but for >>> several >>> reasons got discouraged and decided against it for now; maybe in the >>> future >>> I can go to grad school for a masters in education with emphasis on >>> teaching >>> blind/visually impaired students. But for now, I want a job in >>> communications, development, something human services, or clerical >>> support. >>> I’m pretty open. I got several federal internships through the intern >>> program WRP, but don’t want to work in the government. I just feel I >>> won’t >>> get much work in my job and will not be able to do outreach to the >>> community >>> there. > >>> My vr counselor discouraged education or childcare. Now I feel she is >>> encouraging me and all clients for that matter, to go into the public >>> sector! >>> Another comment that bothered me was to look for jobs near my home, >>> rather >>> than in the more urban city area where I was looking. Gee, why limit >>> yourself! Why not get a job near transportation as long as your commute >>> is >>> reasonable! Why limit myself to one location? > >>> I feel as if counselors don’t have the highest expectations for clients. >>> Fortunately, I know successful blind people working in many areas; I know >>> we >>> should be defined by our other strength and abilities and interests, not >>> blindness. > >>> Okay just had to vent some. >>> Ashley >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 04:09:51 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:09:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313040951.11744.86462@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> When it comes to other disabilities, I think we reflect the broad views of disability held by the general public. I think that because some of us are unfamiliar with other disabilities, these disabilities might seem like serious handicaps rather than characteristics similar to blindness. However, those of us who are more familiar might think that other forms of disabilitiy represent an even broader array of human characteristics that have some inherent limitations and advantages. Still others of us might range in familiarity with other disabilities, but still be able to apply jernigan's philosophy of blindness as a characteristic. And finally, there will be those who, regardless of familiarity or philosophy, will always see other disabilities as seriously handicapping conditions. If anything, we will have to understand our blindness in the context of other disabilities and visa-versa; I'm hoping that we will learn to apply Jernigan's philosophy to other disabilities as well as our own. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi Brice, > You bring to light a very interesting point. I seem to notice a > similar trend. Now, one can argue that people with multiple > disabilities are the case outside the blind community, but that > wouldn't be the point here. > a question that might be worth asking is how will we adjust to > this. How do we interact with the deaf-blind members of our > organization? for example. > do we view other disabilities as we view blindness, or do we view > other disabilities like the general public does blindness? > just some thought, not so much answers, as I don't think I could > begain to attempt to fashonone. > Darian > On 3/7/11, Brice Smith wrote: >> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >> disabilities. >> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >> this mean for our future? >> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >> and years to come. >> Any thoughts are welcome. >> Brice >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > — Robert Byrne > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 04:13:06 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:13:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <20110313041306.28689.74267@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> As Edgar Shein points out in his research on organizations, each organization has a culture and it is seldom entirely unified. However, I do think that NABS might be less likely to have a unified opinion on things because we have a membership that's constantly in flux; many of our members are quite new to the NFB and so might not be fully aware of our philosophy and how it functions. This is true in other NFB divisions, but it especially seems true with NABS. I've heard that NABS has always exhibited this characteristic from past NABS members. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi all, > Could I get your thoughts on something?...... > How unified do you think we are as a large division of students in the NFB? > We represent most of, if not all of the states, and have a wide > aray of talents, prospectives and ideas. We have leaders, we have > student divisions in our states, but do you think we are as united > as we can and should be? > Are we as united as, say our state affiliates? > If you think the answer is "no", what do you think it will take from > each of us to make this happen? > Darian > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > — Robert Byrne > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 04:18:24 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:18:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313041824.28348.8763@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> What complicates the issue is that there is a lot of variation in how multiply disabled persons view each of their disabilities in turn. I had an opportunity to visit the deaf-blind division and was seriously disappointed. I hoped that the division would have as positive philosophy about their deafness as they did about their blindness. Instead, I found that they treated their hearing loss as most sighted people treat vision loss: they tried to maximize their hearing and seemed like they didn't want to be identified as deaf. I hope things have changed since then; I visited in 2004, I think. I'm pretty sure that there are other deaf-blind individuals who feel differently about their deafness; differences like these may make it difficult to form a unified division such as the deaf-blind division. Hell, if i were deaf, I'd just apply Jernigan's philosophy and move on from there. I'd learn the alternative techniques of deafness, integrate them with my alternative techniques of blindness, learn about new and exciting technologies and techniques for achieving whatever I'd like to achieve, and have a good time at it. That's just me though. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: >> Marsha: > I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. > Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we > as the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. > Jorge > On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are hearing >> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard of >> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as say >> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or whatever >> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the NFB? >> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who can't >> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that has >> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. But >> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for their >> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge others >> for the additional disabilities they may have. >> Just my two cents, >> Marsha >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Brice Smith >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >> disabilities. >> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >> this mean for our future? >> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >> and years to come. >> Any thoughts are welcome. >> Brice >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >> l.com >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> http://www.eset.com >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> http://www.eset.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 04:24:50 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:24:50 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313042450.28483.75943@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Ah, but then don't we assume that multi-disabled persons do better in sheltered shops more than in "the real world?" Something to think about. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > For example, what if we pushed for rehab agencies to shut down > sheltered workshops because many blind people were placed there > wrongfully. What happens to the people with multiple disabilities, > which may include blindness, whose lives may have been better from > working at these workshops? > On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Brice Smith wrote: >> Kirt, >> While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, >> reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. >> Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their >> resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our >> organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve >> self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for >> collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help >> people with additional disabilities in this framework without >> compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always >> happen. >> Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with >> our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak >> directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we do >> when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in the >> future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the >> cutting-edge? >> As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a question >> that we need to consider as we move forward. >> Brice >> On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >>> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other >>> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and >>> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially >>> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, >>> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of >>> us love complaining about. >>> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >>> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >>> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >>> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same >>> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as >>> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >>> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >>> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >>> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >>> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >>> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >>> disabilities, not just blindness. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> Marsha: >>>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >>>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >>>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >>>> Jorge >>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>>>> hearing >>>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>>>> of >>>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>>>> say >>>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>>> whatever >>>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>>>> NFB? >>>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>>>> can't >>>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>>>> has >>>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>>>> But >>>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>>>> their >>>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>>> others >>>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>>>> Just my two cents, >>>>> Marsha >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Brice Smith >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>>>> disabilities. >>>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>>>> this mean for our future? >>>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>>>> and years to come. >>>>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>>>> Brice >>>>> -- >>>>> Brice Smith >>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>>>> l.com >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> signature >>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> signature >>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From djdrocks4ever at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 04:29:01 2011 From: djdrocks4ever at gmail.com (NabslinkAudioWebMaster) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:29:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Message-ID: Greetings! This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. Title: The Nabs Conference Call For March 2011 Description: On this call, we had the chance to hear about the summer programs offered by four of the leading training centers in the country: The three major centers in Minnesota (Blind Inc), Colorado (The Colorado Center For The Blind), Louisiana (The Louisiana Center For The Blind), and Baltimore (Bysm) Learn about the various summer programs that these fine centers offer, and how you can get involved. You can download the show directly at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/March2011Call.mp3 Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations to hear some of the other calls we've done. Best regards, David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee http://www.nabslinkaudio.org http://www.nabslink.org From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 04:35:43 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:35:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313043543.11790.74486@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Please forgive me for what I'm about to say as it might seem quite blunt. On the other hand, I think it needs to be said. I believe that we as blind people (and especially blind people with other disabilities) set low expectations for ourselves, meet them and don't go outside of them, thus fulfill our own low expectations and the prophecies that come with them. I do think that training at a center is a good idea for people who want to improve their skill sets or for people who didn't have access to good training from the beginning. I also think that we do tend to set our expectations low, then get defensive when someone else challenges these low expectations with something we don't want to hear; we do this to rationalize our low expectations and thus maintain the status quo. I think we've got to be careful as it's so easy to do. I've seen people with multiple disabilities come leaps and bounds after working at one of our centers. I've also seen multi-disabled people battle low expectations about their other disabilities while at our centers. It frustrates me, but there you have it. The bottom line is that we, as Jernigan pointed out so many times, are a reflection of our own society; we also tend to accept social biases and expectation levels. Therefore, we absolutely must not take anything for granted and consider the possibility that we are selling ourselves short (or selling others short). The next time (Marsha) that someone challenges you to go to a center, don't take it as a judgement regarding your skills or your various disabilities, consider it as a challenge to grow and find new and exciting ways to accomplish what you currently think of as overwhelming or altogether impossible. I'm encouraging you to think of it this way because I truly think that was the spirit in which the challenge to attend a center was meant. I'm not defending anyone's rudeness, I'm just saying. Respectfully Submitted, Jedi Original message: > Marsha, > I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you told that individual that you have a > hearing loss and that presented additional challenges. > Why is it that some judgemental people in NFB feel any deficit such as > travel skills can be rectified by attending a center? > People can have other challenges; teaching you can only go so far. For > instance I've known people who received cane training for years, some > structured discovery, some traditional, who cannot walk straight and they > veer on streets. Others have trouble crossing streets and either may get > assistance with it or ask for an audible signal; training, such as > interpreting sound cues, can only go so far. You got to have some sense of > direction for it to work well. > Hotels are hard for anyone to navigate; especially big ones like conventions > are in. > As much as we talk independence, sight does help navigate crowds. > Know why Jernigan and now Dr. Maurer have sighted guides often? > Its faster and efficient! > In new open areas, that is faster. > Joshua said he needs help in unfamiliar places and sticks to learned routes > in those spots. > I'm a good cane traveler, but the orientation part is challenging; mobility > part I can do; I just have trouble making mental maps and organizing space. > Certainly I've traveled alone a bit in hotels including for state > convention, but I memorize main things like where the elevator is. > I've seen people judged also for not reading braille efficiently or fast. > It may be a number of reasons such as tactile sensativity is lacking. > I hope nfb comes more open in the future. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Marsha Drenth > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:02 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Kirt, > Very well said. And I agree completely. As a blind person, as a person with > other disabilities, I never ever judge anyone for their abilities or their > lack of skills, or the alternative ways they may do something. I do not > judge others, because I do not want to be judged. > Prime example, at the national convention. It's a huge hotel, I got a little > disorientated. Granted I have been in this hotel 3 times now. And when I > asked for help, I was treated as though my skills were not "good enough". > Its not my skills that need help, its my ears that do not work. And when I > explained this to said person I asked for help from, they said I needed to > go to a center for training. The hotel in Detroit was a nightmare for me to > navigate. > Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. I am not even saying any of you would be > so judgmental, but people do need to think of these things. > Marsha > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, > I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other > disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and > ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially > within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, > we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of > us love complaining about. > True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does > blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. > Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it > impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same > techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as > a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking > about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to > blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone > who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not > who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each > other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and > disabilities, not just blindness. > Best, > Kirt > On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Marsha: >> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >> Jorge >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are > hearing >>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>> of >>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>> say >>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>> whatever >>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>> NFB? >>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who > can't >>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>> has >>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>> But >>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>> their >>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>> others >>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>> Just my two cents, >>> Marsha >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Brice Smith >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>> disabilities. >>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>> this mean for our future? >>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>> and years to come. >>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>> Brice >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>> l.com >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> http://www.eset.com >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> http://www.eset.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai > l.com > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > http://www.eset.com > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 04:57:56 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:57:56 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313045756.11790.27777@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Joe, > Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may > gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the > arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I > think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless > we learn to be more inclusive. > But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago > because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a > whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, > assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple > disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more > important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do > something in the future. > to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity > and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at > what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we > protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it > time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the > organization? > I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > Brice > On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Brice, >> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should do >> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only disability >> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. Instead, >> tell us what you think should happen. >> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been >> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people >> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were >> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel inferior >> without your consent." >> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not being >> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access to >> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus on >> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >> promoting? >> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when power-hungry >> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. Third, >> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were president >> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are >> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so much >> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that if >> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to exist >> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is to >> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the organization >> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about what >> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing >> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make a >> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique needs. >> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >> Joe >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 05:39:31 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 22:39:31 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <20110313045756.11790.27777@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> References: <20110313045756.11790.27777@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, anyone? Am I missing the mark? Best, Kirt On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: > There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs > to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally > ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Joe, > >> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >> we learn to be more inclusive. > >> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >> something in the future. > >> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >> organization? > >> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > >> Brice > >> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> Brice, > >>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should >>> do >>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>> disability >>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>> Instead, >>> tell us what you think should happen. > >>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>> been >>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>> people >>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>> were >>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>> inferior >>> without your consent." > >>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >>> being >>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access >>> to >>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus >>> on >>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >>> promoting? > >>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>> power-hungry >>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>> Third, >>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>> president >>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. > >>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You >>> are >>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >>> much >>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that >>> if >>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>> exist >>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is >>> to >>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>> organization >>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >>> what >>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>> doing >>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make >>> a >>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>> needs. > >>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, > >>> Joe > >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>> sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > > > >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 05:48:21 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 00:48:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan Message-ID: <20110313054821.12249.5194@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> They're just as propaganda-hungry as the die-hard liberal talkshow hosts. Just a thought. Bottom line is that one must consider all points of view, all facts, and then make their own decisions and do what's right according to their own values. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Bill ORieley, and Mike Huckabee, are the most trusted. I also like Glenn Beck. > Kirt, Beck is a Morman, (I thought I'd throw that out there.) > Blessings, Joshua > On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> :) And you wonder why I don't much trust talkshow hosts. On both >> sides of the isle. >> Best, >> Kirt >> On 3/11/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> Is that Rachel Maddow? Of course, she can't be taken seriously! She's >>> a propaganda-hungry liberal! >>> This propaganda is not for this list. Thanks, Jorge, I concur with you >>> on that one. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this? Cause, just >>>> going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case >>>> outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her >>>> all that seriously. Anyone wanna let me know what's really going on >>>> here? (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list. Heaven >>>> knows this could turn in to something crazy) >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> Andy: >>>>> With all due respect, >>>>> please do not post political propaganda on this list. >>>>> Jorge >>>>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: >>>>>> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, >>>>>> especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness >>>>>> ishue, >>>>>> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It >>>>>> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the >>>>>> worst. >>>>>> It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be >>>>>> done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it >>>>>> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just >>>>>> raise >>>>>> hackles. >>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 >>>>>> Hi everyone. >>>>>> It's time for another community service conference call! We will have >>>>>> much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention >>>>>> service project. We will also have a discussion of summer >>>>>> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope >>>>>> you're on the call. >>>>>> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST >>>>>> Where: Call 218.339.3600 >>>>>> Passcode: 808277 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey%40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 06:06:53 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:06:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313060653.29087.71137@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with ours. The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that could be considered a major cultural grouping. A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about any reason under the sun. I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to the role of disability in our lives. Respectfully submitted Original message: > Jedi, > I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability > culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other > disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, > for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever > culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as > possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of > how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to > me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, > even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If > part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to > each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, > anyone? Am I missing the mark? > Best, > Kirt > On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >> There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs >> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. >> Respectfully Submitted >> Original message: >>> Joe, >>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >>> we learn to be more inclusive. >>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >>> something in the future. >>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>> organization? >>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. >>> Brice >>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>> Brice, >>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should >>>> do >>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>> disability >>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>> Instead, >>>> tell us what you think should happen. >>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>>> been >>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>> people >>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>>> were >>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>> inferior >>>> without your consent." >>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >>>> being >>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access >>>> to >>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus >>>> on >>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >>>> promoting? >>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>> power-hungry >>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>> Third, >>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>> president >>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You >>>> are >>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >>>> much >>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that >>>> if >>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>>> exist >>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is >>>> to >>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>> organization >>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >>>> what >>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>>> doing >>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make >>>> a >>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>>> needs. >>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >>>> Joe >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>> sleeves, >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 06:18:26 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:18:26 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <20110313060653.29087.71137@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> References: <20110313060653.29087.71137@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, Fair enough...I'm not up for arguing, especially when lots of it would probably involve semantics. I forfit, you win. :) All I will say is that your analysis seems a little too cut-and-dry to me, and there's very much a grey area between your four cultures. Maybe I belong to all four...heck, I probably do. But that seems like it excludes me from one or the other, because I'm not committed enough to any particular organization and I'm not really "anti" any of them. In your definition, we're all part of all sorts of cultures...which begs a very important question and, I would say, brings this thread full circle. You said culture is a set of shared common beliefs that members adhear to. What, pray tell, are the common beliefs of the NFB? I'm not sure that question's as easy to answer as it used to be. Best, Kirt On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: > Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether > or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless > that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with ours. > > The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can > identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the > unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of > the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the > foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated > professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that > could be considered a major cultural grouping. > > A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding > human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, > etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not > mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures > concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true > that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly > identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about > any reason under the sun. > > I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take > some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the > task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically > speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to > such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB > without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that > make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and > these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, > but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some > disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify > with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with > which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to > the role of disability in our lives. > > Respectfully submitted > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to >> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >> Best, >> Kirt > >> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs >>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. > >>> Respectfully Submitted > >>> Original message: >>>> Joe, > >>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >>>> we learn to be more inclusive. > >>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >>>> something in the future. > >>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>>> organization? > >>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > >>>> Brice > >>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>> Brice, > >>>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization >>>>> should >>>>> do >>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>>> disability >>>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>>> Instead, >>>>> tell us what you think should happen. > >>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>>>> been >>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>>> people >>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>>>> were >>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of >>>>> travel >>>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people >>>>> where >>>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>>> inferior >>>>> without your consent." > >>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >>>>> being >>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal >>>>> access >>>>> to >>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply >>>>> be >>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that >>>>> focus >>>>> on >>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, >>>>> it >>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >>>>> promoting? > >>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>>> power-hungry >>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>>> Third, >>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>>> president >>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >>>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within >>>>> our >>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. > >>>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You >>>>> are >>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >>>>> much >>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time >>>>> acting, >>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea >>>>> that >>>>> if >>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>>>> exist >>>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities >>>>> is >>>>> to >>>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>>> organization >>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few >>>>> years >>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would >>>>> be >>>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their >>>>> act >>>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >>>>> what >>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>>>> doing >>>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to >>>>> make >>>>> a >>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be >>>>> addressed, >>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make >>>>> a >>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>>>> needs. > >>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, > >>>>> Joe > >>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>>> sleeves, >>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > > > >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 12:48:52 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 08:48:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] improving our divisions In-Reply-To: <8954E4C55C3B456C801C4654E7BC49AE@OwnerPC> References: <000c01cbe0e2$d27e14a0$777a3de0$@com> <8954E4C55C3B456C801C4654E7BC49AE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Sean, I also appreciate the Slate a lot. It's a good newsletter. Are you on the NFB Editors list? We've been talking about newsletter construction lately. On 3/12/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Sean, > I appreciate the efforts to get the slate out regularly! I found the > articles of high quality and > inspiring. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean Whalen > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] improving our divisions > > Not to split hairs here, but the Student Slate has come out every quarter, > September, December, March and June, since this board was elected. That is > not "fairly" regularly, that is clockwork. Karen Anderson and I promised > that we would adhere to a schedule of quarterly publication, and we, with > the help of many of you who have written or helped to find articles, have > done exactly that. This is the first time in my limited memory that this has > been achieved, and, if I get the chance, I hope to do the same over the next > two years. I really encourage everybody on the list to at least glance > through each issue to see if there are articles that pique your interest. I > feel that we have, generally speaking, had a very high level of quality in > the articles we have put out. The March 2011 issue will be out shortly for > those who are interested, and back issues can be found on www.nabslink.org. > > > > Sorry, I'm not trying to shamelessly plug our work, but want everybody to > know that the resource is out there, as many of us put a good amount of work > into bringing each newsletter together. > > > > Take care, > > > > Sean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > -- Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 17:14:39 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:14:39 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Hotkeys for Internet and Word 2010 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The one thing I can think of would be to hit Insert+F1 twice quickly. That will take you into the JAWS help files. From there, you can bring up whole long lists of JAWS hot keys. Aside from that, I don't know of anything else. I myself am not familiar with Word 2010, but I hear it's quite complicated. Best of luck, Patrick On 3/12/11, Jewel wrote: > Thanks for that. Insert + F5 and scrolling down brought me right to > the Pause button in a few seconds! Now just gotta figure out Word > 2010...I can't afford the $75 book that got released...are there any > other resources for learning Word 2010 with JAWS (I have JAWS 11) > > On 3/12/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Jewel, >> If you want to navigate directly to the flash player in YouTube, hit >> insert+f5. I think this should work with any version of JAWS. >> Patrick >> >> On 3/12/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> Damn, the Word version was in the subject line. I knew that, just making >>> sure you was awake is all. (grin) Sorry, I haven't graduated myself to >>> that >>> version yet, but let me know if no one else has come through for you. >>> I'll >>> see what I can find. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>> sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Jewel >>> Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 6:31 AM >>> To: NABS-L at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Hokeys for Internet and Word 2010 >>> >>> Hey guys, >>> I had a question about flash players. Is there a hotkey to go to >>> taflash player in a window? For example, in Youtube, if I want to go >>> to a button within the video to pause it until I'm ready to listen to >>> it, how do I do that without navigating through all the junk above it >>> (links, Youtube stuff, I just want to pause the video!) >>> >>> And just a little poke in case anyone knows how to add headers, >>> footers, or page numbers to a document...I still need to know how >>> using keyboard commands. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jewel >>> P.S.- I'm looking for your opinions on what direction my blog should >>> go in, trying to revive it, so check it out and write to me!-- >>> Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! > Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 18:30:29 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:30:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <002a01cbe1ac$bbdb7f60$33927e20$@com> Kirt, I don't think you miss the mark at all, and I think to dismiss your eminently reasonable point of view with some blanket statements about culture is a bit presumptuous. I am not at all familiar with the anthropological body of work on the question, but I would be willing to bet that there are at least some respected opinions in opposition to those which Jedi has put forth. I couldn't tell you a damn thing about intersectionality, but I can tell you that it is by no means an accepted fact that there is an "NFB culture." I, frankly, don't even believe that there is such a thing as a blindness culture, though that is perhaps a somewhat easier proposition for which to argue. NFB is just an organization of individuals, with their own individual opinions, that must reach common statements of policy and position. Yes, there are some core beliefs that most members build their own personal philosophies around, and, yes, that is, to my mind, a good thing. But the idea that NFB membership is either such a central component of, or so all-encompassingly pertinent to, my life and life goals that I identify fellow members as people with whom I share a common culture simply doesn't hold true. And that is coming from an individual who happens to spend a lot of time and effort on the NFB. Do I share a culture with those who share my commitment to social justice? Proponents of religious pluralism and tolerance? Disabled folks in general? Green Bay Packer fans? University of Wisconsin graduates? Lawyers and wanna be lawyers? I don't think so. Common values alone do not entail common cultures. Nor do common beliefs, traditions, or interests. Again, when I use the word "culture' I use it in the commonly understood and widely accepted sense of the word. I don't dispute that there may exist some anthropological or sociological conceptions of culture that might be so broad as to include NFB membership as a culturally defining characteristic. I would just posit that those definitions are not terribly useful in talking about the real world, and would be curious as to how many distinct cultures one can belong to without severely limiting the threshold of importance or prominence in one's life a "cultural identity" must reach to be considered in any way instructive about a person. All the best, Sean From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 18:34:11 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:34:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313183411.21336.86069@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> You're absolutely right. It is possible to belong to many blindness cultures at the same time. As far as I'm concerned, it would be quite difficult to do so because there are radical differences between each of them, so it would seem very difficult to belong to several of them because they often contradict each other on some very deep levels. That's not to say that they don't share certain aspects in common; they most certainly do. In a given culture, there are artifacts, values, and assumptions. Artifacts are things that a culture uses like language or customs. Artifacts also include things and processes for daily living. So in the NFB, our artifacts include the special phrases we use like "With training and opportunity, a blind person can do the average job in the average place of business and do it as well as a sighted person similarly situated." Another artifact might be the characteristic long white cane that many of us use. Artifacts also include symbols; the Louis Braille coin and even the Blind Driver Challenge are symbolic in a way; other examples include the original NFB seal with the circle and triangle or Whozit. All of these artifacts point to some value or assumption that we make about life and our place in it. We share some common artifacts with other cultures like Braille and the cane or guide dog, but we also have some pretty unique artifacts. We have some values that are are unique to us in the blindness community, but they share much in common with values held by the greater American society to which we belong. I suspect this sharing of values is what allows us to have discussions about integration. In this context, values have mostly to do with a blind person's place in life, but can also be applied to life in general. Some of our values include independence in the world outside the organization, togetherness in the world inside the organization, innovation, punctuality, human relationships, etc. This is by no means an exhaustive list, and many of these values are easily found in other blindness cultures and cultures broadly speaking. But the combination of independence, collective action, and innovation are pretty unique to our sector of the blindness community, especially when one considers the assumptions from which these values are derived. Assumptions are taken-for-granted principles that we all agree on at the most basic level. These are the beliefs that shape and influence everything else in our culture. They're the things we come back to no matter what we argue about. So these are "of course" statements. For example "Of course blind people can be independent." or "Of course it's respectable to be blind." There are many more assumptions that we have, this is by no means an exhaustive list. If you want to know a culture's artifacts, values, and assumptions, just look around. With ours particularly, these can be found in our literature, at our conventions, and anywhere else where a good number of us get together. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Jedi, > Fair enough...I'm not up for arguing, especially when lots of it > would probably involve semantics. I forfit, you win. :) All I will > say is that your analysis seems a little too cut-and-dry to me, and > there's very much a grey area between your four cultures. Maybe I > belong to all four...heck, I probably do. But that seems like it > excludes me from one or the other, because I'm not committed enough to > any particular organization and I'm not really "anti" any of them. In > your definition, we're all part of all sorts of cultures...which begs > a very important question and, I would say, brings this thread full > circle. You said culture is a set of shared common beliefs that > members adhear to. What, pray tell, are the common beliefs of the > NFB? I'm not sure that question's as easy to answer as it used to be. > Best, > Kirt > On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >> Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether >> or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless >> that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with ours. >> The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can >> identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the >> unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of >> the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the >> foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated >> professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that >> could be considered a major cultural grouping. >> A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding >> human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, >> etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not >> mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures >> concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true >> that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly >> identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about >> any reason under the sun. >> I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take >> some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the >> task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically >> speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to >> such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB >> without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that >> make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and >> these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, >> but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some >> disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify >> with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with >> which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to >> the role of disability in our lives. >> Respectfully submitted >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >>> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >>> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >>> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >>> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >>> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >>> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >>> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >>> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >>> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to >>> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >>> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs >>>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >>>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. >>>> Respectfully Submitted >>>> Original message: >>>>> Joe, >>>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >>>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >>>>> we learn to be more inclusive. >>>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >>>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >>>>> something in the future. >>>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >>>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>>>> organization? >>>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. >>>>> Brice >>>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>>> Brice, >>>>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization >>>>>> should >>>>>> do >>>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>>>> disability >>>>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>>>> Instead, >>>>>> tell us what you think should happen. >>>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >>>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>>>>> been >>>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>>>> people >>>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>>>>> were >>>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of >>>>>> travel >>>>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people >>>>>> where >>>>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>>>> inferior >>>>>> without your consent." >>>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >>>>>> being >>>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal >>>>>> access >>>>>> to >>>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply >>>>>> be >>>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that >>>>>> focus >>>>>> on >>>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, >>>>>> it >>>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >>>>>> promoting? >>>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>>>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>>>> power-hungry >>>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>>>> Third, >>>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>>>> president >>>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >>>>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >>>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within >>>>>> our >>>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >>>>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You >>>>>> are >>>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >>>>>> much >>>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time >>>>>> acting, >>>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea >>>>>> that >>>>>> if >>>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>>>>> exist >>>>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>>>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities >>>>>> is >>>>>> to >>>>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>>>> organization >>>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few >>>>>> years >>>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would >>>>>> be >>>>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their >>>>>> act >>>>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >>>>>> what >>>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>>>>> doing >>>>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to >>>>>> make >>>>>> a >>>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be >>>>>> addressed, >>>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make >>>>>> a >>>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>>>>> needs. >>>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>>>> sleeves, >>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>> -- >>>>> Brice Smith >>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From kramc11 at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 18:34:12 2011 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:34:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Kenneth Jernigan quote In-Reply-To: References: <20110313060653.29087.71137@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <9154B0DAB8164190932F50A38E488701@VaioLaptop> I am looking for a quote by Kenneth Jernigan and I can't seem to locate it. The quote is something like, when responding to the question of what job can a blind person not due, he said something like be a fighter pilot. Any help locating this quote would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Mark From dandrews at visi.com Sun Mar 13 18:38:48 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:38:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <002a01cbe1ac$bbdb7f60$33927e20$@com> References: <002a01cbe1ac$bbdb7f60$33927e20$@com> Message-ID: From what I know, many people in the deaf community believe there is a "deaf culture" and are active in nurturing and protecting it. In the NFB, one of our goals is to integrate blind persons into society, so we are consequently going to be less interested in creating, nurturing, or protecting a blind culture. It may or may not exist -- it depends on how you define it, and who you ask. David Andrews At 01:30 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >Kirt, > > > >I don't think you miss the mark at all, and I think to dismiss your >eminently reasonable point of view with some blanket statements about >culture is a bit presumptuous. I am not at all familiar with the >anthropological body of work on the question, but I would be willing to bet >that there are at least some respected opinions in opposition to those which >Jedi has put forth. I couldn't tell you a damn thing about >intersectionality, but I can tell you that it is by no means an accepted >fact that there is an "NFB culture." I, frankly, don't even believe that >there is such a thing as a blindness culture, though that is perhaps a >somewhat easier proposition for which to argue. > > > >NFB is just an organization of individuals, with their own individual >opinions, that must reach common statements of policy and position. Yes, >there are some core beliefs that most members build their own personal >philosophies around, and, yes, that is, to my mind, a good thing. But the >idea that NFB membership is either such a central component of, or so >all-encompassingly pertinent to, my life and life goals that I identify >fellow members as people with whom I share a common culture simply doesn't >hold true. And that is coming from an individual who happens to spend a lot >of time and effort on the NFB. Do I share a culture with those who share my >commitment to social justice? Proponents of religious pluralism and >tolerance? Disabled folks in general? Green Bay Packer fans? University of >Wisconsin graduates? Lawyers and wanna be lawyers? I don't think so. Common >values alone do not entail common cultures. Nor do common beliefs, >traditions, or interests. > > > >Again, when I use the word "culture' I use it in the commonly understood and >widely accepted sense of the word. I don't dispute that there may exist some >anthropological or sociological conceptions of culture that might be so >broad as to include NFB membership as a culturally defining characteristic. >I would just posit that those definitions are not terribly useful in talking >about the real world, and would be curious as to how many distinct cultures >one can belong to without severely limiting the threshold of importance or >prominence in one's life a "cultural identity" must reach to be considered >in any way instructive about a person. > > > >All the best, > > > >Sean From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 18:47:25 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:47:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313184725.21587.52606@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Sean, I agree with you that a person's bundle of identities is really quite complex. I also agree that we place a certain amount of importance on each identity depending on our own core beliefs and goals. Further, I agree that the NFB is an organization of individuals making decisions and agreements on what should be done about a given topic. And yes, the definition of culture in sociological terms has been recently broadened (recently being the late 80's) to include a wider array of cultures and co-cultures. Interestingly, part of that definition now includes organizations, particularly if the organization plays a major role in an individual's life. And you're definitley right about the fact that there's currently an argument about whether or not the disabled population has a culture, whether or not the blind have a culture, and whether or not the NFB is a culture. I think now is a good time to start hashing that stuff out because it's a good idea to get to know ourselves better. I personally think it's useful to consider ourselves a culture because it helps me to understand why we do what we do. that said, I also believe, as I've said earlier, that one can belong to multiple cultures and so I believe that I belong to the NFB culture, greater U.S. culture, and the Northwest U.S. regional culture. All of these heavily influence who I am and how I think and discuss things. How you design your cultural identities will definitely be different from how I design mine. But as a matter of curiosity, would you be willing to argue why the NFB isn't a culture according to your definition of it? Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Kirt, > I don't think you miss the mark at all, and I think to dismiss your > eminently reasonable point of view with some blanket statements about > culture is a bit presumptuous. I am not at all familiar with the > anthropological body of work on the question, but I would be willing to bet > that there are at least some respected opinions in opposition to those which > Jedi has put forth. I couldn't tell you a damn thing about > intersectionality, but I can tell you that it is by no means an accepted > fact that there is an "NFB culture." I, frankly, don't even believe that > there is such a thing as a blindness culture, though that is perhaps a > somewhat easier proposition for which to argue. > NFB is just an organization of individuals, with their own individual > opinions, that must reach common statements of policy and position. Yes, > there are some core beliefs that most members build their own personal > philosophies around, and, yes, that is, to my mind, a good thing. But the > idea that NFB membership is either such a central component of, or so > all-encompassingly pertinent to, my life and life goals that I identify > fellow members as people with whom I share a common culture simply doesn't > hold true. And that is coming from an individual who happens to spend a lot > of time and effort on the NFB. Do I share a culture with those who share my > commitment to social justice? Proponents of religious pluralism and > tolerance? Disabled folks in general? Green Bay Packer fans? University of > Wisconsin graduates? Lawyers and wanna be lawyers? I don't think so. Common > values alone do not entail common cultures. Nor do common beliefs, > traditions, or interests. > Again, when I use the word "culture' I use it in the commonly understood and > widely accepted sense of the word. I don't dispute that there may exist some > anthropological or sociological conceptions of culture that might be so > broad as to include NFB membership as a culturally defining characteristic. > I would just posit that those definitions are not terribly useful in talking > about the real world, and would be curious as to how many distinct cultures > one can belong to without severely limiting the threshold of importance or > prominence in one's life a "cultural identity" must reach to be considered > in any way instructive about a person. > All the best, > Sean > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 18:51:07 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:51:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313185107.3870.29588@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> David, Is it possible to have our cake and eat it too? In other words, do you think it's possible to have an NFB culture and still integrate into the greater society? Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > From what I know, many people in the deaf community believe there is > a "deaf culture" and are active in nurturing and protecting it. In > the NFB, one of our goals is to integrate blind persons into society, > so we are consequently going to be less interested in creating, > nurturing, or protecting a blind culture. It may or may not exist -- > it depends on how you define it, and who you ask. > David Andrews > At 01:30 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >> Kirt, >> I don't think you miss the mark at all, and I think to dismiss your >> eminently reasonable point of view with some blanket statements about >> culture is a bit presumptuous. I am not at all familiar with the >> anthropological body of work on the question, but I would be willing to bet >> that there are at least some respected opinions in opposition to those which >> Jedi has put forth. I couldn't tell you a damn thing about >> intersectionality, but I can tell you that it is by no means an accepted >> fact that there is an "NFB culture." I, frankly, don't even believe that >> there is such a thing as a blindness culture, though that is perhaps a >> somewhat easier proposition for which to argue. >> NFB is just an organization of individuals, with their own individual >> opinions, that must reach common statements of policy and position. Yes, >> there are some core beliefs that most members build their own personal >> philosophies around, and, yes, that is, to my mind, a good thing. But the >> idea that NFB membership is either such a central component of, or so >> all-encompassingly pertinent to, my life and life goals that I identify >> fellow members as people with whom I share a common culture simply doesn't >> hold true. And that is coming from an individual who happens to spend a lot >> of time and effort on the NFB. Do I share a culture with those who share my >> commitment to social justice? Proponents of religious pluralism and >> tolerance? Disabled folks in general? Green Bay Packer fans? University of >> Wisconsin graduates? Lawyers and wanna be lawyers? I don't think so. Common >> values alone do not entail common cultures. Nor do common beliefs, >> traditions, or interests. >> Again, when I use the word "culture' I use it in the commonly understood and >> widely accepted sense of the word. I don't dispute that there may exist some >> anthropological or sociological conceptions of culture that might be so >> broad as to include NFB membership as a culturally defining characteristic. >> I would just posit that those definitions are not terribly useful in talking >> about the real world, and would be curious as to how many distinct cultures >> one can belong to without severely limiting the threshold of importance or >> prominence in one's life a "cultural identity" must reach to be considered >> in any way instructive about a person. >> All the best, >> Sean > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 19:00:40 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:00:40 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <20110313183411.21336.86069@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> References: <20110313183411.21336.86069@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, I think the problem is our different definitions of culture...you, as far as I can tell, are coming at it from a sociological prospective of a culture being any shared belief, value, or characteristic that binds people together. I'm looking at it more from the vernacular standpoint- a culture is a large set of values that lots of people have in common, and use to define themselves. Two very, very different things. I do not live my life by the precepts of the Federation, except I believe that the NFB philosophy helps me succeed in the rest of my life. For me Federationism (I hate that word, makes it sound like a religion or political idiology or something) is not an end in itself. Were I to condense my personal version of blindness philosophy in one sentence, it would be something like "If I get quality training, and have a positive atitude, blindness won't stop me from doing whatever the hell I want." Sounds a lot like the "with propper training" statement you quoted above...but that doesn't make me part of an NFB culture in the vernacular sense of being part of a tight-nit group that shares a lot of common beliefs and a lot of underlying assumptions about life. That's just one belief, one assumption, that doesn't make a culture in the commonly understood sense. I mostly don't hang out with NFB people and, from what I've seen, the NFB is a cross-section of all sorts of different cultures and lifestyles and philosophies. I see blindness as a characteristic, not a cultural identity. Best, Kirt On 3/13/11, Jedi wrote: > You're absolutely right. It is possible to belong to many blindness > cultures at the same time. As far as I'm concerned, it would be quite > difficult to do so because there are radical differences between each > of them, so it would seem very difficult to belong to several of them > because they often contradict each other on some very deep levels. > That's not to say that they don't share certain aspects in common; they > most certainly do. > > In a given culture, there are artifacts, values, and assumptions. > Artifacts are things that a culture uses like language or customs. > Artifacts also include things and processes for daily living. So in the > NFB, our artifacts include the special phrases we use like "With > training and opportunity, a blind person can do the average job in the > average place of business and do it as well as a sighted person > similarly situated." Another artifact might be the characteristic long > white cane that many of us use. Artifacts also include symbols; the > Louis Braille coin and even the Blind Driver Challenge are symbolic in > a way; other examples include the original NFB seal with the circle and > triangle or Whozit. All of these artifacts point to some value or > assumption that we make about life and our place in it. We share some > common artifacts with other cultures like Braille and the cane or guide > dog, but we also have some pretty unique artifacts. > > We have some values that are are unique to us in the blindness > community, but they share much in common with values held by the > greater American society to which we belong. I suspect this sharing of > values is what allows us to have discussions about integration. In this > context, values have mostly to do with a blind person's place in life, > but can also be applied to life in general. Some of our values include > independence in the world outside the organization, togetherness in the > world inside the organization, innovation, punctuality, human > relationships, etc. This is by no means an exhaustive list, and many of > these values are easily found in other blindness cultures and cultures > broadly speaking. But the combination of independence, collective > action, and innovation are pretty unique to our sector of the blindness > community, especially when one considers the assumptions from which > these values are derived. > > Assumptions are taken-for-granted principles that we all agree on at > the most basic level. These are the beliefs that shape and influence > everything else in our culture. They're the things we come back to no > matter what we argue about. So these are "of course" statements. For > example "Of course blind people can be independent." or "Of course it's > respectable to be blind." There are many more assumptions that we have, > this is by no means an exhaustive list. > > If you want to know a culture's artifacts, values, and assumptions, > just look around. With ours particularly, these can be found in our > literature, at our conventions, and anywhere else where a good number > of us get together. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> Fair enough...I'm not up for arguing, especially when lots of it >> would probably involve semantics. I forfit, you win. :) All I will >> say is that your analysis seems a little too cut-and-dry to me, and >> there's very much a grey area between your four cultures. Maybe I >> belong to all four...heck, I probably do. But that seems like it >> excludes me from one or the other, because I'm not committed enough to >> any particular organization and I'm not really "anti" any of them. In >> your definition, we're all part of all sorts of cultures...which begs >> a very important question and, I would say, brings this thread full >> circle. You said culture is a set of shared common beliefs that >> members adhear to. What, pray tell, are the common beliefs of the >> NFB? I'm not sure that question's as easy to answer as it used to be. >> Best, >> Kirt > >> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>> Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether >>> or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless >>> that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with ours. > >>> The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can >>> identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the >>> unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of >>> the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the >>> foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated >>> professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that >>> could be considered a major cultural grouping. > >>> A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding >>> human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, >>> etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not >>> mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures >>> concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true >>> that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly >>> identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about >>> any reason under the sun. > >>> I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take >>> some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the >>> task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically >>> speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to >>> such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB >>> without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that >>> make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and >>> these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, >>> but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some >>> disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify >>> with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with >>> which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to >>> the role of disability in our lives. > >>> Respectfully submitted > >>> Original message: >>>> Jedi, >>>> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >>>> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >>>> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >>>> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >>>> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >>>> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >>>> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >>>> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >>>> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >>>> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to >>>> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >>>> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt > >>>> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>>>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs >>>>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >>>>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. > >>>>> Respectfully Submitted > >>>>> Original message: >>>>>> Joe, > >>>>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >>>>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>>>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>>>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >>>>>> we learn to be more inclusive. > >>>>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>>>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >>>>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>>>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>>>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>>>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >>>>>> something in the future. > >>>>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >>>>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>>>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>>>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>>>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>>>>> organization? > >>>>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > >>>>>> Brice > >>>>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>>>> Brice, > >>>>>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization >>>>>>> should >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>>>>> disability >>>>>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>>>>> Instead, >>>>>>> tell us what you think should happen. > >>>>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to >>>>>>> feel >>>>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>>>>>> been >>>>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>>>>> people >>>>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>>>>>> were >>>>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of >>>>>>> travel >>>>>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people >>>>>>> where >>>>>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>>>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>>>>> inferior >>>>>>> without your consent." > >>>>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> being >>>>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal >>>>>>> access >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might >>>>>>> simply >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that >>>>>>> focus >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left >>>>>>> out, >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything >>>>>>> worth >>>>>>> promoting? > >>>>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>>>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>>>>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>>>>> power-hungry >>>>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>>>>> Third, >>>>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>>>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>>>>> president >>>>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to >>>>>>> eliminate >>>>>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many >>>>>>> professional >>>>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within >>>>>>> our >>>>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. > >>>>>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. >>>>>>> You >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend >>>>>>> so >>>>>>> much >>>>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time >>>>>>> acting, >>>>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> if >>>>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>>>>>> exist >>>>>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>>>>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>>>>> organization >>>>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few >>>>>>> years >>>>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their >>>>>>> act >>>>>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> what >>>>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>>>>>> doing >>>>>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to >>>>>>> make >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be >>>>>>> addressed, >>>>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and >>>>>>> make >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>>>>>> needs. > >>>>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, > >>>>>>> Joe > >>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>>>>> sleeves, >>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > > > >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 19:05:50 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:05:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <20110313183411.21336.86069@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, (as a reply to your reply to David), I think the more we separate ourselves, or portray ourselves as different from our sighted peers by virtue of our blindness, the harder it will be to integrate. Just my opinion. Best, Kirt On 3/13/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Jedi, > I think the problem is our different definitions of culture...you, > as far as I can tell, are coming at it from a sociological prospective > of a culture being any shared belief, value, or characteristic that > binds people together. I'm looking at it more from the vernacular > standpoint- a culture is a large set of values that lots of people > have in common, and use to define themselves. Two very, very > different things. > I do not live my life by the precepts of the Federation, except I > believe that the NFB philosophy helps me succeed in the rest of my > life. For me Federationism (I hate that word, makes it sound like a > religion or political idiology or something) is not an end in itself. > Were I to condense my personal version of blindness philosophy in one > sentence, it would be something like "If I get quality training, and > have a positive atitude, blindness won't stop me from doing whatever > the hell I want." Sounds a lot like the "with propper training" > statement you quoted above...but that doesn't make me part of an NFB > culture in the vernacular sense of being part of a tight-nit group > that shares a lot of common beliefs and a lot of underlying > assumptions about life. That's just one belief, one assumption, that > doesn't make a culture in the commonly understood sense. I mostly > don't hang out with NFB people and, from what I've seen, the NFB is a > cross-section of all sorts of different cultures and lifestyles and > philosophies. I see blindness as a characteristic, not a cultural > identity. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/13/11, Jedi wrote: >> You're absolutely right. It is possible to belong to many blindness >> cultures at the same time. As far as I'm concerned, it would be quite >> difficult to do so because there are radical differences between each >> of them, so it would seem very difficult to belong to several of them >> because they often contradict each other on some very deep levels. >> That's not to say that they don't share certain aspects in common; they >> most certainly do. >> >> In a given culture, there are artifacts, values, and assumptions. >> Artifacts are things that a culture uses like language or customs. >> Artifacts also include things and processes for daily living. So in the >> NFB, our artifacts include the special phrases we use like "With >> training and opportunity, a blind person can do the average job in the >> average place of business and do it as well as a sighted person >> similarly situated." Another artifact might be the characteristic long >> white cane that many of us use. Artifacts also include symbols; the >> Louis Braille coin and even the Blind Driver Challenge are symbolic in >> a way; other examples include the original NFB seal with the circle and >> triangle or Whozit. All of these artifacts point to some value or >> assumption that we make about life and our place in it. We share some >> common artifacts with other cultures like Braille and the cane or guide >> dog, but we also have some pretty unique artifacts. >> >> We have some values that are are unique to us in the blindness >> community, but they share much in common with values held by the >> greater American society to which we belong. I suspect this sharing of >> values is what allows us to have discussions about integration. In this >> context, values have mostly to do with a blind person's place in life, >> but can also be applied to life in general. Some of our values include >> independence in the world outside the organization, togetherness in the >> world inside the organization, innovation, punctuality, human >> relationships, etc. This is by no means an exhaustive list, and many of >> these values are easily found in other blindness cultures and cultures >> broadly speaking. But the combination of independence, collective >> action, and innovation are pretty unique to our sector of the blindness >> community, especially when one considers the assumptions from which >> these values are derived. >> >> Assumptions are taken-for-granted principles that we all agree on at >> the most basic level. These are the beliefs that shape and influence >> everything else in our culture. They're the things we come back to no >> matter what we argue about. So these are "of course" statements. For >> example "Of course blind people can be independent." or "Of course it's >> respectable to be blind." There are many more assumptions that we have, >> this is by no means an exhaustive list. >> >> If you want to know a culture's artifacts, values, and assumptions, >> just look around. With ours particularly, these can be found in our >> literature, at our conventions, and anywhere else where a good number >> of us get together. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> Fair enough...I'm not up for arguing, especially when lots of it >>> would probably involve semantics. I forfit, you win. :) All I will >>> say is that your analysis seems a little too cut-and-dry to me, and >>> there's very much a grey area between your four cultures. Maybe I >>> belong to all four...heck, I probably do. But that seems like it >>> excludes me from one or the other, because I'm not committed enough to >>> any particular organization and I'm not really "anti" any of them. In >>> your definition, we're all part of all sorts of cultures...which begs >>> a very important question and, I would say, brings this thread full >>> circle. You said culture is a set of shared common beliefs that >>> members adhear to. What, pray tell, are the common beliefs of the >>> NFB? I'm not sure that question's as easy to answer as it used to be. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >> >>> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether >>>> or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless >>>> that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with >>>> ours. >> >>>> The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can >>>> identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the >>>> unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of >>>> the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the >>>> foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated >>>> professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that >>>> could be considered a major cultural grouping. >> >>>> A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding >>>> human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, >>>> etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not >>>> mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures >>>> concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true >>>> that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly >>>> identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about >>>> any reason under the sun. >> >>>> I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take >>>> some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the >>>> task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically >>>> speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to >>>> such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB >>>> without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that >>>> make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and >>>> these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, >>>> but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some >>>> disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify >>>> with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with >>>> which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to >>>> the role of disability in our lives. >> >>>> Respectfully submitted >> >>>> Original message: >>>>> Jedi, >>>>> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >>>>> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >>>>> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >>>>> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >>>>> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >>>>> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >>>>> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >>>>> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >>>>> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >>>>> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to >>>>> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >>>>> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >> >>>>> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>>>>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar >>>>>> beliefs >>>>>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >>>>>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. >> >>>>>> Respectfully Submitted >> >>>>>> Original message: >>>>>>> Joe, >> >>>>>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>>>>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>>>>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us >>>>>>> unless >>>>>>> we learn to be more inclusive. >> >>>>>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>>>>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>>>>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>>>>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>>>>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> something in the future. >> >>>>>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize >>>>>>> diversity >>>>>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>>>>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>>>>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>>>>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>>>>>> organization? >> >>>>>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. >> >>>>>>> Brice >> >>>>>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>>>>> Brice, >> >>>>>>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>>>>>> Instead, >>>>>>>> tell us what you think should happen. >> >>>>>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to >>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have >>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide >>>>>>>> dog >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of >>>>>>>> travel >>>>>>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people >>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess >>>>>>>> Eleanor >>>>>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>>>>>> inferior >>>>>>>> without your consent." >> >>>>>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal >>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might >>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that >>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left >>>>>>>> out, >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything >>>>>>>> worth >>>>>>>> promoting? >> >>>>>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is >>>>>>>> bogus. >>>>>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between >>>>>>>> national >>>>>>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>>>>>> power-hungry >>>>>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>>>>>> Third, >>>>>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>>>>>> president >>>>>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to >>>>>>>> eliminate >>>>>>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many >>>>>>>> professional >>>>>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups >>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >> >>>>>>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. >>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time >>>>>>>> acting, >>>>>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial >>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> exist >>>>>>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer >>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary >>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>>>>>> organization >>>>>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few >>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>>>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> act >>>>>>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be >>>>>>>> addressed, >>>>>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their >>>>>>>> unique >>>>>>>> needs. >> >>>>>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >> >>>>>>>> Joe >> >>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>>>>>> sleeves, >>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam >>>>>>>> Ewing >> >> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> >> >> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 19:12:17 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:12:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313191217.21567.32909@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Kirt, I think our definitions of culture are actually the same thing based on how you've worded them. But I think you're right that you see your role in the Federation and its role in your life differently from how I see the Federation and its role in my life. I think you're also right that the commonly held definition of culture usually relates more to geographic location and ethnicity. Generally speaking though, I think that's changing in general. Like anything else, the notion of a culture is a construct subject to change; so too is Federationism for that matter. *grin* Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Jedi, > I think the problem is our different definitions of culture...you, > as far as I can tell, are coming at it from a sociological prospective > of a culture being any shared belief, value, or characteristic that > binds people together. I'm looking at it more from the vernacular > standpoint- a culture is a large set of values that lots of people > have in common, and use to define themselves. Two very, very > different things. > I do not live my life by the precepts of the Federation, except I > believe that the NFB philosophy helps me succeed in the rest of my > life. For me Federationism (I hate that word, makes it sound like a > religion or political idiology or something) is not an end in itself. > Were I to condense my personal version of blindness philosophy in one > sentence, it would be something like "If I get quality training, and > have a positive atitude, blindness won't stop me from doing whatever > the hell I want." Sounds a lot like the "with propper training" > statement you quoted above...but that doesn't make me part of an NFB > culture in the vernacular sense of being part of a tight-nit group > that shares a lot of common beliefs and a lot of underlying > assumptions about life. That's just one belief, one assumption, that > doesn't make a culture in the commonly understood sense. I mostly > don't hang out with NFB people and, from what I've seen, the NFB is a > cross-section of all sorts of different cultures and lifestyles and > philosophies. I see blindness as a characteristic, not a cultural > identity. > Best, > Kirt > On 3/13/11, Jedi wrote: >> You're absolutely right. It is possible to belong to many blindness >> cultures at the same time. As far as I'm concerned, it would be quite >> difficult to do so because there are radical differences between each >> of them, so it would seem very difficult to belong to several of them >> because they often contradict each other on some very deep levels. >> That's not to say that they don't share certain aspects in common; they >> most certainly do. >> In a given culture, there are artifacts, values, and assumptions. >> Artifacts are things that a culture uses like language or customs. >> Artifacts also include things and processes for daily living. So in the >> NFB, our artifacts include the special phrases we use like "With >> training and opportunity, a blind person can do the average job in the >> average place of business and do it as well as a sighted person >> similarly situated." Another artifact might be the characteristic long >> white cane that many of us use. Artifacts also include symbols; the >> Louis Braille coin and even the Blind Driver Challenge are symbolic in >> a way; other examples include the original NFB seal with the circle and >> triangle or Whozit. All of these artifacts point to some value or >> assumption that we make about life and our place in it. We share some >> common artifacts with other cultures like Braille and the cane or guide >> dog, but we also have some pretty unique artifacts. >> We have some values that are are unique to us in the blindness >> community, but they share much in common with values held by the >> greater American society to which we belong. I suspect this sharing of >> values is what allows us to have discussions about integration. In this >> context, values have mostly to do with a blind person's place in life, >> but can also be applied to life in general. Some of our values include >> independence in the world outside the organization, togetherness in the >> world inside the organization, innovation, punctuality, human >> relationships, etc. This is by no means an exhaustive list, and many of >> these values are easily found in other blindness cultures and cultures >> broadly speaking. But the combination of independence, collective >> action, and innovation are pretty unique to our sector of the blindness >> community, especially when one considers the assumptions from which >> these values are derived. >> Assumptions are taken-for-granted principles that we all agree on at >> the most basic level. These are the beliefs that shape and influence >> everything else in our culture. They're the things we come back to no >> matter what we argue about. So these are "of course" statements. For >> example "Of course blind people can be independent." or "Of course it's >> respectable to be blind." There are many more assumptions that we have, >> this is by no means an exhaustive list. >> If you want to know a culture's artifacts, values, and assumptions, >> just look around. With ours particularly, these can be found in our >> literature, at our conventions, and anywhere else where a good number >> of us get together. >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> Fair enough...I'm not up for arguing, especially when lots of it >>> would probably involve semantics. I forfit, you win. :) All I will >>> say is that your analysis seems a little too cut-and-dry to me, and >>> there's very much a grey area between your four cultures. Maybe I >>> belong to all four...heck, I probably do. But that seems like it >>> excludes me from one or the other, because I'm not committed enough to >>> any particular organization and I'm not really "anti" any of them. In >>> your definition, we're all part of all sorts of cultures...which begs >>> a very important question and, I would say, brings this thread full >>> circle. You said culture is a set of shared common beliefs that >>> members adhear to. What, pray tell, are the common beliefs of the >>> NFB? I'm not sure that question's as easy to answer as it used to be. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether >>>> or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless >>>> that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with ours. >>>> The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can >>>> identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the >>>> unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of >>>> the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the >>>> foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated >>>> professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that >>>> could be considered a major cultural grouping. >>>> A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding >>>> human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, >>>> etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not >>>> mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures >>>> concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true >>>> that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly >>>> identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about >>>> any reason under the sun. >>>> I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take >>>> some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the >>>> task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically >>>> speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to >>>> such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB >>>> without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that >>>> make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and >>>> these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, >>>> but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some >>>> disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify >>>> with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with >>>> which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to >>>> the role of disability in our lives. >>>> Respectfully submitted >>>> Original message: >>>>> Jedi, >>>>> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >>>>> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >>>>> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >>>>> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >>>>> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >>>>> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >>>>> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >>>>> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >>>>> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >>>>> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to >>>>> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >>>>> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>>>>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs >>>>>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >>>>>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. >>>>>> Respectfully Submitted >>>>>> Original message: >>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >>>>>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>>>>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>>>>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >>>>>>> we learn to be more inclusive. >>>>>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>>>>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >>>>>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>>>>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>>>>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>>>>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >>>>>>> something in the future. >>>>>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >>>>>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>>>>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>>>>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>>>>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>>>>>> organization? >>>>>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. >>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>>>>> Brice, >>>>>>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>>>>>> Instead, >>>>>>>> tell us what you think should happen. >>>>>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to >>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of >>>>>>>> travel >>>>>>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people >>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>>>>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>>>>>> inferior >>>>>>>> without your consent." >>>>>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal >>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might >>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that >>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left >>>>>>>> out, >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything >>>>>>>> worth >>>>>>>> promoting? >>>>>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>>>>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>>>>>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>>>>>> power-hungry >>>>>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>>>>>> Third, >>>>>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>>>>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>>>>>> president >>>>>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to >>>>>>>> eliminate >>>>>>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many >>>>>>>> professional >>>>>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >>>>>>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. >>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time >>>>>>>> acting, >>>>>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>>>>>>> exist >>>>>>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>>>>>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>>>>>> organization >>>>>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few >>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>>>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their >>>>>>>> act >>>>>>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be >>>>>>>> addressed, >>>>>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>>>>>>> needs. >>>>>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>>>>>> sleeves, >>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 19:21:27 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:21:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313192127.21770.78827@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Ah. I think you're right that blindness itself has to enter into the discussion of the NFB as a culture. I think that blindness as a characteristic has little to do with our "culture" necessarily. Yes, we are blind; we share lots of experiences in common as a result. But I think what really defines us has more to do with our thinking regarding blindness. Does that make us different from the sighted public? Absolutely! The sighted public sees us generally as much more limited than themselves. But we disagree. So whether we like it or not, we are already different from the sighted in this respect. But in terms of how we live our lives versus how the sighted live theirs, this fundamental difference actually helps us work with them, not set us apart from them. Does that make any sense? I think we can have these differences from the sighted and still work along with them. We can have a cultural identity and not separate ourselves from other cultural identities. Like Arielle said earlier, it's not an either/or but a both/and. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Jedi, > (as a reply to your reply to David), > I think the more we separate ourselves, or portray ourselves as > different from our sighted peers by virtue of our blindness, the > harder it will be to integrate. Just my opinion. > Best, > Kirt > On 3/13/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Jedi, >> I think the problem is our different definitions of culture...you, >> as far as I can tell, are coming at it from a sociological prospective >> of a culture being any shared belief, value, or characteristic that >> binds people together. I'm looking at it more from the vernacular >> standpoint- a culture is a large set of values that lots of people >> have in common, and use to define themselves. Two very, very >> different things. >> I do not live my life by the precepts of the Federation, except I >> believe that the NFB philosophy helps me succeed in the rest of my >> life. For me Federationism (I hate that word, makes it sound like a >> religion or political idiology or something) is not an end in itself. >> Were I to condense my personal version of blindness philosophy in one >> sentence, it would be something like "If I get quality training, and >> have a positive atitude, blindness won't stop me from doing whatever >> the hell I want." Sounds a lot like the "with propper training" >> statement you quoted above...but that doesn't make me part of an NFB >> culture in the vernacular sense of being part of a tight-nit group >> that shares a lot of common beliefs and a lot of underlying >> assumptions about life. That's just one belief, one assumption, that >> doesn't make a culture in the commonly understood sense. I mostly >> don't hang out with NFB people and, from what I've seen, the NFB is a >> cross-section of all sorts of different cultures and lifestyles and >> philosophies. I see blindness as a characteristic, not a cultural >> identity. >> Best, >> Kirt >> On 3/13/11, Jedi wrote: >>> You're absolutely right. It is possible to belong to many blindness >>> cultures at the same time. As far as I'm concerned, it would be quite >>> difficult to do so because there are radical differences between each >>> of them, so it would seem very difficult to belong to several of them >>> because they often contradict each other on some very deep levels. >>> That's not to say that they don't share certain aspects in common; they >>> most certainly do. >>> In a given culture, there are artifacts, values, and assumptions. >>> Artifacts are things that a culture uses like language or customs. >>> Artifacts also include things and processes for daily living. So in the >>> NFB, our artifacts include the special phrases we use like "With >>> training and opportunity, a blind person can do the average job in the >>> average place of business and do it as well as a sighted person >>> similarly situated." Another artifact might be the characteristic long >>> white cane that many of us use. Artifacts also include symbols; the >>> Louis Braille coin and even the Blind Driver Challenge are symbolic in >>> a way; other examples include the original NFB seal with the circle and >>> triangle or Whozit. All of these artifacts point to some value or >>> assumption that we make about life and our place in it. We share some >>> common artifacts with other cultures like Braille and the cane or guide >>> dog, but we also have some pretty unique artifacts. >>> We have some values that are are unique to us in the blindness >>> community, but they share much in common with values held by the >>> greater American society to which we belong. I suspect this sharing of >>> values is what allows us to have discussions about integration. In this >>> context, values have mostly to do with a blind person's place in life, >>> but can also be applied to life in general. Some of our values include >>> independence in the world outside the organization, togetherness in the >>> world inside the organization, innovation, punctuality, human >>> relationships, etc. This is by no means an exhaustive list, and many of >>> these values are easily found in other blindness cultures and cultures >>> broadly speaking. But the combination of independence, collective >>> action, and innovation are pretty unique to our sector of the blindness >>> community, especially when one considers the assumptions from which >>> these values are derived. >>> Assumptions are taken-for-granted principles that we all agree on at >>> the most basic level. These are the beliefs that shape and influence >>> everything else in our culture. They're the things we come back to no >>> matter what we argue about. So these are "of course" statements. For >>> example "Of course blind people can be independent." or "Of course it's >>> respectable to be blind." There are many more assumptions that we have, >>> this is by no means an exhaustive list. >>> If you want to know a culture's artifacts, values, and assumptions, >>> just look around. With ours particularly, these can be found in our >>> literature, at our conventions, and anywhere else where a good number >>> of us get together. >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> Original message: >>>> Jedi, >>>> Fair enough...I'm not up for arguing, especially when lots of it >>>> would probably involve semantics. I forfit, you win. :) All I will >>>> say is that your analysis seems a little too cut-and-dry to me, and >>>> there's very much a grey area between your four cultures. Maybe I >>>> belong to all four...heck, I probably do. But that seems like it >>>> excludes me from one or the other, because I'm not committed enough to >>>> any particular organization and I'm not really "anti" any of them. In >>>> your definition, we're all part of all sorts of cultures...which begs >>>> a very important question and, I would say, brings this thread full >>>> circle. You said culture is a set of shared common beliefs that >>>> members adhear to. What, pray tell, are the common beliefs of the >>>> NFB? I'm not sure that question's as easy to answer as it used to be. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>>>> Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether >>>>> or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless >>>>> that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with >>>>> ours. >>>>> The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can >>>>> identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the >>>>> unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of >>>>> the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the >>>>> foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated >>>>> professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that >>>>> could be considered a major cultural grouping. >>>>> A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding >>>>> human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, >>>>> etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not >>>>> mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures >>>>> concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true >>>>> that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly >>>>> identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about >>>>> any reason under the sun. >>>>> I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take >>>>> some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the >>>>> task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically >>>>> speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to >>>>> such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB >>>>> without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that >>>>> make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and >>>>> these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, >>>>> but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some >>>>> disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify >>>>> with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with >>>>> which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to >>>>> the role of disability in our lives. >>>>> Respectfully submitted >>>>> Original message: >>>>>> Jedi, >>>>>> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >>>>>> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >>>>>> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >>>>>> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >>>>>> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >>>>>> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >>>>>> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >>>>>> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >>>>>> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >>>>>> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to >>>>>> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >>>>>> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>>>>>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar >>>>>>> beliefs >>>>>>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >>>>>>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. >>>>>>> Respectfully Submitted >>>>>>> Original message: >>>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence >>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>>>>>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>>>>>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us >>>>>>>> unless >>>>>>>> we learn to be more inclusive. >>>>>>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>>>>>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>>>>>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>>>>>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>>>>>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> something in the future. >>>>>>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize >>>>>>>> diversity >>>>>>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>>>>>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>>>>>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>>>>>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>>>>>>> organization? >>>>>>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. >>>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>>>>>> Brice, >>>>>>>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization >>>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>>>>>>> Instead, >>>>>>>>> tell us what you think should happen. >>>>>>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to >>>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have >>>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide >>>>>>>>> dog >>>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of >>>>>>>>> travel >>>>>>>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people >>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess >>>>>>>>> Eleanor >>>>>>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>>>>>>> inferior >>>>>>>>> without your consent." >>>>>>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal >>>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might >>>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that >>>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left >>>>>>>>> out, >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything >>>>>>>>> worth >>>>>>>>> promoting? >>>>>>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is >>>>>>>>> bogus. >>>>>>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between >>>>>>>>> national >>>>>>>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>>>>>>> power-hungry >>>>>>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>>>>>>> Third, >>>>>>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>>>>>>> president >>>>>>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to >>>>>>>>> eliminate >>>>>>>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many >>>>>>>>> professional >>>>>>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups >>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >>>>>>>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. >>>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend >>>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time >>>>>>>>> acting, >>>>>>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial >>>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> exist >>>>>>>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer >>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary >>>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>>>>>>> organization >>>>>>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few >>>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>>>>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division >>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get >>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>> act >>>>>>>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is >>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be >>>>>>>>> addressed, >>>>>>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and >>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their >>>>>>>>> unique >>>>>>>>> needs. >>>>>>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >>>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>>>>>>> sleeves, >>>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam >>>>>>>>> Ewing >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>> -- >>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From dandrews at visi.com Sun Mar 13 19:35:10 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:35:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <20110313185107.3870.29588@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1 .internal> References: <20110313185107.3870.29588@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Probably so. One of the things that the NFB teaches us is how to think of ourselves as blind persons, how to relate to the sighted public, how to handle those things that happen to us as blind persons -- on a daily basis, etc. In addition, there are shared values, approaches, and just how we do things in the NFB. I suppose all of that is a culture. But, for most of us, it is a means to an end, not the end itself. If we are to active in elevating it to a culture, then maybe it becomes the end itself. Dave At 01:51 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >David, > >Is it possible to have our cake and eat it too? In other words, do >you think it's possible to have an NFB culture and still integrate >into the greater society? > >Respectfully, >Jedi > >Original message: >> From what I know, many people in the deaf community believe there is >>a "deaf culture" and are active in nurturing and protecting it. In >>the NFB, one of our goals is to integrate blind persons into society, >>so we are consequently going to be less interested in creating, >>nurturing, or protecting a blind culture. It may or may not exist -- >>it depends on how you define it, and who you ask. > >>David Andrews > >>At 01:30 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >>>Kirt, > > > >>>I don't think you miss the mark at all, and I think to dismiss your >>>eminently reasonable point of view with some blanket statements about >>>culture is a bit presumptuous. I am not at all familiar with the >>>anthropological body of work on the question, but I would be willing to bet >>>that there are at least some respected opinions in opposition to those which >>>Jedi has put forth. I couldn't tell you a damn thing about >>>intersectionality, but I can tell you that it is by no means an accepted >>>fact that there is an "NFB culture." I, frankly, don't even believe that >>>there is such a thing as a blindness culture, though that is perhaps a >>>somewhat easier proposition for which to argue. > > > >>>NFB is just an organization of individuals, with their own individual >>>opinions, that must reach common statements of policy and position. Yes, >>>there are some core beliefs that most members build their own personal >>>philosophies around, and, yes, that is, to my mind, a good thing. But the >>>idea that NFB membership is either such a central component of, or so >>>all-encompassingly pertinent to, my life and life goals that I identify >>>fellow members as people with whom I share a common culture simply doesn't >>>hold true. And that is coming from an individual who happens to spend a lot >>>of time and effort on the NFB. Do I share a culture with those who share my >>>commitment to social justice? Proponents of religious pluralism and >>>tolerance? Disabled folks in general? Green Bay Packer fans? University of >>>Wisconsin graduates? Lawyers and wanna be lawyers? I don't think so. Common >>>values alone do not entail common cultures. Nor do common beliefs, >>>traditions, or interests. > > > >>>Again, when I use the word "culture' I use it in the commonly understood and >>>widely accepted sense of the word. I don't dispute that there may exist some >>>anthropological or sociological conceptions of culture that might be so >>>broad as to include NFB membership as a culturally defining characteristic. >>>I would just posit that those definitions are not terribly useful in talking >>>about the real world, and would be curious as to how many distinct cultures >>>one can belong to without severely limiting the threshold of importance or >>>prominence in one's life a "cultural identity" must reach to be considered >>>in any way instructive about a person. > > > >>>All the best, > > > >>>Sean > > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >-- >Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 13 19:48:43 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:48:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313194843.22057.58408@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> I hadn't given that much thought (i.e. means or an end). I definitely agree that we could classify the NFB philosophy as a means rather than an end unto itself. But I wonder about other cultures? Don't other cultures provide us a blueprint for how to live our lives as well? Would they then also be a means to living rather than an end unto themselves? Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Probably so. One of the things that the NFB teaches us is how to > think of ourselves as blind persons, how to relate to the sighted > public, how to handle those things that happen to us as blind persons > -- on a daily basis, etc. In addition, there are shared values, > approaches, and just how we do things in the NFB. I suppose all of > that is a culture. But, for most of us, it is a means to an end, not > the end itself. If we are to active in elevating it to a culture, > then maybe it becomes the end itself. > Dave > At 01:51 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >> David, >> Is it possible to have our cake and eat it too? In other words, do >> you think it's possible to have an NFB culture and still integrate >> into the greater society? >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> From what I know, many people in the deaf community believe there is >>> a "deaf culture" and are active in nurturing and protecting it. In >>> the NFB, one of our goals is to integrate blind persons into society, >>> so we are consequently going to be less interested in creating, >>> nurturing, or protecting a blind culture. It may or may not exist -- >>> it depends on how you define it, and who you ask. >>> David Andrews >>> At 01:30 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >>>> Kirt, >>>> I don't think you miss the mark at all, and I think to dismiss your >>>> eminently reasonable point of view with some blanket statements about >>>> culture is a bit presumptuous. I am not at all familiar with the >>>> anthropological body of work on the question, but I would be willing to bet >>>> that there are at least some respected opinions in opposition to those which >>>> Jedi has put forth. I couldn't tell you a damn thing about >>>> intersectionality, but I can tell you that it is by no means an accepted >>>> fact that there is an "NFB culture." I, frankly, don't even believe that >>>> there is such a thing as a blindness culture, though that is perhaps a >>>> somewhat easier proposition for which to argue. >>>> NFB is just an organization of individuals, with their own individual >>>> opinions, that must reach common statements of policy and position. Yes, >>>> there are some core beliefs that most members build their own personal >>>> philosophies around, and, yes, that is, to my mind, a good thing. But the >>>> idea that NFB membership is either such a central component of, or so >>>> all-encompassingly pertinent to, my life and life goals that I identify >>>> fellow members as people with whom I share a common culture simply doesn't >>>> hold true. And that is coming from an individual who happens to spend a lot >>>> of time and effort on the NFB. Do I share a culture with those who share my >>>> commitment to social justice? Proponents of religious pluralism and >>>> tolerance? Disabled folks in general? Green Bay Packer fans? University of >>>> Wisconsin graduates? Lawyers and wanna be lawyers? I don't think so. Common >>>> values alone do not entail common cultures. Nor do common beliefs, >>>> traditions, or interests. >>>> Again, when I use the word "culture' I use it in the commonly understood and >>>> widely accepted sense of the word. I don't dispute that there may exist some >>>> anthropological or sociological conceptions of culture that might be so >>>> broad as to include NFB membership as a culturally defining characteristic. >>>> I would just posit that those definitions are not terribly useful in talking >>>> about the real world, and would be curious as to how many distinct cultures >>>> one can belong to without severely limiting the threshold of importance or >>>> prominence in one's life a "cultural identity" must reach to be considered >>>> in any way instructive about a person. >>>> All the best, >>>> Sean >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 13 20:16:03 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:16:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <20110313191217.21567.32909@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> References: <20110313191217.21567.32909@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <21BEC3A0AE6D4102BF0164B57E132F55@OwnerPC> Hi, Since nfb has a defined set of beliefs, procedures, etc I think its almost a culture. Yet we need to work within the larger sighted culture; perhaps then that makes this a subculture. I predict nfb membership will decline because as someone said, children are rarely just blind. Many are nonverbal and blind or cognitive delayed; so its not like they can be active in any group because you need the mental ability and mmaturity to do this. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 3:12 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Kirt, I think our definitions of culture are actually the same thing based on how you've worded them. But I think you're right that you see your role in the Federation and its role in your life differently from how I see the Federation and its role in my life. I think you're also right that the commonly held definition of culture usually relates more to geographic location and ethnicity. Generally speaking though, I think that's changing in general. Like anything else, the notion of a culture is a construct subject to change; so too is Federationism for that matter. *grin* Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Jedi, > I think the problem is our different definitions of culture...you, > as far as I can tell, are coming at it from a sociological prospective > of a culture being any shared belief, value, or characteristic that > binds people together. I'm looking at it more from the vernacular > standpoint- a culture is a large set of values that lots of people > have in common, and use to define themselves. Two very, very > different things. > I do not live my life by the precepts of the Federation, except I > believe that the NFB philosophy helps me succeed in the rest of my > life. For me Federationism (I hate that word, makes it sound like a > religion or political idiology or something) is not an end in itself. > Were I to condense my personal version of blindness philosophy in one > sentence, it would be something like "If I get quality training, and > have a positive atitude, blindness won't stop me from doing whatever > the hell I want." Sounds a lot like the "with propper training" > statement you quoted above...but that doesn't make me part of an NFB > culture in the vernacular sense of being part of a tight-nit group > that shares a lot of common beliefs and a lot of underlying > assumptions about life. That's just one belief, one assumption, that > doesn't make a culture in the commonly understood sense. I mostly > don't hang out with NFB people and, from what I've seen, the NFB is a > cross-section of all sorts of different cultures and lifestyles and > philosophies. I see blindness as a characteristic, not a cultural > identity. > Best, > Kirt > On 3/13/11, Jedi wrote: >> You're absolutely right. It is possible to belong to many blindness >> cultures at the same time. As far as I'm concerned, it would be quite >> difficult to do so because there are radical differences between each >> of them, so it would seem very difficult to belong to several of them >> because they often contradict each other on some very deep levels. >> That's not to say that they don't share certain aspects in common; they >> most certainly do. >> In a given culture, there are artifacts, values, and assumptions. >> Artifacts are things that a culture uses like language or customs. >> Artifacts also include things and processes for daily living. So in the >> NFB, our artifacts include the special phrases we use like "With >> training and opportunity, a blind person can do the average job in the >> average place of business and do it as well as a sighted person >> similarly situated." Another artifact might be the characteristic long >> white cane that many of us use. Artifacts also include symbols; the >> Louis Braille coin and even the Blind Driver Challenge are symbolic in >> a way; other examples include the original NFB seal with the circle and >> triangle or Whozit. All of these artifacts point to some value or >> assumption that we make about life and our place in it. We share some >> common artifacts with other cultures like Braille and the cane or guide >> dog, but we also have some pretty unique artifacts. >> We have some values that are are unique to us in the blindness >> community, but they share much in common with values held by the >> greater American society to which we belong. I suspect this sharing of >> values is what allows us to have discussions about integration. In this >> context, values have mostly to do with a blind person's place in life, >> but can also be applied to life in general. Some of our values include >> independence in the world outside the organization, togetherness in the >> world inside the organization, innovation, punctuality, human >> relationships, etc. This is by no means an exhaustive list, and many of >> these values are easily found in other blindness cultures and cultures >> broadly speaking. But the combination of independence, collective >> action, and innovation are pretty unique to our sector of the blindness >> community, especially when one considers the assumptions from which >> these values are derived. >> Assumptions are taken-for-granted principles that we all agree on at >> the most basic level. These are the beliefs that shape and influence >> everything else in our culture. They're the things we come back to no >> matter what we argue about. So these are "of course" statements. For >> example "Of course blind people can be independent." or "Of course it's >> respectable to be blind." There are many more assumptions that we have, >> this is by no means an exhaustive list. >> If you want to know a culture's artifacts, values, and assumptions, >> just look around. With ours particularly, these can be found in our >> literature, at our conventions, and anywhere else where a good number >> of us get together. >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> Fair enough...I'm not up for arguing, especially when lots of it >>> would probably involve semantics. I forfit, you win. :) All I will >>> say is that your analysis seems a little too cut-and-dry to me, and >>> there's very much a grey area between your four cultures. Maybe I >>> belong to all four...heck, I probably do. But that seems like it >>> excludes me from one or the other, because I'm not committed enough to >>> any particular organization and I'm not really "anti" any of them. In >>> your definition, we're all part of all sorts of cultures...which begs >>> a very important question and, I would say, brings this thread full >>> circle. You said culture is a set of shared common beliefs that >>> members adhear to. What, pray tell, are the common beliefs of the >>> NFB? I'm not sure that question's as easy to answer as it used to be. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether >>>> or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless >>>> that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with >>>> ours. >>>> The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can >>>> identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the >>>> unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of >>>> the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the >>>> foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated >>>> professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that >>>> could be considered a major cultural grouping. >>>> A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding >>>> human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, >>>> etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not >>>> mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures >>>> concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true >>>> that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly >>>> identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about >>>> any reason under the sun. >>>> I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take >>>> some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the >>>> task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically >>>> speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to >>>> such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB >>>> without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that >>>> make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and >>>> these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, >>>> but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some >>>> disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify >>>> with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with >>>> which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to >>>> the role of disability in our lives. >>>> Respectfully submitted >>>> Original message: >>>>> Jedi, >>>>> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >>>>> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >>>>> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >>>>> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >>>>> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >>>>> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >>>>> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >>>>> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >>>>> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >>>>> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to >>>>> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >>>>> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>>>>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar >>>>>> beliefs >>>>>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >>>>>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. >>>>>> Respectfully Submitted >>>>>> Original message: >>>>>>> Joe, >>>>>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence >>>>>>> may >>>>>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>>>>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>>>>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us >>>>>>> unless >>>>>>> we learn to be more inclusive. >>>>>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>>>>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>>>>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>>>>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>>>>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> something in the future. >>>>>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize >>>>>>> diversity >>>>>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>>>>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>>>>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>>>>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>>>>>> organization? >>>>>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. >>>>>>> Brice >>>>>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>>>>> Brice, >>>>>>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization >>>>>>>> should >>>>>>>> do >>>>>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>>>>>> disability >>>>>>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>>>>>> Instead, >>>>>>>> tell us what you think should happen. >>>>>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to >>>>>>>> feel >>>>>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have >>>>>>>> always >>>>>>>> been >>>>>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide >>>>>>>> dog >>>>>>>> were >>>>>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of >>>>>>>> travel >>>>>>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people >>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess >>>>>>>> Eleanor >>>>>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>>>>>> inferior >>>>>>>> without your consent." >>>>>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal >>>>>>>> access >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might >>>>>>>> simply >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that >>>>>>>> focus >>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left >>>>>>>> out, >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything >>>>>>>> worth >>>>>>>> promoting? >>>>>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is >>>>>>>> bogus. >>>>>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between >>>>>>>> national >>>>>>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>>>>>> power-hungry >>>>>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>>>>>> Third, >>>>>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>>>>>> president >>>>>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to >>>>>>>> eliminate >>>>>>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many >>>>>>>> professional >>>>>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups >>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>> our >>>>>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >>>>>>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. >>>>>>>> You >>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend >>>>>>>> so >>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time >>>>>>>> acting, >>>>>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial >>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> if >>>>>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> exist >>>>>>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer >>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary >>>>>>>> disabilities >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>>>>>> organization >>>>>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few >>>>>>>> years >>>>>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>>>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get >>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>> act >>>>>>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be >>>>>>>> addressed, >>>>>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and >>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their >>>>>>>> unique >>>>>>>> needs. >>>>>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >>>>>>>> Joe >>>>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>>>>>> sleeves, >>>>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam >>>>>>>> Ewing >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 13 20:16:59 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:16:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <20110313185107.3870.29588@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> References: <20110313185107.3870.29588@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: We can integrate and keep part of our identity, yes. -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 2:51 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB David, Is it possible to have our cake and eat it too? In other words, do you think it's possible to have an NFB culture and still integrate into the greater society? Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > From what I know, many people in the deaf community believe there is > a "deaf culture" and are active in nurturing and protecting it. In > the NFB, one of our goals is to integrate blind persons into society, > so we are consequently going to be less interested in creating, > nurturing, or protecting a blind culture. It may or may not exist -- > it depends on how you define it, and who you ask. > David Andrews > At 01:30 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >> Kirt, >> I don't think you miss the mark at all, and I think to dismiss your >> eminently reasonable point of view with some blanket statements about >> culture is a bit presumptuous. I am not at all familiar with the >> anthropological body of work on the question, but I would be willing to >> bet >> that there are at least some respected opinions in opposition to those >> which >> Jedi has put forth. I couldn't tell you a damn thing about >> intersectionality, but I can tell you that it is by no means an accepted >> fact that there is an "NFB culture." I, frankly, don't even believe that >> there is such a thing as a blindness culture, though that is perhaps a >> somewhat easier proposition for which to argue. >> NFB is just an organization of individuals, with their own individual >> opinions, that must reach common statements of policy and position. Yes, >> there are some core beliefs that most members build their own personal >> philosophies around, and, yes, that is, to my mind, a good thing. But the >> idea that NFB membership is either such a central component of, or so >> all-encompassingly pertinent to, my life and life goals that I identify >> fellow members as people with whom I share a common culture simply >> doesn't >> hold true. And that is coming from an individual who happens to spend a >> lot >> of time and effort on the NFB. Do I share a culture with those who share >> my >> commitment to social justice? Proponents of religious pluralism and >> tolerance? Disabled folks in general? Green Bay Packer fans? University >> of >> Wisconsin graduates? Lawyers and wanna be lawyers? I don't think so. >> Common >> values alone do not entail common cultures. Nor do common beliefs, >> traditions, or interests. >> Again, when I use the word "culture' I use it in the commonly understood >> and >> widely accepted sense of the word. I don't dispute that there may exist >> some >> anthropological or sociological conceptions of culture that might be so >> broad as to include NFB membership as a culturally defining >> characteristic. >> I would just posit that those definitions are not terribly useful in >> talking >> about the real world, and would be curious as to how many distinct >> cultures >> one can belong to without severely limiting the threshold of importance >> or >> prominence in one's life a "cultural identity" must reach to be >> considered >> in any way instructive about a person. >> All the best, >> Sean > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dandrews at visi.com Sun Mar 13 20:26:44 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 15:26:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <20110313194843.22057.58408@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute- 1.internal> References: <20110313194843.22057.58408@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: You may be right, or it may be semantic hair splitting. Dave At 02:48 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >I hadn't given that much thought (i.e. means or an end). I >definitely agree that we could classify the NFB philosophy as a >means rather than an end unto itself. But I wonder about other >cultures? Don't other cultures provide us a blueprint for how to >live our lives as well? Would they then also be a means to living >rather than an end unto themselves? > >Respectfully Submitted > >Original message: >>Probably so. One of the things that the NFB teaches us is how to >>think of ourselves as blind persons, how to relate to the sighted >>public, how to handle those things that happen to us as blind persons >>-- on a daily basis, etc. In addition, there are shared values, >>approaches, and just how we do things in the NFB. I suppose all of >>that is a culture. But, for most of us, it is a means to an end, not >>the end itself. If we are to active in elevating it to a culture, >>then maybe it becomes the end itself. > >>Dave > >>At 01:51 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >>>David, > >>>Is it possible to have our cake and eat it too? In other words, do >>>you think it's possible to have an NFB culture and still integrate >>>into the greater society? > >>>Respectfully, >>>Jedi > >>>Original message: >>>> From what I know, many people in the deaf community believe there is >>>>a "deaf culture" and are active in nurturing and protecting it. In >>>>the NFB, one of our goals is to integrate blind persons into society, >>>>so we are consequently going to be less interested in creating, >>>>nurturing, or protecting a blind culture. It may or may not exist -- >>>>it depends on how you define it, and who you ask. > >>>>David Andrews > >>>>At 01:30 PM 3/13/2011, you wrote: >>>>>Kirt, > > > >>>>>I don't think you miss the mark at all, and I think to dismiss your >>>>>eminently reasonable point of view with some blanket statements about >>>>>culture is a bit presumptuous. I am not at all familiar with the >>>>>anthropological body of work on the question, but I would be >>>>>willing to bet >>>>>that there are at least some respected opinions in opposition to >>>>>those which >>>>>Jedi has put forth. I couldn't tell you a damn thing about >>>>>intersectionality, but I can tell you that it is by no means an accepted >>>>>fact that there is an "NFB culture." I, frankly, don't even believe that >>>>>there is such a thing as a blindness culture, though that is perhaps a >>>>>somewhat easier proposition for which to argue. > > > >>>>>NFB is just an organization of individuals, with their own individual >>>>>opinions, that must reach common statements of policy and position. Yes, >>>>>there are some core beliefs that most members build their own personal >>>>>philosophies around, and, yes, that is, to my mind, a good thing. But the >>>>>idea that NFB membership is either such a central component of, or so >>>>>all-encompassingly pertinent to, my life and life goals that I identify >>>>>fellow members as people with whom I share a common culture simply doesn't >>>>>hold true. And that is coming from an individual who happens to >>>>>spend a lot >>>>>of time and effort on the NFB. Do I share a culture with those >>>>>who share my >>>>>commitment to social justice? Proponents of religious pluralism and >>>>>tolerance? Disabled folks in general? Green Bay Packer fans? University of >>>>>Wisconsin graduates? Lawyers and wanna be lawyers? I don't think >>>>>so. Common >>>>>values alone do not entail common cultures. Nor do common beliefs, >>>>>traditions, or interests. > > > >>>>>Again, when I use the word "culture' I use it in the commonly >>>>>understood and >>>>>widely accepted sense of the word. I don't dispute that there >>>>>may exist some >>>>>anthropological or sociological conceptions of culture that might be so >>>>>broad as to include NFB membership as a culturally defining >>>>>characteristic. >>>>>I would just posit that those definitions are not terribly >>>>>useful in talking >>>>>about the real world, and would be curious as to how many >>>>>distinct cultures >>>>>one can belong to without severely limiting the threshold of importance or >>>>>prominence in one's life a "cultural identity" must reach to be considered >>>>>in any way instructive about a person. > > > >>>>>All the best, > > > >>>>>Sean > > > >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>for nabs-l: >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >>>-- >>>Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > >-- >Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 21:13:09 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:13:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Disability in general In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I completely agree with you. I work in the Network for Disability Awareness office on my campus (it is a division of student government) and my approach to all disabilities is the same I take towards blindness. Personally, I feel that blindness is one of the less limiting disabilities since we lack no physical or communication barrier, though other disabilities seem to receive accomodations before us. This is not to say other disabilities should be viewed the way many people regard disability in general, but when you think about it, in terms of physical and spacial accomodations, we require little. In fact, blindness alone should not be considered a physical disability since we are not unable to do anything physically. Rather, blindness is simply a sensory disability much like being deaf, or other disabilities that do not affect mobility or motion. However, many who do have true mobility issues such as people with CP or spinal chord injuries or the loss of limbs, will a test to the fact that life did not stop, and they still found ways to achieve success. Has anyone ever heard of the guy who was born without legs or arms? He was a state wrestling champ in high school, won a wrestling scholarship to college and maintained a high GPA throughout college. Like us, he was not exceptional guy born with a special gene to cope with his disability. He found a way to achieve success, and it is something many others could do if they had to. Each disability certainly has its obstacles, but really any human being does. However, each disability group has devised tools, methods and skills that allow them to accomplish goals. To be honest, I am not surprised by news I hear about disabled people accomplishing tasks and goals. In the Federation, we always say we do all the same things, we just may use different tools or methods to accomplish those things. This is how all disabilities are. We all deserve respect and equality, and we all are finding means to achieve goals. As blind people, but especially as Federationist, I think it is unfair to hold opinions and views towards other disabilities the way many do about blindness. After all, as I always tell people, until you have tried something, you can not say with certainty that something can not be done. Bridgit Message: 9 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:09:51 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313040951.11744.86462 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" When it comes to other disabilities, I think we reflect the broad views of disability held by the general public. I think that because some of us are unfamiliar with other disabilities, these disabilities might seem like serious handicaps rather than characteristics similar to blindness. However, those of us who are more familiar might think that other forms of disabilitiy represent an even broader array of human characteristics that have some inherent limitations and advantages. Still others of us might range in familiarity with other disabilities, but still be able to apply jernigan's philosophy of blindness as a characteristic. And finally, there will be those who, regardless of familiarity or philosophy, will always see other disabilities as seriously handicapping conditions. If anything, we will have to understand our blindness in the context of other disabilities and visa-versa; I'm hoping that we will learn to apply Jernigan's philosophy to other disabilities as well as our own. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi Brice, > You bring to light a very interesting point. I seem to notice a > similar trend. Now, one can argue that people with multiple > disabilities are the case outside the blind community, but that > wouldn't be the point here. > a question that might be worth asking is how will we adjust to > this. How do we interact with the deaf-blind members of our > organization? for example. > do we view other disabilities as we view blindness, or do we view > other disabilities like the general public does blindness? > just some thought, not so much answers, as I don't think I could > begain to attempt to fashonone. > Darian > On 3/7/11, Brice Smith wrote: >> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective >> of this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now >> living longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She >> notes that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with >> students who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I >> do not have any hard data or research to back up any of these >> observations. >> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >> disabilities. >> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a >> testament to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people >> and raise a unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the >> number of people with blindness as their only disability is >> shrinking, what does this mean for our future? >> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the >> future of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >> and years to come. >> Any thoughts are welcome. >> Brice >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >> mail.com > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > ? Robert Byrne > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% > 40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:13:06 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) Message-ID: <20110313041306.28689.74267 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" As Edgar Shein points out in his research on organizations, each organization has a culture and it is seldom entirely unified. However, I do think that NABS might be less likely to have a unified opinion on things because we have a membership that's constantly in flux; many of our members are quite new to the NFB and so might not be fully aware of our philosophy and how it functions. This is true in other NFB divisions, but it especially seems true with NABS. I've heard that NABS has always exhibited this characteristic from past NABS members. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi all, > Could I get your thoughts on something?...... > How unified do you think we are as a large division of students in > the NFB? > We represent most of, if not all of the states, and have a wide > aray of talents, prospectives and ideas. We have leaders, we have > student divisions in our states, but do you think we are as united > as we can and should be? > Are we as united as, say our state affiliates? > If you think the answer is "no", what do you think it will take from > each of us to make this happen? > Darian > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > ? Robert Byrne > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% > 40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:18:24 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313041824.28348.8763 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" What complicates the issue is that there is a lot of variation in how multiply disabled persons view each of their disabilities in turn. I had an opportunity to visit the deaf-blind division and was seriously disappointed. I hoped that the division would have as positive philosophy about their deafness as they did about their blindness. Instead, I found that they treated their hearing loss as most sighted people treat vision loss: they tried to maximize their hearing and seemed like they didn't want to be identified as deaf. I hope things have changed since then; I visited in 2004, I think. I'm pretty sure that there are other deaf-blind individuals who feel differently about their deafness; differences like these may make it difficult to form a unified division such as the deaf-blind division. Hell, if i were deaf, I'd just apply Jernigan's philosophy and move on from there. I'd learn the alternative techniques of deafness, integrate them with my alternative techniques of blindness, learn about new and exciting technologies and techniques for achieving whatever I'd like to achieve, and have a good time at it. That's just me though. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: >> Marsha: > I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. > Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think > we > as the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. > Jorge > On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >> hearing impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, >> but I am hard of hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it >> promoted as much as say the parents, or the students? No, not at all. >> Are these disabilities any less than our blindness? No, not at all. >> But then my question is that why are those of us who are hard of >> hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or whatever you want to call it, >> second class to those vanilla blind persons in the NFB? Why are those >> vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who can't do >> things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >> has kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this >> matter. But frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who >> are blind for their abilities or the lack of skills. And its those >> same people who judge others for the additional disabilities they may >> have. >> Just my two cents, >> Marsha >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf Of Brice Smith >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective >> of this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now >> living longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She >> notes that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with >> students who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I >> do not have any hard data or research to back up any of these >> observations. >> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >> disabilities. >> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a >> testament to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people >> and raise a unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the >> number of people with blindness as their only disability is >> shrinking, what does this mean for our future? >> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the >> future of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >> and years to come. >> Any thoughts are welcome. >> Brice >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth >> %40gmai >> l.com >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> http://www.eset.com >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> http://www.eset.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40 >> mac.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% > 40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:24:50 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313042450.28483.75943 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Ah, but then don't we assume that multi-disabled persons do better in sheltered shops more than in "the real world?" Something to think about. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > For example, what if we pushed for rehab agencies to shut down > sheltered workshops because many blind people were placed there > wrongfully. What happens to the people with multiple disabilities, > which may include blindness, whose lives may have been better from > working at these workshops? > On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Brice Smith wrote: >> Kirt, >> While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, >> reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. >> Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their >> resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our >> organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve >> self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for >> collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help >> people with additional disabilities in this framework without >> compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always >> happen. >> Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with >> our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak >> directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we do >> when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in the >> future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the >> cutting-edge? >> As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a question >> that we need to consider as we move forward. >> Brice >> On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >>> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other >>> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and >>> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially >>> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, >>> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of >>> us love complaining about. >>> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >>> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >>> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >>> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same >>> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as >>> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >>> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >>> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >>> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >>> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >>> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >>> disabilities, not just blindness. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> Marsha: >>>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >>>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >>>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >>>> Jorge >>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>>>> hearing >>>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>>>> of >>>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>>>> say >>>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>>> whatever >>>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>>>> NFB? >>>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>>>> can't >>>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>>>> has >>>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>>>> But >>>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>>>> their >>>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>>> others >>>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>>>> Just my two cents, >>>>> Marsha >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Brice Smith >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>>>> disabilities. >>>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>>>> this mean for our future? >>>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>>>> and years to come. >>>>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>>>> Brice >>>>> -- >>>>> Brice Smith >>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40 gmai >>>>> l.com >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> signature >>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>> signature >>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>>>> http://www.eset.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 0gmail.com >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail .com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:29:01 -0500 From: NabslinkAudioWebMaster To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download Message-ID: Greetings! This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. Title: The Nabs Conference Call For March 2011 Description: On this call, we had the chance to hear about the summer programs offered by four of the leading training centers in the country: The three major centers in Minnesota (Blind Inc), Colorado (The Colorado Center For The Blind), Louisiana (The Louisiana Center For The Blind), and Baltimore (Bysm) Learn about the various summer programs that these fine centers offer, and how you can get involved. You can download the show directly at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/March2011Call.mp3 Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations to hear some of the other calls we've done. Best regards, David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee http://www.nabslinkaudio.org http://www.nabslink.org ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:35:43 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313043543.11790.74486 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Please forgive me for what I'm about to say as it might seem quite blunt. On the other hand, I think it needs to be said. I believe that we as blind people (and especially blind people with other disabilities) set low expectations for ourselves, meet them and don't go outside of them, thus fulfill our own low expectations and the prophecies that come with them. I do think that training at a center is a good idea for people who want to improve their skill sets or for people who didn't have access to good training from the beginning. I also think that we do tend to set our expectations low, then get defensive when someone else challenges these low expectations with something we don't want to hear; we do this to rationalize our low expectations and thus maintain the status quo. I think we've got to be careful as it's so easy to do. I've seen people with multiple disabilities come leaps and bounds after working at one of our centers. I've also seen multi-disabled people battle low expectations about their other disabilities while at our centers. It frustrates me, but there you have it. The bottom line is that we, as Jernigan pointed out so many times, are a reflection of our own society; we also tend to accept social biases and expectation levels. Therefore, we absolutely must not take anything for granted and consider the possibility that we are selling ourselves short (or selling others short). The next time (Marsha) that someone challenges you to go to a center, don't take it as a judgement regarding your skills or your various disabilities, consider it as a challenge to grow and find new and exciting ways to accomplish what you currently think of as overwhelming or altogether impossible. I'm encouraging you to think of it this way because I truly think that was the spirit in which the challenge to attend a center was meant. I'm not defending anyone's rudeness, I'm just saying. Respectfully Submitted, Jedi Original message: > Marsha, > I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you told that individual that you have a > hearing loss and that presented additional challenges. > Why is it that some judgemental people in NFB feel any deficit such as > travel skills can be rectified by attending a center? > People can have other challenges; teaching you can only go so far. For > instance I've known people who received cane training for years, some > structured discovery, some traditional, who cannot walk straight and they > veer on streets. Others have trouble crossing streets and either may get > assistance with it or ask for an audible signal; training, such as > interpreting sound cues, can only go so far. You got to have some sense of > direction for it to work well. > Hotels are hard for anyone to navigate; especially big ones like conventions > are in. > As much as we talk independence, sight does help navigate crowds. > Know why Jernigan and now Dr. Maurer have sighted guides often? > Its faster and efficient! > In new open areas, that is faster. > Joshua said he needs help in unfamiliar places and sticks to learned routes > in those spots. > I'm a good cane traveler, but the orientation part is challenging; mobility > part I can do; I just have trouble making mental maps and organizing space. > Certainly I've traveled alone a bit in hotels including for state > convention, but I memorize main things like where the elevator is. > I've seen people judged also for not reading braille efficiently or fast. > It may be a number of reasons such as tactile sensativity is lacking. > I hope nfb comes more open in the future. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Marsha Drenth > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:02 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Kirt, > Very well said. And I agree completely. As a blind person, as a person with > other disabilities, I never ever judge anyone for their abilities or their > lack of skills, or the alternative ways they may do something. I do not > judge others, because I do not want to be judged. > Prime example, at the national convention. It's a huge hotel, I got a little > disorientated. Granted I have been in this hotel 3 times now. And when I > asked for help, I was treated as though my skills were not "good enough". > Its not my skills that need help, its my ears that do not work. And when I > explained this to said person I asked for help from, they said I needed to > go to a center for training. The hotel in Detroit was a nightmare for me to > navigate. > Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. I am not even saying any of you would be > so judgmental, but people do need to think of these things. > Marsha > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, > I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other > disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and > ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially > within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, > we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of > us love complaining about. > True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does > blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. > Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it > impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same > techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as > a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking > about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to > blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone > who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not > who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each > other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and > disabilities, not just blindness. > Best, > Kirt > On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Marsha: >> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >> Jorge >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are > hearing >>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>> of >>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>> say >>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>> whatever >>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>> NFB? >>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who > can't >>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>> has >>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>> But >>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>> their >>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>> others >>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>> Just my two cents, >>> Marsha >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Brice Smith >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>> disabilities. >>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>> this mean for our future? >>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>> and years to come. >>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>> Brice >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40 gmai >>> l.com >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> http://www.eset.com >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> http://www.eset.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40 gmai > l.com > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > http://www.eset.com > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:57:56 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313045756.11790.27777 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Joe, > Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may > gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the > arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I > think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless > we learn to be more inclusive. > But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago > because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a > whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, > assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple > disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more > important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do > something in the future. > to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity > and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at > what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we > protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it > time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the > organization? > I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > Brice > On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Brice, >> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should do >> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only disability >> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. Instead, >> tell us what you think should happen. >> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been >> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people >> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were >> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel inferior >> without your consent." >> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not being >> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access to >> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus on >> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >> promoting? >> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when power-hungry >> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. Third, >> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were president >> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are >> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so much >> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that if >> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to exist >> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is to >> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the organization >> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about what >> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing >> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make a >> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique needs. >> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >> Joe >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 0gmail.com > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 22:39:31 -0700 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Jedi, I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, anyone? Am I missing the mark? Best, Kirt On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: > There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs > to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally > ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Joe, > >> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >> we learn to be more inclusive. > >> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >> something in the future. > >> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >> organization? > >> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > >> Brice > >> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> Brice, > >>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should >>> do >>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>> disability >>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>> Instead, >>> tell us what you think should happen. > >>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>> been >>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>> people >>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>> were >>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>> inferior >>> without your consent." > >>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >>> being >>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access >>> to >>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus >>> on >>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >>> promoting? > >>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>> power-hungry >>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>> Third, >>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>> president >>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. > >>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You >>> are >>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >>> much >>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that >>> if >>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>> exist >>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is >>> to >>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>> organization >>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >>> what >>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>> doing >>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make >>> a >>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>> needs. > >>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, > >>> Joe > >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>> sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 0gmail.com > > > >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 00:48:21 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan Message-ID: <20110313054821.12249.5194 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" They're just as propaganda-hungry as the die-hard liberal talkshow hosts. Just a thought. Bottom line is that one must consider all points of view, all facts, and then make their own decisions and do what's right according to their own values. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Bill ORieley, and Mike Huckabee, are the most trusted. I also like Glenn Beck. > Kirt, Beck is a Morman, (I thought I'd throw that out there.) > Blessings, Joshua > On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> :) And you wonder why I don't much trust talkshow hosts. On both >> sides of the isle. >> Best, >> Kirt >> On 3/11/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> Is that Rachel Maddow? Of course, she can't be taken seriously! She's >>> a propaganda-hungry liberal! >>> This propaganda is not for this list. Thanks, Jorge, I concur with you >>> on that one. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this? Cause, just >>>> going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case >>>> outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her >>>> all that seriously. Anyone wanna let me know what's really going on >>>> here? (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list. Heaven >>>> knows this could turn in to something crazy) >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> Andy: >>>>> With all due respect, >>>>> please do not post political propaganda on this list. >>>>> Jorge >>>>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: >>>>>> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, >>>>>> especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness >>>>>> ishue, >>>>>> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It >>>>>> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the >>>>>> worst. >>>>>> It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be >>>>>> done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it >>>>>> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just >>>>>> raise >>>>>> hackles. >>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 >>>>>> Hi everyone. >>>>>> It's time for another community service conference call! We will have >>>>>> much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention >>>>>> service project. We will also have a discussion of summer >>>>>> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope >>>>>> you're on the call. >>>>>> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST >>>>>> Where: Call 218.339.3600 >>>>>> Passcode: 808277 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey %40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40st udents.pccua.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40st udents.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:06:53 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313060653.29087.71137 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with ours. The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that could be considered a major cultural grouping. A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about any reason under the sun. I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to the role of disability in our lives. Respectfully submitted Original message: > Jedi, > I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability > culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other > disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, > for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever > culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as > possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of > how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to > me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, > even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If > part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to > each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, > anyone? Am I missing the mark? > Best, > Kirt > On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >> There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs >> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. >> Respectfully Submitted >> Original message: >>> Joe, >>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >>> we learn to be more inclusive. >>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >>> something in the future. >>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>> organization? >>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. >>> Brice >>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>> Brice, >>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should >>>> do >>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>> disability >>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>> Instead, >>>> tell us what you think should happen. >>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>>> been >>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>> people >>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>>> were >>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>> inferior >>>> without your consent." >>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >>>> being >>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access >>>> to >>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus >>>> on >>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >>>> promoting? >>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>> power-hungry >>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>> Third, >>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>> president >>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You >>>> are >>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >>>> much >>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that >>>> if >>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>>> exist >>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is >>>> to >>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>> organization >>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >>>> what >>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>>> doing >>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make >>>> a >>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>>> needs. >>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >>>> Joe >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>> sleeves, >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 0gmail.com >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:18:26 -0700 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Jedi, Fair enough...I'm not up for arguing, especially when lots of it would probably involve semantics. I forfit, you win. :) All I will say is that your analysis seems a little too cut-and-dry to me, and there's very much a grey area between your four cultures. Maybe I belong to all four...heck, I probably do. But that seems like it excludes me from one or the other, because I'm not committed enough to any particular organization and I'm not really "anti" any of them. In your definition, we're all part of all sorts of cultures...which begs a very important question and, I would say, brings this thread full circle. You said culture is a set of shared common beliefs that members adhear to. What, pray tell, are the common beliefs of the NFB? I'm not sure that question's as easy to answer as it used to be. Best, Kirt On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: > Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether > or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless > that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with ours. > > The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can > identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the > unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of > the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the > foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated > professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that > could be considered a major cultural grouping. > > A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding > human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, > etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not > mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures > concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true > that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly > identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about > any reason under the sun. > > I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take > some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the > task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically > speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to > such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB > without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that > make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and > these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, > but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some > disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify > with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with > which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to > the role of disability in our lives. > > Respectfully submitted > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to >> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >> Best, >> Kirt > >> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs >>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. > >>> Respectfully Submitted > >>> Original message: >>>> Joe, > >>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >>>> we learn to be more inclusive. > >>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >>>> something in the future. > >>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>>> organization? > >>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > >>>> Brice > >>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>> Brice, > >>>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization >>>>> should >>>>> do >>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>>> disability >>>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>>> Instead, >>>>> tell us what you think should happen. > >>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>>>> been >>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>>> people >>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>>>> were >>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of >>>>> travel >>>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people >>>>> where >>>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>>> inferior >>>>> without your consent." > >>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >>>>> being >>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal >>>>> access >>>>> to >>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply >>>>> be >>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that >>>>> focus >>>>> on >>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, >>>>> it >>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >>>>> promoting? > >>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>>> power-hungry >>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>>> Third, >>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>>> president >>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >>>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within >>>>> our >>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. > >>>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You >>>>> are >>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >>>>> much >>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time >>>>> acting, >>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea >>>>> that >>>>> if >>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>>>> exist >>>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities >>>>> is >>>>> to >>>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>>> organization >>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few >>>>> years >>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would >>>>> be >>>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their >>>>> act >>>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >>>>> what >>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>>>> doing >>>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to >>>>> make >>>>> a >>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be >>>>> addressed, >>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make >>>>> a >>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>>>> needs. > >>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, > >>>>> Joe > >>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>>> sleeves, >>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 0gmail.com > > > >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 08:48:52 -0400 From: Jewel To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] improving our divisions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sean, I also appreciate the Slate a lot. It's a good newsletter. Are you on the NFB Editors list? We've been talking about newsletter construction lately. On 3/12/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Sean, > I appreciate the efforts to get the slate out regularly! I found the > articles of high quality and > inspiring. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean Whalen > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] improving our divisions > > Not to split hairs here, but the Student Slate has come out every quarter, > September, December, March and June, since this board was elected. That is > not "fairly" regularly, that is clockwork. Karen Anderson and I promised > that we would adhere to a schedule of quarterly publication, and we, with > the help of many of you who have written or helped to find articles, have > done exactly that. This is the first time in my limited memory that this has > been achieved, and, if I get the chance, I hope to do the same over the next > two years. I really encourage everybody on the list to at least glance > through each issue to see if there are articles that pique your interest. I > feel that we have, generally speaking, had a very high level of quality in > the articles we have put out. The March 2011 issue will be out shortly for > those who are interested, and back issues can be found on www.nabslink.org. > > > > Sorry, I'm not trying to shamelessly plug our work, but want everybody to > know that the resource is out there, as many of us put a good amount of work > into bringing each newsletter together. > > > > Take care, > > > > Sean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40 gmail.com > -- Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17 ************************************** From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 21:16:04 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:16:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] improving our divisions In-Reply-To: References: <000c01cbe0e2$d27e14a0$777a3de0$@com> <8954E4C55C3B456C801C4654E7BC49AE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Sean is Correct in that the slate has done some very good work, Much appreciation to Sean, and the crew for making that happen! The bulletins have been a great way for people to get a glance into what nabs is doing, and I would highly encourage state student divisions to submit storys about what great work they are doing to either the bulletin or slate, and people to share their stories about student life, interests and activities as well. It's really no secret that the membership of our division is why we do what we do, and in my opinion that's what it should always be about in our work. On 3/13/11, Jewel wrote: > Sean, > I also appreciate the Slate a lot. It's a good newsletter. Are you on > the NFB Editors list? We've been talking about newsletter construction > lately. > > On 3/12/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Sean, >> I appreciate the efforts to get the slate out regularly! I found the >> articles of high quality and >> inspiring. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sean Whalen >> Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:25 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] improving our divisions >> >> Not to split hairs here, but the Student Slate has come out every quarter, >> September, December, March and June, since this board was elected. That is >> not "fairly" regularly, that is clockwork. Karen Anderson and I promised >> that we would adhere to a schedule of quarterly publication, and we, with >> the help of many of you who have written or helped to find articles, have >> done exactly that. This is the first time in my limited memory that this >> has >> been achieved, and, if I get the chance, I hope to do the same over the >> next >> two years. I really encourage everybody on the list to at least glance >> through each issue to see if there are articles that pique your interest. >> I >> feel that we have, generally speaking, had a very high level of quality in >> the articles we have put out. The March 2011 issue will be out shortly for >> those who are interested, and back issues can be found on >> www.nabslink.org. >> >> >> >> Sorry, I'm not trying to shamelessly plug our work, but want everybody to >> know that the resource is out there, as many of us put a good amount of >> work >> into bringing each newsletter together. >> >> >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! > Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 21:31:49 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:31:49 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Disability in general In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I pretty much completely agree with all of that. thankyou for sharing this, as I think it's good to hear. On 3/13/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > I completely agree with you. > > I work in the Network for Disability Awareness office on my campus (it > is a division of student government) and my approach to all disabilities > is the same I take towards blindness. > > Personally, I feel that blindness is one of the less limiting > disabilities since we lack no physical or communication barrier, though > other disabilities seem to receive accomodations before us. This is not > to say other disabilities should be viewed the way many people regard > disability in general, but when you think about it, in terms of physical > and spacial accomodations, we require little. > > In fact, blindness alone should not be considered a physical disability > since we are not unable to do anything physically. Rather, blindness is > simply a sensory disability much like being deaf, or other disabilities > that do not affect mobility or motion. > > However, many who do have true mobility issues such as people with CP or > spinal chord injuries or the loss of limbs, will a test to the fact that > life did not stop, and they still found ways to achieve success. > > Has anyone ever heard of the guy who was born without legs or arms? He > was a state wrestling champ in high school, won a wrestling scholarship > to college and maintained a high GPA throughout college. Like us, he > was not exceptional guy born with a special gene to cope with his > disability. He found a way to achieve success, and it is something many > others could do if they had to. > > Each disability certainly has its obstacles, but really any human being > does. However, each disability group has devised tools, methods and > skills that allow them to accomplish goals. To be honest, I am not > surprised by news I hear about disabled people accomplishing tasks and > goals. > > In the Federation, we always say we do all the same things, we just may > use different tools or methods to accomplish those things. This is how > all disabilities are. We all deserve respect and equality, and we all > are finding means to achieve goals. > > As blind people, but especially as Federationist, I think it is unfair > to hold opinions and views towards other disabilities the way many do > about blindness. After all, as I always tell people, until you have > tried something, you can not say with certainty that something can not > be done. > > Bridgit > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:09:51 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > > <20110313040951.11744.86462 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" > > When it comes to other disabilities, I think we reflect the broad views > of disability held by the general public. I think that because some of > us are unfamiliar with other disabilities, these disabilities might > seem like serious handicaps rather than characteristics similar to > blindness. However, those of us who are more familiar might think that > other forms of disabilitiy represent an even broader array of human > characteristics that have some inherent limitations and advantages. > Still others of us might range in familiarity with other disabilities, > but still be able to apply jernigan's philosophy of blindness as a > characteristic. And finally, there will be those who, regardless of > familiarity or philosophy, will always see other disabilities as > seriously handicapping conditions. If anything, we will have to > understand our blindness in the context of other disabilities and > visa-versa; I'm hoping that we will learn to apply Jernigan's > philosophy to other disabilities as well as our own. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Hi Brice, >> You bring to light a very interesting point. I seem to notice a >> similar trend. Now, one can argue that people with multiple >> disabilities are the case outside the blind community, but that >> wouldn't be the point here. >> a question that might be worth asking is how will we adjust to >> this. How do we interact with the deaf-blind members of our >> organization? for example. >> do we view other disabilities as we view blindness, or do we view >> other disabilities like the general public does blindness? >> just some thought, not so much answers, as I don't think I could >> begain to attempt to fashonone. >> Darian > > > >> On 3/7/11, Brice Smith wrote: >>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective >>> of this professional, more and more students who are blind often have > >>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now >>> living longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She >>> notes that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with >>> students who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I >>> do not have any hard data or research to back up any of these >>> observations. > >>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>> disabilities. > >>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a >>> testament to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people >>> and raise a unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the > >>> number of people with blindness as their only disability is >>> shrinking, what does this mean for our future? > >>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the >>> future of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and > >>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future > >>> and years to come. > >>> Any thoughts are welcome. > >>> Brice > >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40g >>> mail.com > > > >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > >> ? Robert Byrne > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% >> 40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:13:06 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] (no subject) > Message-ID: > > <20110313041306.28689.74267 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; format="flowed" > > As Edgar Shein points out in his research on organizations, each > organization has a culture and it is seldom entirely unified. However, > I do think that NABS might be less likely to have a unified opinion on > things because we have a membership that's constantly in flux; many of > our members are quite new to the NFB and so might not be fully aware of > our philosophy and how it functions. This is true in other NFB > divisions, but it especially seems true with NABS. I've heard that NABS > has always exhibited this characteristic from past NABS members. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Hi all, >> Could I get your thoughts on something?...... >> How unified do you think we are as a large division of students in >> the NFB? > >> We represent most of, if not all of the states, and have a wide >> aray of talents, prospectives and ideas. We have leaders, we have >> student divisions in our states, but do you think we are as united >> as we can and should be? > >> Are we as united as, say our state affiliates? > >> If you think the answer is "no", what do you think it will take from >> each of us to make this happen? > >> Darian > > > >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > >> ? Robert Byrne > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% >> 40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:18:24 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > > <20110313041824.28348.8763 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > > What complicates the issue is that there is a lot of variation in how > multiply disabled persons view each of their disabilities in turn. I > had an opportunity to visit the deaf-blind division and was seriously > disappointed. I hoped that the division would have as positive > philosophy about their deafness as they did about their blindness. > Instead, I found that they treated their hearing loss as most sighted > people treat vision loss: they tried to maximize their hearing and > seemed like they didn't want to be identified as deaf. I hope things > have changed since then; I visited in 2004, I think. I'm pretty sure > that there are other deaf-blind individuals who feel differently about > their deafness; differences like these may make it difficult to form a > unified division such as the deaf-blind division. Hell, if i were deaf, > I'd just apply Jernigan's philosophy and move on from there. I'd learn > the alternative techniques of deafness, integrate them with my > alternative techniques of blindness, learn about new and exciting > technologies and techniques for achieving whatever I'd like to achieve, > and have a good time at it. That's just me though. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >>> Marsha: >> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. > >> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think >> we >> as the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. > >> Jorge > > > >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > >>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>> hearing impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, >>> but I am hard of hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it > >>> promoted as much as say the parents, or the students? No, not at all. > >>> Are these disabilities any less than our blindness? No, not at all. >>> But then my question is that why are those of us who are hard of >>> hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or whatever you want to call it, >>> second class to those vanilla blind persons in the NFB? Why are those > >>> vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who can't do >>> things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that > >>> has kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this >>> matter. But frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who >>> are blind for their abilities or the lack of skills. And its those >>> same people who judge others for the additional disabilities they may > >>> have. > >>> Just my two cents, >>> Marsha > > > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >>> Behalf Of Brice Smith >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > >>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective >>> of this professional, more and more students who are blind often have > >>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now >>> living longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She >>> notes that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with >>> students who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I >>> do not have any hard data or research to back up any of these >>> observations. > >>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>> disabilities. > >>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a >>> testament to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people >>> and raise a unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the > >>> number of people with blindness as their only disability is >>> shrinking, what does this mean for our future? > >>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the >>> future of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and > >>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future > >>> and years to come. > >>> Any thoughts are welcome. > >>> Brice > >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth >>> %40gmai >>> l.com > > >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>> http://www.eset.com > > > >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>> http://www.eset.com > > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40 >>> mac.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi% >> 40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:24:50 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > > <20110313042450.28483.75943 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > > Ah, but then don't we assume that multi-disabled persons do better in > sheltered shops more than in "the real world?" Something to think about. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> For example, what if we pushed for rehab agencies to shut down >> sheltered workshops because many blind people were placed there >> wrongfully. What happens to the people with multiple disabilities, >> which may include blindness, whose lives may have been better from >> working at these workshops? > > > >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > >>> Kirt, > >>> While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, >>> reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. > >>> Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their >>> resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our >>> organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve >>> self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for >>> collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help >>> people with additional disabilities in this framework without >>> compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always >>> happen. > >>> Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with >>> our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak >>> directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we > do >>> when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in the >>> future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the >>> cutting-edge? > >>> As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a question >>> that we need to consider as we move forward. > >>> Brice > >>> On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >>>> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with > other >>>> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted > and >>>> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, > especially >>>> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that > regard, >>>> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many > of >>>> us love complaining about. >>>> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >>>> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >>>> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >>>> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the > same >>>> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen > as >>>> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >>>> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >>>> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >>>> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >>>> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help > each >>>> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >>>> disabilities, not just blindness. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt > >>>> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> Marsha: >>>>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. > >>>>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I > think we as >>>>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. > >>>>> Jorge > > > >>>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > >>>>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>>>>> hearing >>>>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I > am hard >>>>>> of >>>>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as > much as >>>>>> say >>>>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these > disabilities any >>>>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is > that why >>>>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, > or >>>>>> whatever >>>>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons > in the >>>>>> NFB? >>>>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us > who >>>>>> can't >>>>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of > people, that >>>>>> has >>>>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this > matter. >>>>>> But >>>>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind > for >>>>>> their >>>>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who > judge >>>>>> others >>>>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. > >>>>>> Just my two cents, >>>>>> Marsha > > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Brice Smith >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > >>>>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the > perspective of >>>>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now > living >>>>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with > students >>>>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not > have >>>>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. > >>>>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there > are >>>>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action > Network. >>>>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or > mental >>>>>> disabilities. > >>>>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy > organizations >>>>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a > testament >>>>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise > a >>>>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number > of >>>>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what > does >>>>>> this mean for our future? > >>>>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the > future >>>>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the > future >>>>>> and years to come. > >>>>>> Any thoughts are welcome. > >>>>>> Brice > >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40 > gmai >>>>>> l.com > > >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>>> signature >>>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>>>> http://www.eset.com > > > >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>>> signature >>>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>>>> http://www.eset.com > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac > .com > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 > 0gmail.com > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 > 0gmail.com > > > >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail > .com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 > samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:29:01 -0500 > From: NabslinkAudioWebMaster > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] New Nabs Conference Call Is Available For Download > Message-ID: > > > > Greetings! > This is an automatic notification to let you know that our latest > conference call has been uploaded, and is now ready for you to download. > > Title: The Nabs Conference Call For March 2011 > Description: On this call, we had the chance to hear about the summer > programs offered by four of the leading training centers in the country: > The three major centers in Minnesota (Blind Inc), Colorado (The Colorado > Center For The Blind), Louisiana (The Louisiana Center For The Blind), > and Baltimore (Bysm) > Learn about the various summer programs that these fine centers offer, > and how you can get involved. > > > > You can download the show directly at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations/March2011Call.mp3 > > Alternatively you can visit the archive page at: > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org/audio/presentations > to hear some of the other calls we've done. > Best regards, > David Dunphy And The Nabs Membership Committee > http://www.nabslinkaudio.org > http://www.nabslink.org > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:35:43 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > > <20110313043543.11790.74486 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > > Please forgive me for what I'm about to say as it might seem quite > blunt. On the other hand, I think it needs to be said. > > I believe that we as blind people (and especially blind people with > other disabilities) set low expectations for ourselves, meet them and > don't go outside of them, thus fulfill our own low expectations and the > prophecies that come with them. I do think that training at a center is > a good idea for people who want to improve their skill sets or for > people who didn't have access to good training from the beginning. I > also think that we do tend to set our expectations low, then get > defensive when someone else challenges these low expectations with > something we don't want to hear; we do this to rationalize our low > expectations and thus maintain the status quo. I think we've got to be > careful as it's so easy to do. I've seen people with multiple > disabilities come leaps and bounds after working at one of our centers. > I've also seen multi-disabled people battle low expectations about > their other disabilities while at our centers. It frustrates me, but > there you have it. The bottom line is that we, as Jernigan pointed out > so many times, are a reflection of our own society; we also tend to > accept social biases and expectation levels. Therefore, we absolutely > must not take anything for granted and consider the possibility that we > are selling ourselves short (or selling others short). The next time > (Marsha) that someone challenges you to go to a center, don't take it > as a judgement regarding your skills or your various disabilities, > consider it as a challenge to grow and find new and exciting ways to > accomplish what you currently think of as overwhelming or altogether > impossible. I'm encouraging you to think of it this way because I truly > think that was the spirit in which the challenge to attend a center was > meant. I'm not defending anyone's rudeness, I'm just saying. > > Respectfully Submitted, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Marsha, >> I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you told that individual that you have > a >> hearing loss and that presented additional challenges. >> Why is it that some judgemental people in NFB feel any deficit such as >> travel skills can be rectified by attending a center? >> People can have other challenges; teaching you can only go so far. For >> instance I've known people who received cane training for years, some >> structured discovery, some traditional, who cannot walk straight and > they >> veer on streets. Others have trouble crossing streets and either may > get >> assistance with it or ask for an audible signal; training, such as >> interpreting sound cues, can only go so far. You got to have some > sense of >> direction for it to work well. >> Hotels are hard for anyone to navigate; especially big ones like > conventions >> are in. >> As much as we talk independence, sight does help navigate crowds. >> Know why Jernigan and now Dr. Maurer have sighted guides often? >> Its faster and efficient! >> In new open areas, that is faster. > >> Joshua said he needs help in unfamiliar places and sticks to learned > routes >> in those spots. >> I'm a good cane traveler, but the orientation part is challenging; > mobility >> part I can do; I just have trouble making mental maps and organizing > space. >> Certainly I've traveled alone a bit in hotels including for state >> convention, but I memorize main things like where the elevator is. > > >> I've seen people judged also for not reading braille efficiently or > fast. >> It may be a number of reasons such as tactile sensativity is lacking. > >> I hope nfb comes more open in the future. >> Ashley >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Marsha Drenth >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:02 PM >> To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > >> Kirt, > >> Very well said. And I agree completely. As a blind person, as a person > with >> other disabilities, I never ever judge anyone for their abilities or > their >> lack of skills, or the alternative ways they may do something. I do > not >> judge others, because I do not want to be judged. > >> Prime example, at the national convention. It's a huge hotel, I got a > little >> disorientated. Granted I have been in this hotel 3 times now. And when > I >> asked for help, I was treated as though my skills were not "good > enough". >> Its not my skills that need help, its my ears that do not work. And > when I >> explained this to said person I asked for help from, they said I > needed to >> go to a center for training. The hotel in Detroit was a nightmare for > me to >> navigate. > >> Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. I am not even saying any of you > would be >> so judgmental, but people do need to think of these things. > >> Marsha > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf >> Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:27 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > >> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other >> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and >> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially >> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, >> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of >> us love complaining about. >> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same >> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as >> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >> disabilities, not just blindness. >> Best, >> Kirt > >> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Marsha: >>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. > >>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think > we as >>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. > >>> Jorge > > > >>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > >>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >> hearing >>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am > hard >>>> of >>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as > much as >>>> say >>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities > any >>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is > that why >>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>> whatever >>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in > the >>>> NFB? >>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >> can't >>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, > that >>>> has >>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this > matter. >>>> But >>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind > for >>>> their >>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>> others >>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. > >>>> Just my two cents, >>>> Marsha > > > >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] > On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Brice Smith >>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > >>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective > of >>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now > living >>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not > have >>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. > >>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>>> disabilities. > >>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a > testament >>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what > does >>>> this mean for our future? > >>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the > future >>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the > future >>>> and years to come. > >>>> Any thoughts are welcome. > >>>> Brice > >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40 > gmai >>>> l.com > > >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>> http://www.eset.com > > > >>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>> signature >>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>> http://www.eset.com > > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> nabs-l: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac > .com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 > 0gma >> il.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40 > gmai >> l.com > > >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >> http://www.eset.com > > > >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature >> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >> http://www.eset.com > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea > rthlink.net > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 > samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:57:56 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > > <20110313045756.11790.27777 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > > There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs > to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally > ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Joe, > >> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >> we learn to be more inclusive. > >> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >> something in the future. > >> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >> organization? > >> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > >> Brice > >> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> Brice, > >>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization > should do >>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only > disability >>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. > Instead, >>> tell us what you think should happen. > >>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to > feel >>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always > been >>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the > people >>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog > were >>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of > travel >>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people > where >>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel > inferior >>> without your consent." > >>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division > not being >>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal > access to >>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might > simply be >>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that > focus on >>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left > out, it >>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything > worth >>> promoting? > >>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when > power-hungry >>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. > Third, >>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were > president >>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to > eliminate >>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many > professional >>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within > our >>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. > >>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. > You are >>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend > so much >>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time > acting, >>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea > that if >>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to > exist >>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities > is to >>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the > organization >>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few > years >>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would > be >>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their > act >>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain > about what >>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not > doing >>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to > make a >>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be > addressed, >>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and > make a >>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique > needs. > >>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, > >>> Joe > >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their > sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 > 0gmail.com > > > >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 > samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 22:39:31 -0700 > From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Jedi, > I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability > culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other > disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, > for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever > culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as > possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of > how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to > me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, > even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If > part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to > each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, > anyone? Am I missing the mark? > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >> There are a number of disability communities that share similar > beliefs >> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Joe, >> >>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us > unless >>> we learn to be more inclusive. >> >>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as > a >>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't > do >>> something in the future. >> >>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>> organization? >> >>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. >> >>> Brice >> >>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>> Brice, >> >>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization > should >>>> do >>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>> disability >>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>> Instead, >>>> tell us what you think should happen. >> >>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to > feel >>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have > always >>>> been >>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>> people >>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide > dog >>>> were >>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of > travel >>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people > where >>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>> inferior >>>> without your consent." >> >>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division > not >>>> being >>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal > access >>>> to >>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might > simply be >>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that > focus >>>> on >>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left > out, it >>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything > worth >>>> promoting? >> >>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is > bogus. >>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between > national >>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>> power-hungry >>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>> Third, >>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at > the >>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>> president >>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to > eliminate >>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many > professional >>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups > within our >>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >> >>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. > You >>>> are >>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend > so >>>> much >>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time > acting, >>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea > that >>>> if >>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease > to >>>> exist >>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer > your >>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary > disabilities is >>>> to >>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>> organization >>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few > years >>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division > would be >>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their > act >>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain > about >>>> what >>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>>> doing >>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to > make >>>> a >>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be > addressed, >>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and > make a >>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>>> needs. >> >>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >> >>>> Joe >> >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>> sleeves, >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 > 0gmail.com >> >> >> >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 > samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 > 0gmail.com >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 00:48:21 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan > Message-ID: > > <20110313054821.12249.5194 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > > They're just as propaganda-hungry as the die-hard liberal talkshow > hosts. Just a thought. Bottom line is that one must consider all points > of view, all facts, and then make their own decisions and do what's > right according to their own values. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Bill ORieley, and Mike Huckabee, are the most trusted. I also like > Glenn Beck. >> Kirt, Beck is a Morman, (I thought I'd throw that out there.) >> Blessings, Joshua > >> On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> :) And you wonder why I don't much trust talkshow hosts. On both >>> sides of the isle. >>> Best, >>> Kirt > >>> On 3/11/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> Is that Rachel Maddow? Of course, she can't be taken seriously! > She's >>>> a propaganda-hungry liberal! >>>> This propaganda is not for this list. Thanks, Jorge, I concur with > you >>>> on that one. >>>> Blessings, Joshua > >>>> On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this? Cause, > just >>>>> going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case >>>>> outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her >>>>> all that seriously. Anyone wanna let me know what's really going > on >>>>> here? (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list. Heaven >>>>> knows this could turn in to something crazy) >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt > >>>>> On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> Andy: >>>>>> With all due respect, >>>>>> please do not post political propaganda on this list. > >>>>>> Jorge > > >>>>>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: > >>>>>>> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, >>>>>>> especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a > blindness >>>>>>> ishue, >>>>>>> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention > plan. It >>>>>>> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for > the >>>>>>> worst. >>>>>>> It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something > must be >>>>>>> done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth > as it >>>>>>> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than > just >>>>>>> raise >>>>>>> hackles. >>>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM > > > >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 > >>>>>>> Hi everyone. > >>>>>>> It's time for another community service conference call! We will > have >>>>>>> much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible > convention >>>>>>> service project. We will also have a discussion of summer >>>>>>> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. > Hope >>>>>>> you're on the call. > >>>>>>> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST > >>>>>>> Where: Call 218.339.3600 >>>>>>> Passcode: 808277 > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey > %40gmail.com > > >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac > .com > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 > 0gmail.com > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40st > udents.pccua.edu > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 > 0gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40st > udents.pccua.edu > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 > samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:06:53 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > > <20110313060653.29087.71137 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > > Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether > or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless > that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with > ours. > > The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can > identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the > unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of > the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the > foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated > professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that > could be considered a major cultural grouping. > > A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding > human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, > etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not > mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures > concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true > that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly > identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about > any reason under the sun. > > I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take > some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the > task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically > speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to > such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB > without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that > make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and > these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, > but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some > disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify > with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with > which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to > the role of disability in our lives. > > Respectfully submitted > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to >> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >> Best, >> Kirt > >> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar > beliefs >>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. > >>> Respectfully Submitted > >>> Original message: >>>> Joe, > >>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence > may >>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us > unless >>>> we learn to be more inclusive. > >>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as > a >>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't > do >>>> something in the future. > >>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize > diversity >>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>>> organization? > >>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > >>>> Brice > >>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>> Brice, > >>>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization > should >>>>> do >>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>>> disability >>>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>>> Instead, >>>>> tell us what you think should happen. > >>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to > feel >>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have > always >>>>> been >>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>>> people >>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide > dog >>>>> were >>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of > travel >>>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people > where >>>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess > Eleanor >>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>>> inferior >>>>> without your consent." > >>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division > not >>>>> being >>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal > access >>>>> to >>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might > simply be >>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that > focus >>>>> on >>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left > out, it >>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything > worth >>>>> promoting? > >>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is > bogus. >>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between > national >>>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>>> power-hungry >>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>>> Third, >>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at > the >>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>>> president >>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to > eliminate >>>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many > professional >>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups > within our >>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. > >>>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. > You >>>>> are >>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend > so >>>>> much >>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time > acting, >>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial > idea that >>>>> if >>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease > to >>>>> exist >>>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer > your >>>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary > disabilities is >>>>> to >>>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>>> organization >>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few > years >>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division > would be >>>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get > their act >>>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain > about >>>>> what >>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is > not >>>>> doing >>>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has > to make >>>>> a >>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be > addressed, >>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and > make a >>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their > unique >>>>> needs. > >>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, > >>>>> Joe > >>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>>> sleeves, >>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam > Ewing > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 > 0gmail.com > > > >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 > samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 > 0gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 > samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:18:26 -0700 > From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Jedi, > Fair enough...I'm not up for arguing, especially when lots of it > would probably involve semantics. I forfit, you win. :) All I will > say is that your analysis seems a little too cut-and-dry to me, and > there's very much a grey area between your four cultures. Maybe I > belong to all four...heck, I probably do. But that seems like it > excludes me from one or the other, because I'm not committed enough to > any particular organization and I'm not really "anti" any of them. In > your definition, we're all part of all sorts of cultures...which begs > a very important question and, I would say, brings this thread full > circle. You said culture is a set of shared common beliefs that > members adhear to. What, pray tell, are the common beliefs of the > NFB? I'm not sure that question's as easy to answer as it used to be. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >> Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether >> or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless >> that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with > ours. >> >> The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can >> identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the >> unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of >> the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the >> foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated >> professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that >> could be considered a major cultural grouping. >> >> A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding >> human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, > values, >> etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not >> mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures >> concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true >> that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but > strongly >> identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just > about >> any reason under the sun. >> >> I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take >> some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the >> task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically >> speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to >> such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB >> without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does > that >> make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and >> these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, >> but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some >> disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify >> with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with >> which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to >> the role of disability in our lives. >> >> Respectfully submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >>> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >>> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >>> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >>> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >>> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >>> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >>> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >>> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >>> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means > to >>> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >>> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >> >>> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar > beliefs >>>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >>>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. >> >>>> Respectfully Submitted >> >>>> Original message: >>>>> Joe, >> >>>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence > may >>>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us > unless >>>>> we learn to be more inclusive. >> >>>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years > ago >>>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community > as a >>>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't > do >>>>> something in the future. >> >>>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize > diversity >>>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can > we >>>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is > it >>>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>>>> organization? >> >>>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. >> >>>>> Brice >> >>>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>>> Brice, >> >>>>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization >>>>>> should >>>>>> do >>>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>>>> disability >>>>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>>>> Instead, >>>>>> tell us what you think should happen. >> >>>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to > feel >>>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have > always >>>>>> been >>>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but > the >>>>>> people >>>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide > dog >>>>>> were >>>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of >>>>>> travel >>>>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people >>>>>> where >>>>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess > Eleanor >>>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you > feel >>>>>> inferior >>>>>> without your consent." >> >>>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division > not >>>>>> being >>>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal >>>>>> access >>>>>> to >>>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might > simply >>>>>> be >>>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that >>>>>> focus >>>>>> on >>>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left > out, >>>>>> it >>>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything > worth >>>>>> promoting? >> >>>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is > bogus. >>>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between > national >>>>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>>>> power-hungry >>>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of > importance. >>>>>> Third, >>>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at > the >>>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>>>> president >>>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to > eliminate >>>>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many > professional >>>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups > within >>>>>> our >>>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >> >>>>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. > You >>>>>> are >>>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members > spend so >>>>>> much >>>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time >>>>>> acting, >>>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial > idea >>>>>> that >>>>>> if >>>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease > to >>>>>> exist >>>>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer > your >>>>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary > disabilities >>>>>> is >>>>>> to >>>>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>>>> organization >>>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A > few >>>>>> years >>>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a > GLBT >>>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division > would >>>>>> be >>>>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get > their >>>>>> act >>>>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain > about >>>>>> what >>>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is > not >>>>>> doing >>>>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has > to >>>>>> make >>>>>> a >>>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be >>>>>> addressed, >>>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and > make >>>>>> a >>>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their > unique >>>>>> needs. >> >>>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >> >>>>>> Joe >> >>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>>>> sleeves, >>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam > Ewing >> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 > 0gmail.com >> >> >> >>>>> -- >>>>> Brice Smith >>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 > samobile.net >> >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 > 0gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 > samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 > 0gmail.com >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 08:48:52 -0400 > From: Jewel > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] improving our divisions > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Sean, > I also appreciate the Slate a lot. It's a good newsletter. Are you on > the NFB Editors list? We've been talking about newsletter construction > lately. > > On 3/12/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Sean, >> I appreciate the efforts to get the slate out regularly! I found the >> articles of high quality and >> inspiring. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sean Whalen >> Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:25 PM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] improving our divisions >> >> Not to split hairs here, but the Student Slate has come out every > quarter, >> September, December, March and June, since this board was elected. > That is >> not "fairly" regularly, that is clockwork. Karen Anderson and I > promised >> that we would adhere to a schedule of quarterly publication, and we, > with >> the help of many of you who have written or helped to find articles, > have >> done exactly that. This is the first time in my limited memory that > this has >> been achieved, and, if I get the chance, I hope to do the same over > the next >> two years. I really encourage everybody on the list to at least glance >> through each issue to see if there are articles that pique your > interest. I >> feel that we have, generally speaking, had a very high level of > quality in >> the articles we have put out. The March 2011 issue will be out shortly > for >> those who are interested, and back issues can be found on > www.nabslink.org. >> >> >> >> Sorry, I'm not trying to shamelessly plug our work, but want everybody > to >> know that the resource is out there, as many of us put a good amount > of work >> into bringing each newsletter together. >> >> >> >> Take care, >> >> >> >> Sean >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea > rthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40 > gmail.com >> > > > -- > Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! > Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17 > ************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Sun Mar 13 21:39:28 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 14:39:28 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] SAT testing Message-ID: Hello, Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! Thanks, humberto From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 21:40:12 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:40:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Our own low expectations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Society's perceptions may begin from ignorance, but this ignorance continues because people refuse-- for many reasons-- to set higher expectations for themselves. I too will be blunt-- and I am not referring to anyone on this list-- and say I am sick of running into blind people who have no other disability, but have never considered even trying to achieve higher goals. And often these people are ones who have encountered a positive philosophy, but do not buy into it. Until more of us learn to live up to our full potential, we will never change perceptions. I knew someone who trained at a good center, possessed an outward knowledge of the skills and talked a good talk, but in conversations, I learned that they were accepting preferential treatment from professors, and instead of doing their work, they were okay with taking the easy route out. I later had one of these instructors and of course, based on prior experience, they assumed I required the same treatment. Not only did I not accept the easier route, but I ended up with a much better grade in the class. Having said all that, some conditions or disabilities when threaded in with blindness do create more obstacles to overcome. This is not a reason to give up or not try, but we must understand that the more barriers surrounding a person means there may be more work in knocking those barriers down. And in general, we all learn in different ways at different levels. We must learn compassion and patience because knocking heads or excluding people or expecting cookie-cutter results, will not draw people towards us. We all come to the table with our experiences, emotions and baggage and we must understand that we will not all progress together. However, challenging ourselves and one another should happen and it is healthy. It sounds cheesey, but until we die, we always have more to learn. And I leave on this note, do not disregard anything or doubt the possibility of something until you have attempted the leap. Do not shun advice or information until you have exhausted your research. Bridgit Message: 14 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:35:43 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313043543.11790.74486 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Please forgive me for what I'm about to say as it might seem quite blunt. On the other hand, I think it needs to be said. I believe that we as blind people (and especially blind people with other disabilities) set low expectations for ourselves, meet them and don't go outside of them, thus fulfill our own low expectations and the prophecies that come with them. I do think that training at a center is a good idea for people who want to improve their skill sets or for people who didn't have access to good training from the beginning. I also think that we do tend to set our expectations low, then get defensive when someone else challenges these low expectations with something we don't want to hear; we do this to rationalize our low expectations and thus maintain the status quo. I think we've got to be careful as it's so easy to do. I've seen people with multiple disabilities come leaps and bounds after working at one of our centers. I've also seen multi-disabled people battle low expectations about their other disabilities while at our centers. It frustrates me, but there you have it. The bottom line is that we, as Jernigan pointed out so many times, are a reflection of our own society; we also tend to accept social biases and expectation levels. Therefore, we absolutely must not take anything for granted and consider the possibility that we are selling ourselves short (or selling others short). The next time (Marsha) that someone challenges you to go to a center, don't take it as a judgement regarding your skills or your various disabilities, consider it as a challenge to grow and find new and exciting ways to accomplish what you currently think of as overwhelming or altogether impossible. I'm encouraging you to think of it this way because I truly think that was the spirit in which the challenge to attend a center was meant. I'm not defending anyone's rudeness, I'm just saying. Respectfully Submitted, Jedi Original message: > Marsha, > I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you told that individual that you have a > hearing loss and that presented additional challenges. > Why is it that some judgemental people in NFB feel any deficit such as > travel skills can be rectified by attending a center? > People can have other challenges; teaching you can only go so far. For > instance I've known people who received cane training for years, some > structured discovery, some traditional, who cannot walk straight and they > veer on streets. Others have trouble crossing streets and either may get > assistance with it or ask for an audible signal; training, such as > interpreting sound cues, can only go so far. You got to have some sense of > direction for it to work well. > Hotels are hard for anyone to navigate; especially big ones like conventions > are in. > As much as we talk independence, sight does help navigate crowds. > Know why Jernigan and now Dr. Maurer have sighted guides often? > Its faster and efficient! > In new open areas, that is faster. > Joshua said he needs help in unfamiliar places and sticks to learned routes > in those spots. > I'm a good cane traveler, but the orientation part is challenging; mobility > part I can do; I just have trouble making mental maps and organizing space. > Certainly I've traveled alone a bit in hotels including for state > convention, but I memorize main things like where the elevator is. > I've seen people judged also for not reading braille efficiently or fast. > It may be a number of reasons such as tactile sensativity is lacking. > I hope nfb comes more open in the future. > Ashley > -----Original Message----- > From: Marsha Drenth > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 9:02 PM > To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Kirt, > Very well said. And I agree completely. As a blind person, as a person with > other disabilities, I never ever judge anyone for their abilities or their > lack of skills, or the alternative ways they may do something. I do not > judge others, because I do not want to be judged. > Prime example, at the national convention. It's a huge hotel, I got a little > disorientated. Granted I have been in this hotel 3 times now. And when I > asked for help, I was treated as though my skills were not "good enough". > Its not my skills that need help, its my ears that do not work. And when I > explained this to said person I asked for help from, they said I needed to > go to a center for training. The hotel in Detroit was a nightmare for me to > navigate. > Okay, I'll get off my soap box now. I am not even saying any of you would be > so judgmental, but people do need to think of these things. > Marsha > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 8:27 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, > I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other > disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and > ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially > within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, > we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of > us love complaining about. > True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does > blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. > Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it > impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same > techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as > a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking > about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to > blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone > who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not > who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each > other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and > disabilities, not just blindness. > Best, > Kirt > On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Marsha: >> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >> Jorge >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are > hearing >>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>> of >>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>> say >>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>> whatever >>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>> NFB? >>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who > can't >>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>> has >>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>> But >>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>> their >>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>> others >>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >>> Just my two cents, >>> Marsha >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Brice Smith >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>> disabilities. >>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>> this mean for our future? >>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>> and years to come. >>> Any thoughts are welcome. >>> Brice >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40 gmai >>> l.com >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> http://www.eset.com >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature >>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> http://www.eset.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gma > il.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40 gmai > l.com > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > http://www.eset.com > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5934 (20110307) __________ > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > http://www.eset.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:57:56 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313045756.11790.27777 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Joe, > Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may > gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the > arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I > think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless > we learn to be more inclusive. > But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago > because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a > whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, > assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple > disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more > important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do > something in the future. > to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity > and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at > what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we > protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it > time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the > organization? > I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > Brice > On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Brice, >> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should do >> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only disability >> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. Instead, >> tell us what you think should happen. >> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always been >> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the people >> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog were >> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel inferior >> without your consent." >> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not being >> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access to >> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus on >> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >> promoting? >> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when power-hungry >> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. Third, >> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were president >> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You are >> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so much >> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that if >> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to exist >> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is to >> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the organization >> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about what >> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not doing >> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make a >> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique needs. >> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >> Joe >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 0gmail.com > -- > Brice Smith > North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 22:39:31 -0700 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Jedi, I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, anyone? Am I missing the mark? Best, Kirt On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: > There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs > to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally > ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> Joe, > >> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >> we learn to be more inclusive. > >> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >> something in the future. > >> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >> organization? > >> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > >> Brice > >> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> Brice, > >>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should >>> do >>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>> disability >>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>> Instead, >>> tell us what you think should happen. > >>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>> been >>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>> people >>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>> were >>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>> inferior >>> without your consent." > >>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >>> being >>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access >>> to >>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus >>> on >>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >>> promoting? > >>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>> power-hungry >>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>> Third, >>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>> president >>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. > >>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You >>> are >>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >>> much >>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that >>> if >>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>> exist >>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is >>> to >>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>> organization >>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >>> what >>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>> doing >>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make >>> a >>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>> needs. > >>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, > >>> Joe > >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>> sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 0gmail.com > > > >> -- >> Brice Smith >> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 00:48:21 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] imergency in Michigan Message-ID: <20110313054821.12249.5194 at domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" They're just as propaganda-hungry as the die-hard liberal talkshow hosts. Just a thought. Bottom line is that one must consider all points of view, all facts, and then make their own decisions and do what's right according to their own values. Respectfully Submitted Original message: > Bill ORieley, and Mike Huckabee, are the most trusted. I also like Glenn Beck. > Kirt, Beck is a Morman, (I thought I'd throw that out there.) > Blessings, Joshua > On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> :) And you wonder why I don't much trust talkshow hosts. On both >> sides of the isle. >> Best, >> Kirt >> On 3/11/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> Is that Rachel Maddow? Of course, she can't be taken seriously! She's >>> a propaganda-hungry liberal! >>> This propaganda is not for this list. Thanks, Jorge, I concur with you >>> on that one. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> On 3/11/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Anyone know where I can look at the other side of this? Cause, just >>>> going off of this lady's blatant way of picking out the worst-case >>>> outcome of this whole thing...I'm honestly inclined to not take her >>>> all that seriously. Anyone wanna let me know what's really going on >>>> here? (and please, if you do reply to me, do so off-list. Heaven >>>> knows this could turn in to something crazy) >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> On 3/11/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> Andy: >>>>> With all due respect, >>>>> please do not post political propaganda on this list. >>>>> Jorge >>>>> On Mar 11, 2011, at 6:21 PM, Andi wrote: >>>>>> I know this is not a national matter, but it is gravely sirious, >>>>>> especially for those living in MI. It is not exactly a blindness >>>>>> ishue, >>>>>> but will effect anyone on SSI or SSDI, and thoes on a pention plan. It >>>>>> will also effect almost every aspect of thoes living in MI for the >>>>>> worst. >>>>>> It is like big brother or something headed that way. Something must be >>>>>> done!! Hear is a link explaining it all. It is not as in-depth as it >>>>>> could be about the matter but gives enough details to more than just >>>>>> raise >>>>>> hackles. >>>>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUpO1QFMDtM >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: community service Outreach >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:29 PM >>>>>> To: nabs-l >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Community service call Sunday March 13 >>>>>> Hi everyone. >>>>>> It's time for another community service conference call! We will have >>>>>> much discussion this Sunday. We will discuss a possible convention >>>>>> service project. We will also have a discussion of summer >>>>>> oppertunities for service and especially working with youth. Hope >>>>>> you're on the call. >>>>>> When: March 13th 7 P.M. EST >>>>>> Where: Call 218.339.3600 >>>>>> Passcode: 808277 >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/adrianne.dempsey %40gmail.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40st udents.pccua.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40st udents.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:06:53 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313060653.29087.71137 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with ours. The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that could be considered a major cultural grouping. A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about any reason under the sun. I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to the role of disability in our lives. Respectfully submitted Original message: > Jedi, > I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability > culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other > disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, > for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever > culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as > possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of > how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to > me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, > even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If > part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to > each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, > anyone? Am I missing the mark? > Best, > Kirt > On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >> There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs >> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. >> Respectfully Submitted >> Original message: >>> Joe, >>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >>> we learn to be more inclusive. >>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >>> something in the future. >>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>> organization? >>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. >>> Brice >>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>> Brice, >>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization should >>>> do >>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>> disability >>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>> Instead, >>>> tell us what you think should happen. >>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>>> been >>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>> people >>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>>> were >>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of travel >>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people where >>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>> inferior >>>> without your consent." >>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >>>> being >>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal access >>>> to >>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply be >>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that focus >>>> on >>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, it >>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >>>> promoting? >>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>> power-hungry >>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>> Third, >>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>> president >>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within our >>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. >>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You >>>> are >>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >>>> much >>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time acting, >>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea that >>>> if >>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>>> exist >>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities is >>>> to >>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>> organization >>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few years >>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would be >>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their act >>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >>>> what >>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>>> doing >>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to make >>>> a >>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be addressed, >>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make a >>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>>> needs. >>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, >>>> Joe >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>> sleeves, >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 0gmail.com >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2011 23:18:26 -0700 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Jedi, Fair enough...I'm not up for arguing, especially when lots of it would probably involve semantics. I forfit, you win. :) All I will say is that your analysis seems a little too cut-and-dry to me, and there's very much a grey area between your four cultures. Maybe I belong to all four...heck, I probably do. But that seems like it excludes me from one or the other, because I'm not committed enough to any particular organization and I'm not really "anti" any of them. In your definition, we're all part of all sorts of cultures...which begs a very important question and, I would say, brings this thread full circle. You said culture is a set of shared common beliefs that members adhear to. What, pray tell, are the common beliefs of the NFB? I'm not sure that question's as easy to answer as it used to be. Best, Kirt On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: > Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether > or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless > that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with ours. > > The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can > identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the > unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of > the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the > foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated > professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that > could be considered a major cultural grouping. > > A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding > human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, > etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not > mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures > concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true > that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly > identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about > any reason under the sun. > > I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take > some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the > task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically > speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to > such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB > without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that > make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and > these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, > but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some > disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify > with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with > which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to > the role of disability in our lives. > > Respectfully submitted > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to >> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >> Best, >> Kirt > >> On 3/12/11, Jedi wrote: >>> There are a number of disability communities that share similar beliefs >>> to our own regarding disability. So, the thing we must do is ally >>> ourselves with disability cultures similar to our own. > >>> Respectfully Submitted > >>> Original message: >>>> Joe, > >>>> Something must eventually give. I do believe the NFB's prominence may >>>> gradually fade if something is not done. You have touched on the >>>> arrogance of our organization's leadership in earlier posts, and I >>>> think that arrogance and NFB snobbishness may slowly destroy us unless >>>> we learn to be more inclusive. > >>>> But while it might sound cold, I did not join the NFB four years ago >>>> because I wanted to fight specifically for the disabled community as a >>>> whole. I am weary of watering down our policies and core beliefs, >>>> assuming we would even need to, to cater to people with multiple >>>> disabilities besides blindness. I believe that quality is more >>>> important than quantity, and yet our quantity will fade if we don't do >>>> something in the future. > >>>> to lead on the cutting edge, I believe we need to recognize diversity >>>> and develop working relationships with other organizations. But at >>>> what cost, and is our national leadership willing to do this? Can we >>>> protect our own core beliefs while becoming more inclusive, or is it >>>> time we change the entire philosophy and structure of the >>>> organization? > >>>> I cannot tell you what we should do. I am not even sure myself. > >>>> Brice > >>>> On 3/8/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>> Brice, > >>>>> You are the future of the NFB. What do you think the organization >>>>> should >>>>> do >>>>> about its operations if you think blindness might not be the only >>>>> disability >>>>> affecting the membership? Don't speculate about what may happen. >>>>> Instead, >>>>> tell us what you think should happen. > >>>>> I don't know that I agree with this notion that people are made to feel >>>>> inferior because they have secondary disabilities. There have always >>>>> been >>>>> similar observations made about guide dog users in the NFB, but the >>>>> people >>>>> who disliked and looked down on me before I went and got my guide dog >>>>> were >>>>> going to dislike me and look down on me regardless of my choice of >>>>> travel >>>>> tools. I think part of me went and got Gator to show these people >>>>> where >>>>> they could stick their condescending views. Anyway, I guess Eleanor >>>>> Roosevelt was more polished when she said "no one can make you feel >>>>> inferior >>>>> without your consent." > >>>>> But, seriously, what's this nonsense about the deaf-blind division not >>>>> being >>>>> as promoted as the student or parent division? They all get equal >>>>> access >>>>> to >>>>> the convention program, and if you hear about it more, it might simply >>>>> be >>>>> owed to the size comparison between the groups. If divisions that >>>>> focus >>>>> on >>>>> conditions other than blindness feel as though they're being left out, >>>>> it >>>>> might be owed to the fact that the division is not doing anything worth >>>>> promoting? > >>>>> Mind you, I think the whole concept of divisions in the NFB is bogus. >>>>> First, a vast majority of them do absolutely nothing between national >>>>> conventions. Second, they create rifts in the membership when >>>>> power-hungry >>>>> members view elections in these divisions as a badge of importance. >>>>> Third, >>>>> they distract us from the more important task of chipping away at the >>>>> fundamental challenges facing the blindness community. If I were >>>>> president >>>>> of the NFB for a day, my first order of business would be to eliminate >>>>> divisions in the way they exist today. There are so many professional >>>>> organizations out there that we shouldn't create mirror groups within >>>>> our >>>>> ranks to create little havens for blind people. > >>>>> My point is this: The NFB cannot exist without members like you. You >>>>> are >>>>> the current youth and will be the future leader. NFB members spend so >>>>> much >>>>> time accepting and not enough time questioning and even less time >>>>> acting, >>>>> and that is why several months ago I advanced the controversial idea >>>>> that >>>>> if >>>>> the NFB keeps going down its current path, it will virtually cease to >>>>> exist >>>>> in 50 years. More on that point in a future post, but to answer your >>>>> question: The way you accommodate people with secondary disabilities >>>>> is >>>>> to >>>>> encourage them to get involved. Get on the boards and make the >>>>> organization >>>>> recognize and react to what may be a change in demographics. A few >>>>> years >>>>> ago when a group of people proposed the idea of establishing a GLBT >>>>> division, they were told that with enough support, the division would >>>>> be >>>>> established. I think we're still waiting on this group to get their >>>>> act >>>>> together about drumming up support. It's not enough to complain about >>>>> what >>>>> you, you in the general sense, think the NFB leadership is or is not >>>>> doing >>>>> to accommodate certain members. Just like the NFB as a whole has to >>>>> make >>>>> a >>>>> good case to the general public that certain issues need to be >>>>> addressed, >>>>> blind people with secondary disabilities need to come together and make >>>>> a >>>>> case for why we as a whole need to be more conscious of their unique >>>>> needs. > >>>>> Just my twenty dollar's worth, > >>>>> Joe > >>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>>> sleeves, >>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 0gmail.com > > > >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net > >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40 samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 08:48:52 -0400 From: Jewel To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] improving our divisions Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sean, I also appreciate the Slate a lot. It's a good newsletter. Are you on the NFB Editors list? We've been talking about newsletter construction lately. On 3/12/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Sean, > I appreciate the efforts to get the slate out regularly! I found the > articles of high quality and > inspiring. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sean Whalen > Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2011 1:25 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] improving our divisions > > Not to split hairs here, but the Student Slate has come out every quarter, > September, December, March and June, since this board was elected. That is > not "fairly" regularly, that is clockwork. Karen Anderson and I promised > that we would adhere to a schedule of quarterly publication, and we, with > the help of many of you who have written or helped to find articles, have > done exactly that. This is the first time in my limited memory that this has > been achieved, and, if I get the chance, I hope to do the same over the next > two years. I really encourage everybody on the list to at least glance > through each issue to see if there are articles that pique your interest. I > feel that we have, generally speaking, had a very high level of quality in > the articles we have put out. The March 2011 issue will be out shortly for > those who are interested, and back issues can be found on www.nabslink.org. > > > > Sorry, I'm not trying to shamelessly plug our work, but want everybody to > know that the resource is out there, as many of us put a good amount of work > into bringing each newsletter together. > > > > Take care, > > > > Sean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40 gmail.com > -- Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17 ************************************** From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 22:04:09 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:04:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Culture is based on a civilization containing its own religion, customs, beliefs, language and code of ethics. This does not define an organization like the NFB or ACB. Yes, we have a philosophy about blindness itself, but this "philosophy" is strictly about how one lives as a blind person in one's own established culture. In fact, there is information on the NFB's website regarding this very topic, and the same point is made-- the NFB is not a culture or even sub-culture. Any values or beliefs we hold are only united by our blindness, but if we were to look at each individual, we would find these concepts vary. Organizations like the NFB contain people coming from all socio-economic backgrounds with differing views on religion and belief systems. And in anthropological and historical terms, we certainly do not have a common language unique to us nor do we have customs specific to our group. Because we mostly agree on what blindness means-- a minor disability that allows us to achieve equal success-- this does not mean we create a culture. We use a cane or dog to navigate, but this is our equivalence to using eyes; many of us use Braille, but it is merely a tactile of the language already used by society at large; we have views about how blind people should live and be treated, but these are based on our concepts of disability, and they are based on general rules of how people in general should be treated. So I believe using the word culture is a misuse of the word. In fact, saying that the NFB is its own culture places a distinction between us and those who are not us which creates a divide. We live, work and play in this society so our culture is the one adopted by our civilization and the group (family and friends) we associate ourselves with. By your argument, the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are their own culture too, or The Daughters of the American Revolution or PETA. Because we have common interest and choose to organize to promote our common interest and goals, does not mean we have developed a culture. Bridgit Message: 18 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:06:53 -0500 From: Jedi To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: <20110313060653.29087.71137 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with ours. The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that could be considered a major cultural grouping. A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about any reason under the sun. I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to the role of disability in our lives. Respectfully submitted Original message: > Jedi, > I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability > culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other > disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, > for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever > culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as > possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of > how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to > me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, > even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If > part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to > each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, > anyone? Am I missing the mark? > Best, > Kirt From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 22:31:42 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:31:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] SAT testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Humberto, Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick Molloy On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: > Hello, > Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very > interesting in fact. But I have a question: > Has anyone taken the SAT college entrance examination to enter > into college or scholarships? If yes, tell me any experiences > you've had with this test. If not, please wish me luck, because > well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! > > Thanks, > humberto > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 22:33:42 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:33:42 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bridget, You know...I'm starting to think Jedi might be right. Culture doesn't mean lifestyle...it's more like community. So I'm part of the Mormon culture and blind culture and (cause I'm a basketball junkie and writing in a selection Sunday comercial break) a part of the basketball culture. I'm part of the Interfaith dialogue culture and the Mountain Dew culture (cause that drink's just amazing)...I'm part of the facebook enthusiasts culture and the fantasy book reading culture. Heck...I like girls, I'm part of the heterosexual culture. But man I think I'm oversimplifying this...but that's how I see the blindness community- an interest that matters a good deal more than mountain dew and basketball, but not nearly as much as girls, my faith, or interfaith dialogue. So, if all those things are cultures, I guess I'm part of the "nfb culture", too. Best, Kirt On 3/13/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Culture is based on a civilization containing its own religion, customs, > beliefs, language and code of ethics. This does not define an > organization like the NFB or ACB. Yes, we have a philosophy about > blindness itself, but this "philosophy" is strictly about how one lives > as a blind person in one's own established culture. > > In fact, there is information on the NFB's website regarding this very > topic, and the same point is made-- the NFB is not a culture or even > sub-culture. > > Any values or beliefs we hold are only united by our blindness, but if > we were to look at each individual, we would find these concepts vary. > Organizations like the NFB contain people coming from all socio-economic > backgrounds with differing views on religion and belief systems. > > And in anthropological and historical terms, we certainly do not have a > common language unique to us nor do we have customs specific to our > group. > > Because we mostly agree on what blindness means-- a minor disability > that allows us to achieve equal success-- this does not mean we create a > culture. We use a cane or dog to navigate, but this is our equivalence > to using eyes; many of us use Braille, but it is merely a tactile of the > language already used by society at large; we have views about how blind > people should live and be treated, but these are based on our concepts > of disability, and they are based on general rules of how people in > general should be treated. > > So I believe using the word culture is a misuse of the word. In fact, > saying that the NFB is its own culture places a distinction between us > and those who are not us which creates a divide. We live, work and play > in this society so our culture is the one adopted by our civilization > and the group (family and friends) we associate ourselves with. > > By your argument, the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are their own culture > too, or The Daughters of the American Revolution or PETA. Because we > have common interest and choose to organize to promote our common > interest and goals, does not mean we have developed a culture. > > Bridgit > > Message: 18 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:06:53 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > > <20110313060653.29087.71137 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > > Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether > or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless > that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with > ours. > > The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can > identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the > unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of > the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the > foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated > professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that > could be considered a major cultural grouping. > > A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding > human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, values, > etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that does not > mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures > concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true > that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but strongly > identify with some of their cultural markers over others for just about > any reason under the sun. > > I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take > some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the > task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically > speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to > such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB > without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does that > make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, and > these may or may not have anything to do with a specific disability, > but may have more to do with how disability is defined. There are some > disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly not identify > with, others with which we would identify with some, and others with > which we share much in common in terms of our core values related to > the role of disability in our lives. > > Respectfully submitted > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means to >> each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. Thoughts, >> anyone? Am I missing the mark? >> Best, >> Kirt > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 23:20:14 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:20:14 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] NABS March Bulletin! Message-ID: Please find the bulletin below and the minutes from the February board meeting attached. Arielle National Association of Blind Students >From the Desk of the President March 13, 2011 In this bulletin: 1. Student Slate Coming Soon! 2. Next NABS Conference Call March 27 3. Last Chance to Apply for NFB Scholarships! 4. Start Planning for NFB National Convention! 5. State Division Announcements Student Slate Coming Soon: The spring 2011 issue of the Student Slate, our quarterly newsletter, should be released this week, so look for it in your email inboxes! This issue of the Student Slate will feature a report on the 2011 Washington Seminar, as well as several inspiring and informative articles written by blind students. Stay tuned! Next NABS Conference Call March 27: Each month, the NABS membership committee organizes a conference call discussion for blind students, prospective students, and parents and teachers of blind children. This month, on Sunday, March 27, we will be talking about the independence training programs at our three NFB training centers in Colorado, Louisiana, and Minnesota. Come to learn about these training programs, what you can gain from them and how to work with your state voc rehab agency to get there. Stay tuned for a separate announcement about this conference call. Can’t make it? Listen to the recording, as well as recordings of past conference calls, at www.nabslinkaudio.org . Last Chance to Apply for NFB National Scholarships: Each year, the National Federation of the Blind gives thirty scholarships to blind students, ranging in value from $3000 to $12000. The deadline to apply for this year’s scholarship competition is Thursday, March 31. To learn about the program and fill out an application, go to www.nfb.org/scholarships . Start Planning for NFB National Convention! This year, the NFB national convention will be in Orlando, Florida, from Sunday, July 3, through Friday, July 8. You can reserve a room at our hotel, the Rosen Shingle Creek Resort, by calling 866-996-6338. Depending on current availability, you may be able to extend your stay a few nights after the convention to explore the theme parks in Orlando, and still take advantage of our convention room rates: $63 for singles, doubles, and twins, and $67 for triples and quads, plus tax. Many NFB local chapters and state affiliates offer funding to help students attend national conventions. Contact your chapter or state president for details. You will see information about student/youth activities in upcoming NABS bulletins. Hope to see all of you in July! Division Announcements: >From Nebraska: The Nebraska Association of Blind Students (NABS) Presents The 2011 Student Seminar: Puzzle it Out- Collecting the Pieces of Success! What: It’s time for the Third Annual NABS student Seminar. We have gone beyond the horizons of our dreams and dived into the depths of our potential and now we are putting the puzzle pieces of our future together! This is an opportunity to learn the skills that can help you, your child or your student succeed, as well as network with fellow blind students, parents and teachers across Nebraska, and of course have fun!! When: The seminar begins at 6:00 PM on Friday, March 25, and ends Sunday, March 27 at 11:00 AM, so don’t worry about missing any class! Where: Doubletree Guest Suites 7270 Cedar St. Omaha, NE, 68124 Who: Blind Students of all ages, and the parents and teachers who want to see them succeed. Cost: The $20 registration fee will cover the cost of both your room and meals for the duration of the seminar. Scholarships are available for participants who are unable to cover the $20 registration. Preference will be given to those who request assistance first. Contact Karen Anderson (402-319-7645) if interested. >From North Carolina: The North Carolina Association of Blind Students is having its third annual student seminar on March 19th in Raleigh, NC. This event continues to grow. We launched a major recruitment initiative, where we called and emailed every one of the 128 institutions of higher education in our state, every services for the blind employee, and every teacher of the visually impaired in our state. Last year, we experimented with a small technology fair that consisted of impromptu exhibits run by our leaders and our state affiliate president. This year, we will have a full exhibit hall with 28 exhibits, including guide dog schools, adaptive recreation programs, adaptive technology, employment opportunities, blindness skill training centers, and more. Our exhibit hall will include agencies from many states, including California, New York, Minnesota, Florida, Kansas, Michigan, and others. We are also having all-day literature tables for those agencies that were not able to send representatives. We charged no fee for the exhibit hall and a creative new type of fee for the literature tables. We asked all agencies wanting to participate in the literature tables to provide us with at least one door prize to distribute on their behalf. This gives them easy advertising and us more door prizes. We will be having speakers in the morning to get attendees pumped up with the fact that blind people can do anything. Then, we’ll send them to the exhibit hall, followed by an hour for lunch (catered as a donation from Whole Foods Market). In the afternoon, we will have more speakers and 3 periods of breakout sessions. The last 45 minutes of our day will include speakers about different NFB events, such as the national convention, Washington Seminar, and the Blind Driver Challenge, to get attendees excited about the NFB. Finally, we will invite reflections from attendees and ask them to step up if they want to help plan a summer event. I will leave you with two pieces of advice from my experience in planning the seminar: 1. If you plan to have an exhibit hall, make sure that your seminar does not overlap with CSUN or any other major blindness event that will steal many of the smaller agencies’ representatives. 2. Don’t be afraid to ask your state affiliate for help. There are so many people in our state affiliate who are helping us make this seminar great. The Federation supports its future. >From California: Announcing the 2011 California Chemistry Camp for Blind High School Students! Would you like to learn how blind people tackle the very visual subject of organic chemistry successfully? Do you have a general love for science? Do you want to learn how you can do chemistry as a blind person just as successfully as your sighted peers? Are you interested in how blind professionals use science in their careers every day? Then the 2011 California Chemistry Camp is for you! Come join the National Federation of the Blind of California, the California Association of Blind Students, the Lighthouse for the Blind of San Francisco, the University of California, Davis chemistry department, and up to twelve blind and low-vision high school students for an Educational, exciting, and Fun-Filled weekend of science! When: Friday, April 29 through Sunday, May 1, 2011. Where: Enchanted Hills Camp near Napa, California. Who: Up to twelve blind high school students ages 14-18 will be selected to participate. Cost: There is no cost to apply for the program. The National Federation of the Blind of California, the California association of Blind Students, and the Lighthouse for the Blind of San Francisco are underwriting the camp. Once accepted, however, donations from students or parents to the National Federation of the Blind of California would be most appreciated to off-set the expenses associated with the program. During this exciting and busy 3-day experience, students will get to learn how blind people use chemistry in their careers, will explore techniques used by blind people to make chemistry accessible, perform hands-on accessible chemistry experiments, apply the chemistry they learned to some basic cooking, see the chemistry they learned turned into action with an exhilarating magic show, and talk with blind scientists who use science in their professional careers. The students will also be able to participate in recreational activities possibly including swimming and the martial art of Judo. Note that students need not only love science to apply. This will be a learning experience for all blind people! To fill out the application, go to: www.sixdots.org and follow the link on the main page to the application form. We hope to see you at camp! If you have questions, please contact: Henry Wedler Program Coordinator hobywedler at gmail.com -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Meeting_minutes_02.27.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 17216 bytes Desc: not available URL: From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 23:28:41 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:28:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] SAT testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I wish you the best of luck. On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Humberto, > Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse > than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, > it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and > concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! > All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may > not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you > longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT > 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. > Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. > Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. > Patrick Molloy > > On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >> Hello, >> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very >> interesting in fact. But I have a question: >> Has anyone taken the SAT college entrance examination to enter >> into college or scholarships? If yes, tell me any experiences >> you've had with this test. If not, please wish me luck, because >> well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >> >> Thanks, >> humberto >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Mar 14 00:29:19 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 20:29:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] SAT testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Humberto, I took the SAT before college but its changed since then. So they may not have the analogies section they used to have. Other parts are about vocabulary and reading comprehension. Of course I did badly on the math part as that is my weakest subject. These are my tips. If you are a good multiple choice test taker, apply some of the principles you do for regular tests.  Read directions and sample questions carefully.  As with other multiple choice tests, eliminate obvious wrong answers; then pick the est one.  If there is fill in the blank, read the sentence with the word choices you selected and see if it makes sense.  Don’t ponder on a question too long since you do not have all day; come back to questions you don’t know if you have time.  This tip may not work if you are taking the exam tomorrow, but if you retake it, practice/study ahead of time. Practice analogies. Know synomyms and antonyms for words. Stududy with a friend if you can find some test prep material. -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I wish you the best of luck. On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Humberto, > Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse > than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, > it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and > concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! > All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may > not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you > longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT > 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. > Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. > Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. > Patrick Molloy > > On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >> Hello, >> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very >> interesting in fact. But I have a question: >> Has anyone taken the SAT college entrance examination to enter >> into college or scholarships? If yes, tell me any experiences >> you've had with this test. If not, please wish me luck, because >> well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >> >> Thanks, >> humberto >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Mar 14 00:30:44 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 20:30:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] SAT testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <67513DBA33D240EE9325CF88566F157D@OwnerPC> Briana, You took it four times! Wow! I did it twice. I also did the pre SAT for practice. What sections does it test and what format? I hear they added a essay section. If so, how did you write your essay? How long was it supposed to be? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I wish you the best of luck. On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Humberto, > Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse > than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, > it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and > concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! > All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may > not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you > longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT > 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. > Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. > Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. > Patrick Molloy > > On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >> Hello, >> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very >> interesting in fact. But I have a question: >> Has anyone taken the SAT college entrance examination to enter >> into college or scholarships? If yes, tell me any experiences >> you've had with this test. If not, please wish me luck, because >> well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >> >> Thanks, >> humberto >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Mon Mar 14 01:58:22 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:58:22 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] SAT testing Message-ID: Yes, I registered to have accommodations for the test. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Brianna Scerenscko To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:28:41 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing >I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I >wish you the best of luck. >On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Humberto, >> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse >> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, >> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and >> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! >> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may >> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you >> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT >> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. >> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. >> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. >> Patrick Molloy >> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very >>> interesting in fact. But I have a question: >>> Has anyone taken the SAT college entrance examination to enter >>> into college or scholarships? If yes, tell me any experiences >>> you've had with this test. If not, please wish me luck, because >>> well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >>> Thanks, >>> humberto >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol loy%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%4 0gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From gpaikens at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 03:05:09 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 22:05:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: <20110313042450.28483.75943@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> References: <20110313042450.28483.75943@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: I wouldn't make that generalization about all people with multiple disabilities. I would submit that for some portion of the population, sheltered employment may offer a meaningful contribution to quality of life, such as the opportunity to express agency or self-determination by earning a wage. I don't think those opportunities would be available in a competitive employment environment. I would love to be wrong about this. Please share any alternative solutions you know of. -Greg On Mar 12, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Jedi wrote: > Ah, but then don't we assume that multi-disabled persons do better in sheltered shops more than in "the real world?" Something to think about. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> For example, what if we pushed for rehab agencies to shut down sheltered workshops because many blind people were placed there wrongfully. What happens to the people with multiple disabilities, which may include blindness, whose lives may have been better from working at these workshops? > > > >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > >>> Kirt, > >>> While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, >>> reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. > >>> Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their >>> resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our >>> organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve >>> self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for >>> collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help >>> people with additional disabilities in this framework without >>> compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always >>> happen. > >>> Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with >>> our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak >>> directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we do >>> when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in the >>> future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the >>> cutting-edge? > >>> As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a question >>> that we need to consider as we move forward. > >>> Brice > >>> On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >>>> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other >>>> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and >>>> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially >>>> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, >>>> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of >>>> us love complaining about. >>>> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >>>> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >>>> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >>>> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same >>>> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as >>>> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >>>> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >>>> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >>>> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >>>> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >>>> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >>>> disabilities, not just blindness. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt > >>>> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> Marsha: >>>>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. > >>>>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think we as >>>>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. > >>>>> Jorge > > > >>>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > >>>>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>>>>> hearing >>>>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am hard >>>>>> of >>>>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>>>>> say >>>>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>>>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>>>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>>>> whatever >>>>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>>>>> NFB? >>>>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>>>>> can't >>>>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>>>>> has >>>>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>>>>> But >>>>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>>>>> their >>>>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>>>> others >>>>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. > >>>>>> Just my two cents, >>>>>> Marsha > > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Brice Smith >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > >>>>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective of >>>>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now living >>>>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>>>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not have >>>>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. > >>>>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>>>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>>>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>>>>> disabilities. > >>>>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>>>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a testament >>>>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>>>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>>>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what does >>>>>> this mean for our future? > >>>>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the future >>>>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>>>>> and years to come. > >>>>>> Any thoughts are welcome. > >>>>>> Brice > >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>>>>> l.com > > >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>>> signature >>>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>>>> http://www.eset.com > > > >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>>> signature >>>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>>>> http://www.eset.com > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > > > >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From nabs.president at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 03:46:38 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 21:46:38 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB In-Reply-To: References: <20110313042450.28483.75943@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: I don't think anyone would advocate shutting down sheltered shops completely. The mere presence of the sheltered shops doesn't preclude us from finding competitive employment alternatives. For decades NFB has pushed to improve working conditions at sheltered shops, such as increasing the wages and allowing blind employees to advance to higher-status positions within the shops, and preventing people from being forced to work at the shops against their will. Arielle On 3/13/11, Greg Aikens wrote: > I wouldn't make that generalization about all people with multiple > disabilities. I would submit that for some portion of the population, > sheltered employment may offer a meaningful contribution to quality of life, > such as the opportunity to express agency or self-determination by earning a > wage. I don't think those opportunities would be available in a competitive > employment environment. I would love to be wrong about this. Please share > any alternative solutions you know of. > > -Greg > > On Mar 12, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Jedi wrote: > >> Ah, but then don't we assume that multi-disabled persons do better in >> sheltered shops more than in "the real world?" Something to think about. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> For example, what if we pushed for rehab agencies to shut down sheltered >>> workshops because many blind people were placed there wrongfully. What >>> happens to the people with multiple disabilities, which may include >>> blindness, whose lives may have been better from working at these >>> workshops? >> >> >> >>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Brice Smith wrote: >> >>>> Kirt, >> >>>> While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, >>>> reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. >> >>>> Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their >>>> resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our >>>> organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve >>>> self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for >>>> collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help >>>> people with additional disabilities in this framework without >>>> compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always >>>> happen. >> >>>> Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with >>>> our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak >>>> directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we do >>>> when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in the >>>> future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the >>>> cutting-edge? >> >>>> As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a question >>>> that we need to consider as we move forward. >> >>>> Brice >> >>>> On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >>>>> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with other >>>>> disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, doubted and >>>>> ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled friends, especially >>>>> within our organizations, to feel that same judgment? In that regard, >>>>> we seem to share an eary resemblence to the sighted public so many of >>>>> us love complaining about. >>>>> True other disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does >>>>> blindness, and we overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. >>>>> Why shun or belittle someone whose other disabilities make it >>>>> impossible, or at least more difficult than practical, to use the same >>>>> techniques we do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as >>>>> a one size fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking >>>>> about people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to >>>>> blindness, may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone >>>>> who thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not >>>>> who we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >>>>> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >>>>> disabilities, not just blindness. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >> >>>>> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> Marsha: >>>>>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> >>>>>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I think >>>>>> we as >>>>>> the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very similar issue. >> >>>>>> Jorge >> >> >> >>>>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> >>>>>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who are >>>>>>> hearing >>>>>>> impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary disability, but I am >>>>>>> hard >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities >>>>>>> any >>>>>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that >>>>>>> why >>>>>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>>>>> whatever >>>>>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> NFB? >>>>>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>>>>>> can't >>>>>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this >>>>>>> matter. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>>>>> others >>>>>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >> >>>>>>> Just my two cents, >>>>>>> Marsha >> >> >> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>>> Behalf >>>>>>> Of Brice Smith >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> >>>>>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>>>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the perspective >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> this professional, more and more students who are blind often have >>>>>>> multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical advancements have >>>>>>> made it so that children who previously did not survive are now >>>>>>> living >>>>>>> longer lives, but often with more profound impairments. She notes >>>>>>> that it is a "rare treat" for VI professionals to work with students >>>>>>> who are simply visually impaired. Please understand that I do not >>>>>>> have >>>>>>> any hard data or research to back up any of these observations. >> >>>>>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there are >>>>>>> many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action Network. >>>>>>> However, I think most people can agree that our organization is >>>>>>> concerned primarily with blindness and not other physical or mental >>>>>>> disabilities. >> >>>>>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy organizations >>>>>>> simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I think it is a >>>>>>> testament >>>>>>> to our strength that we gather thousands of blind people and raise a >>>>>>> unified voice that might otherwise go unheard. But if the number of >>>>>>> people with blindness as their only disability is shrinking, what >>>>>>> does >>>>>>> this mean for our future? >> >>>>>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the >>>>>>> future >>>>>>> of the organization with regards to membership recruitment and >>>>>>> legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>>>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>>>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the future >>>>>>> and years to come. >> >>>>>>> Any thoughts are welcome. >> >>>>>>> Brice >> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40gmai >>>>>>> l.com >> >> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>>>> signature >>>>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>>>>>> signature >>>>>>> database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com >> >> >> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 04:33:16 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 23:33:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 19 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kirt, But in the context of what you guys are saying, it doesn't really make sense. If merely sharing common interest or goals makes us a culture, then yes, religions and sports and liking one sex over another are a culture. We do not share all aspects of life with others that hold these interest though. Certain religions like Mormonism may be argued to be its own culture, but in general, take Christianity or contemporary western Judiasm, these religions are practiced around the world so what does that mean for the argument of culture? And for that matter, blind people are not unique to North America, we live in all parts of the world and we are involved in true aspects of culture-- customs and practices, languages, belief systems, artifacts, etc. So blindness only seems to set us a part from others in terms of sensory loss, but not as containing attributes specific to the blind only. And (yes, I know it was a joke) but heterosexuals and homosexuals may not share attraction to gender in common, but they do share the same need for love and companionship. They experience all the same feelings, just for different genders. This is how it is for the blind. I don't feel any different than I did before blindness even though society may hold certain views I disagree with. Some people are still racist, does this mean black people are not a part of American culture because some people are ignorant? I don't do different things from sighted people I know, though I may use different tools to do some things. I still experience life like my family and friends, and often we share common interest. I do believe this discussion comes down to semantics, and, I say this respectively, culture is not the proper word to be used. I believe whole-heartedly in the core of the NFB, but I do not gain a self-awareness or self identity from the organization or my blindness. How can we say blindness is just a characteristic, but in the same breath that we are a unique culture within already established culture where we all live? I presume none of us live in Federation communities, and no, training centers do not count because it is not permanent. *smile* We may agree to disagree, and that is okay. Does this mean we are not a part of the same culture? But we are Federationist! LOL I have yet to hear a valid argument-- for me-- that convinces me the NFB is a unique culture, and that blindness itself is a different identity. I will make this really controversial, this is why some argue (and even those among race-based groups) that no such thing as a black culture exist. Or for that matter, any racial group born in a particular country. Most my black friends do not identify as African -American because it implies that they were born in Africa, and they were not. I would argue a race has more complicated threads to pull into a discussion like this, but can we truly define ourselves based on a single attribute? Color, gender, disability? A culture must include various elements, and I fail to see how blindness, inspite of how you view the disability itself, constructs us as people. We say we make decisions or experience the world differently, but I have not witnessed this in my own life. I mean, if some aspect of me considered different, or at times, inferior, suddenly constitutes a culture, then as a woman, I belong to the culture of women. It does sound silly to me. *smile* Bridgit Message: 7 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:33:42 -0600 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Bridget, You know...I'm starting to think Jedi might be right. Culture doesn't mean lifestyle...it's more like community. So I'm part of the Mormon culture and blind culture and (cause I'm a basketball junkie and writing in a selection Sunday comercial break) a part of the basketball culture. I'm part of the Interfaith dialogue culture and the Mountain Dew culture (cause that drink's just amazing)...I'm part of the facebook enthusiasts culture and the fantasy book reading culture. Heck...I like girls, I'm part of the heterosexual culture. But man I think I'm oversimplifying this...but that's how I see the blindness community- an interest that matters a good deal more than mountain dew and basketball, but not nearly as much as girls, my faith, or interfaith dialogue. So, if all those things are cultures, I guess I'm part of the "nfb culture", too. Best, Kirt On 3/13/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Culture is based on a civilization containing its own religion, > customs, beliefs, language and code of ethics. This does not define > an organization like the NFB or ACB. Yes, we have a philosophy about > blindness itself, but this "philosophy" is strictly about how one > lives as a blind person in one's own established culture. > > In fact, there is information on the NFB's website regarding this very > topic, and the same point is made-- the NFB is not a culture or even > sub-culture. > > Any values or beliefs we hold are only united by our blindness, but if > we were to look at each individual, we would find these concepts vary. > Organizations like the NFB contain people coming from all > socio-economic backgrounds with differing views on religion and belief > systems. > > And in anthropological and historical terms, we certainly do not have > a common language unique to us nor do we have customs specific to our > group. > > Because we mostly agree on what blindness means-- a minor disability > that allows us to achieve equal success-- this does not mean we create > a culture. We use a cane or dog to navigate, but this is our > equivalence to using eyes; many of us use Braille, but it is merely a > tactile of the language already used by society at large; we have > views about how blind people should live and be treated, but these are > based on our concepts of disability, and they are based on general > rules of how people in general should be treated. > > So I believe using the word culture is a misuse of the word. In fact, > saying that the NFB is its own culture places a distinction between us > and those who are not us which creates a divide. We live, work and > play in this society so our culture is the one adopted by our > civilization and the group (family and friends) we associate ourselves > with. > > By your argument, the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are their own culture > too, or The Daughters of the American Revolution or PETA. Because we > have common interest and choose to organize to promote our common > interest and goals, does not mean we have developed a culture. > > Bridgit > > Message: 18 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:06:53 -0500 > From: Jedi > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > > <20110313060653.29087.71137 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" > > Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether > or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless > that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with > ours. > > The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can > identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the > unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of > the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the > foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated > professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that > could be considered a major cultural grouping. > > A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding > human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, > values, etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that > does not mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures > concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true > that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but > strongly identify with some of their cultural markers over others for > just about any reason under the sun. > > I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take > some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the > task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically > speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to > such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB > without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does > that make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, > and these may or may not have anything to do with a specific > disability, but may have more to do with how disability is defined. > There are some disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly > not identify with, others with which we would identify with some, and > others with which we share much in common in terms of our core values > related to the role of disability in our lives. > > Respectfully submitted > > Original message: >> Jedi, >> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, >> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means >> to each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. >> Thoughts, anyone? Am I missing the mark? >> Best, >> Kirt > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude > %40gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:20:14 -0600 From: Arielle Silverman To: Kentucky Students , Minnesota Students , Colorado Students , Kansas Students , Illinois Students , Louisiana Students , Missouri , Michigan , New Hampshire Students , blindkid , massabs at nfbnet.org, New Jersey Students , New Mexico Association of Blind Students , Nyabs , North Carolina Students , kansas-blind-students at nfbnet.org, Ohio , List for NABS State Presidents , Virginia Students , Nebraska , Arizona Students , Professionals in Blindness Education Division List , Utah Students , California Students , Florida Students , Tennessee Students , National Association of Blind Students mailing list , gabs , utahabs at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] NABS March Bulletin! Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Please find the bulletin below and the minutes from the February board meeting attached. Arielle National Association of Blind Students >From the Desk of the President March 13, 2011 In this bulletin: 1. Student Slate Coming Soon! 2. Next NABS Conference Call March 27 3. Last Chance to Apply for NFB Scholarships! 4. Start Planning for NFB National Convention! 5. State Division Announcements Student Slate Coming Soon: The spring 2011 issue of the Student Slate, our quarterly newsletter, should be released this week, so look for it in your email inboxes! This issue of the Student Slate will feature a report on the 2011 Washington Seminar, as well as several inspiring and informative articles written by blind students. Stay tuned! Next NABS Conference Call March 27: Each month, the NABS membership committee organizes a conference call discussion for blind students, prospective students, and parents and teachers of blind children. This month, on Sunday, March 27, we will be talking about the independence training programs at our three NFB training centers in Colorado, Louisiana, and Minnesota. Come to learn about these training programs, what you can gain from them and how to work with your state voc rehab agency to get there. Stay tuned for a separate announcement about this conference call. Can?t make it? Listen to the recording, as well as recordings of past conference calls, at www.nabslinkaudio.org . Last Chance to Apply for NFB National Scholarships: Each year, the National Federation of the Blind gives thirty scholarships to blind students, ranging in value from $3000 to $12000. The deadline to apply for this year?s scholarship competition is Thursday, March 31. To learn about the program and fill out an application, go to www.nfb.org/scholarships . Start Planning for NFB National Convention! This year, the NFB national convention will be in Orlando, Florida, from Sunday, July 3, through Friday, July 8. You can reserve a room at our hotel, the Rosen Shingle Creek Resort, by calling 866-996-6338. Depending on current availability, you may be able to extend your stay a few nights after the convention to explore the theme parks in Orlando, and still take advantage of our convention room rates: $63 for singles, doubles, and twins, and $67 for triples and quads, plus tax. Many NFB local chapters and state affiliates offer funding to help students attend national conventions. Contact your chapter or state president for details. You will see information about student/youth activities in upcoming NABS bulletins. Hope to see all of you in July! Division Announcements: >From Nebraska: The Nebraska Association of Blind Students (NABS) Presents The 2011 Student Seminar: Puzzle it Out- Collecting the Pieces of Success! What: It?s time for the Third Annual NABS student Seminar. We have gone beyond the horizons of our dreams and dived into the depths of our potential and now we are putting the puzzle pieces of our future together! This is an opportunity to learn the skills that can help you, your child or your student succeed, as well as network with fellow blind students, parents and teachers across Nebraska, and of course have fun!! When: The seminar begins at 6:00 PM on Friday, March 25, and ends Sunday, March 27 at 11:00 AM, so don?t worry about missing any class! Where: Doubletree Guest Suites 7270 Cedar St. Omaha, NE, 68124 Who: Blind Students of all ages, and the parents and teachers who want to see them succeed. Cost: The $20 registration fee will cover the cost of both your room and meals for the duration of the seminar. Scholarships are available for participants who are unable to cover the $20 registration. Preference will be given to those who request assistance first. Contact Karen Anderson (402-319-7645) if interested. >From North Carolina: The North Carolina Association of Blind Students is having its third annual student seminar on March 19th in Raleigh, NC. This event continues to grow. We launched a major recruitment initiative, where we called and emailed every one of the 128 institutions of higher education in our state, every services for the blind employee, and every teacher of the visually impaired in our state. Last year, we experimented with a small technology fair that consisted of impromptu exhibits run by our leaders and our state affiliate president. This year, we will have a full exhibit hall with 28 exhibits, including guide dog schools, adaptive recreation programs, adaptive technology, employment opportunities, blindness skill training centers, and more. Our exhibit hall will include agencies from many states, including California, New York, Minnesota, Florida, Kansas, Michigan, and others. We are also having all-day literature tables for those agencies that were not able to send representatives. We charged no fee for the exhibit hall and a creative new type of fee for the literature tables. We asked all agencies wanting to participate in the literature tables to provide us with at least one door prize to distribute on their behalf. This gives them easy advertising and us more door prizes. We will be having speakers in the morning to get attendees pumped up with the fact that blind people can do anything. Then, we?ll send them to the exhibit hall, followed by an hour for lunch (catered as a donation from Whole Foods Market). In the afternoon, we will have more speakers and 3 periods of breakout sessions. The last 45 minutes of our day will include speakers about different NFB events, such as the national convention, Washington Seminar, and the Blind Driver Challenge, to get attendees excited about the NFB. Finally, we will invite reflections from attendees and ask them to step up if they want to help plan a summer event. I will leave you with two pieces of advice from my experience in planning the seminar: 1. If you plan to have an exhibit hall, make sure that your seminar does not overlap with CSUN or any other major blindness event that will steal many of the smaller agencies? representatives. 2. Don?t be afraid to ask your state affiliate for help. There are so many people in our state affiliate who are helping us make this seminar great. The Federation supports its future. >From California: Announcing the 2011 California Chemistry Camp for Blind High School Students! Would you like to learn how blind people tackle the very visual subject of organic chemistry successfully? Do you have a general love for science? Do you want to learn how you can do chemistry as a blind person just as successfully as your sighted peers? Are you interested in how blind professionals use science in their careers every day? Then the 2011 California Chemistry Camp is for you! Come join the National Federation of the Blind of California, the California Association of Blind Students, the Lighthouse for the Blind of San Francisco, the University of California, Davis chemistry department, and up to twelve blind and low-vision high school students for an Educational, exciting, and Fun-Filled weekend of science! When: Friday, April 29 through Sunday, May 1, 2011. Where: Enchanted Hills Camp near Napa, California. Who: Up to twelve blind high school students ages 14-18 will be selected to participate. Cost: There is no cost to apply for the program. The National Federation of the Blind of California, the California association of Blind Students, and the Lighthouse for the Blind of San Francisco are underwriting the camp. Once accepted, however, donations from students or parents to the National Federation of the Blind of California would be most appreciated to off-set the expenses associated with the program. During this exciting and busy 3-day experience, students will get to learn how blind people use chemistry in their careers, will explore techniques used by blind people to make chemistry accessible, perform hands-on accessible chemistry experiments, apply the chemistry they learned to some basic cooking, see the chemistry they learned turned into action with an exhilarating magic show, and talk with blind scientists who use science in their professional careers. The students will also be able to participate in recreational activities possibly including swimming and the martial art of Judo. Note that students need not only love science to apply. This will be a learning experience for all blind people! To fill out the application, go to: www.sixdots.org and follow the link on the main page to the application form. We hope to see you at camp! If you have questions, please contact: Henry Wedler Program Coordinator hobywedler at gmail.com -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Meeting_minutes_02.27.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 17216 bytes Desc: not available URL: ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:28:41 -0400 From: Brianna Scerenscko To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I wish you the best of luck. On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Humberto, > Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse > than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, > it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and > concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! > All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may > not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you > longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT > 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. > Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. > Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick Molloy > > On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >> Hello, >> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >> >> Thanks, >> humberto >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >> 40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmai > l.com > ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 20:29:19 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Humberto, I took the SAT before college but its changed since then. So they may not have the analogies section they used to have. Other parts are about vocabulary and reading comprehension. Of course I did badly on the math part as that is my weakest subject. These are my tips. If you are a good multiple choice test taker, apply some of the principles you do for regular tests. ? Read directions and sample questions carefully. ? As with other multiple choice tests, eliminate obvious wrong answers; then pick the est one. ? If there is fill in the blank, read the sentence with the word choices you selected and see if it makes sense. ? Don?t ponder on a question too long since you do not have all day; come back to questions you don?t know if you have time. ? This tip may not work if you are taking the exam tomorrow, but if you retake it, practice/study ahead of time. Practice analogies. Know synomyms and antonyms for words. Stududy with a friend if you can find some test prep material. -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I wish you the best of luck. On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Humberto, > Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse > than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, > it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and > concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! > All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may > not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you > longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT > 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. > Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. > Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick Molloy > > On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >> Hello, >> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >> >> Thanks, >> humberto >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >> 40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmai > l.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 20:30:44 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing Message-ID: <67513DBA33D240EE9325CF88566F157D at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Briana, You took it four times! Wow! I did it twice. I also did the pre SAT for practice. What sections does it test and what format? I hear they added a essay section. If so, how did you write your essay? How long was it supposed to be? Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I wish you the best of luck. On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Humberto, > Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse > than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, > it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and > concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! > All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may > not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you > longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT > 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. > Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. > Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick Molloy > > On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >> Hello, >> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >> >> Thanks, >> humberto >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >> 40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmai > l.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:58:22 -0700 From: humberto To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Yes, I registered to have accommodations for the test. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Brianna Scerenscko To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:28:41 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing >I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I >wish you the best of luck. >On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Humberto, >> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse >> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, >> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and >> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! >> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may >> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you >> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT >> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. >> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. >> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick >> Molloy >> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >>> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >>> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >>> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >>> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >>> Thanks, >>> humberto >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol loy%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%4 0gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 22:05:09 -0500 From: Greg Aikens To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I wouldn't make that generalization about all people with multiple disabilities. I would submit that for some portion of the population, sheltered employment may offer a meaningful contribution to quality of life, such as the opportunity to express agency or self-determination by earning a wage. I don't think those opportunities would be available in a competitive employment environment. I would love to be wrong about this. Please share any alternative solutions you know of. -Greg On Mar 12, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Jedi wrote: > Ah, but then don't we assume that multi-disabled persons do better in > sheltered shops more than in "the real world?" Something to think > about. > > Respectfully Submitted > > Original message: >> For example, what if we pushed for rehab agencies to shut down >> sheltered workshops because many blind people were placed there >> wrongfully. What happens to the people with multiple disabilities, >> which may include blindness, whose lives may have been better from >> working at these workshops? > > > >> On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Brice Smith wrote: > >>> Kirt, > >>> While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, >>> reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. > >>> Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their >>> resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our >>> organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve >>> self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for >>> collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help >>> people with additional disabilities in this framework without >>> compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always >>> happen. > >>> Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with >>> our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak >>> directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we >>> do when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in >>> the future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the >>> cutting-edge? > >>> As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a >>> question that we need to consider as we move forward. > >>> Brice > >>> On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >>>> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with >>>> other disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, >>>> doubted and ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled >>>> friends, especially within our organizations, to feel that same >>>> judgment? In that regard, we seem to share an eary resemblence to >>>> the sighted public so many of us love complaining about. True other >>>> disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does blindness, and we >>>> overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. Why shun or >>>> belittle someone whose other disabilities make it impossible, or at >>>> least more difficult than practical, to use the same techniques we >>>> do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as a one size >>>> fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking about >>>> people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to blindness, >>>> may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone who >>>> thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not who >>>> we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >>>> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >>>> disabilities, not just blindness. Best, >>>> Kirt > >>>> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> Marsha: >>>>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. > >>>>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I >>>>> think we as the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very >>>>> similar issue. > >>>>> Jorge > > > >>>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: > >>>>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who >>>>>> are hearing impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary >>>>>> disability, but I am hard of >>>>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as much as >>>>>> say >>>>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these disabilities any >>>>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is that why >>>>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, or >>>>>> whatever >>>>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons in the >>>>>> NFB? >>>>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us who >>>>>> can't >>>>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of people, that >>>>>> has >>>>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this matter. >>>>>> But >>>>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind for >>>>>> their >>>>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who judge >>>>>> others >>>>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. > >>>>>> Just my two cents, >>>>>> Marsha > > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > >>>>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the >>>>>> perspective of this professional, more and more students who are >>>>>> blind often have multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical >>>>>> advancements have made it so that children who previously did not >>>>>> survive are now living longer lives, but often with more >>>>>> profound impairments. She notes that it is a "rare treat" for VI >>>>>> professionals to work with students who are simply visually >>>>>> impaired. Please understand that I do not have any hard data or >>>>>> research to back up any of these observations. > >>>>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there >>>>>> are many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action >>>>>> Network. However, I think most people can agree that our >>>>>> organization is concerned primarily with blindness and not other >>>>>> physical or mental disabilities. > >>>>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy >>>>>> organizations simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I >>>>>> think it is a testament to our strength that we gather thousands >>>>>> of blind people and raise a unified voice that might otherwise go >>>>>> unheard. But if the number of people with blindness as their only >>>>>> disability is shrinking, what does this mean for our future? > >>>>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the >>>>>> future of the organization with regards to membership recruitment >>>>>> and legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual >>>>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the >>>>>> future and years to come. > >>>>>> Any thoughts are welcome. > >>>>>> Brice > >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40 gmai >>>>>> l.com > > >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of >>>>>> virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>>>> http://www.eset.com > > > >>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of >>>>>> virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ > >>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > >>>>>> http://www.eset.com > > > >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com > > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 0gmail.com > > > >>> -- >>> Brice Smith >>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40g >>> mail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi >> %40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gma > il.com ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 19 ************************************** From dstrick1 at roadrunner.com Mon Mar 14 13:51:13 2011 From: dstrick1 at roadrunner.com (dstrick1 at roadrunner.com) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 13:51:13 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] SAT testing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110314135113.1JKRC.18885.root@cdptpa-web10-z01> Hello all, is it really dificult to combine all of our thoughts on a particular topic into one message? It gets annoying to see multiple messages from the same person on the same topic in a row. Thank you, Derrick ---- bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Humberto, I took the SAT before college but its changed since then. So they may not have the analogies section they used to have. Other parts are about vocabulary and reading comprehension. Of course I did badly on the math part as that is my weakest subject. These are my tips. If you are a good multiple choice test taker, apply some of the principles you do for regular tests.  Read directions and sample questions carefully.  As with other multiple choice tests, eliminate obvious wrong answers; then pick the est one.  If there is fill in the blank, read the sentence with the word choices you selected and see if it makes sense.  Don’t ponder on a question too long since you do not have all day; come back to questions you don’t know if you have time.  This tip may not work if you are taking the exam tomorrow, but if you retake it, practice/study ahead of time. Practice analogies. Know synomyms and antonyms for words. Stududy with a friend if you can find some test prep material. -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:28 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I wish you the best of luck. On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Humberto, > Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse > than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, > it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and > concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! > All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may > not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you > longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT > 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. > Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. > Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. > Patrick Molloy > > On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >> Hello, >> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very >> interesting in fact. But I have a question: >> Has anyone taken the SAT college entrance examination to enter >> into college or scholarships? If yes, tell me any experiences >> you've had with this test. If not, please wish me luck, because >> well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >> >> Thanks, >> humberto >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40roadrunner.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 16:09:33 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 10:09:33 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bridget, I was obviously being a little bit sarcastic, but I think it makes perfect sense. Culture isn't necessarily geographical. Lots of the times it isn't. From Jedi's definition, which makes sense to me, we're all part of all sorts of cultures. Maybe a better word for what I'm thinking of, to avoid confusion, is "communities". We're both part of the blind community. I'm part of the Mormon community (which isn't really as geographically centered as lots of people think it is), you're part of a community of writers, all of us on this list are part of a community of students...most of us, anyway. The list goes on and on and on ad noseum. See what I'm saying? Best, Kirt On 3/13/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Kirt, > > But in the context of what you guys are saying, it doesn't really make > sense. > > If merely sharing common interest or goals makes us a culture, then yes, > religions and sports and liking one sex over another are a culture. We > do not share all aspects of life with others that hold these interest > though. > > Certain religions like Mormonism may be argued to be its own culture, > but in general, take Christianity or contemporary western Judiasm, these > religions are practiced around the world so what does that mean for the > argument of culture? And for that matter, blind people are not unique > to North America, we live in all parts of the world and we are involved > in true aspects of culture-- customs and practices, languages, belief > systems, artifacts, etc. So blindness only seems to set us a part from > others in terms of sensory loss, but not as containing attributes > specific to the blind only. > > And (yes, I know it was a joke) but heterosexuals and homosexuals may > not share attraction to gender in common, but they do share the same > need for love and companionship. They experience all the same feelings, > just for different genders. > > This is how it is for the blind. I don't feel any different than I did > before blindness even though society may hold certain views I disagree > with. Some people are still racist, does this mean black people are not > a part of American culture because some people are ignorant? > > I don't do different things from sighted people I know, though I may use > different tools to do some things. I still experience life like my > family and friends, and often we share common interest. > > I do believe this discussion comes down to semantics, and, I say this > respectively, culture is not the proper word to be used. I believe > whole-heartedly in the core of the NFB, but I do not gain a > self-awareness or self identity from the organization or my blindness. > How can we say blindness is just a characteristic, but in the same > breath that we are a unique culture within already established culture > where we all live? I presume none of us live in Federation communities, > and no, training centers do not count because it is not permanent. > *smile* > > We may agree to disagree, and that is okay. Does this mean we are not a > part of the same culture? But we are Federationist! LOL I have yet to > hear a valid argument-- for me-- that convinces me the NFB is a unique > culture, and that blindness itself is a different identity. > > I will make this really controversial, this is why some argue (and even > those among race-based groups) that no such thing as a black culture > exist. Or for that matter, any racial group born in a particular > country. Most my black friends do not identify as African -American > because it implies that they were born in Africa, and they were not. I > would argue a race has more complicated threads to pull into a > discussion like this, but can we truly define ourselves based on a > single attribute? Color, gender, disability? > > A culture must include various elements, and I fail to see how > blindness, inspite of how you view the disability itself, constructs us > as people. We say we make decisions or experience the world > differently, but I have not witnessed this in my own life. I mean, if > some aspect of me considered different, or at times, inferior, suddenly > constitutes a culture, then as a woman, I belong to the culture of > women. It does sound silly to me. *smile* > > Bridgit > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:33:42 -0600 > From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17 > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Bridget, > You know...I'm starting to think Jedi might be right. Culture doesn't > mean lifestyle...it's more like community. So I'm part of the Mormon > culture and blind culture and (cause I'm a basketball junkie and writing > in a selection Sunday comercial break) a part of the basketball culture. > I'm part of the Interfaith dialogue culture and the Mountain Dew culture > (cause that drink's just amazing)...I'm part of the facebook enthusiasts > culture and the fantasy book reading culture. Heck...I like girls, I'm > part of the heterosexual culture. But man I think I'm oversimplifying > this...but that's how I see the blindness community- an interest that > matters a good deal more than mountain dew and basketball, but not > nearly as much as girls, my faith, or interfaith dialogue. So, if all > those things are cultures, I guess I'm part of the "nfb culture", too. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/13/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> Culture is based on a civilization containing its own religion, >> customs, beliefs, language and code of ethics. This does not define >> an organization like the NFB or ACB. Yes, we have a philosophy about >> blindness itself, but this "philosophy" is strictly about how one >> lives as a blind person in one's own established culture. >> >> In fact, there is information on the NFB's website regarding this very > >> topic, and the same point is made-- the NFB is not a culture or even >> sub-culture. >> >> Any values or beliefs we hold are only united by our blindness, but if > >> we were to look at each individual, we would find these concepts vary. > >> Organizations like the NFB contain people coming from all >> socio-economic backgrounds with differing views on religion and belief > >> systems. >> >> And in anthropological and historical terms, we certainly do not have >> a common language unique to us nor do we have customs specific to our >> group. >> >> Because we mostly agree on what blindness means-- a minor disability >> that allows us to achieve equal success-- this does not mean we create > >> a culture. We use a cane or dog to navigate, but this is our >> equivalence to using eyes; many of us use Braille, but it is merely a >> tactile of the language already used by society at large; we have >> views about how blind people should live and be treated, but these are > >> based on our concepts of disability, and they are based on general >> rules of how people in general should be treated. >> >> So I believe using the word culture is a misuse of the word. In fact, > >> saying that the NFB is its own culture places a distinction between us > >> and those who are not us which creates a divide. We live, work and >> play in this society so our culture is the one adopted by our >> civilization and the group (family and friends) we associate ourselves > >> with. >> >> By your argument, the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are their own culture > >> too, or The Daughters of the American Revolution or PETA. Because we >> have common interest and choose to organize to promote our common >> interest and goals, does not mean we have developed a culture. >> >> Bridgit >> >> Message: 18 >> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:06:53 -0500 >> From: Jedi >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> Message-ID: >> >> <20110313060653.29087.71137 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" >> >> Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether > >> or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless >> that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with >> ours. >> >> The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can >> identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the >> unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of >> the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the > >> foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated >> professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that >> could be considered a major cultural grouping. >> >> A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding >> human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, >> values, etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that >> does not mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures > >> concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true >> that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but >> strongly identify with some of their cultural markers over others for >> just about any reason under the sun. >> >> I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take >> some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the >> task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically >> speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to >> such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB >> without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does >> that make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, >> and these may or may not have anything to do with a specific >> disability, but may have more to do with how disability is defined. >> There are some disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly >> not identify with, others with which we would identify with some, and >> others with which we share much in common in terms of our core values >> related to the role of disability in our lives. >> >> Respectfully submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >>> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >>> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, > >>> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >>> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >>> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >>> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >>> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >>> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >>> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means >>> to each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. >>> Thoughts, anyone? Am I missing the mark? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >> %40gmail.com >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:20:14 -0600 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: Kentucky Students , Minnesota Students > , Colorado Students , > Kansas > Students , Illinois Students > , > Louisiana Students , Missouri > , Michigan , New > Hampshire > Students , blindkid > , massabs at nfbnet.org, New Jersey Students > , New Mexico Association of Blind > Students > , Nyabs , North Carolina > Students > , kansas-blind-students at nfbnet.org, Ohio > , List for NABS State Presidents > , Virginia Students > , > Nebraska , Arizona Students > , Professionals in Blindness > Education > Division List , Utah Students > , California Students > , > Florida Students , Tennessee Students > , National Association of Blind Students > mailing > list , gabs , > utahabs at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] NABS March Bulletin! > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Please find the bulletin below and the minutes from the February board > meeting attached. > > Arielle > > National Association of Blind Students > >From the Desk of the President > March 13, 2011 > > In this bulletin: > 1. Student Slate Coming Soon! > 2. Next NABS Conference Call March 27 > 3. Last Chance to Apply for NFB Scholarships! > 4. Start Planning for NFB National Convention! > 5. State Division Announcements > Student Slate Coming Soon: > The spring 2011 issue of the Student Slate, our quarterly > newsletter, should be released this week, so look for it in your email > inboxes! This issue of the Student Slate will feature a report on the > 2011 Washington Seminar, as well as several inspiring and informative > articles written by blind students. Stay tuned! > > Next NABS Conference Call March 27: > Each month, the NABS membership committee organizes a conference > call discussion for blind students, prospective students, and parents > and teachers of blind children. This month, on Sunday, March 27, we will > be talking about the independence training programs at our three NFB > training centers in Colorado, Louisiana, and Minnesota. Come to learn > about these training programs, what you can gain from them and how to > work with your state voc rehab agency to get there. Stay tuned for a > separate announcement about this conference call. Can?t make it? Listen > to the recording, as well as recordings of past conference calls, at > www.nabslinkaudio.org . > > Last Chance to Apply for NFB National Scholarships: > Each year, the National Federation of the Blind gives thirty > scholarships to blind students, ranging in value from $3000 to $12000. > The deadline to apply for this year?s scholarship competition is > Thursday, March 31. To learn about the program and fill out an > application, go to www.nfb.org/scholarships . > > Start Planning for NFB National Convention! > This year, the NFB national convention will be in Orlando, > Florida, from Sunday, July 3, through Friday, July 8. You can reserve a > room at our hotel, the Rosen Shingle Creek Resort, by calling > 866-996-6338. Depending on current availability, you may be able to > extend your stay a few nights after the convention to explore the theme > parks in Orlando, and still take advantage of our convention room rates: > $63 for singles, doubles, and twins, and $67 for triples and quads, plus > tax. > Many NFB local chapters and state affiliates offer funding to > help students attend national conventions. Contact your chapter or state > president for details. > You will see information about student/youth activities in > upcoming NABS bulletins. Hope to see all of you in July! > > Division Announcements: > >From Nebraska: > The Nebraska Association of Blind Students (NABS) Presents The 2011 > Student Seminar: Puzzle it Out- Collecting the Pieces of Success! > > What: It?s time for the Third Annual NABS student Seminar. We have > gone beyond the horizons of our dreams and dived into the depths of our > potential and now we are putting the puzzle pieces of our future > together! This is an opportunity to learn the skills that can help you, > your child or your student succeed, as well as network with fellow blind > students, parents and teachers across Nebraska, and of course have fun!! > When: The seminar begins at 6:00 PM on Friday, March 25, and ends > Sunday, March 27 at 11:00 AM, so don?t worry about missing any class! > Where: Doubletree Guest Suites > 7270 Cedar St. > Omaha, NE, 68124 > > Who: Blind Students of all ages, and the parents and teachers who want > to see them succeed. > > Cost: The $20 registration fee will cover the cost of both your room and > meals for the duration of the seminar. > > > > Scholarships are available for participants who are unable to cover the > $20 registration. Preference will be given to those who request > assistance first. Contact Karen Anderson (402-319-7645) if > interested. > >From North Carolina: > The North Carolina Association of Blind Students is having its third > annual student seminar on March 19th in Raleigh, NC. This event > continues to grow. We launched a major recruitment initiative, where we > called and emailed every one of the 128 institutions of higher education > in our state, every services for the blind employee, and every teacher > of the visually impaired in our state. > Last year, we experimented with a small technology fair that > consisted of impromptu exhibits run by our leaders and our state > affiliate president. This year, we will have a full exhibit hall with > 28 exhibits, including guide dog schools, adaptive recreation programs, > adaptive technology, employment opportunities, blindness skill training > centers, and more. Our exhibit hall will include agencies from many > states, including California, New York, Minnesota, Florida, Kansas, > Michigan, and others. We are also having all-day literature tables for > those agencies that were not able to send representatives. We charged > no fee for the exhibit hall and a creative new type of fee for the > literature tables. We asked all agencies wanting to participate in the > literature tables to provide us with at least one door prize to > distribute on their behalf. This gives them easy advertising and us > more door prizes. We will be having speakers in the morning to get > attendees pumped up with the fact that blind people can do anything. > Then, we?ll send them to the exhibit hall, followed by an hour for lunch > (catered as a donation from Whole Foods Market). In the afternoon, we > will have more speakers and 3 periods of breakout sessions. The last 45 > minutes of our day will include speakers about different NFB events, > such as the national convention, Washington Seminar, and the Blind > Driver Challenge, to get attendees excited about the NFB. Finally, we > will invite reflections from attendees and ask them to step up if they > want to help plan a summer event. I will leave you with two pieces of > advice from my experience in planning the seminar: > 1. If you plan to have an exhibit hall, make sure that your seminar > does not overlap with CSUN or any other major blindness event that will > steal many of the smaller agencies? representatives. > 2. Don?t be afraid to ask your state affiliate for help. There are > so > many people in our state affiliate who are helping us make this seminar > great. The Federation supports its future. > >From California: > Announcing the 2011 California Chemistry Camp for Blind High School > Students! > > Would you like to learn how blind people tackle the very > visual subject of organic chemistry successfully? Do you have a general > love for science? Do you want to learn how you can do chemistry as a > blind person just as successfully as your sighted peers? Are you > interested in how blind professionals use science in their careers every > day? Then the 2011 California Chemistry Camp is for you! > Come join the National Federation of the Blind of > California, the California Association of Blind Students, the Lighthouse > for the Blind of San Francisco, the University of California, Davis > chemistry department, and up to twelve blind and low-vision high school > students for an Educational, exciting, and Fun-Filled weekend of > science! > > When: Friday, April 29 through Sunday, May 1, 2011. > Where: Enchanted Hills Camp near Napa, California. > Who: Up to twelve blind high school students ages 14-18 will be selected > to participate. > Cost: There is no cost to apply for the program. The National > Federation of the Blind of California, the California association of > Blind Students, and the Lighthouse for the Blind of San Francisco are > underwriting the camp. Once accepted, however, donations from students > or parents to the National Federation of the Blind of California would > be most appreciated to off-set the expenses associated with the program. > > During this exciting and busy 3-day experience, students > will get to learn how blind people use chemistry in their careers, will > explore techniques used by blind people to make chemistry accessible, > perform hands-on accessible chemistry experiments, apply the chemistry > they learned to some basic cooking, see the chemistry they learned > turned into action with an exhilarating magic show, and talk with blind > scientists who use science in their professional careers. The students > will also be able to participate in recreational activities possibly > including swimming and the martial art of Judo. Note that students need > not only love science to apply. This will be a learning experience for > all blind people! > > To fill out the application, go to: > www.sixdots.org > and follow the link on the main page to the application form. > > We hope to see you at camp! If you have questions, please contact: Henry > Wedler Program Coordinator hobywedler at gmail.com > > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Meeting_minutes_02.27.docx > Type: > application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document > Size: 17216 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > 9fa1a586/attachment-0001.bin> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:28:41 -0400 > From: Brianna Scerenscko > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I > wish you the best of luck. > > On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Humberto, >> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse >> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, >> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and >> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! >> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may >> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you >> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT >> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. >> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. >> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick Molloy >> >> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >>> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >>> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >>> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >>> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> humberto >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmai >> l.com >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 20:29:19 -0400 > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; > reply-type=original > > Humberto, > I took the SAT before college but its changed since then. So they may > not > have the analogies section they used to have. Other parts are about > vocabulary and reading comprehension. Of course I did badly on the math > part > as that is my weakest subject. > These are my tips. If you are a good multiple choice test taker, apply > some > of the principles you do for regular tests. > > ? Read directions and sample questions carefully. > ? As with other multiple choice tests, eliminate obvious wrong > answers; > then pick the est one. > ? If there is fill in the blank, read the sentence with the word > choices > you selected and see if it makes sense. > ? Don?t ponder on a question too long since you do not have all day; > come > back to questions you don?t know if you have time. > ? This tip may not work if you are taking the exam tomorrow, but if > you > retake it, practice/study ahead of time. Practice analogies. Know > synomyms > and antonyms for words. Stududy with a friend if you can find some test > prep > material. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brianna Scerenscko > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > > I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I > wish you the best of luck. > > On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Humberto, >> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse >> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, >> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and >> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! >> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may >> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you >> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT >> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. >> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. >> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick Molloy >> >> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >>> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >>> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >>> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >>> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> humberto >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmai >> l.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea > rthlink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 20:30:44 -0400 > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > Message-ID: <67513DBA33D240EE9325CF88566F157D at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Briana, > You took it four times! Wow! I did it twice. I also did the pre SAT for > > practice. > What sections does it test and what format? I hear they added a essay > section. If so, how did you write your essay? > How long was it supposed to be? > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brianna Scerenscko > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > > I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I > wish you the best of luck. > > On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Humberto, >> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse >> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, >> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and >> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! >> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may >> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you >> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT >> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. >> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. >> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick Molloy >> >> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >>> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >>> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >>> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >>> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> humberto >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmai >> l.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea > rthlink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:58:22 -0700 > From: humberto > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed > > Yes, I registered to have accommodations for the test. > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: Brianna Scerenscko >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Date sent: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:28:41 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > >>I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for > accomodations. I >>wish you the best of luck. > >>On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> Humberto, >>> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be > worse >>> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the > whole, >>> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean > and >>> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math > textbook! >>> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it > may >>> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes > you >>> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and > the SAT >>> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another > story. >>> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your > best. >>> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick >>> Molloy > >>> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >>>> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >>>> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >>>> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >>>> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! > >>>> Thanks, >>>> humberto > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol > loy%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%4 > 0gmail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 22:05:09 -0500 > From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I wouldn't make that generalization about all people with multiple > disabilities. I would submit that for some portion of the population, > sheltered employment may offer a meaningful contribution to quality of > life, such as the opportunity to express agency or self-determination by > earning a wage. I don't think those opportunities would be available in > a competitive employment environment. I would love to be wrong about > this. Please share any alternative solutions you know of. > > -Greg > > On Mar 12, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Jedi wrote: > >> Ah, but then don't we assume that multi-disabled persons do better in >> sheltered shops more than in "the real world?" Something to think >> about. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> For example, what if we pushed for rehab agencies to shut down >>> sheltered workshops because many blind people were placed there >>> wrongfully. What happens to the people with multiple disabilities, >>> which may include blindness, whose lives may have been better from >>> working at these workshops? >> >> >> >>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Brice Smith wrote: >> >>>> Kirt, >> >>>> While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, >>>> reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. >> >>>> Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their >>>> resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our >>>> organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve >>>> self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for >>>> collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help >>>> people with additional disabilities in this framework without >>>> compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always >>>> happen. >> >>>> Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with > >>>> our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak > >>>> directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we >>>> do when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in >>>> the future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the >>>> cutting-edge? >> >>>> As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a >>>> question that we need to consider as we move forward. >> >>>> Brice >> >>>> On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >>>>> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with >>>>> other disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, >>>>> doubted and ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled >>>>> friends, especially within our organizations, to feel that same >>>>> judgment? In that regard, we seem to share an eary resemblence to >>>>> the sighted public so many of us love complaining about. True other > >>>>> disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does blindness, and we >>>>> overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. Why shun or >>>>> belittle someone whose other disabilities make it impossible, or at > >>>>> least more difficult than practical, to use the same techniques we >>>>> do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as a one size >>>>> fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking about >>>>> people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to blindness, >>>>> may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone who >>>>> thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not who > >>>>> we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >>>>> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >>>>> disabilities, not just blindness. Best, >>>>> Kirt >> >>>>> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> Marsha: >>>>>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> >>>>>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I >>>>>> think we as the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very >>>>>> similar issue. >> >>>>>> Jorge >> >> >> >>>>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> >>>>>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who >>>>>>> are hearing impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary >>>>>>> disability, but I am hard of >>>>>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as > much as >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these > disabilities any >>>>>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is > that why >>>>>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, > or >>>>>>> whatever >>>>>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons > in the >>>>>>> NFB? >>>>>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us > who >>>>>>> can't >>>>>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of > people, that >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this > matter. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind > for >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who > judge >>>>>>> others >>>>>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >> >>>>>>> Just my two cents, >>>>>>> Marsha >> >> >> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> >>>>>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>>>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the >>>>>>> perspective of this professional, more and more students who are >>>>>>> blind often have multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical > >>>>>>> advancements have made it so that children who previously did not > >>>>>>> survive are now living longer lives, but often with more >>>>>>> profound impairments. She notes that it is a "rare treat" for VI >>>>>>> professionals to work with students who are simply visually >>>>>>> impaired. Please understand that I do not have any hard data or >>>>>>> research to back up any of these observations. >> >>>>>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there >>>>>>> are many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action >>>>>>> Network. However, I think most people can agree that our >>>>>>> organization is concerned primarily with blindness and not other >>>>>>> physical or mental disabilities. >> >>>>>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy >>>>>>> organizations simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I >>>>>>> think it is a testament to our strength that we gather thousands >>>>>>> of blind people and raise a unified voice that might otherwise go > >>>>>>> unheard. But if the number of people with blindness as their only > >>>>>>> disability is shrinking, what does this mean for our future? >> >>>>>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the >>>>>>> future of the organization with regards to membership recruitment > >>>>>>> and legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual > >>>>>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>>>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the >>>>>>> future and years to come. >> >>>>>>> Any thoughts are welcome. >> >>>>>>> Brice >> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > >>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40 > gmai >>>>>>> l.com >> >> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of >>>>>>> virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of >>>>>>> virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac > .com >> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 > 0gmail.com >> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 > 0gmail.com >> >> >> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40g >>>> mail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi >>> %40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gma >> il.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 19 > ************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From neal at duxsys.com Mon Mar 14 18:11:13 2011 From: neal at duxsys.com (Neal) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 13:11:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] [duxnews] Window Eyes & DBT & PerkyDuck announcement Message-ID: Mar-11-2011 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE GW Micro and Duxbury Systems Announce New Collaboration: Unparalleled Access to DBT and Perky Duck with Window-Eyes GW Micro and Duxbury Systems are proud to announce a collaboration that provides unparalleled access to Duxbury Braille Translator (DBT) and Perky Duck using Window-Eyes. In response to requests from Braille proofreaders to have better access to DBT with speech, GW Micro and Duxbury Systems worked together to create the best possible screen reader access to both DBT and Perky Duck with Window-Eyes. "When translating documents with just speech, I was never able to tell exactly what characters were in the translated document. With the new Window-Eyes App for DBT, I can hear everything I need all of the time," said Raul Gallegos, Technical Support Specialist for GW Micro. Gallegos is responsible for translating and proofreading all of GW Micro's Braille documents. "This new Window-Eyes App provides superior speech access to our product line," said Neal Kuniansky, Director of Sales and Marketing for Duxbury Systems. "We are very happy to work with GW Micro so that Window-Eyes can enhance our products for Braille translation for visually impaired consumers." In the latest edition, DBT will detect if you are running Window-Eyes. If it determines you are running Window-Eyes, DBT will prompt you to download the latest Window-Eyes App. The App will speak translated Braille codes when in a translated document as well as read styles such as headings and tables. Window-Eyes 7.5 will ship with the App installed, allowing all DBT and Perky Duck users to take advantage of all of the new accessibility enhancements right out-of-the-box. Window-Eyes customers can download and install the App for free from GW Micro's App Central, located at http://www.gwmicro.com/ac. "We are committed to innovating new technologies for the blind and visually impaired," said Doug Geoffray, Vice President of Development and Product Support for GW Micro. "This collaboration with Duxbury Systems is yet another step forward making Window-Eyes the best screen reader choice for visually impaired people." GW Micro has been a trusted pioneer in the adaptive technology industry since 1990, and continues to lead with innovative, customer driven solutions. Duxbury Systems leads the world in software for Braille. The Duxbury Braille Translator (DBT) and MegaDots, are used by virtually all of the world's leading braille publishers. Contact: Dan Weirich, Vice President of Sales and Marketing dan at gwmicro.com (260) 489-3671 Neal Kuniansky, Director of Sales and Marketing neal at duxsys.com Sincerely, Neal Kuniansky Email: Neal at duxsys.com TEL:+1 978-692-3000 FAX: +1 978-692-7912 URL: http://www.DuxburySystems.com Duxbury Systems, Inc. The name for Braille since 1975. 270 Littleton Road, #6 Westford MA, 01886 USA From dandrews at visi.com Mon Mar 14 18:14:46 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 13:14:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: A Special ABiSee Offer for Kurzweil 1000 Users Message-ID: >Subject: A Special ABiSee Offer for Kurzweil 1000 Users >Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 11:32:53 -0400 >From: "Debby Frohbieter" > >In January, Cambium Learning Technologies >announced compatibility between Kurzweil 1000 >and ABiSee Eye-Pal and Zoom-Ex. ABiSee Eye-Pal >and Zoom-Ex provide an alternative method for >blind and low-vision people to acquire print >content to use with Kurzweil 1000. >Today we are pleased to tell you about ABiSee's >special offer for Kurzweil 1000 users. If you >purchase Eye-Pal or Zoom-Ex, you will receive an >instant rebate of $380! With this special >pricing, you can buy Eye-Pal for $895, which >retails for $1,275 and Zoom-Ex for $1,395, which regularly costs $1,775. >The details are straightforward. You must own >Kurzweil 1000 Version 12.03 in order to be >compatible with Eye-Pal and Zoom-Ex. Proof of >ownership, which consists of your name and your >Kurzweil 1000 serial number, is required. >You can order Eye-Pal or Zoom-Ex directly from >ABiSee by calling 978-635-0202 or contact an ABiSee dealer. >AbiSee’s web site is at http://www.abisee.com. > >Regards, >Debby Frohbieter > >----------------------------------------- >Debby Frohbieter >Marketing Assistant >Cambium Learning Technologies >Kurzweil Educational Systems IntelliTools >Cochituate Place, 24 Prime Parkway, 3rd Floor, Natick, MA 01760 >Office: 781-276-0671 // Fax: 781-276-0649 >Email: debby.frohbieter at cambiumtech.com >Web: www.cambiumtech.com > >Cambium Learning is the leading educational company >focused exclusively on at-risk and special student populations. > >Join us on >Facebookš >Watch us on >YouTubeš Follow us on Twitter > > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Mon Mar 14 18:15:18 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 13:15:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Culture dialogue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Kirt, I was including some sarcastic discussion too, but it also is making a point, as you did as well. I agree that community is a much better word to use here. No, culture is not specific to a geographic location-- though it can be, but what we are dialoguing here is different than culture even with deviations from a technical definition. For me, I can accept community-- though I still feel it brings conotations implying a separation-- but it defines an organization like the NFB better than culture. Signing off on this topic, I enjoy the lively discussion, and I am glad we all bring an individual interpretation. Bridgit Message: 4 Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 10:09:33 -0600 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 19 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Bridget, I was obviously being a little bit sarcastic, but I think it makes perfect sense. Culture isn't necessarily geographical. Lots of the times it isn't. From Jedi's definition, which makes sense to me, we're all part of all sorts of cultures. Maybe a better word for what I'm thinking of, to avoid confusion, is "communities". We're both part of the blind community. I'm part of the Mormon community (which isn't really as geographically centered as lots of people think it is), you're part of a community of writers, all of us on this list are part of a community of students...most of us, anyway. The list goes on and on and on ad noseum. See what I'm saying? Best, Kirt On 3/13/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Kirt, > > But in the context of what you guys are saying, it doesn't really make > sense. > > If merely sharing common interest or goals makes us a culture, then yes, > religions and sports and liking one sex over another are a culture. We > do not share all aspects of life with others that hold these interest > though. > > Certain religions like Mormonism may be argued to be its own culture, > but in general, take Christianity or contemporary western Judiasm, these > religions are practiced around the world so what does that mean for the > argument of culture? And for that matter, blind people are not unique > to North America, we live in all parts of the world and we are involved > in true aspects of culture-- customs and practices, languages, belief > systems, artifacts, etc. So blindness only seems to set us a part from > others in terms of sensory loss, but not as containing attributes > specific to the blind only. > > And (yes, I know it was a joke) but heterosexuals and homosexuals may > not share attraction to gender in common, but they do share the same > need for love and companionship. They experience all the same feelings, > just for different genders. > > This is how it is for the blind. I don't feel any different than I did > before blindness even though society may hold certain views I disagree > with. Some people are still racist, does this mean black people are not > a part of American culture because some people are ignorant? > > I don't do different things from sighted people I know, though I may use > different tools to do some things. I still experience life like my > family and friends, and often we share common interest. > > I do believe this discussion comes down to semantics, and, I say this > respectively, culture is not the proper word to be used. I believe > whole-heartedly in the core of the NFB, but I do not gain a > self-awareness or self identity from the organization or my blindness. > How can we say blindness is just a characteristic, but in the same > breath that we are a unique culture within already established culture > where we all live? I presume none of us live in Federation communities, > and no, training centers do not count because it is not permanent. > *smile* > > We may agree to disagree, and that is okay. Does this mean we are not a > part of the same culture? But we are Federationist! LOL I have yet to > hear a valid argument-- for me-- that convinces me the NFB is a unique > culture, and that blindness itself is a different identity. > > I will make this really controversial, this is why some argue (and even > those among race-based groups) that no such thing as a black culture > exist. Or for that matter, any racial group born in a particular > country. Most my black friends do not identify as African -American > because it implies that they were born in Africa, and they were not. I > would argue a race has more complicated threads to pull into a > discussion like this, but can we truly define ourselves based on a > single attribute? Color, gender, disability? > > A culture must include various elements, and I fail to see how > blindness, inspite of how you view the disability itself, constructs us > as people. We say we make decisions or experience the world > differently, but I have not witnessed this in my own life. I mean, if > some aspect of me considered different, or at times, inferior, suddenly > constitutes a culture, then as a woman, I belong to the culture of > women. It does sound silly to me. *smile* > > Bridgit > > Message: 7 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 16:33:42 -0600 > From: Kirt Manwaring > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 17 > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Bridget, > You know...I'm starting to think Jedi might be right. Culture doesn't > mean lifestyle...it's more like community. So I'm part of the Mormon > culture and blind culture and (cause I'm a basketball junkie and writing > in a selection Sunday comercial break) a part of the basketball culture. > I'm part of the Interfaith dialogue culture and the Mountain Dew culture > (cause that drink's just amazing)...I'm part of the facebook enthusiasts > culture and the fantasy book reading culture. Heck...I like girls, I'm > part of the heterosexual culture. But man I think I'm oversimplifying > this...but that's how I see the blindness community- an interest that > matters a good deal more than mountain dew and basketball, but not > nearly as much as girls, my faith, or interfaith dialogue. So, if all > those things are cultures, I guess I'm part of the "nfb culture", too. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/13/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: >> Culture is based on a civilization containing its own religion, >> customs, beliefs, language and code of ethics. This does not define >> an organization like the NFB or ACB. Yes, we have a philosophy about >> blindness itself, but this "philosophy" is strictly about how one >> lives as a blind person in one's own established culture. >> >> In fact, there is information on the NFB's website regarding this very > >> topic, and the same point is made-- the NFB is not a culture or even >> sub-culture. >> >> Any values or beliefs we hold are only united by our blindness, but if > >> we were to look at each individual, we would find these concepts vary. > >> Organizations like the NFB contain people coming from all >> socio-economic backgrounds with differing views on religion and belief > >> systems. >> >> And in anthropological and historical terms, we certainly do not have >> a common language unique to us nor do we have customs specific to our >> group. >> >> Because we mostly agree on what blindness means-- a minor disability >> that allows us to achieve equal success-- this does not mean we create > >> a culture. We use a cane or dog to navigate, but this is our >> equivalence to using eyes; many of us use Braille, but it is merely a >> tactile of the language already used by society at large; we have >> views about how blind people should live and be treated, but these are > >> based on our concepts of disability, and they are based on general >> rules of how people in general should be treated. >> >> So I believe using the word culture is a misuse of the word. In fact, > >> saying that the NFB is its own culture places a distinction between us > >> and those who are not us which creates a divide. We live, work and >> play in this society so our culture is the one adopted by our >> civilization and the group (family and friends) we associate ourselves > >> with. >> >> By your argument, the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are their own culture > >> too, or The Daughters of the American Revolution or PETA. Because we >> have common interest and choose to organize to promote our common >> interest and goals, does not mean we have developed a culture. >> >> Bridgit >> >> Message: 18 >> Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 01:06:53 -0500 >> From: Jedi >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> Message-ID: >> >> <20110313060653.29087.71137 at domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed" >> >> Yes, you are missing the mark. A culture has little to do with whether > >> or not you believe you can achieve within the greater society, unless >> that is one of the questions that founds your culture as it is with >> ours. >> >> The blind community actually has at least four cultures that I can >> identify: the NFB, the ACB, the unaffiliated consumer base, and the >> unaffiliated professional base. Professionals affiliated with one of >> the organizations are likely to build their professional values on the > >> foundation of their affiliation's values. The unaffiliated >> professionals (and consumers) will have their own cultures, but that >> could be considered a major cultural grouping. >> >> A culture is a group of individuals sharing similar beliefs regarding >> human nature, relationships between time and space, traditions, >> values, etc. Just because one individual belongs to one culture, that >> does not mean that the same individual cannot belong to other cultures > >> concurrently; this principle is called intersectionality. It is true >> that an individual can belong to multiple cultural groups, but >> strongly identify with some of their cultural markers over others for >> just about any reason under the sun. >> >> I would be happy to argue the NFB as a culture, but that would take >> some time and a lot of analysis. And frankly, I'm just not up to the >> task at the moment. The bottom line is that, anthropologically >> speaking, the NFB is a culture and that you can certainly belong to >> such a culture and maintain your cultural identity outside of the NFB >> without compromising any and all of your cultural identities. Does >> that make sense? The disability community also has multiple cultures, >> and these may or may not have anything to do with a specific >> disability, but may have more to do with how disability is defined. >> There are some disability cultures that the NFB would most certainly >> not identify with, others with which we would identify with some, and >> others with which we share much in common in terms of our core values >> related to the role of disability in our lives. >> >> Respectfully submitted >> >> Original message: >>> Jedi, >>> I'm still not sold on the idea of a "disability >>> culture."...although, I think in the context of working with other >>> disability groups with a similar mindset to us, it makes sense. But, > >>> for me, the point of the NFB is empowering us to be part of whatever >>> culture we feel like with blindness being as minimal a factor as >>> possible. I recognize that others have different interpretations of >>> how to apply NFB philosophy, but that's what it means to >>> me...blindness will not keep me from any of my goals in the world, >>> even though it places some limits in the way I have to overcome. If >>> part of assessing our future is examining what NFB philosophy means >>> to each of us, that's probably a good place for me to start. >>> Thoughts, anyone? Am I missing the mark? >>> Best, >>> Kirt >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude >> %40gmail.com >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 17:20:14 -0600 > From: Arielle Silverman > To: Kentucky Students , Minnesota Students > , Colorado Students , > Kansas > Students , Illinois Students > , > Louisiana Students , Missouri > , Michigan , New > Hampshire > Students , blindkid > , massabs at nfbnet.org, New Jersey Students > , New Mexico Association of Blind > Students > , Nyabs , North Carolina > Students > , kansas-blind-students at nfbnet.org, Ohio > , List for NABS State Presidents > , Virginia Students > , > Nebraska , Arizona Students > , Professionals in Blindness > Education > Division List , Utah Students > , California Students > , > Florida Students , Tennessee Students > , National Association of Blind Students > mailing > list , gabs , > utahabs at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] NABS March Bulletin! > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" > > Please find the bulletin below and the minutes from the February board > meeting attached. > > Arielle > > National Association of Blind Students > >From the Desk of the President > March 13, 2011 > > In this bulletin: > 1. Student Slate Coming Soon! > 2. Next NABS Conference Call March 27 > 3. Last Chance to Apply for NFB Scholarships! > 4. Start Planning for NFB National Convention! > 5. State Division Announcements > Student Slate Coming Soon: > The spring 2011 issue of the Student Slate, our quarterly > newsletter, should be released this week, so look for it in your email > inboxes! This issue of the Student Slate will feature a report on the > 2011 Washington Seminar, as well as several inspiring and informative > articles written by blind students. Stay tuned! > > Next NABS Conference Call March 27: > Each month, the NABS membership committee organizes a conference > call discussion for blind students, prospective students, and parents > and teachers of blind children. This month, on Sunday, March 27, we will > be talking about the independence training programs at our three NFB > training centers in Colorado, Louisiana, and Minnesota. Come to learn > about these training programs, what you can gain from them and how to > work with your state voc rehab agency to get there. Stay tuned for a > separate announcement about this conference call. Can?t make it? Listen > to the recording, as well as recordings of past conference calls, at > www.nabslinkaudio.org . > > Last Chance to Apply for NFB National Scholarships: > Each year, the National Federation of the Blind gives thirty > scholarships to blind students, ranging in value from $3000 to $12000. > The deadline to apply for this year?s scholarship competition is > Thursday, March 31. To learn about the program and fill out an > application, go to www.nfb.org/scholarships . > > Start Planning for NFB National Convention! > This year, the NFB national convention will be in Orlando, > Florida, from Sunday, July 3, through Friday, July 8. You can reserve a > room at our hotel, the Rosen Shingle Creek Resort, by calling > 866-996-6338. Depending on current availability, you may be able to > extend your stay a few nights after the convention to explore the theme > parks in Orlando, and still take advantage of our convention room rates: > $63 for singles, doubles, and twins, and $67 for triples and quads, plus > tax. > Many NFB local chapters and state affiliates offer funding to > help students attend national conventions. Contact your chapter or state > president for details. > You will see information about student/youth activities in > upcoming NABS bulletins. Hope to see all of you in July! > > Division Announcements: > >From Nebraska: > The Nebraska Association of Blind Students (NABS) Presents The 2011 > Student Seminar: Puzzle it Out- Collecting the Pieces of Success! > > What: It?s time for the Third Annual NABS student Seminar. We have > gone beyond the horizons of our dreams and dived into the depths of our > potential and now we are putting the puzzle pieces of our future > together! This is an opportunity to learn the skills that can help you, > your child or your student succeed, as well as network with fellow blind > students, parents and teachers across Nebraska, and of course have fun!! > When: The seminar begins at 6:00 PM on Friday, March 25, and ends > Sunday, March 27 at 11:00 AM, so don?t worry about missing any class! > Where: Doubletree Guest Suites > 7270 Cedar St. > Omaha, NE, 68124 > > Who: Blind Students of all ages, and the parents and teachers who want > to see them succeed. > > Cost: The $20 registration fee will cover the cost of both your room and > meals for the duration of the seminar. > > > > Scholarships are available for participants who are unable to cover the > $20 registration. Preference will be given to those who request > assistance first. Contact Karen Anderson (402-319-7645) if > interested. > >From North Carolina: > The North Carolina Association of Blind Students is having its third > annual student seminar on March 19th in Raleigh, NC. This event > continues to grow. We launched a major recruitment initiative, where we > called and emailed every one of the 128 institutions of higher education > in our state, every services for the blind employee, and every teacher > of the visually impaired in our state. > Last year, we experimented with a small technology fair that > consisted of impromptu exhibits run by our leaders and our state > affiliate president. This year, we will have a full exhibit hall with > 28 exhibits, including guide dog schools, adaptive recreation programs, > adaptive technology, employment opportunities, blindness skill training > centers, and more. Our exhibit hall will include agencies from many > states, including California, New York, Minnesota, Florida, Kansas, > Michigan, and others. We are also having all-day literature tables for > those agencies that were not able to send representatives. We charged > no fee for the exhibit hall and a creative new type of fee for the > literature tables. We asked all agencies wanting to participate in the > literature tables to provide us with at least one door prize to > distribute on their behalf. This gives them easy advertising and us > more door prizes. We will be having speakers in the morning to get > attendees pumped up with the fact that blind people can do anything. > Then, we?ll send them to the exhibit hall, followed by an hour for lunch > (catered as a donation from Whole Foods Market). In the afternoon, we > will have more speakers and 3 periods of breakout sessions. The last 45 > minutes of our day will include speakers about different NFB events, > such as the national convention, Washington Seminar, and the Blind > Driver Challenge, to get attendees excited about the NFB. Finally, we > will invite reflections from attendees and ask them to step up if they > want to help plan a summer event. I will leave you with two pieces of > advice from my experience in planning the seminar: > 1. If you plan to have an exhibit hall, make sure that your seminar > does not overlap with CSUN or any other major blindness event that will > steal many of the smaller agencies? representatives. > 2. Don?t be afraid to ask your state affiliate for help. There are > so > many people in our state affiliate who are helping us make this seminar > great. The Federation supports its future. > >From California: > Announcing the 2011 California Chemistry Camp for Blind High School > Students! > > Would you like to learn how blind people tackle the very > visual subject of organic chemistry successfully? Do you have a general > love for science? Do you want to learn how you can do chemistry as a > blind person just as successfully as your sighted peers? Are you > interested in how blind professionals use science in their careers every > day? Then the 2011 California Chemistry Camp is for you! > Come join the National Federation of the Blind of > California, the California Association of Blind Students, the Lighthouse > for the Blind of San Francisco, the University of California, Davis > chemistry department, and up to twelve blind and low-vision high school > students for an Educational, exciting, and Fun-Filled weekend of > science! > > When: Friday, April 29 through Sunday, May 1, 2011. > Where: Enchanted Hills Camp near Napa, California. > Who: Up to twelve blind high school students ages 14-18 will be selected > to participate. > Cost: There is no cost to apply for the program. The National > Federation of the Blind of California, the California association of > Blind Students, and the Lighthouse for the Blind of San Francisco are > underwriting the camp. Once accepted, however, donations from students > or parents to the National Federation of the Blind of California would > be most appreciated to off-set the expenses associated with the program. > > During this exciting and busy 3-day experience, students > will get to learn how blind people use chemistry in their careers, will > explore techniques used by blind people to make chemistry accessible, > perform hands-on accessible chemistry experiments, apply the chemistry > they learned to some basic cooking, see the chemistry they learned > turned into action with an exhilarating magic show, and talk with blind > scientists who use science in their professional careers. The students > will also be able to participate in recreational activities possibly > including swimming and the martial art of Judo. Note that students need > not only love science to apply. This will be a learning experience for > all blind people! > > To fill out the application, go to: > www.sixdots.org > and follow the link on the main page to the application form. > > We hope to see you at camp! If you have questions, please contact: Henry > Wedler Program Coordinator hobywedler at gmail.com > > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > -------------- next part -------------- > A non-text attachment was scrubbed... > Name: Meeting_minutes_02.27.docx > Type: > application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document > Size: 17216 bytes > Desc: not available > URL: > 9fa1a586/attachment-0001.bin> > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:28:41 -0400 > From: Brianna Scerenscko > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I > wish you the best of luck. > > On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Humberto, >> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse >> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, >> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and >> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! >> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may >> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you >> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT >> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. >> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. >> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick Molloy >> >> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >>> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >>> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >>> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >>> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> humberto >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmai >> l.com >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 20:29:19 -0400 > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; > reply-type=original > > Humberto, > I took the SAT before college but its changed since then. So they may > not > have the analogies section they used to have. Other parts are about > vocabulary and reading comprehension. Of course I did badly on the math > part > as that is my weakest subject. > These are my tips. If you are a good multiple choice test taker, apply > some > of the principles you do for regular tests. > > ? Read directions and sample questions carefully. > ? As with other multiple choice tests, eliminate obvious wrong > answers; > then pick the est one. > ? If there is fill in the blank, read the sentence with the word > choices > you selected and see if it makes sense. > ? Don?t ponder on a question too long since you do not have all day; > come > back to questions you don?t know if you have time. > ? This tip may not work if you are taking the exam tomorrow, but if > you > retake it, practice/study ahead of time. Practice analogies. Know > synomyms > and antonyms for words. Stududy with a friend if you can find some test > prep > material. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brianna Scerenscko > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > > I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I > wish you the best of luck. > > On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Humberto, >> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse >> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, >> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and >> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! >> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may >> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you >> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT >> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. >> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. >> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick Molloy >> >> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >>> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >>> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >>> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >>> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> humberto >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmai >> l.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea > rthlink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 20:30:44 -0400 > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > Message-ID: <67513DBA33D240EE9325CF88566F157D at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Briana, > You took it four times! Wow! I did it twice. I also did the pre SAT for > > practice. > What sections does it test and what format? I hear they added a essay > section. If so, how did you write your essay? > How long was it supposed to be? > Ashley > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brianna Scerenscko > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > > I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I > wish you the best of luck. > > On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Humberto, >> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse >> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, >> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and >> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! >> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may >> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you >> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT >> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. >> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. >> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick Molloy >> >> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >>> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >>> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >>> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >>> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> humberto >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy% >>> 40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmai >> l.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea > rthlink.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 18:58:22 -0700 > From: humberto > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed > > Yes, I registered to have accommodations for the test. > >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: Brianna Scerenscko >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >Date sent: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 19:28:41 -0400 >>Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > >>I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for > accomodations. I >>wish you the best of luck. > >>On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> Humberto, >>> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be > worse >>> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the > whole, >>> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean > and >>> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math > textbook! >>> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it > may >>> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes > you >>> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and > the SAT >>> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another > story. >>> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your > best. >>> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. Patrick >>> Molloy > >>> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very interesting >>>> in fact. But I have a question: Has anyone taken the SAT college >>>> entrance examination to enter into college or scholarships? If yes, >>>> tell me any experiences you've had with this test. If not, please >>>> wish me luck, because well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! > >>>> Thanks, >>>> humberto > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol > loy%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%4 > 0gmail.com > > >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2011 22:05:09 -0500 > From: Greg Aikens > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I wouldn't make that generalization about all people with multiple > disabilities. I would submit that for some portion of the population, > sheltered employment may offer a meaningful contribution to quality of > life, such as the opportunity to express agency or self-determination by > earning a wage. I don't think those opportunities would be available in > a competitive employment environment. I would love to be wrong about > this. Please share any alternative solutions you know of. > > -Greg > > On Mar 12, 2011, at 10:24 PM, Jedi wrote: > >> Ah, but then don't we assume that multi-disabled persons do better in >> sheltered shops more than in "the real world?" Something to think >> about. >> >> Respectfully Submitted >> >> Original message: >>> For example, what if we pushed for rehab agencies to shut down >>> sheltered workshops because many blind people were placed there >>> wrongfully. What happens to the people with multiple disabilities, >>> which may include blindness, whose lives may have been better from >>> working at these workshops? >> >> >> >>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 8:00 PM, Brice Smith wrote: >> >>>> Kirt, >> >>>> While I think everyone can agree with your message in principle, >>>> reality and common sense tell us it's not always so easy. >> >>>> Advocacy and nonprofit organizations must, above all, align their >>>> resources and programs with their mission and beliefs. Our >>>> organizations purpose states that we "Help blind persons achieve >>>> self-confidence and self-respect and to act as a vehicle for >>>> collective self-expression by the blind." It's great if we can help >>>> people with additional disabilities in this framework without >>>> compromising our own beliefs. Unfortunately, that cannot always >>>> happen. >> >>>> Certainly we must embrace diversity and balance the common good with > >>>> our own individual interest. But, our legislation and advocacy speak > >>>> directly, often exclusively, to blind people in America. What do we >>>> do when these are not always compatible, and what should we do in >>>> the future if we want to stay relevant to Americans and on the >>>> cutting-edge? >> >>>> As Darian has said, there are no easy answers. Still, it's a >>>> question that we need to consider as we move forward. >> >>>> Brice >> >>>> On 3/7/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>>> Darian, George, Brice, Joshua, Marsha and all, >>>>> I would hope that us as blind people wouldn't judge those with >>>>> other disabilities. We understand what it's like to be judged, >>>>> doubted and ignored. Would we want any of our multi-disabled >>>>> friends, especially within our organizations, to feel that same >>>>> judgment? In that regard, we seem to share an eary resemblence to >>>>> the sighted public so many of us love complaining about. True other > >>>>> disabilities doubtless pose challenges. So does blindness, and we >>>>> overcome those inconveniences as best we know how. Why shun or >>>>> belittle someone whose other disabilities make it impossible, or at > >>>>> least more difficult than practical, to use the same techniques we >>>>> do? Our alternative techniques should never be seen as a one size >>>>> fits all kind of system. Because others, and I'm talking about >>>>> people like Marsha who have disabilities in adition to blindness, >>>>> may use a different approach. I'm disappointed in anyone who >>>>> thinks their way works for everyone. As Batman said, "it's not who > >>>>> we are that defines us. It's what we do." So let's all help each >>>>> other to do the best we can with all our various challenges and >>>>> disabilities, not just blindness. Best, >>>>> Kirt >> >>>>> On 3/7/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> Marsha: >>>>>> I think in that regard we have the same issue as the sighted. >> >>>>>> Just as some sighted judge us on our sight, or lack thereof, I >>>>>> think we as the "vanila blind" to use your words, have a very >>>>>> similar issue. >> >>>>>> Jorge >> >> >> >>>>>> On Mar 7, 2011, at 7:58 PM, Marsha Drenth wrote: >> >>>>>>> This is a very interesting question. Lets take those of us who >>>>>>> are hearing impaired and blind. Now blindness is my primary >>>>>>> disability, but I am hard of >>>>>>> hearing. Yes we have a deafblind division, but is it promoted as > much as >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> the parents, or the students? No, not at all. Are these > disabilities any >>>>>>> less than our blindness? No, not at all. But then my question is > that why >>>>>>> are those of us who are hard of hearing, deaf, hearing impaired, > or >>>>>>> whatever >>>>>>> you want to call it, second class to those vanilla blind persons > in the >>>>>>> NFB? >>>>>>> Why are those vanilla blind people so quick to judge those of us > who >>>>>>> can't >>>>>>> do things in the same as everyone else?Its the judgement of > people, that >>>>>>> has >>>>>>> kept some away from the NFB. I feel like a broken record in this > matter. >>>>>>> But >>>>>>> frankly blind people are very quick to judge others who are blind > for >>>>>>> their >>>>>>> abilities or the lack of skills. And its those same people who > judge >>>>>>> others >>>>>>> for the additional disabilities they may have. >> >>>>>>> Just my two cents, >>>>>>> Marsha >> >> >> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brice Smith >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2011 7:26 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Future of the NFB >> >>>>>>> I spoke to one of my old VI teachers last week who gave me some >>>>>>> interesting observations to consider. At least from the >>>>>>> perspective of this professional, more and more students who are >>>>>>> blind often have multiple disabilities. She suspects that medical > >>>>>>> advancements have made it so that children who previously did not > >>>>>>> survive are now living longer lives, but often with more >>>>>>> profound impairments. She notes that it is a "rare treat" for VI >>>>>>> professionals to work with students who are simply visually >>>>>>> impaired. Please understand that I do not have any hard data or >>>>>>> research to back up any of these observations. >> >>>>>>> I realize the NFB respects and values other disabilities. there >>>>>>> are many divisions within the NFB including the Diabetes Action >>>>>>> Network. However, I think most people can agree that our >>>>>>> organization is concerned primarily with blindness and not other >>>>>>> physical or mental disabilities. >> >>>>>>> This is not meant as a criticism of the NFB. Advocacy >>>>>>> organizations simply cannot be everything to everyone, and I >>>>>>> think it is a testament to our strength that we gather thousands >>>>>>> of blind people and raise a unified voice that might otherwise go > >>>>>>> unheard. But if the number of people with blindness as their only > >>>>>>> disability is shrinking, what does this mean for our future? >> >>>>>>> There has been discussion on this and other NFB lists about the >>>>>>> future of the organization with regards to membership recruitment > >>>>>>> and legislation and advocacy. If more and more people with visual > >>>>>>> impairments are born with multiple, "profound" disabilities, I'm >>>>>>> curious what, if any, impact would this have on the NFB in the >>>>>>> future and years to come. >> >>>>>>> Any thoughts are welcome. >> >>>>>>> Brice >> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brice Smith >>>>>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations > >>>>>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/marsha.drenth%40 > gmai >>>>>>> l.com >> >> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of >>>>>>> virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >>>>>>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of >>>>>>> virus signature database 5934 (20110307) __________ >> >>>>>>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >>>>>>> http://www.eset.com >> >> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac > .com >> >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 > 0gmail.com >> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%4 > 0gmail.com >> >> >> >>>> -- >>>> Brice Smith >>>> North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations >>>> Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40g >>>> mail.com >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi >>> %40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gma >> il.com > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > > End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 19 > ************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 20 ************************************** From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 20:31:02 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 16:31:02 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] SAT testing In-Reply-To: <20110314135113.1JKRC.18885.root@cdptpa-web10-z01> References: <20110314135113.1JKRC.18885.root@cdptpa-web10-z01> Message-ID: Humberto, How did the test go? Did you have all the accomodations you needed? Patrick On 3/14/11, dstrick1 at roadrunner.com wrote: > Hello all, is it really dificult to combine all of our thoughts on a > particular topic into one message? It gets annoying to see multiple messages > from the same person on the same topic in a row. > > Thank you, > Derrick > ---- bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Humberto, > I took the SAT before college but its changed since then. So they may not > have the analogies section they used to have. Other parts are about > vocabulary and reading comprehension. Of course I did badly on the math part > as that is my weakest subject. > These are my tips. If you are a good multiple choice test taker, apply some > of the principles you do for regular tests. > >  Read directions and sample questions carefully. >  As with other multiple choice tests, eliminate obvious wrong answers; > then pick the est one. >  If there is fill in the blank, read the sentence with the word choices > you selected and see if it makes sense. >  Don’t ponder on a question too long since you do not have all day; come > back to questions you don’t know if you have time. >  This tip may not work if you are taking the exam tomorrow, but if you > retake it, practice/study ahead of time. Practice analogies. Know synomyms > and antonyms for words. Stududy with a friend if you can find some test prep > material. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brianna Scerenscko > Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:28 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing > > I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I > wish you the best of luck. > > On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> Humberto, >> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse >> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, >> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and >> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! >> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may >> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you >> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT >> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. >> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. >> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. >> Patrick Molloy >> >> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very >>> interesting in fact. But I have a question: >>> Has anyone taken the SAT college entrance examination to enter >>> into college or scholarships? If yes, tell me any experiences >>> you've had with this test. If not, please wish me luck, because >>> well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >>> >>> Thanks, >>> humberto >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40roadrunner.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From aaatlantic at aol.com Mon Mar 14 21:38:07 2011 From: aaatlantic at aol.com (alex Atlantic) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 17:38:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] scanning software for the Mac Message-ID: hello all, Alex Atlantic here. I am looking for a scanning software for my Mac running on snow leopard and I did tried Kurzweil 3000 it wasn't accessible. From kramc11 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 02:21:09 2011 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 22:21:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] 2011 NFB of Massachusetts State Convention Program Message-ID: Please forward to interested parties. I highly recommend all blind students attend the NFB of Massachusetts State Convention The 58th annual convention of the National Federation of the Blind of Massachusetts will take place Friday March 25th - Sunday March 27th, 2011, and this will be great year for the Student Division! The convention provides a wonderful opportunity to network with blind students and professionals from all over the state. There will be two important gatherings of the Massachusetts Association of Blind Students (MassABS). Our Division meeting will be on Friday evening, and we will have a luncheon meeting on Saturday. Join us for enlightening speakers, informational sessions, and the opportunity to participate in elections of a new MassABS board as we shape our goals and policies for the upcoming year! Try to attend the entire weekend, but if you can only make it for part of the time, plan to attend the MassABS meetings on Friday night and Saturday lunch. The Massachusetts Association of Blind Students provides a setting where blind students can come together through meetings and social events. MassABS is open to all Massachusetts students (at any educational level) including non-traditional students. MassABS also provides information for any person who is interested in resources and techniques utilized by Massachusetts students even if they are not blind, not a member of the NFB, etc.. MassABS also sponsors an email list (open to both members and non-members), which allows the Massachusetts Association of Blind Students to communicate between meetings. This list is used to post events, announcements, fundraisers, and more. Most importantly, the list will be used to help the students of Massachusetts to network, discuss, solve, and discover new methods to resolve various questions. To join the list please visit http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/massabs_nfbnet.org or, you can look up the Massachusetts Association of Blind Students on FaceBook or MassABS on twitter. This year's meeting will be at the DoubleTree Boston - Westborough, a perfect venue for our convention, with excellent meeting rooms and accommodations with wireless access. Registration information for the conference, the full conference schedule and booking information for the hotel are all attached. You can stay overnight, but it is not required. If you can't afford a room, I can find an attendee that would be willing to have a roommate. DoubleTree Boston - Westborough 5400 Computer Drive Westborough, Massachusetts 01581 Reservations Telephone: 800-222-8733 Web Reservations: http://bit.ly/nfbma2011hotel Group Code: nfb Group Name: National Federation of the Blind Room Rate: $89.00 plus applicable tax For more information please check out: National Federation of the Blind of Massachusetts, Inc. 61 Middle St. #2 South Boston, MA 02127 Telephone: 617-752-1116 Email: info at nfbmass.org Twitter: Twitter.com/nfbma Website: http://www.nfbmass.org/ Or contact Mark Cadigan MassABS Secretary 508-446-7436 Kramc11 at gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: 2011nfbmconventionprogram.doc Type: application/msword Size: 44032 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kubasa at my.uwstout.edu Tue Mar 15 06:28:02 2011 From: kubasa at my.uwstout.edu (Kubas, Amy) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 01:28:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Senior Thesis Design Survey Message-ID: I have been asked, by one of our members, to circulate the following: David Andrews Hello All! My name is Amy Kubas and I am a senior majoring in Industrial Design at the University of Wisconsin-Stout. I will be presenting my Senior Thesis Project at the end of May and will be creating a design for people with visual impairments. I just presented 50 concepts to my professors and advisors who have in turn narrowed it down to 3 to move forward with. Though I value my professors opinions, I was critiqued by a panel of sighted individuals and wish to hear specifically from those whom I am designing for. I feel as though my design will have much more merit in the end if I am able to create it based on the responses I get from those who perform daily tasks without sight. Below you will find my Senior Thesis Survey. The survey is entirely voluntary and may take about 15 minutes to complete. Please feel free to leave any comments or suggestions to better design for those with visual impairments. When you are finished with the survey, please send it back to my email address at: kubasa at my.uwstout.edu Thank you for your time. Your input is GREATLY appreciated! Amy Kubas Industrial Design - University of Wisconsin - Stout Senior Thesis Design Survey Below is a list of 6 concept designs followed by a brief description of each. I would like to know which 3 products you would be most interested in purchasing if they were to be put on the market. At the end of the survey there is room for you to provide feedback for improvements/adjustments about the individual designs as well as write any suggestions about products you are interested in that I might not have considered for designing. Thank you for your interest and helping me with my Senior Project! 1. Electrical Outlet: This outlet would have recessed grooves that serve as guides to direct the user towards safely inserting prongs into the power source. 2. Salt and Pepper Shakers: Shakers would have raised tactile marks to determine which is the salt and which is the pepper without having to sample the contents of the shaker beforehand. 3. Measuring Cups: Cups would be marked with tactile indicators to inform the user which one is ¼ cup, ½ cup, 1/3 cup, etc. 4. Silverware: Utensils would be weighted and designed in such a way that the user would instinctively grab them in the appropriate direction (in other words, when someone picks up the knife for example, he or she automatically knows which way is blade side down by how the handle feels in his or her hand). 5. Storage Containers: Canisters would be marked with different amounts of grooves to allow the user to associate contents with how the canister feels (for example, flour is in the container with two grooves and sugar is stored in the container with one groove, etc.) thus eliminating the need for the user to open and test the contents of each canister before finding the ingredient he or she needs. 6. Cutting board: Board has evenly spaced ridges at the top that serve as a guide for cutting ¼ inch slices of tomatoes, cucumbers, onions, etc. It also has a small section recessed on the right to separate the scraps from portions you wish to consume and there is a ribbed surface that helps stabilize round items from rolling when you are slicing them into sections. Please list which 3 items you wish to see come into production. Please provide suggestions below on how I can design my products for best usability. Feel free to mention any other frustrations you run into when performing everyday tasks that you would like to see addressed with new product designs. Once again, thank you for your interest in helping me with my Senior Thesis. Your input is GREATLY appreciated! From freethaught at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 23:58:45 2011 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 19:58:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming Message-ID: Hello all, I am stuck catching up on missed work with hundreds of pages to be read quickly. Like, yesterday. I read mostly from RFBD recorded materials, and most if not all books fail to take full advantage of DAISY features to make books really most useful to all. I have no idea how to skim and browse through a poorly marked RFBD book. There is no physical structure like paragraph indentations, chapter and section headings, boxes, charts, italics, and other text booky features to ease the study process. Kurzweil may make this easier to accomplish with their browse features, but I haven't tried getting materials from bookshare since RFBD tends to have my texts in their collection. The study process is so much easier if I have a human reader, but I can't carry one in my pocket :D I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to cover, and there is yet no full navigation solution for a complete ability to navigate all of a book by exploring its parts, skimming, and extracting the author's thoughts. RFBD could make more scholars if their books would more closely comply with DAISY standards. i would be really interested to hear how you get this done. Looking for a better way to read, Antonio Guimaraes From freespirit328 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 00:07:15 2011 From: freespirit328 at gmail.com (Jennifer Aberdeen) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 20:07:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming References: Message-ID: <0A3406F7A05F4D41833BE4B1DBB94CCF@Gateway> "I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to cover" They don't? Maybe that's why I don't have a degree yet Maybe I'll try any suggestions that might be discussed here too. Jen ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! www.youravon.com/jaberdeen Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative freespirit328 at gmail.com 401-644-5607 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:58 PM Subject: [nabs-l] skimming > Hello all, > > I am stuck catching up on missed work with hundreds of pages to be read > quickly. Like, yesterday. > > I read mostly from RFBD recorded materials, and most if not all books fail > to take full advantage of DAISY features to make books really most useful > to all. > > I have no idea how to skim and browse through a poorly marked RFBD book. > There is no physical structure like paragraph indentations, chapter and > section headings, boxes, charts, italics, and other text booky features to > ease the study process. > > Kurzweil may make this easier to accomplish with their browse features, > but I haven't tried getting materials from bookshare since RFBD tends to > have my texts in their collection. > > > The study process is so much easier if I have a human reader, but I can't > carry one in my pocket :D > > I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to > cover, and there is yet no full navigation solution for a complete > ability to navigate all of a book by exploring its parts, skimming, and > extracting the author's thoughts. > > RFBD could make more scholars if their books would more closely comply > with DAISY standards. > > i would be really interested to hear how you get this done. > > Looking for a better way to read, > > Antonio Guimaraes > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 00:35:01 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 18:35:01 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: <0A3406F7A05F4D41833BE4B1DBB94CCF@Gateway> References: <0A3406F7A05F4D41833BE4B1DBB94CCF@Gateway> Message-ID: Umm...in poorly marked books, read the important stuff (fast forward through maps and irrelivant captions and fumbling descriptions of pictures), and bookmark like crazy. That's my only suggestion. Best, Kirt On 3/15/11, Jennifer Aberdeen wrote: > "I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to > cover" > > > They don't? > > Maybe that's why I don't have a degree yet > > Maybe I'll try any suggestions that might be discussed here too. > > Jen > ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ > Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! > www.youravon.com/jaberdeen > > Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative > freespirit328 at gmail.com > 401-644-5607 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:58 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] skimming > > >> Hello all, >> >> I am stuck catching up on missed work with hundreds of pages to be read >> quickly. Like, yesterday. >> >> I read mostly from RFBD recorded materials, and most if not all books fail >> >> to take full advantage of DAISY features to make books really most useful >> to all. >> >> I have no idea how to skim and browse through a poorly marked RFBD book. >> There is no physical structure like paragraph indentations, chapter and >> section headings, boxes, charts, italics, and other text booky features to >> >> ease the study process. >> >> Kurzweil may make this easier to accomplish with their browse features, >> but I haven't tried getting materials from bookshare since RFBD tends to >> have my texts in their collection. >> >> >> The study process is so much easier if I have a human reader, but I can't >> carry one in my pocket :D >> >> I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to >> cover, and there is yet no full navigation solution for a complete >> ability to navigate all of a book by exploring its parts, skimming, and >> extracting the author's thoughts. >> >> RFBD could make more scholars if their books would more closely comply >> with DAISY standards. >> >> i would be really interested to hear how you get this done. >> >> Looking for a better way to read, >> >> Antonio Guimaraes >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From gpaikens at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 00:39:19 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 19:39:19 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: <0A3406F7A05F4D41833BE4B1DBB94CCF@Gateway> References: <0A3406F7A05F4D41833BE4B1DBB94CCF@Gateway> Message-ID: <7B93C2AB-95D3-487F-AA3A-AC92A2A85396@gmail.com> Yes, at least on the graduate level, most classes give you enough reading that it isn't practical for most students to read all the material. Skimming becomes a skill that is vital. Antonio, I have been trying to figure this out as well lately. I too am frustrated by the fact that Daisy supports the kind of indexing that would be extremely helpful for skimming, but the amount of work necessary to put books in that format has apparently kept providers from doing so. I have RFB and D books that don't even index every page. That said, it is still way better than when we used taped materials. If you are using RFBD books on a Victor Stream, you could use the time jump feature and jump forward or backward in set increments. I suspect other digital players have this functionality as well. This isn't quite as good as skimming but it can be helpful. I would look on bookshare if you have not already. Being able to search for key phrases or headings can speed up the process. I don't know what field you are in, but much of my reading is journal articles which follow a predictable format. These are easier to skim through once you know the format of the literature. You can search for the method or results section etc. If others have found strategies to wade through ridiculous amounts of reading without reading every word, please share. -Greg On Mar 15, 2011, at 7:07 PM, Jennifer Aberdeen wrote: > "I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to cover" > > > They don't? > > Maybe that's why I don't have a degree yet > > Maybe I'll try any suggestions that might be discussed here too. > > Jen > ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ > Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! > www.youravon.com/jaberdeen > > Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative > freespirit328 at gmail.com > 401-644-5607 > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:58 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] skimming > > >> Hello all, >> >> I am stuck catching up on missed work with hundreds of pages to be read quickly. Like, yesterday. >> >> I read mostly from RFBD recorded materials, and most if not all books fail to take full advantage of DAISY features to make books really most useful to all. >> >> I have no idea how to skim and browse through a poorly marked RFBD book. There is no physical structure like paragraph indentations, chapter and section headings, boxes, charts, italics, and other text booky features to ease the study process. >> >> Kurzweil may make this easier to accomplish with their browse features, but I haven't tried getting materials from bookshare since RFBD tends to have my texts in their collection. >> >> >> The study process is so much easier if I have a human reader, but I can't carry one in my pocket :D >> >> I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to cover, and there is yet no full navigation solution for a complete ability to navigate all of a book by exploring its parts, skimming, and extracting the author's thoughts. >> >> RFBD could make more scholars if their books would more closely comply with DAISY standards. >> >> i would be really interested to hear how you get this done. >> >> Looking for a better way to read, >> >> Antonio Guimaraes >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Wed Mar 16 01:07:30 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 20:07:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Regarding Education Message-ID: >The President of the NFB of Nebraska is asking >for assistance with an education project. David Andrews > >Greetings Friends: > >Karen Lemmon, a long-time teacher and current >president of our Panhandle Chapter here in >Nebraska asks for your help with the below project. > >Thanks in advance for any help. > >Amy Buresh, President, NFBN > >The GOOD and the BAD >I am looking for information and stories of >personal experiences of blind individuals who >have been through, or are currently involved >in our K-12 classrooms as a blind or low >visioned student. All of us have stories to tell >and I am asking now that you report instances in >your education that made a positive difference >for you in your learning experience. I also want >to know the negative experiences you had as a >blind student, or in other words, what did not >work for you. You do not need to pass on names >of instructors or the name of the school, unless >of course you would like them to receive some >positive mention. I would be appreciative if you >would just submit to me two lists of what was >good and what was bad. I did not go through our >system of education as a blind student, as a >matter of fact I taught school for 18 years in a >system that had no plan to create the >opportunity for blind and low visioned students >to stay in the classroom and learn along side >the sighted students. The information I receive >from you will be very helpful in discussions in >a college level class offered at Chadron State >College titled ‘Resources for teaching blind >Individuals. (EDU 270). Below is an example of >some of the things that have been compiled this >research: Information will be confidential and may be sent to me anonymously. >Please email to: klemmon at bbcwb.net >or mail to my address at: Karen Lemmon > 104 Lemmon Road > Whitney, NE 69367 >My telephone number is 308-667-2054. > > > > >GOOD __ > >1. Examples of rocks and soils were labeled by >my science teacher in braille so that when the >samples were passed around the room I was able >to feel what the rock or soil felt like and to >identify it by name as it was passed around the room. > >2. A music teacher recorded my part on a cassette so that I could learn it . >BAD­­____________________ >1. I had a teacher’s aide assigned to me and she >did most of the work for me which seemed pretty >cool at the time, but as a result I know I missed out on a lot. >2. I used magnification for everything but as my >eyes got progressively worse I found myself >unable to read as I was never taught braille. >Please take part in this as it is very important >that we can relay this information to our future >teachers and we now have an outlet to do that at >Chadron State College. since our work here is in >progress, I would appreciate an immediate response. >Thanks >KLem > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Wed Mar 16 01:25:14 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 21:25:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming Message-ID: <20110316012514.29271.99533@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> It is true that sighted students often skip a lot of material. But the advantage in not being able to do that exactly as the sighted do is that you learn more. I usually have top grades in my classes, and I really do think it's because I have to read through more material than my peers do. After all, it is difficult to know exactly what material is not really required unless the professor spells it out for you. So the consequences of skipping through stuff might be that you don't get what you need from the material. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > "I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to > cover" > They don't? > Maybe that's why I don't have a degree yet > Maybe I'll try any suggestions that might be discussed here too. > Jen > ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ > Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! > www.youravon.com/jaberdeen > Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative > freespirit328 at gmail.com > 401-644-5607 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:58 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] skimming >> Hello all, >> I am stuck catching up on missed work with hundreds of pages to be read >> quickly. Like, yesterday. >> I read mostly from RFBD recorded materials, and most if not all books fail >> to take full advantage of DAISY features to make books really most useful >> to all. >> I have no idea how to skim and browse through a poorly marked RFBD book. >> There is no physical structure like paragraph indentations, chapter and >> section headings, boxes, charts, italics, and other text booky features to >> ease the study process. >> Kurzweil may make this easier to accomplish with their browse features, >> but I haven't tried getting materials from bookshare since RFBD tends to >> have my texts in their collection. >> The study process is so much easier if I have a human reader, but I can't >> carry one in my pocket :D >> I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to >> cover, and there is yet no full navigation solution for a complete >> ability to navigate all of a book by exploring its parts, skimming, and >> extracting the author's thoughts. >> RFBD could make more scholars if their books would more closely comply >> with DAISY standards. >> i would be really interested to hear how you get this done. >> Looking for a better way to read, >> Antonio Guimaraes >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From brice.smith319 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 02:13:07 2011 From: brice.smith319 at gmail.com (Brice Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 22:13:07 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: <20110316012514.29271.99533@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> References: <20110316012514.29271.99533@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Skimming through large amounts of reading is an essential skill. Nothing works quite as well as a DOC, PDF, or TXT file for me. I can search for key words and phrases and quickly move line by line with jaws faster than using a human voice. I can get through a research article or chapter in a third of the amount of time it would take me to use a book read by a human being. Brice On 3/15/11, Jedi wrote: > It is true that sighted students often skip a lot of material. But the > advantage in not being able to do that exactly as the sighted do is > that you learn more. I usually have top grades in my classes, and I > really do think it's because I have to read through more material than > my peers do. After all, it is difficult to know exactly what material > is not really required unless the professor spells it out for you. So > the consequences of skipping through stuff might be that you don't get > what you need from the material. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> "I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to >> cover" > > >> They don't? > >> Maybe that's why I don't have a degree yet > >> Maybe I'll try any suggestions that might be discussed here too. > >> Jen >> ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ >> Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! >> www.youravon.com/jaberdeen > >> Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative >> freespirit328 at gmail.com >> 401-644-5607 > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:58 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] skimming > > >>> Hello all, > >>> I am stuck catching up on missed work with hundreds of pages to be read >>> quickly. Like, yesterday. > >>> I read mostly from RFBD recorded materials, and most if not all books >>> fail >>> to take full advantage of DAISY features to make books really most useful >>> to all. > >>> I have no idea how to skim and browse through a poorly marked RFBD book. >>> There is no physical structure like paragraph indentations, chapter and >>> section headings, boxes, charts, italics, and other text booky features >>> to >>> ease the study process. > >>> Kurzweil may make this easier to accomplish with their browse features, >>> but I haven't tried getting materials from bookshare since RFBD tends to >>> have my texts in their collection. > > >>> The study process is so much easier if I have a human reader, but I can't >>> carry one in my pocket :D > >>> I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to >>> cover, and there is yet no full navigation solution for a complete >>> ability to navigate all of a book by exploring its parts, skimming, and >>> extracting the author's thoughts. > >>> RFBD could make more scholars if their books would more closely comply >>> with DAISY standards. > >>> i would be really interested to hear how you get this done. > >>> Looking for a better way to read, > >>> Antonio Guimaraes > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brice.smith319%40gmail.com > -- Brice Smith North Carolina State University, Communication - Public Relations Brice.Smith319 at gmail.com From freethaught at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 02:28:56 2011 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr.) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 22:28:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: <20110316012514.29271.99533@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> References: <20110316012514.29271.99533@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Disagree, Students learn better, think more critically, and extrac the excential information from interaction with text, and not even the simple act of reading and taking notes. Notes serve me only to rewrite what I need to learn. Interaction allowes greater participation, better attention, and superior comprehention of a material. Text books are not written as novels, and jumping throu paragraphs allowes one to decide what to read, and what to skip. I want to learn what I want to learn and not have to sit for weeks trying to get every detail down for a test that will only require a specific set of knowledge and information. Further more, a paper requires research, and students, even need to plow though hundrest of pages from douzens of articles just to decide what to write, and how to write it. Now imagine having to read every single word of every single article you think may have something in it for you. I would rather read critically than to read continuously. Antonio Guimaraes On Mar 15, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Jedi wrote: > It is true that sighted students often skip a lot of material. But the advantage in not being able to do that exactly as the sighted do is that you learn more. I usually have top grades in my classes, and I really do think it's because I have to read through more material than my peers do. After all, it is difficult to know exactly what material is not really required unless the professor spells it out for you. So the consequences of skipping through stuff might be that you don't get what you need from the material. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> "I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to >> cover" > > >> They don't? > >> Maybe that's why I don't have a degree yet > >> Maybe I'll try any suggestions that might be discussed here too. > >> Jen >> ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ >> Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! >> www.youravon.com/jaberdeen > >> Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative >> freespirit328 at gmail.com >> 401-644-5607 > >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:58 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] skimming > > >>> Hello all, > >>> I am stuck catching up on missed work with hundreds of pages to be read >>> quickly. Like, yesterday. > >>> I read mostly from RFBD recorded materials, and most if not all books fail >>> to take full advantage of DAISY features to make books really most useful >>> to all. > >>> I have no idea how to skim and browse through a poorly marked RFBD book. >>> There is no physical structure like paragraph indentations, chapter and >>> section headings, boxes, charts, italics, and other text booky features to >>> ease the study process. > >>> Kurzweil may make this easier to accomplish with their browse features, >>> but I haven't tried getting materials from bookshare since RFBD tends to >>> have my texts in their collection. > > >>> The study process is so much easier if I have a human reader, but I can't >>> carry one in my pocket :D > >>> I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to >>> cover, and there is yet no full navigation solution for a complete >>> ability to navigate all of a book by exploring its parts, skimming, and >>> extracting the author's thoughts. > >>> RFBD could make more scholars if their books would more closely comply >>> with DAISY standards. > >>> i would be really interested to hear how you get this done. > >>> Looking for a better way to read, > >>> Antonio Guimaraes > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Wed Mar 16 02:30:56 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 19:30:56 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] SAT testing Message-ID: The testing went well. I did have all the Braille accommodations I needed, and it was long! I think I did fairly well on the test, though I'm not sure when I get my scores. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Patrick Molloy To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Mon, 14 Mar 2011 16:31:02 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing >Humberto, >How did the test go? Did you have all the accomodations you needed? >Patrick >On 3/14/11, dstrick1 at roadrunner.com wrote: >> Hello all, is it really dificult to combine all of our thoughts on a >> particular topic into one message? It gets annoying to see multiple messages >> from the same person on the same topic in a row. >> Thank you, >> Derrick >> ---- bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >>> Humberto, >> I took the SAT before college but its changed since then. So they may not >> have the analogies section they used to have. Other parts are about >> vocabulary and reading comprehension. Of course I did badly on the math part >> as that is my weakest subject. >> These are my tips. If you are a good multiple choice test taker, apply some >> of the principles you do for regular tests. >>  Read directions and sample questions carefully. >>  As with other multiple choice tests, eliminate obvious wrong answers; >> then pick the est one. >>  If there is fill in the blank, read the sentence with the word choices >> you selected and see if it makes sense. >>  Don’t ponder on a question too long since you do not have all day; come >> back to questions you don’t know if you have time. >>  This tip may not work if you are taking the exam tomorrow, but if you >> retake it, practice/study ahead of time. Practice analogies. Know synomyms >> and antonyms for words. Stududy with a friend if you can find some test prep >> material. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Brianna Scerenscko >> Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2011 7:28 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] SAT testing >> I have taken it 4 times. I hope you've regestered for accomodations. I >> wish you the best of luck. >> On 3/13/11, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> Humberto, >>> Best of luck to you! Everyone always makes the SAT out to be worse >>> than it is. I found it to be a rather long process, but on the whole, >>> it was bearable. The diagrams for the math portion were clean and >>> concise and (in some cases), better than those in my math textbook! >>> All that said, if you don't get the score you're looking for, it may >>> not be you. It may be that you are taking a test which takes you >>> longer than your sighted peers. I have taken both the SAT and the SAT >>> 2. Honestly, the SAT 2 was more difficult, but that's another story. >>> Just take your time, read the questions carefully, and do your best. >>> Please let me know if I can be of any more help to you. >>> Patrick Molloy >>> On 3/13/11, humberto wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> Sorry to interrupt the other discussions, they are very >>>> interesting in fact. But I have a question: >>>> Has anyone taken the SAT college entrance examination to enter >>>> into college or scholarships? If yes, tell me any experiences >>>> you've had with this test. If not, please wish me luck, because >>>> well, I'm going to take the SAT test tomorrow! >>>> Thanks, >>>> humberto >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol loy%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%4 0gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthlink.net >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1% 40roadrunner.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.mol loy%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From dstrick1 at roadrunner.com Wed Mar 16 03:14:35 2011 From: dstrick1 at roadrunner.com (dstrick1 at roadrunner.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 3:14:35 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110316031435.RWJXE.7261.root@cdptpa-web05-z02> Skimming is a dangerous idea. I have had instructors where the skimmers were the ones who failed because we were tested on anything and everything. It does not tell you everything you need to know. ---- "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." wrote: > Disagree, > > Students learn better, think more critically, and extrac the excential information from interaction with text, and not even the simple act of reading and taking notes. Notes serve me only to rewrite what I need to learn. Interaction allowes greater participation, better attention, and superior comprehention of a material. > > Text books are not written as novels, and jumping throu paragraphs allowes one to decide what to read, and what to skip. I want to learn what I want to learn and not have to sit for weeks trying to get every detail down for a test that will only require a specific set of knowledge and information. > > Further more, a paper requires research, and students, even need to plow though hundrest of pages from douzens of articles just to decide what to write, and how to write it. > > Now imagine having to read every single word of every single article you think may have something in it for you. > > I would rather read critically than to read continuously. > > Antonio Guimaraes > > > On Mar 15, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Jedi wrote: > > > It is true that sighted students often skip a lot of material. But the advantage in not being able to do that exactly as the sighted do is that you learn more. I usually have top grades in my classes, and I really do think it's because I have to read through more material than my peers do. After all, it is difficult to know exactly what material is not really required unless the professor spells it out for you. So the consequences of skipping through stuff might be that you don't get what you need from the material. > > > > Respectfully, > > Jedi > > > > Original message: > >> "I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to > >> cover" > > > > > >> They don't? > > > >> Maybe that's why I don't have a degree yet > > > >> Maybe I'll try any suggestions that might be discussed here too. > > > >> Jen > >> ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ > >> Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! > >> www.youravon.com/jaberdeen > > > >> Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative > >> freespirit328 at gmail.com > >> 401-644-5607 > > > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." > >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >> > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:58 PM > >> Subject: [nabs-l] skimming > > > > > >>> Hello all, > > > >>> I am stuck catching up on missed work with hundreds of pages to be read > >>> quickly. Like, yesterday. > > > >>> I read mostly from RFBD recorded materials, and most if not all books fail > >>> to take full advantage of DAISY features to make books really most useful > >>> to all. > > > >>> I have no idea how to skim and browse through a poorly marked RFBD book. > >>> There is no physical structure like paragraph indentations, chapter and > >>> section headings, boxes, charts, italics, and other text booky features to > >>> ease the study process. > > > >>> Kurzweil may make this easier to accomplish with their browse features, > >>> but I haven't tried getting materials from bookshare since RFBD tends to > >>> have my texts in their collection. > > > > > >>> The study process is so much easier if I have a human reader, but I can't > >>> carry one in my pocket :D > > > >>> I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to > >>> cover, and there is yet no full navigation solution for a complete > >>> ability to navigate all of a book by exploring its parts, skimming, and > >>> extracting the author's thoughts. > > > >>> RFBD could make more scholars if their books would more closely comply > >>> with DAISY standards. > > > >>> i would be really interested to hear how you get this done. > > > >>> Looking for a better way to read, > > > >>> Antonio Guimaraes > > > > > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > > > -- > > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40roadrunner.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 03:26:37 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 21:26:37 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: <20110316031435.RWJXE.7261.root@cdptpa-web05-z02> References: <20110316031435.RWJXE.7261.root@cdptpa-web05-z02> Message-ID: Even in my Freshmen classes, you have to skim sometimes. There's just no way to cover thousands and thousands of pages of research articles, textbooks, papers, journals, etc...you have to pick the important points. Just a thought. On 3/15/11, dstrick1 at roadrunner.com wrote: > Skimming is a dangerous idea. I have had instructors where the skimmers were > the ones who failed because we were tested on anything and everything. It > does not tell you everything you need to know. > ---- "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." wrote: >> Disagree, >> >> Students learn better, think more critically, and extrac the excential >> information from interaction with text, and not even the simple act of >> reading and taking notes. Notes serve me only to rewrite what I need to >> learn. Interaction allowes greater participation, better attention, and >> superior comprehention of a material. >> >> Text books are not written as novels, and jumping throu paragraphs allowes >> one to decide what to read, and what to skip. I want to learn what I want >> to learn and not have to sit for weeks trying to get every detail down for >> a test that will only require a specific set of knowledge and information. >> >> Further more, a paper requires research, and students, even need to plow >> though hundrest of pages from douzens of articles just to decide what to >> write, and how to write it. >> >> Now imagine having to read every single word of every single article you >> think may have something in it for you. >> >> I would rather read critically than to read continuously. >> >> Antonio Guimaraes >> >> >> On Mar 15, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Jedi wrote: >> >> > It is true that sighted students often skip a lot of material. But the >> > advantage in not being able to do that exactly as the sighted do is that >> > you learn more. I usually have top grades in my classes, and I really do >> > think it's because I have to read through more material than my peers >> > do. After all, it is difficult to know exactly what material is not >> > really required unless the professor spells it out for you. So the >> > consequences of skipping through stuff might be that you don't get what >> > you need from the material. >> > >> > Respectfully, >> > Jedi >> > >> > Original message: >> >> "I know that the successful student does not read material from cover >> >> to >> >> cover" >> > >> > >> >> They don't? >> > >> >> Maybe that's why I don't have a degree yet >> > >> >> Maybe I'll try any suggestions that might be discussed here too. >> > >> >> Jen >> >> ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ >> >> Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness >> >> products! >> >> www.youravon.com/jaberdeen >> > >> >> Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative >> >> freespirit328 at gmail.com >> >> 401-644-5607 >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." >> >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:58 PM >> >> Subject: [nabs-l] skimming >> > >> > >> >>> Hello all, >> > >> >>> I am stuck catching up on missed work with hundreds of pages to be >> >>> read >> >>> quickly. Like, yesterday. >> > >> >>> I read mostly from RFBD recorded materials, and most if not all books >> >>> fail >> >>> to take full advantage of DAISY features to make books really most >> >>> useful >> >>> to all. >> > >> >>> I have no idea how to skim and browse through a poorly marked RFBD >> >>> book. >> >>> There is no physical structure like paragraph indentations, chapter >> >>> and >> >>> section headings, boxes, charts, italics, and other text booky >> >>> features to >> >>> ease the study process. >> > >> >>> Kurzweil may make this easier to accomplish with their browse >> >>> features, >> >>> but I haven't tried getting materials from bookshare since RFBD tends >> >>> to >> >>> have my texts in their collection. >> > >> > >> >>> The study process is so much easier if I have a human reader, but I >> >>> can't >> >>> carry one in my pocket :D >> > >> >>> I know that the successful student does not read material from cover >> >>> to >> >>> cover, and there is yet no full navigation solution for a complete >> >>> ability to navigate all of a book by exploring its parts, skimming, >> >>> and >> >>> extracting the author's thoughts. >> > >> >>> RFBD could make more scholars if their books would more closely comply >> >>> with DAISY standards. >> > >> >>> i would be really interested to hear how you get this done. >> > >> >>> Looking for a better way to read, >> > >> >>> Antonio Guimaraes >> > >> > >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >>> nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> > >> > -- >> > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40roadrunner.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Wed Mar 16 03:33:13 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 20:33:13 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming Message-ID: One other thought: Yes, you have the freedom to skim through textbooks, but like someone pointed out, don't skim too much. On the other hand, don't read too much either, don't overflow your brain. Do you know what I mean? *** Everything in moderation! *** > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 21:26:37 -0600 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] skimming >Even in my Freshmen classes, you have to skim sometimes. There's just >no way to cover thousands and thousands of pages of research articles, >textbooks, papers, journals, etc...you have to pick the important >points. Just a thought. >On 3/15/11, dstrick1 at roadrunner.com wrote: >> Skimming is a dangerous idea. I have had instructors where the skimmers were >> the ones who failed because we were tested on anything and everything. It >> does not tell you everything you need to know. >> ---- "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." wrote: >>> Disagree, >>> Students learn better, think more critically, and extrac the excential >>> information from interaction with text, and not even the simple act of >>> reading and taking notes. Notes serve me only to rewrite what I need to >>> learn. Interaction allowes greater participation, better attention, and >>> superior comprehention of a material. >>> Text books are not written as novels, and jumping throu paragraphs allowes >>> one to decide what to read, and what to skip. I want to learn what I want >>> to learn and not have to sit for weeks trying to get every detail down for >>> a test that will only require a specific set of knowledge and information. >>> Further more, a paper requires research, and students, even need to plow >>> though hundrest of pages from douzens of articles just to decide what to >>> write, and how to write it. >>> Now imagine having to read every single word of every single article you >>> think may have something in it for you. >>> I would rather read critically than to read continuously. >>> Antonio Guimaraes >>> On Mar 15, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Jedi wrote: >>>> It is true that sighted students often skip a lot of material. But the >>>> advantage in not being able to do that exactly as the sighted do is that >>>> you learn more. I usually have top grades in my classes, and I really do >>>> think it's because I have to read through more material than my peers >>>> do. After all, it is difficult to know exactly what material is not >>>> really required unless the professor spells it out for you. So the >>>> consequences of skipping through stuff might be that you don't get what >>>> you need from the material. >>>> Respectfully, >>>> Jedi >>>> Original message: >>>>> "I know that the successful student does not read material from cover >>>>> to >>>>> cover" >>>>> They don't? >>>>> Maybe that's why I don't have a degree yet >>>>> Maybe I'll try any suggestions that might be discussed here too. >>>>> Jen >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ __________________________________ >>>>> Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness >>>>> products! >>>>> www.youravon.com/jaberdeen >>>>> Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative >>>>> freespirit328 at gmail.com >>>>> 401-644-5607 >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:58 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] skimming >>>>>> Hello all, >>>>>> I am stuck catching up on missed work with hundreds of pages to be >>>>>> read >>>>>> quickly. Like, yesterday. >>>>>> I read mostly from RFBD recorded materials, and most if not all books >>>>>> fail >>>>>> to take full advantage of DAISY features to make books really most >>>>>> useful >>>>>> to all. >>>>>> I have no idea how to skim and browse through a poorly marked RFBD >>>>>> book. >>>>>> There is no physical structure like paragraph indentations, chapter >>>>>> and >>>>>> section headings, boxes, charts, italics, and other text booky >>>>>> features to >>>>>> ease the study process. >>>>>> Kurzweil may make this easier to accomplish with their browse >>>>>> features, >>>>>> but I haven't tried getting materials from bookshare since RFBD tends >>>>>> to >>>>>> have my texts in their collection. >>>>>> The study process is so much easier if I have a human reader, but I >>>>>> can't >>>>>> carry one in my pocket :D >>>>>> I know that the successful student does not read material from cover >>>>>> to >>>>>> cover, and there is yet no full navigation solution for a complete >>>>>> ability to navigate all of a book by exploring its parts, skimming, >>>>>> and >>>>>> extracting the author's thoughts. >>>>>> RFBD could make more scholars if their books would more closely comply >>>>>> with DAISY standards. >>>>>> i would be really interested to hear how you get this done. >>>>>> Looking for a better way to read, >>>>>> Antonio Guimaraes >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespiri t328%40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblind jedi%40samobile.net >>>> -- >>>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >>>> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaug ht%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1% 40roadrunner.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From jesusfreak262 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 07:03:44 2011 From: jesusfreak262 at gmail.com (Bre B) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 03:03:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: <20110316031435.RWJXE.7261.root@cdptpa-web05-z02> References: <20110316031435.RWJXE.7261.root@cdptpa-web05-z02> Message-ID: <4D8060D0.2020400@gmail.com> On 3/15/2011 11:14 PM, dstrick1 at roadrunner.com wrote: > Skimming is a dangerous idea. I have had instructors where the skimmers were the ones who failed because we were tested on anything and everything. It does not tell you everything you need to know. > ---- "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." wrote: >> Disagree, >> >> Students learn better, think more critically, and extrac the excential information from interaction with text, and not even the simple act of reading and taking notes. Notes serve me only to rewrite what I need to learn. Interaction allowes greater participation, better attention, and superior comprehention of a material. >> >> Text books are not written as novels, and jumping throu paragraphs allowes one to decide what to read, and what to skip. I want to learn what I want to learn and not have to sit for weeks trying to get every detail down for a test that will only require a specific set of knowledge and information. >> >> Further more, a paper requires research, and students, even need to plow though hundrest of pages from douzens of articles just to decide what to write, and how to write it. >> >> Now imagine having to read every single word of every single article you think may have something in it for you. >> >> I would rather read critically than to read continuously. >> >> Antonio Guimaraes >> >> >> On Mar 15, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Jedi wrote: >> >>> It is true that sighted students often skip a lot of material. But the advantage in not being able to do that exactly as the sighted do is that you learn more. I usually have top grades in my classes, and I really do think it's because I have to read through more material than my peers do. After all, it is difficult to know exactly what material is not really required unless the professor spells it out for you. So the consequences of skipping through stuff might be that you don't get what you need from the material. >>> >>> Respectfully, >>> Jedi >>> >>> Original message: >>>> "I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to >>>> cover" >>> >>>> They don't? >>>> Maybe that's why I don't have a degree yet >>>> Maybe I'll try any suggestions that might be discussed here too. >>>> Jen >>>> ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ >>>> Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! >>>> www.youravon.com/jaberdeen >>>> Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative >>>> freespirit328 at gmail.com >>>> 401-644-5607 >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2011 7:58 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] skimming >>> >>>>> Hello all, >>>>> I am stuck catching up on missed work with hundreds of pages to be read >>>>> quickly. Like, yesterday. >>>>> I read mostly from RFBD recorded materials, and most if not all books fail >>>>> to take full advantage of DAISY features to make books really most useful >>>>> to all. >>>>> I have no idea how to skim and browse through a poorly marked RFBD book. >>>>> There is no physical structure like paragraph indentations, chapter and >>>>> section headings, boxes, charts, italics, and other text booky features to >>>>> ease the study process. >>>>> Kurzweil may make this easier to accomplish with their browse features, >>>>> but I haven't tried getting materials from bookshare since RFBD tends to >>>>> have my texts in their collection. >>> >>>>> The study process is so much easier if I have a human reader, but I can't >>>>> carry one in my pocket :D >>>>> I know that the successful student does not read material from cover to >>>>> cover, and there is yet no full navigation solution for a complete >>>>> ability to navigate all of a book by exploring its parts, skimming, and >>>>> extracting the author's thoughts. >>>>> RFBD could make more scholars if their books would more closely comply >>>>> with DAISY standards. >>>>> i would be really interested to hear how you get this done. >>>>> Looking for a better way to read, >>>>> Antonio Guimaraes >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com >>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >>> -- >>> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40roadrunner.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jesusfreak262%40gmail.com I don't really skim to often because I enjoy learning about things in detail. However, when I do need to skim, I usually look at the headings to decide what is necessary for an assignment, since books often add tons of side notes etc. Personally, I think people can grasp a better concept of the lesson if the reading is done. Bre "One smile can creat one-hundred smmiles." From jsorozco at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 12:36:18 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 08:36:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: References: <20110316012514.29271.99533@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <85A6BBC3C909434096727AA08D8BD6F5@Rufus> Antonio, Yeah, I don't know how many people actually read the whole text in their studies. I'm sure Hermione would approve, but in my reality, this was never accomplished. I don't know if it's possible, but could you get a copy of Dragon Dictation, set it to record the RFB audio, and convert to text that way? I mean, you'd think it would be doable. I have no idea how much the Dragon software costs, so this may be of no use to you this time around. If I were in your position, I would probably speed up the audio to something quick but legible. Also, doesn't RFB mark their audio? I don't think it's one continuous recording, so I would probably listen to the first few minutes of each section and then move on. I assume you already have class notes, which you can then turn into an outline, and you figure out how much to listen to based on the structure of your outline. Yes, there are professors who will test you on things not covered in lecture, but the main points will have been covered in class. If you fill in the outline through this suggested method of audio skimming, you can later go back and listen to the most relevant sections more thoroughly, but perhaps the most important advice is not to postpone your reading until the last minute! Well, the second best advice is to buy the hard copy books and do your own scanning. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From aec732 at msn.com Wed Mar 16 17:33:47 2011 From: aec732 at msn.com (Annemarie Cooke) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:33:47 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] to Antonio G. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Antonio, RFB&D books are marked bty chapters and headings What device are you using to listen to these books? Please message me off list with the title and author of the book you found problematic. Many thanks, Annemarie Cooke RFB&D consultant aec732 at gmail.com From agrima at nbp.org Wed Mar 16 17:52:30 2011 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:52:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] New: Word 2010 Keyboard Commands Message-ID: <00ce01cbe402$eb9ca410$c2d5ec30$@org> Word 2010 Keyboard Commands With Jaws 12.0, Window-Eyes 7.2, and System Access 3.2 Compiled by Dean Martineau Braille (1 vol.) or eBraille (CD or download), $6.00 At last, here are the most common keyboard commands for the very latest - and reportedly quite confounding - version of Microsoft Word, in one handy volume. These commands work with Word whether you are using a screen reader or not, and regardless of which screen reader you use. Major headings include Word commands, JAWS commands for Word, Window-Eyes commands for Word, and finally System Access commands for Word. In addition to keystrokes, it also includes step-by-step instructions for customizing the keyboard and the Quick Access Toolbar. To order this book online, visit http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/WORD2010KC.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 18:47:45 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:47:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming Message-ID: <000701cbe40a$a434f110$ec9ed330$@com> Knowing what to read word by word and what to skim through is in itself a important skill for success. Certainly, sometimes you need to read everything that is written, and other times doing so would be an inefficient use of time. Electronic texts are, to me, vastly superior to audio recordings. Getting print copies of books and articles and scanning them is worthwhile, and will likely end up saving time even once you take scanning and conversion times into account. Control down arrow to move by paragraph is my best friend when simply trying to take in main points. Also, down and right arrow respectively skip by paragraph and sentence when in say all mode. Even if you are reading something in its entirety, e-texts are much quicker. Most JAWS users can listen to content at speeds from 350 to over 600 words per minute. The upper end of that range is significantly faster than most sighted folks can read for full comprehension. In the one graduate level class I took, I scanned all books and articles that were not already available electronically, and in conversations with fellow students I came to find out that I did more reading than most, and did it in less time. I also did a substantial research paper which required skimming through numerous articles to look for relevant material. So, I would suggest, have somebody scan for you, or rip the binding off, run it through a high-speed scanner, and convert with Open Book or the like. Trust me, you will end up ahead of the game in terms of time spent and content absorbed. Sean From BJLejeune at colled.msstate.edu Wed Mar 16 20:14:36 2011 From: BJLejeune at colled.msstate.edu (B.J. LeJeune) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:14:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Ann Sullivan Macy Research Training Program In-Reply-To: <000701cbe40a$a434f110$ec9ed330$@com> References: <000701cbe40a$a434f110$ec9ed330$@com> Message-ID: <4D80D3DC020000F00001CC7E@mailhost.groupwise.msstate.edu> Applications Invited for Research Training Program Mississippi State University’s Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low Vision (MSU-RTC), an independent center within the College of Education, is seeking a Ph.D. graduate student or post-doctoral candidate as the new Anne Sullivan Macy Scholar beginning in the Fall of 2011 or Spring of 2012. This program honors the unique contribution of Anne Sullivan Macy to the extraordinary educational experience of Helen Keller. A candidate who is blind or visually impaired is preferred, but applicants with significant experience in the blindness field who are not blind or visually impaired will also be considered. Candidates must have or be seeking a Ph.D. in the social sciences (e.g., rehabilitation counseling, psychology, social work, sociology, special education). Since 1981, MSU-RTC’s mission has been to enhance employment and independent living outcomes for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. In keeping with this mission, the goal of this training program is to support development of a scientist-practitioner who is well grounded in state-of-the-science research methods and practices, focused within the field of blindness and low vision. As a post-doctoral position, the program offers salary with full benefits and a tuition waiver for up to six credit hours. A student working toward a Ph.D. receives a full tuition waiver and monthly stipend. In either case, the recipient will participate in ongoing applied research, will have opportunities to participate in knowledge translation activities with professional and consumer advocacy organizations, state vocational rehabilitation agencies for the blind, and will attend regional and national training conferences. The Anne Sullivan Macy Research Training Program was established in 1992, supported in part by funding from the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research (NIDRR). Previous award recipients have gone on to work as researchers, professors, and administrators. The very first Anne Sullivan Macy Scholar, Dr. Brenda Cavenaugh, served as Interim Director of MSU-RTC from 2007 – 2010. The current research training program will be funded under MSU-RTC’s current 5-year NIDRR grant: Rehabilitation Research and Training Center (RRTC) on Employment Outcomes for Individuals Who are Blind or Visually Impaired. To learn more and to apply for the Anne Sullivan Macy Research Training Program, visit MSU-RTC’s website at http://www.blind.msstate.edu and select the “Employment Opportunities” button on the front page. Potential applicants are also encouraged to contact Dr. Michele C. McDonnall, MSU-RTC Interim Director, at (662) 325-2001 or via email at M.Mcdonnall at msstate.edu From jorgeapaez at mac.com Wed Mar 16 20:25:46 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:25:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Hello fellow NABS members. I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed regarding universities using Google Apps. >From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest isn't. (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we complaining for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose problems? Thanks, Jorge From nimerjaber1 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 20:31:48 2011 From: nimerjaber1 at gmail.com (Nimer Jaber) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:31:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: Hello, Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... Thanks. On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hello fellow NABS members. > > I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed regarding > universities using Google Apps. > > >From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest isn't. > (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), > > but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > > Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be > done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we complaining > for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose > problems? > > > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > -- Nimer M. Jaber The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email from your computer. Registered Linux User 529141. http://counter.li.org/ Vinux testing and documentation coordinator To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: http://nimertech.blogspot.com Phone: (720) (251-4530) Please reply to this email to contact me. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Wed Mar 16 20:34:30 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:34:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: <000701cbe40a$a434f110$ec9ed330$@com> References: <000701cbe40a$a434f110$ec9ed330$@com> Message-ID: <4E6BC242984B4E508A8A04CE4F6CA1BF@OwnerPC> Hi all, There is a place for both skimming and reading word by word. One major factor is time. Antonio, I know how you feel. I caught a bad cold some semesters and fell behind my peers and like you needed to catch up fast with hundreds of pages. I will write more later. I also use RFB a lot as my primary choice, just as you're doing. Most say electronic text is faster/easier. For me its not. I can speed up the audio speech. While I can listen to jaws fast, I can't learn well by speeding through it as I cannot take notes efficiently when I'm expending the energy to understand jaws at a faster speed. I read email/internet stuff faster, but processing everything is not so essential then. Antonio, I'll write more tips later. As Sean said, skimming by paragraph in electronic text is a good idea. If you know the exact word and its spelling you can also search for it by Control F. For RFB, I have not found a good solution. Here is a few thoughts. 1. If the reader starts describing graphs or tables/illustrations you don't need, skip to the next page. 2. If you're pressed for time, reading segments helps. I mean the first few pages. Then maybe five middle pages and the end of the chapter. Many books have a summary and list of key concepts or objectives. Read those summaries; I find they well paraphrase main points. Good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Sean Whalen Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:47 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] skimming Knowing what to read word by word and what to skim through is in itself a important skill for success. Certainly, sometimes you need to read everything that is written, and other times doing so would be an inefficient use of time. Electronic texts are, to me, vastly superior to audio recordings. Getting print copies of books and articles and scanning them is worthwhile, and will likely end up saving time even once you take scanning and conversion times into account. Control down arrow to move by paragraph is my best friend when simply trying to take in main points. Also, down and right arrow respectively skip by paragraph and sentence when in say all mode. Even if you are reading something in its entirety, e-texts are much quicker. Most JAWS users can listen to content at speeds from 350 to over 600 words per minute. The upper end of that range is significantly faster than most sighted folks can read for full comprehension. In the one graduate level class I took, I scanned all books and articles that were not already available electronically, and in conversations with fellow students I came to find out that I did more reading than most, and did it in less time. I also did a substantial research paper which required skimming through numerous articles to look for relevant material. So, I would suggest, have somebody scan for you, or rip the binding off, run it through a high-speed scanner, and convert with Open Book or the like. Trust me, you will end up ahead of the game in terms of time spent and content absorbed. Sean _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dstrick1 at roadrunner.com Wed Mar 16 20:45:48 2011 From: dstrick1 at roadrunner.com (dstrick1 at roadrunner.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:45:48 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110316204549.QS3AM.12195.root@cdptpa-web12-z01> Personally, I think it is just an attempt to get attention much like the blind driver challenge. I stipulate that the doj has many more important things to do then deal with google which being a private entity has done nothing illegal. ---- Nimer Jaber wrote: > Hello, > > Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and > are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but > very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing > their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting > sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are > falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on > accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > > Thanks. > > On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > > Hello fellow NABS members. > > > > I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed regarding > > universities using Google Apps. > > > > >From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest isn't. > > (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), > > > > but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > > > > Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be > > done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we complaining > > for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose > > problems? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > > > > > -- > Nimer M. Jaber > > The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. > If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify > me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken > as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient > may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my > machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible > for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions > or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. > Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these > instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies > of this email from your computer. > > Registered Linux User 529141. > http://counter.li.org/ > Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, > please click here: > http://www.vinuxproject.org > > To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP > and above, please click here: > http://www.nvda-project.org > > Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > http://nimertech.blogspot.com > > Phone: (720) (251-4530) > Please reply to this email to contact me. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40roadrunner.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 20:46:08 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:46:08 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: Nimer writes: "I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on accessibility for anyone. Just saying ..." Joe responds: If that's true, where's my fully accessible Android phone? Regards, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Mar 16 20:46:36 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:46:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Antonio, I agree with you. Skimming truly is an essential skill college students should learn. In fact, in most classes teaching study skills, skimming is one of the topics broached. I maintain a high GPA and practice skimming on a daily basis. Yes, some material you will want to read cover-to-cover, but not everything especially in classes that are textbook based versus literature based reading. And when researching for papers and projects, you can not read each word of each document you come across. Finding a reliable way to skim will help students especially as they progress through college. And I completely agree about the comment with grad school. Your reading load is often extremely heavy-- almost inhuman. *smile* It is not even expected for students to read an entire book or document most times. You must do what works best for you, and what you are comfortable with, but skimming, for many, is a crucial skill. I understand the frustration of how different groups like RFBD format each book. Some have great formatting that allows for easy navigation, but many do not. If you use a Victor Stream (or Victoria as I call mine) bookmarking will become your best friend. The time jump option is helpful too. Sometimes, I mark down a small note so I can easily identify what certain bookmarks are for. A lot of this is figuring out what works for you. You will develop your own tools and methods as you progress. And don't worry, skimming does not necessarily adversly affect your grade. It is all how you handle situation from situation, and also what each instructor expects from you. Bridgit Message: 8 Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 22:28:56 -0400 From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] skimming Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Disagree, Students learn better, think more critically, and extrac the excential information from interaction with text, and not even the simple act of reading and taking notes. Notes serve me only to rewrite what I need to learn. Interaction allowes greater participation, better attention, and superior comprehention of a material. Text books are not written as novels, and jumping throu paragraphs allowes one to decide what to read, and what to skip. I want to learn what I want to learn and not have to sit for weeks trying to get every detail down for a test that will only require a specific set of knowledge and information. Further more, a paper requires research, and students, even need to plow though hundrest of pages from douzens of articles just to decide what to write, and how to write it. Now imagine having to read every single word of every single article you think may have something in it for you. I would rather read critically than to read continuously. Antonio Guimaraes On Mar 15, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Jedi wrote: > It is true that sighted students often skip a lot of material. But the advantage in not being able to do that exactly as the sighted do is that you learn more. I usually have top grades in my classes, and I really do think it's because I have to read through more material than my peers do. After all, it is difficult to know exactly what material is not really required unless the professor spells it out for you. So the consequences of skipping through stuff might be that you don't get what you need from the material. > > Respectfully, > Jedi From jorgeapaez at mac.com Wed Mar 16 21:13:50 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:13:50 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: Precisely my thoughts. Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? Or Google? Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that problem. Just my thoughts. Jorge On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > Hello, > > Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and > are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but > very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing > their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting > sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are > falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on > accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > > Thanks. > > On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Hello fellow NABS members. >> >> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed regarding >> universities using Google Apps. >> >>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest isn't. >> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >> >> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >> >> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be >> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we complaining >> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose >> problems? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jorge >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Nimer M. Jaber > > The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. > If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify > me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken > as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient > may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my > machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible > for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions > or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. > Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these > instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies > of this email from your computer. > > Registered Linux User 529141. > http://counter.li.org/ > Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, > please click here: > http://www.vinuxproject.org > > To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP > and above, please click here: > http://www.nvda-project.org > > Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > http://nimertech.blogspot.com > > Phone: (720) (251-4530) > Please reply to this email to contact me. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From dstrick1 at roadrunner.com Wed Mar 16 21:28:32 2011 From: dstrick1 at roadrunner.com (dstrick1 at roadrunner.com) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 21:28:32 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110316212832.67EBI.6492.root@cdptpa-web20-z02> The nfb will never go after freedom scientific. They did not even make a fuss when fs turned off many people's braille displays with jaws 11. This is interesting coming from an organization that claims to promote braille literacy. Could it be that fs helps line the pockets of the nfb? How much does fs spend to get a spot at a convention? ---- Jorge Paez wrote: > Precisely my thoughts. > > Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > > Or Google? > > Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that problem. > > Just my thoughts. > > Jorge > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and > > are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but > > very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing > > their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting > > sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are > > falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on > > accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > > > > Thanks. > > > > On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Hello fellow NABS members. > >> > >> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed regarding > >> universities using Google Apps. > >> > >>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest isn't. > >> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), > >> > >> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > >> > >> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be > >> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we complaining > >> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose > >> problems? > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Jorge > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Nimer M. Jaber > > > > The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. > > If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify > > me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken > > as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient > > may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my > > machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible > > for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions > > or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. > > Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these > > instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies > > of this email from your computer. > > > > Registered Linux User 529141. > > http://counter.li.org/ > > Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > > To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, > > please click here: > > http://www.vinuxproject.org > > > > To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP > > and above, please click here: > > http://www.nvda-project.org > > > > Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > > http://nimertech.blogspot.com > > > > Phone: (720) (251-4530) > > Please reply to this email to contact me. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40roadrunner.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 21:30:03 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:30:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and add events etc. In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated differently. There are lots of things that can and should be fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind people in those universities is lying. My university uses Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use it...!! On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Precisely my thoughts. > > Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > > Or Google? > > Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that problem. > > Just my thoughts. > > Jorge > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and >> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but >> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing >> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting >> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are >> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on >> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >> >> Thanks. >> >> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>> >>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed regarding >>> universities using Google Apps. >>> >>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest isn't. >>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >>> >>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>> >>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be >>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we complaining >>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose >>> problems? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nimer M. Jaber >> >> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. >> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify >> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken >> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient >> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my >> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible >> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions >> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. >> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these >> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies >> of this email from your computer. >> >> Registered Linux User 529141. >> http://counter.li.org/ >> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >> To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, >> please click here: >> http://www.vinuxproject.org >> >> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >> and above, please click here: >> http://www.nvda-project.org >> >> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >> >> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >> Please reply to this email to contact me. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 21:34:41 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:34:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <20110316204549.QS3AM.12195.root@cdptpa-web12-z01> References: <20110316204549.QS3AM.12195.root@cdptpa-web12-z01> Message-ID: <4A4F10F3-9075-47B0-A9FD-A7FD0194929B@gmail.com> The point is that if schools have to stop using Google apps because of accessibility, Google will have to make Google apps accessible. But then again, some of the things they say on that press release are false. It looks like they just want to draw attention in this case. And sometimes that's not a bad idea...who knows... On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:45 PM, wrote: > Personally, I think it is just an attempt to get attention much like the blind driver challenge. I stipulate that the doj has many more important things to do then deal with google which being a private entity has done nothing illegal. > ---- Nimer Jaber wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and >> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but >> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing >> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting >> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are >> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on >> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >> >> Thanks. >> >> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>> >>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed regarding >>> universities using Google Apps. >>> >>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest isn't. >>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >>> >>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>> >>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be >>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we complaining >>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose >>> problems? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nimer M. Jaber >> >> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. >> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify >> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken >> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient >> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my >> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible >> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions >> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. >> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these >> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies >> of this email from your computer. >> >> Registered Linux User 529141. >> http://counter.li.org/ >> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >> To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, >> please click here: >> http://www.vinuxproject.org >> >> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >> and above, please click here: >> http://www.nvda-project.org >> >> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >> >> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >> Please reply to this email to contact me. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40roadrunner.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Wed Mar 16 21:39:49 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:39:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: I don't know, this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on this very list about precisely how accessible Google Apps are. Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to get attention. And get attention for what exactly? Jorge On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and add events etc. > In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated differently. There are lots of things that can and should be fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind people in those universities is lying. My university uses Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use it...!! > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Precisely my thoughts. >> >> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >> >> Or Google? >> >> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that problem. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and >>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but >>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing >>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting >>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are >>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on >>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>> >>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed regarding >>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>> >>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest isn't. >>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >>>> >>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>> >>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be >>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we complaining >>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose >>>> problems? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nimer M. Jaber >>> >>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. >>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify >>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken >>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient >>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my >>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible >>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions >>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. >>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these >>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies >>> of this email from your computer. >>> >>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>> http://counter.li.org/ >>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, >>> please click here: >>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>> >>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >>> and above, please click here: >>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>> >>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>> >>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 22:49:54 2011 From: orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com (Laura Glowacki) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:49:54 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached google and offer to help with that process? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint I don't know, this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on this very list about precisely how accessible Google Apps are. Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to get attention. And get attention for what exactly? Jorge On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of > accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and > calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an > HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good > thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other > software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, > but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my > emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and > add events etc. > In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated > differently. There are lots of things that can and should be > fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind > people in those universities is lying. My university uses > Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use > it...!! > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Precisely my thoughts. >> >> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >> >> Or Google? >> >> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >> that problem. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>> innovated and >>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>> works, but >>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>> doing >>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>> getting >>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>> companies are >>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>> to work on >>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>> >>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>> filed regarding >>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>> >>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>> the rest isn't. >>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>> yet), >>>> >>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>> >>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>> everything be >>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>> are we complaining >>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>> potentially pose >>>> problems? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nimer M. Jaber >>> >>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>> was sent. >>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>> please notify >>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>> Action taken >>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>> recipient >>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>> files on my >>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>> responsible >>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>> instructions >>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>> to you. >>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>> with these >>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>> all copies >>> of this email from your computer. >>> >>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>> http://counter.li.org/ >>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>> system, >>> please click here: >>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>> >>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>> windows XP >>> and above, please click here: >>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>> >>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>> >>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 22:31:25 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like a stretch, but it's all I can think of. Best, Kirt On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached > google and offer to help with that process? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps > complaint > > > I don't know, > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on > this very list about > precisely how accessible Google Apps are. > > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to > get attention. > > And get attention for what exactly? > > Jorge > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >> add events etc. >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >> it...!! >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Precisely my thoughts. >>> >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>> >>> Or Google? >>> >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>> that problem. >>> >>> Just my thoughts. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>> innovated and >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>> works, but >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>> doing >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>> getting >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>> companies are >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>> to work on >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>> filed regarding >>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>> >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>> yet), >>>>> >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>> >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>> everything be >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>> are we complaining >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>> potentially pose >>>>> problems? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Jorge >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>> >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>> was sent. >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>> please notify >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>> Action taken >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>> recipient >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>> files on my >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>> responsible >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>> instructions >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>> to you. >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>> with these >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>> all copies >>>> of this email from your computer. >>>> >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>> system, >>>> please click here: >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>> >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>> windows XP >>>> and above, please click here: >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>> >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>> >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From agrima at nbp.org Thu Mar 17 00:25:43 2011 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:25:43 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NBP-Announce: New: Word 2010 Keyboard Commands Message-ID: Word 2010 Keyboard Commands With Jaws 12.0, Window-Eyes 7.2, and System Access 3.2 Compiled by Dean Martineau Braille (1 vol.) or eBraille (CD or download), $6.00 At last, here are the most common keyboard commands for the very latest - and reportedly quite confounding - version of Microsoft Word, in one handy volume. These commands work with Word whether you are using a screen reader or not, and regardless of which screen reader you use. Major headings include Word commands, JAWS commands for Word, Window-Eyes commands for Word, and finally System Access commands for Word. In addition to keystrokes, it also includes step-by-step instructions for customizing the keyboard and the Quick Access Toolbar. To order this book online, visit http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/WORD2010KC.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . _______________________________________________ Nbp mailing list Nbp at nbp.org PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message and your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org . Visit us at http://www.nbp.org From dandrews at visi.com Thu Mar 17 00:34:34 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:34:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] FW: A Message from Jerry Munden at Prodigy Message-ID: I have been asked to circulate the following: >Prodigy® provides Accessible Diabetes Products >and instruction material on how to Live Healthy with Blindness and Diabetes > >Prodigy® continues to serve more of our vision >impaired friends with our NFB and AFB Access >Award winning Prodigy Voice® meter and test >strips, as well as the accessible insulin >delivery device; the Prodigy Count-a-dose™. >In addition to our accessible products, Prodigy® >realizes that Education is Key for healthy >living, so we have added to our website: > * The NFB audio book, "Bridging the Gap, > Living with Blindness and Diabetes," authored > by 19 experts in the blindness and diabetes field. > * The new training “Tools and Techniques for > Managing Diabetes Non-Visually”. Produced and > directed by renowned Blind Industries and > Services of Maryland (BISM). This training > demonstrates the skills for living well with > diabetes using non-visual techniques. > Instruction is presented by Lynn Baillif, MS, > RD, LDN, CDE, a blind diabetes educator, and > includes a demonstration on how to use the > Prodigy Voice® and Prodigy Count-a-dose™ products. > * The article due out in consumer diabetes > magazines this spring, “Adaptive Blood Glucose Monitoring with Vision Loss,” >authored by Debra Sokol-McKay, MS, CVRT, CLVT, CDE, OTR/L, SCLV. > * Prodigy adds diabetes educator Dave Joffe, > BSPharm, CDE, CPT, Clinical Associate Professor > College of Pharmacy University of Florida, to the Prodigy® Team. > * Get ready . . . on June 9, 2011 at 12:00 > pm EST, Hadley School for the Blind will host a > “Living Well with Diabetes” webinar. >Key speakers include: >· Margaret E. Cleary, Rehabilitation Nurse Consultant >· Naomi Tuttle, Instructor The Hadley School for the Blind >· Jerry Munden, Vice President of >Business Development Prodigy Diabetes Care, LLC > >To sign up for a Seminar at Hadley: > >1) Go to www.hadley.edu >2) Click on "Seminars at Hadley" >3) Click on "Registration" and enter required information >4) You'll receive an email with your "password" >5) On the day of the seminar, Login at “Registered Participants Login” with: >-User name: first name & last name >-Your Password >6) You may have to download a plug-in before signing on >7) When you enter, to use your mike, simply hold >down the control key and speak. > >Registration starts on the day the webinar is >advertised on the Hadley home page, usually >about 2 weeks before the webinar is presented. >If you do not wish to ask questions, you can >listen or text questions via the chat room. If >you can't attend, all webinars are archived and >can be found at >www.hadley.edu under the >heading: "Past Seminars." Anyone can download or >stream them. Hope to see you there! > >Prodigy® makes the helpful training aids >available to all Prodigy® customers, for free, >at >www.prodigymeter.com >in the Low Vision Center. Also, keep up-to-date >on Prodigy® Announcements: >Click >here and subscribe to our Low Vision and Blind Organization News Room! > >Prodigy® continues to work to provide new, >accessible products to fit the needs of all >diabetics, especially the blind and low vision. >Please be advised that the release dates for the >Prodigy IQ Pump™ and the Prodigy IQ Patch™ has >not been set. As soon as the dates are >announced, your organizations will be the first to know. > > > ** Use Prodigy® Products and Help Us to Help You ** > > >Please contact me at 704-285-6454 or Bernadette >Jacobs at 410-455-5311 >(bandbjacobs at verizon.net) >with any questions you may have. > >Here to Help, > >Jerry Munden (Living well with Type I for 30+ years ... and you can too!) >Vice President of Business Development >Prodigy Diabetes Care, LLC >Phone: 704-285-6454 Fax: 704-285-6495 >Email: jerrym at prodigymeter.com >Web: www.prodigymeter.com > > From dandrews at visi.com Thu Mar 17 00:45:58 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:45:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Survey: Camera Phone Question/answer Service Message-ID: I have been asked to circulate the following: Dave >From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >To: "David Andrews" >Subject: Please Distribute >Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:09:39 -0700 > >Can you please send the following to the various lists as you find >appropriate? > >Thanks, >Nicole > >http://survey.rochci.net/ >This form describes a research study that Jeffrey P. Bigham, >principal investigator from the University of Rochester, is >conducting in order to brainstorm potential uses of a camera-phone >question answering service designed to assist people with visual >impairments with everyday visual tasks. From kubasa at my.uwstout.edu Thu Mar 17 01:04:00 2011 From: kubasa at my.uwstout.edu (Kubas, Amy) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:04:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Adjusted Design Proposal Message-ID: This is a follow up from Amy Kubas who is the person who asked that we send out an informal survey, on her behalf, the other day. FYI: she is a relative of one of our members here in Minnesota. David Andrews First and foremost, thank you all for taking the time to help me with my Senior Project. I hope you don't mind me contacting you for further inquiries about your suggestions. I was not able to provide more background information in the previous survey and I hope you do not mind if I do so now. As part of our design process we are required to create a target persona of whom we will be designing for. My persona is an 80+-year-old woman whom has recently -gradually yet rapidly- lost her sight due to age. Part of my research presentation to my professors included the statistic that 70% of the 15 million blind and visually impaired persons in the United States are aged 65+ and their visual impairments are most often because of the inevitable aging process. The designs that were selected, I presume, had merit to my professors when dealing with the mobility issues that come with age (essential tremors, arthritis, etc.) and were reviewed in sketch form as opposed to a 3D model. I was worried I might step on some toes with some of the concepts I presented as the recipients of the survey were not privy to my entire research process up to this point (I understand that someone who is blind can more than easily plug in a cord, and am sure I came across as very naive to the majority of readers). I am hoping 3D modeling will help determine which concepts are more appropriate for those with visual and physical limitations and how to create them in such a way as most beneficial to the user. Further along that note, other survey readers had suggested that the products I had listed would benefit more for the user in a commercial setting as many of them have adapted to using those products in their homes in their own ways. (For example, the silverware concept would be more beneficial for use during a business meeting at a chain of restaurants that currently use more mainstream flatware than necessary for a user at his or her home. Moreover, picking up a fork instead of a spoon by mistake isn't the world's biggest problem.) That being said, some of my original concepts not chosen by my professors were actually written in as suggestions from other survey readers. I had a few designs based on stovetops that allow the user to distinguish where the actual burner is (as opposed to more common flat-topped ceramic stoves we have today) as well as interfaces that 'stick' at each interval rather than having a smooth transition from high heat to low heat. I also had a design for a tactile microwave interface as well as one for touch-screen ATMs. I explored washing machines and dryers, and even offered a 'schematic' of sorts that would map out a room for the user that would be an extension of the Braille signs they have now outside of offices, bathrooms, auditoriums, etc. Another approach I had was redesigning US paper currency to be more obvious to its denominations than it currently is today. I now know the majority of people I have been able to contact via the NFB mailing list are well past the transitioning stage and have already adjusted to a lifestyle without sight. As the majority of my responses came from individuals who do not fit the 80+ female demographic, I am hoping to re-examine my concepts and target persona in the next stage of development and provide my professors with the suggestions written in by your readers. I understand with product design nothing is really original. The majority of products are based off of already existing products and the main element that changes how those appear is technology. I feel as if some of my concepts were disregarded by my professors (the tactile stove for example) because it has existed in some form or another before (not that the salt and pepper shakers haven't already been out there, but a stove has been redone based on technology so many times over whereas a salt shaker has stayed relatively the same in it's basic form and function). I came across a quote from a blind man attending the CES convention who said, "There are (products) we can't use because they've been improved to death" which had inspired a lot of my low-tech concepts. There were numerous suggestions I had received about implementing technology into products and I am hoping to get back to each reader to get further help from them. Again, thank you for your sincerity in your response to my survey and for being patient with my very 'sight-minded' view of those with visual impairments. If you don't mind me writing you with further inquiries, I would love to hear more about your opinions of my concepts that weren't selected by my professors but seem in common demand by those I have been able to be in contact with. I hate to bother you all with another posting of a survey, but it seems as if there are things that need to be addressed that my professors might have overlooked from my original designs. Of the following, which would be most appealing to you as a user: 1] A cook top surface with more distinct ways of determining temperature gauges and specific heat surfaces (ex. Knobs that 'stick' at every temperature level from high heat to low heat, a thermostat that audibly tells you what temperature your oven is heating to, etc.) 2] A more tactile or audible way of determining settings on a washer and dryer 3] Tactile interfaces on touch-screen ATMs to help those with low vision select the right buttons to navigate through transactions 4] A universal schematic as an extension of already existing Braille signs that inform the user of floor plans for areas such as public restrooms, auditoriums, large office spaces, etc. 5] US currency (though I know bill-readers already exist I was hoping to design currency that could be determined without the aid of a reader. I received one survey response that suggested maybe even adjusting things ever so slightly so that a new less expensive bill-reader would be able to be used to do the trick. While a new design for reader-free currency might be the ideal option, the reality is that a more cost-effective approach to what already exists might be the best solution. And that suggestion just saved me quite some headache when it comes to tackling a national dilemma!) Other suggestions that weren't in my original 50 concepts but were written in by other recipients included: 6] A way of labeling or organizing electronic cords (ex. Printer cords, USB cords, Internet cables, cell phone chargers, etc. that seem to be kept in the same location) 7) A TV or TV Remote interface that provides more feedback to the viewer. In other words a system that informs someone they are on channel 31 as opposed to 65 or a way of reading scrolling text on news channels, severe weather alerts, the stock market updates, etc. Another recipient suggested a better informative way of interacting with the cable menu systems that come with most cable services. 8) A more cost-effective and more efficient color detector and/or clothes labeler 9) A universal labeling system for things such as canned goods, frozen goods, dry goods, etc. One reader mentioned he had magnetic labels for his canned goods, but if his sighted wife went shopping for groceries she might not always fully understand his system of labeling and will either put cans away without labels or mislabel cans with the wrong ones. 10) An all-inclusive carrying case for things such as a cell phone, iPad, and Braille display. 11) Audible sports equipment (balls that have sound so the blind and sighted can enjoy a game of soccer, etc. mutually. The reader also suggested an audible sensor that could be pinned to a sighted friend when skiing, biking, running, etc.) 12] A potting system for plants that will assist the user in keeping and caring for multiple plants in one pot. 13] a type of recipe holder that can be controlled by voice. One woman told of how it was cumbersome to have to wash her hands every time she wanted to read her braille cookbook to determine the next step in the recipe she was cooking. So potentially something that could be controlled by a simple vocal "Pause", "Back", or "Next" etc. during the cooking process. Are any of the concepts mentioned above of any interest to you? If so, which of those stand out to you? Could you please also provide me with any feedback as to whether audible or tactile cues might be more appropriate for one design versus another? Furthermore, as I hope to design a product that is also appropriate for someone who is currently adjusting to their vision loss, could those of you who have had experience with partial sight fill me in on any difficulties you ran into when transitioning into life without sight? What were your biggest obstacles? What were your frustrations? What things gave you the most relief in the transitional period? I now know the majority of people I have been able to contact via the NFB mailing list have already adjusted to a lifestyle without sight, but I am hoping you might be able to help me better understand the difficulties of the transition period in particular. Again, I apologize for the lengthy email, but want to sincerely thank you for all your help and patience! I look forward to hearing the responses from those of you willing to take the time and am excited to inform my professors of the concepts and improvements you have suggested me to move forward with! Warmest thanks, Amy Kubas kubasa at my.uwstout.edu From raul at asmodean.net Thu Mar 17 02:34:11 2011 From: raul at asmodean.net (Raul A. Gallegos) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 21:34:11 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Window-Eyes 7.5 is Now Available Message-ID: -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Window-Eyes 7.5 is Now Available Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 12:16:57 -0400 From: marc at gwmicro.com To: gw-info at gwmicro.com GW Micro is proud to announce the highly anticipated release of Window-Eyes 7.5. This version of Window-Eyes introduces several new features, including a completely re-designed (and much more intuitive) user interface, full UIA support, support for Internet Explorer 9 and Windows Live Mail/Windows Live Messenger 2011, plus a brand new Remote Assistance feature. In addition to these new features, Window-Eyes 7.5 also boasts a significant performance increase in Microsoft Office products, along with many bug fixes and stability improvements. Window-Eyes 7.5 is also the first version of Window-Eyes to re-brand the notion of scripts into a more comfortable and recognizable term: apps. Window-Eyes Apps embrace a broader sense of usage by including everything from program enhancements that deal specifically with accessibility issues to more convenience-oriented apps and everything in between. While the underlying structure of these Window-Eyes enhancements is the same industry standard that has been in place since its inception in Window-Eyes 7.0, the concept of an app is more widely known, and the use of this term will help eliminate the confusion often associated with the more technical expression. Window-Eyes 7.5 will include a number of new apps that have been designed to make your applications more accessible and create a more enjoyable computing experience overall. Read more about the additional features and enhancements that Window-Eyes 7.5 offers at http://www.gwmicro.com/Window-Eyes/Latest_Features <../../Window-Eyes/Latest_Features>. Window-Eyes 7.5 is a paid upgrade for existing Window-Eyes users. If you already own Window-Eyes 7.X and have an active software maintenance agreement (SMA), you will be receiving your Window-Eyes 7.5 CD in the mail soon. Please be patient; Window-Eyes SMA CDs are our first priority but it might take several days before we are able to ship the CDs to all of our SMA customers. You may also choose to download your Window-Eyes 7.5 upgrade for immediate installation. To download the Window-Eyes 7.5 upgrade, to check the status of your SMA count, or to determine your upgrade eligibility, go to the Window-Eyes Help menu, and choose the Window-Eyes Upgrade option. Alternatively, you can visit http://www.gwmicro.com/upgrade <../../upgrade>, and follow the instructions. If you already own Window-Eyes but don’t have an active SMA, you may purchase an upgrade to Window-Eyes 7.5. Please contact GW Micro or your local dealer for upgrade pricing. US customers can also refer to the GW Micro Window-Eyes Upgrade Catalog page (https://www.gwmicro.com/Catalog/Upgrades/) for applicable upgrade costs. Window-Eyes 7.5 supports Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows Server 2003 and Windows Server 2008. As of July 13, 2010, Microsoft ended support for all Windows 2000 products. Window-Eyes 7.5, therefore, will not install under Windows 2000, and requires at least Windows XP to run. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact us at 260 486-3671, or support at gwmicro.com . From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 17 03:16:11 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 23:16:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: <85A6BBC3C909434096727AA08D8BD6F5@Rufus> References: <20110316012514.29271.99533@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> <85A6BBC3C909434096727AA08D8BD6F5@Rufus> Message-ID: Joe and all, Unfortunately, I've only seen rfb mark pages and chapters not major section headings in books. I can book mark a major subject heading, but don't think rfb does that. I have lecture notes to see the main points and use that as a guide for reading. Normally I just read the whole chapter, but when pressed for time do try skimming. What I do to attempt to skim rfb books is read a few pages, skip some pages and read another page. If it’s the same subject matter, I skip to the next page. For instance my interpersonal communication book went on and on page after page with examples of social communities. So after reading the main heading through, I heard the subheadings and skipped those and skipped the box examples too. The best I could do was to listen page by page for a new topic; if it was the same one, go to the next page. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:36 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] skimming Antonio, Yeah, I don't know how many people actually read the whole text in their studies. I'm sure Hermione would approve, but in my reality, this was never accomplished. I don't know if it's possible, but could you get a copy of Dragon Dictation, set it to record the RFB audio, and convert to text that way? I mean, you'd think it would be doable. I have no idea how much the Dragon software costs, so this may be of no use to you this time around. If I were in your position, I would probably speed up the audio to something quick but legible. Also, doesn't RFB mark their audio? I don't think it's one continuous recording, so I would probably listen to the first few minutes of each section and then move on. I assume you already have class notes, which you can then turn into an outline, and you figure out how much to listen to based on the structure of your outline. Yes, there are professors who will test you on things not covered in lecture, but the main points will have been covered in class. If you fill in the outline through this suggested method of audio skimming, you can later go back and listen to the most relevant sections more thoroughly, but perhaps the most important advice is not to postpone your reading until the last minute! Well, the second best advice is to buy the hard copy books and do your own scanning. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 17 03:48:56 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 23:48:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: Ignosi, My school uses a google email system. Its pretty accessible but could be improved. Do you use jaws? How do you access the calendar? -----Original Message----- From: Ignasi Cambra Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 5:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and add events etc. In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated differently. There are lots of things that can and should be fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind people in those universities is lying. My university uses Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use it...!! On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Precisely my thoughts. > > Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > > Or Google? > > Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that problem. > > Just my thoughts. > > Jorge > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and >> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but >> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing >> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting >> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are >> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on >> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >> >> Thanks. >> >> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>> >>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed >>> regarding >>> universities using Google Apps. >>> >>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest >>>> isn't. >>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >>> >>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>> >>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything >>> be >>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we >>> complaining >>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially >>> pose >>> problems? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nimer M. Jaber >> >> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. >> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify >> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken >> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient >> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my >> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible >> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions >> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. >> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these >> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies >> of this email from your computer. >> >> Registered Linux User 529141. >> http://counter.li.org/ >> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >> To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, >> please click here: >> http://www.vinuxproject.org >> >> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >> and above, please click here: >> http://www.nvda-project.org >> >> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >> >> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >> Please reply to this email to contact me. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From lizmohnke at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 04:01:24 2011 From: lizmohnke at hotmail.com (Elizabeth) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 00:01:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com>, , , , , , Message-ID: Hello All, I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true because my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to all students. Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. Elizabeth > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 > From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not > wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I > know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the > likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, > litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some > limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like > a stretch, but it's all I can think of. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback > > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things > > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached > > google and offer to help with that process? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jorge Paez" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps > > complaint > > > > > > I don't know, > > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on > > this very list about > > precisely how accessible Google Apps are. > > > > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to > > get attention. > > > > And get attention for what exactly? > > > > Jorge > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > > > >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of > >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and > >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an > >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good > >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other > >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, > >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my > >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and > >> add events etc. > >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated > >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be > >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind > >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses > >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use > >> it...!! > >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> > >>> Precisely my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > >>> > >>> Or Google? > >>> > >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix > >>> that problem. > >>> > >>> Just my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Jorge > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hello, > >>>> > >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have > >>>> innovated and > >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW > >>>> works, but > >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies > >>>> doing > >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB > >>>> getting > >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader > >>>> companies are > >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused > >>>> to work on > >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National > >>>>> filed regarding > >>>>> universities using Google Apps. > >>>>> > >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but > >>>>>> the rest isn't. > >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of > >>>>> yet), > >>>>> > >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > >>>>> > >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that > >>>>> everything be > >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or > >>>>> are we complaining > >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could > >>>>> potentially pose > >>>>> problems? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> Jorge > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Nimer M. Jaber > >>>> > >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it > >>>> was sent. > >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, > >>>> please notify > >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. > >>>> Action taken > >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended > >>>> recipient > >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all > >>>> files on my > >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held > >>>> responsible > >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any > >>>> instructions > >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up > >>>> to you. > >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply > >>>> with these > >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy > >>>> all copies > >>>> of this email from your computer. > >>>> > >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. > >>>> http://counter.li.org/ > >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating > >>>> system, > >>>> please click here: > >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org > >>>> > >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for > >>>> windows XP > >>>> and above, please click here: > >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org > >>>> > >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com > >>>> > >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) > >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for nabs-l: > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>> info for nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 17 04:27:09 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 00:27:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com>, , , , , , Message-ID: My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and text! You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite frustrating. Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software to communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Hello All, I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true because my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to all students. Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. Elizabeth > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 > From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not > wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I > know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the > likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, > litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some > limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like > a stretch, but it's all I can think of. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback > > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things > > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached > > google and offer to help with that process? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jorge Paez" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps > > complaint > > > > > > I don't know, > > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on > > this very list about > > precisely how accessible Google Apps are. > > > > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to > > get attention. > > > > And get attention for what exactly? > > > > Jorge > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > > > >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of > >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and > >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an > >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good > >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other > >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, > >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my > >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and > >> add events etc. > >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated > >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be > >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind > >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses > >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use > >> it...!! > >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> > >>> Precisely my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > >>> > >>> Or Google? > >>> > >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix > >>> that problem. > >>> > >>> Just my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Jorge > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hello, > >>>> > >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have > >>>> innovated and > >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW > >>>> works, but > >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies > >>>> doing > >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB > >>>> getting > >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader > >>>> companies are > >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused > >>>> to work on > >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National > >>>>> filed regarding > >>>>> universities using Google Apps. > >>>>> > >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but > >>>>>> the rest isn't. > >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of > >>>>> yet), > >>>>> > >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > >>>>> > >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that > >>>>> everything be > >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or > >>>>> are we complaining > >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could > >>>>> potentially pose > >>>>> problems? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> Jorge > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Nimer M. Jaber > >>>> > >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it > >>>> was sent. > >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, > >>>> please notify > >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. > >>>> Action taken > >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended > >>>> recipient > >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all > >>>> files on my > >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held > >>>> responsible > >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any > >>>> instructions > >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up > >>>> to you. > >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply > >>>> with these > >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy > >>>> all copies > >>>> of this email from your computer. > >>>> > >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. > >>>> http://counter.li.org/ > >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating > >>>> system, > >>>> please click here: > >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org > >>>> > >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for > >>>> windows XP > >>>> and above, please click here: > >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org > >>>> > >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com > >>>> > >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) > >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for nabs-l: > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>> info for nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu Mar 17 05:44:42 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 00:44:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Help! I'm having problems with Blackboard! Message-ID: Hi, it's Joshua Lester. I thought that the NFB had already worked everything out with Blackboard. Well, it's acting up. I can log in, go to my courses, click course content, and go to my assignment. When I go to begin, that's when the trouble starts. The Jaws won't read the assignments to me. I'm trying to complete my study guide, for bonus points. Our test is this afternoon, so I need help ASAP! I had the assignment printed out, but something came up, so my work-study and i couldn't work. Thanks for your help. Blessings, Joshua From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 05:51:38 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:51:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: RFB&D National Achievement Awards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been asked to pass along the following. I hope this is of help to you, and that you would pass this along ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Greenwald, Melissa" Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:47:17 -0500 Subject: RFB&D National Achievement Awards To: Darian Smith Hi Darian, We spoke earlier in the year about the RFB&D National Achievement Awards offered to visually impaired students. I wanted to reach out to you and let you know that the deadline has been extended to March 25, 2011. RFB&D members who are blind or visually impaired and have or will be receiving a bachelor's, master's or doctorate degree between July 1, 2010 and June 30, 2011 are eligible to apply. I've attached the application and hope that you can pass this information along to anyone you see fit. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. Best, Melissa Greenwald Melissa Greenwald Marketing Associate Organizational Positioning Department __________________________________ [cid:image001.jpg at 01CBDF18.4C9C4530] Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic 20 Roszel Road, Princeton, NJ 08540 609-243-7087 / Direct mgreenwald at rfbd.org www.rfbd.org -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SAA Application.doc Type: application/msword Size: 71680 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 07:03:01 2011 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 03:03:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Help! I'm having problems with Blackboard! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Josh: What version of Blackboard is your school using? I believe the latest version, 9.1 is accessible but if it's a previous version than 9.1 it may not be fully accessible. Hope that helps! Kerri On 3/17/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi, it's Joshua Lester. > I thought that the NFB had already worked everything out with > Blackboard. Well, it's acting up. I can log in, go to my courses, > click course content, and go to my assignment. When I go to begin, > that's when the trouble starts. The Jaws won't read the assignments to > me. I'm trying to complete my study guide, for bonus points. Our test > is this afternoon, so I need help ASAP! I had the assignment printed > out, but something came up, so my work-study and i couldn't work. > Thanks for your help. Blessings, Joshua > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com > From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu Mar 17 07:45:48 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 02:45:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Help! I'm having problems with Blackboard! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Kerri. I tried it again, and was able to answer two questions. After the second question, something wierd popped up. The Jaws didn't read it, but my brother told me that it was wanting me to install some new updates to Windows. I don't think my computer has enough memory to keep installing updates. If I don't, the Jaws stops working, altogether. What do I do? I'm tired of this mess! To quote David Crowder, (Contemporary Christian artist,) "Technology is a killer." Blessings, and thanks for your help. Joshua On 3/17/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: > Hi Josh: > > What version of Blackboard is your school using? > > I believe the latest version, 9.1 is accessible but if it's a previous > version than 9.1 it may not be fully accessible. > > Hope that helps! > > Kerri > > On 3/17/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Hi, it's Joshua Lester. >> I thought that the NFB had already worked everything out with >> Blackboard. Well, it's acting up. I can log in, go to my courses, >> click course content, and go to my assignment. When I go to begin, >> that's when the trouble starts. The Jaws won't read the assignments to >> me. I'm trying to complete my study guide, for bonus points. Our test >> is this afternoon, so I need help ASAP! I had the assignment printed >> out, but something came up, so my work-study and i couldn't work. >> Thanks for your help. Blessings, Joshua >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From herekittykat2 at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 10:33:06 2011 From: herekittykat2 at gmail.com (Jewel) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 06:33:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Help! I'm having problems with Blackboard! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A temporary fix so you can complete the assignment would be to go to the library and use one of the computers there. Go to www.nvda-project.org and get the Flash Drive version of the scrrenreader. It's free, and you just put it on a flash drive. Then, when you go on a computer that doesn't have a screenreader, get someone to go into Computer to your flash drive and click on the NVDA screenreader ther. It will start running without an install necessary. The school computers should have the latest Windows update and all that jazz, so that will be one less barrier to deal with. Then, get a librarian or library aide to help you with Blackboard as needed. Explain what is going on, and ask them for advice or help. Be polite and sweet, and they'll be willing to help. This is certainly not a fix, it's just a temporary way for you to get in to get your assignment done. I hope it helps! On 3/17/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Hi, Kerri. > I tried it again, and was able to answer two questions. After the > second question, something wierd popped up. The Jaws didn't read it, > but my brother told me that it was wanting me to install some new > updates to Windows. I don't think my computer has enough memory to > keep installing updates. If I don't, the Jaws stops working, > altogether. What do I do? I'm tired of this mess! To quote David > Crowder, (Contemporary Christian artist,) "Technology is a killer." > Blessings, and thanks for your help. > Joshua > > On 3/17/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> Hi Josh: >> >> What version of Blackboard is your school using? >> >> I believe the latest version, 9.1 is accessible but if it's a previous >> version than 9.1 it may not be fully accessible. >> >> Hope that helps! >> >> Kerri >> >> On 3/17/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester. >>> I thought that the NFB had already worked everything out with >>> Blackboard. Well, it's acting up. I can log in, go to my courses, >>> click course content, and go to my assignment. When I go to begin, >>> that's when the trouble starts. The Jaws won't read the assignments to >>> me. I'm trying to complete my study guide, for bonus points. Our test >>> is this afternoon, so I need help ASAP! I had the assignment printed >>> out, but something came up, so my work-study and i couldn't work. >>> Thanks for your help. Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com > -- Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 10:37:14 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 06:37:14 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com>, , , , , , Message-ID: <1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when you log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but there is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You can navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client such as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's actually not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs site itself is not accessible. On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, wrote: > My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and text! > You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite frustrating. > Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software to communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > > Hello All, > > I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true because my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to all students. > > Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. > > Elizabeth > > >> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >> > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >> > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >> > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >> > google and offer to help with that process? >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Jorge Paez" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >> > complaint >> > >> > >> > I don't know, >> > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >> > this very list about >> > precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >> > >> > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >> > get attention. >> > >> > And get attention for what exactly? >> > >> > Jorge >> > >> > >> > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> > >> >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >> >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >> >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >> >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >> >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >> >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >> >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >> >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >> >> add events etc. >> >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >> >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >> >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >> >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >> >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >> >> it...!! >> >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >> >> >>> Precisely my thoughts. >> >>> >> >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >> >>> >> >>> Or Google? >> >>> >> >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >> >>> that problem. >> >>> >> >>> Just my thoughts. >> >>> >> >>> Jorge >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hello, >> >>>> >> >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >> >>>> innovated and >> >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >> >>>> works, but >> >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >> >>>> doing >> >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >> >>>> getting >> >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >> >>>> companies are >> >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >> >>>> to work on >> >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks. >> >>>> >> >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >> >>>>> filed regarding >> >>>>> universities using Google Apps. >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >> >>>>>> the rest isn't. >> >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >> >>>>> yet), >> >>>>> >> >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >> >>>>> everything be >> >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >> >>>>> are we complaining >> >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >> >>>>> potentially pose >> >>>>> problems? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Jorge >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>> info for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Nimer M. Jaber >> >>>> >> >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >> >>>> was sent. >> >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >> >>>> please notify >> >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >> >>>> Action taken >> >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >> >>>> recipient >> >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >> >>>> files on my >> >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >> >>>> responsible >> >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >> >>>> instructions >> >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >> >>>> to you. >> >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >> >>>> with these >> >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >> >>>> all copies >> >>>> of this email from your computer. >> >>>> >> >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >> >>>> http://counter.li.org/ >> >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >> >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >> >>>> system, >> >>>> please click here: >> >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >> >>>> >> >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >> >>>> windows XP >> >>>> and above, please click here: >> >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >> >>>> >> >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >> >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >> >>>> >> >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >> >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for nabs-l: >> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>> info for nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 10:41:41 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 06:41:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com>, , , , , , Message-ID: <22676202-088E-4384-8C09-0207EC317A0E@gmail.com> In case it helps, the link you can use to switch to the more accessible version of google mail is located right before the copyright notice at the bottom of the gmail site. Log in, and look for it. It's called "classic html" or "basic html" or something like that. You only have to do this once. Whenever you log in after that, it will remember that you want the basic html site and not the regular one. On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hello All, > > I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true because my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to all students. > > Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. > > Elizabeth > > >> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>> google and offer to help with that process? >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>> complaint >>> >>> >>> I don't know, >>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>> this very list about >>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>> >>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>> get attention. >>> >>> And get attention for what exactly? >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> >>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>> add events etc. >>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>> it...!! >>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> >>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>> >>>>> Or Google? >>>>> >>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>> that problem. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> Jorge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> >>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>> innovated and >>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>> works, but >>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>> doing >>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>> getting >>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>> companies are >>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>> to work on >>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>> >>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>> >>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>> was sent. >>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>> please notify >>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>> Action taken >>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>> recipient >>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>> files on my >>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>> responsible >>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>> instructions >>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>> to you. >>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>> with these >>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>> all copies >>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>> >>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>> system, >>>>>> please click here: >>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>> windows XP >>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 10:45:38 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 06:45:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: I use a Mac, and it is possible to use the calendar with Safari and VoiceOver. It's not nearly as accessible as the email part is, but I'm able to add, read and edit events just fine. Mac OS X also comes with a calendar application (iCal)which is able to connect to Google Calendar. That's what I normally use, because iCal is actually accessible and allows me to use my calendar with no limitations. On Mar 16, 2011, at 11:48 PM, wrote: > Ignosi, > My school uses a google email system. > Its pretty accessible but could be improved. > Do you use jaws? How do you access the calendar? > > -----Original Message----- From: Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 5:30 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and add events etc. > In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated differently. There are lots of things that can and should be fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind people in those universities is lying. My university uses Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use it...!! > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Precisely my thoughts. >> >> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >> >> Or Google? >> >> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that problem. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and >>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but >>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing >>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting >>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are >>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on >>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>> >>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed regarding >>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>> >>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest isn't. >>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >>>> >>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>> >>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be >>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we complaining >>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose >>>> problems? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nimer M. Jaber >>> >>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. >>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify >>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken >>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient >>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my >>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible >>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions >>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. >>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these >>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies >>> of this email from your computer. >>> >>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>> http://counter.li.org/ >>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, >>> please click here: >>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>> >>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >>> and above, please click here: >>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>> >>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>> >>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu Mar 17 12:39:12 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 07:39:12 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Help! I'm having problems with Blackboard! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. Will do. Blessings, joshua On 3/17/11, Jewel wrote: > A temporary fix so you can complete the assignment would be to go to > the library and use one of the computers there. Go to > www.nvda-project.org and get the Flash Drive version of the > scrrenreader. It's free, and you just put it on a flash drive. Then, > when you go on a computer that doesn't have a screenreader, get > someone to go into Computer to your flash drive and click on the NVDA > screenreader ther. It will start running without an install necessary. > > The school computers should have the latest Windows update and all > that jazz, so that will be one less barrier to deal with. Then, get a > librarian or library aide to help you with Blackboard as needed. > Explain what is going on, and ask them for advice or help. Be polite > and sweet, and they'll be willing to help. > > This is certainly not a fix, it's just a temporary way for you to get > in to get your assignment done. I hope it helps! > > On 3/17/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Hi, Kerri. >> I tried it again, and was able to answer two questions. After the >> second question, something wierd popped up. The Jaws didn't read it, >> but my brother told me that it was wanting me to install some new >> updates to Windows. I don't think my computer has enough memory to >> keep installing updates. If I don't, the Jaws stops working, >> altogether. What do I do? I'm tired of this mess! To quote David >> Crowder, (Contemporary Christian artist,) "Technology is a killer." >> Blessings, and thanks for your help. >> Joshua >> >> On 3/17/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>> Hi Josh: >>> >>> What version of Blackboard is your school using? >>> >>> I believe the latest version, 9.1 is accessible but if it's a previous >>> version than 9.1 it may not be fully accessible. >>> >>> Hope that helps! >>> >>> Kerri >>> >>> On 3/17/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> Hi, it's Joshua Lester. >>>> I thought that the NFB had already worked everything out with >>>> Blackboard. Well, it's acting up. I can log in, go to my courses, >>>> click course content, and go to my assignment. When I go to begin, >>>> that's when the trouble starts. The Jaws won't read the assignments to >>>> me. I'm trying to complete my study guide, for bonus points. Our test >>>> is this afternoon, so I need help ASAP! I had the assignment printed >>>> out, but something came up, so my work-study and i couldn't work. >>>> Thanks for your help. Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/herekittykat2%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Check out my blog about accessibility for the blind! > Treasure Chest for the Blind: http://blindtreasurechest.blogspot.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 13:04:41 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:04:41 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com>, , , , , , <1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com> Message-ID: Ignasi, The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and Sites and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out their platforms. The press release could have been written a little better to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. Kirt, I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under the sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, I'm not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. Jorge, If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't attract it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, educational institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, it files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes its opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. There are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. Anyway, just my thoughts, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Ignasi Cambra Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when you log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but there is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You can navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client such as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's actually not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs site itself is not accessible. On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, wrote: > My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and text! > You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite frustrating. > Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software to communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > > Hello All, > > I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true because my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to all students. > > Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. > > Elizabeth > > >> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >> > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >> > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >> > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >> > google and offer to help with that process? >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Jorge Paez" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >> > complaint >> > >> > >> > I don't know, >> > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >> > this very list about >> > precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >> > >> > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >> > get attention. >> > >> > And get attention for what exactly? >> > >> > Jorge >> > >> > >> > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> > >> >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >> >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >> >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >> >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >> >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >> >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >> >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >> >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >> >> add events etc. >> >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >> >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >> >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >> >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >> >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >> >> it...!! >> >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >> >> >>> Precisely my thoughts. >> >>> >> >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >> >>> >> >>> Or Google? >> >>> >> >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >> >>> that problem. >> >>> >> >>> Just my thoughts. >> >>> >> >>> Jorge >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hello, >> >>>> >> >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >> >>>> innovated and >> >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >> >>>> works, but >> >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >> >>>> doing >> >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >> >>>> getting >> >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >> >>>> companies are >> >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >> >>>> to work on >> >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks. >> >>>> >> >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >> >>>>> filed regarding >> >>>>> universities using Google Apps. >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >> >>>>>> the rest isn't. >> >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >> >>>>> yet), >> >>>>> >> >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >> >>>>> everything be >> >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >> >>>>> are we complaining >> >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >> >>>>> potentially pose >> >>>>> problems? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Jorge >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>> info for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. com >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Nimer M. Jaber >> >>>> >> >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >> >>>> was sent. >> >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >> >>>> please notify >> >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >> >>>> Action taken >> >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >> >>>> recipient >> >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >> >>>> files on my >> >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >> >>>> responsible >> >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >> >>>> instructions >> >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >> >>>> to you. >> >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >> >>>> with these >> >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >> >>>> all copies >> >>>> of this email from your computer. >> >>>> >> >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >> >>>> http://counter.li.org/ >> >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >> >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >> >>>> system, >> >>>> please click here: >> >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >> >>>> >> >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >> >>>> windows XP >> >>>> and above, please click here: >> >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >> >>>> >> >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >> >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >> >>>> >> >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >> >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>> info for nabs-l: >> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>> info for nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> nabs-l mailing list >> >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >> info for nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 gmail.com >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > nabs-l mailing list >> > nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl ink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 13:42:26 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:42:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com>, , , , , , <1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com> Message-ID: <897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com> Joe, Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The press release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from the fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... IC On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: > Ignasi, > > The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, > Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are > leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to > communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and Sites > and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational > field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out > their platforms. The press release could have been written a little better > to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than > the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. > > Kirt, > > I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to > understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under the > sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most > immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the > leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of > studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, I'm > not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. > > Jorge, > > If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't attract > it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, educational > institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into > something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, it > files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes its > opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. There > are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. > > Anyway, just my thoughts, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for > opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when you > log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but there > is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different > version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You can > navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. > If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client such > as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! > The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big > problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's actually > not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve > Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs site > itself is not accessible. > On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, > wrote: > >> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is > trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and > text! >> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite > frustrating. >> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software to > communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> >> Hello All, >> >> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from > my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some > colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true because > my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and > somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as such > is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to > go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in > what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic > information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or > university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to > all students. >> >> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >> >> Elizabeth >> >> >>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>> complaint >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know, >>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>> this very list about >>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>> >>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>> get attention. >>>> >>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>> add events etc. >>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>> it...!! >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>> >>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>> >>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>> that problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jorge >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>> doing >>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>> getting >>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. > com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>> with these >>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>> system, >>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 > gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. > com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl > ink.net >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From alexandera.castillo at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 14:01:11 2011 From: alexandera.castillo at gmail.com (Alexander Castillo) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:01:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google aps and accessibility? Message-ID: Hi all, the complaint is being make in regard to universities using Google aps as their means of virtual interaction in the classroom. In the same way Blackboard was not accessible some years ago, many of the Google applications are not accessible as well. It was mentioned that the aps work with screen readers such as NVDA. Last time I checked, the Spreadsheet or the standard email did not work well with these. And many of the document features are also not accessible. Google also has an app similar to Blackboard which many schools are implementing and again, it does not appear to be accessible. >From personal experience, I have had very limited access to most of the Google Docs features, and have had to use alternative ways of receiving the same information as the people I was working with. The most essential of these, was the ability to edit documents in real-time, which is one of the most basic and most important of these features. Schools cannot use means of electronic communication, or technology which exclude part of their student body based on disability. This would be considered discrimination. This is the case that we are once again making. We are not saying that Google should make all of their products accessible. We are saying that if they are being used in universities, then hey should be required to be accessible, otherwise, they should not be used. Thanks for reading, Alex From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 14:35:20 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 08:35:20 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com> <897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Joe, All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small affair. Best, Kirt On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Joe, > Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the > complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The press > release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and > calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about > those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from the > fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the > complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate > information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... > > IC > On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: > >> Ignasi, >> >> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to >> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and Sites >> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out >> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >> better >> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than >> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >> >> Kirt, >> >> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under >> the >> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most >> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of >> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, >> I'm >> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >> >> Jorge, >> >> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >> attract >> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, educational >> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into >> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, >> it >> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes >> its >> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >> There >> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >> >> Anyway, just my thoughts, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Ignasi Cambra >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for >> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when >> you >> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >> there >> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different >> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >> can >> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >> such >> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big >> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >> actually >> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve >> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >> site >> itself is not accessible. >> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >> wrote: >> >>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is >> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and >> text! >>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >> frustrating. >>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software to >> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from >> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >> because >> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >> such >> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to >> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in >> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to >> all students. >>> >>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>> >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>> complaint >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know, >>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>> this very list about >>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>> >>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>> get attention. >>>>> >>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>> >>>>> Jorge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>> it...!! >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >> com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >> gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >> com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 14:59:26 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:59:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com><1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com><897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for a plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same wrongdoing. Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate other universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to work with Google to make the apps more accessible. There are multiple benefits that come from filing complaints. The complaint itself is only the foundation for the type of change that may evolve. Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Kirt Manwaring Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Joe, All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small affair. Best, Kirt On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Joe, > Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the > complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The press > release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and > calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about > those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from the > fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the > complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate > information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... > > IC > On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: > >> Ignasi, >> >> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to >> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and Sites >> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out >> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >> better >> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than >> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >> >> Kirt, >> >> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under >> the >> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most >> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of >> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, >> I'm >> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >> >> Jorge, >> >> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >> attract >> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, educational >> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into >> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, >> it >> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes >> its >> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >> There >> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >> >> Anyway, just my thoughts, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Ignasi Cambra >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for >> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when >> you >> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >> there >> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different >> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >> can >> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >> such >> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big >> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >> actually >> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve >> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >> site >> itself is not accessible. >> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >> wrote: >> >>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is >> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and >> text! >>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >> frustrating. >>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software to >> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from >> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >> because >> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >> such >> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to >> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in >> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to >> all students. >>> >>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>> >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>> complaint >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know, >>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>> this very list about >>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>> >>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>> get attention. >>>>> >>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>> >>>>> Jorge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>> it...!! >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >> com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >> gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >> com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma il.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com From nabs.president at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 15:52:56 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 09:52:56 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com> <897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com> <3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> Message-ID: Hi all, Does Google Calendar have a basic html option? If not, how do you access it with JAWS? Arielle On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for a > plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same wrongdoing. > Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate other > universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to work > with Google to make the apps more accessible. There are multiple benefits > that come from filing complaints. The complaint itself is only the > foundation for the type of change that may evolve. > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > Joe, > All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. > The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being > investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, > and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring > limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out > of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, > but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small > affair. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> Joe, >> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the >> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The > press >> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and >> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about >> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from > the >> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the >> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate >> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... >> >> IC >> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: >> >>> Ignasi, >>> >>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >>> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to >>> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and > Sites >>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out >>> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >>> better >>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than >>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >>> >>> Kirt, >>> >>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under >>> the >>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most >>> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of >>> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, >>> I'm >>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >>> >>> Jorge, >>> >>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >>> attract >>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, > educational >>> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into >>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, >>> it >>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes >>> its >>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >>> There >>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >>> >>> Anyway, just my thoughts, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their > sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for >>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when >>> you >>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >>> there >>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different >>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >>> can >>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >>> such >>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big >>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >>> actually >>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve >>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >>> site >>> itself is not accessible. >>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >>> wrote: >>> >>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is >>> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and >>> text! >>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >>> frustrating. >>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software > to >>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> >>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know > from >>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>> because >>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >>> such >>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing > to >>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice > in >>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible > to >>> all students. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> >>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>> >>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>> complaint >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know, >>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>>> this very list about >>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>>> >>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>>> get attention. >>>>>> >>>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jorge >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>>> it...!! >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >>> com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >>> gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >>> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >>> ink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 16:02:13 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:02:13 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google Calendar In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com><1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com><897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com><3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> Message-ID: Hi Arielle, I don't know that Google Calendar is the most accessible feature on the web interface. There's a big difference anyway between the accessibility of GMail versus Google Calendar. I personally use Google Sync to link my Outlook Calendar with Google Calendar, which in turn automatically syncs with my Windows phone and iPod Touch. So far, I must say the iPod Touch has the most kick ass way of navigating a calendar I've ever seen. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:nabs.president at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:53 AM To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Hi all, Does Google Calendar have a basic html option? If not, how do you access it with JAWS? Arielle On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for a > plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same wrongdoing. > Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate other > universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to work > with Google to make the apps more accessible. There are multiple benefits > that come from filing complaints. The complaint itself is only the > foundation for the type of change that may evolve. > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > Joe, > All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. > The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being > investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, > and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring > limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out > of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, > but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small > affair. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> Joe, >> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the >> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The > press >> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and >> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about >> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from > the >> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the >> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate >> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... >> >> IC >> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: >> >>> Ignasi, >>> >>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >>> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to >>> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and > Sites >>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out >>> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >>> better >>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than >>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >>> >>> Kirt, >>> >>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under >>> the >>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most >>> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of >>> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, >>> I'm >>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >>> >>> Jorge, >>> >>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >>> attract >>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, > educational >>> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into >>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, >>> it >>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes >>> its >>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >>> There >>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >>> >>> Anyway, just my thoughts, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their > sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for >>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when >>> you >>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >>> there >>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different >>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >>> can >>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >>> such >>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big >>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >>> actually >>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve >>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >>> site >>> itself is not accessible. >>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >>> wrote: >>> >>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is >>> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and >>> text! >>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >>> frustrating. >>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software > to >>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> >>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know > from >>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>> because >>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >>> such >>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing > to >>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice > in >>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible > to >>> all students. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> >>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>> >>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>> complaint >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know, >>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>>> this very list about >>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>>> >>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>>> get attention. >>>>>> >>>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jorge >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>>> it...!! >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >>> com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >>> gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >>> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >>> ink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma il.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From trillian551 at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 16:05:27 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:05:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com> <897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com> <3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> Message-ID: `And so the controversy continues. It seems ironic that the student body, for which this complaint has been filed in the first place, is so divided. Here is what i think. Accessibility not only means that you can use google calendar only if you have a mac. I just recently switched over to a mac, and still use Jaws on a day to day basis in my research job, because it works better with the software I'm required to use. Accessibility, means that app, prorams etc. are universal. Ashley seems to be having trouble with her school's communicational software which is based on the google platform. The educational package does not look like your normal gmail. The platform we use at Emory, has a web version, however, the features are incredibly limitted to the software everyone else gets to use. In fact, the web version is meant to be used as a temporary, or on the go usage. The designers understood that was limitted, but didn't care, because most people never even use it, unless they are in someone else's computer and dont have the installed software that first class has. I, on hte other hand, use the web version, all the time, and do noteven have the choice of having the full program installed, since it's totally unaccessible. In addition, someone pointed out that colleges have a choice of what platforms they use. And that is the key here. why, would you choose to use a platform that is not accessible to everyone And by everyone, we mean, those who use Jaws, Window Eyes, Zoom Text, Mac and whatever other screen reading software there is out there. I am personally a huge fan of Google Chat, but it's a pain in the butt to use. I have to use my jaws cursor to get it to read messages, and in my mac, I have to use the web version. I never figured out how to use google calendar on windows, and forget google docs. Yeah, you could, if you decide to spend 12000 on a computer, get a mac, learn an entirely different operating system, and use through the mac apps, the google apps, but honestly,sighted students don't have todo that, why should we? Educational institutions usually seek to find technologies that supplement students' learning, not to make their lives harder by them trying tofigure out how to click on something so they get the result they wan. By having apps that are so much more difficult for a blind student to use, you are not on equal footing. You cannot compete fairly with your peers academically, if you have to spend 15 exra minutes, everytime you log on to your email, to dowload something your professor sent. I'm not going toeven address the attention seeking laims that have been made, except to say that if the NFB was not as fearless to address real issues that present barriers for blind individuals to become first class citizens then we would not even be having this conversation. Sincerely, Mary Fernandez On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for a > plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same wrongdoing. > Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate other > universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to work > with Google to make the apps more accessible. There are multiple benefits > that come from filing complaints. The complaint itself is only the > foundation for the type of change that may evolve. > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Kirt Manwaring > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > Joe, > All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. > The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being > investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, > and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring > limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out > of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, > but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small > affair. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> Joe, >> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the >> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The > press >> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and >> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about >> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from > the >> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the >> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate >> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... >> >> IC >> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: >> >>> Ignasi, >>> >>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >>> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to >>> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and > Sites >>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out >>> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >>> better >>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than >>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >>> >>> Kirt, >>> >>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under >>> the >>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most >>> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of >>> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, >>> I'm >>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >>> >>> Jorge, >>> >>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >>> attract >>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, > educational >>> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into >>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, >>> it >>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes >>> its >>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >>> There >>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >>> >>> Anyway, just my thoughts, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their > sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for >>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when >>> you >>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >>> there >>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different >>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >>> can >>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >>> such >>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big >>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >>> actually >>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve >>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >>> site >>> itself is not accessible. >>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >>> wrote: >>> >>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is >>> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and >>> text! >>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >>> frustrating. >>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software > to >>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> >>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know > from >>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>> because >>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >>> such >>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing > to >>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice > in >>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible > to >>> all students. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> >>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>> >>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>> complaint >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know, >>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>>> this very list about >>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>>> >>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>>> get attention. >>>>>> >>>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jorge >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>>> it...!! >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >>> com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >>> gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >>> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >>> ink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail > .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma > il.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From nabs.president at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 16:08:49 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 10:08:49 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Google Calendar In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com> <897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com> <3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> Message-ID: Hi Joe and all, Is it possible to keep track of other people's calendars using the Outlook sync work-around you describe? If not, this still can present an accessibility barrier in some workplace situations and perhaps academic situations as well. For example, my lab uses Google Calendar to coordinate all of our schedules and come up with times when everyone can meet, etc. I could see this presenting a real problem for university faculty at schools where Google Calendar is used as the primary means of scheduling meetings, work assignments, etc. Arielle On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Hi Arielle, > > I don't know that Google Calendar is the most accessible feature on the web > interface. There's a big difference anyway between the accessibility of > GMail versus Google Calendar. I personally use Google Sync to link my > Outlook Calendar with Google Calendar, which in turn automatically syncs > with my Windows phone and iPod Touch. So far, I must say the iPod Touch has > the most kick ass way of navigating a calendar I've ever seen. > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:nabs.president at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:53 AM > To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > Hi all, > > Does Google Calendar have a basic html option? If not, how do you > access it with JAWS? > > Arielle > > On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for a >> plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same > wrongdoing. >> Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate > other >> universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to work >> with Google to make the apps more accessible. There are multiple benefits >> that come from filing complaints. The complaint itself is only the >> foundation for the type of change that may evolve. >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf >> Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> Joe, >> All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. >> The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being >> investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, >> and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring >> limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out >> of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, >> but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small >> affair. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> Joe, >>> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the >>> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The >> press >>> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and >>> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about >>> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from >> the >>> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the >>> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate >>> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... >>> >>> IC >>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> >>>> Ignasi, >>>> >>>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >>>> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >>>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to >>>> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and >> Sites >>>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >>>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch > out >>>> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >>>> better >>>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration > than >>>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >>>> >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >>>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under >>>> the >>>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the > most >>>> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >>>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of >>>> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, >>>> I'm >>>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >>>> >>>> Jorge, >>>> >>>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >>>> attract >>>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, >> educational >>>> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered > into >>>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, >>>> it >>>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes >>>> its >>>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >>>> There >>>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >>>> >>>> Anyway, just my thoughts, >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >> sleeves, >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even > for >>>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when >>>> you >>>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >>>> there >>>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different >>>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >>>> can >>>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >>>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >>>> such >>>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >>>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big >>>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >>>> actually >>>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to > retrieve >>>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >>>> site >>>> itself is not accessible. >>>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is >>>> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links > and >>>> text! >>>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >>>> frustrating. >>>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software >> to >>>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello All, >>>>> >>>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know >> from >>>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>>> because >>>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >>>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >>>> such >>>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing >> to >>>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice >> in >>>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >>>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >>>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible >> to >>>> all students. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>>> >>>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>>> complaint >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know, >>>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>>>> this very list about >>>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>>>> get attention. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>>>> it...!! >>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >>>> gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >>>> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >>>> ink.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma > il.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 16:18:18 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:18:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google Calendar In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com><1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com><897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com><3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> Message-ID: <10B706F9B4AF4B279C9FAEAAD176BD7B@Rufus> I've never tried sharing calendars with the plug-in I found. I think it might be possible if people are using the same calendar since the data will populate across everyone's devices, but I'm pretty sure that what you're talking about is more along the lines of people having the ability to maintain their own calendars but make the data visible to others upon request. This is easy to do with Outlook by itself, but I don't know how accessibility would work with Google Calendar for this task. I'll poke around and bring back news if I find anything useful. Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:nabs.president at gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:09 PM To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google Calendar Hi Joe and all, Is it possible to keep track of other people's calendars using the Outlook sync work-around you describe? If not, this still can present an accessibility barrier in some workplace situations and perhaps academic situations as well. For example, my lab uses Google Calendar to coordinate all of our schedules and come up with times when everyone can meet, etc. I could see this presenting a real problem for university faculty at schools where Google Calendar is used as the primary means of scheduling meetings, work assignments, etc. Arielle On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Hi Arielle, > > I don't know that Google Calendar is the most accessible feature on the web > interface. There's a big difference anyway between the accessibility of > GMail versus Google Calendar. I personally use Google Sync to link my > Outlook Calendar with Google Calendar, which in turn automatically syncs > with my Windows phone and iPod Touch. So far, I must say the iPod Touch has > the most kick ass way of navigating a calendar I've ever seen. > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:nabs.president at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:53 AM > To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > Hi all, > > Does Google Calendar have a basic html option? If not, how do you > access it with JAWS? > > Arielle > > On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for a >> plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same > wrongdoing. >> Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate > other >> universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to work >> with Google to make the apps more accessible. There are multiple benefits >> that come from filing complaints. The complaint itself is only the >> foundation for the type of change that may evolve. >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf >> Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> Joe, >> All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. >> The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being >> investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, >> and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring >> limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out >> of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, >> but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small >> affair. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> Joe, >>> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the >>> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The >> press >>> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and >>> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about >>> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from >> the >>> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the >>> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate >>> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... >>> >>> IC >>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> >>>> Ignasi, >>>> >>>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >>>> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >>>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to >>>> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and >> Sites >>>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >>>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch > out >>>> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >>>> better >>>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration > than >>>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >>>> >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >>>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under >>>> the >>>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the > most >>>> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >>>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of >>>> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, >>>> I'm >>>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >>>> >>>> Jorge, >>>> >>>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >>>> attract >>>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, >> educational >>>> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered > into >>>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, >>>> it >>>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes >>>> its >>>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >>>> There >>>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >>>> >>>> Anyway, just my thoughts, >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >> sleeves, >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even > for >>>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when >>>> you >>>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >>>> there >>>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different >>>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >>>> can >>>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >>>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >>>> such >>>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >>>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big >>>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >>>> actually >>>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to > retrieve >>>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >>>> site >>>> itself is not accessible. >>>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is >>>> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links > and >>>> text! >>>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >>>> frustrating. >>>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software >> to >>>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello All, >>>>> >>>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know >> from >>>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>>> because >>>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >>>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >>>> such >>>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing >> to >>>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice >> in >>>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >>>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >>>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible >> to >>>> all students. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>>> >>>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>>> complaint >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know, >>>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>>>> this very list about >>>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>>>> get attention. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>>>> it...!! >>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >>>> gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >>>> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >>>> ink.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma > il.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma il.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 17:46:34 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 12:46:34 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Check out my newest blog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, Please check out my newest blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/2011/03/17/fighting-food-instead-of-di sease/ Happy St. Patty's Day. Bridgit From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 17:56:12 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:56:12 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google Calendar In-Reply-To: <10B706F9B4AF4B279C9FAEAAD176BD7B@Rufus> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com><1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com><897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com><3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> <10B706F9B4AF4B279C9FAEAAD176BD7B@Rufus> Message-ID: Hello, My piano professor used to have a google calendar to organize his lessons. He shared his calendar with all of us and wrote the word "teach" on all available time slots. For each week, we could just go online and sign up for lesson. I can confirm that this is accessible under Mac OS X without any workarounds. I can read shared calendars and edit them if I have permission to do so. I don't know about Windows screen readers though. IC On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:18 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: > I've never tried sharing calendars with the plug-in I found. I think it > might be possible if people are using the same calendar since the data will > populate across everyone's devices, but I'm pretty sure that what you're > talking about is more along the lines of people having the ability to > maintain their own calendars but make the data visible to others upon > request. This is easy to do with Outlook by itself, but I don't know how > accessibility would work with Google Calendar for this task. I'll poke > around and bring back news if I find anything useful. > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:nabs.president at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:09 PM > To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google Calendar > > Hi Joe and all, > Is it possible to keep track of other people's calendars using the > Outlook sync work-around you describe? If not, this still can present > an accessibility barrier in some workplace situations and perhaps > academic situations as well. For example, my lab uses Google Calendar > to coordinate all of our schedules and come up with times when > everyone can meet, etc. I could see this presenting a real problem for > university faculty at schools where Google Calendar is used as the > primary means of scheduling meetings, work assignments, etc. > > Arielle > > On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Hi Arielle, >> >> I don't know that Google Calendar is the most accessible feature on the > web >> interface. There's a big difference anyway between the accessibility of >> GMail versus Google Calendar. I personally use Google Sync to link my >> Outlook Calendar with Google Calendar, which in turn automatically syncs >> with my Windows phone and iPod Touch. So far, I must say the iPod Touch > has >> the most kick ass way of navigating a calendar I've ever seen. >> >> Best, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:nabs.president at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:53 AM >> To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> Hi all, >> >> Does Google Calendar have a basic html option? If not, how do you >> access it with JAWS? >> >> Arielle >> >> On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for > a >>> plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same >> wrongdoing. >>> Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate >> other >>> universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to > work >>> with Google to make the apps more accessible. There are multiple > benefits >>> that come from filing complaints. The complaint itself is only the >>> foundation for the type of change that may evolve. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their > sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> Joe, >>> All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. >>> The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being >>> investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, >>> and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring >>> limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out >>> of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, >>> but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small >>> affair. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>> Joe, >>>> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the >>>> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The >>> press >>>> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and >>>> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain > about >>>> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from >>> the >>>> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the >>>> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate >>>> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... >>>> >>>> IC >>>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ignasi, >>>>> >>>>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >>>>> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >>>>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way > to >>>>> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and >>> Sites >>>>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >>>>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch >> out >>>>> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >>>>> better >>>>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration >> than >>>>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >>>>> >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> >>>>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >>>>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone > under >>>>> the >>>>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the >> most >>>>> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >>>>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality > of >>>>> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student > list, >>>>> I'm >>>>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >>>>> >>>>> Jorge, >>>>> >>>>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >>>>> attract >>>>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, >>> educational >>>>> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered >> into >>>>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited > funds, >>>>> it >>>>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it > hopes >>>>> its >>>>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >>>>> There >>>>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, just my thoughts, >>>>> >>>>> Joe >>>>> >>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>> sleeves, >>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>> >>>>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even >> for >>>>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up > when >>>>> you >>>>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >>>>> there >>>>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a > different >>>>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >>>>> can >>>>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >>>>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >>>>> such >>>>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >>>>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only > big >>>>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >>>>> actually >>>>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to >> retrieve >>>>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >>>>> site >>>>> itself is not accessible. >>>>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate > is >>>>> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links >> and >>>>> text! >>>>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >>>>> frustrating. >>>>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software >>> to >>>>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello All, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know >>> from >>>>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>>>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>>>> because >>>>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >>>>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >>>>> such >>>>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing >>> to >>>>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice >>> in >>>>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >>>>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >>>>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible >>> to >>>>> all students. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>>>>> >>>>>> Elizabeth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps > complaint >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>>>> complaint >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know, >>>>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>>>>> this very list about >>>>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>>>>> get attention. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>>>>> it...!! >>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> 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http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >>>>> ink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma >> il.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Arielle Silverman >> President, National Association of Blind Students >> Phone: 602-502-2255 >> Email: >> nabs.president at gmail.com >> Website: >> www.nabslink.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma > il.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From nimerjaber1 at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 18:01:49 2011 From: nimerjaber1 at gmail.com (Nimer Jaber) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:01:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Google Calendar In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com> <897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com> <3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> <10B706F9B4AF4B279C9FAEAAD176BD7B@Rufus> Message-ID: Hello, This is accessible. Google Calendaring works just fine when aria is enabled so long as your screen reader supports aria. there are some screen readers out on the market that do not as of yet support this yet. Thanks Nimer J On 17/03/2011, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Hello, > My piano professor used to have a google calendar to organize his lessons. > He shared his calendar with all of us and wrote the word "teach" on all > available time slots. For each week, we could just go online and sign up for > lesson. I can confirm that this is accessible under Mac OS X without any > workarounds. I can read shared calendars and edit them if I have permission > to do so. I don't know about Windows screen readers though. > > IC > On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:18 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: > >> I've never tried sharing calendars with the plug-in I found. I think it >> might be possible if people are using the same calendar since the data >> will >> populate across everyone's devices, but I'm pretty sure that what you're >> talking about is more along the lines of people having the ability to >> maintain their own calendars but make the data visible to others upon >> request. This is easy to do with Outlook by itself, but I don't know how >> accessibility would work with Google Calendar for this task. I'll poke >> around and bring back news if I find anything useful. >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:nabs.president at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:09 PM >> To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google Calendar >> >> Hi Joe and all, >> Is it possible to keep track of other people's calendars using the >> Outlook sync work-around you describe? If not, this still can present >> an accessibility barrier in some workplace situations and perhaps >> academic situations as well. For example, my lab uses Google Calendar >> to coordinate all of our schedules and come up with times when >> everyone can meet, etc. I could see this presenting a real problem for >> university faculty at schools where Google Calendar is used as the >> primary means of scheduling meetings, work assignments, etc. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> Hi Arielle, >>> >>> I don't know that Google Calendar is the most accessible feature on the >> web >>> interface. There's a big difference anyway between the accessibility of >>> GMail versus Google Calendar. I personally use Google Sync to link my >>> Outlook Calendar with Google Calendar, which in turn automatically syncs >>> with my Windows phone and iPod Touch. So far, I must say the iPod Touch >> has >>> the most kick ass way of navigating a calendar I've ever seen. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>> sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:nabs.president at gmail.com] >>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:53 AM >>> To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing >> list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> Hi all, >>> >>> Does Google Calendar have a basic html option? If not, how do you >>> access it with JAWS? >>> >>> Arielle >>> >>> On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>> Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for >> a >>>> plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same >>> wrongdoing. >>>> Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate >>> other >>>> universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to >> work >>>> with Google to make the apps more accessible. There are multiple >> benefits >>>> that come from filing complaints. The complaint itself is only the >>>> foundation for the type of change that may evolve. >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >> sleeves, >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> Joe, >>>> All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. >>>> The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being >>>> investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, >>>> and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring >>>> limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out >>>> of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, >>>> but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small >>>> affair. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>> Joe, >>>>> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the >>>>> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The >>>> press >>>>> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and >>>>> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain >> about >>>>> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from >>>> the >>>>> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what >>>>> the >>>>> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate >>>>> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... >>>>> >>>>> IC >>>>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Ignasi, >>>>>> >>>>>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >>>>>> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >>>>>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way >> to >>>>>> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and >>>> Sites >>>>>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the >>>>>> educational >>>>>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch >>> out >>>>>> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >>>>>> better >>>>>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration >>> than >>>>>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kirt, >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >>>>>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone >> under >>>>>> the >>>>>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the >>> most >>>>>> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >>>>>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality >> of >>>>>> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student >> list, >>>>>> I'm >>>>>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jorge, >>>>>> >>>>>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >>>>>> attract >>>>>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, >>>> educational >>>>>> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered >>> into >>>>>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited >> funds, >>>>>> it >>>>>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it >> hopes >>>>>> its >>>>>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >>>>>> There >>>>>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >>>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, just my thoughts, >>>>>> >>>>>> Joe >>>>>> >>>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>> sleeves, >>>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>>> Behalf >>>>>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>>> >>>>>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even >>> for >>>>>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up >> when >>>>>> you >>>>>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >>>>>> there >>>>>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a >> different >>>>>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. >>>>>> You >>>>>> can >>>>>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >>>>>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >>>>>> such >>>>>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >>>>>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only >> big >>>>>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >>>>>> actually >>>>>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to >>> retrieve >>>>>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >>>>>> site >>>>>> itself is not accessible. >>>>>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate >> is >>>>>> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links >>> and >>>>>> text! >>>>>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >>>>>> frustrating. >>>>>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing >>>>>>> software >>>> to >>>>>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>>> complaint >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello All, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know >>>> from >>>>>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>>>>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>>>>> because >>>>>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >>>>>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >>>>>> such >>>>>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is >>>>>> choosing >>>> to >>>>>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a >>>>>> choice >>>> in >>>>>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >>>>>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college >>>>>> or >>>>>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are >>>>>> accessible >>>> to >>>>>> all students. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Elizabeth >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>>>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >> complaint >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>>>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>>>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>>>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>>>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>>>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>>>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>>>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>>>>> complaint >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I don't know, >>>>>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>>>>>> this very list about >>>>>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>>>>>> get attention. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>>>>>> it...!! >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l 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options or get your account info >> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>>> il.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >>>>>> com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >>>>>> ink.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>>>> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>> il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma >>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Arielle Silverman >>> President, National Association of Blind Students >>> Phone: 602-502-2255 >>> Email: >>> nabs.president at gmail.com >>> Website: >>> www.nabslink.org >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma >> il.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Arielle Silverman >> President, National Association of Blind Students >> Phone: 602-502-2255 >> Email: >> nabs.president at gmail.com >> Website: >> www.nabslink.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > -- Nimer M. Jaber The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email from your computer. Registered Linux User 529141. http://counter.li.org/ Vinux testing and documentation coordinator To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: http://nimertech.blogspot.com Phone: (720) (251-4530) Please reply to this email to contact me. From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 18:06:34 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:06:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com> <897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com> <3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> Message-ID: <7A7A6C98-4946-4A34-9B76-7FAE088C0F42@gmail.com> Mary, You can use google chat from the iChat app on Mac OS X. Actually, you can use iChat to connect to Facebook chat and lots of other services too. It's 100% accessible with VoiceOver. Hope it helps... IC On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:05 PM, Mary Fernandez wrote: > `And so the controversy continues. It seems ironic that the student > body, for which this complaint has been filed in the first place, is > so divided. Here is what i think. > Accessibility not only means that you can use google calendar only if > you have a mac. I just recently switched over to a mac, and still use > Jaws on a day to day basis in my research job, because it works better > with the software I'm required to use. Accessibility, means that app, > prorams etc. are universal. Ashley seems to be having trouble with her > school's communicational software which is based on the google > platform. The educational package does not look like your normal > gmail. The platform we use at Emory, has a web version, however, the > features are incredibly limitted to the software everyone else gets to > use. In fact, the web version is meant to be used as a temporary, or > on the go usage. The designers understood that was limitted, but > didn't care, because most people never even use it, unless they are in > someone else's computer and dont have the installed software that > first class has. I, on hte other hand, use the web version, all the > time, and do noteven have the choice of having the full program > installed, since it's totally unaccessible. > In addition, someone pointed out that colleges have a choice of what > platforms they use. And that is the key here. why, would you choose > to use a platform that is not accessible to everyone And by everyone, > we mean, those who use Jaws, Window Eyes, Zoom Text, Mac and whatever > other screen reading software there is out there. I am personally a > huge fan of Google Chat, but it's a pain in the butt to use. I have to > use my jaws cursor to get it to read messages, and in my mac, I have > to use the web version. I never figured out how to use google > calendar on windows, and forget google docs. Yeah, you could, if you > decide to spend 12000 on a computer, get a mac, learn an entirely > different operating system, and use through the mac apps, the google > apps, but honestly,sighted students don't have todo that, why should > we? > Educational institutions usually seek to find technologies that > supplement students' learning, not to make their lives harder by them > trying tofigure out how to click on something so they get the result > they wan. By having apps that are so much more difficult for a blind > student to use, you are not on equal footing. You cannot compete > fairly with your peers academically, if you have to spend 15 exra > minutes, everytime you log on to your email, to dowload something your > professor sent. > I'm not going toeven address the attention seeking laims that have > been made, except to say that if the NFB was not as fearless to > address real issues that present barriers for blind individuals to > become first class citizens then we would not even be having this > conversation. > Sincerely, > Mary Fernandez > > On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for a >> plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same wrongdoing. >> Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate other >> universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to work >> with Google to make the apps more accessible. There are multiple benefits >> that come from filing complaints. The complaint itself is only the >> foundation for the type of change that may evolve. >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> Joe, >> All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. >> The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being >> investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, >> and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring >> limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out >> of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, >> but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small >> affair. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> Joe, >>> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the >>> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The >> press >>> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and >>> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about >>> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from >> the >>> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the >>> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate >>> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... >>> >>> IC >>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> >>>> Ignasi, >>>> >>>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >>>> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >>>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to >>>> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and >> Sites >>>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >>>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out >>>> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >>>> better >>>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than >>>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >>>> >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >>>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under >>>> the >>>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most >>>> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >>>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of >>>> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, >>>> I'm >>>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >>>> >>>> Jorge, >>>> >>>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >>>> attract >>>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, >> educational >>>> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into >>>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, >>>> it >>>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes >>>> its >>>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >>>> There >>>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >>>> >>>> Anyway, just my thoughts, >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >> sleeves, >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for >>>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when >>>> you >>>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >>>> there >>>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different >>>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >>>> can >>>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >>>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >>>> such >>>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >>>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big >>>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >>>> actually >>>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve >>>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >>>> site >>>> itself is not accessible. >>>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is >>>> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and >>>> text! >>>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >>>> frustrating. >>>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software >> to >>>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello All, >>>>> >>>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know >> from >>>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>>> because >>>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >>>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >>>> such >>>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing >> to >>>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice >> in >>>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >>>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >>>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible >> to >>>> all students. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>>> >>>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>>> complaint >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know, >>>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>>>> this very list about >>>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>>>> get attention. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>>>> it...!! >>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >>>> gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >>>> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >>>> ink.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > President: Georgia Association of Blind Students > Emory University 2012 > P.O. Box 123056 > Atlanta Ga. > 30322 > Phone: 732-857-7004 > > "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much > rather you weren't doing it." > Terry Pratchett > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 18:19:23 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:19:23 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: <002701cbe4cf$d7f8c880$87ea5980$@com> Hi, Alex and Mary have got it pretty much right on point, but I will share a couple brief additional thoughts: We are filing against the academic institutions and not Google itself because the law (ADA and IDEA, I think) have requirements for accessibility for all students. There is no law requiring corporations to make their software products accessible. That is part of what NFB is driving at with the Tech Bill of Rights. The complaints are being filed against the four schools because these schools have actual instances of blind students or faculty not being able to use the applications. You cannot sue or file complaints based on hypothetical situations, there must be actual harm being done to an actual person to have standing. That is my understanding anyway. And, yes, it does set a favorable precedent when we win these cases. Fewer institutions will implement technologies that are inaccessible if they know they are just one lawsuit away from being forced to revamp what they are doing. The idea that this is just some publicity grab, as some might consider the blind driver challenge, of which I myself am skeptical, is inaccurate. This is a case of an organization standing up and taking action to protect the rights of, and increase opportunities for, its membership. This, in my opinion, is some of the bread and butter of what NFB is for. There is nothing wrong with filing lawsuits. That is how laws are given teeth. Laws on the books are useless unless they are enforced, and it is incumbent upon those who want them enforced to ensure that they are. Take care, Sean From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 18:25:55 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:25:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sean, I agree that electronic versions are best, for me. I have control over what I read (pages, paras, sentences, etc.) and I can determine spelling and punctuation. When I have had to cite material from an RFBD book, I have had to ask classmates, or the instructor, for the proper punctuation when I wasn't sure. Like once it was a poem, and I was not sure of the structure. With electronic versions, I can figure this out on my own. Of course not everything scans properly, but I still find it much easier to read and study this way. Since I am a creative writing major, and most my books are literature books, I like to find live audio copies, if possible, to use along with an electronic copy. This way I have the luxury of hearing a live narrator, but I can find passages in the electronic copy for study and citing purposes. Here is my dilemma. The training center I trained at said I should buy each textbook even though there may be audio copies. However, at the current institution, I have been told they can not purchase books if they're already in a format like RFBD or Book Share. Obviously, not have hard copies makes it difficult to scan and have electronic copies. Has anyone experienced this? Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 13:47:45 -0500 From: "Sean Whalen" To: Subject: Re: [nabs-l] skimming Message-ID: <000701cbe40a$a434f110$ec9ed330$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Knowing what to read word by word and what to skim through is in itself a important skill for success. Certainly, sometimes you need to read everything that is written, and other times doing so would be an inefficient use of time. Electronic texts are, to me, vastly superior to audio recordings. Getting print copies of books and articles and scanning them is worthwhile, and will likely end up saving time even once you take scanning and conversion times into account. Control down arrow to move by paragraph is my best friend when simply trying to take in main points. Also, down and right arrow respectively skip by paragraph and sentence when in say all mode. Even if you are reading something in its entirety, e-texts are much quicker. Most JAWS users can listen to content at speeds from 350 to over 600 words per minute. The upper end of that range is significantly faster than most sighted folks can read for full comprehension. In the one graduate level class I took, I scanned all books and articles that were not already available electronically, and in conversations with fellow students I came to find out that I did more reading than most, and did it in less time. I also did a substantial research paper which required skimming through numerous articles to look for relevant material. So, I would suggest, have somebody scan for you, or rip the binding off, run it through a high-speed scanner, and convert with Open Book or the like. Trust me, you will end up ahead of the game in terms of time spent and content absorbed. Sean ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:14:36 -0500 From: "B.J. LeJeune" To: Subject: [nabs-l] Ann Sullivan Macy Research Training Program Message-ID: <4D80D3DC020000F00001CC7E at mailhost.groupwise.msstate.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Applications Invited for Research Training Program Mississippi State University?s Research and Training Center on Blindness and Low Vision (MSU-RTC), an independent center within the College of Education, is seeking a Ph.D. graduate student or post-doctoral candidate as the new Anne Sullivan Macy Scholar beginning in the Fall of 2011 or Spring of 2012. This program honors the unique contribution of Anne Sullivan Macy to the extraordinary educational experience of Helen Keller. A candidate who is blind or visually impaired is preferred, but applicants with significant experience in the blindness field who are not blind or visually impaired will also be considered. Candidates must have or be seeking a Ph.D. in the social sciences (e.g., rehabilitation counseling, psychology, social work, sociology, special education). Since 1981, MSU-RTC?s mission has been to enhance employment and independent living outcomes for individuals who are blind or visually impaired. In keeping with this mission, the goal of this training program is to support development of a scientist-practitioner who is well grounded in state-of-the-science research methods and practices, focused within the field of blindness and low vision. As a post-doctoral position, the program offers salary with full benefits and a tuition waiver for up to six credit hours. A student working toward a Ph.D. receives a full tuition waiver and monthly stipend. In either case, the recipient will participate in ongoing applied research, will have opportunities to participate in knowledge translation activities with professional and consumer advocacy organizations, state vocational rehabilitation agencies for the blind, and will attend regional and national training conferences. The Anne Sullivan Macy Research Training Program was established in 1992, supported in part by funding from the National Institute on Disability and Rehabilitation Research (NIDRR). Previous award recipients have gone on to work as researchers, professors, and administrators. The very first Anne Sullivan Macy Scholar, Dr. Brenda Cavenaugh, served as Interim Director of MSU-RTC from 2007 ? 2010. The current research training program will be funded under MSU-RTC?s current 5-year NIDRR grant: Rehabilitation Research and Training Center (RRTC) on Employment Outcomes for Individuals Who are Blind or Visually Impaired. To learn more and to apply for the Anne Sullivan Macy Research Training Program, visit MSU-RTC?s website at http://www.blind.msstate.edu and select the ?Employment Opportunities? button on the front page. Potential applicants are also encouraged to contact Dr. Michele C. McDonnall, MSU-RTC Interim Director, at (662) 325-2001 or via email at M.Mcdonnall at msstate.edu ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:25:46 -0400 From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Hello fellow NABS members. I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed regarding universities using Google Apps. >From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest >isn't. (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >yet), but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we complaining for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose problems? Thanks, Jorge ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:31:48 -0500 From: Nimer Jaber To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello, Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... Thanks. On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > Hello fellow NABS members. > > I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed > regarding universities using Google Apps. > > >From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest > >isn't. > (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), > > but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > > Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything > be done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we > complaining for simply using inaccessible web applications that could > potentially pose problems? > > > > Thanks, > > Jorge > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40 > gmail.com > -- Nimer M. Jaber The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email from your computer. Registered Linux User 529141. http://counter.li.org/ Vinux testing and documentation coordinator To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: http://nimertech.blogspot.com Phone: (720) (251-4530) Please reply to this email to contact me. ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:34:30 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] skimming Message-ID: <4E6BC242984B4E508A8A04CE4F6CA1BF at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi all, There is a place for both skimming and reading word by word. One major factor is time. Antonio, I know how you feel. I caught a bad cold some semesters and fell behind my peers and like you needed to catch up fast with hundreds of pages. I will write more later. I also use RFB a lot as my primary choice, just as you're doing. Most say electronic text is faster/easier. For me its not. I can speed up the audio speech. While I can listen to jaws fast, I can't learn well by speeding through it as I cannot take notes efficiently when I'm expending the energy to understand jaws at a faster speed. I read email/internet stuff faster, but processing everything is not so essential then. Antonio, I'll write more tips later. As Sean said, skimming by paragraph in electronic text is a good idea. If you know the exact word and its spelling you can also search for it by Control F. For RFB, I have not found a good solution. Here is a few thoughts. 1. If the reader starts describing graphs or tables/illustrations you don't need, skip to the next page. 2. If you're pressed for time, reading segments helps. I mean the first few pages. Then maybe five middle pages and the end of the chapter. Many books have a summary and list of key concepts or objectives. Read those summaries; I find they well paraphrase main points. Good luck. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Sean Whalen Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 2:47 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] skimming Knowing what to read word by word and what to skim through is in itself a important skill for success. Certainly, sometimes you need to read everything that is written, and other times doing so would be an inefficient use of time. Electronic texts are, to me, vastly superior to audio recordings. Getting print copies of books and articles and scanning them is worthwhile, and will likely end up saving time even once you take scanning and conversion times into account. Control down arrow to move by paragraph is my best friend when simply trying to take in main points. Also, down and right arrow respectively skip by paragraph and sentence when in say all mode. Even if you are reading something in its entirety, e-texts are much quicker. Most JAWS users can listen to content at speeds from 350 to over 600 words per minute. The upper end of that range is significantly faster than most sighted folks can read for full comprehension. In the one graduate level class I took, I scanned all books and articles that were not already available electronically, and in conversations with fellow students I came to find out that I did more reading than most, and did it in less time. I also did a substantial research paper which required skimming through numerous articles to look for relevant material. So, I would suggest, have somebody scan for you, or rip the binding off, run it through a high-speed scanner, and convert with Open Book or the like. Trust me, you will end up ahead of the game in terms of time spent and content absorbed. Sean _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:45:48 +0000 From: To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list , nimerjaber1 at gmail.com Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: <20110316204549.QS3AM.12195.root at cdptpa-web12-z01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Personally, I think it is just an attempt to get attention much like the blind driver challenge. I stipulate that the doj has many more important things to do then deal with google which being a private entity has done nothing illegal. ---- Nimer Jaber wrote: > Hello, > > Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and > are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but > very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing > their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting > sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are > falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on > accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > > Thanks. > > On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > > Hello fellow NABS members. > > > > I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed > > regarding universities using Google Apps. > > > > >From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest > > >isn't. > > (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), > > > > but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > > > > Are we complaining because the University is mandating that > > everything be done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) > > or are we complaining for simply using inaccessible web applications > > that could potentially pose problems? > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Jorge > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gm ail.com > > > > > -- > Nimer M. Jaber > > The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. > If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify > me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken > as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient > may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my > machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible > for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions > or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. > Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these > instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies > of this email from your computer. > > Registered Linux User 529141. > http://counter.li.org/ > Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, > please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org > > To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP > and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org > > Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > http://nimertech.blogspot.com > > Phone: (720) (251-4530) > Please reply to this email to contact me. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40roa > drunner.com ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:46:08 -0400 From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nimer writes: "I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on accessibility for anyone. Just saying ..." Joe responds: If that's true, where's my fully accessible Android phone? Regards, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 15:46:36 -0500 From: Bridgit Pollpeter To: Subject: [nabs-l] skimming Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Antonio, I agree with you. Skimming truly is an essential skill college students should learn. In fact, in most classes teaching study skills, skimming is one of the topics broached. I maintain a high GPA and practice skimming on a daily basis. Yes, some material you will want to read cover-to-cover, but not everything especially in classes that are textbook based versus literature based reading. And when researching for papers and projects, you can not read each word of each document you come across. Finding a reliable way to skim will help students especially as they progress through college. And I completely agree about the comment with grad school. Your reading load is often extremely heavy-- almost inhuman. *smile* It is not even expected for students to read an entire book or document most times. You must do what works best for you, and what you are comfortable with, but skimming, for many, is a crucial skill. I understand the frustration of how different groups like RFBD format each book. Some have great formatting that allows for easy navigation, but many do not. If you use a Victor Stream (or Victoria as I call mine) bookmarking will become your best friend. The time jump option is helpful too. Sometimes, I mark down a small note so I can easily identify what certain bookmarks are for. A lot of this is figuring out what works for you. You will develop your own tools and methods as you progress. And don't worry, skimming does not necessarily adversly affect your grade. It is all how you handle situation from situation, and also what each instructor expects from you. Bridgit Message: 8 Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2011 22:28:56 -0400 From: "Antonio M. Guimaraes Jr." To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] skimming Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Disagree, Students learn better, think more critically, and extrac the excential information from interaction with text, and not even the simple act of reading and taking notes. Notes serve me only to rewrite what I need to learn. Interaction allowes greater participation, better attention, and superior comprehention of a material. Text books are not written as novels, and jumping throu paragraphs allowes one to decide what to read, and what to skip. I want to learn what I want to learn and not have to sit for weeks trying to get every detail down for a test that will only require a specific set of knowledge and information. Further more, a paper requires research, and students, even need to plow though hundrest of pages from douzens of articles just to decide what to write, and how to write it. Now imagine having to read every single word of every single article you think may have something in it for you. I would rather read critically than to read continuously. Antonio Guimaraes On Mar 15, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Jedi wrote: > It is true that sighted students often skip a lot of material. But the advantage in not being able to do that exactly as the sighted do is that you learn more. I usually have top grades in my classes, and I really do think it's because I have to read through more material than my peers do. After all, it is difficult to know exactly what material is not really required unless the professor spells it out for you. So the consequences of skipping through stuff might be that you don't get what you need from the material. > > Respectfully, > Jedi ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:13:50 -0400 From: Jorge Paez To: nimerjaber1 at gmail.com, National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Precisely my thoughts. Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? Or Google? Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that problem. Just my thoughts. Jorge On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > Hello, > > Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and > are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but > very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing > their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting > sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are > falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on > accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > > Thanks. > > On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Hello fellow NABS members. >> >> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed >> regarding universities using Google Apps. >> >>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest >>> isn't. >> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >> >> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >> >> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >> everything be done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) >> or are we complaining for simply using inaccessible web applications >> that could potentially pose problems? >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jorge >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%4 >> 0gmail.com >> > > > -- > Nimer M. Jaber > > The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. > If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify > me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken > as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient > may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my > machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible > for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions > or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. > Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these > instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies > of this email from your computer. > > Registered Linux User 529141. > http://counter.li.org/ > Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, > please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org > > To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP > and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org > > Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > http://nimertech.blogspot.com > > Phone: (720) (251-4530) > Please reply to this email to contact me. > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40m > ac.com ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 21:28:32 +0000 From: To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: <20110316212832.67EBI.6492.root at cdptpa-web20-z02> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 The nfb will never go after freedom scientific. They did not even make a fuss when fs turned off many people's braille displays with jaws 11. This is interesting coming from an organization that claims to promote braille literacy. Could it be that fs helps line the pockets of the nfb? How much does fs spend to get a spot at a convention? ---- Jorge Paez wrote: > Precisely my thoughts. > > Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > > Or Google? > > Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that > problem. > > Just my thoughts. > > Jorge > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated > > and are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, > > but very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies > > doing their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB > > getting sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader > > companies are falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever > > refused to work on accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > > > > Thanks. > > > > On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Hello fellow NABS members. > >> > >> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed > >> regarding universities using Google Apps. > >> > >>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the > >>> rest isn't. > >> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), > >> > >> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > >> > >> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that > >> everything be done threw Google Apps (part of which is > >> unaccessible) or are we complaining for simply using inaccessible > >> web applications that could potentially pose problems? > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Jorge > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > >> for > >> nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gm ail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Nimer M. Jaber > > > > The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. > > If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please > > notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. > > Action taken as a result of this email by anyone other than the > > intended recipient may result in civil or criminal action. I have > > checked all files on my machine for security threats. However, I > > will not be held responsible for any damage caused to your machine > > as a result of any instructions or attachments provided by me. > > Security of your machine is up to you. Thanks, and if you don't feel > > that you are able to comply with these instructions, please notify > > me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email from your > > computer. > > > > Registered Linux User 529141. > > http://counter.li.org/ > > Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > > To get more information about a free and accessible operating > > system, please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org > > > > To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP > > and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org > > > > Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > > http://nimertech.blogspot.com > > > > Phone: (720) (251-4530) > > Please reply to this email to contact me. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%4 > > 0mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40roa > drunner.com ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:30:03 -0400 From: Ignasi Cambra To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and add events etc. In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated differently. There are lots of things that can and should be fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind people in those universities is lying. My university uses Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use it...!! On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Precisely my thoughts. > > Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > > Or Google? > > Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that > problem. > > Just my thoughts. > > Jorge > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and >> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but >> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing >> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting >> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are >> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work >> on accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >> >> Thanks. >> >> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>> >>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed >>> regarding universities using Google Apps. >>> >>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest >>>> isn't. >>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >>> >>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>> >>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>> everything be done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) >>> or are we complaining for simply using inaccessible web applications >>> that could potentially pose problems? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gm ail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nimer M. Jaber >> >> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. >> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify >> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken >> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient >> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on >> my machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >> responsible for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >> instructions or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine >> is up to you. Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to >> comply with these instructions, please notify me via reply email and >> destroy all copies of this email from your computer. >> >> Registered Linux User 529141. >> http://counter.li.org/ >> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >> To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, >> please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org >> >> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >> and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org >> >> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >> >> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >> Please reply to this email to contact me. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40 >> mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%4 > 0gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:34:41 -0400 From: Ignasi Cambra To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: <4A4F10F3-9075-47B0-A9FD-A7FD0194929B at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The point is that if schools have to stop using Google apps because of accessibility, Google will have to make Google apps accessible. But then again, some of the things they say on that press release are false. It looks like they just want to draw attention in this case. And sometimes that's not a bad idea...who knows... On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:45 PM, wrote: > Personally, I think it is just an attempt to get attention much like > the blind driver challenge. I stipulate that the doj has many more important things to do then deal with google which being a private entity has done nothing illegal. > ---- Nimer Jaber wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and >> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but >> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing >> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting >> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are >> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work >> on accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >> >> Thanks. >> >> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>> >>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed >>> regarding universities using Google Apps. >>> >>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest >>>> isn't. >>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >>> >>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>> >>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>> everything be done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) >>> or are we complaining for simply using inaccessible web applications >>> that could potentially pose problems? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gm ail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nimer M. Jaber >> >> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. >> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify >> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken >> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient >> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on >> my machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >> responsible for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >> instructions or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine >> is up to you. Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to >> comply with these instructions, please notify me via reply email and >> destroy all copies of this email from your computer. >> >> Registered Linux User 529141. >> http://counter.li.org/ >> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >> To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, >> please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org >> >> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >> and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org >> >> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >> >> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >> Please reply to this email to contact me. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40ro >> adrunner.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%4 > 0gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 17:39:49 -0400 From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII I don't know, this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on this very list about precisely how accessible Google Apps are. Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to get attention. And get attention for what exactly? Jorge On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of > accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and > calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an HTML > only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good thing about > Google apps is that you can use them through other software. I use > Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, but I never actually > open the Google site for that. I get my emails through Imap and use > iCal to look at the calendar and add events etc. In other words, I > think this complaint should have formulated differently. There are > lots of things that can and should be fixed, but saying that these > services are not usable by blind people in those universities is > lying. My university uses Google apps, and I'm not complaining about > it because I can use it...!! On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez > wrote: > >> Precisely my thoughts. >> >> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >> >> Or Google? >> >> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that >> problem. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated >>> and are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, >>> but very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>> doing their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>> getting sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>> companies are falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever >>> refused to work on accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>> >>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed >>>> regarding universities using Google Apps. >>>> >>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the >>>>> rest isn't. >>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >>>> >>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>> >>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>> everything be done threw Google Apps (part of which is >>>> unaccessible) or are we complaining for simply using inaccessible >>>> web applications that could potentially pose problems? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gm ail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nimer M. Jaber >>> >>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. >>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please >>> notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>> Action taken as a result of this email by anyone other than the >>> intended recipient may result in civil or criminal action. I have >>> checked all files on my machine for security threats. However, I >>> will not be held responsible for any damage caused to your machine >>> as a result of any instructions or attachments provided by me. >>> Security of your machine is up to you. Thanks, and if you don't feel >>> that you are able to comply with these instructions, please notify >>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email from your >>> computer. >>> >>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>> http://counter.li.org/ >>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>> system, please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org >>> >>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >>> and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org >>> >>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>> >>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%4 >>> 0mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra% >> 40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40m > ac.com ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:49:54 -0600 From: "Laura Glowacki" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached google and offer to help with that process? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jorge Paez" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint I don't know, this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on this very list about precisely how accessible Google Apps are. Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to get attention. And get attention for what exactly? Jorge On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of > accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and > calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an > HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good > thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other > software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, > but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my > emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and > add events etc. > In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated > differently. There are lots of things that can and should be > fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind > people in those universities is lying. My university uses > Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use > it...!! > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Precisely my thoughts. >> >> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >> >> Or Google? >> >> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >> that problem. >> >> Just my thoughts. >> >> Jorge >> >> >> >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>> innovated and >>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>> works, but >>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>> doing >>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>> getting >>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>> companies are >>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>> to work on >>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>> >>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>> filed regarding >>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>> >>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>> the rest isn't. >>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>> yet), >>>> >>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>> >>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>> everything be >>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>> are we complaining >>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>> potentially pose >>>> problems? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gm ail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Nimer M. Jaber >>> >>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>> was sent. >>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>> please notify >>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>> Action taken >>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>> recipient >>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>> files on my >>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>> responsible >>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>> instructions >>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>> to you. >>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>> with these >>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>> all copies >>> of this email from your computer. >>> >>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>> http://counter.li.org/ >>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>> system, >>> please click here: >>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>> >>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>> windows XP >>> and above, please click here: >>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>> >>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>> >>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40g mail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly8 7%40gmail.com ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like a stretch, but it's all I can think of. Best, Kirt On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback from > users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things that need to > be worked on, but has anyone actually approached google and offer to > help with that process? > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jorge Paez" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > > I don't know, > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on this > very list about precisely how accessible Google Apps are. > > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to get > attention. > > And get attention for what exactly? > > Jorge > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an HTML >> only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good thing >> about Google apps is that you can use them through other software. I >> use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, but I never >> actually open the Google site for that. I get my emails through Imap >> and use iCal to look at the calendar and add events etc. >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >> it...!! >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>> Precisely my thoughts. >>> >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>> >>> Or Google? >>> >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that >>> problem. >>> >>> Just my thoughts. >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>> >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated >>>> and are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>> works, but >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>> doing >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>> getting >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>> companies are >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>> to work on >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>> >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed >>>>> regarding universities using Google Apps. >>>>> >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the >>>>>> rest isn't. >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >>>>> >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>> >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>> everything be done threw Google Apps (part of which is >>>>> unaccessible) or are we complaining >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>> potentially pose >>>>> problems? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Jorge >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber >>>>> 1%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>> >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was >>>> sent. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>> please notify >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>> Action taken >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>> recipient >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>> files on my >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>> responsible >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>> instructions >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>> to you. >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>> with these >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>> all copies >>>> of this email from your computer. >>>> >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>> system, please click here: >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>> >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >>>> and above, please click here: >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>> >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>> >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez% >>>> 40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra >>> %40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40 >> mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfl > y87%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude > %40gmail.com > ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:25:43 -0500 From: "Tony Grima" (by way of David Andrews ) To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] NBP-Announce: New: Word 2010 Keyboard Commands Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Word 2010 Keyboard Commands With Jaws 12.0, Window-Eyes 7.2, and System Access 3.2 Compiled by Dean Martineau Braille (1 vol.) or eBraille (CD or download), $6.00 At last, here are the most common keyboard commands for the very latest - and reportedly quite confounding - version of Microsoft Word, in one handy volume. These commands work with Word whether you are using a screen reader or not, and regardless of which screen reader you use. Major headings include Word commands, JAWS commands for Word, Window-Eyes commands for Word, and finally System Access commands for Word. In addition to keystrokes, it also includes step-by-step instructions for customizing the keyboard and the Quick Access Toolbar. To order this book online, visit http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/WORD2010KC.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . _______________________________________________ Nbp mailing list Nbp at nbp.org PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message and your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org . Visit us at http://www.nbp.org ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:34:34 -0500 From: David Andrews To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] FW: A Message from Jerry Munden at Prodigy Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed I have been asked to circulate the following: >Prodigy? provides Accessible Diabetes Products >and instruction material on how to Live Healthy with Blindness and >Diabetes > >Prodigy? continues to serve more of our vision >impaired friends with our NFB and AFB Access >Award winning Prodigy Voice? meter and test >strips, as well as the accessible insulin >delivery device; the Prodigy Count-a-dose?. >In addition to our accessible products, Prodigy? >realizes that Education is Key for healthy >living, so we have added to our website: > * The NFB audio book, "Bridging the Gap, > Living with Blindness and Diabetes," authored > by 19 experts in the blindness and diabetes field. > * The new training ?Tools and Techniques for > Managing Diabetes Non-Visually?. Produced and > directed by renowned Blind Industries and > Services of Maryland (BISM). This training > demonstrates the skills for living well with > diabetes using non-visual techniques. > Instruction is presented by Lynn Baillif, MS, > RD, LDN, CDE, a blind diabetes educator, and > includes a demonstration on how to use the > Prodigy Voice? and Prodigy Count-a-dose? products. > * The article due out in consumer diabetes > magazines this spring, ?Adaptive Blood Glucose Monitoring with Vision Loss,? >authored by Debra Sokol-McKay, MS, CVRT, CLVT, CDE, OTR/L, SCLV. > * Prodigy adds diabetes educator Dave Joffe, > BSPharm, CDE, CPT, Clinical Associate Professor > College of Pharmacy University of Florida, to the Prodigy? Team. > * Get ready . . . on June 9, 2011 at 12:00 > pm EST, Hadley School for the Blind will host a > ?Living Well with Diabetes? webinar. >Key speakers include: >? Margaret E. Cleary, Rehabilitation Nurse Consultant >? Naomi Tuttle, Instructor The Hadley School for the Blind >? Jerry Munden, Vice President of >Business Development Prodigy Diabetes Care, LLC > >To sign up for a Seminar at Hadley: > >1) Go to www.hadley.edu >2) Click on "Seminars at Hadley" >3) Click on "Registration" and enter required information >4) You'll receive an email with your "password" >5) On the day of the seminar, Login at ?Registered Participants Login? >with: -User name: first name & last name -Your Password >6) You may have to download a plug-in before signing on >7) When you enter, to use your mike, simply hold >down the control key and speak. > >Registration starts on the day the webinar is >advertised on the Hadley home page, usually >about 2 weeks before the webinar is presented. >If you do not wish to ask questions, you can >listen or text questions via the chat room. If >you can't attend, all webinars are archived and >can be found at >www.hadley.edu under the >heading: "Past Seminars." Anyone can download or >stream them. Hope to see you there! > >Prodigy? makes the helpful training aids >available to all Prodigy? customers, for free, >at >www.prodigymeter.com >in the Low Vision Center. Also, keep up-to-date >on Prodigy? Announcements: >Click >here and subscribe to our Low Vision and Blind Organization News Room! > >Prodigy? continues to work to provide new, >accessible products to fit the needs of all >diabetics, especially the blind and low vision. >Please be advised that the release dates for the >Prodigy IQ Pump? and the Prodigy IQ Patch? has >not been set. As soon as the dates are >announced, your organizations will be the first to know. > > > ** Use Prodigy? Products and Help Us to Help You ** > > >Please contact me at 704-285-6454 or Bernadette >Jacobs at 410-455-5311 >(bandbjacobs at verizon.net) >with any questions you may have. > >Here to Help, > >Jerry Munden (Living well with Type I for 30+ years ... and you can >too!) Vice President of Business Development Prodigy Diabetes Care, LLC >Phone: 704-285-6454 Fax: 704-285-6495 >Email: jerrym at prodigymeter.com >Web: www.prodigymeter.com > > ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 19:45:58 -0500 From: David Andrews To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Survey: Camera Phone Question/answer Service Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have been asked to circulate the following: Dave >From: "Nicole B. Torcolini at Home" >To: "David Andrews" >Subject: Please Distribute >Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:09:39 -0700 > >Can you please send the following to the various lists as you find >appropriate? > >Thanks, >Nicole > >http://survey.rochci.net/ >This form describes a research study that Jeffrey P. Bigham, >principal investigator from the University of Rochester, is >conducting in order to brainstorm potential uses of a camera-phone >question answering service designed to assist people with visual >impairments with everyday visual tasks. ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 20:04:00 -0500 From: "Kubas, Amy" (by way of David Andrews ) To: david.andrews at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Adjusted Design Proposal Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed This is a follow up from Amy Kubas who is the person who asked that we send out an informal survey, on her behalf, the other day. FYI: she is a relative of one of our members here in Minnesota. David Andrews First and foremost, thank you all for taking the time to help me with my Senior Project. I hope you don't mind me contacting you for further inquiries about your suggestions. I was not able to provide more background information in the previous survey and I hope you do not mind if I do so now. As part of our design process we are required to create a target persona of whom we will be designing for. My persona is an 80+-year-old woman whom has recently -gradually yet rapidly- lost her sight due to age. Part of my research presentation to my professors included the statistic that 70% of the 15 million blind and visually impaired persons in the United States are aged 65+ and their visual impairments are most often because of the inevitable aging process. The designs that were selected, I presume, had merit to my professors when dealing with the mobility issues that come with age (essential tremors, arthritis, etc.) and were reviewed in sketch form as opposed to a 3D model. I was worried I might step on some toes with some of the concepts I presented as the recipients of the survey were not privy to my entire research process up to this point (I understand that someone who is blind can more than easily plug in a cord, and am sure I came across as very naive to the majority of readers). I am hoping 3D modeling will help determine which concepts are more appropriate for those with visual and physical limitations and how to create them in such a way as most beneficial to the user. Further along that note, other survey readers had suggested that the products I had listed would benefit more for the user in a commercial setting as many of them have adapted to using those products in their homes in their own ways. (For example, the silverware concept would be more beneficial for use during a business meeting at a chain of restaurants that currently use more mainstream flatware than necessary for a user at his or her home. Moreover, picking up a fork instead of a spoon by mistake isn't the world's biggest problem.) That being said, some of my original concepts not chosen by my professors were actually written in as suggestions from other survey readers. I had a few designs based on stovetops that allow the user to distinguish where the actual burner is (as opposed to more common flat-topped ceramic stoves we have today) as well as interfaces that 'stick' at each interval rather than having a smooth transition from high heat to low heat. I also had a design for a tactile microwave interface as well as one for touch-screen ATMs. I explored washing machines and dryers, and even offered a 'schematic' of sorts that would map out a room for the user that would be an extension of the Braille signs they have now outside of offices, bathrooms, auditoriums, etc. Another approach I had was redesigning US paper currency to be more obvious to its denominations than it currently is today. I now know the majority of people I have been able to contact via the NFB mailing list are well past the transitioning stage and have already adjusted to a lifestyle without sight. As the majority of my responses came from individuals who do not fit the 80+ female demographic, I am hoping to re-examine my concepts and target persona in the next stage of development and provide my professors with the suggestions written in by your readers. I understand with product design nothing is really original. The majority of products are based off of already existing products and the main element that changes how those appear is technology. I feel as if some of my concepts were disregarded by my professors (the tactile stove for example) because it has existed in some form or another before (not that the salt and pepper shakers haven't already been out there, but a stove has been redone based on technology so many times over whereas a salt shaker has stayed relatively the same in it's basic form and function). I came across a quote from a blind man attending the CES convention who said, "There are (products) we can't use because they've been improved to death" which had inspired a lot of my low-tech concepts. There were numerous suggestions I had received about implementing technology into products and I am hoping to get back to each reader to get further help from them. Again, thank you for your sincerity in your response to my survey and for being patient with my very 'sight-minded' view of those with visual impairments. If you don't mind me writing you with further inquiries, I would love to hear more about your opinions of my concepts that weren't selected by my professors but seem in common demand by those I have been able to be in contact with. I hate to bother you all with another posting of a survey, but it seems as if there are things that need to be addressed that my professors might have overlooked from my original designs. Of the following, which would be most appealing to you as a user: 1] A cook top surface with more distinct ways of determining temperature gauges and specific heat surfaces (ex. Knobs that 'stick' at every temperature level from high heat to low heat, a thermostat that audibly tells you what temperature your oven is heating to, etc.) 2] A more tactile or audible way of determining settings on a washer and dryer 3] Tactile interfaces on touch-screen ATMs to help those with low vision select the right buttons to navigate through transactions 4] A universal schematic as an extension of already existing Braille signs that inform the user of floor plans for areas such as public restrooms, auditoriums, large office spaces, etc. 5] US currency (though I know bill-readers already exist I was hoping to design currency that could be determined without the aid of a reader. I received one survey response that suggested maybe even adjusting things ever so slightly so that a new less expensive bill-reader would be able to be used to do the trick. While a new design for reader-free currency might be the ideal option, the reality is that a more cost-effective approach to what already exists might be the best solution. And that suggestion just saved me quite some headache when it comes to tackling a national dilemma!) Other suggestions that weren't in my original 50 concepts but were written in by other recipients included: 6] A way of labeling or organizing electronic cords (ex. Printer cords, USB cords, Internet cables, cell phone chargers, etc. that seem to be kept in the same location) 7) A TV or TV Remote interface that provides more feedback to the viewer. In other words a system that informs someone they are on channel 31 as opposed to 65 or a way of reading scrolling text on news channels, severe weather alerts, the stock market updates, etc. Another recipient suggested a better informative way of interacting with the cable menu systems that come with most cable services. 8) A more cost-effective and more efficient color detector and/or clothes labeler 9) A universal labeling system for things such as canned goods, frozen goods, dry goods, etc. One reader mentioned he had magnetic labels for his canned goods, but if his sighted wife went shopping for groceries she might not always fully understand his system of labeling and will either put cans away without labels or mislabel cans with the wrong ones. 10) An all-inclusive carrying case for things such as a cell phone, iPad, and Braille display. 11) Audible sports equipment (balls that have sound so the blind and sighted can enjoy a game of soccer, etc. mutually. The reader also suggested an audible sensor that could be pinned to a sighted friend when skiing, biking, running, etc.) 12] A potting system for plants that will assist the user in keeping and caring for multiple plants in one pot. 13] a type of recipe holder that can be controlled by voice. One woman told of how it was cumbersome to have to wash her hands every time she wanted to read her braille cookbook to determine the next step in the recipe she was cooking. So potentially something that could be controlled by a simple vocal "Pause", "Back", or "Next" etc. during the cooking process. Are any of the concepts mentioned above of any interest to you? If so, which of those stand out to you? Could you please also provide me with any feedback as to whether audible or tactile cues might be more appropriate for one design versus another? Furthermore, as I hope to design a product that is also appropriate for someone who is currently adjusting to their vision loss, could those of you who have had experience with partial sight fill me in on any difficulties you ran into when transitioning into life without sight? What were your biggest obstacles? What were your frustrations? What things gave you the most relief in the transitional period? I now know the majority of people I have been able to contact via the NFB mailing list have already adjusted to a lifestyle without sight, but I am hoping you might be able to help me better understand the difficulties of the transition period in particular. Again, I apologize for the lengthy email, but want to sincerely thank you for all your help and patience! I look forward to hearing the responses from those of you willing to take the time and am excited to inform my professors of the concepts and improvements you have suggested me to move forward with! Warmest thanks, Amy Kubas kubasa at my.uwstout.edu ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 21:34:11 -0500 From: "Raul A. Gallegos" (by way of David Andrews ) To: nfbcs at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Window-Eyes 7.5 is Now Available Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Window-Eyes 7.5 is Now Available Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 12:16:57 -0400 From: marc at gwmicro.com To: gw-info at gwmicro.com GW Micro is proud to announce the highly anticipated release of Window-Eyes 7.5. This version of Window-Eyes introduces several new features, including a completely re-designed (and much more intuitive) user interface, full UIA support, support for Internet Explorer 9 and Windows Live Mail/Windows Live Messenger 2011, plus a brand new Remote Assistance feature. In addition to these new features, Window-Eyes 7.5 also boasts a significant performance increase in Microsoft Office products, along with many bug fixes and stability improvements. Window-Eyes 7.5 is also the first version of Window-Eyes to re-brand the notion of scripts into a more comfortable and recognizable term: apps. Window-Eyes Apps embrace a broader sense of usage by including everything from program enhancements that deal specifically with accessibility issues to more convenience-oriented apps and everything in between. While the underlying structure of these Window-Eyes enhancements is the same industry standard that has been in place since its inception in Window-Eyes 7.0, the concept of an app is more widely known, and the use of this term will help eliminate the confusion often associated with the more technical expression. Window-Eyes 7.5 will include a number of new apps that have been designed to make your applications more accessible and create a more enjoyable computing experience overall. Read more about the additional features and enhancements that Window-Eyes 7.5 offers at http://www.gwmicro.com/Window-Eyes/Latest_Features <../../Window-Eyes/Latest_Features>. Window-Eyes 7.5 is a paid upgrade for existing Window-Eyes users. If you already own Window-Eyes 7.X and have an active software maintenance agreement (SMA), you will be receiving your Window-Eyes 7.5 CD in the mail soon. Please be patient; Window-Eyes SMA CDs are our first priority but it might take several days before we are able to ship the CDs to all of our SMA customers. You may also choose to download your Window-Eyes 7.5 upgrade for immediate installation. To download the Window-Eyes 7.5 upgrade, to check the status of your SMA count, or to determine your upgrade eligibility, go to the Window-Eyes Help menu, and choose the Window-Eyes Upgrade option. Alternatively, you can visit http://www.gwmicro.com/upgrade <../../upgrade>, and follow the instructions. If you already own Window-Eyes but don???t have an active SMA, you may purchase an upgrade to Window-Eyes 7.5. Please contact GW Micro or your local dealer for upgrade pricing. US customers can also refer to the GW Micro Window-Eyes Upgrade Catalog page (https://www.gwmicro.com/Catalog/Upgrades/) for applicable upgrade costs. Window-Eyes 7.5 supports Windows XP, Windows Vista, Windows 7, Windows Server 2003 and Windows Server 2008. As of July 13, 2010, Microsoft ended support for all Windows 2000 products. Window-Eyes 7.5, therefore, will not install under Windows 2000, and requires at least Windows XP to run. If you have any questions or concerns, please contact us at 260 486-3671, or support at gwmicro.com . ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 23:16:11 -0400 From: To: , "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] skimming Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Joe and all, Unfortunately, I've only seen rfb mark pages and chapters not major section headings in books. I can book mark a major subject heading, but don't think rfb does that. I have lecture notes to see the main points and use that as a guide for reading. Normally I just read the whole chapter, but when pressed for time do try skimming. What I do to attempt to skim rfb books is read a few pages, skip some pages and read another page. If it?s the same subject matter, I skip to the next page. For instance my interpersonal communication book went on and on page after page with examples of social communities. So after reading the main heading through, I heard the subheadings and skipped those and skipped the box examples too. The best I could do was to listen page by page for a new topic; if it was the same one, go to the next page. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Joe Orozco Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 8:36 AM To: 'National Association of Blind Students mailing list' Subject: Re: [nabs-l] skimming Antonio, Yeah, I don't know how many people actually read the whole text in their studies. I'm sure Hermione would approve, but in my reality, this was never accomplished. I don't know if it's possible, but could you get a copy of Dragon Dictation, set it to record the RFB audio, and convert to text that way? I mean, you'd think it would be doable. I have no idea how much the Dragon software costs, so this may be of no use to you this time around. If I were in your position, I would probably speed up the audio to something quick but legible. Also, doesn't RFB mark their audio? I don't think it's one continuous recording, so I would probably listen to the first few minutes of each section and then move on. I assume you already have class notes, which you can then turn into an outline, and you figure out how much to listen to based on the structure of your outline. Yes, there are professors who will test you on things not covered in lecture, but the main points will have been covered in class. If you fill in the outline through this suggested method of audio skimming, you can later go back and listen to the most relevant sections more thoroughly, but perhaps the most important advice is not to postpone your reading until the last minute! Well, the second best advice is to buy the hard copy books and do your own scanning. Best, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 23:48:56 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Ignosi, My school uses a google email system. Its pretty accessible but could be improved. Do you use jaws? How do you access the calendar? -----Original Message----- From: Ignasi Cambra Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 5:30 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and add events etc. In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated differently. There are lots of things that can and should be fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind people in those universities is lying. My university uses Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use it...!! On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > Precisely my thoughts. > > Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > > Or Google? > > Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that problem. > > Just my thoughts. > > Jorge > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and >> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but >> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing >> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting >> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are >> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on >> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >> >> Thanks. >> >> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>> >>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National filed >>> regarding >>> universities using Google Apps. >>> >>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the rest >>>> isn't. >>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >>> >>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>> >>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything >>> be >>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we >>> complaining >>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially >>> pose >>> problems? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gm ail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Nimer M. Jaber >> >> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. >> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify >> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken >> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient >> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my >> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible >> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions >> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. >> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these >> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies >> of this email from your computer. >> >> Registered Linux User 529141. >> http://counter.li.org/ >> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >> To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, >> please click here: >> http://www.vinuxproject.org >> >> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP >> and above, please click here: >> http://www.nvda-project.org >> >> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >> >> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >> Please reply to this email to contact me. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40g mail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 00:01:24 -0400 From: Elizabeth To: Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello All, I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true because my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to all students. Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. Elizabeth > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 > From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not > wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I > know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the > likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, > litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some > limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like > a stretch, but it's all I can think of. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback > > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things > > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached > > google and offer to help with that process? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jorge Paez" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps > > complaint > > > > > > I don't know, > > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on > > this very list about > > precisely how accessible Google Apps are. > > > > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to > > get attention. > > > > And get attention for what exactly? > > > > Jorge > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > > > >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of > >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and > >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an > >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good > >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other > >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, > >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my > >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and > >> add events etc. > >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated > >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be > >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind > >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses > >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use > >> it...!! > >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> > >>> Precisely my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > >>> > >>> Or Google? > >>> > >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix > >>> that problem. > >>> > >>> Just my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Jorge > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hello, > >>>> > >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have > >>>> innovated and > >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW > >>>> works, but > >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies > >>>> doing > >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB > >>>> getting > >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader > >>>> companies are > >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused > >>>> to work on > >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National > >>>>> filed regarding > >>>>> universities using Google Apps. > >>>>> > >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but > >>>>>> the rest isn't. > >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of > >>>>> yet), > >>>>> > >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > >>>>> > >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that > >>>>> everything be > >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or > >>>>> are we complaining > >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could > >>>>> potentially pose > >>>>> problems? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> Jorge > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gm ail.com > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Nimer M. Jaber > >>>> > >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it > >>>> was sent. > >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, > >>>> please notify > >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. > >>>> Action taken > >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended > >>>> recipient > >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all > >>>> files on my > >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held > >>>> responsible > >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any > >>>> instructions > >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up > >>>> to you. > >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply > >>>> with these > >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy > >>>> all copies > >>>> of this email from your computer. > >>>> > >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. > >>>> http://counter.li.org/ > >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating > >>>> system, > >>>> please click here: > >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org > >>>> > >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for > >>>> windows XP > >>>> and above, please click here: > >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org > >>>> > >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com > >>>> > >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) > >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for nabs-l: > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>> info for nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40g mail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly8 7%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotm ail.com ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 00:27:09 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and text! You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite frustrating. Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software to communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Hello All, I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true because my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to all students. Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. Elizabeth > Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 > From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not > wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I > know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the > likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, > litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some > limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like > a stretch, but it's all I can think of. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback > > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things > > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached > > google and offer to help with that process? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jorge Paez" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps > > complaint > > > > > > I don't know, > > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on > > this very list about > > precisely how accessible Google Apps are. > > > > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to > > get attention. > > > > And get attention for what exactly? > > > > Jorge > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > > > >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of > >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and > >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an > >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good > >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other > >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, > >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my > >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and > >> add events etc. > >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated > >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be > >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind > >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses > >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use > >> it...!! > >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> > >>> Precisely my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > >>> > >>> Or Google? > >>> > >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix > >>> that problem. > >>> > >>> Just my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Jorge > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hello, > >>>> > >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have > >>>> innovated and > >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW > >>>> works, but > >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies > >>>> doing > >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB > >>>> getting > >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader > >>>> companies are > >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused > >>>> to work on > >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National > >>>>> filed regarding > >>>>> universities using Google Apps. > >>>>> > >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but > >>>>>> the rest isn't. > >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of > >>>>> yet), > >>>>> > >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > >>>>> > >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that > >>>>> everything be > >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or > >>>>> are we complaining > >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could > >>>>> potentially pose > >>>>> problems? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> Jorge > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gm ail.com > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Nimer M. Jaber > >>>> > >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it > >>>> was sent. > >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, > >>>> please notify > >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. > >>>> Action taken > >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended > >>>> recipient > >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all > >>>> files on my > >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held > >>>> responsible > >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any > >>>> instructions > >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up > >>>> to you. > >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply > >>>> with these > >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy > >>>> all copies > >>>> of this email from your computer. > >>>> > >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. > >>>> http://counter.li.org/ > >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating > >>>> system, > >>>> please click here: > >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org > >>>> > >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for > >>>> windows XP > >>>> and above, please click here: > >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org > >>>> > >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com > >>>> > >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) > >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>> info for nabs-l: > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>> info for nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40g mail.com > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >> info for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac .com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > > for nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly8 7%40gmail.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > nabs-l mailing list > > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%4 0gmail.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotm ail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40ea rthlink.net ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 00:44:42 -0500 From: Joshua Lester To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Help! I'm having problems with Blackboard! Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi, it's Joshua Lester. I thought that the NFB had already worked everything out with Blackboard. Well, it's acting up. I can log in, go to my courses, click course content, and go to my assignment. When I go to begin, that's when the trouble starts. The Jaws won't read the assignments to me. I'm trying to complete my study guide, for bonus points. Our test is this afternoon, so I need help ASAP! I had the assignment printed out, but something came up, so my work-study and i couldn't work. Thanks for your help. Blessings, Joshua ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 22:51:38 -0700 From: Darian Smith To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: RFB&D National Achievement Awards Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" I have been asked to pass along the following. I hope this is of help to you, and that you would pass this along ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Greenwald, Melissa" Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:47:17 -0500 Subject: RFB&D National Achievement Awards To: Darian Smith Hi Darian, We spoke earlier in the year about the RFB&D National Achievement Awards offered to visually impaired students. I wanted to reach out to you and let you know that the deadline has been extended to March 25, 2011. RFB&D members who are blind or visually impaired and have or will be receiving a bachelor's, master's or doctorate degree between July 1, 2010 and June 30, 2011 are eligible to apply. I've attached the application and hope that you can pass this information along to anyone you see fit. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. Best, Melissa Greenwald Melissa Greenwald Marketing Associate Organizational Positioning Department __________________________________ [cid:image001.jpg at 01CBDF18.4C9C4530] Recording for the Blind & Dyslexic 20 Roszel Road, Princeton, NJ 08540 609-243-7087 / Direct mgreenwald at rfbd.org www.rfbd.org -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. ? Robert Byrne -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: SAA Application.doc Type: application/msword Size: 71680 bytes Desc: not available URL: ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org End of nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 23 ************************************** From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 17 18:26:15 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:26:15 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google Calendar In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com><1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com><897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com><3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> Message-ID: <6D9D184CA1504D6D94E9B18C9D1AFBCE@OwnerPC> How do you get to and use google calendar? Do you do that through your gmail account? I also have a gmail account. I'd like to see this google calendar to see what accessibility issues arise with jaws. So far I don't see specifics; what is accessible and what needs work on the calendar? Is it graphical? Does jaws not read labels and buttons? I wonder the problems. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:08 PM To: jsorozco at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google Calendar Hi Joe and all, Is it possible to keep track of other people's calendars using the Outlook sync work-around you describe? If not, this still can present an accessibility barrier in some workplace situations and perhaps academic situations as well. For example, my lab uses Google Calendar to coordinate all of our schedules and come up with times when everyone can meet, etc. I could see this presenting a real problem for university faculty at schools where Google Calendar is used as the primary means of scheduling meetings, work assignments, etc. Arielle On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: > Hi Arielle, > > I don't know that Google Calendar is the most accessible feature on the > web > interface. There's a big difference anyway between the accessibility of > GMail versus Google Calendar. I personally use Google Sync to link my > Outlook Calendar with Google Calendar, which in turn automatically syncs > with my Windows phone and iPod Touch. So far, I must say the iPod Touch > has > the most kick ass way of navigating a calendar I've ever seen. > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > -----Original Message----- > From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:nabs.president at gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:53 AM > To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing > list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > Hi all, > > Does Google Calendar have a basic html option? If not, how do you > access it with JAWS? > > Arielle > > On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for >> a >> plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same > wrongdoing. >> Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate > other >> universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to >> work >> with Google to make the apps more accessible. There are multiple >> benefits >> that come from filing complaints. The complaint itself is only the >> foundation for the type of change that may evolve. >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >> sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf >> Of Kirt Manwaring >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> Joe, >> All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. >> The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being >> investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, >> and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring >> limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out >> of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, >> but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small >> affair. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> Joe, >>> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the >>> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The >> press >>> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and >>> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain >>> about >>> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from >> the >>> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the >>> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate >>> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... >>> >>> IC >>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> >>>> Ignasi, >>>> >>>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >>>> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >>>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way >>>> to >>>> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and >> Sites >>>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >>>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch > out >>>> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >>>> better >>>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration > than >>>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >>>> >>>> Kirt, >>>> >>>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >>>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone >>>> under >>>> the >>>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the > most >>>> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >>>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality >>>> of >>>> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student >>>> list, >>>> I'm >>>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >>>> >>>> Jorge, >>>> >>>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >>>> attract >>>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, >> educational >>>> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered > into >>>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited >>>> funds, >>>> it >>>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it >>>> hopes >>>> its >>>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >>>> There >>>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >>>> >>>> Anyway, just my thoughts, >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >> sleeves, >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even > for >>>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up >>>> when >>>> you >>>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >>>> there >>>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a >>>> different >>>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >>>> can >>>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >>>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >>>> such >>>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >>>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only >>>> big >>>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >>>> actually >>>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to > retrieve >>>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >>>> site >>>> itself is not accessible. >>>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate >>>>> is >>>> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links > and >>>> text! >>>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >>>> frustrating. >>>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software >> to >>>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>>>> Ashley >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello All, >>>>> >>>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know >> from >>>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>>> because >>>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >>>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >>>> such >>>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing >> to >>>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice >> in >>>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >>>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >>>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible >> to >>>> all students. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>>>> >>>>> Elizabeth >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>> complaint >>>>>> >>>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> Kirt >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>>> complaint >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't know, >>>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>>>> this very list about >>>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>>>> get attention. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>>>> it...!! >>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>> .com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >>>> gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>> il.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >>>> com >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >>>> ink.net >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma > il.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 18:37:52 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:37:52 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Google Calendar In-Reply-To: <6D9D184CA1504D6D94E9B18C9D1AFBCE@OwnerPC> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com><1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com><897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com><3BB5CDAEDB574A4480545DD8C1FF4B90@Rufus> <6D9D184CA1504D6D94E9B18C9D1AFBCE@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Log in to gmail and click the calendar link. On Mar 17, 2011, at 2:26 PM, wrote: > How do you get to and use google calendar? Do you do that through your gmail account? I also have a gmail account. > I'd like to see this google calendar to see what accessibility issues arise with jaws. > So far I don't see specifics; what is accessible and what needs work on the calendar? Is it graphical? Does jaws not read labels and buttons? I wonder the problems. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- From: Arielle Silverman > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:08 PM > To: jsorozco at gmail.com ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Google Calendar > > Hi Joe and all, > Is it possible to keep track of other people's calendars using the > Outlook sync work-around you describe? If not, this still can present > an accessibility barrier in some workplace situations and perhaps > academic situations as well. For example, my lab uses Google Calendar > to coordinate all of our schedules and come up with times when > everyone can meet, etc. I could see this presenting a real problem for > university faculty at schools where Google Calendar is used as the > primary means of scheduling meetings, work assignments, etc. > > Arielle > > On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >> Hi Arielle, >> >> I don't know that Google Calendar is the most accessible feature on the web >> interface. There's a big difference anyway between the accessibility of >> GMail versus Google Calendar. I personally use Google Sync to link my >> Outlook Calendar with Google Calendar, which in turn automatically syncs >> with my Windows phone and iPod Touch. So far, I must say the iPod Touch has >> the most kick ass way of navigating a calendar I've ever seen. >> >> Best, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Arielle Silverman [mailto:nabs.president at gmail.com] >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 11:53 AM >> To: jsorozco at gmail.com; National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> Hi all, >> >> Does Google Calendar have a basic html option? If not, how do you >> access it with JAWS? >> >> Arielle >> >> On 3/17/11, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> Yes, I think that's how cases normally work, since it's not feasible for a >>> plaintiff to go after every single offender engaged in the same >> wrongdoing. >>> Even if the case does not set a precedent, the publicity may motivate >> other >>> universities to evaluate Google Apps and maybe even encourage them to work >>> with Google to make the apps more accessible. There are multiple benefits >>> that come from filing complaints. The complaint itself is only the >>> foundation for the type of change that may evolve. >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >>> Of Kirt Manwaring >>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> Joe, >>> All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. >>> The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being >>> investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, >>> and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring >>> limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out >>> of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, >>> but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small >>> affair. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>> Joe, >>>> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the >>>> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The >>> press >>>> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and >>>> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about >>>> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from >>> the >>>> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the >>>> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate >>>> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... >>>> >>>> IC >>>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: >>>> >>>>> Ignasi, >>>>> >>>>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >>>>> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >>>>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to >>>>> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and >>> Sites >>>>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >>>>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch >> out >>>>> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >>>>> better >>>>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration >> than >>>>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >>>>> >>>>> Kirt, >>>>> >>>>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >>>>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under >>>>> the >>>>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the >> most >>>>> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >>>>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of >>>>> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, >>>>> I'm >>>>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >>>>> >>>>> Jorge, >>>>> >>>>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >>>>> attract >>>>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, >>> educational >>>>> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered >> into >>>>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, >>>>> it >>>>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes >>>>> its >>>>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >>>>> There >>>>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, just my thoughts, >>>>> >>>>> Joe >>>>> >>>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>> sleeves, >>>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>> >>>>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even >> for >>>>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when >>>>> you >>>>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >>>>> there >>>>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different >>>>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >>>>> can >>>>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >>>>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >>>>> such >>>>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >>>>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big >>>>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >>>>> actually >>>>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to >> retrieve >>>>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >>>>> site >>>>> itself is not accessible. >>>>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is >>>>> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links >> and >>>>> text! >>>>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >>>>> frustrating. >>>>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software >>> to >>>>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello All, >>>>>> >>>>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know >>> from >>>>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>>>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>>>> because >>>>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >>>>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >>>>> such >>>>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing >>> to >>>>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice >>> in >>>>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >>>>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >>>>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible >>> to >>>>> all students. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>>>>> >>>>>> Elizabeth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Kirt >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>>>> complaint >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know, >>>>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>>>>> this very list about >>>>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>>>>> get attention. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>>>>> it...!! >>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >>>>> gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>>>> il.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >>>>> com >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >>>>> ink.net >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>>>> .com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>> il.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gma >> il.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Arielle Silverman >> President, National Association of Blind Students >> Phone: 602-502-2255 >> Email: >> nabs.president at gmail.com >> Website: >> www.nabslink.org >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From steve.jacobson at visi.com Thu Mar 17 18:59:16 2011 From: steve.jacobson at visi.com (Steve Jacobson) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:59:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sometimes I really don't understand where people come from. In a situation like this, if you get a couple of major universities to change and you make the issue high profile enough, the others will see the writing on the wall. There is simply no need to spend the money and the time trying to find out, for example, every university that uses these apps before taking some action. surely this isn't rocket science. Secondly, nobody is ruling out the use of Google Apps at some point. If google sees that this might well shrink their market, they will do one of two things. They will either develop some options that are not as cutting edge but more compatible with existing screen reader technology or they may play a role in getting more screen readers to work with their products. Third, accessibility is not a simple issue. We are going to have to be patient sometimes, and I would be the first to admit that Google has done some good work with respect to accessibility, but they do seem to have a pattern of designing and then releasing their products and then turning their attention to accessibility to some degree. If we make it more difficult for them to receive the benefitsof a new product until after accessibility is working well, they'll move that up in their priorities. We just are not a big enough market for most companies to worry about without leveraging federal funds where we can. Also, we just can't afford to let a pattern start that leaves us in a difficult position where education is concerned. Besides, as someone else said, this isn't just about Google, it is about universities who make decisions that exclude portions of those enrolled. I just don't get this feeling that this great big mean Federation is beating up on poor little Google as if it doesn't have a penny to its name. What about the blind student who is placed at an unnecessary disadvantage solely because of a decision a university makes that may well violate the law. Best regards, Steve Jacobson On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 08:35:20 -0600, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >Joe, > All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. >The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being >investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, >and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring >limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out >of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, >but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small >affair. > Best, >Kirt >On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> Joe, >> Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the >> complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The press >> release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and >> calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about >> those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from the >> fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the >> complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate >> information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... >> >> IC >> On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: >> >>> Ignasi, >>> >>> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >>> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >>> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to >>> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and Sites >>> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >>> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out >>> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >>> better >>> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than >>> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >>> >>> Kirt, >>> >>> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >>> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under >>> the >>> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most >>> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >>> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of >>> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, >>> I'm >>> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >>> >>> Jorge, >>> >>> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >>> attract >>> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, educational >>> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into >>> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, >>> it >>> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes >>> its >>> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >>> There >>> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >>> >>> Anyway, just my thoughts, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Ignasi Cambra >>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for >>> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when >>> you >>> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >>> there >>> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different >>> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >>> can >>> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >>> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >>> such >>> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >>> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big >>> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >>> actually >>> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve >>> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >>> site >>> itself is not accessible. >>> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >>> wrote: >>> >>>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is >>> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and >>> text! >>>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >>> frustrating. >>>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software to >>> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>>> Ashley >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello All, >>>> >>>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from >>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>> because >>> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >>> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >>> such >>> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to >>> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in >>> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >>> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >>> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to >>> all students. >>>> >>>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>>> >>>> Elizabeth >>>> >>>> >>>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>>> >>>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>>> Best, >>>>> Kirt >>>>> >>>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>>> complaint >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't know, >>>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>>> this very list about >>>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>>> >>>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>>> get attention. >>>>>> >>>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jorge >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>>> it...!! >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >>> com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >>> gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >>> il.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >>> com >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >>> ink.net >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >>> .com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/steve.jacobson%40visi.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 17 19:38:06 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:38:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com><1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com><897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <14FCE90B23C143F1AC41EC7014A348DA@OwnerPC> Kirt, They picked certain universities because certain students were there and unable to access this inaccessible content. You just can't file complaints on hypethetical situations. Yes if some universities change, maybe it will set a chain reaction where other universities consider accessibility before choosing software. -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 10:35 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Joe, All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small affair. Best, Kirt On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Joe, > Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the > complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I don't. The > press > release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and > calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about > those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from > the > fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the > complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate > information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... > > IC > On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: > >> Ignasi, >> >> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, >> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are >> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to >> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and >> Sites >> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational >> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out >> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little >> better >> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than >> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. >> >> Kirt, >> >> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to >> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under >> the >> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most >> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the >> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of >> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, >> I'm >> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. >> >> Jorge, >> >> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't >> attract >> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, >> educational >> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into >> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, >> it >> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes >> its >> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. >> There >> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. >> >> Anyway, just my thoughts, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >> sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Ignasi Cambra >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for >> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when >> you >> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but >> there >> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different >> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You >> can >> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. >> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client >> such >> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! >> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big >> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's >> actually >> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve >> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs >> site >> itself is not accessible. >> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, >> wrote: >> >>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is >> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and >> text! >>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite >> frustrating. >>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software >>> to >> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth >>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know >>> from >> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >> because >> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and >> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >> such >> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing >> to >> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice >> in >> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic >> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or >> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible >> to >> all students. >>> >>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>> >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>> complaint >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know, >>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>> this very list about >>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>> >>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>> get attention. >>>>> >>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>> >>>>> Jorge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>> it...!! >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. >> com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40 >> gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gma >> il.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail. >> com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthl >> ink.net >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail >> .com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jsorozco%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 17 19:44:51 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:44:51 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <22676202-088E-4384-8C09-0207EC317A0E@gmail.com> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com>, , , , , , <22676202-088E-4384-8C09-0207EC317A0E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <646B539EE704413AA93BD1D2FFA57EA2@OwnerPC> Ic, That is not the case with educational institutions who use the google email platform. You can switch to basic html which is what I do to read email; otherwise no links open and jaws does not read buttons. But no gmail does NOT remember I want to keep it as basic html. I have to change that every time I log into the system! Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Ignasi Cambra Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:41 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In case it helps, the link you can use to switch to the more accessible version of google mail is located right before the copyright notice at the bottom of the gmail site. Log in, and look for it. It's called "classic html" or "basic html" or something like that. You only have to do this once. Whenever you log in after that, it will remember that you want the basic html site and not the regular one. On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > > Hello All, > > I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from > my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some > colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true > because my college uses the Google email application for its email system, > and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as > such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is > choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have > a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating > electronic information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the > college or university to ensure that the software programs they use are > accessible to all students. > > Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. > > Elizabeth > > >> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >> Best, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>> google and offer to help with that process? >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>> complaint >>> >>> >>> I don't know, >>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>> this very list about >>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>> >>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>> get attention. >>> >>> And get attention for what exactly? >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> >>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>> add events etc. >>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>> it...!! >>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> >>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>> >>>>> Or Google? >>>>> >>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>> that problem. >>>>> >>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>> >>>>> Jorge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello, >>>>>> >>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>> innovated and >>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>> works, but >>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>> doing >>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>> getting >>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>> companies are >>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>> to work on >>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>> >>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>> >>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>> was sent. >>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>> please notify >>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>> Action taken >>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>> recipient >>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>> files on my >>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>> responsible >>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>> instructions >>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>> to you. >>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>> with these >>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>> all copies >>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>> >>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>> system, >>>>>> please click here: >>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>> >>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>> windows XP >>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>> >>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>> >>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 19:46:44 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:46:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Confused regarding suit against Google Aps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: But do we pursue negotiations before slapping law suits? Do we reach out and seek diplomatic talks before engaging in legal suits? All institutions should follow fair and equal standards, and they must be accountable, but I understand the sentiments of those who are wary of the law suits. I am curious if anyone knows what, if any, the NFB does before filing suits? Do we extend an opportunity to fix the problem before dropping a law suit? We don't want to be known as a litigious organization. In fact, many people-- members and non-members-- have asked me why the NFB sues everyone. We certainly have an image to maintain, and we must demand equality, but should we become the bulldog on the block? Just food for thought. Bridgit Message: 5 Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 13:19:23 -0500 From: "Sean Whalen" To: Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: <002701cbe4cf$d7f8c880$87ea5980$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, Alex and Mary have got it pretty much right on point, but I will share a couple brief additional thoughts: We are filing against the academic institutions and not Google itself because the law (ADA and IDEA, I think) have requirements for accessibility for all students. There is no law requiring corporations to make their software products accessible. That is part of what NFB is driving at with the Tech Bill of Rights. The complaints are being filed against the four schools because these schools have actual instances of blind students or faculty not being able to use the applications. You cannot sue or file complaints based on hypothetical situations, there must be actual harm being done to an actual person to have standing. That is my understanding anyway. And, yes, it does set a favorable precedent when we win these cases. Fewer institutions will implement technologies that are inaccessible if they know they are just one lawsuit away from being forced to revamp what they are doing. The idea that this is just some publicity grab, as some might consider the blind driver challenge, of which I myself am skeptical, is inaccurate. This is a case of an organization standing up and taking action to protect the rights of, and increase opportunities for, its membership. This, in my opinion, is some of the bread and butter of what NFB is for. There is nothing wrong with filing lawsuits. That is how laws are given teeth. Laws on the books are useless unless they are enforced, and it is incumbent upon those who want them enforced to ensure that they are. Take care, Sean From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 20:22:52 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:22:52 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <646B539EE704413AA93BD1D2FFA57EA2@OwnerPC> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <22676202-088E-4384-8C09-0207EC317A0E@gmail.com> <646B539EE704413AA93BD1D2FFA57EA2@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, You do? It remembers for me. On 3/17/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Ic, > That is not the case with educational institutions who use the google email > platform. > You can switch to basic html which is what I do to read email; otherwise no > links open and jaws does not read buttons. > But no gmail does NOT remember I want to keep it as basic html. I have to > change that every time I log into the system! > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:41 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > In case it helps, the link you can use to switch to the more accessible > version of google mail is located right before the copyright notice at the > bottom of the gmail site. Log in, and look for it. It's called "classic > html" or "basic html" or something like that. You only have to do this once. > Whenever you log in after that, it will remember that you want the basic > html site and not the regular one. > On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > >> >> Hello All, >> >> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from >> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >> because my college uses the Google email application for its email system, >> >> and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >> >> such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is >> choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have >> >> a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating >> electronic information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the >> college or university to ensure that the software programs they use are >> accessible to all students. >> >> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >> >> Elizabeth >> >> >>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> >>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>> complaint >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know, >>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>> this very list about >>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>> >>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>> get attention. >>>> >>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>> add events etc. >>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>> it...!! >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>> >>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>> >>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>> that problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jorge >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>> doing >>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>> getting >>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>> with these >>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>> system, >>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 21:27:23 2011 From: orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com (Laura Glowacki) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:27:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com><22676202-088E-4384-8C09-0207EC317A0E@gmail.com><646B539EE704413AA93BD1D2FFA57EA2@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, You need to click the "basic html" option located at the bottom of the page above the copyright information. But then you also, after that, need to scroll back up to the top of the page. Arrow down until you hear "you are currently viewing gmail in html". There are two links below that, and the second says something like "set basic html as default view." Then gmail will remember your html setting when viewing your email through the gmail site. HTH, Laura ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Ashley, You do? It remembers for me. On 3/17/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Ic, > That is not the case with educational institutions who use the > google email > platform. > You can switch to basic html which is what I do to read email; > otherwise no > links open and jaws does not read buttons. > But no gmail does NOT remember I want to keep it as basic html. > I have to > change that every time I log into the system! > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:41 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps > complaint > > In case it helps, the link you can use to switch to the more > accessible > version of google mail is located right before the copyright > notice at the > bottom of the gmail site. Log in, and look for it. It's called > "classic > html" or "basic html" or something like that. You only have to > do this once. > Whenever you log in after that, it will remember that you want > the basic > html site and not the regular one. > On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > >> >> Hello All, >> >> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I >> do know from >> my own personal experience that the Google applications used >> by some >> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to >> be true >> because my college uses the Google email application for its >> email system, >> >> and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google >> account, and as >> >> such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national >> office is >> choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the >> colleges have >> >> a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to >> disseminating >> electronic information. I believe it would be the >> responsibility of the >> college or university to ensure that the software programs >> they use are >> accessible to all students. >> >> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >> >> Elizabeth >> >> >>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>> complaint >>> >>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the >>> NFB not >>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with >>> google. I >>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against >>> the >>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, >>> probably, >>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about >>> some >>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? >>> Sounds like >>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki >>> wrote: >>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking >>>> feedback >>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still >>>> things >>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually >>>> approached >>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>> complaint >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know, >>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has >>>> been on >>>> this very list about >>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>> >>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying >>>> to >>>> get attention. >>>> >>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms >>>>> of >>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email >>>>> and >>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has >>>>> an >>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the >>>>> good >>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through >>>>> other >>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my >>>>> Mac, >>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get >>>>> my >>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar >>>>> and >>>>> add events etc. >>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have >>>>> formulated >>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should >>>>> be >>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by >>>>> blind >>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can >>>>> use >>>>> it...!! >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>> >>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>> >>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>> that problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jorge >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader >>>>>>> companies >>>>>>> doing >>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the >>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>> getting >>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever >>>>>>> refused >>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint >>>>>>>> National >>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that >>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the >>>>>>> intended >>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine >>>>>>> is up >>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>> with these >>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and >>>>>>> destroy >>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible >>>>>>> operating >>>>>>> system, >>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>> account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account >>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 20:58:17 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:58:17 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Mobile Geo at a Price You Can't Beat! Message-ID: Hello, I have the latest copy of Mobile Geo for sale with the North American maps. Please note you'll need Mobile Speak for this product. The price follows the description and is lower than anything you'll find from other companies. Links to Mobile Speak and Mobile Geo are below my signature. With Mobile Geo, you can pinpoint your location, learn about the points of interest (POIs) in your immediate vicinity, plan a route between specified points of origin and destination, and get instructions on maneuvers about waypoints along a route that you are following. With Mobile Geo, it's easy to find the nearest train or bus stop and pull up their schedule! When you're on the move with Mobile Geo, be it at either 1 mile per hour or 101 miles per hour, relax while Geo automatically announces upcoming intersections, points of interests, city names and so much more; all through the comfort and convenience of your mobile phone. Want privacy? No problem, simply attach your favorite wired or Bluetooth headset to your phone and "You're Ready to Go." GEO GIVES YOU VIRTUAL REALITY Want to experience a real virtual reality? With the combined power and technical resources of Code Factory and Sendero, use Mobile Geo to explore your world without ever leaving home. That's right! Geo lets you preview a route or visit a distant city, including its points of interests, with the virtual flick of a real switch. GEO'S GOT YOUR BACK Seamlessly slide Geo to the background when you want to make or answer a telephone call, send text messages, read emails, surf the web, whatever and whenever you want and Geo will continue to provide "LookAround" announcements. GEO'S GOT VIBES Not only will Geo navigate, listen, and reply with speech and audio feedback, it will also shake you up. Geo will move your body as it tells you how to move through your world with its innovative Morse Code based vibratory feedback alert system. Deaf-blind travelers will find this feature especially useful. GEO'S GOT POI POWER Looking for a particular point of interest? With Mobile Geo, you have the world's most powerful POI and intuitive mobile search engine at your fingertips. Mobile Geo is the one and only GPS mobile software solution that, in addition to the traditional search criteria such as name, street, City, and web address, allows you to search for points of interests in a specific direction of travel. GEO IS INDEPENDENT With Mobile Geo, no data plan? No problem. Because all of Mobile Geo's active mapping and POI information is stored directly on your mobile phone, there is absolutely no need to pay for a wireless provider data plan. When you've got Geo and built-in or external GPS receiver, you've got all you need. GEO WILL CONTACT YOU With the new Mobile Geo Contact interface, not only can you lookup and call those listed in your phone's Contacts List, but you can also set the Contact's address as a destination or virtual position. GEO LETS YOU DABBLE WITH THE DETAILS When you open a POI's Details Screen, Mobile Geo lets you act on its information such as dialing its telephone number, sending an email, or browsing to its web page. GEO KEEPS YOU WARM Engage Mobile Geo's "Getting Warmer" function to gage the remaining distance and direction-heading to a specific destination or street. I'm selling Mobile Geo for $600, which is $295 off the regular price and includes the cost of the license transfer. Preferred payment methods are in order of priority: first, Bank of America direct deposit/transfer; second, PayPal; and third, check. After your payment clears, I will work out the license transfer and send you a link to download. If you're interested in purchasing my copy of Mobile Speak, I'll let it go for an additional $175, which is $120 off the regular price. I am currently not considering selling Mobile Speak by itself. Please send any questions via this e-mail address. Regards, Joe A. You need Mobile Speak to run Mobile Geo. For a list of compatible phones that run Mobile Speak, please visit: http://www.codefactory.es/en/phoneslist.asp?id=342 B. For information on Mobile Speak, please visit: http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=316 C. For information on Mobile Geo, please visit: http://www.senderogroup.com/products/shopmgeo.htm "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 17 20:57:56 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:57:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com><22676202-088E-4384-8C09-0207EC317A0E@gmail.com><646B539EE704413AA93BD1D2FFA57EA2@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <9D4A50BBCBB545C78693872C6260CD11@OwnerPC> Oh, I'll try that. -----Original Message----- From: Laura Glowacki Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 5:27 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Ashley, You need to click the "basic html" option located at the bottom of the page above the copyright information. But then you also, after that, need to scroll back up to the top of the page. Arrow down until you hear "you are currently viewing gmail in html". There are two links below that, and the second says something like "set basic html as default view." Then gmail will remember your html setting when viewing your email through the gmail site. HTH, Laura ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Ashley, You do? It remembers for me. On 3/17/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Ic, > That is not the case with educational institutions who use the > google email > platform. > You can switch to basic html which is what I do to read email; > otherwise no > links open and jaws does not read buttons. > But no gmail does NOT remember I want to keep it as basic html. > I have to > change that every time I log into the system! > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Ignasi Cambra > Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:41 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps > complaint > > In case it helps, the link you can use to switch to the more > accessible > version of google mail is located right before the copyright > notice at the > bottom of the gmail site. Log in, and look for it. It's called > "classic > html" or "basic html" or something like that. You only have to > do this once. > Whenever you log in after that, it will remember that you want > the basic > html site and not the regular one. > On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Elizabeth wrote: > >> >> Hello All, >> >> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I >> do know from >> my own personal experience that the Google applications used >> by some >> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to >> be true >> because my college uses the Google email application for its >> email system, >> >> and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google >> account, and as >> >> such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national >> office is >> choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the >> colleges have >> >> a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to >> disseminating >> electronic information. I believe it would be the >> responsibility of the >> college or university to ensure that the software programs >> they use are >> accessible to all students. >> >> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >> >> Elizabeth >> >> >>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>> complaint >>> >>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the >>> NFB not >>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with >>> google. I >>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against >>> the >>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, >>> probably, >>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about >>> some >>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? >>> Sounds like >>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki >>> wrote: >>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking >>>> feedback >>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still >>>> things >>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually >>>> approached >>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>> complaint >>>> >>>> >>>> I don't know, >>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has >>>> been on >>>> this very list about >>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>> >>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying >>>> to >>>> get attention. >>>> >>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>> >>>> Jorge >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>> >>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms >>>>> of >>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email >>>>> and >>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has >>>>> an >>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the >>>>> good >>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through >>>>> other >>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my >>>>> Mac, >>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get >>>>> my >>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar >>>>> and >>>>> add events etc. >>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have >>>>> formulated >>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should >>>>> be >>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by >>>>> blind >>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can >>>>> use >>>>> it...!! >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>> >>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>> >>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>> that problem. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jorge >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader >>>>>>> companies >>>>>>> doing >>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the >>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>> getting >>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever >>>>>>> refused >>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint >>>>>>>> National >>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible >>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as >>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) >>>>>>>> or >>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that >>>>>>>> could >>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>>> account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the >>>>>>> intended >>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine >>>>>>> is up >>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>> with these >>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and >>>>>>> destroy >>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible >>>>>>> operating >>>>>>> system, >>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>>> account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>>> account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your >>>>> account >>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From enews at codefactory.info Thu Mar 17 21:29:21 2011 From: enews at codefactory.info (Code Factory News (no reply)) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:29:21 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Mobile Speak 5.0 for Symbian is now available! Message-ID: Caroline Ragot - Marketing marketing at codefactory.es Mobile Speak 5 for Symbian Mobile Speak 5.0 for Symbian is now available! Support for Symbian^3, Support for Nokia Email, New Review Cursor feature Terrassa (Barcelona), Spain, March 17th, 2011 Mobile Speak 5.0, a free update for all users of Mobile Speak 4.0, is now available for download! Support for Symbian^3 Symbian^3 is simpler, faster and better. While this latest version of Symbian will remain familiar to existing Symbian users worldwide, it includes more than 250 new features and improvements, such as a simplified user interface, enhanced multimedia features, and more customization abilities. Mobile Speak supports all the Symbian^3 devices currently available: Nokia N8, Nokia E7, Nokia C7 and Nokia C6-01. The Nokia E7 is the only one with a slide-out four row QWERTY keyboard. It is a device designed primarily with the business user in mind. They all have an AMOLED capacitive touchscreen, 3.2 inches for the C6-01, 3.5 inches for the C7 and the N8, and 4 inches for the E7. The C6-01 is a compact touchscreen and the most budget-friendly. The C7 is very slim and has a sleek design. The N8 is the first Nokia Symbian^3. It features a 12 Megapixel camera and a full metal chassis with anodised scratch-proof paint to give the phone a really high-end feel. As the Nokia N8 and Nokia E7 do not have physical dial and hang up keys, Mobile Speak features two new gestures: slide down and left (in the shape of the letter "L" reversed) and slide down and right (letter "L"), which can be used as the Dial and Hang Up key respectively. Nokia Email As per the request of many users, Code Factory has added support for the new Nokia email application on many 3rd FP2 devices (e.g. N86, E52, E72, E5, C5) as well as touch devices (e.g. N97 mini, N8, E7). On touch devices, support is included also when reading emails in html format. The full email will be read by default, so it is not necessary to move down one line at a time to listen to the full email. Command shortcuts in reading layout (e.g. read by words, by sentences, by paragraphs, etc) are available when reading email. In addition, pressing joystick up / joystick down will speak the previous / next paragraph. Review Cursor Mobile Speak also features a new review cursor mode (Command + 3 to toggle). This is available on both touch screen and standard keyboard devices. Once the review cursor has been activated, you can navigate around the screen virtually using the joystick. Joystick up/down moves to the previous/next element, joystick left/right moves character by character in the element, while joystick enter will open the currently selected virtual element (where possible). More * Touch: Long press of # key in editors now switches between number/text writing mode. * Touch: Added support for Video and Photo browser lists. * Braille: Improved Braille Cursor mode. * Apps: Support for the latest version of TweetS60. * A large number of other improvements and bug fixes, as detailed in our User Manual here http://www.codefactory.es If you are a new user, download Mobile Speak 5 now at http://codefactory.es/en/downloads.asp?id=347 and try it for 30 days for free. If you are a user of a previous version from Mobile Speak 4.0 and wish to upgrade to Mobile Speak 5, contact your distributor to purchase an upgrade license. In addition to all the improvements and new features of Mobile Speak 4.0, 4.5, 4.6 and 5.0, if you purchase an upgrade license, you will also get Mobile Magnifier, Mobile DAISY Player, Color Recognizer and the Games for free! To consult the complete list of Code Factory's official distributors, visit http://www.codefactory.es/en/page.asp?id=351 To learn how to install or upgrade to a latest version of Mobile Speak, please consult the user guide at http://www.codefactory.es/download.asp?file=family_4/ms50_userguide_symbian.html To read more about Mobile Speak visit http://codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=318 About Code Factory Founded in 1998 and headquartered in Terrassa (Barcelona), Spain, Code Factory is the global leader committed to the development of products designed to eliminate barriers to the accessibility of mobile technology for the blind and visually impaired. Today, Code Factory is the leading provider of accessible mobile applications such as screen readers, screen magnifiers, and Braille interfaces. Code Factory's products are compatible with the widest range of mainstream mobile devices running on Symbian, Windows Mobile, BlackBerry Smartphones, and Android. Among Code Factory's customers are well known organizations for the blind such as ONCE in Spain, and carriers such as AT&T, Bouygues Telecom, SFR, TIM and Vodafone. For more information, feel free to contact Code Factory S.L.: Code Factory, S.L., Rambla d'Egara 148 2-2, 08221 Terrassa (Barcelona) HelpDesk, www.codefactory.es Code Factory, S.L. - 2011 From freespirit328 at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 21:32:18 2011 From: freespirit328 at gmail.com (Jennifer Aberdeen) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:32:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com><22676202-088E-4384-8C09-0207EC317A0E@gmail.com><646B539EE704413AA93BD1D2FFA57EA2@OwnerPC> Message-ID: You can set it to remember. Jen ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! www.youravon.com/jaberdeen Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative freespirit328 at gmail.com 401-644-5607 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 4:22 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > Ashley, > You do? It remembers for me. > > On 3/17/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Ic, >> That is not the case with educational institutions who use the google >> email >> platform. >> You can switch to basic html which is what I do to read email; otherwise >> no >> links open and jaws does not read buttons. >> But no gmail does NOT remember I want to keep it as basic html. I have to >> change that every time I log into the system! >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Ignasi Cambra >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:41 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> In case it helps, the link you can use to switch to the more accessible >> version of google mail is located right before the copyright notice at >> the >> bottom of the gmail site. Log in, and look for it. It's called "classic >> html" or "basic html" or something like that. You only have to do this >> once. >> Whenever you log in after that, it will remember that you want the basic >> html site and not the regular one. >> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> >>> >>> Hello All, >>> >>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know >>> from >>> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >>> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >>> because my college uses the Google email application for its email >>> system, >>> >>> and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and >>> as >>> >>> such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is >>> choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the colleges >>> have >>> >>> a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating >>> electronic information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the >>> college or university to ensure that the software programs they use are >>> accessible to all students. >>> >>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >>> >>> Elizabeth >>> >>> >>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>>> >>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>>> Best, >>>> Kirt >>>> >>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>>> complaint >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I don't know, >>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>>> this very list about >>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>>> >>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>>> get attention. >>>>> >>>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>>> >>>>> Jorge >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>>> add events etc. >>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>>> it...!! >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>>> that problem. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>>> doing >>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>>> with these >>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>>> system, >>>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke%40hotmail.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com > From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 17 21:33:22 2011 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Hai Nguyen Ly) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 16:33:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] [Iabs-talk] Mobile Geo at a Price You Can't Beat! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3BFB3ADD-3103-4715-B0DA-E46E9B988677@sbcglobal.net> I'll offer both MobileSpeak and mobile Geo for $700 even. On Mar 17, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: > Hello, > > I have the latest copy of Mobile Geo for sale with the North American maps. > Please note you'll need Mobile Speak for this product. The price follows > the description and is lower than anything you'll find from other companies. > Links to Mobile Speak and Mobile Geo are below my signature. > > With Mobile Geo, you can pinpoint your location, learn about the points of > interest (POIs) in your immediate vicinity, plan a route between specified > points of origin and destination, and get instructions on maneuvers about > waypoints along a route that you are following. With Mobile Geo, it's easy > to find the nearest train or bus stop and pull up their schedule! > > When you're on the move with Mobile Geo, be it at either 1 mile per hour or > 101 miles per hour, relax while Geo automatically announces upcoming > intersections, points of interests, city names and so much more; all through > the comfort and convenience of your mobile phone. Want privacy? No problem, > simply attach your favorite wired or Bluetooth headset to your phone and > "You're Ready to Go." > > GEO GIVES YOU VIRTUAL REALITY > Want to experience a real virtual reality? With the combined power and > technical resources of Code Factory and Sendero, use Mobile Geo to explore > your world without ever leaving home. That's right! Geo lets you preview a > route or visit a distant city, including its points of interests, with the > virtual flick of a real switch. > > GEO'S GOT YOUR BACK > Seamlessly slide Geo to the background when you want to make or answer a > telephone call, send text messages, read emails, surf the web, whatever and > whenever you want and Geo will continue to provide "LookAround" > announcements. > > GEO'S GOT VIBES > Not only will Geo navigate, listen, and reply with speech and audio > feedback, it will also shake you up. Geo will move your body as it tells you > how to move through your world with its innovative Morse Code based > vibratory feedback alert system. Deaf-blind travelers will find this feature > especially useful. > > GEO'S GOT POI POWER > Looking for a particular point of interest? With Mobile Geo, you have the > world's most powerful POI and intuitive mobile search engine at your > fingertips. Mobile Geo is the one and only GPS mobile software solution > that, in addition to the traditional search criteria such as name, street, > City, and web address, allows you to search for points of interests in a > specific direction of travel. > > > GEO IS INDEPENDENT > With Mobile Geo, no data plan? No problem. Because all of Mobile Geo's > active mapping and POI information is stored directly on your mobile phone, > there is absolutely no need to pay for a wireless provider data plan. When > you've got Geo and built-in or external GPS receiver, you've got all you > need. > > GEO WILL CONTACT YOU > With the new Mobile Geo Contact interface, not only can you lookup and call > those listed in your phone's Contacts List, but you can also set the > Contact's address as a destination or virtual position. > > GEO LETS YOU DABBLE WITH THE DETAILS > When you open a POI's Details Screen, Mobile Geo lets you act on its > information such as dialing its telephone number, sending an email, or > browsing to its web page. > > GEO KEEPS YOU WARM > Engage Mobile Geo's "Getting Warmer" function to gage the remaining distance > and direction-heading to a specific destination or street. > > I'm selling Mobile Geo for $600, which is $295 off the regular price and > includes the cost of the license transfer. Preferred payment methods are in > order of priority: first, Bank of America direct deposit/transfer; second, > PayPal; and third, check. After your payment clears, I will work out the > license transfer and send you a link to download. > > If you're interested in purchasing my copy of Mobile Speak, I'll let it go > for an additional $175, which is $120 off the regular price. I am currently > not considering selling Mobile Speak by itself. Please send any questions > via this e-mail address. > > Regards, > > Joe > > A. You need Mobile Speak to run Mobile Geo. For a list of compatible phones > that run Mobile Speak, please visit: > > http://www.codefactory.es/en/phoneslist.asp?id=342 > > B. For information on Mobile Speak, please visit: > > http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=316 > > C. For information on Mobile Geo, please visit: > > http://www.senderogroup.com/products/shopmgeo.htm > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > Iabs-talk mailing list > Iabs-talk at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/iabs-talk_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Iabs-talk: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/iabs-talk_nfbnet.org/gymnastdave%40sbcglobal.net From jorgeapaez at mac.com Thu Mar 17 22:08:36 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 18:08:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Iabs-talk] Mobile Geo at a Price You Can't Beat! In-Reply-To: <3BFB3ADD-3103-4715-B0DA-E46E9B988677@sbcglobal.net> References: <3BFB3ADD-3103-4715-B0DA-E46E9B988677@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <494B234E-7451-46D0-BE9A-459C52D350F8@mac.com> What OS? On Mar 17, 2011, at 5:33 PM, Hai Nguyen Ly wrote: > I'll offer both MobileSpeak and mobile Geo for $700 even. > On Mar 17, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> I have the latest copy of Mobile Geo for sale with the North American maps. >> Please note you'll need Mobile Speak for this product. The price follows >> the description and is lower than anything you'll find from other companies. >> Links to Mobile Speak and Mobile Geo are below my signature. >> >> With Mobile Geo, you can pinpoint your location, learn about the points of >> interest (POIs) in your immediate vicinity, plan a route between specified >> points of origin and destination, and get instructions on maneuvers about >> waypoints along a route that you are following. With Mobile Geo, it's easy >> to find the nearest train or bus stop and pull up their schedule! >> >> When you're on the move with Mobile Geo, be it at either 1 mile per hour or >> 101 miles per hour, relax while Geo automatically announces upcoming >> intersections, points of interests, city names and so much more; all through >> the comfort and convenience of your mobile phone. Want privacy? No problem, >> simply attach your favorite wired or Bluetooth headset to your phone and >> "You're Ready to Go." >> >> GEO GIVES YOU VIRTUAL REALITY >> Want to experience a real virtual reality? With the combined power and >> technical resources of Code Factory and Sendero, use Mobile Geo to explore >> your world without ever leaving home. That's right! Geo lets you preview a >> route or visit a distant city, including its points of interests, with the >> virtual flick of a real switch. >> >> GEO'S GOT YOUR BACK >> Seamlessly slide Geo to the background when you want to make or answer a >> telephone call, send text messages, read emails, surf the web, whatever and >> whenever you want and Geo will continue to provide "LookAround" >> announcements. >> >> GEO'S GOT VIBES >> Not only will Geo navigate, listen, and reply with speech and audio >> feedback, it will also shake you up. Geo will move your body as it tells you >> how to move through your world with its innovative Morse Code based >> vibratory feedback alert system. Deaf-blind travelers will find this feature >> especially useful. >> >> GEO'S GOT POI POWER >> Looking for a particular point of interest? With Mobile Geo, you have the >> world's most powerful POI and intuitive mobile search engine at your >> fingertips. Mobile Geo is the one and only GPS mobile software solution >> that, in addition to the traditional search criteria such as name, street, >> City, and web address, allows you to search for points of interests in a >> specific direction of travel. >> >> >> GEO IS INDEPENDENT >> With Mobile Geo, no data plan? No problem. Because all of Mobile Geo's >> active mapping and POI information is stored directly on your mobile phone, >> there is absolutely no need to pay for a wireless provider data plan. When >> you've got Geo and built-in or external GPS receiver, you've got all you >> need. >> >> GEO WILL CONTACT YOU >> With the new Mobile Geo Contact interface, not only can you lookup and call >> those listed in your phone's Contacts List, but you can also set the >> Contact's address as a destination or virtual position. >> >> GEO LETS YOU DABBLE WITH THE DETAILS >> When you open a POI's Details Screen, Mobile Geo lets you act on its >> information such as dialing its telephone number, sending an email, or >> browsing to its web page. >> >> GEO KEEPS YOU WARM >> Engage Mobile Geo's "Getting Warmer" function to gage the remaining distance >> and direction-heading to a specific destination or street. >> >> I'm selling Mobile Geo for $600, which is $295 off the regular price and >> includes the cost of the license transfer. Preferred payment methods are in >> order of priority: first, Bank of America direct deposit/transfer; second, >> PayPal; and third, check. After your payment clears, I will work out the >> license transfer and send you a link to download. >> >> If you're interested in purchasing my copy of Mobile Speak, I'll let it go >> for an additional $175, which is $120 off the regular price. I am currently >> not considering selling Mobile Speak by itself. Please send any questions >> via this e-mail address. >> >> Regards, >> >> Joe >> >> A. You need Mobile Speak to run Mobile Geo. For a list of compatible phones >> that run Mobile Speak, please visit: >> >> http://www.codefactory.es/en/phoneslist.asp?id=342 >> >> B. For information on Mobile Speak, please visit: >> >> http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=316 >> >> C. For information on Mobile Geo, please visit: >> >> http://www.senderogroup.com/products/shopmgeo.htm >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Iabs-talk mailing list >> Iabs-talk at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/iabs-talk_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Iabs-talk: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/iabs-talk_nfbnet.org/gymnastdave%40sbcglobal.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net Thu Mar 17 22:24:59 2011 From: gymnastdave at sbcglobal.net (Hai Nguyen Ly) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:24:59 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] [Iabs-talk] Mobile Geo at a Price You Can't Beat! In-Reply-To: <494B234E-7451-46D0-BE9A-459C52D350F8@mac.com> References: <3BFB3ADD-3103-4715-B0DA-E46E9B988677@sbcglobal.net> <494B234E-7451-46D0-BE9A-459C52D350F8@mac.com> Message-ID: <578F2E64-0D0F-4FB8-950A-7AB60FCE1B4B@sbcglobal.net> Mobile Geo is compatible with Windows Mobile devices. MobileSpeak will work on both Windows Mobile and Symbian handsets. On Mar 17, 2011, at 5:08 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > What OS? > > > On Mar 17, 2011, at 5:33 PM, Hai Nguyen Ly wrote: > >> I'll offer both MobileSpeak and mobile Geo for $700 even. >> On Mar 17, 2011, at 3:58 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: >> >>> Hello, >>> >>> I have the latest copy of Mobile Geo for sale with the North American maps. >>> Please note you'll need Mobile Speak for this product. The price follows >>> the description and is lower than anything you'll find from other companies. >>> Links to Mobile Speak and Mobile Geo are below my signature. >>> >>> With Mobile Geo, you can pinpoint your location, learn about the points of >>> interest (POIs) in your immediate vicinity, plan a route between specified >>> points of origin and destination, and get instructions on maneuvers about >>> waypoints along a route that you are following. With Mobile Geo, it's easy >>> to find the nearest train or bus stop and pull up their schedule! >>> >>> When you're on the move with Mobile Geo, be it at either 1 mile per hour or >>> 101 miles per hour, relax while Geo automatically announces upcoming >>> intersections, points of interests, city names and so much more; all through >>> the comfort and convenience of your mobile phone. Want privacy? No problem, >>> simply attach your favorite wired or Bluetooth headset to your phone and >>> "You're Ready to Go." >>> >>> GEO GIVES YOU VIRTUAL REALITY >>> Want to experience a real virtual reality? With the combined power and >>> technical resources of Code Factory and Sendero, use Mobile Geo to explore >>> your world without ever leaving home. That's right! Geo lets you preview a >>> route or visit a distant city, including its points of interests, with the >>> virtual flick of a real switch. >>> >>> GEO'S GOT YOUR BACK >>> Seamlessly slide Geo to the background when you want to make or answer a >>> telephone call, send text messages, read emails, surf the web, whatever and >>> whenever you want and Geo will continue to provide "LookAround" >>> announcements. >>> >>> GEO'S GOT VIBES >>> Not only will Geo navigate, listen, and reply with speech and audio >>> feedback, it will also shake you up. Geo will move your body as it tells you >>> how to move through your world with its innovative Morse Code based >>> vibratory feedback alert system. Deaf-blind travelers will find this feature >>> especially useful. >>> >>> GEO'S GOT POI POWER >>> Looking for a particular point of interest? With Mobile Geo, you have the >>> world's most powerful POI and intuitive mobile search engine at your >>> fingertips. Mobile Geo is the one and only GPS mobile software solution >>> that, in addition to the traditional search criteria such as name, street, >>> City, and web address, allows you to search for points of interests in a >>> specific direction of travel. >>> >>> >>> GEO IS INDEPENDENT >>> With Mobile Geo, no data plan? No problem. Because all of Mobile Geo's >>> active mapping and POI information is stored directly on your mobile phone, >>> there is absolutely no need to pay for a wireless provider data plan. When >>> you've got Geo and built-in or external GPS receiver, you've got all you >>> need. >>> >>> GEO WILL CONTACT YOU >>> With the new Mobile Geo Contact interface, not only can you lookup and call >>> those listed in your phone's Contacts List, but you can also set the >>> Contact's address as a destination or virtual position. >>> >>> GEO LETS YOU DABBLE WITH THE DETAILS >>> When you open a POI's Details Screen, Mobile Geo lets you act on its >>> information such as dialing its telephone number, sending an email, or >>> browsing to its web page. >>> >>> GEO KEEPS YOU WARM >>> Engage Mobile Geo's "Getting Warmer" function to gage the remaining distance >>> and direction-heading to a specific destination or street. >>> >>> I'm selling Mobile Geo for $600, which is $295 off the regular price and >>> includes the cost of the license transfer. Preferred payment methods are in >>> order of priority: first, Bank of America direct deposit/transfer; second, >>> PayPal; and third, check. After your payment clears, I will work out the >>> license transfer and send you a link to download. >>> >>> If you're interested in purchasing my copy of Mobile Speak, I'll let it go >>> for an additional $175, which is $120 off the regular price. I am currently >>> not considering selling Mobile Speak by itself. Please send any questions >>> via this e-mail address. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> A. You need Mobile Speak to run Mobile Geo. For a list of compatible phones >>> that run Mobile Speak, please visit: >>> >>> http://www.codefactory.es/en/phoneslist.asp?id=342 >>> >>> B. For information on Mobile Speak, please visit: >>> >>> http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=316 >>> >>> C. For information on Mobile Geo, please visit: >>> >>> http://www.senderogroup.com/products/shopmgeo.htm >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Iabs-talk mailing list >>> Iabs-talk at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/iabs-talk_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Iabs-talk: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/iabs-talk_nfbnet.org/gymnastdave%40sbcglobal.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gymnastdave%40sbcglobal.net From z.dreicer at emissives.com Thu Mar 17 23:43:19 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 17:43:19 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] ti-83 calculator help! Message-ID: Hi, I am wondering if a graphing calculator for the computer would be accessible. My teacher has a link to it on her page. Follow these steps to get there: 1. Go to http://laschools.net/lahs click on teacher pages. Keep tapping r until you hear "Richardson, Elizabeth." After loading her page, browse with your normal commands till you hear "to download a ti-83 silver calculator, ..." and follow that link. I need to know from there which one to download, and if it's accessible. The sooner, the better! Thanks! sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex From dandrews at visi.com Fri Mar 18 01:43:03 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 20:43:03 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: APH and Sendero Group Launch Talking PC Maps Software makes location details accessible Message-ID: > >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE >March 17, 2011 > >CONTACT: >Roberta Williams, (502) 899-2357, rwilliams at aph.org > >Louisville, KY - The American Printing House for >the Blind (APH) in Louisville, Kentucky, and the >Sendero Group LLC, pioneers in the development >of location information systems for people with >vision impairments headquartered in Davis >California, are proud to announce the new APH >Talking PC Maps. APH is the exclusive >distributor of Talking PC Maps, developed to meet APH specifications. > >Designed to be used by individual consumers, >orientation and mobility specialists, and >teachers of persons who are visually impaired, >this software provides spoken and on-screen map >data and 12 million points of interest for U.S. >states, territories, and Canada on one flash >drive. It speaks on any computer, using Windows™ >XP or later whether or not the computer has >screen reading software installed. It does not >give information about a user’s physical >location; it is not a GPS system. Instead, it >gives a verbal description of physical space >and what it contains that is available in no >other way except through eyesight. It gives >persons with visual impairments the same >information available to sighted persons through >incidental learning when they look at maps, >street signs, and signage on buildings. > >APH Talking PC Maps is an excellent tool for >both classroom and orientation and mobility >instructors. As the first map package that >tracks the side of street on which the virtual >traveler walks, this software simulates actual >travel, allowing the student to press keys for >appropriate turns and street crossings in the >process of map exploration. Points of Interest >can be explored, searched, or announced as the student virtually passes them. >This unique software also allows the user to: >* set a destination by street address or Point >of Interest (POI) and track the distance and >compass heading to that destination >* save and print or emboss pedestrian or vehicle routes >* add customized descriptive information about a particular site on the map >For more suggested uses, user requirements, and >other details visit APH Shopping at http://shop.aph.org and search for PC Maps > >About the American Printing House for the Blind: >The American Printing House for the Blind, a >501(c)(3) non-profit organization, is the >world's largest company devoted solely to >researching, developing, and manufacturing >products for people who are blind or visually >impaired. Founded in 1858, it is the oldest >organization of its kind in the United States. >Under the 1879 federal Act to Promote the >Education of the Blind, APH is the official >supplier of educational materials for visually >impaired students in the U.S. who are working at less than college level. > >APH manufactures textbooks and magazines in >braille, large print, recorded, and digital >formats. APH also designs and manufactures >hundreds of educational, recreational, and daily living products. > >The American Printing House for the Blind, Inc. >is located at 1839 Frankfort Avenue in >Louisville, Kentucky. For more information, call >(502) 895-2405 or log on to http://www.aph.org. > >About Sendero Group LLC >Sendero Group is the developer of the first >accessible GPS and talking map software. GPS >products "Powered by Sendero" software provide >access to detailed street and business location >information. The blind traveler can now be a >co-pilot, not just a passive passenger in a car. >He or she can keep the taxi driver honest, enjoy >hearing about the sites and businesses being >passed and know independently when to get off >the bus. Students can also chart custom routes >across campus or hikers can do the same in the woods. > >Sendero staff, most of whom are visually >impaired, know from personal and professional >experience that orientation and mobility skills >and tools for blind folks are key to the >enjoyment and success in all walks of life. >Sendero is first and foremost "the GPS company" >as well as distributing other innovative adaptive technology. > >Sendero Group is located at 429 F Street, Suite >4, Davis, CA 95616. For more information, call >530-757-6800 or visit http://www.senderogroup.com. > > > >Contact Sendero Group: >http://www.senderogroup.com >Toll free phone (US and Canada): 1-888-757-6810 >Direct phone: +1 530 757-6800 From aphelps at BISM.org Fri Mar 18 01:52:49 2011 From: aphelps at BISM.org (Amy Phelps) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 20:52:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Independence 2011 Message-ID: The birds are singing, the sun is out, it is time to start making plans for the summer and Independence 2011 is the place to be! Please be sure to help spread the word about this fantastic summer program for blind/low vision youth entering into the 10th, 11th, and 12th grades. What is Independence 2011? Independence 2011 is a seven-week residential training program that provides blind and low vision teens with the nonvisual skills and confidence to help transition from high school to college and/or employment. * Learn to travel independently using a long white cane * Experience real-world career opportunities * Two-week paid work experience * Learn to read and write using Braille * Develop computer skills through assistive technology * Reside in campus apartments with blind instructor/mentors * Expand cooking, cleaning, and shopping skills * Attend the NFB Youth Slam, a STEP Leadership Academy * Develop a positive attitude about blindness * Attend the 2011 NFB national convention in Orlando, FL * Tour Baltimore, Washington D.C., and Disney World * Participate in recreational and athletic activities Who Can Apply? Legally blind high school students who are entering into the 10th, 11th, and 12th grades in the fall of 2011. Applicants should have an open case with their state’s vocational rehabilitation or have an alternative funding source. Where? Again we will return to Towson University where the students will live in apartments on campus Sponsored by? Blind Industries and Services of Maryland When? June 19 – August 5 For more information or to apply, please contact Amy Phelps at 410-737-2642 or aphelps at bism.org Warm regards, Amy C. Phelps, CRC, NOMC Help sponsor our youth program activities Donate Check out information about our summer youth program: Independence 2011 Take the NCLB at BISM in Baltimore on March 26. For information: National Certification in Literary Braille Blind Industries and Services of Maryland 3345 Washington Blvd Baltimore, MD 21227 Phone: 410-737-2642 Mobile: 410-274-1647 Fax: 410-737-2689 Toll Free: 888-322-4567 E-mail: aphelps at bism.org "...given proper training and opportunity, the average blind person can do the average job in the average place of business and do it as well as his or her sighted neighbor..." Freedom for the Blind, James H. Omvig Confidentiality Note: The information contained in this message may be privileged and confidential and protected from disclosure. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. From jsorozco at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 20:50:22 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 16:50:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority Message-ID: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> Dear all, I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate or division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this majority rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It is my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be blind and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made since in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still on the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and coming generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly blind organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed to bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind controlled by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of the blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local chapters are blind." ... "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the National Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the president of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under procedures to be established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of the Blind shall issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national president the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay to the national president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its voting members are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at least a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state affiliate and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not merely be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to promote the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their local chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the Federation." Regards, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Mar 18 20:54:44 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 16:54:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority In-Reply-To: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> References: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> Message-ID: <1B7E72DD-704C-4D49-9E83-A0B48CA2DBE4@mac.com> Completely agree with the constitution. On Mar 18, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: > Dear all, > > I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate or > division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this majority > rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It is > my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be blind > and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people > from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made since > in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but > seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still on > the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and coming > generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly blind > organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed to > bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our > cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your > views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: > > "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind controlled > by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of the > blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting > members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local chapters > are blind." > > ... > > "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the National > Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the > president > of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a > list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under procedures to > be > established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the > application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of the > Blind shall > issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the > national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national > president > the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the > constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay to > the national > president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no > organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its > voting members > are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at least > a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state > affiliate > and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not merely > be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to > promote > the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their local > chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the > Federation." > > Regards, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From brownbears at mchsi.com Fri Mar 18 21:07:01 2011 From: brownbears at mchsi.com (Miranda Morse) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 16:07:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority References: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> Message-ID: <676915AD2E304595B8C2DB3CE2FD2035@MIRANDA> I know why this rule exists and understand why, but my issue is when a sighted person wants to join, we are supposed to turn them down if it will put us over the percentage rate. I do not think that is right. We had this come up last year and we had to count all of our members before we could vote in a new member that was sighted. I just think that if we turned to many people away that it would look bad on our organization and we are all about educating the public, but if we turn people away our communities will think we don't want involvement other then ourselves. Miranda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 3:50 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority > Dear all, > > I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate > or > division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this > majority > rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It is > my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be > blind > and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people > from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made > since > in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but > seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still > on > the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and coming > generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly blind > organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed to > bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our > cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your > views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: > > "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind > controlled > by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of > the > blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting > members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local chapters > are blind." > > ... > > "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the National > Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the > president > of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a > list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under procedures > to > be > established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the > application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of the > Blind shall > issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the > national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national > president > the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the > constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay to > the national > president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no > organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its > voting members > are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at > least > a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state > affiliate > and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not merely > be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to > promote > the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their > local > chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the > Federation." > > Regards, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brownbears%40mchsi.com From jorgeapaez at mac.com Fri Mar 18 21:09:06 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:09:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority In-Reply-To: <676915AD2E304595B8C2DB3CE2FD2035@MIRANDA> References: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> <676915AD2E304595B8C2DB3CE2FD2035@MIRANDA> Message-ID: <15D2C523-E8DC-441F-A903-279641EEA4A4@mac.com> Miranda: I understand your points, but under the constitution, going over majority would mean the sighted have the major vote, which would defeat the NFB's purpose for existing. Jorge On Mar 18, 2011, at 5:07 PM, Miranda Morse wrote: > I know why this rule exists and understand why, but my issue is when a sighted person wants to join, we are supposed to turn them down if it will put us over the percentage rate. I do not think that is right. > We had this come up last year and we had to count all of our members before we could vote in a new member that was sighted. I just think that if we turned to many people away that it would look bad on our organization and we are all about educating the public, but if we turn people away our communities will think we don't want involvement other then ourselves. > > Miranda > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 3:50 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority > > >> Dear all, >> >> I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate or >> division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this majority >> rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It is >> my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be blind >> and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people >> from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made since >> in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but >> seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still on >> the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and coming >> generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly blind >> organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed to >> bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our >> cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your >> views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: >> >> "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind controlled >> by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of the >> blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting >> members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local chapters >> are blind." >> >> ... >> >> "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the National >> Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the >> president >> of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a >> list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under procedures to >> be >> established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the >> application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of the >> Blind shall >> issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the >> national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national >> president >> the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the >> constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay to >> the national >> president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no >> organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its >> voting members >> are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at least >> a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state >> affiliate >> and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not merely >> be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to >> promote >> the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their local >> chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the >> Federation." >> >> Regards, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brownbears%40mchsi.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 21:14:23 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:14:23 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority In-Reply-To: <1B7E72DD-704C-4D49-9E83-A0B48CA2DBE4@mac.com> References: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> <1B7E72DD-704C-4D49-9E83-A0B48CA2DBE4@mac.com> Message-ID: Hi all, As you all may well know, every state affiliate, state chapter/division, national division and even the national board it's self requires that the majority of it's members and members of board of directors and officers be blind, except that in the case of the parents division, that requirement was waved. I think that that requirement should be kept in place, but that we should look to recruit sighted members into our organization. The recruitment of these members should not be utilized as nor viewed as a reason to back- peddle on our philossophical views on blindness, but to better educate and strenthin our cause and belieffs in our ability to collectivly act as blind people, and our ability to work with sighted folks who believe in what we do. my view of any movement, and of any organization that is a part of or fuels a movement, is that while they may have an ethnic, gender, or other such majority, they also have a minority of people who believe in the cause in just the same way the majority does. This is a very healthy thing, to me. just some thoughts, Darian On 3/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Completely agree with the constitution. > > > On Mar 18, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate >> or >> division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this >> majority >> rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It is >> my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be >> blind >> and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people >> from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made >> since >> in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but >> seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still >> on >> the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and coming >> generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly blind >> organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed to >> bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our >> cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your >> views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: >> >> "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind >> controlled >> by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of >> the >> blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting >> members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local chapters >> are blind." >> >> ... >> >> "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the National >> Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the >> president >> of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a >> list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under procedures >> to >> be >> established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the >> application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of the >> Blind shall >> issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the >> national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national >> president >> the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the >> constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay to >> the national >> president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no >> organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its >> voting members >> are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at >> least >> a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state >> affiliate >> and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not merely >> be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to >> promote >> the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their >> local >> chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the >> Federation." >> >> Regards, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From nabs.president at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 21:24:32 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 15:24:32 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority In-Reply-To: References: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> <1B7E72DD-704C-4D49-9E83-A0B48CA2DBE4@mac.com> Message-ID: I think we should welcome sighted members-up to 49% of our membership, that is. In decent-sized affiliates, it seems entirely possible to have a blind majority and still include several sighted members, maybe even a few sighted people on the board. Again, another "both-and" situation. The only exception I might see is for very small chapters that have, say, ten members, and the additional joining of one sighted couple would push the majority toward the sighted. Perhaps exceptions could be made for these very small chapters, or the majority rule should apply to affiliates and national divisions only. Arielle On 3/18/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Hi all, > As you all may well know, every state affiliate, state > chapter/division, national division and even the national board it's > self requires that the majority of it's members and members of board > of directors and officers be blind, except that in the case of the > parents division, that requirement was waved. > > I think that that requirement should be kept in place, but that we > should look to recruit sighted members into our organization. > The recruitment of these members should not be utilized as nor viewed > as a reason to back- peddle on our philossophical views on > blindness, but to better educate and strenthin our cause and belieffs > in our ability to collectivly act as blind people, and our ability to > work with sighted folks who believe in what we do. > > my view of any movement, and of any organization that is a part of > or fuels a movement, is that while they may have an ethnic, gender, > or other such majority, they also have a minority of people who > believe in the cause in just the same way the majority does. This > is a very healthy thing, to me. > > just some thoughts, > Darian > > On 3/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Completely agree with the constitution. >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate >>> or >>> division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this >>> majority >>> rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It >>> is >>> my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be >>> blind >>> and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people >>> from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made >>> since >>> in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but >>> seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still >>> on >>> the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and coming >>> generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly >>> blind >>> organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed >>> to >>> bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our >>> cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your >>> views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: >>> >>> "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind >>> controlled >>> by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of >>> the >>> blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting >>> members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local >>> chapters >>> are blind." >>> >>> ... >>> >>> "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the National >>> Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the >>> president >>> of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a >>> list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under procedures >>> to >>> be >>> established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the >>> application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of the >>> Blind shall >>> issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the >>> national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national >>> president >>> the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the >>> constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay to >>> the national >>> president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no >>> organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its >>> voting members >>> are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at >>> least >>> a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state >>> affiliate >>> and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not >>> merely >>> be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to >>> promote >>> the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their >>> local >>> chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the >>> Federation." >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>> sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 21:27:46 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:27:46 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority In-Reply-To: References: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> <1B7E72DD-704C-4D49-9E83-A0B48CA2DBE4@mac.com> Message-ID: Miranda has a valid point, though I am not sure how often this is the case across the organization. I know this is kind of petty, but the 51 percent rule really applies to "active" voting members, or that's how I've always understood it to be. If that's indeed the case, any sighted person falling outside of that number can be a "supporting member" (or non-voting). If one really thinks about it, how often do we vote on things on the division level? On the local chapter level, you may hold more votes, but how many of them are very key votes? (then again, the closest chapter to me doesn't meet, lol.) respectfully, Darian just On 3/18/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Hi all, > As you all may well know, every state affiliate, state > chapter/division, national division and even the national board it's > self requires that the majority of it's members and members of board > of directors and officers be blind, except that in the case of the > parents division, that requirement was waved. > > I think that that requirement should be kept in place, but that we > should look to recruit sighted members into our organization. > The recruitment of these members should not be utilized as nor viewed > as a reason to back- peddle on our philossophical views on > blindness, but to better educate and strenthin our cause and belieffs > in our ability to collectivly act as blind people, and our ability to > work with sighted folks who believe in what we do. > > my view of any movement, and of any organization that is a part of > or fuels a movement, is that while they may have an ethnic, gender, > or other such majority, they also have a minority of people who > believe in the cause in just the same way the majority does. This > is a very healthy thing, to me. > > just some thoughts, > Darian > > On 3/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Completely agree with the constitution. >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate >>> or >>> division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this >>> majority >>> rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It >>> is >>> my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be >>> blind >>> and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people >>> from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made >>> since >>> in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but >>> seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still >>> on >>> the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and >>> coming >>> generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly >>> blind >>> organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed >>> to >>> bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our >>> cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your >>> views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: >>> >>> "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind >>> controlled >>> by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of >>> the >>> blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting >>> members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local >>> chapters >>> are blind." >>> >>> ... >>> >>> "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the >>> National >>> Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the >>> president >>> of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a >>> list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under >>> procedures >>> to >>> be >>> established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the >>> application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of >>> the >>> Blind shall >>> issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the >>> national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national >>> president >>> the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the >>> constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay >>> to >>> the national >>> president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no >>> organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its >>> voting members >>> are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at >>> least >>> a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state >>> affiliate >>> and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not >>> merely >>> be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to >>> promote >>> the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their >>> local >>> chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the >>> Federation." >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>> sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 21:30:43 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 14:30:43 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority In-Reply-To: References: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> <1B7E72DD-704C-4D49-9E83-A0B48CA2DBE4@mac.com> Message-ID: To Arielle's post- and that's why we have amendments, lol. On 3/18/11, Darian Smith wrote: > Miranda has a valid point, though I am not sure how often this is > the case across the organization. > I know this is kind of petty, but the 51 percent rule really applies > to "active" voting members, or that's how I've always understood it > to be. If that's indeed the case, any sighted person falling outside > of that number can be a "supporting member" (or non-voting). If > one really thinks about it, how often do we vote on things on the > division level? On the local chapter level, you may hold more > votes, but how many of them are very key votes? (then again, the > closest chapter to me doesn't meet, lol.) > respectfully, > Darian > > just > > On 3/18/11, Darian Smith wrote: >> Hi all, >> As you all may well know, every state affiliate, state >> chapter/division, national division and even the national board it's >> self requires that the majority of it's members and members of board >> of directors and officers be blind, except that in the case of the >> parents division, that requirement was waved. >> >> I think that that requirement should be kept in place, but that we >> should look to recruit sighted members into our organization. >> The recruitment of these members should not be utilized as nor viewed >> as a reason to back- peddle on our philossophical views on >> blindness, but to better educate and strenthin our cause and belieffs >> in our ability to collectivly act as blind people, and our ability to >> work with sighted folks who believe in what we do. >> >> my view of any movement, and of any organization that is a part of >> or fuels a movement, is that while they may have an ethnic, gender, >> or other such majority, they also have a minority of people who >> believe in the cause in just the same way the majority does. This >> is a very healthy thing, to me. >> >> just some thoughts, >> Darian >> >> On 3/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Completely agree with the constitution. >>> >>> >>> On Mar 18, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, >>>> affiliate >>>> or >>>> division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this >>>> majority >>>> rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It >>>> is >>>> my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be >>>> blind >>>> and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted >>>> people >>>> from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made >>>> since >>>> in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but >>>> seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is >>>> still >>>> on >>>> the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and >>>> coming >>>> generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly >>>> blind >>>> organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed >>>> to >>>> bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our >>>> cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your >>>> views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: >>>> >>>> "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind >>>> controlled >>>> by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization >>>> of >>>> the >>>> blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting >>>> members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local >>>> chapters >>>> are blind." >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the >>>> National >>>> Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to >>>> the >>>> president >>>> of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and >>>> a >>>> list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under >>>> procedures >>>> to >>>> be >>>> established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the >>>> application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of >>>> the >>>> Blind shall >>>> issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the >>>> national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national >>>> president >>>> the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the >>>> constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay >>>> to >>>> the national >>>> president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no >>>> organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of >>>> its >>>> voting members >>>> are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at >>>> least >>>> a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the >>>> state >>>> affiliate >>>> and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not >>>> merely >>>> be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work >>>> to >>>> promote >>>> the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their >>>> local >>>> chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the >>>> Federation." >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >>>> sleeves, >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> — Robert Byrne >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From mcikeyc at aol.com Fri Mar 18 23:24:06 2011 From: mcikeyc at aol.com (Michelle Clark) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 19:24:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Confused? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201103182324.p2INO75q018872@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> All, I can speak first hand about a university that has not done what is best for students who are blind or low vision in regards to using another platform and that is Blackboard. It took the NFB to work with Blackboard to come up with a comparable version but the school I began my class work did not have current plans to move to that platform. So, what did the NFB do? Went after them! This case is similar. Just because the NFB went after an issue in one manner, it does not mean that that is the method that has to be used all the time. We do have persons leading us who have great strategic minds and think things through prior to moving forward. In regards to this, I compare it to Unions. When a Union makes a contract, all who fall under the umbrella of a certain job title will reap the benefits. It does not matter if the person is a member, hate the Union or not. Even may think that the leaders of the Union are fools, but when the raises come, all partake and go straight to the bank. Think of this as very similar. So, I am not confused. Michelle From lilrichie411 at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 23:59:13 2011 From: lilrichie411 at gmail.com (Jordan Richardson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 18:59:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority In-Reply-To: References: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> <1B7E72DD-704C-4D49-9E83-A0B48CA2DBE4@mac.com> Message-ID: Hi all, I believe that, because of the way that the organization has grown over time, we will always have a majority of blind people even though we may invite more sighted people into the organization. Seeing the NFB as comparable to the black civil rights movement, when they first started I am sure that sit ins and other assemblies were all black people, but when the movement grew larger, and started to expand, more and more white people joined the cause, and to my knowledge they never had a rule about a majority of black people making up the movement. Also, regarding the parents division, what would happen when so many parents remain members after their children are adults that the ratio of blind to sighted member begans to come closer and closer to equal. Just my two cents. Any thoughts? Respectfully, Jordan Richardson President, Minnesota Association of Blind Students On 18 March 2011 16:30, Darian Smith wrote: > To Arielle's post- and that's why we have amendments, lol. > > On 3/18/11, Darian Smith wrote: > > Miranda has a valid point, though I am not sure how often this is > > the case across the organization. > > I know this is kind of petty, but the 51 percent rule really applies > > to "active" voting members, or that's how I've always understood it > > to be. If that's indeed the case, any sighted person falling outside > > of that number can be a "supporting member" (or non-voting). If > > one really thinks about it, how often do we vote on things on the > > division level? On the local chapter level, you may hold more > > votes, but how many of them are very key votes? (then again, the > > closest chapter to me doesn't meet, lol.) > > respectfully, > > Darian > > > > just > > > > On 3/18/11, Darian Smith wrote: > >> Hi all, > >> As you all may well know, every state affiliate, state > >> chapter/division, national division and even the national board it's > >> self requires that the majority of it's members and members of board > >> of directors and officers be blind, except that in the case of the > >> parents division, that requirement was waved. > >> > >> I think that that requirement should be kept in place, but that we > >> should look to recruit sighted members into our organization. > >> The recruitment of these members should not be utilized as nor viewed > >> as a reason to back- peddle on our philossophical views on > >> blindness, but to better educate and strenthin our cause and belieffs > >> in our ability to collectivly act as blind people, and our ability to > >> work with sighted folks who believe in what we do. > >> > >> my view of any movement, and of any organization that is a part of > >> or fuels a movement, is that while they may have an ethnic, gender, > >> or other such majority, they also have a minority of people who > >> believe in the cause in just the same way the majority does. This > >> is a very healthy thing, to me. > >> > >> just some thoughts, > >> Darian > >> > >> On 3/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>> Completely agree with the constitution. > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 18, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: > >>> > >>>> Dear all, > >>>> > >>>> I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, > >>>> affiliate > >>>> or > >>>> division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this > >>>> majority > >>>> rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. > It > >>>> is > >>>> my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be > >>>> blind > >>>> and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted > >>>> people > >>>> from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made > >>>> since > >>>> in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, > but > >>>> seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is > >>>> still > >>>> on > >>>> the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and > >>>> coming > >>>> generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly > >>>> blind > >>>> organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be > allowed > >>>> to > >>>> bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote > our > >>>> cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear > your > >>>> views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: > >>>> > >>>> "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind > >>>> controlled > >>>> by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization > >>>> of > >>>> the > >>>> blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its > voting > >>>> members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local > >>>> chapters > >>>> are blind." > >>>> > >>>> ... > >>>> > >>>> "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the > >>>> National > >>>> Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to > >>>> the > >>>> president > >>>> of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and > >>>> a > >>>> list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under > >>>> procedures > >>>> to > >>>> be > >>>> established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the > >>>> application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of > >>>> the > >>>> Blind shall > >>>> issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of > the > >>>> national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national > >>>> president > >>>> the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to > the > >>>> constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay > >>>> to > >>>> the national > >>>> president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no > >>>> organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of > >>>> its > >>>> voting members > >>>> are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at > >>>> least > >>>> a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the > >>>> state > >>>> affiliate > >>>> and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not > >>>> merely > >>>> be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work > >>>> to > >>>> promote > >>>> the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their > >>>> local > >>>> chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the > >>>> Federation." > >>>> > >>>> Regards, > >>>> > >>>> Joe > >>>> > >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their > >>>> sleeves, > >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>>> nabs-l: > >>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Darian Smith > >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth > >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > >> > >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > >> > >> — Robert Byrne > >> > > > > > > -- > > Darian Smith > > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > > > — Robert Byrne > > > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lilrichie411%40gmail.com > -- Jordan Richardson President, Minnesota Association of Blind Students lilrichie411 at gmail.com "It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men." ~*Frederick Douglass* From kramc11 at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 00:01:57 2011 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 20:01:57 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority In-Reply-To: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> References: <5D5B9DBA2EEF4896A21D09429A1A4664@Rufus> Message-ID: Let as many sighted people join as they want, just have there vote worth 50% or something like that, or have them join in a non voting capacity. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 4:50 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority > Dear all, > > I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate > or > division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this > majority > rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It is > my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be > blind > and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people > from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made > since > in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but > seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still > on > the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and coming > generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly blind > organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed to > bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our > cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your > views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: > > "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind > controlled > by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of > the > blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting > members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local chapters > are blind." > > ... > > "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the National > Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the > president > of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a > list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under procedures > to > be > established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the > application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of the > Blind shall > issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the > national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national > president > the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the > constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay to > the national > president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no > organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its > voting members > are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at > least > a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state > affiliate > and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not merely > be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to > promote > the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their > local > chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the > Federation." > > Regards, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com From serenacucco at verizon.net Sat Mar 19 00:16:06 2011 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena Cucco) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 20:16:06 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2DB7CF7168DD4A7895AA56E3AFF25E80@SerenaPC> Well put, Darian. Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Darian Smith Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 5:14 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind Majority Hi all, As you all may well know, every state affiliate, state chapter/division, national division and even the national board it's self requires that the majority of it's members and members of board of directors and officers be blind, except that in the case of the parents division, that requirement was waved. I think that that requirement should be kept in place, but that we should look to recruit sighted members into our organization. The recruitment of these members should not be utilized as nor viewed as a reason to back- peddle on our philossophical views on blindness, but to better educate and strenthin our cause and belieffs in our ability to collectivly act as blind people, and our ability to work with sighted folks who believe in what we do. my view of any movement, and of any organization that is a part of or fuels a movement, is that while they may have an ethnic, gender, or other such majority, they also have a minority of people who believe in the cause in just the same way the majority does. This is a very healthy thing, to me. just some thoughts, Darian On 3/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Completely agree with the constitution. > > > On Mar 18, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: > >> Dear all, >> >> I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate >> or >> division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this >> majority >> rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It is >> my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be >> blind >> and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people >> from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made >> since >> in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but >> seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still >> on >> the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and coming >> generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly blind >> organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed to >> bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our >> cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your >> views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: >> >> "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind >> controlled >> by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of >> the >> blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting >> members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local chapters >> are blind." >> >> ... >> >> "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the National >> Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the >> president >> of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a >> list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under procedures >> to >> be >> established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the >> application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of the >> Blind shall >> issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the >> national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national >> president >> the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the >> constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay to >> the national >> president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no >> organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its >> voting members >> are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at >> least >> a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state >> affiliate >> and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not merely >> be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to >> promote >> the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their >> local >> chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the >> Federation." >> >> Regards, >> >> Joe >> >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.co m > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. - Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo n.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 00:49:35 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 18:49:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority In-Reply-To: <2DB7CF7168DD4A7895AA56E3AFF25E80@SerenaPC> References: <2DB7CF7168DD4A7895AA56E3AFF25E80@SerenaPC> Message-ID: To all, The constitution makes sense to me. Maybe chapters needing exceptions (as in Miranda's case) could apply for a waver with the state board, which would need to aprove with at least a two thirds majority, or something like that. We're the National Federation of the Blind, after all, not the National Federation for the Blind. I wouldn't change the constitution, except to maybe ammend it for the state board to aprove exceptions for local chapters. Best, Kirt On 3/18/11, Serena Cucco wrote: > Well put, Darian. > > Serena > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Darian Smith > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 5:14 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind Majority > > Hi all, > As you all may well know, every state affiliate, state > chapter/division, national division and even the national board it's > self requires that the majority of it's members and members of board > of directors and officers be blind, except that in the case of the > parents division, that requirement was waved. > > I think that that requirement should be kept in place, but that we > should look to recruit sighted members into our organization. > The recruitment of these members should not be utilized as nor viewed > as a reason to back- peddle on our philossophical views on > blindness, but to better educate and strenthin our cause and belieffs > in our ability to collectivly act as blind people, and our ability to > work with sighted folks who believe in what we do. > > my view of any movement, and of any organization that is a part of > or fuels a movement, is that while they may have an ethnic, gender, > or other such majority, they also have a minority of people who > believe in the cause in just the same way the majority does. This > is a very healthy thing, to me. > > just some thoughts, > Darian > > On 3/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Completely agree with the constitution. >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: >> >>> Dear all, >>> >>> I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate >>> or >>> division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this >>> majority >>> rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It > is >>> my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be >>> blind >>> and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people >>> from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made >>> since >>> in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but >>> seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still >>> on >>> the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and coming >>> generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly > blind >>> organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed > to >>> bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our >>> cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your >>> views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: >>> >>> "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind >>> controlled >>> by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of >>> the >>> blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting >>> members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local > chapters >>> are blind." >>> >>> ... >>> >>> "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the National >>> Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the >>> president >>> of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a >>> list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under procedures >>> to >>> be >>> established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the >>> application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of the >>> Blind shall >>> issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the >>> national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national >>> president >>> the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the >>> constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay to >>> the national >>> president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no >>> organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its >>> voting members >>> are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at >>> least >>> a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state >>> affiliate >>> and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not > merely >>> be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to >>> promote >>> the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their >>> local >>> chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the >>> Federation." >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Joe >>> >>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their > sleeves, >>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.co > m >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > - Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo > n.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Sat Mar 19 03:55:21 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 20:55:21 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Yes, you can enable gmail to remember your "Basic HTML" setting. 1. first, press enter on your basic HTML view link or if using JAWS, go to your links list and press B for basic HTML 2. Once you are in basic HTML, press enter on a link called "set Basic HTML as default view" or if using JAWS go to your link list and hit S for "set basic HTML as default view" and this will permanently remember your Basic html setting every time you log in. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Thu, 17 Mar 2011 15:44:51 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >Ic, >That is not the case with educational institutions who use the google email >platform. >You can switch to basic html which is what I do to read email; otherwise no >links open and jaws does not read buttons. >But no gmail does NOT remember I want to keep it as basic html. I have to >change that every time I log into the system! >Ashley >-----Original Message----- >From: Ignasi Cambra >Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:41 AM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >In case it helps, the link you can use to switch to the more accessible >version of google mail is located right before the copyright notice at the >bottom of the gmail site. Log in, and look for it. It's called "classic >html" or "basic html" or something like that. You only have to do this once. >Whenever you log in after that, it will remember that you want the basic >html site and not the regular one. >On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Elizabeth wrote: >> Hello All, >> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from >> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some >> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true >> because my college uses the Google email application for its email system, >> and somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as >> such is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is >> choosing to go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have >> a choice in what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating >> electronic information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the >> college or university to ensure that the software programs they use are >> accessible to all students. >> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. >> Elizabeth >>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 >>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>>> google and offer to help with that process? >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Jorge Paez" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>>> complaint >>>> I don't know, >>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>>> this very list about >>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>>> get attention. >>>> And get attention for what exactly? >>>> Jorge >>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>>>> add events etc. >>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>>>> it...!! >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. >>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>>>>> Or Google? >>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>>>>> that problem. >>>>>> Just my thoughts. >>>>>> Jorge >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>>>>>> innovated and >>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>>>>>> works, but >>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>>>>>> doing >>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>>>>>> getting >>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>>>>>> companies are >>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>>>>>> to work on >>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>>>>>>> filed regarding >>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. >>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>>>>>>> yet), >>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>>>>>>> everything be >>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>>>>>>> are we complaining >>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>>>>>>> potentially pose >>>>>>>> problems? >>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>> Jorge >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjabe r1%40gmail.com >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>>>>>> was sent. >>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>>>>>> please notify >>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>>>>>> Action taken >>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>>>>>> recipient >>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>>>>>> files on my >>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>>>>>> responsible >>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>>>>>> instructions >>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>>>>>> to you. >>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>>>>>> with these >>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>>>>>> all copies >>>>>>> of this email from your computer. >>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>>>>>> system, >>>>>>> please click here: >>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>>>>>> windows XP >>>>>>> and above, please click here: >>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapae z%40mac.com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapae z%40mac.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebut terfly87%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/lizmohnke %40hotmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicam bra%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthlink.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sat Mar 19 13:56:13 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 08:56:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Conference call with screen reading experts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, The Writers Division is hosting a conference call with some screen-reading experts. They will discuss current screen-readers as well as operating systems like Windows. Read below for more info. Our Monthly Telephone Gathering for March is all about using the computer as a tool for writing I am reminding you all of the opportunity to join in on this call! Also that to help Our Access Technology Trainer tag-team guests to best help us, we need to give these 2 people info on what we want. Additionally, know that some of us who are just users of these products, will be able to answer some of the groups questions. What do you want to know? Things about Windows 7? About JAWS 12? About Office 2007 and 10? About Word and JAWS ability to analyze format features? Write in with your questions and be as specific as you can. Right now, any question is a fair question. Understand, that mostly this will be quick demonstrations and not step by step training. Though, there may be handouts of hot keys and the like and even offers of one-on-one assistance at a later time. Send your questions directly to me and I will combined them (might even post them to STYLIST and to the Division membership so you all can see what is being asked). Here are the numbers you need to get on the call: Time: 8:30 Eastern; 7:0 PM Central; 6:30 Mountain; 5:30 Pacific. Number to call: (218) 339-4300 Pen to use: 568839(and pound sign) Robert Leslie Newman President, Omaha Chapter NFB President, NFB Writers' Division Division Website http://www.nfb-writers-division.org Personal Website- http://www.thoughtprovoker.info From z.dreicer at emissives.com Sat Mar 19 16:00:05 2011 From: z.dreicer at emissives.com (dreicer, zachary) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 10:00:05 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Conference call with screen reading experts Message-ID: is this today Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex ----- Original Message ----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Message-ID: But does it matter if the majority is blind, or should it matter that the majority holds to Federation philosophy? Yes we are the blind speaking for the blind-- as it should be. And we should maintain that a majority of our leadership be blind, but when did we decide that membership come at a cost? Are we not trying to change what it means to be blind? Does this not include attempting to reach out to the blind and sighted alike in hopes they are willing to learn and embrace our philosophy? Why would this look bad, or change the focus of the organization? Shouldn't it be about a collective voice furthering Federation goals and causes? We walk a fine line between independence and reverse prejudice. And as Miranda described, how was it fair that her chapter take a head count of the blind and sighted just to say yes or no to a sighted member wanting to join? How does this look to someone who presumeably was ready to join the NFB and do their part? I have heard the argument that a sighted majority could vote against our current policies and change the organization, but is not this judging sighted people just because they can "see?" What is to stop a blind majority from doing the same? Not all blind Federationist are "on board" with every aspect of the organization. Isn't it making an awfully big assumption to claim a sighted majority, who chose to join a progressive group, would storm in and change our direction, even though they willingly joined a progressive organization? I am not suggesting we try to have more sighted people over blind people, though if this ever did happen, it would be a sad state of affairs that few blind people cared enough to join. For a group seeking equality, it seems odd that we would exclude people based on their eyesight. Sound familiar? Bridgit Message: 4 Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:09:06 -0400 From: Jorge Paez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind Majority Message-ID: <15D2C523-E8DC-441F-A903-279641EEA4A4 at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Miranda: I understand your points, but under the constitution, going over majority would mean the sighted have the major vote, which would defeat the NFB's purpose for existing. Jorge From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Mar 20 03:26:51 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 22:26:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Conference call with screen reading experts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The actual call will take place on the last Sunday of the month. Sunday, March 27. Message: 16 Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 10:00:05 -0600 From: "dreicer, zachary" To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Conference call with screen reading experts Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed is this today Sent from my BRAILLENOTE Apex From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 04:34:19 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 21:34:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority In-Reply-To: References: <2DB7CF7168DD4A7895AA56E3AFF25E80@SerenaPC> Message-ID: to tell you the truth, I always feel a little uncomfortable when people compare the nfb to the african -american civil rights movements. Reason being is that the tremendus harm that came to blacks, and the people that dared to ally with them over time, the racial tention, seperation from culture, seperation from their haritage, the need to reclaim those things was so huge that the need to combine efforts, work together was so important, because they had so much taken away from them and denied, as well as the lives lost by just speaking up with awisper. So, personally, while I absolutely get what you are and arn't saying (at least I think I do), I still think those are different situations in the end. but to the topic at hand, the majority issue wouldn't be an issue because of the racial tention that dominated the time. On 3/18/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > To all, > The constitution makes sense to me. Maybe chapters needing > exceptions (as in Miranda's case) could apply for a waver with the > state board, which would need to aprove with at least a two thirds > majority, or something like that. We're the National Federation of > the Blind, after all, not the National Federation for the Blind. I > wouldn't change the constitution, except to maybe ammend it for the > state board to aprove exceptions for local chapters. > Best, > Kirt > > On 3/18/11, Serena Cucco wrote: >> Well put, Darian. >> >> Serena >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Darian Smith >> Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 5:14 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind Majority >> >> Hi all, >> As you all may well know, every state affiliate, state >> chapter/division, national division and even the national board it's >> self requires that the majority of it's members and members of board >> of directors and officers be blind, except that in the case of the >> parents division, that requirement was waved. >> >> I think that that requirement should be kept in place, but that we >> should look to recruit sighted members into our organization. >> The recruitment of these members should not be utilized as nor viewed >> as a reason to back- peddle on our philossophical views on >> blindness, but to better educate and strenthin our cause and belieffs >> in our ability to collectivly act as blind people, and our ability to >> work with sighted folks who believe in what we do. >> >> my view of any movement, and of any organization that is a part of >> or fuels a movement, is that while they may have an ethnic, gender, >> or other such majority, they also have a minority of people who >> believe in the cause in just the same way the majority does. This >> is a very healthy thing, to me. >> >> just some thoughts, >> Darian >> >> On 3/18/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> Completely agree with the constitution. >>> >>> >>> On Mar 18, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Joe Orozco wrote: >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate >>>> or >>>> division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this >>>> majority >>>> rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It >> is >>>> my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be >>>> blind >>>> and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people >>>> from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made >>>> since >>>> in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but >>>> seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still >>>> on >>>> the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and >>>> coming >>>> generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly >> blind >>>> organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed >> to >>>> bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our >>>> cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your >>>> views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: >>>> >>>> "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind >>>> controlled >>>> by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of >>>> the >>>> blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting >>>> members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local >> chapters >>>> are blind." >>>> >>>> ... >>>> >>>> "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the >>>> National >>>> Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the >>>> president >>>> of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a >>>> list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under >>>> procedures >>>> to >>>> be >>>> established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the >>>> application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of >>>> the >>>> Blind shall >>>> issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the >>>> national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national >>>> president >>>> the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the >>>> constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay >>>> to >>>> the national >>>> president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no >>>> organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its >>>> voting members >>>> are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at >>>> least >>>> a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state >>>> affiliate >>>> and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not >> merely >>>> be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to >>>> promote >>>> the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their >>>> local >>>> chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the >>>> Federation." >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Joe >>>> >>>> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their >> sleeves, >>>> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.co >> m >>> >> >> >> -- >> Darian Smith >> Skype: The_Blind_Truth >> Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com >> Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace >> >> "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. >> >> - Robert Byrne >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo >> n.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dsmithnfb%40gmail.com > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 13:19:19 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 06:19:19 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Upcoming membership calls. Message-ID: Hi all, On behalf of The membership committee of the National Association of Blind Students, I would like to draw your attention to the date Sunday, March 27. On Sunday the 27th, the membership committee will hold two calls. The first call is scheduled for 6:30 p.m. eastern time, and will be a continuation of the summer program conference call. On this call, we will have reps fromLCB and BLIND inc who will talk about their summer programs, and how youth may get involved in a summer of education, fun, and maybe a little part-time employment :) The Second call, at 7p.m. will talk about the three NFB training centers. On this call, students who are currently attending a training center will be on hand to talk about their expiriences at the center, and answer any questions you may have. Call in information for these calls, to take place on sunday march 27, and 6:30, and 7p.m. eastern time, respectivly are as follows: (712) 775 - 7100. Pass code is 257963. Be on the look out for more info, but save the date! Bringing the info from across the country to your computer, landline, cell phone, victor stream or whatever new contraptions those dang students have these days, The National Association of Blind Students Membership committee. -- Darian Smith Board member /Chair: Membership committee National Association of blind Students 2nd Vice-president California Association of Blind Students Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From jorgeapaez at mac.com Sun Mar 20 14:31:18 2011 From: jorgeapaez at mac.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 10:31:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] majority In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9DB082BA-9945-4747-A4AD-4042B1B371D6@mac.com> Yet, wouldn't a sighted majority, no matter their standing, destroy what lies at the very core of our existence? Notice the key word here is "majority." Jorge On Mar 19, 2011, at 11:18 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > But does it matter if the majority is blind, or should it matter that > the majority holds to Federation philosophy? > > Yes we are the blind speaking for the blind-- as it should be. And we > should maintain that a majority of our leadership be blind, but when did > we decide that membership come at a cost? Are we not trying to change > what it means to be blind? Does this not include attempting to reach > out to the blind and sighted alike in hopes they are willing to learn > and embrace our philosophy? Why would this look bad, or change the > focus of the organization? Shouldn't it be about a collective voice > furthering Federation goals and causes? > > We walk a fine line between independence and reverse prejudice. And as > Miranda described, how was it fair that her chapter take a head count of > the blind and sighted just to say yes or no to a sighted member wanting > to join? How does this look to someone who presumeably was ready to > join the NFB and do their part? > > I have heard the argument that a sighted majority could vote against our > current policies and change the organization, but is not this judging > sighted people just because they can "see?" What is to stop a blind > majority from doing the same? Not all blind Federationist are "on > board" with every aspect of the organization. Isn't it making an > awfully big assumption to claim a sighted majority, who chose to join a > progressive group, would storm in and change our direction, even though > they willingly joined a progressive organization? > > I am not suggesting we try to have more sighted people over blind > people, though if this ever did happen, it would be a sad state of > affairs that few blind people cared enough to join. > > For a group seeking equality, it seems odd that we would exclude people > based on their eyesight. Sound familiar? > > Bridgit > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:09:06 -0400 > From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind Majority > Message-ID: <15D2C523-E8DC-441F-A903-279641EEA4A4 at mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > Miranda: > I understand your points, > but under the constitution, going over majority would mean the sighted > have the major vote, which would defeat the NFB's purpose for existing. > > > Jorge > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jorgeapaez%40mac.com From mcikeyc at aol.com Sun Mar 20 15:17:54 2011 From: mcikeyc at aol.com (Michelle Clark) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 11:17:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201103201517.p2KFHu6D015262@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com> I agree with the Constitution. Otherwise, why would we name ourselves the "National Federation of the Blind" with emphases on the word "of"? Michelle From jsorozco at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 22:00:00 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 18:00:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] majority In-Reply-To: <9DB082BA-9945-4747-A4AD-4042B1B371D6@mac.com> References: <9DB082BA-9945-4747-A4AD-4042B1B371D6@mac.com> Message-ID: Jorge, Tell me: What is it that lies at the core of our existence? I think this might take time, because what lies at the core of my existence is no doubt different from what lies at the core of your existence and the core of anyone else's existence. My point is that the NFB is an organization of people, and the spirit of the NFB, as it were, cannot be taken out of someone just because there are a few more sighted people paying dues than we anticipated. You say the keyword here is "majority," and that raises an interesting point for me. A lot of our battles are waged over things our sighted peers do not understand. So, if you follow this line of thinking, I might actually think a sighted majority would be a good thing because it would be evidence that enough sighted people believe in what we believe to make our efforts in the courts and in the legislatures and in everyday life that much more powerful. To say that a percentage of blind members needs to be stipulated still today speaks to me of fear and insecurity on one level, and on another level, it speaks to me of a kind of superiority that only the blind know what is best for the blind. Yes, you would have to be blind yourself to know what is best for you, but in the current context it is almost as though the ideas from our sighted peers are good so long as their presence is not so large as to threaten our own uniqueness. Maybe I'm looking at this the wrong way. Yet, for the moment I must confess to feeling more than a little astounded. Regards, Joe "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From dandrews at visi.com Sun Mar 20 22:21:44 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 17:21:44 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: People are doing a lot of uninformed speculation here. Freedom Scientific has no legal obligation to make inaccessible applications accessible. It may make good business sense, but the don't have to. And ... depending on the technologies used, they may not be able to make GoogleApps accessible with what is there now. And, the NFB doesn't sue Google because there are no direct grounds. Google, like FS, has no legal obligation to make its applications accessible. It might make sense, but there is no law that says they have too. On the other hand colleges and universities are obligated to provide accessible services and programs, and if they don't, they can be sued. Thus Google can be pressured to do the right thing, by its customers, universities, who can be sued. Dave At 04:13 PM 3/16/2011, you wrote: >Precisely my thoughts. > >Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > >Or Google? > >Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that problem. > >Just my thoughts. > >Jorge > > > >On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and > > are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but > > very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing > > their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting > > sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are > > falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on > > accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > > > > Thanks. > > > > On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> Hello fellow NABS members. > >> > >> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National > filed regarding > >> universities using Google Apps. > >> > >>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the > rest isn't. > >> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), > >> > >> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > >> > >> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be > >> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we > complaining > >> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose > >> problems? > >> > >> > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Jorge > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> nabs-l mailing list > >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >> nabs-l: > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > >> > > > > > > -- > > Nimer M. Jaber > > From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Mon Mar 21 02:44:48 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:44:48 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: Dave, that seems to explain things a little better. This does, in fact make sense. Just suing companies for nothing or for things that are accessible right out of the box is not good either. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: David Andrews To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 17:21:44 -0500 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >People are doing a lot of uninformed speculation here. Freedom >Scientific has no legal obligation to make inaccessible applications >accessible. It may make good business sense, but the don't have >to. And ... depending on the technologies used, they may not be >able to make GoogleApps accessible with what is there now. >And, the NFB doesn't sue Google because there are no direct >grounds. Google, like FS, has no legal obligation to make its >applications accessible. It might make sense, but there is no law >that says they have too. >On the other hand colleges and universities are obligated to provide >accessible services and programs, and if they don't, they can be >sued. Thus Google can be pressured to do the right thing, by its >customers, universities, who can be sued. >Dave >At 04:13 PM 3/16/2011, you wrote: >>Precisely my thoughts. >>Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>Or Google? >>Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that problem. >>Just my thoughts. >>Jorge >>On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>> Hello, >>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and >>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but >>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing >>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting >>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are >>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on >>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>> Thanks. >>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >> filed regarding >>>> universities using Google Apps. >>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the >> rest isn't. >>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), >>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be >>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are we >> complaining >>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose >>>> problems? >>>> Thanks, >>>> Jorge >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjabe r1%40gmail.com >>> -- >>> Nimer M. Jaber >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From trev.saunders at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 06:15:43 2011 From: trev.saunders at gmail.com (Trevor Saunders) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 02:15:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: <20110321061543.GA18687@football.tbsaunde.org> On Sun, Mar 20, 2011 at 05:21:44PM -0500, David Andrews wrote: > People are doing a lot of uninformed speculation here. Freedom > Scientific has no legal obligation to make inaccessible applications > accessible. It may make good business sense, but the don't have to. > And ... depending on the technologies used, they may not be able to > make GoogleApps accessible with what is there now. yes, however from what I've seen I'm very unconvinced its google's fault, or that some of the google apps are even unaccessible in the first place. afaict gmail chat, calendar and (docs to some degree) seem to work fine with firefox 4 on linux, there is some slowness, but that's an issue related to firefox and orca and orthagonal to this issue. Its been a while but iirc the stock gmail interface worked pretty well with nvda. However I haven't had much reason to look at any of these pages with dom inspector or a similar tool to see what the page makes available, however since my experience is that these pages work my gues would be that it isn't too unreasonable. So considering the complaints I've heard here I'm inclined to believe that the issue here is more a jaws or IE problem, but I don't have any real evidence for that its just a gues. If someone has used dom inspector or the like and says that some of the google apps should use ARIA or something in a way they don't to make things more accessible I would be willing to believe that. Trev > And, the NFB doesn't sue Google because there are no direct grounds. > Google, like FS, has no legal obligation to make its applications > accessible. It might make sense, but there is no law that says they > have too. > > On the other hand colleges and universities are obligated to provide > accessible services and programs, and if they don't, they can be > sued. Thus Google can be pressured to do the right thing, by its > customers, universities, who can be sued. > Dave > > > At 04:13 PM 3/16/2011, you wrote: > >Precisely my thoughts. > > > >Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > > > >Or Google? > > > >Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix that problem. > > > >Just my thoughts. > > > >Jorge > > > > > > > >On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > > > >> Hello, > >> > >> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have innovated and > >> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW works, but > >> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies doing > >> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB getting > >> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader companies are > >> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused to work on > >> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > >> > >> Thanks. > >> > >> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>> Hello fellow NABS members. > >>> > >>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National > >filed regarding > >>> universities using Google Apps. > >>> > >>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but the > >rest isn't. > >>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of yet), > >>> > >>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > >>> > >>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that everything be > >>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or are > >we complaining > >>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could potentially pose > >>> problems? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> > >>> Jorge > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> nabs-l mailing list > >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > >>> nabs-l: > >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Nimer M. Jaber > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trev.saunders%40gmail.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 836 bytes Desc: Digital signature URL: From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Mon Mar 21 14:04:09 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 10:04:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <20110321061543.GA18687@football.tbsaunde.org> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <20110321061543.GA18687@football.tbsaunde.org> Message-ID: <5D887E383FD94C03863A724DAAB8A4C3@OwnerPC> This message was blank, Trevor. -----Original Message----- From: Trevor Saunders Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 2:15 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From wmodnl at hotmail.com Mon Mar 21 16:12:19 2011 From: wmodnl at hotmail.com (wmodnl wmodnl) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 12:12:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] majority In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Yes, you speek my language, fully agree. > From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2011 22:18:52 -0500 > Subject: [nabs-l] majority > > But does it matter if the majority is blind, or should it matter that > the majority holds to Federation philosophy? > > Yes we are the blind speaking for the blind-- as it should be. And we > should maintain that a majority of our leadership be blind, but when did > we decide that membership come at a cost? Are we not trying to change > what it means to be blind? Does this not include attempting to reach > out to the blind and sighted alike in hopes they are willing to learn > and embrace our philosophy? Why would this look bad, or change the > focus of the organization? Shouldn't it be about a collective voice > furthering Federation goals and causes? > > We walk a fine line between independence and reverse prejudice. And as > Miranda described, how was it fair that her chapter take a head count of > the blind and sighted just to say yes or no to a sighted member wanting > to join? How does this look to someone who presumeably was ready to > join the NFB and do their part? > > I have heard the argument that a sighted majority could vote against our > current policies and change the organization, but is not this judging > sighted people just because they can "see?" What is to stop a blind > majority from doing the same? Not all blind Federationist are "on > board" with every aspect of the organization. Isn't it making an > awfully big assumption to claim a sighted majority, who chose to join a > progressive group, would storm in and change our direction, even though > they willingly joined a progressive organization? > > I am not suggesting we try to have more sighted people over blind > people, though if this ever did happen, it would be a sad state of > affairs that few blind people cared enough to join. > > For a group seeking equality, it seems odd that we would exclude people > based on their eyesight. Sound familiar? > > Bridgit > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:09:06 -0400 > From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind Majority > Message-ID: <15D2C523-E8DC-441F-A903-279641EEA4A4 at mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > > Miranda: > I understand your points, > but under the constitution, going over majority would mean the sighted > have the major vote, which would defeat the NFB's purpose for existing. > > > Jorge > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/wmodnl%40hotmail.com From freethaught at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 20:13:51 2011 From: freethaught at gmail.com (Antonio Guimaraes) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 15:13:51 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] skimming References: <20110316012514.29271.99533@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> <85A6BBC3C909434096727AA08D8BD6F5@Rufus> Message-ID: <005301cbe804$805ec9c0$0340a8c0@antonioa544aa0> Hello all, I have read most of the messages in this topic, and thank all for the input and suggestions for skimming. Let me say to the skimming skeptics among us that reading certainly takes the front seat in studying, but sellective reading is a must especially where research is concerned. I've realized that I can't possibly read every word on every chapter of my texts, and be expected to retain all of the material, even if I am to be responsible for knowing all the content from 200 pages for a 50 question exam. I don't want to go too much into reading techniques, but I read, and certainly still remember a study acronym from my intro to psychology some years ago: S, Q, 3r. Skim Question read recite review. Skimming gives you an overview of the material. A panoramic insite into what is to come. It also enables one to ask questions: Who did what and when? What is this or that consept, and how does it apply to the topic at hand? What are the inportant definitions, people, places, processes, techniques, ets. . Reading follows, and is more likely to stick since you have a focused set of learning objectives. Reciting can take the form of teaching someone, a study partner, what you're learning about. Reviewing, going over notes, ad key points helps you own the material. I stand by these principles as the technique most likely to produce results, at least for me. Now to skimming: Joe Orozco, you mentioned hih speed scaners, and I have a dream of owning or gaining access to these some day. They are the faster scans one can get. Only downside is that they reuire books to be destroyed, cut apart, and I've yet to find a library that will let this practice fly with their books. I don't mind so much to do this with my own books, but buying all the books I can scan will also break the bank, even if they serve an educational purpose. I have heard reports of the iPal working well for fast scans. I would be curious to know how often one finds a book larger than 8 and a half by 11. The iPal, or whatever the latest produc from their manufacturer only scans pages up to this size, and I wonder if this is such a great shortcoming. If I had personal acnedotal information regarding book size, I would have a better handle on whether this is a good fit. I would think seriously about buying one if I heard that users rarely encountered a book that won't fit the scanning area. And the advantage would be the preservation of books, not to mention the portability. These fit in a bak pack. Now to focus my attention on a paper that won't write itself, Antonio Guimaraes ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Orozco" To: "'National Association of Blind Students mailing list'" Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] skimming > Antonio, > > Yeah, I don't know how many people actually read the whole text in their > studies. I'm sure Hermione would approve, but in my reality, this was > never > accomplished. I don't know if it's possible, but could you get a copy of > Dragon Dictation, set it to record the RFB audio, and convert to text that > way? I mean, you'd think it would be doable. I have no idea how much the > Dragon software costs, so this may be of no use to you this time around. > If > I were in your position, I would probably speed up the audio to something > quick but legible. Also, doesn't RFB mark their audio? I don't think > it's > one continuous recording, so I would probably listen to the first few > minutes of each section and then move on. I assume you already have class > notes, which you can then turn into an outline, and you figure out how > much > to listen to based on the structure of your outline. Yes, there are > professors who will test you on things not covered in lecture, but the > main > points will have been covered in class. If you fill in the outline > through > this suggested method of audio skimming, you can later go back and listen > to > the most relevant sections more thoroughly, but perhaps the most important > advice is not to postpone your reading until the last minute! Well, the > second best advice is to buy the hard copy books and do your own scanning. > > Best, > > Joe > > "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freethaught%40gmail.com > From christopher.meyer007 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 22:32:45 2011 From: christopher.meyer007 at gmail.com (christopher meyer) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 18:32:45 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice Message-ID: Hey folks, my name's Christopher Meyer. I've been following the message threads on the NABS list for, what, five or six months? This is my first time getting my name out to you all. I would rather have done so with just a "nice to meet you" post about myself, but a pressing matter takes priority for me. I'm eighteen, blind, learning self-confidence, embracing the use of my cane, getting ready for college in the fall, and the prep program at Blind, Inc. in Miniapolis over the summer. That's all background information to explain that I'm becoming more acceptant of what I can see--or really what I can't see. In two weeks, I'll be facing a good test of this "new-found confidence" as I've seen some of the NFB centers say they provide. I'm going to be flying by myself for the first time through Indianapolis International, Chicago Midway, and Newark Airport. I found the TSA's travel information and tips for "persons with disabilities and medical issues," which were helpful and reassuring for the security checkpoint process. I've contacted my airline support, told them I'll be flying in two weeks and will need an assistant. And I know that I can take my cane along without it counting as a cary-on piece or personal item. Other than that, what do I need to know and prepare for? I've flown before a few years back and just vaguely remember the general airport layout. I do mean vaguely, so I'm anxious not knowing what to expect on that front. Any tips or information worth sharing? I'll be clear: I'm naturally pretty good at improvising. What I don't know right now I'll figure out soon enough--maybe while I'm en route to my first gate, maybe in Midway for my transfer and layover, maybe in Newark at baggage pickup. Who knows. But I'm also the kind of person who wants to be prepared for a challenge and hit it head-on, but prepared nonetheless. Eager to hear back all the same. Christopher From kobycox at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 00:43:58 2011 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:43:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Rooms for the NFB national convention Message-ID: <03C16620-7BFA-49B0-A67D-F5F3984EF7D8@gmail.com> All, I've got my hotel room booked for the NFB national convention. I've got the hotel room booked from July 3rd to July 9th. I have booked a room with 2 beds in it. Is there anyone who would like to share a room with me? I'm totally blind and I'm also 18 years old. Right back soon, Koby. Sent from my iPhone From nimerjaber1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 00:47:27 2011 From: nimerjaber1 at gmail.com (Nimer Jaber) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:47:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey man, Don't worry about it too much. I would carry on as much as possible just because I have no patience for baggage claim. I would also make use of an assistant. I would raise hell till they bring you one because they're slow. I never call ahead because when I do they still have to call one when I get there anyway, so I end up spending the same amount of time waiting. And I don't allow them to force me into a wheelchair. Make sure that you advocate for yourself, and you'll be fine. Oh, and don't allow them to force you to sit in a particular seat just because you're blind. Let them seat you in the seat that is on your ticket unless it's an emergency exit. Other than that, you'll be good. If you have any more questions, feel free to contact me on facebook or through email, or eel free to call me as well. Thanks Nimer J On 21/03/2011, christopher meyer wrote: > Hey folks, my name's Christopher Meyer. I've been following the > message threads on the NABS list for, what, five or six months? This > is my first time getting my name out to you all. I would rather have > done so with just a "nice to meet you" post about myself, but a > pressing matter takes priority for me. > > I'm eighteen, blind, learning self-confidence, embracing the use of my > cane, getting ready for college in the fall, and the prep program at > Blind, Inc. in Miniapolis over the summer. > > That's all background information to explain that I'm becoming more > acceptant of what I can see--or really what I can't see. > > In two weeks, I'll be facing a good test of this "new-found > confidence" as I've seen some of the NFB centers say they provide. I'm > going to be flying by myself for the first time through Indianapolis > International, Chicago Midway, and Newark Airport. I found the TSA's > travel information and tips for "persons with disabilities and medical > issues," which were helpful and reassuring for the security checkpoint > process. I've contacted my airline support, told them I'll be flying > in two weeks and will need an assistant. And I know that I can take my > cane along without it counting as a cary-on piece or personal item. > > Other than that, what do I need to know and prepare for? I've flown > before a few years back and just vaguely remember the general airport > layout. I do mean vaguely, so I'm anxious not knowing what to expect > on that front. Any tips or information worth sharing? > > I'll be clear: I'm naturally pretty good at improvising. What I don't > know right now I'll figure out soon enough--maybe while I'm en route > to my first gate, maybe in Midway for my transfer and layover, maybe > in Newark at baggage pickup. Who knows. But I'm also the kind of > person who wants to be prepared for a challenge and hit it head-on, > but prepared nonetheless. > Eager to hear back all the same. > > > Christopher > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > -- Nimer M. Jaber The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it was sent. If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. Action taken as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all files on my machine for security threats. However, I will not be held responsible for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any instructions or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up to you. Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply with these instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email from your computer. Registered Linux User 529141. http://counter.li.org/ Vinux testing and documentation coordinator To get more information about a free and accessible operating system, please click here: http://www.vinuxproject.org To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for windows XP and above, please click here: http://www.nvda-project.org Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: http://nimertech.blogspot.com Phone: (720) (251-4530) Please reply to this email to contact me. From aaatlantic at aol.com Tue Mar 22 00:52:00 2011 From: aaatlantic at aol.com (alex Atlantic) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:52:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Rooms for the NFB national convention In-Reply-To: <03C16620-7BFA-49B0-A67D-F5F3984EF7D8@gmail.com> References: <03C16620-7BFA-49B0-A67D-F5F3984EF7D8@gmail.com> Message-ID: hey alex Atlantic here where are you from? On Mar 21, 2011, at 8:43 PM, Koby Cox wrote: > All, I've got my hotel room booked for the NFB national convention. I've got the hotel room booked from July 3rd to July 9th. I have booked a room with 2 beds in it. Is there anyone who would like to share a room with me? I'm totally blind and I'm also 18 years old. Right back soon, Koby. > > Sent from my iPhone > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aaatlantic%40aol.com From kobycox at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 00:56:00 2011 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 19:56:00 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Rooms for the NFB national convention In-Reply-To: References: <03C16620-7BFA-49B0-A67D-F5F3984EF7D8@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm from Tulsa Oklahoma. Right back soon, Koby. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 21, 2011, at 7:52 PM, alex Atlantic wrote: > hey alex Atlantic here where are you from? > On Mar 21, 2011, at 8:43 PM, Koby Cox wrote: > >> All, I've got my hotel room booked for the NFB national convention. I've got the hotel room booked from July 3rd to July 9th. I have booked a room with 2 beds in it. Is there anyone who would like to share a room with me? I'm totally blind and I'm also 18 years old. Right back soon, Koby. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aaatlantic%40aol.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From aaatlantic at aol.com Tue Mar 22 00:59:10 2011 From: aaatlantic at aol.com (alex Atlantic) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:59:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Rooms for the NFB national convention In-Reply-To: References: <03C16620-7BFA-49B0-A67D-F5F3984EF7D8@gmail.com> Message-ID: send your personal info to me via email my email address is aaatlantic at aol.com On Mar 21, 2011, at 8:56 PM, Koby Cox wrote: > I'm from Tulsa Oklahoma. Right back soon, Koby. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 21, 2011, at 7:52 PM, alex Atlantic wrote: > >> hey alex Atlantic here where are you from? >> On Mar 21, 2011, at 8:43 PM, Koby Cox wrote: >> >>> All, I've got my hotel room booked for the NFB national convention. I've got the hotel room booked from July 3rd to July 9th. I have booked a room with 2 beds in it. Is there anyone who would like to share a room with me? I'm totally blind and I'm also 18 years old. Right back soon, Koby. >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aaatlantic%40aol.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aaatlantic%40aol.com From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Tue Mar 22 02:04:47 2011 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (Hannah) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 18:04:47 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice Message-ID: <20110322010407.ZPCY6996.omta02.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> Hey Christopher, Welcome to the list! I don't post much, but I've also been following along on the topics being discussed. I've been flying on my own since I was in middle school and I've found that people are super helpful. You just have to be clear on how you want them to assist you otherwise you might face some awkward moments. I let them know that I will need assistance when I check in instead of calling in advance to give them a heads-up because tons of people fly everyday and I'm not sure if they'll actually remember, lol. Hope this helps although it's not much. Cheers, Hannah > ----- Original Message ----- >From: christopher meyer To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 18:32:45 -0400 >Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice >Hey folks, my name's Christopher Meyer. I've been following the >message threads on the NABS list for, what, five or six months? This >is my first time getting my name out to you all. I would rather have >done so with just a "nice to meet you" post about myself, but a >pressing matter takes priority for me. >I'm eighteen, blind, learning self-confidence, embracing the use of my >cane, getting ready for college in the fall, and the prep program at >Blind, Inc. in Miniapolis over the summer. >That's all background information to explain that I'm becoming more >acceptant of what I can see--or really what I can't see. >In two weeks, I'll be facing a good test of this "new-found >confidence" as I've seen some of the NFB centers say they provide. I'm >going to be flying by myself for the first time through Indianapolis >International, Chicago Midway, and Newark Airport. I found the TSA's >travel information and tips for "persons with disabilities and medical >issues," which were helpful and reassuring for the security checkpoint >process. I've contacted my airline support, told them I'll be flying >in two weeks and will need an assistant. And I know that I can take my >cane along without it counting as a cary-on piece or personal item. >Other than that, what do I need to know and prepare for? I've flown >before a few years back and just vaguely remember the general airport >layout. I do mean vaguely, so I'm anxious not knowing what to expect >on that front. Any tips or information worth sharing? >I'll be clear: I'm naturally pretty good at improvising. What I don't >know right now I'll figure out soon enough--maybe while I'm en route >to my first gate, maybe in Midway for my transfer and layover, maybe >in Newark at baggage pickup. Who knows. But I'm also the kind of >person who wants to be prepared for a challenge and hit it head-on, >but prepared nonetheless. >Eager to hear back all the same. >Christopher >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From kobycox at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 01:08:22 2011 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:08:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Rooms for the NFB national convention In-Reply-To: References: <03C16620-7BFA-49B0-A67D-F5F3984EF7D8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <145DEB6E-907D-49EC-AF6B-F81CA81A2F43@gmail.com> I just sent it to you. I titled the subject personal information. I just ient it. Koby. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 21, 2011, at 7:59 PM, alex Atlantic wrote: > send your personal info to me via email my email address is > aaatlantic at aol.com > On Mar 21, 2011, at 8:56 PM, Koby Cox wrote: > >> I'm from Tulsa Oklahoma. Right back soon, Koby. >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 21, 2011, at 7:52 PM, alex Atlantic wrote: >> >>> hey alex Atlantic here where are you from? >>> On Mar 21, 2011, at 8:43 PM, Koby Cox wrote: >>> >>>> All, I've got my hotel room booked for the NFB national convention. I've got the hotel room booked from July 3rd to July 9th. I have booked a room with 2 beds in it. Is there anyone who would like to share a room with me? I'm totally blind and I'm also 18 years old. Right back soon, Koby. >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aaatlantic%40aol.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/aaatlantic%40aol.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From sparklylicious at suddenlink.net Tue Mar 22 02:14:44 2011 From: sparklylicious at suddenlink.net (Hannah) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 18:14:44 -0800 Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice Message-ID: <20110322011404.XLSS25469.omta01.suddenlink.net@BrailleNote> I forgot to add that they will probably bring a wheelchair for you. They might even try to get you to sit in it. I've never sat in one because I don't want to give them the impression that visually impaired people can't walk. Sometimes requesting for assistance might take a while, but there's not much we can do about that; we just have to be patient. Cheers, HANNAH > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Hannah To: National Association of Blind Students mailing listDate sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 18:04:47 -0800 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice >Hey Christopher, >Welcome to the list! I don't post much, but I've also been >following along on the topics being discussed. >I've been flying on my own since I was in middle school and I've >found that people are super helpful. You just have to be clear >on how you want them to assist you otherwise you might face some >awkward moments. I let them know that I will need assistance >when I check in instead of calling in advance to give them a >heads-up because tons of people fly everyday and I'm not sure if >they'll actually remember, lol. Hope this helps although it's >not much. >Cheers, Hannah >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: christopher meyer >To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 18:32:45 -0400 >>Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice >>Hey folks, my name's Christopher Meyer. I've been following the >>message threads on the NABS list for, what, five or six months? >This >>is my first time getting my name out to you all. I would rather >have >>done so with just a "nice to meet you" post about myself, but a >>pressing matter takes priority for me. >>I'm eighteen, blind, learning self-confidence, embracing the use >of my >>cane, getting ready for college in the fall, and the prep program >at >>Blind, Inc. in Miniapolis over the summer. >>That's all background information to explain that I'm becoming >more >>acceptant of what I can see--or really what I can't see. >>In two weeks, I'll be facing a good test of this "new-found >>confidence" as I've seen some of the NFB centers say they >provide. I'm >>going to be flying by myself for the first time through >Indianapolis >>International, Chicago Midway, and Newark Airport. I found the >TSA's >>travel information and tips for "persons with disabilities and >medical >>issues," which were helpful and reassuring for the security >checkpoint >>process. I've contacted my airline support, told them I'll be >flying >>in two weeks and will need an assistant. And I know that I can >take my >>cane along without it counting as a cary-on piece or personal >item. >>Other than that, what do I need to know and prepare for? I've >flown >>before a few years back and just vaguely remember the general >airport >>layout. I do mean vaguely, so I'm anxious not knowing what to >expect >>on that front. Any tips or information worth sharing? >>I'll be clear: I'm naturally pretty good at improvising. What I >don't >>know right now I'll figure out soon enough--maybe while I'm en >route >>to my first gate, maybe in Midway for my transfer and layover, >maybe >>in Newark at baggage pickup. Who knows. But I'm also the kind >of >>person who wants to be prepared for a challenge and hit it >head-on, >>but prepared nonetheless. >>Eager to hear back all the same. >>Christopher >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli >cious%40suddenlink.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/sparklyli cious%40suddenlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 02:05:25 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:05:25 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT small group communication Message-ID: Hi all, I could use some help and brainstorming ideas. This is for an interpersonal communication project. A couple questions/concerns here. I’m doing a group presentation on small group roles; its very broad but we’re focussing on the different power people have and how the environment affects the roles we play. One member is presenting the Stanford prison experiment with a video clip. Its on youtube I think. Its about a psychological experiment where healthy college students were assigned to be guards or inmates and what happens in an institution like that Some of my questions. 1. Everyone has access to the handouts via hard copy; one member will prepare a 1-2 page handout How do you access things like this including powerpoint? Do you just insist on having them ahead of time? What about other presenters in your class? They will hand out stuff too. What do you do? Just take it home and scan? What I will do is politely remind them that I cannot see the paper and to please read/paraphrase things on the handout. 2. How do you track time in a group presentation or public speaking? I have a watch I can see but I have to turn toward it with tunnel vision and even with a talking watch, I cannot exactly press it during a presentation. I want to track time so in the last minute I can wrap things up and “transition” to the next speaker in this case. 3. I can read braille so plan to write out some notes. But where do you put these? Others will have notes in their hands or on screen. Obviously I need to lay them down. Perhaps the podium? 4. If you have equipment, who operates that? The professor, another classmate? In the past I used the professor to change screens for me or click on videos. Now for my other needs. Can you suggest some people/experiments or sources in the area of small group communication I can look up? Often having a person’s name helps to start it. We do not need scholarly sources, but they do need to be reputable; so quoting experts is a good idea. Articles or magazines sound good. I will try the database tomorrow. I wish I had my social psychology book; that is what I really need! But I sold it away! The only experiments that come to mind about roles are Milgrims experiment and the Zimbardo prison experiment. So psychology and sociology majors, please suggest ideas! Thanks. Ashley From jordyn2493 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 02:08:03 2011 From: jordyn2493 at gmail.com (Jordyn Castor) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:08:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Inc. Message-ID: <4D880483.7010108@gmail.com> Hey NABS, I'm looking for people who have attended the summer program for blind students in Minnesota. What did you like about the program, and what didn't you like? I just need opinions because I'm looking into going there this summer. Thanks, and feel free to email me off list if you want because I know we've already talked about this sort of thing! Jordyn From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 02:47:00 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Message-ID: <42EE527FDBAD4B7DB5F1FB5390BC9E79@OwnerPC> Hi all, I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained weight upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. The freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain some weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it until I put on different clothes. BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my mom isn’t satisfied. I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue is in my middle, the abdominal area. I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is a person’s weight over height squared. But its not far off. I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it does affect your image and health. Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with more health risks. I took a health class in college. I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early May and to have a better weight overall. Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some complex carbs. For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat milk. I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do not eat fried food or drink sodas. I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for several years and do not see many results. I live with parents and my mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not the refined kind! I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot fit in a size 14 dress! What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on less calories? I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead classes. I have not found them too accomodating. I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I could not follow the fast pace! I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most accessible. I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the back basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is too stagnant or something being in the basement! I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what worked for you. My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t admit weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the mid section is the hardest to lose. Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose it. I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when I’m out at a restaurant. As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain tap water. I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at night. I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. But fruit never fills me up. Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I am. Let me know your ideas. Ashley From gpaikens at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 03:12:26 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:12:26 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] OT small group communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Ashley, I'm not sure why you posted this as OT since it very much deals with academic life. Here are some suggestions. Hopefully something is useful. As far as the handouts and ppt go, if it is from your group it shouldn't be a problem to ask for it ahead of time. If it is from other groups, you could send an email asking people to send you their handouts before class if possible so you can have them at the same time. Unfortunately, many students don't finish that kind of thing with a lot of lead time so you may not get them in advance. You could bring a flash drive with you for them to copy their materials on to if they are willing. I use all of these methods. last of all, you could scan them if you have to. As far as telling time during your presentation, get a braille watch. You can be far more discrete in watching your time. Another option is to set an alarm on your phone to give you a two minute warning. I have professors who do this. A silent alarm would be best. To keep track of your notes, you could use big sheets of braille paper and place them on the podium as you suggested, but I find reaching up to a podium and using two-handed braille reading to be awkward while speaking. You could braille your notes on note cards and then have your hands relatively free when not reading. I honestly haven't tried this one yet but plan to for my next presentation. Anyway, just some brainstorming. Maybe something in there helped. -Greg On Mar 21, 2011, at 9:05 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > > I could use some help and brainstorming ideas. > This is for an interpersonal communication project. > > A couple questions/concerns here. I’m doing a group presentation on small group roles; its very broad but we’re focussing on the different power people have and how the environment affects the roles we play. > One member is presenting the Stanford prison experiment with a video clip. Its on youtube I think. Its about a psychological experiment where healthy college students were assigned to be guards or inmates and what happens in an institution like that > > Some of my questions. > > 1. Everyone has access to the handouts via hard copy; one member will prepare a 1-2 page handout > How do you access things like this including powerpoint? Do you just insist on having them ahead of time? What about other presenters in your class? They will hand out stuff too. What do you do? Just take it home and scan? > What I will do is politely remind them that I cannot see the paper and to please read/paraphrase things on the handout. > > 2. How do you track time in a group presentation or public speaking? > I have a watch I can see but I have to turn toward it with tunnel vision and even with a talking watch, I cannot exactly press it during a presentation. > I want to track time so in the last minute I can wrap things up and “transition” to the next speaker in this case. > > 3. I can read braille so plan to write out some notes. But where do you put these? Others will have notes in their hands or on screen. > Obviously I need to lay them down. Perhaps the podium? > > 4. If you have equipment, who operates that? The professor, another classmate? In the past I used the professor to change screens for me or click on videos. > > > Now for my other needs. Can you suggest some people/experiments or sources in the area of small group communication I can look up? Often having a person’s name helps to start it. > We do not need scholarly sources, but they do need to be reputable; so quoting experts is a good idea. > Articles or magazines sound good. > I will try the database tomorrow. I wish I had my social psychology book; that is what I really need! But I sold it away! > The only experiments that come to mind about roles are Milgrims experiment and the Zimbardo prison experiment. > So psychology and sociology majors, please suggest ideas! > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 03:19:24 2011 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:19:24 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice References: Message-ID: Hello Christopher I myself have only flown once and was treated with dignity by the airport attendants. You do need to be specific, as in other impairment you may or may not have. Personally I was never asked if I wanted to sit in a wheel chair but I also arrived at the airport departure gate with sighted guide and my foldable white cane erect. I was checked like any other passenger (cell phones, keys, etc need to be removed from your pockets). I myself was allowed to board the plane first but I was flying on a smaller plane that wasn't very crowded, I believe you are allowed 2 carry on baggage . This is where I put my electronic devices (labtop, stream, etc) and perscription medication and such. I don't remember the weight for these but think duffle bag/labtop bag or for a woman a purse. in your check in luggage you need to put any shampoos, soaps, shaving utensils, colognes, etc. I don't know how long ago it was that you last flew but security is alittle ridiculous. Even if you come to the airport with food or drink you are not allowed on the plane with it. hope i helped in some way. larger, busier airports are going to be slower in finding a flight attendant to assist you and you really have to be patient. I know in detroit from my arrival point to my departure point I had to go through 4 elevators and a moving sidewalk. You also may wanna keep your ittenary handy since your attendants may need the gate information. Good Luck -Teal ----- From: "christopher meyer" To: Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 5:32 PM Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice > Hey folks, my name's Christopher Meyer. I've been following the > message threads on the NABS list for, what, five or six months? This > is my first time getting my name out to you all. I would rather have > done so with just a "nice to meet you" post about myself, but a > pressing matter takes priority for me. > > I'm eighteen, blind, learning self-confidence, embracing the use of my > cane, getting ready for college in the fall, and the prep program at > Blind, Inc. in Miniapolis over the summer. > > That's all background information to explain that I'm becoming more > acceptant of what I can see--or really what I can't see. > > In two weeks, I'll be facing a good test of this "new-found > confidence" as I've seen some of the NFB centers say they provide. I'm > going to be flying by myself for the first time through Indianapolis > International, Chicago Midway, and Newark Airport. I found the TSA's > travel information and tips for "persons with disabilities and medical > issues," which were helpful and reassuring for the security checkpoint > process. I've contacted my airline support, told them I'll be flying > in two weeks and will need an assistant. And I know that I can take my > cane along without it counting as a cary-on piece or personal item. > > Other than that, what do I need to know and prepare for? I've flown > before a few years back and just vaguely remember the general airport > layout. I do mean vaguely, so I'm anxious not knowing what to expect > on that front. Any tips or information worth sharing? > > I'll be clear: I'm naturally pretty good at improvising. What I don't > know right now I'll figure out soon enough--maybe while I'm en route > to my first gate, maybe in Midway for my transfer and layover, maybe > in Newark at baggage pickup. Who knows. But I'm also the kind of > person who wants to be prepared for a challenge and hit it head-on, > but prepared nonetheless. > Eager to hear back all the same. > > > Christopher > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 03:29:56 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 23:29:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You mentioned medicine in carry on bags. You might want to check TSA policy. I think medicine has to be stored in a clear bag, like a ziplock bag, with labels. That is a pain because you cannot carry it in a daily medicine container then. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: autTeal Bloodwortho Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice Hello Christopher I myself have only flown once and was treated with dignity by the airport attendants. You do need to be specific, as in other impairment you may or may not have. Personally I was never asked if I wanted to sit in a wheel chair but I also arrived at the airport departure gate with sighted guide and my foldable white cane erect. I was checked like any other passenger (cell phones, keys, etc need to be removed from your pockets). I myself was allowed to board the plane first but I was flying on a smaller plane that wasn't very crowded, I believe you are allowed 2 carry on baggage . This is where I put my electronic devices (labtop, stream, etc) and perscription medication and such. I don't remember the weight for these but think duffle bag/labtop bag or for a woman a purse. in your check in luggage you need to put any shampoos, soaps, shaving utensils, colognes, etc. I don't know how long ago it was that you last flew but security is alittle ridiculous. Even if you come to the airport with food or drink you are not allowed on the plane with it. hope i helped in some way. larger, busier airports are going to be slower in finding a flight attendant to assist you and you really have to be patient. I know in detroit from my arrival point to my departure point I had to go through 4 elevators and a moving sidewalk. You also may wanna keep your ittenary handy since your attendants may need the gate information. Good Luck -Teal ----- From: "christopher meyer" To: Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 5:32 PM Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice > Hey folks, my name's Christopher Meyer. I've been following the > message threads on the NABS list for, what, five or six months? This > is my first time getting my name out to you all. I would rather have > done so with just a "nice to meet you" post about myself, but a > pressing matter takes priority for me. > > I'm eighteen, blind, learning self-confidence, embracing the use of my > cane, getting ready for college in the fall, and the prep program at > Blind, Inc. in Miniapolis over the summer. > > That's all background information to explain that I'm becoming more > acceptant of what I can see--or really what I can't see. > > In two weeks, I'll be facing a good test of this "new-found > confidence" as I've seen some of the NFB centers say they provide. I'm > going to be flying by myself for the first time through Indianapolis > International, Chicago Midway, and Newark Airport. I found the TSA's > travel information and tips for "persons with disabilities and medical > issues," which were helpful and reassuring for the security checkpoint > process. I've contacted my airline support, told them I'll be flying > in two weeks and will need an assistant. And I know that I can take my > cane along without it counting as a cary-on piece or personal item. > > Other than that, what do I need to know and prepare for? I've flown > before a few years back and just vaguely remember the general airport > layout. I do mean vaguely, so I'm anxious not knowing what to expect > on that front. Any tips or information worth sharing? > > I'll be clear: I'm naturally pretty good at improvising. What I don't > know right now I'll figure out soon enough--maybe while I'm en route > to my first gate, maybe in Midway for my transfer and layover, maybe > in Newark at baggage pickup. Who knows. But I'm also the kind of > person who wants to be prepared for a challenge and hit it head-on, > but prepared nonetheless. > Eager to hear back all the same. > > > Christopher > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Tue Mar 22 03:34:37 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:34:37 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Message-ID: Hi, This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I am getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what are the most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it normal for a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me it works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. She tells me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do those exercises in PE anyways. any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, this can result in a discussion that can lead to great other discussions about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >----- Original Message ----- >From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >Hi all, >I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained weight upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. The freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain some weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it until I put on different clothes. >BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my mom isn’t satisfied. >I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue is in my middle, the abdominal area. >I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is >a person’s weight over height squared. >But its not far off. >I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it does affect your image and health. >Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with more health risks. I took a health class in college. >I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early May and to have a better weight overall. >Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some complex carbs. >For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat milk. >I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do not eat fried food or drink sodas. >I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for several years and do not see many results. I live with parents and my mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not the refined kind! >I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot fit in a size 14 dress! >What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on less calories? >I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. >I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I could not follow the fast pace! >I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most accessible. >I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the back basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is too stagnant or something being in the basement! >I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. >I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! >Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what worked for you. >My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t admit weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the mid section is the hardest to lose. >Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose it. >I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when I’m out at a restaurant. >As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain tap water. >I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at night. >I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. But fruit never fills me up. >Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I am. >Let me know your ideas. >Ashley >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From trillian551 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 03:43:31 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 23:43:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Ashley, Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, but for all of America. I think that you have done some good things already by modifying your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just wanted to look and feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a wonderfu program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really really simple, and you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the stuff she does is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, and it is definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole hting with a sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you get a good idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I promise it works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have specific quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than happy to help. I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So many of us are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle with looking gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: > Hi, > > This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I > am getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what > are the most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is > it normal for a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing > where your abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, > and to me it works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not > working. She tells me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do > it because I do those exercises in PE anyways. > any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, > this can result in a discussion that can lead to great other > discussions about blindness and appearance among sighted public. > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > >>Hi all, > >>I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in > the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained > weight upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food > there. The freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but > did gain some weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly > noticed it until I put on different clothes. >>BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount > university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my mom > isn’t satisfied. > >>I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue > is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is >>a person’s weight over height squared. >>But its not far off. >>I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it > does affect your image and health. >>Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with > more health risks. I took a health class in college. > >>I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early > May and to have a better weight overall. > >>Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some > complex carbs. >>For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat > milk. >>I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do > not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse > food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for > several years and do not see many results. I live with parents > and my mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. > If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not > the refined kind! > > >>I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot > fit in a size 14 dress! > >>What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on > less calories? >>I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and > crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! > > >>Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in > as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. >>I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead > classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I > could not follow the fast pace! >>I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most > accessible. > >>I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to > workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the > back basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is > too stagnant or something being in the basement! >>I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. > > >>I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! > >>Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what > worked for you. >>My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t admit > weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the > mid section is the hardest to lose. >>Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place > you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose > it. >>I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too > many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when I’m > out at a restaurant. >>As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. > Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain > tap water. >>I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I > have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at > night. >>I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. > But fruit never fills me up. >>Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat > peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I > am. > > >>Let me know your ideas. >>Ashley >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 03:51:56 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 23:51:56 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Humberto, Yes, for males its normal to be apple shaped. Women are typically pear shaped. But I am apple. Appearance wise this looks bad and its more a health risk. But whether male or female cardio exercise is important and I wish it were more accessible. You have flat screens on cardio equipment; I can read them usually but a totally blind person would have less access. You have visual based classes and sports unless adapted are visual and rely on hand-eye coordination. Humberto, doing push ups and sit-ups helps with endurance and building tone/muscle. But aerobic exercise burns fat or supposedly does. Push up are more of a strength exercise for the arms and chest. As I said I do fast walking for my primary aerobic exercise plus jumping and jumping jacks. I cannot see how to do actual aerobs like in the workout videos, so I made up some of my own silly moves like moving to the side and lifting my legs. But I'm not doing enough diet or exercise or something. How can you feel full on less calories? I often get night cravings and admit sometimes give into drinking sweet juice or some sweets. Its quite hard to lose weight; I lost a few pounds this year. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: humberto Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:34 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Hi, This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I am getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what are the most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it normal for a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me it works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. She tells me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do those exercises in PE anyways. any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, this can result in a discussion that can lead to great other discussions about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >----- Original Message ----- >From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >Hi all, >I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained weight upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. The freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain some weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it until I put on different clothes. >BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my mom isn’t satisfied. >I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue is in my middle, the abdominal area. >I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is >a person’s weight over height squared. >But its not far off. >I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it does affect your image and health. >Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with more health risks. I took a health class in college. >I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early May and to have a better weight overall. >Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some complex carbs. >For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat milk. >I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do not eat fried food or drink sodas. >I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for several years and do not see many results. I live with parents and my mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not the refined kind! >I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot fit in a size 14 dress! >What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on less calories? >I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. >I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I could not follow the fast pace! >I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most accessible. >I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the back basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is too stagnant or something being in the basement! >I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. >I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! >Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what worked for you. >My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t admit weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the mid section is the hardest to lose. >Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose it. >I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when I’m out at a restaurant. >As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain tap water. >I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at night. >I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. But fruit never fills me up. >Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I am. >Let me know your ideas. >Ashley >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 03:59:29 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 23:59:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <706419D0D10A4B3FAD995408AA428059@OwnerPC> Mary, Yes I do have a slow metabolism I feel. I do get the minum amount of physical activity; but I need more. BTW, I was a brides maid for my brother's wedding and I had a size 16 dress! IT was the largest we could order. Now I need to be in my other brother's wedding and do a reading. How is this DVD? Is it pretty verbal? Does she count out exercises and names? Like saying "we will do ten squats" now. How long did you do the workout and how many times a week? Does it have common exercises too such as jumping jacks? I like the idea of a DVD workout because its structured and motivating like having a trainer with you; but most I've heard of are too visual. Glad this one worked. That's wonderful you dropped sizes. My mother is groaning that a size 14 dress may look too tight and yep it feels tight somewhat. But she seems to forget last wedding in 2008 I wore a 16 so she should be happy that a size 14 even sort of fits. I'm impressed there's an accessible DVD out there. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mary Fernandez Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Dear Ashley, Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, but for all of America. I think that you have done some good things already by modifying your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just wanted to look and feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a wonderfu program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really really simple, and you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the stuff she does is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, and it is definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole hting with a sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you get a good idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I promise it works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have specific quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than happy to help. I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So many of us are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle with looking gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: > Hi, > > This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I > am getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what > are the most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is > it normal for a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing > where your abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, > and to me it works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not > working. She tells me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do > it because I do those exercises in PE anyways. > any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, > this can result in a discussion that can lead to great other > discussions about blindness and appearance among sighted public. > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > >>Hi all, > >>I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in > the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained > weight upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food > there. The freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but > did gain some weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly > noticed it until I put on different clothes. >>BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount > university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my mom > isn’t satisfied. > >>I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue > is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is >>a person’s weight over height squared. >>But its not far off. >>I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it > does affect your image and health. >>Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with > more health risks. I took a health class in college. > >>I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early > May and to have a better weight overall. > >>Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some > complex carbs. >>For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat > milk. >>I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do > not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse > food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for > several years and do not see many results. I live with parents > and my mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. > If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not > the refined kind! > > >>I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot > fit in a size 14 dress! > >>What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on > less calories? >>I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and > crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! > > >>Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in > as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. >>I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead > classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I > could not follow the fast pace! >>I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most > accessible. > >>I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to > workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the > back basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is > too stagnant or something being in the basement! >>I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. > > >>I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! > >>Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what > worked for you. >>My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t admit > weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the > mid section is the hardest to lose. >>Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place > you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose > it. >>I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too > many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when I’m > out at a restaurant. >>As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. > Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain > tap water. >>I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I > have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at > night. >>I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. > But fruit never fills me up. >>Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat > peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I > am. > > >>Let me know your ideas. >>Ashley >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 04:10:04 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 00:10:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT small group communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greg, I usually have brailled on standard sheets and number them in case they get out of order; the typical 8 1/2 x 11 paper. Yep I agree its awkward though. Maybe I should try notecards. Although for this very short presentation it may make more sense just to have a sheet of notes. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Greg Aikens Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication Hey Ashley, I'm not sure why you posted this as OT since it very much deals with academic life. Here are some suggestions. Hopefully something is useful. As far as the handouts and ppt go, if it is from your group it shouldn't be a problem to ask for it ahead of time. If it is from other groups, you could send an email asking people to send you their handouts before class if possible so you can have them at the same time. Unfortunately, many students don't finish that kind of thing with a lot of lead time so you may not get them in advance. You could bring a flash drive with you for them to copy their materials on to if they are willing. I use all of these methods. last of all, you could scan them if you have to. As far as telling time during your presentation, get a braille watch. You can be far more discrete in watching your time. Another option is to set an alarm on your phone to give you a two minute warning. I have professors who do this. A silent alarm would be best. To keep track of your notes, you could use big sheets of braille paper and place them on the podium as you suggested, but I find reaching up to a podium and using two-handed braille reading to be awkward while speaking. You could braille your notes on note cards and then have your hands relatively free when not reading. I honestly haven't tried this one yet but plan to for my next presentation. Anyway, just some brainstorming. Maybe something in there helped. -Greg On Mar 21, 2011, at 9:05 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > > I could use some help and brainstorming ideas. > This is for an interpersonal communication project. > > A couple questions/concerns here. I’m doing a group presentation on small > group roles; its very broad but we’re focussing on the different power > people have and how the environment affects the roles we play. > One member is presenting the Stanford prison experiment with a video clip. > Its on youtube I think. Its about a psychological experiment where healthy > college students were assigned to be guards or inmates and what happens in > an institution like that > > Some of my questions. > > 1. Everyone has access to the handouts via hard copy; one member will > prepare a 1-2 page handout > How do you access things like this including powerpoint? Do you just > insist on having them ahead of time? What about other presenters in your > class? They will hand out stuff too. What do you do? Just take it home and > scan? > What I will do is politely remind them that I cannot see the paper and to > please read/paraphrase things on the handout. > > 2. How do you track time in a group presentation or public speaking? > I have a watch I can see but I have to turn toward it with tunnel vision > and even with a talking watch, I cannot exactly press it during a > presentation. > I want to track time so in the last minute I can wrap things up and > “transition” to the next speaker in this case. > > 3. I can read braille so plan to write out some notes. But where do you > put these? Others will have notes in their hands or on screen. > Obviously I need to lay them down. Perhaps the podium? > > 4. If you have equipment, who operates that? The professor, another > classmate? In the past I used the professor to change screens for me or > click on videos. > > > Now for my other needs. Can you suggest some people/experiments or > sources in the area of small group communication I can look up? Often > having a person’s name helps to start it. > We do not need scholarly sources, but they do need to be reputable; so > quoting experts is a good idea. > Articles or magazines sound good. > I will try the database tomorrow. I wish I had my social psychology book; > that is what I really need! But I sold it away! > The only experiments that come to mind about roles are Milgrims experiment > and the Zimbardo prison experiment. > So psychology and sociology majors, please suggest ideas! > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From dandrews at visi.com Tue Mar 22 10:02:41 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 05:02:41 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: Frankly, you and others are getting ridiculous in your speculation, attribution of motives etc. We don't sue Google directly, because there are no grounds. There is no law that says they have to develop accessible applications. There are laws that govern what others, like universities do, they may not be able to use inaccessible apps, but that doesn't mean that somebody couldn't sell them. Also, these things do not happen in a vacuum, or with out much consideration. For someone to suggest that the NFB has not tried to contact, and work with Google is naive at best. Also, lawsuits are expensive, time consuming, and disastrous if we loose. So, these things aren't lightly done, or just done to get publicity. Come on guys ..... think. We are not a bunch of idiots! David Andrews At 05:31 PM 3/16/2011, you wrote: >The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >a stretch, but it's all I can think of. > Best, >Kirt > >On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback > > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things > > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached > > google and offer to help with that process? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jorge Paez" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps > > complaint > > > > > > I don't know, > > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on > > this very list about > > precisely how accessible Google Apps are. > > > > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to > > get attention. > > > > And get attention for what exactly? > > > > Jorge > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > > > >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of > >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and > >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an > >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good > >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other > >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, > >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my > >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and > >> add events etc. > >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated > >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be > >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind > >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses > >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use > >> it...!! > >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> > >>> Precisely my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > >>> > >>> Or Google? > >>> > >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix > >>> that problem. > >>> > >>> Just my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Jorge > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hello, > >>>> > >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have > >>>> innovated and > >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW > >>>> works, but > >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies > >>>> doing > >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB > >>>> getting > >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader > >>>> companies are > >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused > >>>> to work on > >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National > >>>>> filed regarding > >>>>> universities using Google Apps. > >>>>> > >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but > >>>>>> the rest isn't. > >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of > >>>>> yet), > >>>>> > >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > >>>>> > >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that > >>>>> everything be > >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or > >>>>> are we complaining > >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could > >>>>> potentially pose > >>>>> problems? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> Jorge > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Nimer M. Jaber > >>>> > >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it > >>>> was sent. > >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, > >>>> please notify > >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. > >>>> Action taken > >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended > >>>> recipient > >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all > >>>> files on my > >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held > >>>> responsible > >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any > >>>> instructions > >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up > >>>> to you. > >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply > >>>> with these > >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy > >>>> all copies > >>>> of this email from your computer. > >>>> > >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. > >>>> http://counter.li.org/ > >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating > >>>> system, > >>>> please click here: > >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org > >>>> > >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for > >>>> windows XP > >>>> and above, please click here: > >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org > >>>> > >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com > >>>> > >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) > >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. From dandrews at visi.com Tue Mar 22 10:08:49 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 05:08:49 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <1B1E533F-5616-4BD3-A304-825490DDAF54@gmail.com> <897B667C-F358-4E2D-A897-29C4D22715BB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Kirt: Basically the answer to your question is yes. Th9is is how things are done. It would be some expensive and time consuming to identify all possible transgressors, and sue them all that it is common to pick a few and go from there. Dave At 09:35 AM 3/17/2011, you wrote: >Joe, > All I'm saying is this doesn't really solve the potential problem. >The press release mentions...what, 3 or 4 universities that are being >investigated. I think probably a lot more than that use google aps, >and that number's certainly growing. So is this just a way to bring >limited results and hopefully set a future precident? Cause, four out >of hundreds of universities (maybe not that many are using google aps, >but four out of a lot who do), seems like a comparatively small >affair. > Best, >Kirt > >On 3/17/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > > Joe, > > Maybe you are right. I don't know if you know anything else about the > > complaint other than what the press release tells us, but I > don't. The press > > release specifically says that Google apps doesn't let us use email and > > calendars, and that's not true. And if the NFB is going to complain about > > those to points, then they are wrong. If this whole argument comes from the > > fact that whoever prepared the press release didn't really know what the > > complaint was about and ended up providing readers with inaccurate > > information about it, then I don't really know what else to say... > > > > IC > > On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:04 AM, Joe Orozco wrote: > > > >> Ignasi, > >> > >> The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail, > >> Calendar, and Contacts. You can't possibly think that schools are > >> leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to > >> communicate and keep track of their schedules? It's about Docs, and Sites > >> and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational > >> field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out > >> their platforms. The press release could have been written a little > >> better > >> to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than > >> the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses. > >> > >> Kirt, > >> > >> I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare. We need to > >> understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under > >> the > >> sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most > >> immediate impact. I'm glad that education is important enough to the > >> leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of > >> studies for students. For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, > >> I'm > >> not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority. > >> > >> Jorge, > >> > >> If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't > >> attract > >> it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, educational > >> institutions. In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into > >> something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, > >> it > >> files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes > >> its > >> opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts. > >> There > >> are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities. > >> > >> Anyway, just my thoughts, > >> > >> Joe > >> > >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, > >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > >> Behalf > >> Of Ignasi Cambra > >> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM > >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > >> > >> Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for > >> opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when > >> you > >> log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but > >> there > >> is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different > >> version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You > >> can > >> navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine. > >> If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client > >> such > >> as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like! > >> The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big > >> problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's > >> actually > >> not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve > >> Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs > >> site > >> itself is not accessible. > >> On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, > >> wrote: > >> > >>> My school, nova, uses the google email application too. What I hate is > >> trying to open attachments. They are so hard to find among the links and > >> text! > >>> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite > >> frustrating. > >>> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software to > >> communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered. > >>> Ashley > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth > >>> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM > >>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > >>> > >>> > >>> Hello All, > >>> > >>> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from > >> my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some > >> colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true > >> because > >> my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and > >> somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as > >> such > >> is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to > >> go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in > >> what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic > >> information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or > >> university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to > >> all students. > >>> > >>> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth. > >>> > >>> Elizabeth > >>> > >>> > >>>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600 > >>>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com > >>>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > >>>> > >>>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not > >>>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I > >>>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the > >>>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, > >>>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some > >>>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like > >>>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. > >>>> Best, > >>>> Kirt > >>>> > >>>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > >>>>> I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback > >>>>> from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things > >>>>> that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached > >>>>> google and offer to help with that process? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>> From: "Jorge Paez" > >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >>>>> > >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM > >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps > >>>>> complaint > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I don't know, > >>>>> this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on > >>>>> this very list about > >>>>> precisely how accessible Google Apps are. > >>>>> > >>>>> Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to > >>>>> get attention. > >>>>> > >>>>> And get attention for what exactly? > >>>>> > >>>>> Jorge > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of > >>>>>> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and > >>>>>> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an > >>>>>> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good > >>>>>> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other > >>>>>> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, > >>>>>> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my > >>>>>> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and > >>>>>> add events etc. > >>>>>> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated > >>>>>> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be > >>>>>> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind > >>>>>> people in those universities is lying. My university uses > >>>>>> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use > >>>>>> it...!! > >>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Precisely my thoughts. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Or Google? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix > >>>>>>> that problem. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Just my thoughts. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Jorge > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hello, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have > >>>>>>>> innovated and > >>>>>>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW > >>>>>>>> works, but > >>>>>>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies > >>>>>>>> doing > >>>>>>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB > >>>>>>>> getting > >>>>>>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader > >>>>>>>> companies are > >>>>>>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused > >>>>>>>> to work on > >>>>>>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Thanks. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>>>>>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National > >>>>>>>>> filed regarding > >>>>>>>>> universities using Google Apps. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but > >>>>>>>>>> the rest isn't. > >>>>>>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of > >>>>>>>>> yet), > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that > >>>>>>>>> everything be > >>>>>>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or > >>>>>>>>> are we complaining > >>>>>>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could > >>>>>>>>> potentially pose > >>>>>>>>> problems? > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Thanks, > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Jorge > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>>>>>> info for > >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>>>>>> > >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail. > >> com > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Nimer M. Jaber > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it > >>>>>>>> was sent. > >>>>>>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, > >>>>>>>> please notify > >>>>>>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. > >>>>>>>> Action taken > >>>>>>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended > >>>>>>>> recipient > >>>>>>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all > >>>>>>>> files on my > >>>>>>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held > >>>>>>>> responsible > >>>>>>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any > >>>>>>>> instructions > >>>>>>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up > >>>>>>>> to you. > >>>>>>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply > >>>>>>>> with these > >>>>>>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy > >>>>>>>> all copies > >>>>>>>> of this email from your computer. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Registered Linux User 529141. > >>>>>>>> http://counter.li.org/ > >>>>>>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > >>>>>>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating > >>>>>>>> system, > >>>>>>>> please click here: > >>>>>>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for > >>>>>>>> windows XP > >>>>>>>> and above, please click here: > >>>>>>>> http://www.nvda-project.org > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > >>>>>>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) > >>>>>>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. > >>>>>>>> From orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 12:28:21 2011 From: orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com (Laura Glowacki) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:28:21 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice References: Message-ID: <07B689C99CB14A64AE798CA141572458@LAURASCOMPUTER> Prescription medications that are in pill form can be in your bag as any other item would be (carry-on or checked). If it's a liquid medication, then it would need to be in a ziplock bag and checked separately at the security checkpoing. If you know the airline you're flying with, you can go to their website and find very comprehensive information on baggage requirements, limitations and allowances, information for people traveling with service animals, people traveling with other mobility aids, and information about security measures affecting what you and cannot bring on the plane with you. I've flown several times by myself, and it's a fairly painless process. Good luck, Laura ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice You mentioned medicine in carry on bags. You might want to check TSA policy. I think medicine has to be stored in a clear bag, like a ziplock bag, with labels. That is a pain because you cannot carry it in a daily medicine container then. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: autTeal Bloodwortho Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:19 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice Hello Christopher I myself have only flown once and was treated with dignity by the airport attendants. You do need to be specific, as in other impairment you may or may not have. Personally I was never asked if I wanted to sit in a wheel chair but I also arrived at the airport departure gate with sighted guide and my foldable white cane erect. I was checked like any other passenger (cell phones, keys, etc need to be removed from your pockets). I myself was allowed to board the plane first but I was flying on a smaller plane that wasn't very crowded, I believe you are allowed 2 carry on baggage . This is where I put my electronic devices (labtop, stream, etc) and perscription medication and such. I don't remember the weight for these but think duffle bag/labtop bag or for a woman a purse. in your check in luggage you need to put any shampoos, soaps, shaving utensils, colognes, etc. I don't know how long ago it was that you last flew but security is alittle ridiculous. Even if you come to the airport with food or drink you are not allowed on the plane with it. hope i helped in some way. larger, busier airports are going to be slower in finding a flight attendant to assist you and you really have to be patient. I know in detroit from my arrival point to my departure point I had to go through 4 elevators and a moving sidewalk. You also may wanna keep your ittenary handy since your attendants may need the gate information. Good Luck -Teal ----- From: "christopher meyer" To: Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 5:32 PM Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice > Hey folks, my name's Christopher Meyer. I've been following the > message threads on the NABS list for, what, five or six months? > This > is my first time getting my name out to you all. I would rather > have > done so with just a "nice to meet you" post about myself, but a > pressing matter takes priority for me. > > I'm eighteen, blind, learning self-confidence, embracing the > use of my > cane, getting ready for college in the fall, and the prep > program at > Blind, Inc. in Miniapolis over the summer. > > That's all background information to explain that I'm becoming > more > acceptant of what I can see--or really what I can't see. > > In two weeks, I'll be facing a good test of this "new-found > confidence" as I've seen some of the NFB centers say they > provide. I'm > going to be flying by myself for the first time through > Indianapolis > International, Chicago Midway, and Newark Airport. I found the > TSA's > travel information and tips for "persons with disabilities and > medical > issues," which were helpful and reassuring for the security > checkpoint > process. I've contacted my airline support, told them I'll be > flying > in two weeks and will need an assistant. And I know that I can > take my > cane along without it counting as a cary-on piece or personal > item. > > Other than that, what do I need to know and prepare for? I've > flown > before a few years back and just vaguely remember the general > airport > layout. I do mean vaguely, so I'm anxious not knowing what to > expect > on that front. Any tips or information worth sharing? > > I'll be clear: I'm naturally pretty good at improvising. What I > don't > know right now I'll figure out soon enough--maybe while I'm en > route > to my first gate, maybe in Midway for my transfer and layover, > maybe > in Newark at baggage pickup. Who knows. But I'm also the kind > of > person who wants to be prepared for a challenge and hit it > head-on, > but prepared nonetheless. > Eager to hear back all the same. > > > Christopher > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com From orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 12:32:47 2011 From: orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com (Laura Glowacki) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 06:32:47 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] OT small group communication References: Message-ID: <1ABE36B1C497450ABEC946E9E116CA95@LAURASCOMPUTER> I've always used braille notes for presentations. I'm not very good at memorizing, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to read notes (as long as everyone else is allowed notes that is). Far from looking awkward, I think the use of braille allows you the appearance of making much more eye contact with the rest of the class than your sighted peers probably have as most of them stare down at their note cards. I've found cutting 8x11 braille sheets in half to create big notecards which are a little easier to handle. And do number the corners in order as the worst thing is to drop them and have them get out of order! Perhaps you can go last in the group; present the last chunk I mean? Or perhaps your group members can figure out a signal for you to know it's your turn. Or perhaps there's a signal phrase the group member before you will use to finish his/her information. For instance, in our communications class, we were required to put in verbal transitions between people. So group 1 member would finish his part by saying "and here's grop member 2 who will be talking about such-and-such." I like the phone alarm idea, but if it's in a group the timings may be no where near that exact. HTH, Laura ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication Greg, I usually have brailled on standard sheets and number them in case they get out of order; the typical 8 1/2 x 11 paper. Yep I agree its awkward though. Maybe I should try notecards. Although for this very short presentation it may make more sense just to have a sheet of notes. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Greg Aikens Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication Hey Ashley, I'm not sure why you posted this as OT since it very much deals with academic life. Here are some suggestions. Hopefully something is useful. As far as the handouts and ppt go, if it is from your group it shouldn't be a problem to ask for it ahead of time. If it is from other groups, you could send an email asking people to send you their handouts before class if possible so you can have them at the same time. Unfortunately, many students don't finish that kind of thing with a lot of lead time so you may not get them in advance. You could bring a flash drive with you for them to copy their materials on to if they are willing. I use all of these methods. last of all, you could scan them if you have to. As far as telling time during your presentation, get a braille watch. You can be far more discrete in watching your time. Another option is to set an alarm on your phone to give you a two minute warning. I have professors who do this. A silent alarm would be best. To keep track of your notes, you could use big sheets of braille paper and place them on the podium as you suggested, but I find reaching up to a podium and using two-handed braille reading to be awkward while speaking. You could braille your notes on note cards and then have your hands relatively free when not reading. I honestly haven't tried this one yet but plan to for my next presentation. Anyway, just some brainstorming. Maybe something in there helped. -Greg On Mar 21, 2011, at 9:05 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > > I could use some help and brainstorming ideas. > This is for an interpersonal communication project. > > A couple questions/concerns here. I’m doing a group > presentation on small > group roles; its very broad but we’re focussing on the > different power > people have and how the environment affects the roles we play. > One member is presenting the Stanford prison experiment with a > video clip. > Its on youtube I think. Its about a psychological experiment > where healthy > college students were assigned to be guards or inmates and what > happens in > an institution like that > > Some of my questions. > > 1. Everyone has access to the handouts via hard copy; one > member will > prepare a 1-2 page handout > How do you access things like this including powerpoint? Do you > just > insist on having them ahead of time? What about other > presenters in your > class? They will hand out stuff too. What do you do? Just take > it home and > scan? > What I will do is politely remind them that I cannot see the > paper and to > please read/paraphrase things on the handout. > > 2. How do you track time in a group presentation or public > speaking? > I have a watch I can see but I have to turn toward it with > tunnel vision > and even with a talking watch, I cannot exactly press it during > a > presentation. > I want to track time so in the last minute I can wrap things up > and > “transition” to the next speaker in this case. > > 3. I can read braille so plan to write out some notes. But > where do you > put these? Others will have notes in their hands or on screen. > Obviously I need to lay them down. Perhaps the podium? > > 4. If you have equipment, who operates that? The professor, > another > classmate? In the past I used the professor to change screens > for me or > click on videos. > > > Now for my other needs. Can you suggest some > people/experiments or > sources in the area of small group communication I can look up? > Often > having a person’s name helps to start it. > We do not need scholarly sources, but they do need to be > reputable; so > quoting experts is a good idea. > Articles or magazines sound good. > I will try the database tomorrow. I wish I had my social > psychology book; > that is what I really need! But I sold it away! > The only experiments that come to mind about roles are Milgrims > experiment > and the Zimbardo prison experiment. > So psychology and sociology majors, please suggest ideas! > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com From iperrault at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 11:52:11 2011 From: iperrault at hotmail.com (Ian Perrault) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 07:52:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Windows Live 2011 Message-ID: Hi I’m wondering how to get to the Windows Live 2011 contacts list with JAWS 12? I just got Windows 7 and still am getting used to it. I looked in the menus and in the ribbons and no contact option. Ian From gpaikens at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 12:26:20 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 07:26:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] OT small group communication In-Reply-To: <1ABE36B1C497450ABEC946E9E116CA95@LAURASCOMPUTER> References: <1ABE36B1C497450ABEC946E9E116CA95@LAURASCOMPUTER> Message-ID: <23888A7E-67D6-4278-A865-3E7902A76AB1@gmail.com> I didn't mean to suggest that reading braille looks awkward. I meant that because the height of most podiums is optimal for reading print, it puts my hands/arms at an awkward angle for reading, usually way up high. A table surface is generally too low. That's why I plan on trying the index cards. On Mar 22, 2011, at 7:32 AM, Laura Glowacki wrote: > I've always used braille notes for presentations. I'm not very > good at memorizing, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for you > to read notes (as long as everyone else is allowed notes that > is). Far from looking awkward, I think the use of braille allows > you the appearance of making much more eye contact with the rest > of the class than your sighted peers probably have as most of > them stare down at their note cards. > > I've found cutting 8x11 braille sheets in half to create big > notecards which are a little easier to handle. And do number the > corners in order as the worst thing is to drop them and have them > get out of order! > > Perhaps you can go last in the group; present the last chunk I > mean? Or perhaps your group members can figure out a signal for > you to know it's your turn. Or perhaps there's a signal phrase > the group member before you will use to finish his/her > information. For instance, in our communications class, we were > required to put in verbal transitions between people. So group 1 > member would finish his part by saying "and here's grop member 2 > who will be talking about such-and-such." I like the phone alarm > idea, but if it's in a group the timings may be no where near > that exact. > > HTH, > Laura > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 10:10 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication > > > Greg, > I usually have brailled on standard sheets and number them in > case they get > out of order; the typical 8 1/2 x 11 paper. > Yep I agree its awkward though. > > Maybe I should try notecards. Although for this very short > presentation it > may make more sense just to have a sheet of notes. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Aikens > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:12 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication > > Hey Ashley, > I'm not sure why you posted this as OT since it very much deals > with > academic life. Here are some suggestions. Hopefully something > is useful. > > As far as the handouts and ppt go, if it is from your group it > shouldn't be > a problem to ask for it ahead of time. If it is from other > groups, you > could send an email asking people to send you their handouts > before class if > possible so you can have them at the same time. Unfortunately, > many > students don't finish that kind of thing with a lot of lead time > so you may > not get them in advance. You could bring a flash drive with you > for them to > copy their materials on to if they are willing. I use all of > these methods. > last of all, you could scan them if you have to. > > As far as telling time during your presentation, get a braille > watch. You > can be far more discrete in watching your time. Another option > is to set an > alarm on your phone to give you a two minute warning. I have > professors who > do this. A silent alarm would be best. > > To keep track of your notes, you could use big sheets of braille > paper and > place them on the podium as you suggested, but I find reaching up > to a > podium and using two-handed braille reading to be awkward while > speaking. > You could braille your notes on note cards and then have your > hands > relatively free when not reading. I honestly haven't tried this > one yet but > plan to for my next presentation. > > Anyway, just some brainstorming. Maybe something in there > helped. > > -Greg > On Mar 21, 2011, at 9:05 PM, > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I could use some help and brainstorming ideas. >> This is for an interpersonal communication project. >> >> A couple questions/concerns here. I’m doing a group >> presentation on small >> group roles; its very broad but we’re focussing on the >> different power >> people have and how the environment affects the roles we play. >> One member is presenting the Stanford prison experiment with a >> video clip. >> Its on youtube I think. Its about a psychological experiment >> where healthy >> college students were assigned to be guards or inmates and what >> happens in >> an institution like that >> >> Some of my questions. >> >> 1. Everyone has access to the handouts via hard copy; one >> member will >> prepare a 1-2 page handout >> How do you access things like this including powerpoint? Do you >> just >> insist on having them ahead of time? What about other >> presenters in your >> class? They will hand out stuff too. What do you do? Just take >> it home and >> scan? >> What I will do is politely remind them that I cannot see the >> paper and to >> please read/paraphrase things on the handout. >> >> 2. How do you track time in a group presentation or public >> speaking? >> I have a watch I can see but I have to turn toward it with >> tunnel vision >> and even with a talking watch, I cannot exactly press it during >> a >> presentation. >> I want to track time so in the last minute I can wrap things up >> and >> “transition” to the next speaker in this case. >> >> 3. I can read braille so plan to write out some notes. But >> where do you >> put these? Others will have notes in their hands or on screen. >> Obviously I need to lay them down. Perhaps the podium? >> >> 4. If you have equipment, who operates that? The professor, >> another >> classmate? In the past I used the professor to change screens >> for me or >> click on videos. >> >> >> Now for my other needs. Can you suggest some >> people/experiments or >> sources in the area of small group communication I can look up? >> Often >> having a person’s name helps to start it. >> We do not need scholarly sources, but they do need to be >> reputable; so >> quoting experts is a good idea. >> Articles or magazines sound good. >> I will try the database tomorrow. I wish I had my social >> psychology book; >> that is what I really need! But I sold it away! >> The only experiments that come to mind about roles are Milgrims >> experiment >> and the Zimbardo prison experiment. >> So psychology and sociology majors, please suggest ideas! >> >> Thanks. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From trillian551 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 13:50:32 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:50:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues In-Reply-To: <706419D0D10A4B3FAD995408AA428059@OwnerPC> References: <706419D0D10A4B3FAD995408AA428059@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, I'm totally blind and I was able to follow this program by myself. Basically, you do common exercises like squats, all kinds, and she'll say what kind. For example she'll say, ok, now we'll do wide stance squats, so open your legs,f a bit further than shoulder width, and lets go and she'll say when it's time to stop. the only part that can be a little confusing is hte warmup, but once you know what a "chest fly is", which is basically opening and closing your arms at chest level, you can follow along with the cues she gives you. She cues absolutely everything verbally. The program has three stages, so you do each stage for about two weeks, every day. But hte first stage is only 25 minutes, and hte second is 45, the last is an hour, but if you really want to do it, you can put into your schedule. Beachbody also has personal coaches, basically someone you can exchange chats and emails with that will answer any questions you ay have about hte program, nutrition, etc. Good luck, and let me know if you have other questions. Mary On 3/21/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Mary, > Yes I do have a slow metabolism I feel. I do get the minum amount of > physical activity; but I need more. > BTW, I was a brides maid for my brother's wedding and I had a size 16 dress! > IT was the largest we could order. > Now I need to be in my other brother's wedding and do a reading. > > How is this DVD? Is it pretty verbal? Does she count out exercises and > names? Like saying "we will do ten squats" now. > How long did you do the workout and how many times a week? > Does it have common exercises too such as jumping jacks? > > I like the idea of a DVD workout because its structured and motivating like > having a trainer with you; but most I've heard of are too visual. > Glad this one worked. > That's wonderful you dropped sizes. > My mother is groaning that a size 14 dress may look too tight and yep it > feels tight somewhat. > But she seems to forget last wedding in 2008 I wore a 16 so she should be > happy that a size 14 even sort of fits. > I'm impressed there's an accessible DVD out there. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mary Fernandez > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:43 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > > Dear Ashley, > Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, but for > all of America. I think that you have done some good things already by > modifying your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just > wanted to look and feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size > six with a wonderfu program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is > really really simple, and you will actually learn the routine pretty > well. Most of the stuff she does is squats, and launges, things we all > know how to do. Go to www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly > affordable I think, and it is definiely worth the investment. I would > say to do the whole hting with a sighted friend, or perhaps your mom > the first time so that you get a good idea of what she's doing. Then, > you can do it on your own. I promise it works, it's easy, and it's > absolutely worth it. If you have specific quetions about it, please > let me know and I'll be more than happy to help. I'm glad that you are > taking the initiative to be healthier. So many of us are not blessed > with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle with looking gorgeous > and feeling great. So good luck > sincerely, > Mary F > > On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I >> am getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >> are the most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is >> it normal for a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing >> where your abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, >> and to me it works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not >> working. She tells me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do >> it because I do those exercises in PE anyways. >> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >> this can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >> discussions about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >> >>>Hi all, >> >>>I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >> weight upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food >> there. The freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but >> did gain some weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly >> noticed it until I put on different clothes. >>>BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my mom >> isn’t satisfied. >> >>>I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue >> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is >>>a person’s weight over height squared. >>>But its not far off. >>>I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it >> does affect your image and health. >>>Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with >> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >> >>>I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >> May and to have a better weight overall. >> >>>Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >> complex carbs. >>>For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat >> milk. >>>I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse >> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >> several years and do not see many results. I live with parents >> and my mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >> the refined kind! >> >> >>>I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot >> fit in a size 14 dress! >> >>>What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >> less calories? >>>I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and >> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >> >> >>>Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in >> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. >>>I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead >> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >> could not follow the fast pace! >>>I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most >> accessible. >> >>>I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the >> back basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >> too stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. >> >> >>>I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! >> >>>Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >> worked for you. >>>My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t admit >> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >> mid section is the hardest to lose. >>>Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose >> it. >>>I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when I’m >> out at a restaurant. >>>As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >> tap water. >>>I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I >> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >> night. >>>I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. >> But fruit never fills me up. >>>Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I >> am. >> >> >>>Let me know your ideas. >>>Ashley >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> 5369%40netzero.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > President: Georgia Association of Blind Students > Emory University 2012 > P.O. Box 123056 > Atlanta Ga. > 30322 > Phone: 732-857-7004 > > "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much > rather you weren't doing it." > Terry Pratchett > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Tue Mar 22 15:43:23 2011 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:43:23 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: <511B03ECDC63464A9DDD855AFB27A4C9@labarre> Greetings, for a variety of reasons, I usually try to stay silent on most of the interesting issues discussed on this list. Mostly, it is an issue of time. I appreciate very much the spirited debate and exploration of ideas among the student group. As many of you may know, I served as President of NABS in the early 1990's and therefore have a very fond place in my heart for student matters. With respect to the issue at hand, I guess you might say that I am a part of the "they" that everyone keeps tossing around. My good friend Dave Andrews is right to say that there has been a great deal of far flung speculation and off target surmising regarding the motivation of the NFB in this Google matter. We affect our advocacy initiatives through a variety of means, some of which are legal complaints filed both in court and with administrative agencies. Any direct legal action is first carefully considered and then executed just as carefully. All of our legal actions are anchored in one way or the other in Federation policy as adopted by the National Convention and through the resolution process. Ultimately, Dr. Maurer, our President, makes the call on a day-to-day basis about the legal matters we pursue. I have worked with Dr. Maurer on these matters in one way or the other ever since I graduated law school in 1993. I assure you that he is very judicious and mindful of the Federation resources we expend on legal advocacy. With specific respect to Google, we have called upon them to create accessible applications for a long time. We continue to have meetings with Google and recently we have hopefully found the right people within the corporate labyrinth to be engaging. I suspect you will be hearing from Dr. Maurer soon about these recent initiatives. It is essentially true that we cannot direct legal complaints directly at Google because of the current structure of the law. That is why we have structured these complaints against educational entities who use Google apps. We have to make it clear to entities who use products like those of Google that we will no longer tolerate inaccessibility when accessibility can readily be achieved either by fixing the underlying problem with the particular provider or using some other provider. Additionally, the filing of DOJ complaints is a very useful method and allows for more flexibility, in many ways, than simply filing a lawsuit in a traditional court of law. Over the years, we have achieved many comprehensive and creative settlements with DOJ involved. This time in history is critical. We will either stake out our rightful place in the information age or that age will race right past us. There are many ways to achieve our objective, one of them is the pursuit of well targeted legal complaints. Other ways include legislative approaches such as our introduction of the Technology Bill of Rights into the Congress. Once we get this legislation passed, a whole variety of technology manufacturers including software companies will have to consider nonvisual access on the front end of their designs. Also, we continue to educate technology providers of the importance of nonvisual access through a variety of means. The rapid growth of technology presents us with great opportunity. However, if we do not insist upon nonvisual accessibility now, a great deal of the future infrastructure will be built in such a way that it will become much more expensive to fix the system after it is already built. When we have meaningful nonvisual access, technology can open the same doors to us that are available to the sighted. If we don't have such nonvisual access, the barriers we face can become tremendous. Information technology has become such an integral part of every day life that our independence is directly tied to the ability to access this technology. Failure to act at this crucial time in history will set us farther out of the mainstream than we have been before. That is why we, the NFB, are so active in these technology based cases. We pursue with equal vigor legislative and educational solutions as well . Respectfully yours, I am, Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:02 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > Frankly, you and others are getting ridiculous in your speculation, > attribution of motives etc. We don't sue Google directly, because there > are no grounds. There is no law that says they have to develop accessible > applications. There are laws that govern what others, like universities > do, they may not be able to use inaccessible apps, but that doesn't mean > that somebody couldn't sell them. > > Also, these things do not happen in a vacuum, or with out much > consideration. For someone to suggest that the NFB has not tried to > contact, and work with Google is naive at best. Also, lawsuits are > expensive, time consuming, and disastrous if we loose. So, these things > aren't lightly done, or just done to get publicity. > > Come on guys ..... think. We are not a bunch of idiots! > > David Andrews > > At 05:31 PM 3/16/2011, you wrote: >>The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >> Best, >>Kirt >> >>On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >> > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >> > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >> > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >> > google and offer to help with that process? >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Jorge Paez" >> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >> > complaint >> > >> > >> > I don't know, >> > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >> > this very list about >> > precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >> > >> > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >> > get attention. >> > >> > And get attention for what exactly? >> > >> > Jorge >> > >> > >> > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >> > >> >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >> >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >> >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >> >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >> >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >> >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >> >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >> >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >> >> add events etc. >> >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >> >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >> >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >> >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >> >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >> >> it...!! >> >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >> >> >>> Precisely my thoughts. >> >>> >> >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >> >>> >> >>> Or Google? >> >>> >> >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >> >>> that problem. >> >>> >> >>> Just my thoughts. >> >>> >> >>> Jorge >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Hello, >> >>>> >> >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >> >>>> innovated and >> >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >> >>>> works, but >> >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >> >>>> doing >> >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >> >>>> getting >> >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >> >>>> companies are >> >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >> >>>> to work on >> >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >> >>>> >> >>>> Thanks. >> >>>> >> >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >> >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >> >>>>> filed regarding >> >>>>> universities using Google Apps. >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >> >>>>>> the rest isn't. >> >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >> >>>>> yet), >> >>>>> >> >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >> >>>>> everything be >> >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >> >>>>> are we complaining >> >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >> >>>>> potentially pose >> >>>>> problems? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Jorge >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> >>>>> info for >> >>>>> nabs-l: >> >>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> -- >> >>>> Nimer M. Jaber >> >>>> >> >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >> >>>> was sent. >> >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >> >>>> please notify >> >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >> >>>> Action taken >> >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >> >>>> recipient >> >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >> >>>> files on my >> >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >> >>>> responsible >> >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >> >>>> instructions >> >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >> >>>> to you. >> >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >> >>>> with these >> >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >> >>>> all copies >> >>>> of this email from your computer. >> >>>> >> >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >> >>>> http://counter.li.org/ >> >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >> >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >> >>>> system, >> >>>> please click here: >> >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >> >>>> >> >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >> >>>> windows XP >> >>>> and above, please click here: >> >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >> >>>> >> >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >> >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >> >>>> >> >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >> >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 20:09:10 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:09:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Weight issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Humberto and others, An "ideal" body type is not really attainable. Society has created images of what the "perfect" body is, but we are all born with specific body types. Genetics, bone structure, chemical make-up, lifestyle and a myriad of other elements create the bodies we have. We do not all look alike nor do we all have the ability to look, or fit into, a single body type. Exercise and healthy diet are important. Staying fit is not the same as being skinny or buff or fitting into one body image. I have spent years figuring these lessons out, and I have years of experience dealing with diet and fitness. It is easy to try to follow some prescribed standard set by society, or those close to us, but we must try to simply be healthy and accept the kind of body we have. Once we learn this, we can tailor our exercise and diet routine to shape the body we have. The main advice, when it comes to food, is to avoid trans-fats which are in most snack foods, and foods high in fat like fast food. Processed foods do not contribute to over-all health either. Try to fill your diet with fruits and veggies, and look for whole grains as opposed to processed bread. Watch your carb in-take, and in all things, seek balance. And learn portion control. This is most peoples problem. They eat way too big of portions. It is okay to indulge in certain foods like sweets or greasy food from time to time, but watch your portions. Most restaurants serve portions for 3 to 4 people, so this may give you an idea of what a single serving should look like. Any exercise is good. Studies are showing that fat build-up around the midsection can lead to health problems, but sit-ups only tone, which is good, but some form of a cardio work-out is essential for weight loss and general health. Walking, jogging, using stationary bikes, treadmills, elipticals and other aerobic activity will give you a cardio work-out. Exercising at least 4 times a week is usually what most recommend for an exercise regimine, but any activity is better than nothing. Mix up your toning with cardio. Women and men both should work on toning, though guys may work more on bulk and women usually just want a sleeker, tone. Regardless, a lot of people do cardio one day, and then work on the toning/definition the next. There is a lot of information and resources available on this topic. You can search on Google, talk to your doctor, visit a local gym or YMCA and even most grocery stores will be able to provide info on a healthy, balanced diet. And as blind people, we are more than capable to exercise and diet. I walk on a local walking trail during nice weather. I carry a hand weight and switch up what hand canes and what hand holds the weight. It is just a 2 pound weight. I keep a brisk, steady pace. I also jog on a mini-trampoline at home or use my eliptical which I have Braille labels on. I use to do yoga, but no longer have time to participate in a class. I try to work-out everyday, but of course, sometimes I just get busy. *smile* My husband walks on the trail too, and he likes to lift weights as well. When he can't get to the gym, he does push-ups and pull-ups at home. A friend of mine takes karate, and another friend of mine jogs with a sighted partner. If you are not sure about nutrition or serving sizes for food, visit http://directionsforme.com. This website is accessible, and provides ingredients, directions and nutrition info for many food products. I hope this helps. Bridgit Message: 17 Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:34:37 -0700 From: humberto To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Hi, This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I am getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what are the most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it normal for a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me it works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. She tells me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do those exercises in PE anyways. any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, this can result in a discussion that can lead to great other discussions about blindness and appearance among sighted public. From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 20:12:22 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:12:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT small group communication In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9395567C-4A89-4B26-801C-83FEC7F7E1C0@gmail.com> Check Google Scholar. Its a great resource for articles. Type in what you need and it'll present you with any search results it fines, but this time, unlike Google.com its only expert material that will come up. Jorge On Mar 21, 2011, at 10:05 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > > I could use some help and brainstorming ideas. > This is for an interpersonal communication project. > > A couple questions/concerns here. I’m doing a group presentation on small group roles; its very broad but we’re focussing on the different power people have and how the environment affects the roles we play. > One member is presenting the Stanford prison experiment with a video clip. Its on youtube I think. Its about a psychological experiment where healthy college students were assigned to be guards or inmates and what happens in an institution like that > > Some of my questions. > > 1. Everyone has access to the handouts via hard copy; one member will prepare a 1-2 page handout > How do you access things like this including powerpoint? Do you just insist on having them ahead of time? What about other presenters in your class? They will hand out stuff too. What do you do? Just take it home and scan? > What I will do is politely remind them that I cannot see the paper and to please read/paraphrase things on the handout. > > 2. How do you track time in a group presentation or public speaking? > I have a watch I can see but I have to turn toward it with tunnel vision and even with a talking watch, I cannot exactly press it during a presentation. > I want to track time so in the last minute I can wrap things up and “transition” to the next speaker in this case. > > 3. I can read braille so plan to write out some notes. But where do you put these? Others will have notes in their hands or on screen. > Obviously I need to lay them down. Perhaps the podium? > > 4. If you have equipment, who operates that? The professor, another classmate? In the past I used the professor to change screens for me or click on videos. > > > Now for my other needs. Can you suggest some people/experiments or sources in the area of small group communication I can look up? Often having a person’s name helps to start it. > We do not need scholarly sources, but they do need to be reputable; so quoting experts is a good idea. > Articles or magazines sound good. > I will try the database tomorrow. I wish I had my social psychology book; that is what I really need! But I sold it away! > The only experiments that come to mind about roles are Milgrims experiment and the Zimbardo prison experiment. > So psychology and sociology majors, please suggest ideas! > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 20:15:18 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:15:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Inc. In-Reply-To: <4D880483.7010108@gmail.com> References: <4D880483.7010108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87DC6FBF-14A7-424E-B334-88BF1072BDB7@gmail.com> Hi Jordyn: I went there last year. Its a great program, lots of learning, but lots of fun too. School's a bit long (at least for me), but you always get to do something after school/on the weekends. Its a great program that seems to strike the right balance between school and fun. Just be ready for challenges, and having to improvise stuff, specially when you go to convention. Jorge On Mar 21, 2011, at 10:08 PM, Jordyn Castor wrote: > Hey NABS, > I'm looking for people who have attended the summer program for blind students in Minnesota. What did you like about the program, and what didn't you like? I just need opinions because I'm looking into going there this summer. > Thanks, and feel free to email me off list if you want because I know we've already talked about this sort of thing! > Jordyn > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 20:24:02 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:24:02 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Weight issues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Don't get caught up on dress size either. Some people lose in pounds, and others lose in inches. Dress size does not necessarily denote great shape or health. A friend of mine and I wear the same size, but one of us has a longer, leaner appearance, and the other has a more muscular physique. And height accounts for a lot too. My sister is only 5 feet tall, while I am 5'5" tall, so a certain size on me would be completely different on her. And it is not true that women are pear-shaped. There are different body shapes for men and women. Women and men tend to fit into one of these categories: A-shape which is smaller on top, but larger on the bottom. Y-shaped which is broad through the shoulders and chest, but slim below the chest. O-shaped which is round all over. X-shaped which is an even symmetry-- tend to be slender. H-shaped which is straight up-and-down-- tend to be lanky. Bridgit Message: 20 Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 23:59:29 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Message-ID: <706419D0D10A4B3FAD995408AA428059 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Mary, Yes I do have a slow metabolism I feel. I do get the minum amount of physical activity; but I need more. BTW, I was a brides maid for my brother's wedding and I had a size 16 dress! IT was the largest we could order. Now I need to be in my other brother's wedding and do a reading. How is this DVD? Is it pretty verbal? Does she count out exercises and names? Like saying "we will do ten squats" now. How long did you do the workout and how many times a week? Does it have common exercises too such as jumping jacks? I like the idea of a DVD workout because its structured and motivating like having a trainer with you; but most I've heard of are too visual. Glad this one worked. That's wonderful you dropped sizes. My mother is groaning that a size 14 dress may look too tight and yep it feels tight somewhat. But she seems to forget last wedding in 2008 I wore a 16 so she should be happy that a size 14 even sort of fits. I'm impressed there's an accessible DVD out there. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mary Fernandez Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Dear Ashley, Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, but for all of America. I think that you have done some good things already by modifying your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just wanted to look and feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a wonderfu program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really really simple, and you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the stuff she does is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, and it is definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole hting with a sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you get a good idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I promise it works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have specific quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than happy to help. I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So many of us are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle with looking gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 20:30:09 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:30:09 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Group communication In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I know it may not be optimum for two-handed Braille reading, but if it is just notes, what about using a clipboard? You can just hold the clipboard and do not have to worry about where to place your notes, or dealing with a surface that may be too low or too high. Bridgit From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 20:35:17 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 15:35:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Confused- regarding- NFB Google Apps Complaint In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here, here! *smile* Bridgit P Message: 29 Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:43:23 -0600 From: "Scott C. LaBarre" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Message-ID: <511B03ECDC63464A9DDD855AFB27A4C9 at labarre> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response Greetings, for a variety of reasons, I usually try to stay silent on most of the interesting issues discussed on this list. Mostly, it is an issue of time. I appreciate very much the spirited debate and exploration of ideas among the student group. As many of you may know, I served as President of NABS in the early 1990's and therefore have a very fond place in my heart for student matters. With respect to the issue at hand, I guess you might say that I am a part of the "they" that everyone keeps tossing around. My good friend Dave Andrews is right to say that there has been a great deal of far flung speculation and off target surmising regarding the motivation of the NFB in this Google matter. We affect our advocacy initiatives through a variety of means, some of which are legal complaints filed both in court and with administrative agencies. Any direct legal action is first carefully considered and then executed just as carefully. All of our legal actions are anchored in one way or the other in Federation policy as adopted by the National Convention and through the resolution process. Ultimately, Dr. Maurer, our President, makes the call on a day-to-day basis about the legal matters we pursue. I have worked with Dr. Maurer on these matters in one way or the other ever since I graduated law school in 1993. I assure you that he is very judicious and mindful of the Federation resources we expend on legal advocacy. With specific respect to Google, we have called upon them to create accessible applications for a long time. We continue to have meetings with Google and recently we have hopefully found the right people within the corporate labyrinth to be engaging. I suspect you will be hearing from Dr. Maurer soon about these recent initiatives. It is essentially true that we cannot direct legal complaints directly at Google because of the current structure of the law. That is why we have structured these complaints against educational entities who use Google apps. We have to make it clear to entities who use products like those of Google that we will no longer tolerate inaccessibility when accessibility can readily be achieved either by fixing the underlying problem with the particular provider or using some other provider. Additionally, the filing of DOJ complaints is a very useful method and allows for more flexibility, in many ways, than simply filing a lawsuit in a traditional court of law. Over the years, we have achieved many comprehensive and creative settlements with DOJ involved. This time in history is critical. We will either stake out our rightful place in the information age or that age will race right past us. There are many ways to achieve our objective, one of them is the pursuit of well targeted legal complaints. Other ways include legislative approaches such as our introduction of the Technology Bill of Rights into the Congress. Once we get this legislation passed, a whole variety of technology manufacturers including software companies will have to consider nonvisual access on the front end of their designs. Also, we continue to educate technology providers of the importance of nonvisual access through a variety of means. The rapid growth of technology presents us with great opportunity. However, if we do not insist upon nonvisual accessibility now, a great deal of the future infrastructure will be built in such a way that it will become much more expensive to fix the system after it is already built. When we have meaningful nonvisual access, technology can open the same doors to us that are available to the sighted. If we don't have such nonvisual access, the barriers we face can become tremendous. Information technology has become such an integral part of every day life that our independence is directly tied to the ability to access this technology. Failure to act at this crucial time in history will set us farther out of the mainstream than we have been before. That is why we, the NFB, are so active in these technology based cases. We pursue with equal vigor legislative and educational solutions as well . Respectfully yours, I am, Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 20:35:29 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:35:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Weight issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7233DDC3C9DE45E9A64A89F99D4C7916@OwnerPC> I was generalizing. Women are often pear shaped and men the apple shape. As for dress size, I know what you mean, but my mom will not buy another size. She wants size 14 and says I better lose weight because that is the nicest looking dress. -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:24 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Weight issues Don't get caught up on dress size either. Some people lose in pounds, and others lose in inches. Dress size does not necessarily denote great shape or health. A friend of mine and I wear the same size, but one of us has a longer, leaner appearance, and the other has a more muscular physique. And height accounts for a lot too. My sister is only 5 feet tall, while I am 5'5" tall, so a certain size on me would be completely different on her. And it is not true that women are pear-shaped. There are different body shapes for men and women. Women and men tend to fit into one of these categories: A-shape which is smaller on top, but larger on the bottom. Y-shaped which is broad through the shoulders and chest, but slim below the chest. O-shaped which is round all over. X-shaped which is an even symmetry-- tend to be slender. H-shaped which is straight up-and-down-- tend to be lanky. Bridgit Message: 20 Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 23:59:29 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Message-ID: <706419D0D10A4B3FAD995408AA428059 at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; reply-type=original Mary, Yes I do have a slow metabolism I feel. I do get the minum amount of physical activity; but I need more. BTW, I was a brides maid for my brother's wedding and I had a size 16 dress! IT was the largest we could order. Now I need to be in my other brother's wedding and do a reading. How is this DVD? Is it pretty verbal? Does she count out exercises and names? Like saying "we will do ten squats" now. How long did you do the workout and how many times a week? Does it have common exercises too such as jumping jacks? I like the idea of a DVD workout because its structured and motivating like having a trainer with you; but most I've heard of are too visual. Glad this one worked. That's wonderful you dropped sizes. My mother is groaning that a size 14 dress may look too tight and yep it feels tight somewhat. But she seems to forget last wedding in 2008 I wore a 16 so she should be happy that a size 14 even sort of fits. I'm impressed there's an accessible DVD out there. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Mary Fernandez Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:43 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Dear Ashley, Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, but for all of America. I think that you have done some good things already by modifying your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just wanted to look and feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a wonderfu program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really really simple, and you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the stuff she does is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, and it is definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole hting with a sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you get a good idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I promise it works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have specific quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than happy to help. I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So many of us are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle with looking gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 20:39:19 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:39:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT small group communication In-Reply-To: <23888A7E-67D6-4278-A865-3E7902A76AB1@gmail.com> References: <1ABE36B1C497450ABEC946E9E116CA95@LAURASCOMPUTER> <23888A7E-67D6-4278-A865-3E7902A76AB1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <576E714F33EA431196465C8F4D42D674@OwnerPC> Greg, Absolutely; that is what I meant by feels awkward. It puts your arms at a high awkward angle. Maybe just putting them on the table would work. I can still stand up there in the right position within the group. The table is in front of the potium. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Greg Aikens Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 8:26 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication I didn't mean to suggest that reading braille looks awkward. I meant that because the height of most podiums is optimal for reading print, it puts my hands/arms at an awkward angle for reading, usually way up high. A table surface is generally too low. That's why I plan on trying the index cards. On Mar 22, 2011, at 7:32 AM, Laura Glowacki wrote: > I've always used braille notes for presentations. I'm not very > good at memorizing, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for you > to read notes (as long as everyone else is allowed notes that > is). Far from looking awkward, I think the use of braille allows > you the appearance of making much more eye contact with the rest > of the class than your sighted peers probably have as most of > them stare down at their note cards. > > I've found cutting 8x11 braille sheets in half to create big > notecards which are a little easier to handle. And do number the > corners in order as the worst thing is to drop them and have them > get out of order! > > Perhaps you can go last in the group; present the last chunk I > mean? Or perhaps your group members can figure out a signal for > you to know it's your turn. Or perhaps there's a signal phrase > the group member before you will use to finish his/her > information. For instance, in our communications class, we were > required to put in verbal transitions between people. So group 1 > member would finish his part by saying "and here's grop member 2 > who will be talking about such-and-such." I like the phone alarm > idea, but if it's in a group the timings may be no where near > that exact. > > HTH, > Laura > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 10:10 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication > > > Greg, > I usually have brailled on standard sheets and number them in > case they get > out of order; the typical 8 1/2 x 11 paper. > Yep I agree its awkward though. > > Maybe I should try notecards. Although for this very short > presentation it > may make more sense just to have a sheet of notes. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Aikens > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:12 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication > > Hey Ashley, > I'm not sure why you posted this as OT since it very much deals > with > academic life. Here are some suggestions. Hopefully something > is useful. > > As far as the handouts and ppt go, if it is from your group it > shouldn't be > a problem to ask for it ahead of time. If it is from other > groups, you > could send an email asking people to send you their handouts > before class if > possible so you can have them at the same time. Unfortunately, > many > students don't finish that kind of thing with a lot of lead time > so you may > not get them in advance. You could bring a flash drive with you > for them to > copy their materials on to if they are willing. I use all of > these methods. > last of all, you could scan them if you have to. > > As far as telling time during your presentation, get a braille > watch. You > can be far more discrete in watching your time. Another option > is to set an > alarm on your phone to give you a two minute warning. I have > professors who > do this. A silent alarm would be best. > > To keep track of your notes, you could use big sheets of braille > paper and > place them on the podium as you suggested, but I find reaching up > to a > podium and using two-handed braille reading to be awkward while > speaking. > You could braille your notes on note cards and then have your > hands > relatively free when not reading. I honestly haven't tried this > one yet but > plan to for my next presentation. > > Anyway, just some brainstorming. Maybe something in there > helped. > > -Greg > On Mar 21, 2011, at 9:05 PM, > wrote: > >> Hi all, >> >> I could use some help and brainstorming ideas. >> This is for an interpersonal communication project. >> >> A couple questions/concerns here. I’m doing a group >> presentation on small >> group roles; its very broad but we’re focussing on the >> different power >> people have and how the environment affects the roles we play. >> One member is presenting the Stanford prison experiment with a >> video clip. >> Its on youtube I think. Its about a psychological experiment >> where healthy >> college students were assigned to be guards or inmates and what >> happens in >> an institution like that >> >> Some of my questions. >> >> 1. Everyone has access to the handouts via hard copy; one >> member will >> prepare a 1-2 page handout >> How do you access things like this including powerpoint? Do you >> just >> insist on having them ahead of time? What about other >> presenters in your >> class? They will hand out stuff too. What do you do? Just take >> it home and >> scan? >> What I will do is politely remind them that I cannot see the >> paper and to >> please read/paraphrase things on the handout. >> >> 2. How do you track time in a group presentation or public >> speaking? >> I have a watch I can see but I have to turn toward it with >> tunnel vision >> and even with a talking watch, I cannot exactly press it during >> a >> presentation. >> I want to track time so in the last minute I can wrap things up >> and >> “transition” to the next speaker in this case. >> >> 3. I can read braille so plan to write out some notes. But >> where do you >> put these? Others will have notes in their hands or on screen. >> Obviously I need to lay them down. Perhaps the podium? >> >> 4. If you have equipment, who operates that? The professor, >> another >> classmate? In the past I used the professor to change screens >> for me or >> click on videos. >> >> >> Now for my other needs. Can you suggest some >> people/experiments or >> sources in the area of small group communication I can look up? >> Often >> having a person’s name helps to start it. >> We do not need scholarly sources, but they do need to be >> reputable; so >> quoting experts is a good idea. >> Articles or magazines sound good. >> I will try the database tomorrow. I wish I had my social >> psychology book; >> that is what I really need! But I sold it away! >> The only experiments that come to mind about roles are Milgrims >> experiment >> and the Zimbardo prison experiment. >> So psychology and sociology majors, please suggest ideas! >> >> Thanks. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From trev.saunders at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 20:40:34 2011 From: trev.saunders at gmail.com (Trevor Saunders) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:40:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <5D887E383FD94C03863A724DAAB8A4C3@OwnerPC> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <20110321061543.GA18687@football.tbsaunde.org> <5D887E383FD94C03863A724DAAB8A4C3@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <20110322204034.GA17465@football.tbsaunde.org> On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 10:04:09AM -0400, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > This message was blank, Trevor. no, it wasn't look at the attachments, your email client doesn't seem to support RFC 3156. Trev > > -----Original Message----- From: Trevor Saunders > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 2:15 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trev.saunders%40gmail.com From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 20:43:28 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:43:28 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT small group communication In-Reply-To: <1ABE36B1C497450ABEC946E9E116CA95@LAURASCOMPUTER> References: <1ABE36B1C497450ABEC946E9E116CA95@LAURASCOMPUTER> Message-ID: Laura, What I mean is braille up high on a potium is awkward due to the position. I cannot memorize it all either; for longer presentations, I like the idea of numbered half pages. I'll try that next time. This one though just needs one page. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Laura Glowacki Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 8:32 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication I've always used braille notes for presentations. I'm not very good at memorizing, and I think it's perfectly reasonable for you to read notes (as long as everyone else is allowed notes that is). Far from looking awkward, I think the use of braille allows you the appearance of making much more eye contact with the rest of the class than your sighted peers probably have as most of them stare down at their note cards. I've found cutting 8x11 braille sheets in half to create big notecards which are a little easier to handle. And do number the corners in order as the worst thing is to drop them and have them get out of order! Perhaps you can go last in the group; present the last chunk I mean? Or perhaps your group members can figure out a signal for you to know it's your turn. Or perhaps there's a signal phrase the group member before you will use to finish his/her information. For instance, in our communications class, we were required to put in verbal transitions between people. So group 1 member would finish his part by saying "and here's grop member 2 who will be talking about such-and-such." I like the phone alarm idea, but if it's in a group the timings may be no where near that exact. HTH, Laura ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 10:10 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication Greg, I usually have brailled on standard sheets and number them in case they get out of order; the typical 8 1/2 x 11 paper. Yep I agree its awkward though. Maybe I should try notecards. Although for this very short presentation it may make more sense just to have a sheet of notes. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Greg Aikens Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication Hey Ashley, I'm not sure why you posted this as OT since it very much deals with academic life. Here are some suggestions. Hopefully something is useful. As far as the handouts and ppt go, if it is from your group it shouldn't be a problem to ask for it ahead of time. If it is from other groups, you could send an email asking people to send you their handouts before class if possible so you can have them at the same time. Unfortunately, many students don't finish that kind of thing with a lot of lead time so you may not get them in advance. You could bring a flash drive with you for them to copy their materials on to if they are willing. I use all of these methods. last of all, you could scan them if you have to. As far as telling time during your presentation, get a braille watch. You can be far more discrete in watching your time. Another option is to set an alarm on your phone to give you a two minute warning. I have professors who do this. A silent alarm would be best. To keep track of your notes, you could use big sheets of braille paper and place them on the podium as you suggested, but I find reaching up to a podium and using two-handed braille reading to be awkward while speaking. You could braille your notes on note cards and then have your hands relatively free when not reading. I honestly haven't tried this one yet but plan to for my next presentation. Anyway, just some brainstorming. Maybe something in there helped. -Greg On Mar 21, 2011, at 9:05 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > > I could use some help and brainstorming ideas. > This is for an interpersonal communication project. > > A couple questions/concerns here. I’m doing a group > presentation on small > group roles; its very broad but we’re focussing on the > different power > people have and how the environment affects the roles we play. > One member is presenting the Stanford prison experiment with a > video clip. > Its on youtube I think. Its about a psychological experiment > where healthy > college students were assigned to be guards or inmates and what > happens in > an institution like that > > Some of my questions. > > 1. Everyone has access to the handouts via hard copy; one > member will > prepare a 1-2 page handout > How do you access things like this including powerpoint? Do you > just > insist on having them ahead of time? What about other > presenters in your > class? They will hand out stuff too. What do you do? Just take > it home and > scan? > What I will do is politely remind them that I cannot see the > paper and to > please read/paraphrase things on the handout. > > 2. How do you track time in a group presentation or public > speaking? > I have a watch I can see but I have to turn toward it with > tunnel vision > and even with a talking watch, I cannot exactly press it during > a > presentation. > I want to track time so in the last minute I can wrap things up > and > “transition” to the next speaker in this case. > > 3. I can read braille so plan to write out some notes. But > where do you > put these? Others will have notes in their hands or on screen. > Obviously I need to lay them down. Perhaps the podium? > > 4. If you have equipment, who operates that? The professor, > another > classmate? In the past I used the professor to change screens > for me or > click on videos. > > > Now for my other needs. Can you suggest some > people/experiments or > sources in the area of small group communication I can look up? > Often > having a person’s name helps to start it. > We do not need scholarly sources, but they do need to be > reputable; so > quoting experts is a good idea. > Articles or magazines sound good. > I will try the database tomorrow. I wish I had my social > psychology book; > that is what I really need! But I sold it away! > The only experiments that come to mind about roles are Milgrims > experiment > and the Zimbardo prison experiment. > So psychology and sociology majors, please suggest ideas! > > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From hope.paulos at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 20:47:23 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:47:23 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Weight issues References: <7233DDC3C9DE45E9A64A89F99D4C7916@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Also, dress sizes may differ depending on the company. For instance, I might be able to fit into a size 6 dress from one company and need a size 10 in another. I wanted to also comment on Bridgit's wonderful post regarding exercise andhealthy diet. Portion control is key, but you should also try to measure calories you put in your body and the calories you burn exercising. At first I thought this was going to be difficult, being totally blind, but there are pieces of technology you can use in order to be successful. I've used a talking pedometer in the past and now I use my ipod with the nike plus sensor. Once calibrated, the sensor is very accurate. Am using a treadmill and also another app to assist me with training to run a full marathon. Hope and Beignet ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Weight issues >I was generalizing. Women are often pear shaped and men the apple shape. > As for dress size, I know what you mean, but my mom will not buy another > size. She wants size 14 and says I better lose weight because that is the > nicest looking dress. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:24 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Weight issues > > Don't get caught up on dress size either. Some people lose in pounds, > and others lose in inches. Dress size does not necessarily denote great > shape or health. > > A friend of mine and I wear the same size, but one of us has a longer, > leaner appearance, and the other has a more muscular physique. > > And height accounts for a lot too. My sister is only 5 feet tall, while > I am 5'5" tall, so a certain size on me would be completely different on > her. > > And it is not true that women are pear-shaped. There are different body > shapes for men and women. Women and men tend to fit into one of these > categories: > > A-shape which is smaller on top, but larger on the bottom. > Y-shaped which is broad through the shoulders and chest, but slim below > the chest. > O-shaped which is round all over. > X-shaped which is an even symmetry-- tend to be slender. > H-shaped which is straight up-and-down-- tend to be lanky. > > Bridgit > > Message: 20 > Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 23:59:29 -0400 > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > Message-ID: <706419D0D10A4B3FAD995408AA428059 at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; > reply-type=original > > Mary, > Yes I do have a slow metabolism I feel. I do get the minum amount of > physical activity; but I need more. > BTW, I was a brides maid for my brother's wedding and I had a size 16 > dress! > IT was the largest we could order. > Now I need to be in my other brother's wedding and do a reading. > > How is this DVD? Is it pretty verbal? Does she count out exercises and > names? Like saying "we will do ten squats" now. > How long did you do the workout and how many times a week? > Does it have common exercises too such as jumping jacks? > > I like the idea of a DVD workout because its structured and motivating > like > having a trainer with you; but most I've heard of are too visual. > Glad this one worked. > That's wonderful you dropped sizes. > My mother is groaning that a size 14 dress may look too tight and yep it > > feels tight somewhat. > But she seems to forget last wedding in 2008 I wore a 16 so she should > be > happy that a size 14 even sort of fits. > I'm impressed there's an accessible DVD out there. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mary Fernandez > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:43 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > > Dear Ashley, > Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, but for > all of America. I think that you have done some good things already by > modifying your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just > wanted to look and feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size > six with a wonderfu program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is > really really simple, and you will actually learn the routine pretty > well. Most of the stuff she does is squats, and launges, things we all > know how to do. Go to www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly > affordable I think, and it is definiely worth the investment. I would > say to do the whole hting with a sighted friend, or perhaps your mom > the first time so that you get a good idea of what she's doing. Then, > you can do it on your own. I promise it works, it's easy, and it's > absolutely worth it. If you have specific quetions about it, please > let me know and I'll be more than happy to help. I'm glad that you are > taking the initiative to be healthier. So many of us are not blessed > with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle with looking gorgeous > and feeling great. So good luck > sincerely, > Mary F > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 22 20:47:59 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:47:59 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> Message-ID: <732817E3AA7347F8989BA4A5007B3EFD@OwnerPC> That's true and I said that. There are no grounds to sue google; yet universities need to provide accessible content to students. I hope they prevail and google changes because they will lose business from the university. -----Original Message----- From: David Andrews Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 6:02 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint Frankly, you and others are getting ridiculous in your speculation, attribution of motives etc. We don't sue Google directly, because there are no grounds. There is no law that says they have to develop accessible applications. There are laws that govern what others, like universities do, they may not be able to use inaccessible apps, but that doesn't mean that somebody couldn't sell them. Also, these things do not happen in a vacuum, or with out much consideration. For someone to suggest that the NFB has not tried to contact, and work with Google is naive at best. Also, lawsuits are expensive, time consuming, and disastrous if we loose. So, these things aren't lightly done, or just done to get publicity. Come on guys ..... think. We are not a bunch of idiots! David Andrews At 05:31 PM 3/16/2011, you wrote: >The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >a stretch, but it's all I can think of. > Best, >Kirt > >On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback > > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things > > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached > > google and offer to help with that process? > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Jorge Paez" > > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps > > complaint > > > > > > I don't know, > > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on > > this very list about > > precisely how accessible Google Apps are. > > > > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to > > get attention. > > > > And get attention for what exactly? > > > > Jorge > > > > > > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > > > >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of > >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and > >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an > >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good > >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other > >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, > >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my > >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and > >> add events etc. > >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated > >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be > >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind > >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses > >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use > >> it...!! > >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: > >> > >>> Precisely my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? > >>> > >>> Or Google? > >>> > >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix > >>> that problem. > >>> > >>> Just my thoughts. > >>> > >>> Jorge > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: > >>> > >>>> Hello, > >>>> > >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have > >>>> innovated and > >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW > >>>> works, but > >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies > >>>> doing > >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB > >>>> getting > >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader > >>>> companies are > >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused > >>>> to work on > >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... > >>>> > >>>> Thanks. > >>>> > >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: > >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. > >>>>> > >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National > >>>>> filed regarding > >>>>> universities using Google Apps. > >>>>> > >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but > >>>>>> the rest isn't. > >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of > >>>>> yet), > >>>>> > >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. > >>>>> > >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that > >>>>> everything be > >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or > >>>>> are we complaining > >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could > >>>>> potentially pose > >>>>> problems? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> Jorge > >>>>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>>> nabs-l mailing list > >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > >>>>> info for > >>>>> nabs-l: > >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Nimer M. Jaber > >>>> > >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it > >>>> was sent. > >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, > >>>> please notify > >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. > >>>> Action taken > >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended > >>>> recipient > >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all > >>>> files on my > >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held > >>>> responsible > >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any > >>>> instructions > >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up > >>>> to you. > >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply > >>>> with these > >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy > >>>> all copies > >>>> of this email from your computer. > >>>> > >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. > >>>> http://counter.li.org/ > >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator > >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating > >>>> system, > >>>> please click here: > >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org > >>>> > >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for > >>>> windows XP > >>>> and above, please click here: > >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org > >>>> > >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: > >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com > >>>> > >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) > >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From trillian551 at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 20:49:54 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:49:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Weight issues In-Reply-To: <7233DDC3C9DE45E9A64A89F99D4C7916@OwnerPC> References: <7233DDC3C9DE45E9A64A89F99D4C7916@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Dear Ashley, I'm not quite sure what you mean by pear shape and apple shape. Typically, women are either top heavy, btoom heavy, which is what typically we mean by pear shape, or hour glass, which is pretty balanced on top and bottom. As far as dress size, especially for women, size is the most unreliable thing to measure anyone by. There is not standardization and while a brand like INC a size 8 would be a size six in Michael Kors. I would try to talk to your mom, and say that while you understand where she is coming from, we are all built differently, that you wan to be healthier, however, it truly isn't fair or reasonable to measure you and treat you differently because of your dress size. You know? I think it is essential that we all have a good self-image, we can't measure ourselves by annorexic models, but we should strive to feel good about ourselves and the way we look. But we should also try to be as healthy as possible since over weight has been proven over and over to affect much of our health. Sincerely, Mary F On 3/22/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > I was generalizing. Women are often pear shaped and men the apple shape. > As for dress size, I know what you mean, but my mom will not buy another > size. She wants size 14 and says I better lose weight because that is the > nicest looking dress. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bridgit Pollpeter > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:24 PM > To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org > Subject: [nabs-l] Weight issues > > Don't get caught up on dress size either. Some people lose in pounds, > and others lose in inches. Dress size does not necessarily denote great > shape or health. > > A friend of mine and I wear the same size, but one of us has a longer, > leaner appearance, and the other has a more muscular physique. > > And height accounts for a lot too. My sister is only 5 feet tall, while > I am 5'5" tall, so a certain size on me would be completely different on > her. > > And it is not true that women are pear-shaped. There are different body > shapes for men and women. Women and men tend to fit into one of these > categories: > > A-shape which is smaller on top, but larger on the bottom. > Y-shaped which is broad through the shoulders and chest, but slim below > the chest. > O-shaped which is round all over. > X-shaped which is an even symmetry-- tend to be slender. > H-shaped which is straight up-and-down-- tend to be lanky. > > Bridgit > > Message: 20 > Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 23:59:29 -0400 > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > Message-ID: <706419D0D10A4B3FAD995408AA428059 at OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; > reply-type=original > > Mary, > Yes I do have a slow metabolism I feel. I do get the minum amount of > physical activity; but I need more. > BTW, I was a brides maid for my brother's wedding and I had a size 16 > dress! > IT was the largest we could order. > Now I need to be in my other brother's wedding and do a reading. > > How is this DVD? Is it pretty verbal? Does she count out exercises and > names? Like saying "we will do ten squats" now. > How long did you do the workout and how many times a week? > Does it have common exercises too such as jumping jacks? > > I like the idea of a DVD workout because its structured and motivating > like > having a trainer with you; but most I've heard of are too visual. > Glad this one worked. > That's wonderful you dropped sizes. > My mother is groaning that a size 14 dress may look too tight and yep it > > feels tight somewhat. > But she seems to forget last wedding in 2008 I wore a 16 so she should > be > happy that a size 14 even sort of fits. > I'm impressed there's an accessible DVD out there. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mary Fernandez > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:43 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > > Dear Ashley, > Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, but for > all of America. I think that you have done some good things already by > modifying your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just > wanted to look and feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size > six with a wonderfu program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is > really really simple, and you will actually learn the routine pretty > well. Most of the stuff she does is squats, and launges, things we all > know how to do. Go to www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly > affordable I think, and it is definiely worth the investment. I would > say to do the whole hting with a sighted friend, or perhaps your mom > the first time so that you get a good idea of what she's doing. Then, > you can do it on your own. I promise it works, it's easy, and it's > absolutely worth it. If you have specific quetions about it, please > let me know and I'll be more than happy to help. I'm glad that you are > taking the initiative to be healthier. So many of us are not blessed > with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle with looking gorgeous > and feeling great. So good luck > sincerely, > Mary F > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From JFreeh at nfb.org Tue Mar 22 21:17:31 2011 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:17:31 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] National Federation of the Blind Comments on Rejection of Google Books Settlement Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org National Federation of the Blind Comments on Rejection of Google Books Settlement Baltimore, Maryland (March 22, 2011): Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: "The National Federation of the Blind supports access by the blind to the vast amount of knowledge contained in the millions of books available throughout the world, and we believe that the Google Books settlement is one way to achieve that access. For that reason, we are disappointed that the court has rejected the settlement. We will analyze the decision carefully and then determine our future course." On September 10, 2009, the National Federation of the Blind testified before the House Judiciary Committee that the proposed settlement between Google and authors and publishers regarding the Google Books project should be approved. The Google Books settlement would have made millions of titles available to the blind and other Americans with print disabilities, providing more access to the printed word than the blind have had in all of human history. ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people's lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 21:23:48 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 17:23:48 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <511B03ECDC63464A9DDD855AFB27A4C9@labarre> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <511B03ECDC63464A9DDD855AFB27A4C9@labarre> Message-ID: <394FD088-BB52-4034-B57D-A8CA9D417606@gmail.com> Thanks Scott: Appreciate the clarification. Jorge On Mar 22, 2011, at 11:43 AM, Scott C. LaBarre wrote: > Greetings, for a variety of reasons, I usually try to stay silent on most of the interesting issues discussed on this list. Mostly, it is an issue of time. I appreciate very much the spirited debate and exploration of ideas among the student group. As many of you may know, I served as President of NABS in the early 1990's and therefore have a very fond place in my heart for student matters. > > With respect to the issue at hand, I guess you might say that I am a part of the "they" that everyone keeps tossing around. My good friend Dave Andrews is right to say that there has been a great deal of far flung speculation and off target surmising regarding the motivation of the NFB in this Google matter. > > We affect our advocacy initiatives through a variety of means, some of which are legal complaints filed both in court and with administrative agencies. Any direct legal action is first carefully considered and then executed just as carefully. All of our legal actions are anchored in one way or the other in Federation policy as adopted by the National Convention and through the resolution process. Ultimately, Dr. Maurer, our President, makes the call on a day-to-day basis about the legal matters we pursue. I have worked with Dr. Maurer on these matters in one way or the other ever since I graduated law school in 1993. I assure you that he is very judicious and mindful of the Federation resources we expend on legal advocacy. > > With specific respect to Google, we have called upon them to create accessible applications for a long time. We continue to have meetings with Google and recently we have hopefully found the right people within the corporate labyrinth to be engaging. I suspect you will be hearing from Dr. Maurer soon about these recent initiatives. > > It is essentially true that we cannot direct legal complaints directly at Google because of the current structure of the law. That is why we have structured these complaints against educational entities who use Google apps. We have to make it clear to entities who use products like those of Google that we will no longer tolerate inaccessibility when accessibility can readily be achieved either by fixing the underlying problem with the particular provider or using some other provider. > > Additionally, the filing of DOJ complaints is a very useful method and allows for more flexibility, in many ways, than simply filing a lawsuit in a traditional court of law. Over the years, we have achieved many comprehensive and creative settlements with DOJ involved. > > This time in history is critical. We will either stake out our rightful place in the information age or that age will race right past us. There are many ways to achieve our objective, one of them is the pursuit of well targeted legal complaints. Other ways include legislative approaches such as our introduction of the Technology Bill of Rights into the Congress. Once we get this legislation passed, a whole variety of technology manufacturers including software companies will have to consider nonvisual access on the front end of their designs. Also, we continue to educate technology providers of the importance of nonvisual access through a variety of means. > > The rapid growth of technology presents us with great opportunity. However, if we do not insist upon nonvisual accessibility now, a great deal of the future infrastructure will be built in such a way that it will become much more expensive to fix the system after it is already built. When we have meaningful nonvisual access, technology can open the same doors to us that are available to the sighted. If we don't have such nonvisual access, the barriers we face can become tremendous. Information technology has become such an integral part of every day life that our independence is directly tied to the ability to access this technology. Failure to act at this crucial time in history will set us farther out of the mainstream than we have been before. > > That is why we, the NFB, are so active in these technology based cases. We pursue with equal vigor legislative and educational solutions as well > . > Respectfully yours, I am, Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. > > LaBarre Law Offices P.C. > 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 > Denver, Colorado 80222 > 303 504-5979 (voice) > 303 757-3640 (fax) > slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) > www.labarrelaw.com (website) > > CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic > Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. > ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Andrews" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2011 4:02 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint > > >> Frankly, you and others are getting ridiculous in your speculation, attribution of motives etc. We don't sue Google directly, because there are no grounds. There is no law that says they have to develop accessible applications. There are laws that govern what others, like universities do, they may not be able to use inaccessible apps, but that doesn't mean that somebody couldn't sell them. >> >> Also, these things do not happen in a vacuum, or with out much consideration. For someone to suggest that the NFB has not tried to contact, and work with Google is naive at best. Also, lawsuits are expensive, time consuming, and disastrous if we loose. So, these things aren't lightly done, or just done to get publicity. >> >> Come on guys ..... think. We are not a bunch of idiots! >> >> David Andrews >> >> At 05:31 PM 3/16/2011, you wrote: >>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not >>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I >>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the >>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably, >>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some >>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like >>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of. >>> Best, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>> > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback >>> > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things >>> > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached >>> > google and offer to help with that process? >>> > >>> > >>> > ----- Original Message ----- >>> > From: "Jorge Paez" >>> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> > >>> > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM >>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps >>> > complaint >>> > >>> > >>> > I don't know, >>> > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on >>> > this very list about >>> > precisely how accessible Google Apps are. >>> > >>> > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to >>> > get attention. >>> > >>> > And get attention for what exactly? >>> > >>> > Jorge >>> > >>> > >>> > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: >>> > >>> >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of >>> >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and >>> >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an >>> >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good >>> >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other >>> >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac, >>> >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my >>> >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and >>> >> add events etc. >>> >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated >>> >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be >>> >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind >>> >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses >>> >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use >>> >> it...!! >>> >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Precisely my thoughts. >>> >>> >>> >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific? >>> >>> >>> >>> Or Google? >>> >>> >>> >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix >>> >>> that problem. >>> >>> >>> >>> Just my thoughts. >>> >>> >>> >>> Jorge >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Hello, >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have >>> >>>> innovated and >>> >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW >>> >>>> works, but >>> >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies >>> >>>> doing >>> >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB >>> >>>> getting >>> >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader >>> >>>> companies are >>> >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused >>> >>>> to work on >>> >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ... >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Thanks. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez wrote: >>> >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National >>> >>>>> filed regarding >>> >>>>> universities using Google Apps. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but >>> >>>>>> the rest isn't. >>> >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of >>> >>>>> yet), >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this. >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that >>> >>>>> everything be >>> >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or >>> >>>>> are we complaining >>> >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could >>> >>>>> potentially pose >>> >>>>> problems? >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Thanks, >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> Jorge >>> >>>>> >>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>> >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> >>>>> info for >>> >>>>> nabs-l: >>> >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nimerjaber1%40gmail.com >>> >>>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>> >>>> -- >>> >>>> Nimer M. Jaber >>> >>>> >>> >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it >>> >>>> was sent. >>> >>>> If you believe that you are not the intended recipient, >>> >>>> please notify >>> >>>> me via reply email and destroy all copies of this email. >>> >>>> Action taken >>> >>>> as a result of this email by anyone other than the intended >>> >>>> recipient >>> >>>> may result in civil or criminal action. I have checked all >>> >>>> files on my >>> >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held >>> >>>> responsible >>> >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any >>> >>>> instructions >>> >>>> or attachments provided by me. Security of your machine is up >>> >>>> to you. >>> >>>> Thanks, and if you don't feel that you are able to comply >>> >>>> with these >>> >>>> instructions, please notify me via reply email and destroy >>> >>>> all copies >>> >>>> of this email from your computer. >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Registered Linux User 529141. >>> >>>> http://counter.li.org/ >>> >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator >>> >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating >>> >>>> system, >>> >>>> please click here: >>> >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org >>> >>>> >>> >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for >>> >>>> windows XP >>> >>>> and above, please click here: >>> >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here: >>> >>>> http://nimertech.blogspot.com >>> >>>> >>> >>>> Phone: (720) (251-4530) >>> >>>> Please reply to this email to contact me. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/slabarre%40labarrelaw.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 21:32:49 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 17:32:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <20110322204034.GA17465@football.tbsaunde.org> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <20110321061543.GA18687@football.tbsaunde.org> <5D887E383FD94C03863A724DAAB8A4C3@OwnerPC> <20110322204034.GA17465@football.tbsaunde.org> Message-ID: <0A5EB59F-545F-487F-8F55-082042644311@gmail.com> the list mailman takes out attachments. Jorge On Mar 22, 2011, at 4:40 PM, Trevor Saunders wrote: > On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 10:04:09AM -0400, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> This message was blank, Trevor. > > no, it wasn't look at the attachments, your email client doesn't seem to > support RFC 3156. > > Trev > >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Trevor Saunders >> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 2:15 AM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trev.saunders%40gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From jsorozco at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 23:40:49 2011 From: jsorozco at gmail.com (Joe Orozco) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:40:49 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Action Plan, the Final Chapter Message-ID: <37B35D4160934430805CA407742A144F@Rufus> Dear all, I can't believe I've been posting my nonsense to the list for ten years now and perhaps even more surprised that David Andrews hasn't booted me off yet. Anyway, I have just a couple more reflections and pieces of advice before calling it good. In terms of organizational development, I would opine that while the NFB is great at helping people recognize or regain their confidence, confidence is something you always possessed. Yes, it is preferable that your confidence be drawn from an organization with a strong view of independence like the NFB, but the problem with helping people find something they always possessed is that as soon as that characteristic has been cultivated, the NFB is no longer as crucial to that person's development or future success. This is, in part, why so many students graduate and are never seen or heard from again. It is worth your time as the future leader of the movement to evaluate your membership in the context of a changing environment and not merely as a large number of people on whom you can rely to raise money and call legislators. Second, you need to feel free to test the philosophy. Before anything else, the NFB is about people. People thrive on personal relationships, and the only way to establish a personal relationship among students is to engage in some of the activities that students are likely to be interested in participating. No, I am not suggesting NABS put out some kegs and bring Marti Gras to a National Convention. I am suggesting that the student division set up opportunities to cultivate camaraderie of the sort that makes people eager to come back and help, not just obligated. It would be nice for the student division to reserve a room at some restaurant away from the convention hotel in Orlando for a casual happy hour reception. It would be neat for the division to find a group rate to Disney World and use the opportunity to show our blindness philosophy in practice while having a little fun. Perhaps there is something behind establishing an alumni group for those members now too old to really be engaged with NABS? The idea here is to shift NABS from a slow and steady esoteric body to one that embraces the nature of human interaction and highlights the portion of the NFB philosophy that says blindness can be reduced to the level of a nuisance. There's a cynical part of me that believes that if blindness is indeed a nuisance, we should not be spending so much time talking about it and ought to be spending more time living in spite of it. Like most things, there is a balance. There is a time for work, and the division needs to determine what it is that it wants to make its main objective. If the purpose is to retain members long after their graduation, there needs to be more interaction and communication and general exposure with chapters and affiliates to groom strong leadership. Do not assume students will independently seek them out on their own. The next generation of affiliate presidents and boards should be receiving ample preparation in the student division while the demands of life are still minimal compared to the responsibilities of real adulthood. Work and personal schedules only get busier, not lighter. If the purpose is educational equality, the division ought to be inserting itself into more dialogues with mainstream educational bodies to ensure the division is creating new standards, not just responding to individual incidents. NABS ought to become a household name in DSS offices, rehabilitation agencies and other relevant entities. Organizations like AER are only perceived as not getting it because we do not do enough to teach them better. If the purpose is employment preparation, the division ought to be brainstorming ways to help connect students with the tools they need to excel in that aspect of their development. NABS ought to be establishing relationships with major corporations to explore possible co-op or internship opportunities. I was excited to see the division revise the NABSLink website, but I was a little sad to see a lot of the education and career resources Peter and I had put together removed from the current version, or maybe I'm just an idiot and couldn't find them. That's entirely possible. My critique is of the system and the mind frame, rather than of any board or even any individual. I genuinely believe people run for the board because they want to make a difference, but when life catches up on the other side of the election, it's easier to go with what is than to venture out and explore what could be. I just want you to understand that there is nothing wrong with legacies. A person who is arrogant enough to say they want to be your board representative should be just crazy enough to push the envelope and leave the division in a more improved state than his or her predecessor, not because arrogance has to be a negative quality or because the notion of improvement means that the status quo is inadequate or because the current leader is trying to show they are better, but rather, because this is how you grow and strengthen and say to the world, "this is where we are, and more importantly, this is where we're going." The NFB could not have made it as far as it has if its leadership hadn't decided over time to shake things up, and as daunting as it may feel, you are the future of the NFB. What good is it to claim you are the leading organization in a certain field if you do not show evidence of that claim? Here are the only other two suggestions I will make on the point of NABS as a general body: 1. Campaign. I don't know why it has been generally frowned upon to campaign for positions on the student board. Are people that insecure? People should know what it is you want to achieve on the board that you could not just as easily achieve as a member. If the poster child of the moment has some good ideas, they ought to feel confident enough to defend them. No one should feel entitled to any position anywhere. Competition is healthy. 2. Elections. I also don't know where this nonsense of 30 seconds per election speech came along. If a person has the courage to stand up there and talk about why you should vote for them, by golly give the man or woman enough time to form their thoughts. This isn't to say candidates should ramble eternally, but the most frustrating aspect of the last controversial election was hearing the candidates being cut off before they could adequately express themselves. If you're still with me, I want to give you three other pieces of advice that have nothing to do with the NFB or NABS: First, stay on top of current events. You will be more informed and more articulate about the world around you if you actually know what is going on around you. Everything has a way of relating to everything else, and you will never be overwhelmed or underestimated if you take a moment to learn the why and the how of the activities across the street and across the globe. Second, think long-term, invest. Nothing is ever certain, and even with the limited income so many college students live off of, it is possible to begin making wise decisions about your money from an early age. Everyone should consider experimenting with the stock market at least once in their lives, and if you stay on top of current events, you will be more confident about the ventures into which you entrust your capital. Education will help you get ahead. Financial education will keep you there. Finally, make technology your slave, not your master. Understand that you will always be behind the next greatest innovative tool or the next upgrade or the next firmware, unless it is free or unless you are throwing money at everything that comes out, and if you are doing the last, you are not following my second piece of advice anyway. Technology is good so long as it does not make you ignorant of the basics skills that are faithful when technology fails. Learn Braille, even if you can see enough to walk without a white cane, because it is ultimately better to learn it and one day use it than to one day need it and not have it. And, learn how to maximize what you have. Experiment with every feature on each menu in your software at least once so that you know exactly what the product does before the Freedom Scientifics of the world tell you that you absolutely need the next edition. Okay, I don't know if this post is as good as the original 20-page version, but I think it mostly covered what I was thinking... I want to thank you for entertaining all my rambling posts and ideas. I first joined the student list when I was a freshman in college. It's never failed to be a fantastic resource of information and an introduction to great friends, two of whom this list has regrettably seen pass away. Though I plan to take an extended break from the NFB, I'm always an e-mail away for anyone who wants to keep in touch. Take it easy, and here's to the future! Yours in service, Joe Orozco "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing From cmcerteza at aol.com Wed Mar 23 01:18:33 2011 From: cmcerteza at aol.com (Casandra Certeza) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 21:18:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [nabs-l] Roomate for Convention In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CDB70F5CD12304-2E8-20DD2@webmail-d127.sysops.aol.com> Hello everyone, my name is Casandra. Is there anyone, who is still looking for a room mate? I have enough room for three more people. If you're interested, contact me off list. I'm staying between July 3 through July 8. From nabs.president at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 02:43:16 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 20:43:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: Youth Writing Contest In-Reply-To: <683FDF3443D54C4ABA73F469D0902A67@AllisonHilliPC> References: <683FDF3443D54C4ABA73F469D0902A67@AllisonHilliPC> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "Allison Hilliker (NFB of Arizona)" Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2011 23:02:04 -0700 Subject: Youth Writing Contest To: Arielle Silverman Hi Arielle, Could you please send the below to all your K-12 student, teacher, and parent contacts? I'd really appreciate it. The deadline for entries is quickly approaching. Thanks, Allison ===== Last chance to enter the 2011 Youth Writing Contest! The annual youth writing contest sponsored by the Writers' Division of the NFB, opened January 1st and will close April 1st. Do some writing, win prizes, get published! The youth contests are to promote Braille literacy and all poetry and fiction entries are required to be submitted in Braille. The age groups are divided into three categories: first through sixth grades, seventh and eighth grades, and ninth through twelfth grades. Prizes for contest winners range up to $25! All contest winners will be announced at the Writers' Division business meeting during the NFB national convention to be held in Orlando, Florida, the first week of July, 2011. In addition, shortly after convention, a list of winners will appear on the Writers' Division Website, www.nfb-writers-division.org. First, second, and third place winners in each category may be published in the Writers' Division magazine, "Slate & Style." For additional contest details and submission guidelines, go to the Writers' Division Website, www.nfb-writers-division.org. Robert Leslie Newman President NFB Writers' Division Email- newmanrl at cox.net Division Website Http://www.nfb-writers-division.org -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From kramc11 at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 02:47:31 2011 From: kramc11 at gmail.com (Mark J. Cadigan) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:47:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <361C004848C64AA591072B4686E6FD4F@VaioLaptop> Just to chime in on this issue, I also struggle with not gaining weight. I am not fat, but if I don't watch what I eat and step on the scale often, I do gain weight. So, tricks I find work to keep weight off. Drinking lots of water, I don't know why, but if I drink a full 64 ounces of water a day I keep weight off better. No processed foods. I love cheeseburgers and potato chips and my stake and cheese subs just as much as everyone else, but these are lethal. Avoid them at all cost. lol I often eat a salad with cold chicken for lunch. I try to use celery as a snack. Avoid peas, corn and carets; although they are vegetables, they have a lot of carbohydrates in them. And, absolutely no tonic. If I drink tonic even diet tonic I gain lots of weight. This is just what works with me, and I am sharing it in hopes it will work for you. Mark ----- Original Message ----- From: "humberto" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:34 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Hi, This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I am getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what are the most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it normal for a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me it works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. She tells me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do those exercises in PE anyways. any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, this can result in a discussion that can lead to great other discussions about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >----- Original Message ----- >From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >Hi all, >Iâ?Tve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained weight upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. The freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain some weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it until I put on different clothes. >BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount university, MU. But of course Iâ?Tm still overweight and my mom isnâ?Tt satisfied. >I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue is in my middle, the abdominal area. >I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is >a personâ?Ts weight over height squared. >But its not far off. >I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it does affect your image and health. >Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with more health risks. I took a health class in college. >I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early May and to have a better weight overall. >Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some complex carbs. >For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat milk. >I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do not eat fried food or drink sodas. >I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >So I say itâ?Ts a struggle because I have eaten healthily for several years and do not see many results. I live with parents and my mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not the refined kind! >I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot fit in a size 14 dress! >What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on less calories? >I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and crave something. Its probably cause Iâ?Tm stressed too! >Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. >I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I could not follow the fast pace! >I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most accessible. >I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the back basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is too stagnant or something being in the basement! >I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. >I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! >Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what worked for you. >My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesnâ?Tt admit weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the mid section is the hardest to lose. >Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose it. >I just had to vent. Iâ?Tm tired of being accused I drink too many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when Iâ?Tm out at a restaurant. >As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. Sometimes I donâ?Tt even have it at lunch and stick with plain tap water. >Iâ?Tm tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at night. >I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. But fruit never fills me up. >Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat peanuter/creakers. I donâ?Tt know. >But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I am. >Let me know your ideas. >Ashley >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com From nabs.president at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 04:01:50 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 22:01:50 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice In-Reply-To: <07B689C99CB14A64AE798CA141572458@LAURASCOMPUTER> References: <07B689C99CB14A64AE798CA141572458@LAURASCOMPUTER> Message-ID: Hi Christopher, First of all, welcome to the NABS list. My name is Arielle Silverman and I am the current president of the National Association of Blind Students. I'm totally blind and a Ph.D. student in social psychology at the University of Colorado. I first joined this list when I was in high school and have always found it to be tremendously helpful and supportive. Regarding flying: I would say, first of all, don't worry about it too much. There are blind people who fly by themselves all the time. Some of us fly internationally by ourselves, and we often move smoothly through layovers, baggage claim, security, and the other surprises airlines sometimes like to throw at us. Some blind people use assistance, some of us don't, and some of us use assistance only if we're in a hurry or have a lot of baggage. In other words, there's no one way to navigate the airport as a blind person. I flew by myself to NFB convention for the first time when I was 18, too. I was very nervous, and used assistance for the whole trip. Now I fly very often-on average, about once every 1-2 months-and I don't think much of it. By all means, if you want to, go ahead and ask for an escort when you check in for your flight, and walk with the escort through security to your gate. There's no need to call ahead-just ask when you check in, if they don't offer first. But, since you mentioned in your email that you are good at improvising and want to make this more of a challenge, then perhaps you might think about doing part of your trip without assistance, by walking around the airport on your own. Many of us are afraid to walk around in airports by ourselves, but really I have found that an airport is one of the easiest, safest places to explore. There are lots of people around to ask for information, and everything is indoors, so there's only so far you will go if you get turned around. Instead of walking with an escort, you might try just asking the person who checks you in, "Which direction is security?" Then walk in the direction they tell you, and double-check with someone else walking by to see if you are going the right way. Once you get past security, there will be central food court areas, which you will notice because of their distinctive sounds and smells. In most airports the gates are on carpet, and the gate area will sound more enclosed and will probably have some kind of TV or radio playing. Gates tend to go in numerical order, so you can ask someone sitting at one of the gates, "What gate number is this?" and then ask them, "Which direction is it to gate [gate number]?" Then you can count gates, or walk down a few gates and then ask again what gate number you are at. Of course, navigating the airport without assistance might take a little longer, especially at first. But if you have the extra time, it's a good way to learn more about the airport layout, and to boost your confidence. I also like it because I don't have to stand around waiting for an assistant, and because I'm free to go wherever I feel like going without feeling like someone is watching or babysitting me. If you want to try it for the first time, you might think about having the assistant show you through security, but then finding your gate on your own, or going with the assistant in Indianapolis but then going it on your own from gate to gate in Chicago. (Actually, the first airport I traveled in without assistance was the Chicago-Midway airport on my way to an NFB Washington Seminar. I had a long layover, decided to kill some time exploring the airport, and that's when I realized how easy it really can be). I'm so glad that you'll be going to the BLIND, Inc. prep program this summer. During this program all of you will fly to Orlando together, and will learn lots about airport travel. Good luck and definitely feel free to ask any other questions you may have. Arielle On 3/22/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > Prescription medications that are in pill form can be in your bag > as any other item would be (carry-on or checked). If it's a > liquid medication, then it would need to be in a ziplock bag and > checked separately at the security checkpoing. > > If you know the airline you're flying with, you can go to their > website and find very comprehensive information on baggage > requirements, limitations and allowances, information for people > traveling with service animals, people traveling with other > mobility aids, and information about security measures affecting > what you and cannot bring on the plane with you. I've flown > several times by myself, and it's a fairly painless process. > > Good luck, > Laura > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 9:29 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for > advice > > > You mentioned medicine in carry on bags. > You might want to check TSA policy. I think medicine has to be > stored in a > clear bag, like a ziplock bag, with labels. > That is a pain because you cannot carry it in a daily medicine > container > then. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: autTeal Bloodwortho > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:19 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for > advice > > Hello Christopher > > I myself have only flown once and was treated with dignity by the > airport > attendants. You do need to be specific, as in other impairment > you may or > may not have. Personally I was never asked if I wanted to sit in > a wheel > chair but I also arrived at the airport departure gate with > sighted guide > and my foldable white cane erect. I was checked like any other > passenger > (cell phones, keys, etc need to be removed from your pockets). I > myself was > allowed to board the plane first but I was flying on a smaller > plane that > wasn't very crowded, > > I believe you are allowed 2 carry on baggage . This is where I > put my > electronic devices (labtop, stream, etc) and perscription > medication and > such. I don't remember the weight for these but think duffle > bag/labtop bag > or for a woman a purse. in your check in luggage you need to put > any > shampoos, soaps, shaving utensils, colognes, etc. I don't know > how long ago > it was that you last flew but security is alittle ridiculous. > Even if you > come to the airport with food or drink you are not allowed on the > plane with > it. > > hope i helped in some way. larger, busier airports are going to > be slower in > finding a flight attendant to assist you and you really have to > be patient. > I know in detroit from my arrival point to my departure point I > had to go > through 4 elevators and a moving sidewalk. You also may wanna > keep your > ittenary handy since your attendants may need the gate > information. > > Good Luck > -Teal > ----- > From: "christopher meyer" > To: > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 5:32 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice > > >> Hey folks, my name's Christopher Meyer. I've been following the >> message threads on the NABS list for, what, five or six months? >> This >> is my first time getting my name out to you all. I would rather >> have >> done so with just a "nice to meet you" post about myself, but a >> pressing matter takes priority for me. >> >> I'm eighteen, blind, learning self-confidence, embracing the >> use of my >> cane, getting ready for college in the fall, and the prep >> program at >> Blind, Inc. in Miniapolis over the summer. >> >> That's all background information to explain that I'm becoming >> more >> acceptant of what I can see--or really what I can't see. >> >> In two weeks, I'll be facing a good test of this "new-found >> confidence" as I've seen some of the NFB centers say they >> provide. I'm >> going to be flying by myself for the first time through >> Indianapolis >> International, Chicago Midway, and Newark Airport. I found the >> TSA's >> travel information and tips for "persons with disabilities and >> medical >> issues," which were helpful and reassuring for the security >> checkpoint >> process. I've contacted my airline support, told them I'll be >> flying >> in two weeks and will need an assistant. And I know that I can >> take my >> cane along without it counting as a cary-on piece or personal >> item. >> >> Other than that, what do I need to know and prepare for? I've >> flown >> before a few years back and just vaguely remember the general >> airport >> layout. I do mean vaguely, so I'm anxious not knowing what to >> expect >> on that front. Any tips or information worth sharing? >> >> I'll be clear: I'm naturally pretty good at improvising. What I >> don't >> know right now I'll figure out soon enough--maybe while I'm en >> route >> to my first gate, maybe in Midway for my transfer and layover, >> maybe >> in Newark at baggage pickup. Who knows. But I'm also the kind >> of >> person who wants to be prepared for a challenge and hit it >> head-on, >> but prepared nonetheless. >> Eager to hear back all the same. >> >> >> Christopher >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From ignasicambra at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 04:33:20 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 00:33:20 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice In-Reply-To: References: <07B689C99CB14A64AE798CA141572458@LAURASCOMPUTER> Message-ID: Hello, I completely agree with Arielle. I fly all the time (several times per week depending on the month...)because of what I do. I travel between The US and Europe very often and have to walk around different airports. It might be a little scary at the beginning, but it's really not that bad. I tend to go around the airport by myself. I go through Atlanta so much that by now I pretty much know the place. I even figured out an area for my dog to go to the restroom. I only request assistance if I have very little time to go from one plane to the next one, and if they don't show up on time I just leave because I would rather find it by myself in a hurry than miss it. Also, many times passengers themselves are much more helpful than airport employees. There's one important thing though... Some airports don't announce flight departures through speakers. The worst example that I can thing of right now if Madrid. The only way to figure out gate changes, cancellations etc is through screens all over the terminal. In cases like this, my iPhone is my friend. I generally fly Delta, and I have the Delta application which will notify me of any changes instantly. Really, this application has been very helpful in many occasions. It also allows you to reschedule your trip if a flight gets cancelled etc. Other airlines probably have their own application too. If you are a frequent flyer you can be a member of frequent flyer programs ran by airlines. After you've earned enough miles you get access to more private areas. I find that people in there are always helpful, and if I'm resting in there or doing something else they will always let me know when the flight is ready for departure etc. Thie is my experience with airports... Again, it's generally not bad at all. And if sometimes things don't go well, remember that that happens to sighted people very often too. Good luck! IC On Mar 23, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hi Christopher, > > First of all, welcome to the NABS list. My name is Arielle Silverman > and I am the current president of the National Association of Blind > Students. I'm totally blind and a Ph.D. student in social psychology > at the University of Colorado. I first joined this list when I was in > high school and have always found it to be tremendously helpful and > supportive. > > Regarding flying: I would say, first of all, don't worry about it too > much. There are blind people who fly by themselves all the time. Some > of us fly internationally by ourselves, and we often move smoothly > through layovers, baggage claim, security, and the other surprises > airlines sometimes like to throw at us. Some blind people use > assistance, some of us don't, and some of us use assistance only if > we're in a hurry or have a lot of baggage. In other words, there's no > one way to navigate the airport as a blind person. I flew by myself to > NFB convention for the first time when I was 18, too. I was very > nervous, and used assistance for the whole trip. Now I fly very > often-on average, about once every 1-2 months-and I don't think much > of it. > > By all means, if you want to, go ahead and ask for an escort when you > check in for your flight, and walk with the escort through security to > your gate. There's no need to call ahead-just ask when you check in, > if they don't offer first. But, since you mentioned in your email that > you are good at improvising and want to make this more of a challenge, > then perhaps you might think about doing part of your trip without > assistance, by walking around the airport on your own. > > Many of us are afraid to walk around in airports by ourselves, but > really I have found that an airport is one of the easiest, safest > places to explore. There are lots of people around to ask for > information, and everything is indoors, so there's only so far you > will go if you get turned around. Instead of walking with an escort, > you might try just asking the person who checks you in, "Which > direction is security?" Then walk in the direction they tell you, and > double-check with someone else walking by to see if you are going the > right way. > > Once you get past security, there will be central food court areas, > which you will notice because of their distinctive sounds and smells. > In most airports the gates are on carpet, and the gate area will sound > more enclosed and will probably have some kind of TV or radio playing. > Gates tend to go in numerical order, so you can ask someone sitting at > one of the gates, "What gate number is this?" and then ask them, > "Which direction is it to gate [gate number]?" Then you can count > gates, or walk down a few gates and then ask again what gate number > you are at. > > Of course, navigating the airport without assistance might take a > little longer, especially at first. But if you have the extra time, > it's a good way to learn more about the airport layout, and to boost > your confidence. I also like it because I don't have to stand around > waiting for an assistant, and because I'm free to go wherever I feel > like going without feeling like someone is watching or babysitting me. > If you want to try it for the first time, you might think about having > the assistant show you through security, but then finding your gate on > your own, or going with the assistant in Indianapolis but then going > it on your own from gate to gate in Chicago. (Actually, the first > airport I traveled in without assistance was the Chicago-Midway > airport on my way to an NFB Washington Seminar. I had a long layover, > decided to kill some time exploring the airport, and that's when I > realized how easy it really can be). > > I'm so glad that you'll be going to the BLIND, Inc. prep program this > summer. During this program all of you will fly to Orlando together, > and will learn lots about airport travel. > > Good luck and definitely feel free to ask any other questions you may have. > > Arielle > > On 3/22/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >> Prescription medications that are in pill form can be in your bag >> as any other item would be (carry-on or checked). If it's a >> liquid medication, then it would need to be in a ziplock bag and >> checked separately at the security checkpoing. >> >> If you know the airline you're flying with, you can go to their >> website and find very comprehensive information on baggage >> requirements, limitations and allowances, information for people >> traveling with service animals, people traveling with other >> mobility aids, and information about security measures affecting >> what you and cannot bring on the plane with you. I've flown >> several times by myself, and it's a fairly painless process. >> >> Good luck, >> Laura >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 9:29 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for >> advice >> >> >> You mentioned medicine in carry on bags. >> You might want to check TSA policy. I think medicine has to be >> stored in a >> clear bag, like a ziplock bag, with labels. >> That is a pain because you cannot carry it in a daily medicine >> container >> then. >> Ashley >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: autTeal Bloodwortho >> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:19 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for >> advice >> >> Hello Christopher >> >> I myself have only flown once and was treated with dignity by the >> airport >> attendants. You do need to be specific, as in other impairment >> you may or >> may not have. Personally I was never asked if I wanted to sit in >> a wheel >> chair but I also arrived at the airport departure gate with >> sighted guide >> and my foldable white cane erect. I was checked like any other >> passenger >> (cell phones, keys, etc need to be removed from your pockets). I >> myself was >> allowed to board the plane first but I was flying on a smaller >> plane that >> wasn't very crowded, >> >> I believe you are allowed 2 carry on baggage . This is where I >> put my >> electronic devices (labtop, stream, etc) and perscription >> medication and >> such. I don't remember the weight for these but think duffle >> bag/labtop bag >> or for a woman a purse. in your check in luggage you need to put >> any >> shampoos, soaps, shaving utensils, colognes, etc. I don't know >> how long ago >> it was that you last flew but security is alittle ridiculous. >> Even if you >> come to the airport with food or drink you are not allowed on the >> plane with >> it. >> >> hope i helped in some way. larger, busier airports are going to >> be slower in >> finding a flight attendant to assist you and you really have to >> be patient. >> I know in detroit from my arrival point to my departure point I >> had to go >> through 4 elevators and a moving sidewalk. You also may wanna >> keep your >> ittenary handy since your attendants may need the gate >> information. >> >> Good Luck >> -Teal >> ----- >> From: "christopher meyer" >> To: >> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 5:32 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice >> >> >>> Hey folks, my name's Christopher Meyer. I've been following the >>> message threads on the NABS list for, what, five or six months? >>> This >>> is my first time getting my name out to you all. I would rather >>> have >>> done so with just a "nice to meet you" post about myself, but a >>> pressing matter takes priority for me. >>> >>> I'm eighteen, blind, learning self-confidence, embracing the >>> use of my >>> cane, getting ready for college in the fall, and the prep >>> program at >>> Blind, Inc. in Miniapolis over the summer. >>> >>> That's all background information to explain that I'm becoming >>> more >>> acceptant of what I can see--or really what I can't see. >>> >>> In two weeks, I'll be facing a good test of this "new-found >>> confidence" as I've seen some of the NFB centers say they >>> provide. I'm >>> going to be flying by myself for the first time through >>> Indianapolis >>> International, Chicago Midway, and Newark Airport. I found the >>> TSA's >>> travel information and tips for "persons with disabilities and >>> medical >>> issues," which were helpful and reassuring for the security >>> checkpoint >>> process. I've contacted my airline support, told them I'll be >>> flying >>> in two weeks and will need an assistant. And I know that I can >>> take my >>> cane along without it counting as a cary-on piece or personal >>> item. >>> >>> Other than that, what do I need to know and prepare for? I've >>> flown >>> before a few years back and just vaguely remember the general >>> airport >>> layout. I do mean vaguely, so I'm anxious not knowing what to >>> expect >>> on that front. Any tips or information worth sharing? >>> >>> I'll be clear: I'm naturally pretty good at improvising. What I >>> don't >>> know right now I'll figure out soon enough--maybe while I'm en >>> route >>> to my first gate, maybe in Midway for my transfer and layover, >>> maybe >>> in Newark at baggage pickup. Who knows. But I'm also the kind >>> of >>> person who wants to be prepared for a challenge and hit it >>> head-on, >>> but prepared nonetheless. >>> Eager to hear back all the same. >>> >>> >>> Christopher >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > Phone: 602-502-2255 > Email: > nabs.president at gmail.com > Website: > www.nabslink.org > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From dandrews at visi.com Wed Mar 23 09:25:08 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 04:25:08 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint In-Reply-To: <0A5EB59F-545F-487F-8F55-082042644311@gmail.com> References: <645E6470-0FEC-4583-9FAF-35DE2DB39A5C@mac.com> <20110321061543.GA18687@football.tbsaunde.org> <5D887E383FD94C03863A724DAAB8A4C3@OwnerPC> <20110322204034.GA17465@football.tbsaunde.org> <0A5EB59F-545F-487F-8F55-082042644311@gmail.com> Message-ID: No Mailman doesn't remove attachments unless it is set to do so. It does not remove attachments for this list. If you are in Digest Mode it does remove them, and places a link to the attachment in the message. David Andrews, List Owner At 04:32 PM 3/22/2011, you wrote: >the list mailman takes out attachments. > >Jorge From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Mar 23 17:56:55 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 12:56:55 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Pear-shaped and apple-shaped are not common body types for men and women. They are specific body types on a list of many. Women and men have a lot of different body shapes, and we don't really have a particular type most fall into. Between myself, my mom and two sisters, we all have different body types. The shapes are just used to describe a body structure. A pear shape would be curvy with a smaller top and larger bottom-- like a pear. I am not sure, Ashley, why your mother is so determined you fit in one particular dress size. Like I said before, shape and size do not always denote being overweight or unhealthy. And just because you don't lose pounds does not mean you are not trying. Also, as I said before, some lose in inches instead of pounds. Your mom, I say this respectively, needs to relax and buy the dress that fits you. Why purchase a dress that may not fit? I was a fitness instructor, and you have to understand that you may not be able to "fit" into a particular body type. None of us are the same, and our bodies have limitations. It sounds like you are trying. If you can, buy your own dress so your mother has no say. And added stress will not help you lose weight-- in fact, it may impede the process or even cause weight gain. You need to make your own decisions. Bridgit Message: 13 Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:49:54 -0400 From: Mary Fernandez To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Weight issues Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Dear Ashley, I'm not quite sure what you mean by pear shape and apple shape. Typically, women are either top heavy, btoom heavy, which is what typically we mean by pear shape, or hour glass, which is pretty balanced on top and bottom. As far as dress size, especially for women, size is the most unreliable thing to measure anyone by. There is not standardization and while a brand like INC a size 8 would be a size six in Michael Kors. I would try to talk to your mom, and say that while you understand where she is coming from, we are all built differently, that you wan to be healthier, however, it truly isn't fair or reasonable to measure you and treat you differently because of your dress size. You know? I think it is essential that we all have a good self-image, we can't measure ourselves by annorexic models, but we should strive to feel good about ourselves and the way we look. But we should also try to be as healthy as possible since over weight has been proven over and over to affect much of our health. Sincerely, Mary F From dstrick1 at roadrunner.com Wed Mar 23 19:16:17 2011 From: dstrick1 at roadrunner.com (dstrick1 at roadrunner.com) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 19:16:17 +0000 Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues In-Reply-To: <361C004848C64AA591072B4686E6FD4F@VaioLaptop> Message-ID: <20110323191617.HOPHZ.57013.root@cdptpa-web03-z01> ---- "Mark J. Cadigan" wrote: > Just to chime in on this issue, I also struggle with not gaining weight. I > am not fat, but if I don't watch what I eat and step on the scale often, I > do gain weight. So, tricks I find work to keep weight off. > > Drinking lots of water, I don't know why, but if I drink a full 64 ounces of > water a day I keep weight off better. > > No processed foods. I love cheeseburgers and potato chips and my stake and > cheese subs just as much as everyone else, but these are lethal. Avoid them > at all cost. lol > > I often eat a salad with cold chicken for lunch. I try to use celery as a > snack. Avoid peas, corn and carets; although they are vegetables, they have > a lot of carbohydrates in them. > > And, absolutely no tonic. If I drink tonic even diet tonic I gain lots of > weight. > > This is just what works with me, and I am sharing it in hopes it will work > for you. > > Mark > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "humberto" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:34 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > > > Hi, > > This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I > am getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what > are the most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is > it normal for a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing > where your abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, > and to me it works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not > working. She tells me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do > it because I do those exercises in PE anyways. > any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, > this can result in a discussion that can lead to great other > discussions about blindness and appearance among sighted public. > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 > >Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > > >Hi all, > > >Iâ?Tve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in > the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained > weight upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food > there. The freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but > did gain some weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly > noticed it until I put on different clothes. > >BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount > university, MU. But of course Iâ?Tm still overweight and my mom > isnâ?Tt satisfied. > > >I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue > is in my middle, the abdominal area. > >I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. > >My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is > >a personâ?Ts weight over height squared. > >But its not far off. > >I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it > does affect your image and health. > >Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with > more health risks. I took a health class in college. > > >I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early > May and to have a better weight overall. > > >Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some > complex carbs. > >For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat > milk. > >I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do > not eat fried food or drink sodas. > >I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse > food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. > >So I say itâ?Ts a struggle because I have eaten healthily for > several years and do not see many results. I live with parents > and my mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. > If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not > the refined kind! > > > >I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot > fit in a size 14 dress! > > >What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on > less calories? > >I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and > crave something. Its probably cause Iâ?Tm stressed too! > > > >Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in > as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. > >I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead > classes. I have not found them too accomodating. > >I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I > could not follow the fast pace! > >I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most > accessible. > > >I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to > workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the > back basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is > too stagnant or something being in the basement! > >I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. > > > >I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! > > >Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what > worked for you. > >My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesnâ?Tt admit > weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the > mid section is the hardest to lose. > >Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place > you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! > >Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose > it. > >I just had to vent. Iâ?Tm tired of being accused I drink too > many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when Iâ?Tm > out at a restaurant. > >As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. > Sometimes I donâ?Tt even have it at lunch and stick with plain > tap water. > >Iâ?Tm tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I > have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at > night. > >I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. > But fruit never fills me up. > >Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat > peanuter/creakers. I donâ?Tt know. > >But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I > am. > > > >Let me know your ideas. > >Ashley > >_______________________________________________ > >nabs-l mailing list > >nabs-l at nfbnet.org > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dstrick1%40roadrunner.com While it is true that things like corn have a lot of carbohydrates, it is also true that they are ejested as they are ingested. Unless you are a different species like a cow or chicken etc. you cannot digest them as Homo Sapien Sapiens lack the necessary enzyme. From trillian551 at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 20:15:22 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:15:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs-l Digest, Vol 53, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Amen to that. Mary On 3/23/11, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Pear-shaped and apple-shaped are not common body types for men and > women. They are specific body types on a list of many. > > Women and men have a lot of different body shapes, and we don't really > have a particular type most fall into. Between myself, my mom and two > sisters, we all have different body types. > > The shapes are just used to describe a body structure. A pear shape > would be curvy with a smaller top and larger bottom-- like a pear. > > I am not sure, Ashley, why your mother is so determined you fit in one > particular dress size. Like I said before, shape and size do not always > denote being overweight or unhealthy. And just because you don't lose > pounds does not mean you are not trying. > > Also, as I said before, some lose in inches instead of pounds. > > Your mom, I say this respectively, needs to relax and buy the dress that > fits you. Why purchase a dress that may not fit? > > I was a fitness instructor, and you have to understand that you may not > be able to "fit" into a particular body type. None of us are the same, > and our bodies have limitations. It sounds like you are trying. If you > can, buy your own dress so your mother has no say. > > And added stress will not help you lose weight-- in fact, it may impede > the process or even cause weight gain. You need to make your own > decisions. > > Bridgit > > Message: 13 > Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:49:54 -0400 > From: Mary Fernandez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Weight issues > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Dear Ashley, > I'm not quite sure what you mean by pear shape and apple shape. > Typically, women are either top heavy, btoom heavy, which is what > typically we mean by pear shape, or hour glass, which is pretty > balanced on top and bottom. > As far as dress size, especially for women, size is the most > unreliable thing to measure anyone by. There is not standardization > and while a brand like INC a size 8 would be a size six in Michael > Kors. I would try to talk to your mom, and say that while you > understand where she is coming from, we are all built differently, > that you wan to be healthier, however, it truly isn't fair or > reasonable to measure you and treat you differently because of your > dress size. You know? > I think it is essential that we all have a good self-image, we can't > measure ourselves by annorexic models, but we should strive to feel > good about ourselves and the way we look. But we should also try to be > as healthy as possible since over weight has been proven over and over > to affect much of our health. > Sincerely, > Mary F > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 20:25:44 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:25:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice In-Reply-To: References: <07B689C99CB14A64AE798CA141572458@LAURASCOMPUTER> Message-ID: <86C249C5-588C-4269-AE31-268BB521B4F0@gmail.com> Hi IC: Is the Delta App 100% accessible? What is it called? Also, in case you're coming threw NY, I think most of the Laguardia terminals also work threw screens, so just be alert. Jorge On Mar 23, 2011, at 12:33 AM, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > Hello, > I completely agree with Arielle. I fly all the time (several times per week depending on the month...)because of what I do. I travel between The US and Europe very often and have to walk around different airports. It might be a little scary at the beginning, but it's really not that bad. I tend to go around the airport by myself. I go through Atlanta so much that by now I pretty much know the place. I even figured out an area for my dog to go to the restroom. I only request assistance if I have very little time to go from one plane to the next one, and if they don't show up on time I just leave because I would rather find it by myself in a hurry than miss it. > Also, many times passengers themselves are much more helpful than airport employees. > There's one important thing though... Some airports don't announce flight departures through speakers. The worst example that I can thing of right now if Madrid. The only way to figure out gate changes, cancellations etc is through screens all over the terminal. In cases like this, my iPhone is my friend. I generally fly Delta, and I have the Delta application which will notify me of any changes instantly. Really, this application has been very helpful in many occasions. It also allows you to reschedule your trip if a flight gets cancelled etc. Other airlines probably have their own application too. > If you are a frequent flyer you can be a member of frequent flyer programs ran by airlines. After you've earned enough miles you get access to more private areas. I find that people in there are always helpful, and if I'm resting in there or doing something else they will always let me know when the flight is ready for departure etc. > Thie is my experience with airports... Again, it's generally not bad at all. And if sometimes things don't go well, remember that that happens to sighted people very often too. > Good luck! > > IC > On Mar 23, 2011, at 12:01 AM, Arielle Silverman wrote: > >> Hi Christopher, >> >> First of all, welcome to the NABS list. My name is Arielle Silverman >> and I am the current president of the National Association of Blind >> Students. I'm totally blind and a Ph.D. student in social psychology >> at the University of Colorado. I first joined this list when I was in >> high school and have always found it to be tremendously helpful and >> supportive. >> >> Regarding flying: I would say, first of all, don't worry about it too >> much. There are blind people who fly by themselves all the time. Some >> of us fly internationally by ourselves, and we often move smoothly >> through layovers, baggage claim, security, and the other surprises >> airlines sometimes like to throw at us. Some blind people use >> assistance, some of us don't, and some of us use assistance only if >> we're in a hurry or have a lot of baggage. In other words, there's no >> one way to navigate the airport as a blind person. I flew by myself to >> NFB convention for the first time when I was 18, too. I was very >> nervous, and used assistance for the whole trip. Now I fly very >> often-on average, about once every 1-2 months-and I don't think much >> of it. >> >> By all means, if you want to, go ahead and ask for an escort when you >> check in for your flight, and walk with the escort through security to >> your gate. There's no need to call ahead-just ask when you check in, >> if they don't offer first. But, since you mentioned in your email that >> you are good at improvising and want to make this more of a challenge, >> then perhaps you might think about doing part of your trip without >> assistance, by walking around the airport on your own. >> >> Many of us are afraid to walk around in airports by ourselves, but >> really I have found that an airport is one of the easiest, safest >> places to explore. There are lots of people around to ask for >> information, and everything is indoors, so there's only so far you >> will go if you get turned around. Instead of walking with an escort, >> you might try just asking the person who checks you in, "Which >> direction is security?" Then walk in the direction they tell you, and >> double-check with someone else walking by to see if you are going the >> right way. >> >> Once you get past security, there will be central food court areas, >> which you will notice because of their distinctive sounds and smells. >> In most airports the gates are on carpet, and the gate area will sound >> more enclosed and will probably have some kind of TV or radio playing. >> Gates tend to go in numerical order, so you can ask someone sitting at >> one of the gates, "What gate number is this?" and then ask them, >> "Which direction is it to gate [gate number]?" Then you can count >> gates, or walk down a few gates and then ask again what gate number >> you are at. >> >> Of course, navigating the airport without assistance might take a >> little longer, especially at first. But if you have the extra time, >> it's a good way to learn more about the airport layout, and to boost >> your confidence. I also like it because I don't have to stand around >> waiting for an assistant, and because I'm free to go wherever I feel >> like going without feeling like someone is watching or babysitting me. >> If you want to try it for the first time, you might think about having >> the assistant show you through security, but then finding your gate on >> your own, or going with the assistant in Indianapolis but then going >> it on your own from gate to gate in Chicago. (Actually, the first >> airport I traveled in without assistance was the Chicago-Midway >> airport on my way to an NFB Washington Seminar. I had a long layover, >> decided to kill some time exploring the airport, and that's when I >> realized how easy it really can be). >> >> I'm so glad that you'll be going to the BLIND, Inc. prep program this >> summer. During this program all of you will fly to Orlando together, >> and will learn lots about airport travel. >> >> Good luck and definitely feel free to ask any other questions you may have. >> >> Arielle >> >> On 3/22/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>> Prescription medications that are in pill form can be in your bag >>> as any other item would be (carry-on or checked). If it's a >>> liquid medication, then it would need to be in a ziplock bag and >>> checked separately at the security checkpoing. >>> >>> If you know the airline you're flying with, you can go to their >>> website and find very comprehensive information on baggage >>> requirements, limitations and allowances, information for people >>> traveling with service animals, people traveling with other >>> mobility aids, and information about security measures affecting >>> what you and cannot bring on the plane with you. I've flown >>> several times by myself, and it's a fairly painless process. >>> >>> Good luck, >>> Laura >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 9:29 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for >>> advice >>> >>> >>> You mentioned medicine in carry on bags. >>> You might want to check TSA policy. I think medicine has to be >>> stored in a >>> clear bag, like a ziplock bag, with labels. >>> That is a pain because you cannot carry it in a daily medicine >>> container >>> then. >>> Ashley >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: autTeal Bloodwortho >>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 11:19 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for >>> advice >>> >>> Hello Christopher >>> >>> I myself have only flown once and was treated with dignity by the >>> airport >>> attendants. You do need to be specific, as in other impairment >>> you may or >>> may not have. Personally I was never asked if I wanted to sit in >>> a wheel >>> chair but I also arrived at the airport departure gate with >>> sighted guide >>> and my foldable white cane erect. I was checked like any other >>> passenger >>> (cell phones, keys, etc need to be removed from your pockets). I >>> myself was >>> allowed to board the plane first but I was flying on a smaller >>> plane that >>> wasn't very crowded, >>> >>> I believe you are allowed 2 carry on baggage . This is where I >>> put my >>> electronic devices (labtop, stream, etc) and perscription >>> medication and >>> such. I don't remember the weight for these but think duffle >>> bag/labtop bag >>> or for a woman a purse. in your check in luggage you need to put >>> any >>> shampoos, soaps, shaving utensils, colognes, etc. I don't know >>> how long ago >>> it was that you last flew but security is alittle ridiculous. >>> Even if you >>> come to the airport with food or drink you are not allowed on the >>> plane with >>> it. >>> >>> hope i helped in some way. larger, busier airports are going to >>> be slower in >>> finding a flight attendant to assist you and you really have to >>> be patient. >>> I know in detroit from my arrival point to my departure point I >>> had to go >>> through 4 elevators and a moving sidewalk. You also may wanna >>> keep your >>> ittenary handy since your attendants may need the gate >>> information. >>> >>> Good Luck >>> -Teal >>> ----- >>> From: "christopher meyer" >>> To: >>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 5:32 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] First-time flyer, and I'm looking for advice >>> >>> >>>> Hey folks, my name's Christopher Meyer. I've been following the >>>> message threads on the NABS list for, what, five or six months? >>>> This >>>> is my first time getting my name out to you all. I would rather >>>> have >>>> done so with just a "nice to meet you" post about myself, but a >>>> pressing matter takes priority for me. >>>> >>>> I'm eighteen, blind, learning self-confidence, embracing the >>>> use of my >>>> cane, getting ready for college in the fall, and the prep >>>> program at >>>> Blind, Inc. in Miniapolis over the summer. >>>> >>>> That's all background information to explain that I'm becoming >>>> more >>>> acceptant of what I can see--or really what I can't see. >>>> >>>> In two weeks, I'll be facing a good test of this "new-found >>>> confidence" as I've seen some of the NFB centers say they >>>> provide. I'm >>>> going to be flying by myself for the first time through >>>> Indianapolis >>>> International, Chicago Midway, and Newark Airport. I found the >>>> TSA's >>>> travel information and tips for "persons with disabilities and >>>> medical >>>> issues," which were helpful and reassuring for the security >>>> checkpoint >>>> process. I've contacted my airline support, told them I'll be >>>> flying >>>> in two weeks and will need an assistant. And I know that I can >>>> take my >>>> cane along without it counting as a cary-on piece or personal >>>> item. >>>> >>>> Other than that, what do I need to know and prepare for? I've >>>> flown >>>> before a few years back and just vaguely remember the general >>>> airport >>>> layout. I do mean vaguely, so I'm anxious not knowing what to >>>> expect >>>> on that front. Any tips or information worth sharing? >>>> >>>> I'll be clear: I'm naturally pretty good at improvising. What I >>>> don't >>>> know right now I'll figure out soon enough--maybe while I'm en >>>> route >>>> to my first gate, maybe in Midway for my transfer and layover, >>>> maybe >>>> in Newark at baggage pickup. Who knows. But I'm also the kind >>>> of >>>> person who wants to be prepared for a challenge and hit it >>>> head-on, >>>> but prepared nonetheless. >>>> Eager to hear back all the same. >>>> >>>> >>>> Christopher >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Arielle Silverman >> President, National Association of Blind Students >> Phone: 602-502-2255 >> Email: >> nabs.president at gmail.com >> Website: >> www.nabslink.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From kgilbride at dralegal.org Wed Mar 23 20:58:24 2011 From: kgilbride at dralegal.org (Karla Gilbride) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 13:58:24 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <754D9C7D0111F64FB1C87BD46B8ACD1CF45826@draexchange.dralegal.com> Thanks; I just heard her voice. -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Mary Fernandez Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Dear Ashley, Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, but for all of America. I think that you have done some good things already by modifying your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just wanted to look and feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a wonderfu program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really really simple, and you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the stuff she does is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, and it is definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole hting with a sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you get a good idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I promise it works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have specific quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than happy to help. I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So many of us are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle with looking gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: > Hi, > > This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I am > getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what are the > most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it normal for > a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your > abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me it > works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. She tells > me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do those > exercises in PE anyways. > any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, this > can result in a discussion that can lead to great other discussions > about blindness and appearance among sighted public. > >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > >Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > >>Hi all, > >>I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in > the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained weight > upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. The > freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain some > weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it until I put > on different clothes. >>BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount > university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my mom > isn’t satisfied. > >>I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue > is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is a >>person’s weight over height squared. >>But its not far off. >>I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it > does affect your image and health. >>Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with > more health risks. I took a health class in college. > >>I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early > May and to have a better weight overall. > >>Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some > complex carbs. >>For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat > milk. >>I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do > not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse > food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for > several years and do not see many results. I live with parents and my > mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. > If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not the > refined kind! > > >>I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot > fit in a size 14 dress! > >>What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on > less calories? >>I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and > crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! > > >>Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in > as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. >>I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead > classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I > could not follow the fast pace! >>I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most > accessible. > >>I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to > workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the back > basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is too > stagnant or something being in the basement! >>I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. > > >>I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! > >>Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what > worked for you. >>My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t admit > weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the mid > section is the hardest to lose. >>Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place > you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose > it. >>I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too > many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when I’m out at > a restaurant. >>As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. > Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain tap > water. >>I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I > have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at night. >>I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. > But fruit never fills me up. >>Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat > peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I > am. > > >>Let me know your ideas. >>Ashley >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa > 5369%40netzero.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 > gmail.com > -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org From bfs1206 at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 22:37:44 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 18:37:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College Message-ID: Hello NABS Members, I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my old braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have a Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume that I will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. Thank You Brianna On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: > Thanks; I just heard her voice. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Mary Fernandez > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > > Dear Ashley, > Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, but for all of > America. I think that you have done some good things already by modifying > your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just wanted to look and > feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a wonderfu > program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really really simple, and > you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the stuff she does > is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to > www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, and it is > definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole hting with a > sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you get a good > idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I promise it > works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have specific > quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than happy to help. > I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So many of us > are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle with looking > gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F > > On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I am >> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what are the >> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it normal for >> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me it >> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. She tells >> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do those >> exercises in PE anyways. >> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, this >> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other discussions >> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >> >>>Hi all, >> >>>I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained weight >> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. The >> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain some >> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it until I put >> on different clothes. >>>BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my mom >> isn’t satisfied. >> >>>I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue >> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is a >>>person’s weight over height squared. >>>But its not far off. >>>I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it >> does affect your image and health. >>>Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with >> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >> >>>I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >> May and to have a better weight overall. >> >>>Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >> complex carbs. >>>For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat >> milk. >>>I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse >> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >> several years and do not see many results. I live with parents and my >> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not the >> refined kind! >> >> >>>I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot >> fit in a size 14 dress! >> >>>What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >> less calories? >>>I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and >> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >> >> >>>Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in >> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. >>>I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead >> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >> could not follow the fast pace! >>>I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most >> accessible. >> >>>I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the back >> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is too >> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. >> >> >>>I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! >> >>>Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >> worked for you. >>>My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t admit >> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the mid >> section is the hardest to lose. >>>Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose >> it. >>>I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when I’m out at >> a restaurant. >>>As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain tap >> water. >>>I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I >> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at night. >>>I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. >> But fruit never fills me up. >>>Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I >> am. >> >> >>>Let me know your ideas. >>>Ashley >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> 5369%40netzero.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >> gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. > Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. > 30322 > Phone: 732-857-7004 > > "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather > you weren't doing it." > Terry Pratchett > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > -- Brianna Scerenscko From orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 23:56:57 2011 From: orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com (Laura Glowacki) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 17:56:57 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College References: Message-ID: I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro blems than equations. Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for math, but other things too. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brianna Scerenscko" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College Hello NABS Members, I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my old braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have a Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume that I will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. Thank You Brianna On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: > Thanks; I just heard her voice. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org > [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Mary Fernandez > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > > Dear Ashley, > Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, > but for all of > America. I think that you have done some good things already by > modifying > your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just > wanted to look and > feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a > wonderfu > program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really > really simple, and > you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the > stuff she does > is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to > www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, > and it is > definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole > hting with a > sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you > get a good > idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I > promise it > works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have > specific > quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than > happy to help. > I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So > many of us > are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle > with looking > gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F > > On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >> that I am >> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >> are the >> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >> normal for >> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >> it >> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >> She tells >> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >> those >> exercises in PE anyways. >> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >> this >> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >> discussions >> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >> >>>Hi all, >> >>>I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >> weight >> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >> The >> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >> some >> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >> until I put >> on different clothes. >>>BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >> mom >> isn’t satisfied. >> >>>I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>tissue >> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>is a >>>person’s weight over height squared. >>>But its not far off. >>>I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>it >> does affect your image and health. >>>Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>with >> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >> >>>I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >> May and to have a better weight overall. >> >>>Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >> complex carbs. >>>For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>fat >> milk. >>>I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>worse >> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >> several years and do not see many results. I live with >> parents and my >> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >> the >> refined kind! >> >> >>>I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>cannot >> fit in a size 14 dress! >> >>>What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >> less calories? >>>I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>and >> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >> >> >>>Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>in >> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >> soccer. >>>I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>lead >> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >> could not follow the fast pace! >>>I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>most >> accessible. >> >>>I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >> the back >> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >> too >> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>enough. >> >> >>>I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>aerobics! >> >>>Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >> worked for you. >>>My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>admit >> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >> mid >> section is the hardest to lose. >>>Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>lose >> it. >>>I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >> I’m out at >> a restaurant. >>>As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >> tap >> water. >>>I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>I >> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >> night. >>>I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>instead. >> But fruit never fills me up. >>>Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>I >> am. >> >> >>>Let me know your ideas. >>>Ashley >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>info >> for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> 5369%40netzero.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >> gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory > University 2012 P.O. > Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. > 30322 > Phone: 732-857-7004 > > "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, > would much rather > you weren't doing it." > Terry Pratchett > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account > info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > -- Brianna Scerenscko _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com From bfs1206 at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 23:40:53 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 19:40:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank You On 3/23/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: > I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to > braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the > time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists > (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I > didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in > that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro > blems than equations. > > Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have > to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for > math, but other things too. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brianna Scerenscko" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College > > > Hello NABS Members, > > I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have > instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my > old > braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have > a > Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume > that I > will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. > > Thank You > > Brianna > > > On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: >> Thanks; I just heard her voice. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >> Of Mary Fernandez >> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >> >> Dear Ashley, >> Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, >> but for all of >> America. I think that you have done some good things already by >> modifying >> your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just >> wanted to look and >> feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a >> wonderfu >> program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really >> really simple, and >> you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the >> stuff she does >> is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to >> www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, >> and it is >> definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole >> hting with a >> sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you >> get a good >> idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I >> promise it >> works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have >> specific >> quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than >> happy to help. >> I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So >> many of us >> are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle >> with looking >> gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F >> >> On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >>> that I am >>> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >>> are the >>> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >>> normal for >>> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >>> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >>> it >>> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >>> She tells >>> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >>> those >>> exercises in PE anyways. >>> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >>> this >>> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >>> discussions >>> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >>> >>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>From: >>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>>Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>>Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>> >>>>Hi all, >>> >>>>I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >>> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >>> weight >>> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >>> The >>> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >>> some >>> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >>> until I put >>> on different clothes. >>>>BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >>> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >>> mom >>> isn’t satisfied. >>> >>>>I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>>tissue >>> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>>I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>>My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>>is a >>>>person’s weight over height squared. >>>>But its not far off. >>>>I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>>it >>> does affect your image and health. >>>>Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>>with >>> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >>> >>>>I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >>> May and to have a better weight overall. >>> >>>>Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >>> complex carbs. >>>>For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>>fat >>> milk. >>>>I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >>> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>>I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>>worse >>> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>>So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >>> several years and do not see many results. I live with >>> parents and my >>> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >>> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >>> the >>> refined kind! >>> >>> >>>>I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>>cannot >>> fit in a size 14 dress! >>> >>>>What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >>> less calories? >>>>I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>>and >>> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >>> >>> >>>>Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>>in >>> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >>> soccer. >>>>I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>>lead >>> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>>I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >>> could not follow the fast pace! >>>>I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>>most >>> accessible. >>> >>>>I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >>> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >>> the back >>> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >>> too >>> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>>I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>>enough. >>> >>> >>>>I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>>aerobics! >>> >>>>Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >>> worked for you. >>>>My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>>admit >>> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >>> mid >>> section is the hardest to lose. >>>>Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >>> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>>Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>>lose >>> it. >>>>I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >>> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >>> I’m out at >>> a restaurant. >>>>As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >>> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >>> tap >>> water. >>>>I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>>I >>> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >>> night. >>>>I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>>instead. >>> But fruit never fills me up. >>>>Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >>> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>>But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>>I >>> am. >>> >>> >>>>Let me know your ideas. >>>>Ashley >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>info >>> for nabs-l: >>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>> 5369%40netzero.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >>> gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mary Fernandez >> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory >> University 2012 P.O. >> Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. >> 30322 >> Phone: 732-857-7004 >> >> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, >> would much rather >> you weren't doing it." >> Terry Pratchett >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >> info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brianna Scerenscko > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info > for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > -- Brianna Scerenscko From ptrck.molloy at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 01:03:42 2011 From: ptrck.molloy at gmail.com (Patrick Molloy) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 21:03:42 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Brianna, Just a word of caution: The plastic Braillers may look nice, but to my knowledge, they can only take one type of paper size. I had the chance to try one of the plastic Braillers, and I honestly didn't notice that much of a difference. Just my opinion. Patrick On 3/23/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > Thank You > > On 3/23/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >> I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to >> braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the >> time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists >> (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I >> didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in >> that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro >> blems than equations. >> >> Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have >> to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for >> math, but other things too. >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM >> Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College >> >> >> Hello NABS Members, >> >> I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have >> instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my >> old >> braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have >> a >> Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume >> that I >> will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. >> >> Thank You >> >> Brianna >> >> >> On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: >>> Thanks; I just heard her voice. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>> Of Mary Fernandez >>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>> >>> Dear Ashley, >>> Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, >>> but for all of >>> America. I think that you have done some good things already by >>> modifying >>> your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just >>> wanted to look and >>> feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a >>> wonderfu >>> program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really >>> really simple, and >>> you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the >>> stuff she does >>> is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to >>> www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, >>> and it is >>> definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole >>> hting with a >>> sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you >>> get a good >>> idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I >>> promise it >>> works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have >>> specific >>> quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than >>> happy to help. >>> I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So >>> many of us >>> are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle >>> with looking >>> gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F >>> >>> On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >>>> that I am >>>> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >>>> are the >>>> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >>>> normal for >>>> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >>>> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >>>> it >>>> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >>>> She tells >>>> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >>>> those >>>> exercises in PE anyways. >>>> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >>>> this >>>> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >>>> discussions >>>> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >>>> >>>>>----- Original Message ----- >>>>>From: >>>>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>>Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>>>Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>> >>>>>Hi all, >>>> >>>>>I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >>>> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >>>> weight >>>> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >>>> The >>>> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >>>> some >>>> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >>>> until I put >>>> on different clothes. >>>>>BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >>>> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >>>> mom >>>> isn’t satisfied. >>>> >>>>>I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>>>tissue >>>> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>>>I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>>>My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>>>is a >>>>>person’s weight over height squared. >>>>>But its not far off. >>>>>I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>>>it >>>> does affect your image and health. >>>>>Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>>>with >>>> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >>>> >>>>>I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >>>> May and to have a better weight overall. >>>> >>>>>Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >>>> complex carbs. >>>>>For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>>>fat >>>> milk. >>>>>I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >>>> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>>>I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>>>worse >>>> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>>>So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >>>> several years and do not see many results. I live with >>>> parents and my >>>> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >>>> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >>>> the >>>> refined kind! >>>> >>>> >>>>>I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>>>cannot >>>> fit in a size 14 dress! >>>> >>>>>What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >>>> less calories? >>>>>I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>>>and >>>> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >>>> >>>> >>>>>Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>>>in >>>> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >>>> soccer. >>>>>I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>>>lead >>>> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>>>I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >>>> could not follow the fast pace! >>>>>I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>>>most >>>> accessible. >>>> >>>>>I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >>>> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >>>> the back >>>> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >>>> too >>>> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>>>I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>>>enough. >>>> >>>> >>>>>I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>>>aerobics! >>>> >>>>>Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >>>> worked for you. >>>>>My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>>>admit >>>> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >>>> mid >>>> section is the hardest to lose. >>>>>Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >>>> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>>>Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>>>lose >>>> it. >>>>>I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >>>> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >>>> I’m out at >>>> a restaurant. >>>>>As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >>>> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >>>> tap >>>> water. >>>>>I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>>>I >>>> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >>>> night. >>>>>I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>>>instead. >>>> But fruit never fills me up. >>>>>Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >>>> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>>>But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>>>I >>>> am. >>>> >>>> >>>>>Let me know your ideas. >>>>>Ashley >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>nabs-l mailing list >>>>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >>>> gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Mary Fernandez >>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory >>> University 2012 P.O. >>> Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. >>> 30322 >>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>> >>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, >>> would much rather >>> you weren't doing it." >>> Terry Pratchett >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>> info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brianna Scerenscko >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brianna Scerenscko > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 24 02:51:44 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 22:51:44 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Briana, I agree with Laura here. What bad advice not to have a brailler since you are getting a Braille Note. Does this braille instructor really think technology can replace hard copy braille? No, they compliment each other. Like Laura, I use it to label things with something like dimo tape, write grocery lists, and little portable notes I need like a phone number. I do not want to carry a Braille Note everywhere although I do take it to classes and most places for studying. Yes you'd need it for math; the linear display of a braille Note cannot show you the spatial relationships in math although some do perform math on the Braille Note. That said, if you have a brailler already why not keep it if it works alright. The new braillers are smaller and weigh less, but the old metal ones like I have are good and durable. Also see if your family or you can buy it. I think if rehab buys you a Braille Note and more technology they're not going to buy you a brailler; they'll say you can read and write with your Braille Note or computer. Besides you'll use the brailler for personal things too, not just school. I'd want to get my own writing equipment and not have it be the agency's if at all possible. I know financial situations play a part though. Under some circumstances, remember that you have to return their equipment/tools such as if you move out of state or close your case unsuccessfully. I mean if you are not employed yet and opt to close the case. Some do for reasons such as disagreements with the agency. Either way, I hope you can get one because it’s a very useful tool with other technology. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 6:37 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College Hello NABS Members, I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my old braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have a Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume that I will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. Thank You Brianna On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: > Thanks; I just heard her voice. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On > Behalf > Of Mary Fernandez > Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues > > Dear Ashley, > Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, but for all > of > America. I think that you have done some good things already by modifying > your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just wanted to look > and > feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a wonderfu > program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really really simple, > and > you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the stuff she > does > is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to > www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, and it is > definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole hting with a > sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you get a good > idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I promise it > works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have specific > quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than happy to help. > I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So many of us > are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle with > looking > gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F > > On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >> Hi, >> >> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, that I am >> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what are the >> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it normal for >> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me it >> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. She tells >> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do those >> exercises in PE anyways. >> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, this >> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other discussions >> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: >>To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >>Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >> >>>Hi all, >> >>>I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained weight >> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. The >> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain some >> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it until I put >> on different clothes. >>>BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my mom >> isn’t satisfied. >> >>>I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue >> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is a >>>person’s weight over height squared. >>>But its not far off. >>>I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it >> does affect your image and health. >>>Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with >> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >> >>>I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >> May and to have a better weight overall. >> >>>Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >> complex carbs. >>>For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat >> milk. >>>I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse >> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >> several years and do not see many results. I live with parents and my >> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not the >> refined kind! >> >> >>>I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot >> fit in a size 14 dress! >> >>>What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >> less calories? >>>I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and >> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >> >> >>>Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in >> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. >>>I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead >> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >> could not follow the fast pace! >>>I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most >> accessible. >> >>>I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the back >> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is too >> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. >> >> >>>I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! >> >>>Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >> worked for you. >>>My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t admit >> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the mid >> section is the hardest to lose. >>>Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose >> it. >>>I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when I’m out at >> a restaurant. >>>As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain tap >> water. >>>I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I >> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at night. >>>I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. >> But fruit never fills me up. >>>Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I >> am. >> >> >>>Let me know your ideas. >>>Ashley >>>_______________________________________________ >>>nabs-l mailing list >>>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> for nabs-l: >>>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> 5369%40netzero.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >> gmail.com >> > > > -- > Mary Fernandez > President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 > P.O. > Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. > 30322 > Phone: 732-857-7004 > > "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much > rather > you weren't doing it." > Terry Pratchett > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > -- Brianna Scerenscko _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From gpaikens at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 03:24:52 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 22:24:52 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9CEBCF42-BC74-4B9C-BAA9-FD87EDE71240@gmail.com> The new braillers really don't seem to weigh a lot less than the old ones, and not having the ability to adjust paper size is a negative in my opinion. Also, we have had a lot oftrouble at my university with the new ones breaking quite frequently. The one really great feature on the new brailler is the eraser built in to the embossing head. It works better than I expected. I would keep the old metal Perkins though. -Greg On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: > Brianna, > Just a word of caution: The plastic Braillers may look nice, but to my > knowledge, they can only take one type of paper size. I had the chance > to try one of the plastic Braillers, and I honestly didn't notice that > much of a difference. Just my opinion. > Patrick > > On 3/23/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >> Thank You >> >> On 3/23/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>> I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to >>> braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the >>> time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists >>> (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I >>> didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in >>> that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro >>> blems than equations. >>> >>> Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have >>> to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for >>> math, but other things too. >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College >>> >>> >>> Hello NABS Members, >>> >>> I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have >>> instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my >>> old >>> braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have >>> a >>> Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume >>> that I >>> will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. >>> >>> Thank You >>> >>> Brianna >>> >>> >>> On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: >>>> Thanks; I just heard her voice. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>> Of Mary Fernandez >>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>> >>>> Dear Ashley, >>>> Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, >>>> but for all of >>>> America. I think that you have done some good things already by >>>> modifying >>>> your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just >>>> wanted to look and >>>> feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a >>>> wonderfu >>>> program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really >>>> really simple, and >>>> you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the >>>> stuff she does >>>> is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to >>>> www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, >>>> and it is >>>> definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole >>>> hting with a >>>> sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you >>>> get a good >>>> idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I >>>> promise it >>>> works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have >>>> specific >>>> quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than >>>> happy to help. >>>> I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So >>>> many of us >>>> are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle >>>> with looking >>>> gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F >>>> >>>> On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >>>>> that I am >>>>> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >>>>> are the >>>>> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >>>>> normal for >>>>> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >>>>> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >>>>> it >>>>> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >>>>> She tells >>>>> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >>>>> those >>>>> exercises in PE anyways. >>>>> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >>>>> this >>>>> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >>>>> discussions >>>>> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>> >>>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>>> I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >>>>> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >>>>> weight >>>>> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >>>>> The >>>>> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >>>>> some >>>>> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >>>>> until I put >>>>> on different clothes. >>>>>> BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >>>>> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >>>>> mom >>>>> isn’t satisfied. >>>>> >>>>>> I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>>>> tissue >>>>> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>>>> I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>>>> My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>>>> is a >>>>>> person’s weight over height squared. >>>>>> But its not far off. >>>>>> I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>>>> it >>>>> does affect your image and health. >>>>>> Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>>>> with >>>>> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >>>>> >>>>>> I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >>>>> May and to have a better weight overall. >>>>> >>>>>> Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >>>>> complex carbs. >>>>>> For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>>>> fat >>>>> milk. >>>>>> I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >>>>> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>>>> I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>>>> worse >>>>> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>>>> So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >>>>> several years and do not see many results. I live with >>>>> parents and my >>>>> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >>>>> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >>>>> the >>>>> refined kind! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>>>> cannot >>>>> fit in a size 14 dress! >>>>> >>>>>> What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >>>>> less calories? >>>>>> I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>>>> and >>>>> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>>>> in >>>>> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >>>>> soccer. >>>>>> I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>>>> lead >>>>> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>>>> I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >>>>> could not follow the fast pace! >>>>>> I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>>>> most >>>>> accessible. >>>>> >>>>>> I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >>>>> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >>>>> the back >>>>> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >>>>> too >>>>> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>>>> I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>>>> enough. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>>>> aerobics! >>>>> >>>>>> Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >>>>> worked for you. >>>>>> My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>>>> admit >>>>> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >>>>> mid >>>>> section is the hardest to lose. >>>>>> Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >>>>> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>>>> Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>>>> lose >>>>> it. >>>>>> I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >>>>> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >>>>> I’m out at >>>>> a restaurant. >>>>>> As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >>>>> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >>>>> tap >>>>> water. >>>>>> I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>>>> I >>>>> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >>>>> night. >>>>>> I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>>>> instead. >>>>> But fruit never fills me up. >>>>>> Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >>>>> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>>>> But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>>>> I >>>>> am. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Let me know your ideas. >>>>>> Ashley >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >>>>> gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Mary Fernandez >>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory >>>> University 2012 P.O. >>>> Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. >>>> 30322 >>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>> >>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, >>>> would much rather >>>> you weren't doing it." >>>> Terry Pratchett >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>> info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brianna Scerenscko >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> for nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brianna Scerenscko >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu Mar 24 04:05:53 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 23:05:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: <9CEBCF42-BC74-4B9C-BAA9-FD87EDE71240@gmail.com> References: <9CEBCF42-BC74-4B9C-BAA9-FD87EDE71240@gmail.com> Message-ID: Are these "plastic braillers, the ones that were created by David Pillischer? Just wondering. Blessings, Joshua On 3/23/11, Greg Aikens wrote: > The new braillers really don't seem to weigh a lot less than the old ones, > and not having the ability to adjust paper size is a negative in my opinion. > Also, we have had a lot oftrouble at my university with the new ones > breaking quite frequently. > > The one really great feature on the new brailler is the eraser built in to > the embossing head. It works better than I expected. > > I would keep the old metal Perkins though. > > -Greg > On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: > >> Brianna, >> Just a word of caution: The plastic Braillers may look nice, but to my >> knowledge, they can only take one type of paper size. I had the chance >> to try one of the plastic Braillers, and I honestly didn't notice that >> much of a difference. Just my opinion. >> Patrick >> >> On 3/23/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>> Thank You >>> >>> On 3/23/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>> I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to >>>> braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the >>>> time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists >>>> (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I >>>> didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in >>>> that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro >>>> blems than equations. >>>> >>>> Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have >>>> to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for >>>> math, but other things too. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello NABS Members, >>>> >>>> I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have >>>> instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my >>>> old >>>> braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have >>>> a >>>> Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume >>>> that I >>>> will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. >>>> >>>> Thank You >>>> >>>> Brianna >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: >>>>> Thanks; I just heard her voice. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>>> Of Mary Fernandez >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>> >>>>> Dear Ashley, >>>>> Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, >>>>> but for all of >>>>> America. I think that you have done some good things already by >>>>> modifying >>>>> your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just >>>>> wanted to look and >>>>> feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a >>>>> wonderfu >>>>> program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really >>>>> really simple, and >>>>> you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the >>>>> stuff she does >>>>> is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to >>>>> www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, >>>>> and it is >>>>> definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole >>>>> hting with a >>>>> sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you >>>>> get a good >>>>> idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I >>>>> promise it >>>>> works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have >>>>> specific >>>>> quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than >>>>> happy to help. >>>>> I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So >>>>> many of us >>>>> are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle >>>>> with looking >>>>> gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F >>>>> >>>>> On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >>>>>> that I am >>>>>> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >>>>>> are the >>>>>> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >>>>>> normal for >>>>>> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >>>>>> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >>>>>> it >>>>>> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >>>>>> She tells >>>>>> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >>>>>> those >>>>>> exercises in PE anyways. >>>>>> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >>>>>> this >>>>>> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >>>>>> discussions >>>>>> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>>> I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >>>>>> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >>>>>> weight >>>>>> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >>>>>> The >>>>>> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >>>>>> some >>>>>> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >>>>>> until I put >>>>>> on different clothes. >>>>>>> BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >>>>>> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >>>>>> mom >>>>>> isn’t satisfied. >>>>>> >>>>>>> I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>>>>> tissue >>>>>> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>>>>> I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>>>>> My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>>>>> is a >>>>>>> person’s weight over height squared. >>>>>>> But its not far off. >>>>>>> I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>>>>> it >>>>>> does affect your image and health. >>>>>>> Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>>>>> with >>>>>> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >>>>>> >>>>>>> I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >>>>>> May and to have a better weight overall. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >>>>>> complex carbs. >>>>>>> For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>>>>> fat >>>>>> milk. >>>>>>> I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >>>>>> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>>>>> I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>>>>> worse >>>>>> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>>>>> So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >>>>>> several years and do not see many results. I live with >>>>>> parents and my >>>>>> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >>>>>> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >>>>>> the >>>>>> refined kind! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>>>>> cannot >>>>>> fit in a size 14 dress! >>>>>> >>>>>>> What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >>>>>> less calories? >>>>>>> I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>>>>> and >>>>>> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>>>>> in >>>>>> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >>>>>> soccer. >>>>>>> I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>>>>> lead >>>>>> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>>>>> I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >>>>>> could not follow the fast pace! >>>>>>> I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>>>>> most >>>>>> accessible. >>>>>> >>>>>>> I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >>>>>> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >>>>>> the back >>>>>> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >>>>>> too >>>>>> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>>>>> I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>>>>> enough. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>>>>> aerobics! >>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >>>>>> worked for you. >>>>>>> My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>>>>> admit >>>>>> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >>>>>> mid >>>>>> section is the hardest to lose. >>>>>>> Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >>>>>> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>>>>> Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>>>>> lose >>>>>> it. >>>>>>> I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >>>>>> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >>>>>> I’m out at >>>>>> a restaurant. >>>>>>> As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >>>>>> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >>>>>> tap >>>>>> water. >>>>>>> I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>>>>> I >>>>>> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >>>>>> night. >>>>>>> I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>>>>> instead. >>>>>> But fruit never fills me up. >>>>>>> Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >>>>>> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>>>>> But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>>>>> I >>>>>> am. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Let me know your ideas. >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Mary Fernandez >>>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory >>>>> University 2012 P.O. >>>>> Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. >>>>> 30322 >>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>>> >>>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, >>>>> would much rather >>>>> you weren't doing it." >>>>> Terry Pratchett >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brianna Scerenscko >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From dandrews at visi.com Thu Mar 24 09:27:14 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 04:27:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] On-Line Education Message-ID: Note: The following article is from a free, long-running, online e-zine called "The Internet Tourbus" written by Bob Rankin and published online March 22, 2011. He teaches about Internet technology and subjects in language suitable for non-tech readers. Here is his article from today's "Ask Bob Rankin": University of Phoenix Online Degrees Category: Education "When I search online for a job, career training, or any related subject I always find advertisements for the University of Phoenix and its online degree programs. Is UoP a real college or a diploma mill? Will an online degree improve my odds of getting hired as much as a traditional degree earned in a classroom?" Is University of Phoenix For Real? University of Phoenix Online Degree First, the University of Phoenix is definitely a "real" college. In fact, its total enrollment is second only to the State University of New York (SUNY), at over 412,000 undergraduates and 78,000 graduate students. While online courses are its bread-and-butter, UoP also has physical campuses in 40 of the United States and 200 campuses worldwide. UoP is accredited regionally by The Higher Learning Commission (HLC) as a member of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools (NCA). It also has accreditation for many of its 100 specialty degree programs. But accreditation is not a guarantee that credits earned at one school are transferable to others, or that a degree from an accredited school is as good as any other degree. Several things may make you wonder how academically rigorous a UoP degree program is. First, students spend only 20 to 24 hours with an instructor during each course, compared to 40 hours at a traditional university. Many colleges and employers are skeptical of UoP's academic rigor; one professor refers to its business degree as "MBA Lite." Even former UoP instructors complain the courses are too short to inculcate all the material covered by the curriculum. Second, UoP is a for-profit higher education institution, and they don't have the greatest track record. While only 9% of college students attend for-profit colleges, they account for 44% of all student loan defaults. Third, only 16% of UoP students graduate, compared to a 55% average nationwide. (UoP claims that the criteria used to calculate the graduation rate apply to only 7% of its "non-traditional" students and offers its own 59% graduation rate.) Fourth, UoP relies on part-time instructors to an extraordinary degree, raising criticism about instructor quality and experience. Nationwide, about 47% of instructors are part-timers; at UoP, about 95% are. Is a University of Phoenix Degree Worth The Price? The University of Phoenix is owned by The Apollo Group, a publicly traded corporation. Like any such corporation, its first loyalty is to shareholders, not students. It is widely argued that UoP sacrifices academic quality to meet investors' demands for ever-higher profits. Intel Corp. dropped UoP from its list of schools for which Intel employees could receive tuition reimbursement, saying the UoP lacked top-notch accreditation. Before enrolling in any continuing-education program, it's good idea to check with your employer to see if tuition reimbursement is available for that particular school and course. In general, academic experts concur that for-profit colleges such as the University of Phoenix cost 4-5 times more per credit hour than non-profit (government subsidized) colleges, deliver less valuable education, and leave students with twice as much debt. It's buyer beware, for sure! But then, an education is often what the student decides to make of it. And if an online degree is your only path to advancement, it may be worth a look. With eyes wide open, of course. Have you had experience with UoP or another online college? Post your comment or question below... -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: clip_image001.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 19114 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gpaikens at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 12:23:14 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 07:23:14 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: References: <9CEBCF42-BC74-4B9C-BAA9-FD87EDE71240@gmail.com> Message-ID: <977B2EE3-0E67-4D6A-8E88-F2A199DF79E6@gmail.com> The one I am referring to is produced by the American Printing house for the Blind and is called the "Next Generation" Perkins or the APH/Perkins brailler. On Mar 23, 2011, at 11:05 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > Are these "plastic braillers, the ones that were created by David Pillischer? > Just wondering. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/23/11, Greg Aikens wrote: >> The new braillers really don't seem to weigh a lot less than the old ones, >> and not having the ability to adjust paper size is a negative in my opinion. >> Also, we have had a lot oftrouble at my university with the new ones >> breaking quite frequently. >> >> The one really great feature on the new brailler is the eraser built in to >> the embossing head. It works better than I expected. >> >> I would keep the old metal Perkins though. >> >> -Greg >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> >>> Brianna, >>> Just a word of caution: The plastic Braillers may look nice, but to my >>> knowledge, they can only take one type of paper size. I had the chance >>> to try one of the plastic Braillers, and I honestly didn't notice that >>> much of a difference. Just my opinion. >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 3/23/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>>> Thank You >>>> >>>> On 3/23/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>> I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to >>>>> braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the >>>>> time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists >>>>> (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I >>>>> didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in >>>>> that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro >>>>> blems than equations. >>>>> >>>>> Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have >>>>> to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for >>>>> math, but other things too. >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello NABS Members, >>>>> >>>>> I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have >>>>> instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my >>>>> old >>>>> braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have >>>>> a >>>>> Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume >>>>> that I >>>>> will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. >>>>> >>>>> Thank You >>>>> >>>>> Brianna >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: >>>>>> Thanks; I just heard her voice. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>>>> Of Mary Fernandez >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Ashley, >>>>>> Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, >>>>>> but for all of >>>>>> America. I think that you have done some good things already by >>>>>> modifying >>>>>> your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just >>>>>> wanted to look and >>>>>> feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a >>>>>> wonderfu >>>>>> program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really >>>>>> really simple, and >>>>>> you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the >>>>>> stuff she does >>>>>> is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to >>>>>> www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, >>>>>> and it is >>>>>> definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole >>>>>> hting with a >>>>>> sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you >>>>>> get a good >>>>>> idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I >>>>>> promise it >>>>>> works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have >>>>>> specific >>>>>> quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than >>>>>> happy to help. >>>>>> I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So >>>>>> many of us >>>>>> are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle >>>>>> with looking >>>>>> gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >>>>>>> that I am >>>>>>> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >>>>>>> are the >>>>>>> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >>>>>>> normal for >>>>>>> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >>>>>>> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >>>>>>> She tells >>>>>>> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> exercises in PE anyways. >>>>>>> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >>>>>>> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >>>>>>> weight >>>>>>> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >>>>>>> until I put >>>>>>> on different clothes. >>>>>>>> BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >>>>>>> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >>>>>>> mom >>>>>>> isn’t satisfied. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>>>>>> tissue >>>>>>> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>>>>>> I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>>>>>> My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>> person’s weight over height squared. >>>>>>>> But its not far off. >>>>>>>> I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>> does affect your image and health. >>>>>>>> Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >>>>>>> May and to have a better weight overall. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >>>>>>> complex carbs. >>>>>>>> For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>>>>>> fat >>>>>>> milk. >>>>>>>> I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >>>>>>> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>>>>>> I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>>>>>> worse >>>>>>> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>>>>>> So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >>>>>>> several years and do not see many results. I live with >>>>>>> parents and my >>>>>>> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >>>>>>> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> refined kind! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>> fit in a size 14 dress! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >>>>>>> less calories? >>>>>>>> I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >>>>>>> soccer. >>>>>>>> I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>>>>>> I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >>>>>>> could not follow the fast pace! >>>>>>>> I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>>>>>> most >>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >>>>>>> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >>>>>>> the back >>>>>>> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >>>>>>> too >>>>>>> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>>>>>> I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>>>>>> enough. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>>>>>> aerobics! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >>>>>>> worked for you. >>>>>>>> My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>>>>>> admit >>>>>>> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >>>>>>> mid >>>>>>> section is the hardest to lose. >>>>>>>> Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >>>>>>> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>>>>>> Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>>>>>> lose >>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>> I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >>>>>>> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >>>>>>> I’m out at >>>>>>> a restaurant. >>>>>>>> As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >>>>>>> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >>>>>>> tap >>>>>>> water. >>>>>>>> I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >>>>>>> night. >>>>>>>> I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>>>>>> instead. >>>>>>> But fruit never fills me up. >>>>>>>> Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >>>>>>> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>>>>>> But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let me know your ideas. >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>>>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >>>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Mary Fernandez >>>>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory >>>>>> University 2012 P.O. >>>>>> Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. >>>>>> 30322 >>>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>>>> >>>>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, >>>>>> would much rather >>>>>> you weren't doing it." >>>>>> Terry Pratchett >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu Mar 24 15:07:45 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:07:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: <977B2EE3-0E67-4D6A-8E88-F2A199DF79E6@gmail.com> References: <9CEBCF42-BC74-4B9C-BAA9-FD87EDE71240@gmail.com> <977B2EE3-0E67-4D6A-8E88-F2A199DF79E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I was just wondering, because the one David showed me wasn't plastic. Brianna, I'd recommend that one to you. I'll E-mail you off list with more information about it. Blessings, Joshua On 3/24/11, Greg Aikens wrote: > The one I am referring to is produced by the American Printing house for the > Blind and is called the "Next Generation" Perkins or the APH/Perkins > brailler. > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 11:05 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: > >> Are these "plastic braillers, the ones that were created by David >> Pillischer? >> Just wondering. >> Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 3/23/11, Greg Aikens wrote: >>> The new braillers really don't seem to weigh a lot less than the old >>> ones, >>> and not having the ability to adjust paper size is a negative in my >>> opinion. >>> Also, we have had a lot oftrouble at my university with the new ones >>> breaking quite frequently. >>> >>> The one really great feature on the new brailler is the eraser built in >>> to >>> the embossing head. It works better than I expected. >>> >>> I would keep the old metal Perkins though. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> >>>> Brianna, >>>> Just a word of caution: The plastic Braillers may look nice, but to my >>>> knowledge, they can only take one type of paper size. I had the chance >>>> to try one of the plastic Braillers, and I honestly didn't notice that >>>> much of a difference. Just my opinion. >>>> Patrick >>>> >>>> On 3/23/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>>>> Thank You >>>>> >>>>> On 3/23/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>> I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to >>>>>> braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the >>>>>> time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists >>>>>> (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I >>>>>> didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in >>>>>> that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro >>>>>> blems than equations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have >>>>>> to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for >>>>>> math, but other things too. >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello NABS Members, >>>>>> >>>>>> I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have >>>>>> instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my >>>>>> old >>>>>> braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have >>>>>> a >>>>>> Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume >>>>>> that I >>>>>> will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank You >>>>>> >>>>>> Brianna >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: >>>>>>> Thanks; I just heard her voice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>>>>> Of Mary Fernandez >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Ashley, >>>>>>> Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, >>>>>>> but for all of >>>>>>> America. I think that you have done some good things already by >>>>>>> modifying >>>>>>> your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just >>>>>>> wanted to look and >>>>>>> feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a >>>>>>> wonderfu >>>>>>> program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really >>>>>>> really simple, and >>>>>>> you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the >>>>>>> stuff she does >>>>>>> is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to >>>>>>> www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, >>>>>>> and it is >>>>>>> definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole >>>>>>> hting with a >>>>>>> sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you >>>>>>> get a good >>>>>>> idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I >>>>>>> promise it >>>>>>> works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have >>>>>>> specific >>>>>>> quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than >>>>>>> happy to help. >>>>>>> I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So >>>>>>> many of us >>>>>>> are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle >>>>>>> with looking >>>>>>> gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >>>>>>>> that I am >>>>>>>> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >>>>>>>> are the >>>>>>>> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >>>>>>>> normal for >>>>>>>> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >>>>>>>> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >>>>>>>> She tells >>>>>>>> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> exercises in PE anyways. >>>>>>>> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >>>>>>>> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >>>>>>>> weight >>>>>>>> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >>>>>>>> until I put >>>>>>>> on different clothes. >>>>>>>>> BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >>>>>>>> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >>>>>>>> mom >>>>>>>> isn’t satisfied. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>>>>>>> tissue >>>>>>>> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>>>>>>> I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>>>>>>> My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>> person’s weight over height squared. >>>>>>>>> But its not far off. >>>>>>>>> I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> does affect your image and health. >>>>>>>>> Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >>>>>>>> May and to have a better weight overall. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >>>>>>>> complex carbs. >>>>>>>>> For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>>>>>>> fat >>>>>>>> milk. >>>>>>>>> I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >>>>>>>> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>>>>>>> I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>>>>>>> worse >>>>>>>> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>>>>>>> So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >>>>>>>> several years and do not see many results. I live with >>>>>>>> parents and my >>>>>>>> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >>>>>>>> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> refined kind! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>> fit in a size 14 dress! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >>>>>>>> less calories? >>>>>>>>> I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >>>>>>>> soccer. >>>>>>>>> I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>>>>>>> I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >>>>>>>> could not follow the fast pace! >>>>>>>>> I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >>>>>>>> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >>>>>>>> the back >>>>>>>> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>>>>>>> I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>>>>>>> enough. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>>>>>>> aerobics! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >>>>>>>> worked for you. >>>>>>>>> My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>>>>>>> admit >>>>>>>> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >>>>>>>> mid >>>>>>>> section is the hardest to lose. >>>>>>>>> Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >>>>>>>> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>>>>>>> Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>>>>>>> lose >>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>> I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >>>>>>>> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >>>>>>>> I’m out at >>>>>>>> a restaurant. >>>>>>>>> As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >>>>>>>> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >>>>>>>> tap >>>>>>>> water. >>>>>>>>> I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >>>>>>>> night. >>>>>>>>> I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>>>>>>> instead. >>>>>>>> But fruit never fills me up. >>>>>>>>> Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >>>>>>>> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>>>>>>> But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> am. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Let me know your ideas. >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>>>>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >>>>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Mary Fernandez >>>>>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory >>>>>>> University 2012 P.O. >>>>>>> Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. >>>>>>> 30322 >>>>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, >>>>>>> would much rather >>>>>>> you weren't doing it." >>>>>>> Terry Pratchett >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From kaybaycar at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 15:24:30 2011 From: kaybaycar at gmail.com (Julie McGinnity) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 10:24:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: References: <9CEBCF42-BC74-4B9C-BAA9-FD87EDE71240@gmail.com> <977B2EE3-0E67-4D6A-8E88-F2A199DF79E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I would also suggest keeping your brailler around. Even with a braille note, there are times you just want hard copy braille, and if you don't have an embossor, a brailler is the way to go. I've used mine to make myself notes for a presentations, and when I took acting classes, I used to write out scripts for myself. Scripts are a lot easier if you have hard copy pages. I would suggest also keeping your old Perkins brailler. You can keep it in your dorm room and use it there. On 3/24/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > I was just wondering, because the one David showed me wasn't plastic. > Brianna, I'd recommend that one to you. I'll E-mail you off list with > more information about it. Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/24/11, Greg Aikens wrote: >> The one I am referring to is produced by the American Printing house for >> the >> Blind and is called the "Next Generation" Perkins or the APH/Perkins >> brailler. >> >> >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 11:05 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >> >>> Are these "plastic braillers, the ones that were created by David >>> Pillischer? >>> Just wondering. >>> Blessings, Joshua >>> >>> On 3/23/11, Greg Aikens wrote: >>>> The new braillers really don't seem to weigh a lot less than the old >>>> ones, >>>> and not having the ability to adjust paper size is a negative in my >>>> opinion. >>>> Also, we have had a lot oftrouble at my university with the new ones >>>> breaking quite frequently. >>>> >>>> The one really great feature on the new brailler is the eraser built in >>>> to >>>> the embossing head. It works better than I expected. >>>> >>>> I would keep the old metal Perkins though. >>>> >>>> -Greg >>>> On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>>> >>>>> Brianna, >>>>> Just a word of caution: The plastic Braillers may look nice, but to my >>>>> knowledge, they can only take one type of paper size. I had the chance >>>>> to try one of the plastic Braillers, and I honestly didn't notice that >>>>> much of a difference. Just my opinion. >>>>> Patrick >>>>> >>>>> On 3/23/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>>>>> Thank You >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/23/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>>> I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to >>>>>>> braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the >>>>>>> time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists >>>>>>> (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I >>>>>>> didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in >>>>>>> that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro >>>>>>> blems than equations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have >>>>>>> to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for >>>>>>> math, but other things too. >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hello NABS Members, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have >>>>>>> instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my >>>>>>> old >>>>>>> braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume >>>>>>> that I >>>>>>> will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thank You >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Brianna >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: >>>>>>>> Thanks; I just heard her voice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>>>>>> Of Mary Fernandez >>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM >>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Dear Ashley, >>>>>>>> Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, >>>>>>>> but for all of >>>>>>>> America. I think that you have done some good things already by >>>>>>>> modifying >>>>>>>> your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just >>>>>>>> wanted to look and >>>>>>>> feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a >>>>>>>> wonderfu >>>>>>>> program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really >>>>>>>> really simple, and >>>>>>>> you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the >>>>>>>> stuff she does >>>>>>>> is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to >>>>>>>> www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, >>>>>>>> and it is >>>>>>>> definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole >>>>>>>> hting with a >>>>>>>> sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you >>>>>>>> get a good >>>>>>>> idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I >>>>>>>> promise it >>>>>>>> works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have >>>>>>>> specific >>>>>>>> quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than >>>>>>>> happy to help. >>>>>>>> I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So >>>>>>>> many of us >>>>>>>> are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle >>>>>>>> with looking >>>>>>>> gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >>>>>>>>> that I am >>>>>>>>> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >>>>>>>>> are the >>>>>>>>> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >>>>>>>>> normal for >>>>>>>>> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >>>>>>>>> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >>>>>>>>> She tells >>>>>>>>> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> exercises in PE anyways. >>>>>>>>> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >>>>>>>>> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >>>>>>>>> weight >>>>>>>>> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >>>>>>>>> until I put >>>>>>>>> on different clothes. >>>>>>>>>> BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >>>>>>>>> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >>>>>>>>> mom >>>>>>>>> isn’t satisfied. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>>>>>>>> tissue >>>>>>>>> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>>>>>>>> I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>>>>>>>> My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>>> person’s weight over height squared. >>>>>>>>>> But its not far off. >>>>>>>>>> I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>> does affect your image and health. >>>>>>>>>> Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >>>>>>>>> May and to have a better weight overall. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >>>>>>>>> complex carbs. >>>>>>>>>> For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>>>>>>>> fat >>>>>>>>> milk. >>>>>>>>>> I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >>>>>>>>> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>>>>>>>> I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>>>>>>>> worse >>>>>>>>> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>>>>>>>> So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >>>>>>>>> several years and do not see many results. I live with >>>>>>>>> parents and my >>>>>>>>> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >>>>>>>>> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> refined kind! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>> fit in a size 14 dress! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >>>>>>>>> less calories? >>>>>>>>>> I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >>>>>>>>> soccer. >>>>>>>>>> I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>>>>>>>> I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >>>>>>>>> could not follow the fast pace! >>>>>>>>>> I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >>>>>>>>> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >>>>>>>>> the back >>>>>>>>> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>>>>>>>> I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>>>>>>>> enough. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>>>>>>>> aerobics! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >>>>>>>>> worked for you. >>>>>>>>>> My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>>>>>>>> admit >>>>>>>>> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >>>>>>>>> mid >>>>>>>>> section is the hardest to lose. >>>>>>>>>> Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >>>>>>>>> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>>>>>>>> Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>>>>>>>> lose >>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>> I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >>>>>>>>> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >>>>>>>>> I’m out at >>>>>>>>> a restaurant. >>>>>>>>>> As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >>>>>>>>> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >>>>>>>>> tap >>>>>>>>> water. >>>>>>>>>> I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >>>>>>>>> night. >>>>>>>>>> I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>>>>>>>> instead. >>>>>>>>> But fruit never fills me up. >>>>>>>>>> Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >>>>>>>>> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>>>>>>>> But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> am. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Let me know your ideas. >>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>>>>>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >>>>>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Mary Fernandez >>>>>>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory >>>>>>>> University 2012 P.O. >>>>>>>> Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. >>>>>>>> 30322 >>>>>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, >>>>>>>> would much rather >>>>>>>> you weren't doing it." >>>>>>>> Terry Pratchett >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com > -- Julie McG Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding Eyes for the Blind "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life." John 3:16 From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 16:50:29 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 09:50:29 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Reminder: Upcoming membership calls. Message-ID: Hi all, On behalf of The membership committee of the National Association of Blind Students, I would like to draw your attention to the date Sunday, March 27. On Sunday the 27th, the membership committee will hold two calls. The first call is scheduled for 6:30 p.m. eastern time, and will be a continuation of the summer program conference call. On this call, we will have reps fromLCB and BLIND inc who will talk about their summer programs, and how youth may get involved in a summer of education, fun, and maybe a little part-time employment :) The Second call, at 7p.m. will talk about the three NFB training centers. On this call, students who are currently attending a training center will be on hand to talk about their expiriences at the center, and answer any questions you may have. Call in information for these calls, to take place on sunday march 27, and 6:30, and 7p.m. eastern time, respectivly are as follows: (712) 775 - 7100. Pass code is 257963. Be on the look out for more info, but save the date! Bringing the info from across the country to your computer, landline, cell phone, victor stream or whatever new contraptions those dang students have these days, The National Association of Blind Students Membership committee. . -- Darian Smith Board member /Chair: Membership committee National Association of blind Students 2nd Vice-president California Association of Blind Students Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From dpowell at latech.edu Thu Mar 24 13:10:25 2011 From: dpowell at latech.edu (Deja Powell) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 08:10:25 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] T-Shirt to Promote Independence for the Blind!! Message-ID: <005b01cbea24$d72eec90$858cc5b0$@edu> Check out these super fun t-shirts… T-Shirts that Promote Independence for the Blind We are glad to offer you two new T-Shirts that are designed to promote independence for the blind in a fun and moving way. We have two different shirts to offer. The descriptions, picture, and order information for both are listed below. For more information, you can call Edward Bell or Dianne Seilhan at 318-257-4554, ordseilhan at latech.edu. Use More Canes This shirt, reminiscent of the Chick-Fil-A ® Cow, is a Red, short sleeve T-shirt with a graphic cartoon of a cute yellow dog standing up on hind legs. The dog is wearing a blindfold and holding a long white cane in his right paw He is holding a white sign that says in black letters “Use More Canes" in his left paw. Priceless This shirt, touting the importance of independence that cannot be captured at any cost, is a black short sleeve T-shirt with white lettering. The front of the shirt has a printed list which says: “White Cane: $25 Braille Lessons: $45 Accessible Software: $750” The back of the shirt says: “Independence for the Blind… Priceless!” Adult shirts are $20 each; Youth shirts are $15 each Sizes are: Adult: small, medium, large, XL, XXL; Ladies fitted: small, medium, and large; Youth: medium or large We have two options for you to purchase: 1. To place an order by e-mail or phone, send an email to dseilhan at latech.edu, or call 318-257-4554. Make sure to include the type of shirt, size and quantity, your mailing address, and contact information. Include $5.00 shipping for 1-5 shirts, $10.00 for 6-10 shirts—speak with a representative for larger orders. 2. To purchase online, go to: http://www.gemini-rt.com/?page_id=37. Include $5.00 shipping for 1-5 shirts, $10.00 for 6-10 shirts—speak with a representative for larger orders Edward C. Bell, Ph.D., CRC, NOMC REGISTER TO TAKE THE NATIONAL CERTIFICATION IN LITERARY BRAILLE (NCLB) Exam http://www.nbpcb.org/pages/announcements.php Director, Professional Development and Research Institute on Blindness Louisiana Tech University 210 Woodard Hall PO Box 3158 Ruston LA 71272 Office: 318.257.4554 Fax: 318.257.2259 (Fax) Skype: edwardbell2010 ebell at latech.edu www.latech.edu/instituteonblindness ******************** "I am somehow less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein's brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops." -- Stephen Jay Gould _______________________________________________ From ignasicambra at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 17:04:00 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 13:04:00 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: References: <9CEBCF42-BC74-4B9C-BAA9-FD87EDE71240@gmail.com> <977B2EE3-0E67-4D6A-8E88-F2A199DF79E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I agree. I love my Perkins brailler. I really don't use it much, but I like having it around when I need it. On Mar 24, 2011, at 11:24 AM, Julie McGinnity wrote: > I would also suggest keeping your brailler around. Even with a > braille note, there are times you just want hard copy braille, and if > you don't have an embossor, a brailler is the way to go. I've used > mine to make myself notes for a presentations, and when I took acting > classes, I used to write out scripts for myself. Scripts are a lot > easier if you have hard copy pages. I would suggest also keeping your > old Perkins brailler. You can keep it in your dorm room and use it > there. > > On 3/24/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> I was just wondering, because the one David showed me wasn't plastic. >> Brianna, I'd recommend that one to you. I'll E-mail you off list with >> more information about it. Blessings, Joshua >> >> On 3/24/11, Greg Aikens wrote: >>> The one I am referring to is produced by the American Printing house for >>> the >>> Blind and is called the "Next Generation" Perkins or the APH/Perkins >>> brailler. >>> >>> >>> On Mar 23, 2011, at 11:05 PM, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> >>>> Are these "plastic braillers, the ones that were created by David >>>> Pillischer? >>>> Just wondering. >>>> Blessings, Joshua >>>> >>>> On 3/23/11, Greg Aikens wrote: >>>>> The new braillers really don't seem to weigh a lot less than the old >>>>> ones, >>>>> and not having the ability to adjust paper size is a negative in my >>>>> opinion. >>>>> Also, we have had a lot oftrouble at my university with the new ones >>>>> breaking quite frequently. >>>>> >>>>> The one really great feature on the new brailler is the eraser built in >>>>> to >>>>> the embossing head. It works better than I expected. >>>>> >>>>> I would keep the old metal Perkins though. >>>>> >>>>> -Greg >>>>> On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Brianna, >>>>>> Just a word of caution: The plastic Braillers may look nice, but to my >>>>>> knowledge, they can only take one type of paper size. I had the chance >>>>>> to try one of the plastic Braillers, and I honestly didn't notice that >>>>>> much of a difference. Just my opinion. >>>>>> Patrick >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/23/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>>>>>> Thank You >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/23/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>>>> I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to >>>>>>>> braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the >>>>>>>> time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists >>>>>>>> (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I >>>>>>>> didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in >>>>>>>> that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro >>>>>>>> blems than equations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have >>>>>>>> to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for >>>>>>>> math, but other things too. >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hello NABS Members, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have >>>>>>>> instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my >>>>>>>> old >>>>>>>> braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume >>>>>>>> that I >>>>>>>> will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thank You >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Brianna >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: >>>>>>>>> Thanks; I just heard her voice. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>>>>>>> Of Mary Fernandez >>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM >>>>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Dear Ashley, >>>>>>>>> Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, >>>>>>>>> but for all of >>>>>>>>> America. I think that you have done some good things already by >>>>>>>>> modifying >>>>>>>>> your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just >>>>>>>>> wanted to look and >>>>>>>>> feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a >>>>>>>>> wonderfu >>>>>>>>> program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really >>>>>>>>> really simple, and >>>>>>>>> you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the >>>>>>>>> stuff she does >>>>>>>>> is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to >>>>>>>>> www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, >>>>>>>>> and it is >>>>>>>>> definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole >>>>>>>>> hting with a >>>>>>>>> sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you >>>>>>>>> get a good >>>>>>>>> idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I >>>>>>>>> promise it >>>>>>>>> works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have >>>>>>>>> specific >>>>>>>>> quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than >>>>>>>>> happy to help. >>>>>>>>> I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So >>>>>>>>> many of us >>>>>>>>> are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle >>>>>>>>> with looking >>>>>>>>> gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >>>>>>>>>> that I am >>>>>>>>>> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >>>>>>>>>> are the >>>>>>>>>> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >>>>>>>>>> normal for >>>>>>>>>> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >>>>>>>>>> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >>>>>>>>>> She tells >>>>>>>>>> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> exercises in PE anyways. >>>>>>>>>> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >>>>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>>>> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >>>>>>>>>> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >>>>>>>>>> weight >>>>>>>>>> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >>>>>>>>>> until I put >>>>>>>>>> on different clothes. >>>>>>>>>>> BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >>>>>>>>>> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >>>>>>>>>> mom >>>>>>>>>> isn’t satisfied. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>>>>>>>>> tissue >>>>>>>>>> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>>>>>>>>> I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>>>>>>>>> My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>>>> person’s weight over height squared. >>>>>>>>>>> But its not far off. >>>>>>>>>>> I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> does affect your image and health. >>>>>>>>>>> Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >>>>>>>>>> May and to have a better weight overall. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >>>>>>>>>> complex carbs. >>>>>>>>>>> For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>>>>>>>>> fat >>>>>>>>>> milk. >>>>>>>>>>> I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >>>>>>>>>> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>>>>>>>>> I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>>>>>>>>> worse >>>>>>>>>> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>>>>>>>>> So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >>>>>>>>>> several years and do not see many results. I live with >>>>>>>>>> parents and my >>>>>>>>>> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >>>>>>>>>> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> refined kind! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>>>> fit in a size 14 dress! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >>>>>>>>>> less calories? >>>>>>>>>>> I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >>>>>>>>>> soccer. >>>>>>>>>>> I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>>>> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>>>>>>>>> I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >>>>>>>>>> could not follow the fast pace! >>>>>>>>>>> I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >>>>>>>>>> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >>>>>>>>>> the back >>>>>>>>>> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >>>>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>>>> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>>>>>>>>> I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>>>>>>>>> enough. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>>>>>>>>> aerobics! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >>>>>>>>>> worked for you. >>>>>>>>>>> My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>>>>>>>>> admit >>>>>>>>>> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >>>>>>>>>> mid >>>>>>>>>> section is the hardest to lose. >>>>>>>>>>> Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >>>>>>>>>> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>>>>>>>>> Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>>>>>>>>> lose >>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>> I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >>>>>>>>>> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >>>>>>>>>> I’m out at >>>>>>>>>> a restaurant. >>>>>>>>>>> As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >>>>>>>>>> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >>>>>>>>>> tap >>>>>>>>>> water. >>>>>>>>>>> I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >>>>>>>>>> night. >>>>>>>>>>> I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>>>>>>>>> instead. >>>>>>>>>> But fruit never fills me up. >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >>>>>>>>>> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>>>>>>>>> But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> am. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Let me know your ideas. >>>>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>>>>>>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >>>>>>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Mary Fernandez >>>>>>>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory >>>>>>>>> University 2012 P.O. >>>>>>>>> Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. >>>>>>>>> 30322 >>>>>>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, >>>>>>>>> would much rather >>>>>>>>> you weren't doing it." >>>>>>>>> Terry Pratchett >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kaybaycar%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Julie McG > Lindbergh High School class of 2009, participating member in Opera > Theater's Artist in Training Program, and proud graduate of Guiding > Eyes for the Blind > > "For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that > everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal > life." > John 3:16 > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 20:27:16 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 16:27:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: <9CEBCF42-BC74-4B9C-BAA9-FD87EDE71240@gmail.com> References: <9CEBCF42-BC74-4B9C-BAA9-FD87EDE71240@gmail.com> Message-ID: Completely agree with Greg. I heard the NYC Department of Education ordered a bunch and sent them right back cause of technical issues. Plus, if its not that much text, you can always just drag the brailler margin back and forth over the text while holding it down. Or simply cross it out. Jorge On Mar 23, 2011, at 11:24 PM, Greg Aikens wrote: > The new braillers really don't seem to weigh a lot less than the old ones, and not having the ability to adjust paper size is a negative in my opinion. Also, we have had a lot oftrouble at my university with the new ones breaking quite frequently. > > The one really great feature on the new brailler is the eraser built in to the embossing head. It works better than I expected. > > I would keep the old metal Perkins though. > > -Greg > On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: > >> Brianna, >> Just a word of caution: The plastic Braillers may look nice, but to my >> knowledge, they can only take one type of paper size. I had the chance >> to try one of the plastic Braillers, and I honestly didn't notice that >> much of a difference. Just my opinion. >> Patrick >> >> On 3/23/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>> Thank You >>> >>> On 3/23/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>> I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to >>>> braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the >>>> time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists >>>> (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I >>>> didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in >>>> that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro >>>> blems than equations. >>>> >>>> Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have >>>> to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for >>>> math, but other things too. >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM >>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College >>>> >>>> >>>> Hello NABS Members, >>>> >>>> I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have >>>> instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my >>>> old >>>> braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have >>>> a >>>> Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume >>>> that I >>>> will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. >>>> >>>> Thank You >>>> >>>> Brianna >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: >>>>> Thanks; I just heard her voice. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>>> Of Mary Fernandez >>>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>> >>>>> Dear Ashley, >>>>> Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, >>>>> but for all of >>>>> America. I think that you have done some good things already by >>>>> modifying >>>>> your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just >>>>> wanted to look and >>>>> feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a >>>>> wonderfu >>>>> program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really >>>>> really simple, and >>>>> you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the >>>>> stuff she does >>>>> is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to >>>>> www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, >>>>> and it is >>>>> definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole >>>>> hting with a >>>>> sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you >>>>> get a good >>>>> idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I >>>>> promise it >>>>> works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have >>>>> specific >>>>> quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than >>>>> happy to help. >>>>> I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So >>>>> many of us >>>>> are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle >>>>> with looking >>>>> gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F >>>>> >>>>> On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >>>>>> that I am >>>>>> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >>>>>> are the >>>>>> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >>>>>> normal for >>>>>> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >>>>>> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >>>>>> it >>>>>> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >>>>>> She tells >>>>>> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >>>>>> those >>>>>> exercises in PE anyways. >>>>>> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >>>>>> this >>>>>> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >>>>>> discussions >>>>>> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >>>>>> >>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>> From: >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>> >>>>>>> I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >>>>>> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >>>>>> weight >>>>>> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >>>>>> The >>>>>> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >>>>>> some >>>>>> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >>>>>> until I put >>>>>> on different clothes. >>>>>>> BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >>>>>> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >>>>>> mom >>>>>> isn’t satisfied. >>>>>> >>>>>>> I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>>>>> tissue >>>>>> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>>>>> I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>>>>> My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>>>>> is a >>>>>>> person’s weight over height squared. >>>>>>> But its not far off. >>>>>>> I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>>>>> it >>>>>> does affect your image and health. >>>>>>> Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>>>>> with >>>>>> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >>>>>> >>>>>>> I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >>>>>> May and to have a better weight overall. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >>>>>> complex carbs. >>>>>>> For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>>>>> fat >>>>>> milk. >>>>>>> I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >>>>>> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>>>>> I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>>>>> worse >>>>>> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>>>>> So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >>>>>> several years and do not see many results. I live with >>>>>> parents and my >>>>>> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >>>>>> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >>>>>> the >>>>>> refined kind! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>>>>> cannot >>>>>> fit in a size 14 dress! >>>>>> >>>>>>> What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >>>>>> less calories? >>>>>>> I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>>>>> and >>>>>> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>>>>> in >>>>>> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >>>>>> soccer. >>>>>>> I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>>>>> lead >>>>>> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>>>>> I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >>>>>> could not follow the fast pace! >>>>>>> I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>>>>> most >>>>>> accessible. >>>>>> >>>>>>> I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >>>>>> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >>>>>> the back >>>>>> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >>>>>> too >>>>>> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>>>>> I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>>>>> enough. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>>>>> aerobics! >>>>>> >>>>>>> Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >>>>>> worked for you. >>>>>>> My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>>>>> admit >>>>>> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >>>>>> mid >>>>>> section is the hardest to lose. >>>>>>> Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >>>>>> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>>>>> Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>>>>> lose >>>>>> it. >>>>>>> I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >>>>>> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >>>>>> I’m out at >>>>>> a restaurant. >>>>>>> As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >>>>>> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >>>>>> tap >>>>>> water. >>>>>>> I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>>>>> I >>>>>> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >>>>>> night. >>>>>>> I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>>>>> instead. >>>>>> But fruit never fills me up. >>>>>>> Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >>>>>> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>>>>> But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>>>>> I >>>>>> am. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Let me know your ideas. >>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Mary Fernandez >>>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory >>>>> University 2012 P.O. >>>>> Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. >>>>> 30322 >>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>>> >>>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, >>>>> would much rather >>>>> you weren't doing it." >>>>> Terry Pratchett >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>> info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>> for nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brianna Scerenscko >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu Mar 24 20:56:18 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 15:56:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: References: <9CEBCF42-BC74-4B9C-BAA9-FD87EDE71240@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gregg Aikins said something about the new Braillers weighing about the same as the other ones. The beauty of David Pillischer's Brailler, is that it's lightweight. I know this, because he showed it to me at the convention, last year. It also doesn't make that loud clickity-clack noise, that always drove my sighted classmates crazy. As a matter of fact, it drove me crazy to. Blessings, Joshua On 3/24/11, Jorge Paez wrote: > Completely agree with Greg. > > I heard the NYC Department of Education ordered a bunch and sent them right > back cause of technical issues. > > Plus, if its not that much text, > you can always just drag the brailler margin back and forth over the text > while holding it down. > Or simply cross it out. > Jorge > > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 11:24 PM, Greg Aikens wrote: > >> The new braillers really don't seem to weigh a lot less than the old ones, >> and not having the ability to adjust paper size is a negative in my >> opinion. Also, we have had a lot oftrouble at my university with the new >> ones breaking quite frequently. >> >> The one really great feature on the new brailler is the eraser built in to >> the embossing head. It works better than I expected. >> >> I would keep the old metal Perkins though. >> >> -Greg >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: >> >>> Brianna, >>> Just a word of caution: The plastic Braillers may look nice, but to my >>> knowledge, they can only take one type of paper size. I had the chance >>> to try one of the plastic Braillers, and I honestly didn't notice that >>> much of a difference. Just my opinion. >>> Patrick >>> >>> On 3/23/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>>> Thank You >>>> >>>> On 3/23/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>> I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to >>>>> braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the >>>>> time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists >>>>> (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I >>>>> didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in >>>>> that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro >>>>> blems than equations. >>>>> >>>>> Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have >>>>> to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for >>>>> math, but other things too. >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM >>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hello NABS Members, >>>>> >>>>> I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have >>>>> instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my >>>>> old >>>>> braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have >>>>> a >>>>> Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume >>>>> that I >>>>> will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. >>>>> >>>>> Thank You >>>>> >>>>> Brianna >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: >>>>>> Thanks; I just heard her voice. >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>>>> Of Mary Fernandez >>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM >>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>> >>>>>> Dear Ashley, >>>>>> Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, >>>>>> but for all of >>>>>> America. I think that you have done some good things already by >>>>>> modifying >>>>>> your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just >>>>>> wanted to look and >>>>>> feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a >>>>>> wonderfu >>>>>> program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really >>>>>> really simple, and >>>>>> you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the >>>>>> stuff she does >>>>>> is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to >>>>>> www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, >>>>>> and it is >>>>>> definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole >>>>>> hting with a >>>>>> sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you >>>>>> get a good >>>>>> idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I >>>>>> promise it >>>>>> works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have >>>>>> specific >>>>>> quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than >>>>>> happy to help. >>>>>> I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So >>>>>> many of us >>>>>> are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle >>>>>> with looking >>>>>> gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >>>>>>> that I am >>>>>>> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >>>>>>> are the >>>>>>> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >>>>>>> normal for >>>>>>> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >>>>>>> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >>>>>>> She tells >>>>>>> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> exercises in PE anyways. >>>>>>> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >>>>>>> this >>>>>>> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >>>>>>> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >>>>>>> weight >>>>>>> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >>>>>>> The >>>>>>> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >>>>>>> until I put >>>>>>> on different clothes. >>>>>>>> BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >>>>>>> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >>>>>>> mom >>>>>>> isn’t satisfied. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>>>>>> tissue >>>>>>> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>>>>>> I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>>>>>> My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>> person’s weight over height squared. >>>>>>>> But its not far off. >>>>>>>> I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>> does affect your image and health. >>>>>>>> Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>>>>>> with >>>>>>> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >>>>>>> May and to have a better weight overall. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >>>>>>> complex carbs. >>>>>>>> For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>>>>>> fat >>>>>>> milk. >>>>>>>> I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >>>>>>> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>>>>>> I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>>>>>> worse >>>>>>> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>>>>>> So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >>>>>>> several years and do not see many results. I live with >>>>>>> parents and my >>>>>>> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >>>>>>> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> refined kind! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>> fit in a size 14 dress! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >>>>>>> less calories? >>>>>>>> I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>>>>>> and >>>>>>> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >>>>>>> soccer. >>>>>>>> I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>>>>>> I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >>>>>>> could not follow the fast pace! >>>>>>>> I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>>>>>> most >>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >>>>>>> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >>>>>>> the back >>>>>>> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >>>>>>> too >>>>>>> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>>>>>> I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>>>>>> enough. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>>>>>> aerobics! >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >>>>>>> worked for you. >>>>>>>> My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>>>>>> admit >>>>>>> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >>>>>>> mid >>>>>>> section is the hardest to lose. >>>>>>>> Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >>>>>>> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>>>>>> Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>>>>>> lose >>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>> I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >>>>>>> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >>>>>>> I’m out at >>>>>>> a restaurant. >>>>>>>> As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >>>>>>> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >>>>>>> tap >>>>>>> water. >>>>>>>> I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >>>>>>> night. >>>>>>>> I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>>>>>> instead. >>>>>>> But fruit never fills me up. >>>>>>>> Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >>>>>>> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>>>>>> But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>> am. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Let me know your ideas. >>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info >>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>>>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >>>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Mary Fernandez >>>>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory >>>>>> University 2012 P.O. >>>>>> Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. >>>>>> 30322 >>>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>>>> >>>>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, >>>>>> would much rather >>>>>> you weren't doing it." >>>>>> Terry Pratchett >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>> info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bfs1206 at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 21:20:11 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 17:20:11 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College In-Reply-To: References: <9CEBCF42-BC74-4B9C-BAA9-FD87EDE71240@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thank you everyone. On 3/24/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Gregg Aikins said something about the new Braillers weighing about the > same as the other ones. The beauty of David Pillischer's Brailler, is > that it's lightweight. I know this, because he showed it to me at the > convention, last year. It also doesn't make that loud clickity-clack > noise, that always drove my sighted classmates crazy. > As a matter of fact, it drove me crazy to. > Blessings, Joshua > > On 3/24/11, Jorge Paez wrote: >> Completely agree with Greg. >> >> I heard the NYC Department of Education ordered a bunch and sent them >> right >> back cause of technical issues. >> >> Plus, if its not that much text, >> you can always just drag the brailler margin back and forth over the text >> while holding it down. >> Or simply cross it out. >> Jorge >> >> >> On Mar 23, 2011, at 11:24 PM, Greg Aikens wrote: >> >>> The new braillers really don't seem to weigh a lot less than the old >>> ones, >>> and not having the ability to adjust paper size is a negative in my >>> opinion. Also, we have had a lot oftrouble at my university with the new >>> ones breaking quite frequently. >>> >>> The one really great feature on the new brailler is the eraser built in >>> to >>> the embossing head. It works better than I expected. >>> >>> I would keep the old metal Perkins though. >>> >>> -Greg >>> On Mar 23, 2011, at 8:03 PM, Patrick Molloy wrote: >>> >>>> Brianna, >>>> Just a word of caution: The plastic Braillers may look nice, but to my >>>> knowledge, they can only take one type of paper size. I had the chance >>>> to try one of the plastic Braillers, and I honestly didn't notice that >>>> much of a difference. Just my opinion. >>>> Patrick >>>> >>>> On 3/23/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>>>> Thank You >>>>> >>>>> On 3/23/11, Laura Glowacki wrote: >>>>>> I got my own brailler my freshman year of college. I used it to >>>>>> braille out a lot of music things as I was a music major at the >>>>>> time. I also used it to label things, write grocery lists >>>>>> (before I had an accessible phone with a notes feature) etc. I >>>>>> didn't use it for the one math course I took, but I was lucky in >>>>>> that respect I imagine. It was also more graphic picture pro >>>>>> blems than equations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Honestly, unless you know about the math requirements you'll have >>>>>> to fulfill, I would say a brailler would be useful. Not just for >>>>>> math, but other things too. >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2011 4:37 PM >>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] Using A Brailler In College >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hello NABS Members, >>>>>> >>>>>> I was going to justify one of the new, plastic braillers to have >>>>>> instead of my old one because of portability; however, one of my >>>>>> old >>>>>> braille instructores said that I won't need a brailler if I have >>>>>> a >>>>>> Braille Note. But what about using it for math? I would assume >>>>>> that I >>>>>> will need it for math. Any imput would be helpfull. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank You >>>>>> >>>>>> Brianna >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/23/11, Karla Gilbride wrote: >>>>>>> Thanks; I just heard her voice. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf >>>>>>> Of Mary Fernandez >>>>>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2011 8:44 PM >>>>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Dear Ashley, >>>>>>> Don't despair! So weight is an issue not just for the blind, >>>>>>> but for all of >>>>>>> America. I think that you have done some good things already by >>>>>>> modifying >>>>>>> your diet. Last year, I was a bridesmaid, and I also just >>>>>>> wanted to look and >>>>>>> feel better, I was sie 10 and went down to a size six with a >>>>>>> wonderfu >>>>>>> program called slim in six. It is a dvd, but it is really >>>>>>> really simple, and >>>>>>> you will actually learn the routine pretty well. Most of the >>>>>>> stuff she does >>>>>>> is squats, and launges, things we all know how to do. Go to >>>>>>> www.beachbody.com and try it. It is fairly affordable I think, >>>>>>> and it is >>>>>>> definiely worth the investment. I would say to do the whole >>>>>>> hting with a >>>>>>> sighted friend, or perhaps your mom the first time so that you >>>>>>> get a good >>>>>>> idea of what she's doing. Then, you can do it on your own. I >>>>>>> promise it >>>>>>> works, it's easy, and it's absolutely worth it. If you have >>>>>>> specific >>>>>>> quetions about it, please let me know and I'll be more than >>>>>>> happy to help. >>>>>>> I'm glad that you are taking the initiative to be healthier. So >>>>>>> many of us >>>>>>> are not blessed with an amazing metabolism and have to struggle >>>>>>> with looking >>>>>>> gorgeous and feeling great. So good luck sincerely, Mary F >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/21/11, humberto wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is kind of similar to what my Mom tells me sometimes, >>>>>>>> that I am >>>>>>>> getting bigger on the area of the abs. I'm wondering, what >>>>>>>> are the >>>>>>>> most ideal looks for men though because I am a male? Is it >>>>>>>> normal for >>>>>>>> a young man to have the "Apple-shape" kind of thing where your >>>>>>>> abdominal are growing too much. I do PE at school, and to me >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> works; I'm not sure that my Mom thinks that is not working. >>>>>>>> She tells >>>>>>>> me to do sit-ups and push-ups but I don't do it because I do >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> exercises in PE anyways. >>>>>>>> any thoughts? By the way, I understand this is off-topic, but, >>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>> can result in a discussion that can lead to great other >>>>>>>> discussions >>>>>>>> about blindness and appearance among sighted public. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>>>>> From: >>>>>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Date sent: Mon, 21 Mar 2011 22:47:00 -0400 >>>>>>>>> Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in >>>>>>>> the recent years; my mother got upset about this once I gained >>>>>>>> weight >>>>>>>> upon going to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. >>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>> freshman 15 is true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain >>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>> weight. It was a slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it >>>>>>>> until I put >>>>>>>> on different clothes. >>>>>>>>> BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount >>>>>>>> university, MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my >>>>>>>> mom >>>>>>>> isn’t satisfied. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat >>>>>>>>> tissue >>>>>>>> is in my middle, the abdominal area. >>>>>>>>> I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. >>>>>>>>> My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI >>>>>>>>> is a >>>>>>>>> person’s weight over height squared. >>>>>>>>> But its not far off. >>>>>>>>> I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since >>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> does affect your image and health. >>>>>>>>> Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>> more health risks. I took a health class in college. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early >>>>>>>> May and to have a better weight overall. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some >>>>>>>> complex carbs. >>>>>>>>> For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no >>>>>>>>> fat >>>>>>>> milk. >>>>>>>>> I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do >>>>>>>> not eat fried food or drink sodas. >>>>>>>>> I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The >>>>>>>>> worse >>>>>>>> food I eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. >>>>>>>>> So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for >>>>>>>> several years and do not see many results. I live with >>>>>>>> parents and my >>>>>>>> mother has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. >>>>>>>> If I have carbs, they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> refined kind! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I >>>>>>>>> cannot >>>>>>>> fit in a size 14 dress! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on >>>>>>>> less calories? >>>>>>>>> I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>> crave something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> as much games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or >>>>>>>> soccer. >>>>>>>>> I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor >>>>>>>>> lead >>>>>>>> classes. I have not found them too accomodating. >>>>>>>>> I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I >>>>>>>> could not follow the fast pace! >>>>>>>>> I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the >>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to >>>>>>>> workout at home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in >>>>>>>> the back >>>>>>>> basement. You cannot incline it and the environment just is >>>>>>>> too >>>>>>>> stagnant or something being in the basement! >>>>>>>>> I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not >>>>>>>>> enough. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I wish someone would make a described workout video for >>>>>>>>> aerobics! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what >>>>>>>> worked for you. >>>>>>>>> My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t >>>>>>>>> admit >>>>>>>> weight is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the >>>>>>>> mid >>>>>>>> section is the hardest to lose. >>>>>>>>> Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place >>>>>>>> you want to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! >>>>>>>>> Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to >>>>>>>>> lose >>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>> I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too >>>>>>>> many sodas and juices when I never drink them except when >>>>>>>> I’m out at >>>>>>>> a restaurant. >>>>>>>>> As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. >>>>>>>> Sometimes I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain >>>>>>>> tap >>>>>>>> water. >>>>>>>>> I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> have some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at >>>>>>>> night. >>>>>>>>> I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack >>>>>>>>> instead. >>>>>>>> But fruit never fills me up. >>>>>>>>> Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat >>>>>>>> peanuter/creakers. I don’t know. >>>>>>>>> But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> am. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Let me know your ideas. >>>>>>>>> Ashley >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>>> info >>>>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>>>>>>> 5369%40netzero.net >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>>> info for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40 >>>>>>>> gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Mary Fernandez >>>>>>> President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory >>>>>>> University 2012 P.O. >>>>>>> Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. >>>>>>> 30322 >>>>>>> Phone: 732-857-7004 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, >>>>>>> would much rather >>>>>>> you weren't doing it." >>>>>>> Terry Pratchett >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kgilbride%40dralegal.org >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account >>>>>>> info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>> for nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/orangebutterfly87%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ptrck.molloy%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/computertechjorgepaez%40gmail.com >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > -- Brianna Scerenscko From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Thu Mar 24 21:40:16 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 16:40:16 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] New Brailler Message-ID: Hi, it's Joshua Lester. I just found out that the new Brailler from Mr. Pillischer isn't available. Blessings, Joshua From freespirit328 at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 00:53:43 2011 From: freespirit328 at gmail.com (Jennifer Aberdeen) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 20:53:43 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Computer Science Courses Message-ID: Hi all, I've been thinking about trying to get into Rhode Island College (I'll have to take my SATS). I'm hoping this college has more accommodations available than the community college I attended for a while. I'm wondering if there is anyone here who got a degree in computer science? What kinds of obstacles did you have to overcome? Jen ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! www.youravon.com/jaberdeen Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative freespirit328 at gmail.com 401-644-5607 From horchemg at gary-springfield-mo.net Fri Mar 25 03:01:30 2011 From: horchemg at gary-springfield-mo.net (Horchem Gary) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 22:01:30 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] 49th Annual NFB of Missouri State Convention to be streamed live from St. Joseph MO Message-ID: The 49th annual NFB of Missouri state convention will be streamed live from St. Joseph MO March 26th and 27th the schedule is as follows: Saturday morning session from 8:45 AM to 12:00 PM Saturday afternoon session from 1:30 PM to 5:00 PM The banquet from 6:30 PM to 9:00 PM Sunday morning session from 8:30 AM to 12:00 PM The URL for the live stream is http://gary-springfield-mo.net/nfbmostream.html when you get on the page the stream will start automatically if you are using Windows and Internet Explorer 7 or higher if you are using a MAC or would like to use an IPOD Touch or your IPhone following the instructions on the page. Gary Horchem NFBMO Webmaster From slabarre at labarrelaw.com Fri Mar 25 03:12:48 2011 From: slabarre at labarrelaw.com (Scott C. LaBarre) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2011 22:12:48 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NABL BREAKING NEWS REGARDING TENBROEK SYMPOSIUM Message-ID: Greetings: As many of you know, we are conducting the Fourth Jacobus tenBroek Law Symposium on April 14th and 15th in Baltimore. In addition, I am pleased to announce that just today Thomson-Reuters agreed to help cosponsor this year's Symposium and also offer a special session to blind/visually impaired attorneys addressing how to manage WestLaw and their new product, WestLaw Next, with assistive technology. This special session will take place Friday afternoon, April 15th and will qualify for CLE credits in most jurisdictions. For those registering for the tenBroek Symposium, this extra session along with lunch will cost an additional $25.00. For those who wish to attend this session only, the cost is $50.00. Please contact me at the information below to register for the extra session. I apologize for the late announcement, but Thomson-West was not able to confirm until today. In the next few days, I will be gathering more details and sending them around. Please feel free to send this announcement to all appropriate sources. Please see an announcement regarding the Symposium generally below my signature. Scott C. LaBarre, Esq. President, NABL Registration Deadline is April 7th! Don't Miss the Opportunity to hear Assistant Secretary of Education for Civil Rights Russlynn Ali, Assistant Secretary of Labor for Disability Employment Policy Kathleen Martinez, and EEOC Commissioner Chai Feldblum at the 2011 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium Bridging the Gap between the Disability Rights Movement and Other Civil Rights Movements April 14-15, 2011 at the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute Baltimore, Maryland The 2011 Jacobus tenBroek Disability Law Symposium will consist of plenary sessions and workshops facilitated by distinguished law professors, practitioners, and advocates who will discuss issues such as how to translate what worked for the civil rights movements to the disability rights movement, how the disability community can learn to speak with one voice while respecting and maintaining its diversity, and how to erase the misconception that disability rights is not a civil rights issue. 2011 plenary session presenters: * Russlynn Ali, Assistant Secretary, U.S. Department of Education Office for Civil Rights * Ruth Colker, Distinguished University Professor and Heck Faust Memorial Chair in Constitutional Law, Ohio State University Moritz College of Law * Robert Dinerstein, Professor of Law, American University Washington College of Law * Wade Henderson, President and CEO, The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights * Scott C. LaBarre, Esquire, LaBarre Law Offices P.C. * Kathleen Martinez, Assistant Secretary, Department of Labor, Office of Disability Employment Policy * Marc Maurer, President, National Federation of the Blind * Shannon Price Minter, Legal Director, National Center for Lesbian Rights * Larry Paradis, Executive Director, Disability Rights Advocates * Howard Rosenblum, Chief Executive Officer (Designate), National Association of the Deaf * Lynn Hecht Schafran, Senior Vice President and Director, National Judicial Education Program, Legal Momentum 2011 workshop facilitators: * Mazen Basrawi, Counsel to the Assistant Attorney General, U.S. Department of Justice, Civil Rights Division * Michael W. Bien, Managing Partner, Rosen, Bien & Galvan LLP * Peter Blanck, University Professor and Chair, The Burton Blatt Institute * Ella Callow, Legal Program Director, The National Center for Parents with Disabilities and their Families * Kevin Cremin, Director of Disability and Public Benefits Law, Legal Services NYC * Brian East, Senior Attorney, Advocacy, Inc. * Leslie Ellis, Jury Consultant, TrialGraphix * Donald Freedman, Partner, Rosenberg, Freedman & Goldstein LLP * Douglas Kruse, Director, PhD program in Labor Relations and Human Resources, Rutgers University School of Management and Labor Relations * Janet Lord, Senior Partner, BlueLaw International * Laura Rovner, Associate Professor of Law, University of Denver Sturm College of Law * Jo Anne Simon, Esquire * Michael Waterstone, J. Howard Ziemann Fellow and Professor of Law, Loyola Law School The theme keynote speaker will be Commissioner Chai Feldblum, United States Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. Documentation for CLE credits will be provided. Registration fee: $175 Student registration fee: $25 A limited number of scholarships to cover the registration fee will be available to individuals with demonstrated financial need. To learn more about the symposium and symposium sponsorship opportunities, view the agenda, and register online, please visit http://www.nfb.org/nfb/Law_Symposium.asp. You may also download from this Web site a registration form to mail or fax. Hotel information is also available on the symposium Web site. For additional information, contact: Lou Ann Blake, JD Law Symposium Coordinator Jacobus tenBroek Library Jernigan Institute NATIONAL FEDERATION OF THE BLIND 200 East Wells Street at Jernigan Place Baltimore, Maryland 21230 Telephone: 410-659-9314, ext. 2221 E-mail: lblake at nfb.org LaBarre Law Offices P.C. 1660 South Albion Street, Ste. 918 Denver, Colorado 80222 303 504-5979 (voice) 303 757-3640 (fax) slabarre at labarrelaw.com (e-mail) www.labarrelaw.com (website) CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message may contain confidential and privileged information. If you are not the designated recipient, you may not read, copy, distribute or retain this message. If you received this message in error, please notify the sender at 303) 504-5979 or slabarre at labarrelaw.com, and destroy and delete it from your system. This message and any attachments are covered by the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. §§ 2510-2521. From spangler.robert at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 23:16:18 2011 From: spangler.robert at gmail.com (Robert Spangler) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 19:16:18 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Law School Message-ID: Hello all, I am thinking of going to law school next year. Are there any tips someone can give me that would help me perform well as a blind student in law school? Also, I am curious to know if anyone on here has worked with GIS (Geographic Information System) software or any other software like TransCAD that helps plan trafic/public transit routes? Thanks, Robby -- Robert Spangler The University of Toledo Student Senate - SSIPS Committee Student Government Cabinet - Advanced Team Mentoring Collaborative - Student Mentor From amylsabo at comcast.net Sat Mar 26 04:11:31 2011 From: amylsabo at comcast.net (Amy Sabo) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 04:11:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Computer Science Courses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <140726779.2839404.1301112691845.JavaMail.root@sz0144a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> hello jen and all, to answer some of your questions since i was a computer science major at one time when i attended community college in michigan. as for doing my classes for computer science i used a lab assistant with someone who i knew in the class and, i used that same person for all of the labs that i did for that class. i also used a lab assistant that one of my professors who knew of who had taken the class before and, could assist me on the visual aspects of the class. i also used them as my reader as well too! i hope this is helpful to you. take care and, i will talk to you soon. hugs, from amy ----- Original Message ----- From: Jennifer Aberdeen To: NABS-L Sent: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 00:53:43 -0000 (UTC) Subject: [nabs-l] Computer Science Courses Hi all, I've been thinking about trying to get into Rhode Island College (I'll have to take my SATS). I'm hoping this college has more accommodations available than the community college I attended for a while. I'm wondering if there is anyone here who got a degree in computer science? What kinds of obstacles did you have to overcome? Jen ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! www.youravon.com/jaberdeen Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative freespirit328 at gmail.com 401-644-5607 _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/amylsabo%40comcast.net From dandrews at visi.com Sat Mar 26 04:56:04 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 23:56:04 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Michigan Project Message-ID: I have been asked to circulate this announcement. Dave Fellow Federationists, the Michigan Affiliate has embarked on an exciting adventure. We have begun a web-based business/fundraiser called Natures Finest Bounty) check out the initials) we are presently featuring our increasingly popular and beloved coffee, including the ever popular Michigan Cherry. A sample of our line includes such favorites as Mary’s Favorite – Columbia supremo, La Grande Traverse – a delicious French roast, sooper Dooper Yooper –Sumatra Dark, Manitou Blueberry, and Detroit Decaffe – French roast and Keweenaw hazelnut. Go to our website to see all of our wonderful offerings at www.naturesfinestbounty.com often for specials and new offerings. Coffee is roasted the same week that you order it, so its freshness is second-to-none. You may purchase the coffee at www.naturesfinestbounty.com with a credit card on our accessible web site. You will enjoy seeing our web page and checking out all of our coffee offerings. In addition to our coffee, we intend to sell items made by blind people. Such items include crafts, jams, jellies and other preserves, Soap, candy and other quality items made and sold by blind entrepreneurs. We will happily carry your music or writing if you are an artist or writer. We want a digital photo and a returnable sample of your work to assure that our items are of a quality that meets our high standards and expectations of ourselves as blind people. So, if you are craving a great cup of coffee go to www.naturesfinest bounty.com. If you want more information or wish to sell your wares on our website, please contact Mary Wurtzel: marywurtzel at att.net, or call 517-485-0326. We look forward to working together for mutual prosperity. From horchemg at gary-springfield-mo.net Sat Mar 26 07:53:13 2011 From: horchemg at gary-springfield-mo.net (Horchem Gary) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 02:53:13 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NFBMO State Convention live streaming have changed due to power outage in south Springfield MO Message-ID: Due to a car VS power pole accident the links for the 49th annual NFB Of Missouri have changed: Windows Media Player: http://service.ultrastreams.us/tunein.php/horchem/playlist.asx Apple QuickTime Player: http://service.ultrastreams.us/tunein.php/horchem/playlist.qtl there's no timetable for win power will be restored the truck hit a pole carrying high transmission lines thank you. Gary Horchem NFBMO Webmaster From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 15:56:22 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 11:56:22 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Receiving Social Seccurity Message-ID: Hello NABS Members, My name is Brianna. I applyed for SSI and I just got a letter that said that I am not elegible, but I know I am. My parents are contacting a friend of a friend who helped my friend get it and they are thinking of getting a lawyer; but I was just wondering, what do I have to do to receive SSI? Hope this makes any sense. Thank You Brianna On 3/26/11, Horchem Gary wrote: > Due to a car VS power pole accident the links for the 49th a NFB > Of Missouri have changed: > > Windows Media Player: > http://service.ultrastreams.us/tunein.php/horchem/playlist.asx > > Apple QuickTime Player: > http://service.ultrastreams.us/tunein.php/horchem/playlist.qtl > > there's no timetable for win power will be restored the truck hit a > pole carrying high transmission lines thank you. > > Gary Horchem > NFBMO Webmaster > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > -- Brianna Scerenscko From dianefilipe at peoplepc.com Sat Mar 26 16:17:35 2011 From: dianefilipe at peoplepc.com (Diane) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 10:17:35 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Receiving Social Seccurity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32001BBC1B844C5296163369822DAADE@DianePC> Hey Brianna! Almost everyone gets rejected the first time! It's just part of the game. You really do need to get an attorney. May I recommend Mr. Scott La Barre here in Colorado? He has been extremely successful for many of us! You don't need to worry about paying an attorney. Their fees are already set aside from your ssdi. Take good care! Diane ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brianna Scerenscko" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 9:56 AM Subject: [nabs-l] Receiving Social Seccurity > Hello NABS Members, > > My name is Brianna. > I applyed for SSI and I just got a letter that said that I am not > elegible, but I know I am. My parents are contacting a friend of a > friend who helped my friend get it and they are thinking of getting a > lawyer; but I was just wondering, what do I have to do to receive SSI? > Hope this makes any sense. > Thank You > Brianna > > > On 3/26/11, Horchem Gary wrote: >> Due to a car VS power pole accident the links for the 49th a NFB >> Of Missouri have changed: >> >> Windows Media Player: >> http://service.ultrastreams.us/tunein.php/horchem/playlist.asx >> >> Apple QuickTime Player: >> http://service.ultrastreams.us/tunein.php/horchem/playlist.qtl >> >> there's no timetable for win power will be restored the truck hit a >> pole carrying high transmission lines thank you. >> >> Gary Horchem >> NFBMO Webmaster >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brianna Scerenscko > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dianefilipe%40peoplepc.com From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 17:38:19 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 13:38:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Receiving Social Seccurity In-Reply-To: <32001BBC1B844C5296163369822DAADE@DianePC> References: <32001BBC1B844C5296163369822DAADE@DianePC> Message-ID: What do we do? Do we reapply? A friend of mine from Florida had help from someone in getting SSI and gave us his name, but we don't know if he's still around; we haven't called him yet. If he isn't, can you give me Scott's contact information? I met him when I was a summer student at the CCB; he's cool. Thank You On 3/26/11, Diane wrote: > Hey Brianna! > Almost everyone gets rejected the first time! It's just part of the game. > You really do need to get an attorney. May I recommend Mr. Scott La Barre > here in Colorado? He has been extremely successful for many of us! > You don't need to worry about paying an attorney. Their fees are already > set aside from your ssdi. > Take good care! > Diane > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brianna Scerenscko" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Cc: > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 9:56 AM > Subject: [nabs-l] Receiving Social Seccurity > > >> Hello NABS Members, >> >> My name is Brianna. >> I applyed for SSI and I just got a letter that said that I am not >> elegible, but I know I am. My parents are contacting a friend of a >> friend who helped my friend get it and they are thinking of getting a >> lawyer; but I was just wondering, what do I have to do to receive SSI? >> Hope this makes any sense. >> Thank You >> Brianna >> >> >> On 3/26/11, Horchem Gary wrote: >>> Due to a car VS power pole accident the links for the 49th a NFB >>> Of Missouri have changed: >>> >>> Windows Media Player: >>> http://service.ultrastreams.us/tunein.php/horchem/playlist.asx >>> >>> Apple QuickTime Player: >>> http://service.ultrastreams.us/tunein.php/horchem/playlist.qtl >>> >>> there's no timetable for win power will be restored the truck hit a >>> pole carrying high transmission lines thank you. >>> >>> Gary Horchem >>> NFBMO Webmaster >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brianna Scerenscko >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/dianefilipe%40peoplepc.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > -- Brianna Scerenscko From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 20:50:09 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 16:50:09 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] computer science - looking for help on a website project Message-ID: <7E3B024E-57DC-4FC2-8F1D-EB17B9A41515@gmail.com> Hi guys: I know this might not be the mailing list but I'm looking for someone who is knowledgeable in the areas of HTML, CSC, and/or PHP files to help me with a web site design task. Anyone who's interested and can code at least CSS and HTML (Or CSS and PHP) email me offline and we can talk. Jorge From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 21:48:03 2011 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 17:48:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People Message-ID: Hi All! I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on Facebook. As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant that I like to go to on the weekends. I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or something like that. I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one of them works at the radio station with me. I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last night. I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in the dining hall at the college she attends. Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always wait until you are invited? How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you in a negative mood/frame of mind? The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make things easier because then I would have never known they were there in the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of myself as number one. Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all anyone can give is their opinion. Kerri From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sat Mar 26 21:57:18 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 16:57:18 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. Thanks, Joshua On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: > Hi All! > > I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing > opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on > Facebook. > > As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant > that I like to go to on the weekends. > > I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am > sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say > "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or > something like that. > > I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say > goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I > saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one > of them works at the radio station with me. > > I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. > I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch > my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, > always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and > back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a > lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed > back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I > was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater > vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore > for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last > night. > > > I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also > totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in > the dining hall at the college she attends. > > Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? > > In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude > to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always > wait until you are invited? > > How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you > in a negative mood/frame of mind? > > The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and > then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it > really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at > least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and > not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make > things easier because then I would have never known they were there in > the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if > nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of > myself as number one. > > Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all > anyone can give is their opinion. > > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 22:02:33 2011 From: computertechjorgepaez at gmail.com (Jorge Paez) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 18:02:33 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] computer science - looking for help on a website project Message-ID: <9C0D29AA-1DA2-471F-B463-09F387F09BEF@gmail.com> Hi guys: I know this might not be the mailing list but I'm looking for someone who is knowledgeable in the areas of HTML, CSC, and/or PHP files to help me with a web site design task. Anyone who's interested and can code at least CSS and HTML (Or CSS and PHP) email me offline and we can talk. Jorge From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 22:33:53 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 18:33:53 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have been in that same situation both at school and in other social gathering places. I'm not sure how to handle it; whenever it happens to me, I usually feel bad for a few seconds, and then think "oh well, their loss". LOL I honestly think my parents feel worse about it than I do. On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the > same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but > they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off > topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a > page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. > Thanks, Joshua > > On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> Hi All! >> >> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >> Facebook. >> >> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >> that I like to go to on the weekends. >> >> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >> something like that. >> >> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I >> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one >> of them works at the radio station with me. >> >> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. >> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch >> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a >> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >> night. >> >> >> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in >> the dining hall at the college she attends. >> >> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >> >> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >> wait until you are invited? >> >> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you >> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >> >> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >> things easier because then I would have never known they were there in >> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >> myself as number one. >> >> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all >> anyone can give is their opinion. >> >> Kerri >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > -- Brianna Scerenscko From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 22:37:21 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 18:37:21 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't mean to sound consided or anything. :) On 3/26/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: > I have been in that same situation both at school and in other social > gathering places. I'm not sure how to handle it; whenever it happens > to me, I usually feel bad for a few seconds, and then think "oh well, > their loss". LOL I honestly think my parents feel worse about it than > I do. > > On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>> Hi All! >>> >>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >>> Facebook. >>> >>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >>> >>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>> something like that. >>> >>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I >>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one >>> of them works at the radio station with me. >>> >>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. >>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch >>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a >>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >>> night. >>> >>> >>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in >>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >>> >>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >>> >>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>> wait until you are invited? >>> >>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you >>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >>> >>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there in >>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>> myself as number one. >>> >>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all >>> anyone can give is their opinion. >>> >>> Kerri >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brianna Scerenscko > -- Brianna Scerenscko From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 22:51:04 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 16:51:04 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kerry, It's happened to me before, I think that's something a lot of blind people can relate to. For me especially in High School it was the hardest cause I had friends but my "group" from Junior High and the first part of high school kinda fell apart so my friends were kinda all over the place and it was hard. That doesn't happen as much to me anymore, but that's probably me more than anything. I'm fine taking someone's arm, especially in a restaurant or crowded kind of place. And...the way I see it, it's better to get rides with people and only pay for cabs when you have to or when you're looking to get away and not be with friends. I bum rides off of people all the time, especially if the person's going the same place I am. But that's just me. Honestly, the more I've just been proactive and asked if I could sit with friends when I find them in my college food court, or invite people to go to games with me, or whatever, the more success I've had. I honestly think a lot of the confusion comes from sighted people not knowing how to handle a blind person who likes going out and doing stuff on his/her own...people take for granted how nice independence is. It's like...I don't think most sighted people would feel liberated going to a college basketball game by themselves, going to a bar/restaurant alone, independently going to a movie theater and buying a drink, that sort of thing. But for us blind people, if we're still learning those skills and gaining confidence with independent travel, we like going places by ourselves to show ourselves we can. At least I do. And I think lots of times, sighted people don't really get that. That being said, I think it's also important to remember we're not that different from our sighted friends. And just because they may not understand why we feel the need to sometimes go places totally by ourselves, that doesn't mean they can't be our friends. But I do think it's ok to go places with sighted friends. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if those people who came and talked to you thought you wanted to be alone because you weren't with a group of people. Independence is great...but I think real independence is the freedom to go where you want to go, hang out with who you want to hang out with, even when that means you take someone's arm or find a ride somewhere. Heck...some of my good friends now were people who came up to me, thought I was lost, and walked with me for a while, or helped me find the line I wanted in the food court, or find a room in a building, or whatever. Even when sometimes I could've done it on my own. So in conclusion, don't be afraid to ask people if you can join them. Don't be afraid to go places with sighted people, who you trust, even if that means taking an arm or letting them drive. And most of all, don't give up. Most sighted people are kind, friendly and courteous. I think you'll find that, once they know you for a while and accept you, blindness will become less and less of an issue. It won't go away completely, but it doesn't have to be a social barrier. So...I'd just say trust in yourself and don't be afraid to take help sometimes. Because, a lot of the time, a sighted person trying to help you is wanting a friend as much as you are...I've met some of my best friends that way. Good luck, Kirt On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: > Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the > same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but > they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off > topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a > page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. > Thanks, Joshua > > On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> Hi All! >> >> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >> Facebook. >> >> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >> that I like to go to on the weekends. >> >> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >> something like that. >> >> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I >> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one >> of them works at the radio station with me. >> >> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. >> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch >> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a >> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >> night. >> >> >> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in >> the dining hall at the college she attends. >> >> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >> >> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >> wait until you are invited? >> >> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you >> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >> >> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >> things easier because then I would have never known they were there in >> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >> myself as number one. >> >> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all >> anyone can give is their opinion. >> >> Kerri >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From hope.paulos at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 22:58:55 2011 From: hope.paulos at gmail.com (Hope Paulos) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 18:58:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People References: Message-ID: Hi Kerri. I don't know if I'd ask them if you could join their group. They might just do it out of politeness and feel obligated to let you join. You said your family runs a bar. Why not, instead of sitting at a table alone, go to the bar where there are a lot more people sitting closer together? Unfortunately, that's all I can suggest. I'm sorry. Hope and guide dog, Beignet ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brianna Scerenscko" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:37 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >I don't mean to sound consided or anything. :) > > On 3/26/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >> I have been in that same situation both at school and in other social >> gathering places. I'm not sure how to handle it; whenever it happens >> to me, I usually feel bad for a few seconds, and then think "oh well, >> their loss". LOL I honestly think my parents feel worse about it than >> I do. >> >> On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >>> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >>> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >>> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >>> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> >>> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>> Hi All! >>>> >>>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >>>> Facebook. >>>> >>>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >>>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >>>> >>>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>>> something like that. >>>> >>>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >>>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I >>>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one >>>> of them works at the radio station with me. >>>> >>>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. >>>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch >>>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >>>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a >>>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >>>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >>>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >>>> night. >>>> >>>> >>>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in >>>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >>>> >>>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >>>> >>>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >>>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>>> wait until you are invited? >>>> >>>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you >>>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >>>> >>>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >>>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there in >>>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>>> myself as number one. >>>> >>>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all >>>> anyone can give is their opinion. >>>> >>>> Kerri >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brianna Scerenscko >> > > > -- > Brianna Scerenscko > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sat Mar 26 23:23:37 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 18:23:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kirt, good post! Blessings, Joshua On 3/26/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Kerry, > It's happened to me before, I think that's something a lot of blind > people can relate to. For me especially in High School it was the > hardest cause I had friends but my "group" from Junior High and the > first part of high school kinda fell apart so my friends were kinda > all over the place and it was hard. > That doesn't happen as much to me anymore, but that's probably me > more than anything. I'm fine taking someone's arm, especially in a > restaurant or crowded kind of place. And...the way I see it, it's > better to get rides with people and only pay for cabs when you have to > or when you're looking to get away and not be with friends. I bum > rides off of people all the time, especially if the person's going the > same place I am. > But that's just me. Honestly, the more I've just been proactive and > asked if I could sit with friends when I find them in my college food > court, or invite people to go to games with me, or whatever, the more > success I've had. I honestly think a lot of the confusion comes from > sighted people not knowing how to handle a blind person who likes > going out and doing stuff on his/her own...people take for granted how > nice independence is. It's like...I don't think most sighted people > would feel liberated going to a college basketball game by themselves, > going to a bar/restaurant alone, independently going to a movie > theater and buying a drink, that sort of thing. But for us blind > people, if we're still learning those skills and gaining confidence > with independent travel, we like going places by ourselves to show > ourselves we can. At least I do. And I think lots of times, sighted > people don't really get that. > That being said, I think it's also important to remember we're not > that different from our sighted friends. And just because they may > not understand why we feel the need to sometimes go places totally by > ourselves, that doesn't mean they can't be our friends. But I do > think it's ok to go places with sighted friends. Honestly, I wouldn't > be surprised if those people who came and talked to you thought you > wanted to be alone because you weren't with a group of people. > Independence is great...but I think real independence is the freedom > to go where you want to go, hang out with who you want to hang out > with, even when that means you take someone's arm or find a ride > somewhere. Heck...some of my good friends now were people who came up > to me, thought I was lost, and walked with me for a while, or helped > me find the line I wanted in the food court, or find a room in a > building, or whatever. Even when sometimes I could've done it on my > own. > So in conclusion, don't be afraid to ask people if you can join > them. Don't be afraid to go places with sighted people, who you > trust, even if that means taking an arm or letting them drive. And > most of all, don't give up. Most sighted people are kind, friendly > and courteous. I think you'll find that, once they know you for a > while and accept you, blindness will become less and less of an issue. > It won't go away completely, but it doesn't have to be a social > barrier. So...I'd just say trust in yourself and don't be afraid to > take help sometimes. Because, a lot of the time, a sighted person > trying to help you is wanting a friend as much as you are...I've met > some of my best friends that way. > Good luck, > Kirt > > On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >> Thanks, Joshua >> >> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>> Hi All! >>> >>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >>> Facebook. >>> >>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >>> >>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>> something like that. >>> >>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I >>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one >>> of them works at the radio station with me. >>> >>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. >>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch >>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a >>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >>> night. >>> >>> >>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in >>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >>> >>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >>> >>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>> wait until you are invited? >>> >>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you >>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >>> >>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there in >>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>> myself as number one. >>> >>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all >>> anyone can give is their opinion. >>> >>> Kerri >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From bfs1206 at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 23:30:40 2011 From: bfs1206 at gmail.com (Brianna Scerenscko) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 19:30:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree with the statement that at first a sighted person may not know how to handle being with a blind person and or they may think you want to be alone because you were sitting alone. I've met some pretty great people who are now friends of mine that I met by them helping me or giving me sighted guide in a crowded and unfamiliar area. Although independents is important, it's okay to ask for rides or help if you feel you need it. Good Luck Brianna On 3/26/11, Hope Paulos wrote: > Hi Kerri. I don't know if I'd ask them if you could join their group. They > might just do it out of politeness and feel obligated to let you join. You > said your family runs a bar. Why not, instead of sitting at a table alone, > go to the bar where there are a lot more people sitting closer together? > Unfortunately, that's all I can suggest. I'm sorry. > Hope and guide dog, Beignet > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brianna Scerenscko" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:37 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People > > >>I don't mean to sound consided or anything. :) >> >> On 3/26/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>> I have been in that same situation both at school and in other social >>> gathering places. I'm not sure how to handle it; whenever it happens >>> to me, I usually feel bad for a few seconds, and then think "oh well, >>> their loss". LOL I honestly think my parents feel worse about it than >>> I do. >>> >>> On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >>>> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >>>> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >>>> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >>>> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>> >>>> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>> Hi All! >>>>> >>>>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>>>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >>>>> Facebook. >>>>> >>>>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >>>>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >>>>> >>>>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>>>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>>>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>>>> something like that. >>>>> >>>>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >>>>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I >>>>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one >>>>> of them works at the radio station with me. >>>>> >>>>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. >>>>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch >>>>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >>>>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>>>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a >>>>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>>>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>>>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >>>>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >>>>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >>>>> night. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>>>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in >>>>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >>>>> >>>>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >>>>> >>>>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >>>>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>>>> wait until you are invited? >>>>> >>>>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you >>>>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >>>>> >>>>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>>>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>>>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>>>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >>>>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>>>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there in >>>>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>>>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>>>> myself as number one. >>>>> >>>>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all >>>>> anyone can give is their opinion. >>>>> >>>>> Kerri >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brianna Scerenscko >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brianna Scerenscko >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > -- Brianna Scerenscko From serenacucco at verizon.net Sun Mar 27 01:15:01 2011 From: serenacucco at verizon.net (Serena Cucco) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:15:01 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <28DD832D16B0456A8C661600E528A6C6@SerenaPC> It's true that sighted people might think you want to be alone cuz you're sitting alone, but I frankly think they're stupid! You're probably sitting alone cuz you came to the bar or lunch/dinner table alone, but that's cuz you weren't with anyone, not cuz you wanted to be alone. It isn't so simple to find a group of people to sit with, especially if you're not very familiar with the bar or dining hall. When I was in college, there were many times I came to the dining hall alone and people sat with me or didn't, depending on who was around. My sighted friend Anthony often came alone and often came with his girlfriend ... I'm sure people sometimes sat with him, but I'm sure he sometimes ended up eating alone. If you come alone, I think it's better to not ask random people to join their group just to make people know you're not antisocial. It's better to simply sit alone and hope people realize you don't want to be alone. It's the age. Young adults are simply that ... young and often immature. Sorry, but I think many people, sighted or blind, are just plain dumb! Also, I think the socializing issue is separate from learning independence skills, except that Kerrie mentioned not using sighted guide or asking people for rides to show she's not burdening her acquaintances. I don't think she's purposely going places alone simply to be independent. Kerrie, please correct me if I'm wrong. Serena -----Original Message----- From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf Of Brianna Scerenscko Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 7:31 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People I agree with the statement that at first a sighted person may not know how to handle being with a blind person and or they may think you want to be alone because you were sitting alone. I've met some pretty great people who are now friends of mine that I met by them helping me or giving me sighted guide in a crowded and unfamiliar area. Although independents is important, it's okay to ask for rides or help if you feel you need it. Good Luck Brianna On 3/26/11, Hope Paulos wrote: > Hi Kerri. I don't know if I'd ask them if you could join their group. They > might just do it out of politeness and feel obligated to let you join. You > said your family runs a bar. Why not, instead of sitting at a table alone, > go to the bar where there are a lot more people sitting closer together? > Unfortunately, that's all I can suggest. I'm sorry. > Hope and guide dog, Beignet > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Brianna Scerenscko" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:37 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People > > >>I don't mean to sound consided or anything. :) >> >> On 3/26/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>> I have been in that same situation both at school and in other social >>> gathering places. I'm not sure how to handle it; whenever it happens >>> to me, I usually feel bad for a few seconds, and then think "oh well, >>> their loss". LOL I honestly think my parents feel worse about it than >>> I do. >>> >>> On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >>>> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >>>> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >>>> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >>>> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>> >>>> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>> Hi All! >>>>> >>>>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>>>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >>>>> Facebook. >>>>> >>>>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >>>>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >>>>> >>>>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>>>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>>>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>>>> something like that. >>>>> >>>>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >>>>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I >>>>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one >>>>> of them works at the radio station with me. >>>>> >>>>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. >>>>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch >>>>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >>>>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>>>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a >>>>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>>>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>>>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >>>>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >>>>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >>>>> night. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>>>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in >>>>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >>>>> >>>>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >>>>> >>>>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >>>>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>>>> wait until you are invited? >>>>> >>>>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you >>>>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >>>>> >>>>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>>>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>>>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>>>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >>>>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>>>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there in >>>>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>>>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>>>> myself as number one. >>>>> >>>>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all >>>>> anyone can give is their opinion. >>>>> >>>>> Kerri >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen ts.pccua.edu >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brianna Scerenscko >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brianna Scerenscko >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail. com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com > -- Brianna Scerenscko _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo n.net From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 27 01:24:05 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:24:05 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority Message-ID: <20110327012405.8790.64290@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Rather than turning your sighted friend down for membership, why don't you tell them that they should find a blind person to come in with them thus meting your majority? Or, use your sighted candidate's interest as motivation to generate interest in getting some more blind folks in? Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > I know why this rule exists and understand why, but my issue is when a > sighted person wants to join, we are supposed to turn them down if it will > put us over the percentage rate. I do not think that is right. > We had this come up last year and we had to count all of our members before > we could vote in a new member that was sighted. I just think that if we > turned to many people away that it would look bad on our organization and we > are all about educating the public, but if we turn people away our > communities will think we don't want involvement other then ourselves. > Miranda > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Orozco" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 3:50 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority >> Dear all, >> I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate >> or >> division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this >> majority >> rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It is >> my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be >> blind >> and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people >> from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made >> since >> in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but >> seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still >> on >> the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and coming >> generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly blind >> organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed to >> bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our >> cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your >> views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: >> "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind >> controlled >> by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of >> the >> blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting >> members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local chapters >> are blind." >> ... >> "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the National >> Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the >> president >> of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a >> list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under procedures >> to >> be >> established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the >> application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of the >> Blind shall >> issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the >> national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national >> president >> the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the >> constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay to >> the national >> president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no >> organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its >> voting members >> are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at >> least >> a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state >> affiliate >> and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not merely >> be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to >> promote >> the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their >> local >> chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the >> Federation." >> Regards, >> Joe >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/brownbears%40mchsi.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 27 01:29:26 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:29:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority Message-ID: <20110327012926.9150.37995@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Well, in the Canadian Federation of the Blind, sighted members can't vote or serve as officers. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Let as many sighted people join as they want, just have there vote worth 50% > or something like that, or have them join in a non voting capacity. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Joe Orozco" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2011 4:50 PM > Subject: [nabs-l] Blind Majority >> Dear all, >> I always knew that the executive positions on any NFB chapter, affiliate >> or >> division board had to be blind. I did not, however, know that this >> majority >> rule also applies to the general membership of these organizations. It is >> my understanding that at least 51 percent of the membership has to be >> blind >> and that this provision was primarily included to prevent sighted people >> from taking over the organization. I can see how this would have made >> since >> in the organization's early beginnings, maybe even during the 60's, but >> seeing as how the provisions survived the 1986 ratification and is still >> on >> the books today, I am curious to hear what you think as the up and coming >> generation of leaders. Is it necessary to guarantee a predominantly blind >> organization through constitutional provisions, or should we be allowed to >> bring in sighted people interested in membership to further promote our >> cause? I have my thoughts on the subject, but I'm curious to hear your >> views. The NFB constitution provisions read as follow: >> "Section C. State affiliates shall be organizations of the blind >> controlled >> by the blind. No organization shall be recognized as an "organization of >> the >> blind controlled by the blind" unless at least a majority of its voting >> members and a majority of the voting members of each of its local chapters >> are blind." >> ... >> "Any organized group desiring to become a state affiliate of the National >> Federation of the Blind shall apply for affiliation by submitting to the >> president >> of the National Federation of the Blind a copy of its constitution and a >> list of the names and addresses of its elected officers. Under procedures >> to >> be >> established by the board of directors, action shall be taken on the >> application. If the action is affirmative, the National Federation of the >> Blind shall >> issue to the organization a charter of affiliation. Upon request of the >> national president the state affiliate shall provide to the national >> president >> the names and addresses of its members. Copies of all amendments to the >> constitution and/or bylaws of an affiliate shall be sent without delay to >> the national >> president. No organization shall be accepted as an affiliate and no >> organization shall remain an affiliate unless at least a majority of its >> voting members >> are blind. The president, vice president (or vice presidents), and at >> least >> a majority of the executive committee or board of directors of the state >> affiliate >> and of all of its local chapters must be blind. Affiliates must not merely >> be social organizations but must formulate programs and actively work to >> promote >> the economic and social betterment of the blind. Affiliates and their >> local >> chapters must comply with the provisions of the constitution of the >> Federation." >> Regards, >> Joe >> "Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves, >> some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kramc11%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 27 01:42:37 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:42:37 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] majority Message-ID: <20110327014237.31476.19801@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Bridget, As a case of history, something like what you describe really did happen. There are several blindness organizations in Canada of the blind. One of them, now called the National federation of the Blind Alliance for Equality, started out as the first Canadian organization similar to the NFB in the U.S. At some point in their history, they allowed sighted people to vote without any restrictions on ratios of blind to sighted. At some point, the number of sighted persons did outweigh the number of blind persons in the group, and the sighted really did change the direction of the organization such that the original integrity of the group's purpose was compromised. It wasn't because the sighted could see; that wasn't the problem. Instead, it's that sighted people (the majority of them) really don't get blindness on a fundamental level because it's contrary to their experience of the world as sighted persons. The sighted (for the most part) tend to see the world through their perspective and will act accordingly just as we act accordingly with our perspective. Though no harm is meant, the sighted may choose policies that aren't good for blind people. The Google Aps project is a case in point: no one means to discriminate against the blind; it just didn't occur to sighted users and designers that the blind can't get at the applications because they've really got no cause to understand. Most sighted people don't understand what the problem is with touch screens because it doesn't occur to them that they're a problem for the blind even though it should be quite obvious. Meanwhile, the problems that sighted people envision related to blindness are things we've overcome ages ago, but they haven't been a part of that process so they simply don't know. Yes, we can educate the sighted, but it takes a special sighted person to totally deconstruct their perspective and taken-for-granted assumptions about the world for them to get it. Yes, some blind people must go through a similar deconstruction, but I imagine that such a deconstruction may be more difficult for sighted persons in some ways since they adhere pretty strongly to a very visual reality. For the blind who must relearn, I wonder if it isn't a tad easier because there's a gut level understanding that a preference for vision is pretty arbitrary in nature. Maybe I'm wrong, and I definitely think I'm not doing myself justice. What do you all think? Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > But does it matter if the majority is blind, or should it matter that > the majority holds to Federation philosophy? > Yes we are the blind speaking for the blind-- as it should be. And we > should maintain that a majority of our leadership be blind, but when did > we decide that membership come at a cost? Are we not trying to change > what it means to be blind? Does this not include attempting to reach > out to the blind and sighted alike in hopes they are willing to learn > and embrace our philosophy? Why would this look bad, or change the > focus of the organization? Shouldn't it be about a collective voice > furthering Federation goals and causes? > We walk a fine line between independence and reverse prejudice. And as > Miranda described, how was it fair that her chapter take a head count of > the blind and sighted just to say yes or no to a sighted member wanting > to join? How does this look to someone who presumeably was ready to > join the NFB and do their part? > I have heard the argument that a sighted majority could vote against our > current policies and change the organization, but is not this judging > sighted people just because they can "see?" What is to stop a blind > majority from doing the same? Not all blind Federationist are "on > board" with every aspect of the organization. Isn't it making an > awfully big assumption to claim a sighted majority, who chose to join a > progressive group, would storm in and change our direction, even though > they willingly joined a progressive organization? > I am not suggesting we try to have more sighted people over blind > people, though if this ever did happen, it would be a sad state of > affairs that few blind people cared enough to join. > For a group seeking equality, it seems odd that we would exclude people > based on their eyesight. Sound familiar? > Bridgit > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:09:06 -0400 > From: Jorge Paez > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind Majority > Message-ID: <15D2C523-E8DC-441F-A903-279641EEA4A4 at mac.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > Miranda: > I understand your points, > but under the constitution, going over majority would mean the sighted > have the major vote, which would defeat the NFB's purpose for existing. > Jorge > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 27 02:00:55 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 22:00:55 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] reading class matterial Message-ID: <98EF1F44D6B54BB78539681BE700454E@OwnerPC> Hi all, I’m experiencing trouble again getting accessible matterial even though I asked for it when the semester began and its in my memo of accomodation. What I mean is I need powerpoints and handouts in electronic format! We have presentations in grammar class and many either have handouts, powerpoint or both. I’m at a disadvantage without them. The instructor said she’d put them in blackboard; another student requested this and she agreed thinking it would help everyone. But this wasn’t done and I emailed her for the handouts (both hers and the student presenters) and have not heard anything. These handouts are pretty important because the text book sucks; its so technical and wordy and the professor breaks it down in her own words to teach us in a more understandable way. Do you all have this trouble? So should I tell my disability counselor and she tell the professors? I wonder; I am getting frustrated. Its more a issue in applied grammar, not communication. But two weeks ago the professor used powerpoint to do a lecture. He usually uses the board. So how long does it take instructors to send you matterial? Do you ask them a few times before going above them? Ashley From jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu Sun Mar 27 02:13:58 2011 From: jlester8462 at students.pccua.edu (Joshua Lester) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 21:13:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] reading class matterial In-Reply-To: <98EF1F44D6B54BB78539681BE700454E@OwnerPC> References: <98EF1F44D6B54BB78539681BE700454E@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley, my teachers in college are very accomidating. Yes, I'd recommend that you tell your counselor. That would solve the problem, (or it should.) Blessings, Joshua On 3/26/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > > I’m experiencing trouble again getting accessible matterial even though I > asked for it when the semester began and its in my memo of accomodation. > What I mean is I need powerpoints and handouts in electronic format! We > have presentations in grammar class and many either have handouts, > powerpoint or both. > I’m at a disadvantage without them. The instructor said she’d put them in > blackboard; another student requested this and she agreed thinking it would > help everyone. > But this wasn’t done and I emailed her for the handouts (both hers and the > student presenters) and have not heard anything. > > These handouts are pretty important because the text book sucks; its so > technical and wordy and the professor breaks it down in her own words to > teach us in a more understandable way. > Do you all have this trouble? > > So should I tell my disability counselor and she tell the professors? I > wonder; I am getting frustrated. Its more a issue in applied grammar, not > communication. > But two weeks ago the professor used powerpoint to do a lecture. He > usually uses the board. > > So how long does it take instructors to send you matterial? Do you ask them > a few times before going above them? > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 27 02:26:34 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 22:26:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT small group communication Message-ID: <20110327022634.9278.12430@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Accessible Event allows you to read powerpoints. You can ask people to e-mail hand-outs to you ahead of time, especially if they are important. Usually though, hand-outs usually serve as a place to take notes or to summarize concepts. As for time-keeping, use a braille watch. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi all, > I could use some help and brainstorming ideas. > This is for an interpersonal communication project. > A couple questions/concerns here. I’m doing a group presentation on > small group roles; its very broad but we’re focussing on the different > power people have and how the environment affects the roles we play. > One member is presenting the Stanford prison experiment with a video > clip. Its on youtube I think. Its about a psychological experiment > where healthy college students were assigned to be guards or inmates > and what happens in an institution like that > Some of my questions. > 1. Everyone has access to the handouts via hard copy; one member will > prepare a 1-2 page handout > How do you access things like this including powerpoint? Do you just > insist on having them ahead of time? What about other presenters in > your class? They will hand out stuff too. What do you do? Just take it > home and scan? > What I will do is politely remind them that I cannot see the paper and > to please read/paraphrase things on the handout. > 2. How do you track time in a group presentation or public speaking? > I have a watch I can see but I have to turn toward it with tunnel > vision and even with a talking watch, I cannot exactly press it during > a presentation. > I want to track time so in the last minute I can wrap things up and > “transition” to the next speaker in this case. > 3. I can read braille so plan to write out some notes. But where do you > put these? Others will have notes in their hands or on screen. > Obviously I need to lay them down. Perhaps the podium? > 4. If you have equipment, who operates that? The professor, another > classmate? In the past I used the professor to change screens for me or > click on videos. > Now for my other needs. Can you suggest some people/experiments or > sources in the area of small group communication I can look up? Often > having a person’s name helps to start it. > We do not need scholarly sources, but they do need to be reputable; so > quoting experts is a good idea. > Articles or magazines sound good. > I will try the database tomorrow. I wish I had my social psychology > book; that is what I really need! But I sold it away! > The only experiments that come to mind about roles are Milgrims > experiment and the Zimbardo prison experiment. > So psychology and sociology majors, please suggest ideas! > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 27 02:30:29 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 22:30:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT weight issues Message-ID: <20110327023029.31723.63415@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> I highly recommend a book called the 3-hour diet by Jorge Cruise. It's available through BARD, so its accessible. As to exercise, I'd recommend Curves as Curves is highly accessible. They have a color-codeed work-out system, but you're not required to use it. It's just there to help you track colories burned and the like. The actual machines can work without using the system; they run on your own power, so you don't need to see to opperate the equipment. Many blind women attend Curves. Plus, Curves has a built-in network of accountability buddies as you build social relationships there with the other members. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi all, > I’ve battled the weight and appearance issue particularly in the recent > years; my mother got upset about this once I gained weight upon going > to Marymount and eating some unhealthy food there. The freshman 15 is > true! Not that I gained 15 pounds but did gain some weight. It was a > slow weight gain and I hardly noticed it until I put on different clothes. > BTW I lost those six or seven pounds I gained at Marymount university, > MU. But of course I’m still overweight and my mom isn’t satisfied. > I am about five feet and I am apple shaped, meaning my fat tissue is in > my middle, the abdominal area. > I am a girl, so image in this society plays a part. > My Body mass index, BMI, is not 30, the obese category. BMI is > a person’s weight over height squared. > But its not far off. > I mentioned my height and sex and where the weight shows since it does > affect your image and health. > Weight around the abdomin area, apple shape, is associated with more > health risks. I took a health class in college. > I should lose weight to fit in a dress for a wedding in early May and > to have a better weight overall. > Its been a struggle. I already eat more whole grains and some complex carbs. > For instance cereal such as Cheerios for breakfast. I eat no fat milk. > I eat little red meat; I eat chicken and pork primarily. I do not eat > fried food or drink sodas. > I have some fruit but could probably do better there. The worse food I > eat is chips which I eat at lunch with a sandwich. > So I say it’s a struggle because I have eaten healthily for several > years and do not see many results. I live with parents and my mother > has to eat low carbs due to health issues anyway. If I have carbs, > they are the complex kind, like potatoes, not the refined kind! > I might add that I weigh less than in years past. Yet I cannot fit in > a size 14 dress! > What suggestions do you have for diet? How do you feel full on less calories? > I drink water at night, but sometimes I still get the hunger and crave > something. Its probably cause I’m stressed too! > Another issue I see is that being blind I cannot participate in as much > games; I cannot run out and shoot basketball or soccer. > I belong to a gym, but classes rely on seeing an instructor lead > classes. I have not found them too accomodating. > I tried a cardio kickboxing class and it was a disaster as I could not > follow the fast pace! > I have done spinning, a bike workout to music. That is the most accessible. > I cannot go to the gym often and I do not feel motivated to workout at > home due to the fact we have an old treadmill in the back basement. You > cannot incline it and the environment just is too stagnant or something > being in the basement! > I do moves in place, usually jumping jacks, but its not enough. > I wish someone would make a described workout video for aerobics! > Anyway, I just wondered how you all deal with this and what worked for you. > My mom says its all my fault; well obviously she doesn’t admit weight > is partly genetic, and studies indicate that fat in the mid section is > the hardest to lose. > Women my shape will lose fat from the top down. So, the place you want > to lose the fat is the last place it will come off! > Its opposite. Where you put on the fat is the last place to lose it. > I just had to vent. I’m tired of being accused I drink too many sodas > and juices when I never drink them except when I’m out at a restaurant. > As for juices, only at lunch time. I cut back that at night. Sometimes > I don’t even have it at lunch and stick with plain tap water. > I’m tired of hearing I eat too many sweets when actually yes I have > some. But its during lunch time or as a snack; not at night. > I could cut back on that I suppose and eat another snack instead. But > fruit never fills me up. > Maybe something healthier like rice cakes or low fat peanuter/creakers. > I don’t know. > But I am not this overeating junk food aholic my mother thinks I am. > Let me know your ideas. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 27 04:05:29 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 00:05:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] OT small group communication In-Reply-To: <20110327022634.9278.12430@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> References: <20110327022634.9278.12430@domU-12-31-38-00-AD-3E.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <30352F29E83A4571B581F811735FF084@OwnerPC> What is accessible event? -----Original Message----- From: Jedi Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 10:26 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: Re: [nabs-l] OT small group communication Accessible Event allows you to read powerpoints. You can ask people to e-mail hand-outs to you ahead of time, especially if they are important. Usually though, hand-outs usually serve as a place to take notes or to summarize concepts. As for time-keeping, use a braille watch. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Hi all, > I could use some help and brainstorming ideas. > This is for an interpersonal communication project. > A couple questions/concerns here. I’m doing a group presentation on small > group roles; its very broad but we’re focussing on the different power > people have and how the environment affects the roles we play. > One member is presenting the Stanford prison experiment with a video clip. > Its on youtube I think. Its about a psychological experiment where healthy > college students were assigned to be guards or inmates and what happens in > an institution like that > Some of my questions. > 1. Everyone has access to the handouts via hard copy; one member will > prepare a 1-2 page handout > How do you access things like this including powerpoint? Do you just > insist on having them ahead of time? What about other presenters in your > class? They will hand out stuff too. What do you do? Just take it home and > scan? > What I will do is politely remind them that I cannot see the paper and to > please read/paraphrase things on the handout. > 2. How do you track time in a group presentation or public speaking? > I have a watch I can see but I have to turn toward it with tunnel vision > and even with a talking watch, I cannot exactly press it during a > presentation. > I want to track time so in the last minute I can wrap things up and > “transition” to the next speaker in this case. > 3. I can read braille so plan to write out some notes. But where do you > put these? Others will have notes in their hands or on screen. > Obviously I need to lay them down. Perhaps the podium? > 4. If you have equipment, who operates that? The professor, another > classmate? In the past I used the professor to change screens for me or > click on videos. > Now for my other needs. Can you suggest some people/experiments or > sources in the area of small group communication I can look up? Often > having a person’s name helps to start it. > We do not need scholarly sources, but they do need to be reputable; so > quoting experts is a good idea. > Articles or magazines sound good. > I will try the database tomorrow. I wish I had my social psychology book; > that is what I really need! But I sold it away! > The only experiments that come to mind about roles are Milgrims experiment > and the Zimbardo prison experiment. > So psychology and sociology majors, please suggest ideas! > Thanks. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 04:19:30 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 22:19:30 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: <28DD832D16B0456A8C661600E528A6C6@SerenaPC> References: <28DD832D16B0456A8C661600E528A6C6@SerenaPC> Message-ID: Kerry and Serina, I wasn't saying just ask random people if you could join their group. And, yeah, it's not easy. But the impression I got (and Kerry, maybe I'm totally off here and if I am I'm sorry) was that these were people you already knew. Not just random people saying hi. And, honestly, having been there and knowing I'll be there again, I totally disagree wholeheartedly about the sighted people who leave us alone being immature or stupid. I'm sure we've all done the same to someone before, maybe not even realizing or understanding what we're doing. I think it's not healthy to judge or condemn people for rejecting us, because I think most of us, including me, turn around and do the same thing to people we think are different or who we don't know how to handle. I think I've come to realize that, more often than not, people will leave me alone when I go places by myself. I've ran in to a few exceptions, like school dances or huge parties where everyone kinda just mixed and mingled anyway, but mostly I think that rule holds true. I think a lot of times people go to bars or restaurants or the like with their groups of friends, so that makes it trickier to socialize when you go alone. That's not to say it can't be done, it's just more complicated. And another thing that might be worth thinking about. Just because someone says hi, talks for a second, then leaves doesn't mean your blindness makes them leave. Maybe they have friends sitting at a table already. Maybe the person's on a schedule and really can't talk because they're going to go meet friends somewhere else. Maybe they're alone, like you, but too afraid to ask if they can join you...maybe there's a lot of other things you don't know about that make someone leave after coming by to say hi. I'm not saying them being unsure how to handle your blindness isn't a factor, it's probably a big one. But I think you do yourself a huge injustice if you think the only reason people leave after short conversation is your blindness. Heck, if that were true, I'd say you'd have a lot more people straight up ignoring you instead of at least making a small effort. There could be lots of other factors involved, especially if whoever came to say hi was at the bar with a group of friends and felt obligated to get back. That's why I say it's easier to go to places like restaurants with someone. But mostly don't get discouraged. I think most of us have been there...heck, I'd say probably most people, blind or sighted, have been there. I know I have and it's not easy. But, like anything else in life, it's very doable. HOpe that helps, Kirt On 3/26/11, Serena Cucco wrote: > It's true that sighted people might think you want to be alone cuz you're > sitting alone, but I frankly think they're stupid! You're probably sitting > alone cuz you came to the bar or lunch/dinner table alone, but that's cuz > you weren't with anyone, not cuz you wanted to be alone. It isn't so simple > to find a group of people to sit with, especially if you're not very > familiar with the bar or dining hall. When I was in college, there were > many times I came to the dining hall alone and people sat with me or didn't, > depending on who was around. My sighted friend Anthony often came alone and > often came with his girlfriend ... I'm sure people sometimes sat with him, > but I'm sure he sometimes ended up eating alone. If you come alone, I think > it's better to not ask random people to join their group just to make people > know you're not antisocial. It's better to simply sit alone and hope people > realize you don't want to be alone. It's the age. Young adults are simply > that ... young and often immature. Sorry, but I think many people, sighted > or blind, are just plain dumb! > > Also, I think the socializing issue is separate from learning independence > skills, except that Kerrie mentioned not using sighted guide or asking > people for rides to show she's not burdening her acquaintances. I don't > think she's purposely going places alone simply to be independent. Kerrie, > please correct me if I'm wrong. > > Serena > > > -----Original Message----- > From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf > Of Brianna Scerenscko > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 7:31 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People > > I agree with the statement that at first a sighted person may not know > how to handle being with a blind person and or they may think you want > to be alone because you were sitting alone. I've met some pretty great > people who are now friends of mine that I met by them helping me or > giving me sighted guide in a crowded and unfamiliar area. Although > independents is important, it's okay to ask for rides or help if you > feel you need it. > Good Luck > Brianna > > > On 3/26/11, Hope Paulos wrote: >> Hi Kerri. I don't know if I'd ask them if you could join their group. > They >> might just do it out of politeness and feel obligated to let you join. You >> said your family runs a bar. Why not, instead of sitting at a table > alone, >> go to the bar where there are a lot more people sitting closer together? >> Unfortunately, that's all I can suggest. I'm sorry. >> Hope and guide dog, Beignet >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:37 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >> >> >>>I don't mean to sound consided or anything. :) >>> >>> On 3/26/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>>> I have been in that same situation both at school and in other social >>>> gathering places. I'm not sure how to handle it; whenever it happens >>>> to me, I usually feel bad for a few seconds, and then think "oh well, >>>> their loss". LOL I honestly think my parents feel worse about it than >>>> I do. >>>> >>>> On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >>>>> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >>>>> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >>>>> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >>>>> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>> >>>>> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>> Hi All! >>>>>> >>>>>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>>>>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >>>>>> Facebook. >>>>>> >>>>>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >>>>>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >>>>>> >>>>>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>>>>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>>>>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>>>>> something like that. >>>>>> >>>>>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >>>>>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I >>>>>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one >>>>>> of them works at the radio station with me. >>>>>> >>>>>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. >>>>>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch >>>>>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >>>>>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>>>>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a >>>>>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>>>>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>>>>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >>>>>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >>>>>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >>>>>> night. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>>>>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in >>>>>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >>>>>> >>>>>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >>>>>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>>>>> wait until you are invited? >>>>>> >>>>>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you >>>>>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >>>>>> >>>>>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>>>>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>>>>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>>>>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >>>>>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>>>>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there in >>>>>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>>>>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>>>>> myself as number one. >>>>>> >>>>>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all >>>>>> anyone can give is their opinion. >>>>>> >>>>>> Kerri >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen > ts.pccua.edu >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brianna Scerenscko >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail. > com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >> > > > -- > Brianna Scerenscko > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo > n.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From loneblindjedi at samobile.net Sun Mar 27 04:36:26 2011 From: loneblindjedi at samobile.net (Jedi) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 00:36:26 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People Message-ID: <20110327043626.32210.7626@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> No worries, it happens to the sighted as well. Short interactions like that are pretty common, especially when there are several groups of people a place like a bar or coffee house. The way to deal with it is to take a friend with you so you don't feel so lonesome. Otherwise, go to the bar itself as has already been suggested. If you get the feeling like it's appropriate, don't feel bad about asking if you can join a group. I do it all the time and have made some friends that way. Sometimes, you have get the ball rolling with folks, especially those who are a little clueless on blind/sighted relations. Just use your better judgement. Respectfully, Jedi Original message: > Kirt, good post! > Blessings, Joshua > On 3/26/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >> Kerry, >> It's happened to me before, I think that's something a lot of blind >> people can relate to. For me especially in High School it was the >> hardest cause I had friends but my "group" from Junior High and the >> first part of high school kinda fell apart so my friends were kinda >> all over the place and it was hard. >> That doesn't happen as much to me anymore, but that's probably me >> more than anything. I'm fine taking someone's arm, especially in a >> restaurant or crowded kind of place. And...the way I see it, it's >> better to get rides with people and only pay for cabs when you have to >> or when you're looking to get away and not be with friends. I bum >> rides off of people all the time, especially if the person's going the >> same place I am. >> But that's just me. Honestly, the more I've just been proactive and >> asked if I could sit with friends when I find them in my college food >> court, or invite people to go to games with me, or whatever, the more >> success I've had. I honestly think a lot of the confusion comes from >> sighted people not knowing how to handle a blind person who likes >> going out and doing stuff on his/her own...people take for granted how >> nice independence is. It's like...I don't think most sighted people >> would feel liberated going to a college basketball game by themselves, >> going to a bar/restaurant alone, independently going to a movie >> theater and buying a drink, that sort of thing. But for us blind >> people, if we're still learning those skills and gaining confidence >> with independent travel, we like going places by ourselves to show >> ourselves we can. At least I do. And I think lots of times, sighted >> people don't really get that. >> That being said, I think it's also important to remember we're not >> that different from our sighted friends. And just because they may >> not understand why we feel the need to sometimes go places totally by >> ourselves, that doesn't mean they can't be our friends. But I do >> think it's ok to go places with sighted friends. Honestly, I wouldn't >> be surprised if those people who came and talked to you thought you >> wanted to be alone because you weren't with a group of people. >> Independence is great...but I think real independence is the freedom >> to go where you want to go, hang out with who you want to hang out >> with, even when that means you take someone's arm or find a ride >> somewhere. Heck...some of my good friends now were people who came up >> to me, thought I was lost, and walked with me for a while, or helped >> me find the line I wanted in the food court, or find a room in a >> building, or whatever. Even when sometimes I could've done it on my >> own. >> So in conclusion, don't be afraid to ask people if you can join >> them. Don't be afraid to go places with sighted people, who you >> trust, even if that means taking an arm or letting them drive. And >> most of all, don't give up. Most sighted people are kind, friendly >> and courteous. I think you'll find that, once they know you for a >> while and accept you, blindness will become less and less of an issue. >> It won't go away completely, but it doesn't have to be a social >> barrier. So...I'd just say trust in yourself and don't be afraid to >> take help sometimes. Because, a lot of the time, a sighted person >> trying to help you is wanting a friend as much as you are...I've met >> some of my best friends that way. >> Good luck, >> Kirt >> On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >>> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >>> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >>> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >>> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >>> Thanks, Joshua >>> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>> Hi All! >>>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >>>> Facebook. >>>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >>>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >>>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>>> something like that. >>>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >>>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I >>>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one >>>> of them works at the radio station with me. >>>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. >>>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch >>>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >>>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a >>>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >>>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >>>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >>>> night. >>>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in >>>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >>>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >>>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >>>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>>> wait until you are invited? >>>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you >>>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >>>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >>>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there in >>>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>>> myself as number one. >>>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all >>>> anyone can give is their opinion. >>>> Kerri >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net -- Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. From tealbloodworth at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 04:56:07 2011 From: tealbloodworth at gmail.com (autTeal Bloodwortho) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 23:56:07 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People References: <28DD832D16B0456A8C661600E528A6C6@SerenaPC> Message-ID: <52409EC39F4343ACB96E025619686BB2@PC185582706413> very well put Kurt. I did not respond simply because I don't necessarily think of myself as un-sighted? By us being judgmental towards those who are sighted, I think we create our own false impression that they judge us the same. Most people that I have socialized through college and going to bars I have found curiousity rather than hatfullness or sympathy. I think you should just be yourself and not be so pessimestic. More than likely Kurt was right in saying that these acquantences came with friends and I would be more offended by someone telling me that that person walked by trying to hide or something to avoid me. Yes we are all guilty of saying a quick Hi and Goodbye. I am a totally blind 21 year old 2nd semester junior at a private catholic 4 year university and each day that I go to the bar (ironically named the blind parrot), always sighted guide, I do not feel like I am treated any differently. Kerri I am a believer that life is what you make it. You have to get yourself out their and let these people know that you would be interested in hanging out, Shoot, maybe they can come hang out with you some time too. It's sad to say but the general public can be alittle closed minded to what you can or cannot do. One more thing...I am with Kurt on the taxi deal. Where I live, we do not have public buses, taxi cabs or really another type of public transportation except for a government funded organizationnamed GRITS. unless you have medicade and are going to the doctor it's $1.95 a mile which is quite a bit for the area. Therefore, I do bum alot of rides but I've found that by going with friends I am never alone in a public place having to face the embarrassment that you are experiencing. I wish you luck and hope I help you to love life.just enjoy this timewhile you can -Teal ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kirt Manwaring" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 11:19 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People > Kerry and Serina, > I wasn't saying just ask random people if you could join their > group. And, yeah, it's not easy. But the impression I got (and > Kerry, maybe I'm totally off here and if I am I'm sorry) was that > these were people you already knew. Not just random people saying hi. > And, honestly, having been there and knowing I'll be there again, I > totally disagree wholeheartedly about the sighted people who leave us > alone being immature or stupid. I'm sure we've all done the same to > someone before, maybe not even realizing or understanding what we're > doing. I think it's not healthy to judge or condemn people for > rejecting us, because I think most of us, including me, turn around > and do the same thing to people we think are different or who we don't > know how to handle. I think I've come to realize that, more often > than not, people will leave me alone when I go places by myself. I've > ran in to a few exceptions, like school dances or huge parties where > everyone kinda just mixed and mingled anyway, but mostly I think that > rule holds true. I think a lot of times people go to bars or > restaurants or the like with their groups of friends, so that makes it > trickier to socialize when you go alone. That's not to say it can't > be done, it's just more complicated. > And another thing that might be worth thinking about. Just because > someone says hi, talks for a second, then leaves doesn't mean your > blindness makes them leave. Maybe they have friends sitting at a > table already. Maybe the person's on a schedule and really can't talk > because they're going to go meet friends somewhere else. Maybe > they're alone, like you, but too afraid to ask if they can join > you...maybe there's a lot of other things you don't know about that > make someone leave after coming by to say hi. I'm not saying them > being unsure how to handle your blindness isn't a factor, it's > probably a big one. But I think you do yourself a huge injustice if > you think the only reason people leave after short conversation is > your blindness. Heck, if that were true, I'd say you'd have a lot > more people straight up ignoring you instead of at least making a > small effort. There could be lots of other factors involved, > especially if whoever came to say hi was at the bar with a group of > friends and felt obligated to get back. That's why I say it's easier > to go to places like restaurants with someone. > But mostly don't get discouraged. I think most of us have been > there...heck, I'd say probably most people, blind or sighted, have > been there. I know I have and it's not easy. But, like anything else > in life, it's very doable. > HOpe that helps, > Kirt > > On 3/26/11, Serena Cucco wrote: >> It's true that sighted people might think you want to be alone cuz you're >> sitting alone, but I frankly think they're stupid! You're probably >> sitting >> alone cuz you came to the bar or lunch/dinner table alone, but that's cuz >> you weren't with anyone, not cuz you wanted to be alone. It isn't so >> simple >> to find a group of people to sit with, especially if you're not very >> familiar with the bar or dining hall. When I was in college, there were >> many times I came to the dining hall alone and people sat with me or >> didn't, >> depending on who was around. My sighted friend Anthony often came alone >> and >> often came with his girlfriend ... I'm sure people sometimes sat with >> him, >> but I'm sure he sometimes ended up eating alone. If you come alone, I >> think >> it's better to not ask random people to join their group just to make >> people >> know you're not antisocial. It's better to simply sit alone and hope >> people >> realize you don't want to be alone. It's the age. Young adults are >> simply >> that ... young and often immature. Sorry, but I think many people, >> sighted >> or blind, are just plain dumb! >> >> Also, I think the socializing issue is separate from learning >> independence >> skills, except that Kerrie mentioned not using sighted guide or asking >> people for rides to show she's not burdening her acquaintances. I don't >> think she's purposely going places alone simply to be independent. >> Kerrie, >> please correct me if I'm wrong. >> >> Serena >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >> Behalf >> Of Brianna Scerenscko >> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 7:31 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >> >> I agree with the statement that at first a sighted person may not know >> how to handle being with a blind person and or they may think you want >> to be alone because you were sitting alone. I've met some pretty great >> people who are now friends of mine that I met by them helping me or >> giving me sighted guide in a crowded and unfamiliar area. Although >> independents is important, it's okay to ask for rides or help if you >> feel you need it. >> Good Luck >> Brianna >> >> >> On 3/26/11, Hope Paulos wrote: >>> Hi Kerri. I don't know if I'd ask them if you could join their group. >> They >>> might just do it out of politeness and feel obligated to let you join. >>> You >>> said your family runs a bar. Why not, instead of sitting at a table >> alone, >>> go to the bar where there are a lot more people sitting closer together? >>> Unfortunately, that's all I can suggest. I'm sorry. >>> Hope and guide dog, Beignet >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >>> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:37 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >>> >>> >>>>I don't mean to sound consided or anything. :) >>>> >>>> On 3/26/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>>>> I have been in that same situation both at school and in other social >>>>> gathering places. I'm not sure how to handle it; whenever it happens >>>>> to me, I usually feel bad for a few seconds, and then think "oh well, >>>>> their loss". LOL I honestly think my parents feel worse about it than >>>>> I do. >>>>> >>>>> On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >>>>>> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >>>>>> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >>>>>> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >>>>>> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>> Hi All! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>>>>>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >>>>>>> Facebook. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >>>>>>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>>>>>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>>>>>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>>>>>> something like that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >>>>>>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night >>>>>>> I >>>>>>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> of them works at the radio station with me. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get >>>>>>> everywhere. >>>>>>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to >>>>>>> catch >>>>>>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >>>>>>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>>>>>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>>>>>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>>>>>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >>>>>>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >>>>>>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >>>>>>> night. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>>>>>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >>>>>>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>>>>>> wait until you are invited? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>>>>>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>>>>>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>>>>>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >>>>>>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>>>>>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>>>>>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>>>>>> myself as number one. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand >>>>>>> all >>>>>>> anyone can give is their opinion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen >> ts.pccua.edu >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail. >> com >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brianna Scerenscko >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo >> n.net >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 05:28:08 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 23:28:08 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Spring 2011 Student Slate! Message-ID: Hello all, I am very pleased to be sending you the latest issue of the Student Slate, the quarterly publication of the National Association of Blind Students! I believe this is one of our best issues to date, so please take some time to read and enjoy it. Best, Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Student Slate Spring 2011.doc Type: application/msword Size: 111104 bytes Desc: not available URL: From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 06:26:43 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 00:26:43 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] majority In-Reply-To: <20110327014237.31476.19801@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> References: <20110327014237.31476.19801@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: Jedi, I can only speak from my experience...but I don't think blindness really shaped my world view all that much. I don't think it gave me any really significant conceptual barriers to overcome, I've been blind since birth and I guess it's effected me some. But I don't really feel different from my sighted friends because of my blindness...I don't think it changes my personality or likes or dislikes or who I am or whatever. But that was kind of a little off topic, so I'll go back to what you brought up. I think it's reasonable to say the NFB should have blind people as a majority, with the possibility for exceptions to be made on the chapter level. It's like...the American Bar Assiociation represents lawyers, so I'd be shocked if they allowed the majority of their members to not practice law. That's not trying to promote inequality between lawyers and citizens at large, it's just that lawyers know best how to represent lawyers. Just like the NFL players' union we've all been hearing so much about lately is made up of NFL players. Imagine if any interested fan, or coach, or manager, or radio announcer, or sports analyst could join the players' union? It's not the same situation, because there definitely is a value for sighted members in the NFB, but the same principal applies. The players' union represents players, so it's made up of players. The National Education Association is made up mostly of teachers, because it's a group that represents teachers. I think any special interest group, especially a group representing citizens with a disability, has the right to demand the majority of its' members have the particular disability. That's not prejudice...heck, if there ever were such a thing as a National Federation of the Sighted, (I know it's rediculous, bear with me), I think it would be perfectly reasonable for them to have rules requiring a sighted majority because they'd be representing the interests of the sighted. Bad analogy, but I think it gets my point across. Have I lost you guys yet? Respectfully yours, Kirt On 3/26/11, Jedi wrote: > Bridget, > > As a case of history, something like what you describe really did > happen. There are several blindness organizations in Canada of the > blind. One of them, now called the National federation of the Blind > Alliance for Equality, started out as the first Canadian organization > similar to the NFB in the U.S. At some point in their history, they > allowed sighted people to vote without any restrictions on ratios of > blind to sighted. At some point, the number of sighted persons did > outweigh the number of blind persons in the group, and the sighted > really did change the direction of the organization such that the > original integrity of the group's purpose was compromised. It wasn't > because the sighted could see; that wasn't the problem. Instead, it's > that sighted people (the majority of them) really don't get blindness > on a fundamental level because it's contrary to their experience of the > world as sighted persons. The sighted (for the most part) tend to see > the world through their perspective and will act accordingly just as we > act accordingly with our perspective. Though no harm is meant, the > sighted may choose policies that aren't good for blind people. The > Google Aps project is a case in point: no one means to discriminate > against the blind; it just didn't occur to sighted users and designers > that the blind can't get at the applications because they've really got > no cause to understand. Most sighted people don't understand what the > problem is with touch screens because it doesn't occur to them that > they're a problem for the blind even though it should be quite obvious. > Meanwhile, the problems that sighted people envision related to > blindness are things we've overcome ages ago, but they haven't been a > part of that process so they simply don't know. Yes, we can educate the > sighted, but it takes a special sighted person to totally deconstruct > their perspective and taken-for-granted assumptions about the world for > them to get it. Yes, some blind people must go through a similar > deconstruction, but I imagine that such a deconstruction may be more > difficult for sighted persons in some ways since they adhere pretty > strongly to a very visual reality. For the blind who must relearn, I > wonder if it isn't a tad easier because there's a gut level > understanding that a preference for vision is pretty arbitrary in > nature. Maybe I'm wrong, and I definitely think I'm not doing myself > justice. What do you all think? > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> But does it matter if the majority is blind, or should it matter that >> the majority holds to Federation philosophy? > >> Yes we are the blind speaking for the blind-- as it should be. And we >> should maintain that a majority of our leadership be blind, but when did >> we decide that membership come at a cost? Are we not trying to change >> what it means to be blind? Does this not include attempting to reach >> out to the blind and sighted alike in hopes they are willing to learn >> and embrace our philosophy? Why would this look bad, or change the >> focus of the organization? Shouldn't it be about a collective voice >> furthering Federation goals and causes? > >> We walk a fine line between independence and reverse prejudice. And as >> Miranda described, how was it fair that her chapter take a head count of >> the blind and sighted just to say yes or no to a sighted member wanting >> to join? How does this look to someone who presumeably was ready to >> join the NFB and do their part? > >> I have heard the argument that a sighted majority could vote against our >> current policies and change the organization, but is not this judging >> sighted people just because they can "see?" What is to stop a blind >> majority from doing the same? Not all blind Federationist are "on >> board" with every aspect of the organization. Isn't it making an >> awfully big assumption to claim a sighted majority, who chose to join a >> progressive group, would storm in and change our direction, even though >> they willingly joined a progressive organization? > >> I am not suggesting we try to have more sighted people over blind >> people, though if this ever did happen, it would be a sad state of >> affairs that few blind people cared enough to join. > >> For a group seeking equality, it seems odd that we would exclude people >> based on their eyesight. Sound familiar? > >> Bridgit > >> Message: 4 >> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:09:06 -0400 >> From: Jorge Paez >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind Majority >> Message-ID: <15D2C523-E8DC-441F-A903-279641EEA4A4 at mac.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII > >> Miranda: >> I understand your points, >> but under the constitution, going over majority would mean the sighted >> have the major vote, which would defeat the NFB's purpose for existing. > > >> Jorge > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 06:58:45 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 01:58:45 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Making friends, socializing with sighted friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Social settings can be tricky for anyone especially in our teens and early twenties. I agree that we can not assume why people choose to include, or exclude, us from any social gathering. Yes, many of us have encountered situations where our blindness was an obstacle for people, but until you know for sure why a person does not invite you to something, you can not automatically assume what the reasoning is. Having said that, many, many people believe they can not relate to a blind person. When I lost my vision at 22, some of my friends suddenly did not know how to act around me even though I was still the same person. It is an unfortunate thing that society has built perceptions of what it is like to be blind. Once they realized, though, that I still shared common interest and was the same Bridgit, just without vision, most of them accepted this and our friendship continued along. We can not develop crusty exteriors that defy anyone to disregard us for being blind. We, if we want a social life, must learn to be warm and inviting and include people into our universe too. This does not mean people will still not pass you by, or exclude you, but it is a step. And if you are alone, many will probably assume you want to be alone-- it is not a social slight, they just assume, as you are assuming, that you would rather be alone. If people would just stop assuming in life, think of how much we could accomplish? LOL It is perfectly acceptable to approach a group and say, "Hey, mind if I join you?" I call it plutonic dating-- it can be nerve-racking, and you will experience some rejection, but if you don't put yourself out there, you will never be aware of the possibilities-- you will not encounter people who may turn into life-long friendships. Blind or sighted, it is human nature to crave companionship, but to also be nervous in social settings. While you sit there wondering why no one is asking you to join their group, many may be wondering similar things about you. We can not always distinguish everything as blind and sighted. The scales do not always tip this way. And we just need to relax and learn to include ourselves in something if we are interested. I recently met a person my age on campus, and we hit it off. We may plans to double date with our husbands, but when she told her husband, his response was, "Okay, but what will we do? I mean, they won't want to go to a movie or something, will they?" I found this more funny than anything, but it is a valid question for someone who has never encountered a blind person. His qualms were laid to rest, and we have just become Bridgit and Ross (the hubby) not the "blind couple." You just have to put yourself out there. Be genuine and forthright in your encounters, and if people don't include you, then move onto the next situation. Trust me, this is not specific to blind people, and when blindness plays a role, alay worries and change perceptions. The truth is, most people have no clue about blindness, and what seems obvious to us, is not clear to others. Until people learn otherwise, why would they think differently? And to the independence factor, of course we should be the best, profficient, capable people we can be, but every situation in life does not have to be a lesson in independence for society. Be yourself, and do what is natural for you. If you go to the bar alone, then go alone, and when acquaintances approach you, be warm and ask to join their group. In crowded situations, I may take hold of a friends arm just so we don't lose one another, and in some crowded situations, people do not pay attention to me, which leads to sighted people tripping over my cane even when I hold it closer to my body-- the pencil grip, as I call it-- (so much for sight being better *smile*) so I may have a friend with sight help me watch out for people not fully aware of their surroundings. It is good to learn how to navigate on your own because not every situation is prime for sighted assistance, for example, going to the bathroom, or if you have to meet up with people. In all things, you learn what works, and you help initiate sighted friends into your world. Sometimes we have to guide the sighted people in our lives-- this is okay. My main advice is to be yourself and learn to be extraverted. Not saying you have to be the life of the party, but initiate conversations on your own, and there is nothing wrong in asking if you can join another group of people. Again, this is not unique to blind people. And don't assume every social interaction gone wrong is because you are blind. True, it probably does play a role, but until people know you, the truth is, they don't have much telling them otherwise. Many of us know the frustration of people not "getting it," but this is just how it is. We know being blind does not create a vast casm between us and the sighted world, but unfortunately, sighted people do not always understand this. We can't say piss off to everyone because of this-- generally they will just think everything they do about blindness plus now they will think blind people are cranky or cold. LOL Trust me-- blind, sighted, young, old, socializing is what it is. You either learn to seek out and cultivate relationships, or you sit at the bar alone. If you don't make blindness an issue, you will learn that many-- not everyone-- but many will learn to not make it an issue either. That confidence factor plays a huge role here. *smile* Bridgit From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 07:28:10 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 02:28:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Reading class material In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All college students should register with their disability services office on campus. When you register, they should go through a list of accommodations, and of course you can add in accommodations you feel are necessary. These accommodations should be sent to each instructor, each semester. It is in your best interest to speak individually with instructors to go over some of this though. You can work privately with an instructor to ensure material is accessible, but if this does not work, or instructors are unwilling to comply, or it takes forever and a day to get the material, your first step should be to contact your DSO. They should act as a liaison between you and instructors. Your VR counselor actually does not have sway directly over these matters. Certainly they can speak with instructors to help explain things, but it is the DSO that should ensure not only the accessibility of material, but how quickly you receive material. Even if your DSO is not great, there are certain laws stipulating your right to accessible material in a timely fashion. I usually take hard copies of hand outs to scan on my own, but if instructors have electronic copies, they just email them to me. I take all my own notes, and I have never required another person to take notes for me. If I require an explanation during a lecture, or am not sure of a spelling, I simply ask. If the class is not conducive to asking questions during lectures, or if I would have to constantly stop to ask questions, holding the lecture up, I make arrangements to meet with the instructor later, but I have never encountered this situation. When I have material, like Powerpoints or inaccessible PDF's, I take it to my DSO and they format it for me. Now, I may have to remind them to send it when I need it, but I also understand this is my responsibility since the DSO has other students they are doing things for. I also have spoke with instructors about inaccessible material, and in four years, all of my instructors have been willing to do what they can as well as allowing me to guide them through the process since I am the blind student and know what I need. I have had instructors convert PP's into Word documents, send hard copy material electronically, ensure during group projects that classmates send me material in electronic formats. I have been lucky, but begin with instructors-- most are willing to work with you. When dealing with classmates, this is where the system, in my experience, can break down. I make sure to copy instructors on all emails sent to classmates, and if fellow students still fail to send material in a timely fashion, I contact the instructor right away. If the material is not sent quickly, at least the instructor realizes it is not your fault and should not penalize you for not having the material. Being a creative writing major in a program based around the workshop environment, I have tons of experience in this. If classmates do not email me with their manuscripts, I can not make comments and discuss during workshop. I do, however, take hard copies of student material to scan in the event they do not send material electronically. If possible, I recommend taking any hard copy material offered beforehand so you are covered. If you can not scan on your own, your DSO should provide this service, though you will have to give them time. I would only go through your counselor if your DSO is not helping. This is how the hierarchy should work. Bridgit Message: 16 Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2011 22:00:55 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: [nabs-l] reading class matterial Message-ID: <98EF1F44D6B54BB78539681BE700454E at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi all, I?m experiencing trouble again getting accessible matterial even though I asked for it when the semester began and its in my memo of accomodation. What I mean is I need powerpoints and handouts in electronic format! We have presentations in grammar class and many either have handouts, powerpoint or both. I?m at a disadvantage without them. The instructor said she?d put them in blackboard; another student requested this and she agreed thinking it would help everyone. But this wasn?t done and I emailed her for the handouts (both hers and the student presenters) and have not heard anything. These handouts are pretty important because the text book sucks; its so technical and wordy and the professor breaks it down in her own words to teach us in a more understandable way. Do you all have this trouble? So should I tell my disability counselor and she tell the professors? I wonder; I am getting frustrated. Its more a issue in applied grammar, not communication. But two weeks ago the professor used powerpoint to do a lecture. He usually uses the board. So how long does it take instructors to send you matterial? Do you ask them a few times before going above them? Ashley From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 08:29:35 2011 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 04:29:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: <52409EC39F4343ACB96E025619686BB2@PC185582706413> References: <28DD832D16B0456A8C661600E528A6C6@SerenaPC> <52409EC39F4343ACB96E025619686BB2@PC185582706413> Message-ID: Hi: Wow, thanks for all the responses! Let me clarify a couple of things. First, I would much much much rather go to the bar or out with a friend, or a group. However, since I don't really have that many friends my ownly choice is to either go alone or not go at all. I do not go alone just to seem independent... I've struggled to make friends my entire life. The reason I use my cane as much as I can, and always get my own transportation is because I think one of the reasons in the past I have had so much trouble making friends is that I burdened the people who did want to become friends with me by constantly expecting them to give me rides. By being as independent as I can, I am trying to show the sighted people around me that I am capable and that I do not expect of them any more then another sighted friend would. I do not want to burden them at all and the only way I know to do that until I can make some friends is to show that I am as independent as possible. I do like the idea of inviting the people to do something on my terms instead of expecting them to invite me to join their group. That is a good idea...I will have to try that. Also, the people who come up to me and say hi are not just random strangers but people I know in one way or another. They come up t me every time they are in the bar so this happens all the time...this coming up and saying hi and then leaving. If I think about this from their perspective, I guess they are coming with a group of friends and they want to say a quick hi, and get back to their friends...which I completely understand. But, if that's the case than what do I do? I am sure if I actually came out and asked one of them when they came up to me, they would have a reason for not inviting me. I'm sure all of this is unintentional on their part...but I don't want to offend anyone by saying something like "Hey, you come up to me and say hi all the time but never invite me into your group. Why is this? What is the reason?" That seems a bit rude... I may try inviting myself one day into a group. It's very interesting because some people strongly say no, that it is not polite to invite yourself into a group. HOwever, others say that I need to get myself out there and that I should invite myself into the group and not feel bad about doing so. Interesting. I will have to try inviting myself and see what happens. Also, I do sit at the bar. Thanks for the responses! Kerri On 3/27/11, autTeal Bloodwortho wrote: > very well put Kurt. I did not respond simply because I don't necessarily > think of myself as un-sighted? By us being judgmental towards those who are > sighted, I think we create our own false impression that they judge us the > same. Most people that I have socialized through college and going to bars I > have found curiousity rather than hatfullness or sympathy. I think you > should just be yourself and not be so pessimestic. More than likely Kurt was > right in saying that these acquantences came with friends and I would be > more offended by someone telling me that that person walked by trying to > hide or something to avoid me. Yes we are all guilty of saying a quick Hi > and Goodbye. I am a totally blind 21 year old 2nd semester junior at a > private catholic 4 year university and each day that I go to the bar > (ironically named the blind parrot), always sighted guide, I do not feel > like I am treated any differently. > > Kerri I am a believer that life is what you make it. You have to get > yourself out their and let these people know that you would be interested in > hanging out, Shoot, maybe they can come hang out with you some time too. > It's sad to say but the general public can be alittle closed minded to what > you can or cannot do. One more thing...I am with Kurt on the taxi deal. > Where I live, we do not have public buses, taxi cabs or really another type > of public transportation except for a government funded organizationnamed > GRITS. unless you have medicade and are going to the doctor it's $1.95 a > mile which is quite a bit for the area. Therefore, I do bum alot of rides > but I've found that by going with friends I am never alone in a public place > having to face the embarrassment that you are experiencing. > > I wish you luck and hope I help you to love life.just enjoy this timewhile > you can > > -Teal > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kirt Manwaring" > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 11:19 PM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People > > >> Kerry and Serina, >> I wasn't saying just ask random people if you could join their >> group. And, yeah, it's not easy. But the impression I got (and >> Kerry, maybe I'm totally off here and if I am I'm sorry) was that >> these were people you already knew. Not just random people saying hi. >> And, honestly, having been there and knowing I'll be there again, I >> totally disagree wholeheartedly about the sighted people who leave us >> alone being immature or stupid. I'm sure we've all done the same to >> someone before, maybe not even realizing or understanding what we're >> doing. I think it's not healthy to judge or condemn people for >> rejecting us, because I think most of us, including me, turn around >> and do the same thing to people we think are different or who we don't >> know how to handle. I think I've come to realize that, more often >> than not, people will leave me alone when I go places by myself. I've >> ran in to a few exceptions, like school dances or huge parties where >> everyone kinda just mixed and mingled anyway, but mostly I think that >> rule holds true. I think a lot of times people go to bars or >> restaurants or the like with their groups of friends, so that makes it >> trickier to socialize when you go alone. That's not to say it can't >> be done, it's just more complicated. >> And another thing that might be worth thinking about. Just because >> someone says hi, talks for a second, then leaves doesn't mean your >> blindness makes them leave. Maybe they have friends sitting at a >> table already. Maybe the person's on a schedule and really can't talk >> because they're going to go meet friends somewhere else. Maybe >> they're alone, like you, but too afraid to ask if they can join >> you...maybe there's a lot of other things you don't know about that >> make someone leave after coming by to say hi. I'm not saying them >> being unsure how to handle your blindness isn't a factor, it's >> probably a big one. But I think you do yourself a huge injustice if >> you think the only reason people leave after short conversation is >> your blindness. Heck, if that were true, I'd say you'd have a lot >> more people straight up ignoring you instead of at least making a >> small effort. There could be lots of other factors involved, >> especially if whoever came to say hi was at the bar with a group of >> friends and felt obligated to get back. That's why I say it's easier >> to go to places like restaurants with someone. >> But mostly don't get discouraged. I think most of us have been >> there...heck, I'd say probably most people, blind or sighted, have >> been there. I know I have and it's not easy. But, like anything else >> in life, it's very doable. >> HOpe that helps, >> Kirt >> >> On 3/26/11, Serena Cucco wrote: >>> It's true that sighted people might think you want to be alone cuz you're >>> sitting alone, but I frankly think they're stupid! You're probably >>> sitting >>> alone cuz you came to the bar or lunch/dinner table alone, but that's cuz >>> you weren't with anyone, not cuz you wanted to be alone. It isn't so >>> simple >>> to find a group of people to sit with, especially if you're not very >>> familiar with the bar or dining hall. When I was in college, there were >>> many times I came to the dining hall alone and people sat with me or >>> didn't, >>> depending on who was around. My sighted friend Anthony often came alone >>> and >>> often came with his girlfriend ... I'm sure people sometimes sat with >>> him, >>> but I'm sure he sometimes ended up eating alone. If you come alone, I >>> think >>> it's better to not ask random people to join their group just to make >>> people >>> know you're not antisocial. It's better to simply sit alone and hope >>> people >>> realize you don't want to be alone. It's the age. Young adults are >>> simply >>> that ... young and often immature. Sorry, but I think many people, >>> sighted >>> or blind, are just plain dumb! >>> >>> Also, I think the socializing issue is separate from learning >>> independence >>> skills, except that Kerrie mentioned not using sighted guide or asking >>> people for rides to show she's not burdening her acquaintances. I don't >>> think she's purposely going places alone simply to be independent. >>> Kerrie, >>> please correct me if I'm wrong. >>> >>> Serena >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>> Behalf >>> Of Brianna Scerenscko >>> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 7:31 PM >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >>> >>> I agree with the statement that at first a sighted person may not know >>> how to handle being with a blind person and or they may think you want >>> to be alone because you were sitting alone. I've met some pretty great >>> people who are now friends of mine that I met by them helping me or >>> giving me sighted guide in a crowded and unfamiliar area. Although >>> independents is important, it's okay to ask for rides or help if you >>> feel you need it. >>> Good Luck >>> Brianna >>> >>> >>> On 3/26/11, Hope Paulos wrote: >>>> Hi Kerri. I don't know if I'd ask them if you could join their group. >>> They >>>> might just do it out of politeness and feel obligated to let you join. >>>> You >>>> said your family runs a bar. Why not, instead of sitting at a table >>> alone, >>>> go to the bar where there are a lot more people sitting closer together? >>>> Unfortunately, that's all I can suggest. I'm sorry. >>>> Hope and guide dog, Beignet >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>> >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:37 PM >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >>>> >>>> >>>>>I don't mean to sound consided or anything. :) >>>>> >>>>> On 3/26/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>>>>> I have been in that same situation both at school and in other social >>>>>> gathering places. I'm not sure how to handle it; whenever it happens >>>>>> to me, I usually feel bad for a few seconds, and then think "oh well, >>>>>> their loss". LOL I honestly think my parents feel worse about it than >>>>>> I do. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >>>>>>> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >>>>>>> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >>>>>>> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >>>>>>> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>> Hi All! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>>>>>>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >>>>>>>> Facebook. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >>>>>>>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>>>>>>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>>>>>>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>>>>>>> something like that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >>>>>>>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and >>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>> of them works at the radio station with me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get >>>>>>>> everywhere. >>>>>>>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to >>>>>>>> catch >>>>>>>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >>>>>>>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>>>>>>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is >>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>>>>>>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>>>>>>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >>>>>>>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >>>>>>>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >>>>>>>> night. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>>>>>>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >>>>>>>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>>>>>>> wait until you are invited? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>>>>>>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>>>>>>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>>>>>>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >>>>>>>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>>>>>>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there >>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>>>>>>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>>>>>>> myself as number one. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand >>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>> anyone can give is their opinion. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen >>> ts.pccua.edu >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail. >>> com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brianna Scerenscko >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo >>> n.net >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com > From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 15:06:13 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 09:06:13 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: References: <28DD832D16B0456A8C661600E528A6C6@SerenaPC> <52409EC39F4343ACB96E025619686BB2@PC185582706413> Message-ID: Kerry, Don't be so quick to assume everyone will find reasons to turn you away. I know it's hard (from experience), but sometimes simply asking if you can join people goes a long way. And...if they say no, what have you lost? I think it's better to try and get rejected, for whatever reason (which might not even have anything to do with you), than to not try at all. And another thing. (I've got me a Sunday school lesson to get ready so I'm gonna make this short) But if someone's going the same place you are, and if they live close, I don't think it's a burden at all to ask for rides. Heck, lots of the people I know at college don't have cars, so they're kind of stuck in the same situation where they have to ask for a ride/take a bus/whatever. So asking for a ride isn't weird at all...at least to me. And, if you feel bad or guilty about it, offer to buy them a drink at the bar or something, or pay for some of the gas, or whatever. And don't ever forget that you're not alone. Lots of us have gone through or are still going through the same kind of thing. But I'd say try and hang out with the people who come say hi. The worst that could happen is they say no, which isn't really your fault at all. And even that's probably better than your situation now because at least you made the effort. Good luck, and be safe. Best, Kirt On 3/27/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: > Hi: > > Wow, thanks for all the responses! > > Let me clarify a couple of things. > > First, I would much much much rather go to the bar or out with a > friend, or a group. However, since I don't really have that many > friends my ownly choice is to either go alone or not go at all. I do > not go alone just to seem independent... > > I've struggled to make friends my entire life. The reason I use my > cane as much as I can, and always get my own transportation is because > I think one of the reasons in the past I have had so much trouble > making friends is that I burdened the people who did want to become > friends with me by constantly expecting them to give me rides. By > being as independent as I can, I am trying to show the sighted people > around me that I am capable and that I do not expect of them any more > then another sighted friend would. I do not want to burden them at all > and the only way I know to do that until I can make some friends is to > show that I am as independent as possible. > > I do like the idea of inviting the people to do something on my terms > instead of expecting them to invite me to join their group. That is a > good idea...I will have to try that. > > Also, the people who come up to me and say hi are not just random > strangers but people I know in one way or another. They come up t me > every time they are in the bar so this happens all the time...this > coming up and saying hi and then leaving. > > If I think about this from their perspective, I guess they are coming > with a group of friends and they want to say a quick hi, and get back > to their friends...which I completely understand. But, if that's the > case than what do I do? > > I am sure if I actually came out and asked one of them when they came > up to me, they would have a reason for not inviting me. I'm sure all > of this is unintentional on their part...but I don't want to offend > anyone by saying something like "Hey, you come up to me and say hi > all the time but never invite me into your group. Why is this? What is > the reason?" That seems a bit rude... > > I may try inviting myself one day into a group. It's very interesting > because some people strongly say no, that it is not polite to invite > yourself into a group. HOwever, others say that I need to get myself > out there and that I should invite myself into the group and not feel > bad about doing so. > > Interesting. I will have to try inviting myself and see what happens. > > Also, I do sit at the bar. > > Thanks for the responses! > > Kerri > > On 3/27/11, autTeal Bloodwortho wrote: >> very well put Kurt. I did not respond simply because I don't necessarily >> think of myself as un-sighted? By us being judgmental towards those who >> are >> sighted, I think we create our own false impression that they judge us the >> same. Most people that I have socialized through college and going to bars >> I >> have found curiousity rather than hatfullness or sympathy. I think you >> should just be yourself and not be so pessimestic. More than likely Kurt >> was >> right in saying that these acquantences came with friends and I would be >> more offended by someone telling me that that person walked by trying to >> hide or something to avoid me. Yes we are all guilty of saying a quick Hi >> and Goodbye. I am a totally blind 21 year old 2nd semester junior at a >> private catholic 4 year university and each day that I go to the bar >> (ironically named the blind parrot), always sighted guide, I do not feel >> like I am treated any differently. >> >> Kerri I am a believer that life is what you make it. You have to get >> yourself out their and let these people know that you would be interested >> in >> hanging out, Shoot, maybe they can come hang out with you some time too. >> It's sad to say but the general public can be alittle closed minded to >> what >> you can or cannot do. One more thing...I am with Kurt on the taxi deal. >> Where I live, we do not have public buses, taxi cabs or really another >> type >> of public transportation except for a government funded organizationnamed >> GRITS. unless you have medicade and are going to the doctor it's $1.95 a >> mile which is quite a bit for the area. Therefore, I do bum alot of rides >> but I've found that by going with friends I am never alone in a public >> place >> having to face the embarrassment that you are experiencing. >> >> I wish you luck and hope I help you to love life.just enjoy this timewhile >> you can >> >> -Teal >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >> >> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 11:19 PM >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >> >> >>> Kerry and Serina, >>> I wasn't saying just ask random people if you could join their >>> group. And, yeah, it's not easy. But the impression I got (and >>> Kerry, maybe I'm totally off here and if I am I'm sorry) was that >>> these were people you already knew. Not just random people saying hi. >>> And, honestly, having been there and knowing I'll be there again, I >>> totally disagree wholeheartedly about the sighted people who leave us >>> alone being immature or stupid. I'm sure we've all done the same to >>> someone before, maybe not even realizing or understanding what we're >>> doing. I think it's not healthy to judge or condemn people for >>> rejecting us, because I think most of us, including me, turn around >>> and do the same thing to people we think are different or who we don't >>> know how to handle. I think I've come to realize that, more often >>> than not, people will leave me alone when I go places by myself. I've >>> ran in to a few exceptions, like school dances or huge parties where >>> everyone kinda just mixed and mingled anyway, but mostly I think that >>> rule holds true. I think a lot of times people go to bars or >>> restaurants or the like with their groups of friends, so that makes it >>> trickier to socialize when you go alone. That's not to say it can't >>> be done, it's just more complicated. >>> And another thing that might be worth thinking about. Just because >>> someone says hi, talks for a second, then leaves doesn't mean your >>> blindness makes them leave. Maybe they have friends sitting at a >>> table already. Maybe the person's on a schedule and really can't talk >>> because they're going to go meet friends somewhere else. Maybe >>> they're alone, like you, but too afraid to ask if they can join >>> you...maybe there's a lot of other things you don't know about that >>> make someone leave after coming by to say hi. I'm not saying them >>> being unsure how to handle your blindness isn't a factor, it's >>> probably a big one. But I think you do yourself a huge injustice if >>> you think the only reason people leave after short conversation is >>> your blindness. Heck, if that were true, I'd say you'd have a lot >>> more people straight up ignoring you instead of at least making a >>> small effort. There could be lots of other factors involved, >>> especially if whoever came to say hi was at the bar with a group of >>> friends and felt obligated to get back. That's why I say it's easier >>> to go to places like restaurants with someone. >>> But mostly don't get discouraged. I think most of us have been >>> there...heck, I'd say probably most people, blind or sighted, have >>> been there. I know I have and it's not easy. But, like anything else >>> in life, it's very doable. >>> HOpe that helps, >>> Kirt >>> >>> On 3/26/11, Serena Cucco wrote: >>>> It's true that sighted people might think you want to be alone cuz >>>> you're >>>> sitting alone, but I frankly think they're stupid! You're probably >>>> sitting >>>> alone cuz you came to the bar or lunch/dinner table alone, but that's >>>> cuz >>>> you weren't with anyone, not cuz you wanted to be alone. It isn't so >>>> simple >>>> to find a group of people to sit with, especially if you're not very >>>> familiar with the bar or dining hall. When I was in college, there were >>>> many times I came to the dining hall alone and people sat with me or >>>> didn't, >>>> depending on who was around. My sighted friend Anthony often came alone >>>> and >>>> often came with his girlfriend ... I'm sure people sometimes sat with >>>> him, >>>> but I'm sure he sometimes ended up eating alone. If you come alone, I >>>> think >>>> it's better to not ask random people to join their group just to make >>>> people >>>> know you're not antisocial. It's better to simply sit alone and hope >>>> people >>>> realize you don't want to be alone. It's the age. Young adults are >>>> simply >>>> that ... young and often immature. Sorry, but I think many people, >>>> sighted >>>> or blind, are just plain dumb! >>>> >>>> Also, I think the socializing issue is separate from learning >>>> independence >>>> skills, except that Kerrie mentioned not using sighted guide or asking >>>> people for rides to show she's not burdening her acquaintances. I don't >>>> think she's purposely going places alone simply to be independent. >>>> Kerrie, >>>> please correct me if I'm wrong. >>>> >>>> Serena >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>> Behalf >>>> Of Brianna Scerenscko >>>> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 7:31 PM >>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >>>> >>>> I agree with the statement that at first a sighted person may not know >>>> how to handle being with a blind person and or they may think you want >>>> to be alone because you were sitting alone. I've met some pretty great >>>> people who are now friends of mine that I met by them helping me or >>>> giving me sighted guide in a crowded and unfamiliar area. Although >>>> independents is important, it's okay to ask for rides or help if you >>>> feel you need it. >>>> Good Luck >>>> Brianna >>>> >>>> >>>> On 3/26/11, Hope Paulos wrote: >>>>> Hi Kerri. I don't know if I'd ask them if you could join their group. >>>> They >>>>> might just do it out of politeness and feel obligated to let you join. >>>>> You >>>>> said your family runs a bar. Why not, instead of sitting at a table >>>> alone, >>>>> go to the bar where there are a lot more people sitting closer >>>>> together? >>>>> Unfortunately, that's all I can suggest. I'm sorry. >>>>> Hope and guide dog, Beignet >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:37 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>I don't mean to sound consided or anything. :) >>>>>> >>>>>> On 3/26/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>>>>>> I have been in that same situation both at school and in other social >>>>>>> gathering places. I'm not sure how to handle it; whenever it happens >>>>>>> to me, I usually feel bad for a few seconds, and then think "oh well, >>>>>>> their loss". LOL I honestly think my parents feel worse about it than >>>>>>> I do. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >>>>>>>> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >>>>>>>> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >>>>>>>> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >>>>>>>> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>> Hi All! >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>>>>>>>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this >>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>> Facebook. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular >>>>>>>>> bar/restaurant >>>>>>>>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>>>>>>>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>>>>>>>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>>>>>>>> something like that. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully >>>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night >>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and >>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>> of them works at the radio station with me. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get >>>>>>>>> everywhere. >>>>>>>>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to >>>>>>>>> catch >>>>>>>>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for >>>>>>>>> rides, >>>>>>>>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>>>>>>>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>>>>>>>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>>>>>>>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a >>>>>>>>> sweater >>>>>>>>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I >>>>>>>>> wore >>>>>>>>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on >>>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>>> night. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>>>>>>>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it >>>>>>>>> rude >>>>>>>>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>>>>>>>> wait until you are invited? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put >>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>>>>>>>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>>>>>>>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>>>>>>>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>>>>>>>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there >>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>>>>>>>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>>>>>>>> myself as number one. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand >>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>> anyone can give is their opinion. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40studen >>>> ts.pccua.edu >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paulos%40gmail. >>>> com >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%40gmail.com >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacucco%40verizo >>>> n.net >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealbloodworth%40gmail.com >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 15:16:45 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 08:16:45 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] [Ncabs] Spring 2011 Student Slate! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I second what's been said by arielle and add that this is very strong stuff! read, enjoy, share, and repeat! Darian On 3/26/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hello all, > > I am very pleased to be sending you the latest issue of the Student > Slate, the quarterly publication of the National Association of Blind > Students! I believe this is one of our best issues to date, so please > take some time to read and enjoy it. > > Best, > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 15:37:34 2011 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 11:37:34 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] [Ncabs] Spring 2011 Student Slate! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0635E9730A4A47E79375FAD4D338E195@AnjelinaPC> Will this edition be on the website? For some reason my email client stripped the attachment. Thanks Anjelina -----Original Message----- From: Darian Smith Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 11:16 AM To: North Carolina Association of Blind Students List Cc: gabs ; Professionals in Blindness Education Division List ; Minnesota Students ; Kentucky Students ; Illinois Students ; Michigan ; blindkid ; utahabs at nfbnet.org ; Nebraska ; New Hampshire Students ; List for NABS State Presidents ; kansas-blind-students at nfbnet.org ; Kansas Students ; Florida Students ; California Students ; Colorado Students ; massabs at nfbnet.org ; Louisiana Students ; Ohio ; New Mexico Association of Blind Students ; New Jersey Students ; Nyabs ; Utah Students ; National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; Virginia Students ; Missouri ; Tennessee Students ; Arizona Students Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Ncabs] Spring 2011 Student Slate! I second what's been said by arielle and add that this is very strong stuff! read, enjoy, share, and repeat! Darian On 3/26/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: > Hello all, > > I am very pleased to be sending you the latest issue of the Student > Slate, the quarterly publication of the National Association of Blind > Students! I believe this is one of our best issues to date, so please > take some time to read and enjoy it. > > Best, > Arielle Silverman > President, National Association of Blind Students > -- Darian Smith Skype: The_Blind_Truth Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. — Robert Byrne _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com Anjelina From mcikeyc at aol.com Sun Mar 27 15:38:35 2011 From: mcikeyc at aol.com (Michelle Clark) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 11:38:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <201103271538.p2RFcc8v032747@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> Hello, I agree. Many times, sighted persons just do not have a clue as to what to do or how to act. I personally feel that often I as the blind person must take the first move to make people be comfortable. In the Bible, there is a scripture that states "To have friends, one must first show themselves friendly". I take that attitude and often am successful. On last week, I left a job in which I held for four months to move on to another offer that better suited my needs. On the last few days in which I was there, there were emails, hugs, and visits from others who just wanted to wish me good luck. Some even took my email, Face book info, and telephone number. I left there with tears in my eyes because I did not know how many friends I had made in that short amount of time. In all, I just made myself friendly and walked around, into person's offices to speak, initially I was just lost, and made sure I spoke most times when I heard something while in the halls; Even if I had to speak first. The greatest thing I did to bridge the understanding gap was to make a dish for an International Lunch the department had. I had to write a short story about myself. I took the pan home empty. It worked for me! I know it can work for you. Michelle From nabs.president at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 16:08:09 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 10:08:09 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] [Ncabs] Spring 2011 Student Slate! In-Reply-To: <0635E9730A4A47E79375FAD4D338E195@AnjelinaPC> References: <0635E9730A4A47E79375FAD4D338E195@AnjelinaPC> Message-ID: Yes it will be. Arielle On 3/27/11, Anjelina wrote: > Will this edition be on the website? For some reason my email client > stripped the attachment. > Thanks > > Anjelina > -----Original Message----- > From: Darian Smith > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 11:16 AM > To: North Carolina Association of Blind Students List > Cc: gabs ; Professionals in Blindness Education Division List ; Minnesota > Students ; Kentucky Students ; Illinois Students ; Michigan ; blindkid ; > utahabs at nfbnet.org ; Nebraska ; New Hampshire Students ; List for NABS State > Presidents ; kansas-blind-students at nfbnet.org ; Kansas Students ; Florida > Students ; California Students ; Colorado Students ; massabs at nfbnet.org ; > Louisiana Students ; Ohio ; New Mexico Association of Blind Students ; New > Jersey Students ; Nyabs ; Utah Students ; National Association of Blind > Students mailing list ; Virginia Students ; Missouri ; Tennessee Students ; > Arizona Students > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] [Ncabs] Spring 2011 Student Slate! > > I second what's been said by arielle and add that this is very strong > stuff! read, enjoy, share, and repeat! > Darian > > On 3/26/11, Arielle Silverman wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> I am very pleased to be sending you the latest issue of the Student >> Slate, the quarterly publication of the National Association of Blind >> Students! I believe this is one of our best issues to date, so please >> take some time to read and enjoy it. >> >> Best, >> Arielle Silverman >> President, National Association of Blind Students >> > > > -- > Darian Smith > Skype: The_Blind_Truth > Windows Live: Lightningrod2010 at live.com > Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/goldengateace > > "The purpose of life is a life of purpose. > > — Robert Byrne > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com > > > Anjelina > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 16:53:35 2011 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 12:53:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: <201103271538.p2RFcc8v032747@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> References: <201103271538.p2RFcc8v032747@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi, Kerri and all, This is an interesting discussion, and I think everyone has made some great points. I would just like to add that blindness can become a much smaller social barrier when you have some common interests with the people you are interacting with. I know that it is much harder to find such people when you are no longer in school, but perhaps you could find some kind of church/community group to join (choir, book clubs, community service organizations, etc.). Also, take the initiative to socialize at work-- If there is someone you get along well with and seem to have a lot in common, why not suggest getting coffee or hang out outside of work? Perhaps you could even invite her to go to the bar/restaurant you frequent. Finally, I want to echo what Kirt (and a few others) to say that blindness may not be the only factor involved here. I have sat alone on occasion in college dining halls simply because my close friends weren't around and others would rather stick with their own groups, but I know that many sighted people have had similar experiences. I also know many sighted people who have difficulty making new friends after college, because it is harder to meet people who are in the similar age range and interested in similar things. It is true that many people may be hesitant to interact with us because we are blind, and sometimes our blindness does make it harder to reach out in a crowded setting (we may not be able to hear who is around so would have to wait until others to greet us), but it is definitely not the only determinant of our social experiences. Hope this helps and good luck! Katie On 3/27/11, Michelle Clark wrote: > Hello, > > I agree. Many times, sighted persons just do not have a clue as to what to > do or how to act. I personally feel that often I as the blind person must > take the first move to make people be comfortable. > > In the Bible, there is a scripture that states "To have friends, one must > first show themselves friendly". I take that attitude and often am > successful. > > On last week, I left a job in which I held for four months to move on to > another offer that better suited my needs. On the last few days in which I > was there, there were emails, hugs, and visits from others who just wanted > to wish me good luck. Some even took my email, Face book info, and telephone > number. I left there with tears in my eyes because I did not know how many > friends I had made in that short amount of time. > > In all, I just made myself friendly and walked around, into person's offices > to speak, initially I was just lost, and made sure I spoke most times when I > heard something while in the halls; Even if I had to speak first. > > The greatest thing I did to bridge the understanding gap was to make a dish > for an International Lunch the department had. I had to write a short story > about myself. I took the pan home empty. > > It worked for me! I know it can work for you. > > Michelle > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 17:20:31 2011 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 13:20:31 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: References: <201103271538.p2RFcc8v032747@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <0DE78F3A4A5C40EEA72B9EE75EA6D2CA@AnjelinaPC> Katie, you make a lot of valid points. I spoke to a sighted friend about how she would react, and she said this is common among sighted groups; this isn't exclusive to blindness. She'll see a friend/acquaintance, stop and say hi then move onto what she was originally doing. Not inviting the person isn't in anyway a sign of exclusion or disrespect. She recommended inviting the person to call or text when wanting to do something another time. I asked how she'd feel if someone invited themselves into a group and she said it'd be a bit awkward depending on the friendship. She'd feel obligated to say yes, which in some circles might make the social experience forced. There isn't an across the board answer for all social situations. As Jedi said, it comes down to your judgment. -----Original Message----- From: Katie Wang Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 12:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People Hi, Kerri and all, This is an interesting discussion, and I think everyone has made some great points. I would just like to add that blindness can become a much smaller social barrier when you have some common interests with the people you are interacting with. I know that it is much harder to find such people when you are no longer in school, but perhaps you could find some kind of church/community group to join (choir, book clubs, community service organizations, etc.). Also, take the initiative to socialize at work-- If there is someone you get along well with and seem to have a lot in common, why not suggest getting coffee or hang out outside of work? Perhaps you could even invite her to go to the bar/restaurant you frequent. Finally, I want to echo what Kirt (and a few others) to say that blindness may not be the only factor involved here. I have sat alone on occasion in college dining halls simply because my close friends weren't around and others would rather stick with their own groups, but I know that many sighted people have had similar experiences. I also know many sighted people who have difficulty making new friends after college, because it is harder to meet people who are in the similar age range and interested in similar things. It is true that many people may be hesitant to interact with us because we are blind, and sometimes our blindness does make it harder to reach out in a crowded setting (we may not be able to hear who is around so would have to wait until others to greet us), but it is definitely not the only determinant of our social experiences. Hope this helps and good luck! Katie On 3/27/11, Michelle Clark wrote: > Hello, > > I agree. Many times, sighted persons just do not have a clue as to what to > do or how to act. I personally feel that often I as the blind person must > take the first move to make people be comfortable. > > In the Bible, there is a scripture that states "To have friends, one must > first show themselves friendly". I take that attitude and often am > successful. > > On last week, I left a job in which I held for four months to move on to > another offer that better suited my needs. On the last few days in which I > was there, there were emails, hugs, and visits from others who just wanted > to wish me good luck. Some even took my email, Face book info, and > telephone > number. I left there with tears in my eyes because I did not know how many > friends I had made in that short amount of time. > > In all, I just made myself friendly and walked around, into person's > offices > to speak, initially I was just lost, and made sure I spoke most times when > I > heard something while in the halls; Even if I had to speak first. > > The greatest thing I did to bridge the understanding gap was to make a > dish > for an International Lunch the department had. I had to write a short > story > about myself. I took the pan home empty. > > It worked for me! I know it can work for you. > > Michelle > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com Anjelina From dsmithnfb at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 17:35:38 2011 From: dsmithnfb at gmail.com (Darian Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 10:35:38 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] nabs membership conference calls today! Message-ID: Hi all, Just a quick reminder that we will be having two conference calls today! (well, maybe one and a half, if you want to think about it that way). the first call is at 6:30 ET or3:30 PT (depending on the coast), and will be a continuation of the summer programs call. We will have BLIND inc and LCB reps on for your benifit. They will talk about their summer programs for blind middle, high school and college youth. The second call, to begin at 7p.m. ET, or 4p.m. PT (again, depending on your coastal bias) will mark the return of the training centers call. This call will be for those who are interested in learning more about the three nfb training centers known as The Louisiana Center for the Blind, The Colorado Center for the Blind, and Blindness Learning in New Dimensions Incorporated (BLIND Inc). We are excited to have current students from these three world-class training facilities as our guest speakers, who will share their stories and answer your questions about the challanges and expiriences of training center life. So please come with your questions, and come ready to have them answered! We are looking forward to having you on this call! to recap: what?: Summer programs: a conference call pt. 2 and Training centers conference call: the sequel - Who?:sponsored by the National Association of Blind students (via the nabs membership committee) When?: today! March 27th at 6:30 ET Where?:conference call! (712) 775- 7100 passcode: 257 963 Why?: Because We in the National Federation of the blind believe that success as a blind person means mastery of the skills of blindness, and these centers are a great way to pick up some pretty awesome alternitive techniques! (and you know you want your monthly fix of nabs awesomeness too!) See you there, The nabs membership committee. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sun Mar 27 20:06:03 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 16:06:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6865AB80FC7F4EAD93D5B6236F3FE5B9@OwnerPC> Kerry, They don't invite you because they already have their group of friends. Either invite yourself to sit with them or better yet if the girls live in the same complex, why not go with them? Get a ride from them and go out and become friends. If you are going the same place as them, its not a big deal. I had others treat me this way in the college dining hall. I'd often be alone and students would come up for a brief period of time. I think its because they have their own friends or own plans. I think its common for people to make brief encounters like that. If you want friends, you have to find some common interest. I struggled making friends; its not easy. But going out alone won't help get those friends. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kerri Kosten Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 5:48 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; Robin Ayers Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People Hi All! I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on Facebook. As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant that I like to go to on the weekends. I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or something like that. I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one of them works at the radio station with me. I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last night. I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in the dining hall at the college she attends. Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always wait until you are invited? How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you in a negative mood/frame of mind? The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make things easier because then I would have never known they were there in the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of myself as number one. Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all anyone can give is their opinion. Kerri _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From kerrik2006 at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 20:33:10 2011 From: kerrik2006 at gmail.com (Kerri Kosten) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 16:33:10 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: <6865AB80FC7F4EAD93D5B6236F3FE5B9@OwnerPC> References: <6865AB80FC7F4EAD93D5B6236F3FE5B9@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi Anjelina, Ashley and All: First, regarding the girls who live in the same apartment complex, I had no idea they were going to Crockett's or I would've asked them. I was already there and had been for quite a while before they came in. Anjelina and others, that is a great point about inviting them to do something else or telling them to text or call me if they would want to do anything else. I admit I am guilty of complaining that they do not invite me into their group but never really thought much about inviting them to do something else sometime. That may help sort of break the ice and allow them to see that I like to do the same things as everyone else. It may also show them that I do in fact see them as a friend outside of Crockett's. I guess I've just gotten so used to going places alone that I never really thought to try inviting them instead of just seeing them out. For example, with the two girls who live in my apartment complex I could invite them to the pool. I also know at least one of them likes Starbucks so maybe going to Starbucks one day would be fun. Anjelina, thanks for getting a sighted person's perspective. That is interesting and helps me feel better about the situation. I am glad as others have said this is not specifically related to blindness and that sighted people also struggle with this and receive the same treatment. Thanks! Kerri On 3/27/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Kerry, > They don't invite you because they already have their group of friends. > Either invite yourself to sit with them or better yet if the girls live in > the same complex, why not go with them? Get a ride from them and go out and > become friends. If you are going the same place as them, its not a big > deal. > > I had others treat me this way in the college > dining hall. I'd often be alone and students would come up for a brief > period of time. I think its because they have their own friends or own > plans. > I think its common for people to make brief encounters like that. If you > want friends, you have to find some common interest. I struggled making > friends; its not easy. > But going out alone won't help get those friends. > > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kerri Kosten > Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 5:48 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list ; Robin Ayers > Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People > > Hi All! > > I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing > opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on > Facebook. > > As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant > that I like to go to on the weekends. > > I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am > sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say > "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or > something like that. > > I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say > goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I > saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one > of them works at the radio station with me. > > I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. > I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch > my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, > always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and > back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a > lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed > back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I > was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater > vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore > for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last > night. > > > I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also > totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in > the dining hall at the college she attends. > > Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? > > In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude > to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always > wait until you are invited? > > How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you > in a negative mood/frame of mind? > > The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and > then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it > really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at > least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and > not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make > things easier because then I would have never known they were there in > the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if > nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of > myself as number one. > > Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all > anyone can give is their opinion. > > Kerri > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik2006%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Sun Mar 27 20:58:58 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 15:58:58 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Socializing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I can't help but notice the comments suggesting the awkwardness of social interaction is unique to blind people, or that it is more difficult for blind people. I was sighted for 22 years, and I have been blind for eight. While I do admit much of our issues with socializing as blind people does stem from our blindness and society's inability to understand we are like them, the nervousness and awkwardness of socializing is not at all unique to the blind. Sighted people experience the exact same issues described in these post. While the reasoning may be different at times, the feelings and emotions are the same. Personalities develop through our environments, and how we learn to interact with people. Something like blindness does not necessarily contribute to our personality. If you were not expected to cultivate relationships, or you were not encouraged to participate in activities due to your blindness, I would accept that blindness played a contributing factor in your social awkwardness. This being said though, blindness, in and of itself, does not shape who we are. I know some will argue this, but it is not my main point. As blind people, we should not feel that engaging with our peers is more of a challenge than it is for the sighted. Lots and lots of people find it difficult to fit in, and many of these people are sighted. As a fully sighted teen, I often found it difficult to socialize with my peers. I was still gaining a sense of myself, and I wasn't always sure where I fit in. Now in my early 30's, I no longer feel awkward about who I am, but it can be nerve-racking to socialize with new people. Putting yourself out there and introducing yourself to new people is not easy. If you never engage with people though, you do not develop relationships that help continue build you as a person. And I am not sure why some feel it is rude to approach people and try to join in. Perhaps walking into a restaurant and sitting down at an unknown table with people would be a bit odd, but there is nothing wrong with approaching a group especially in a setting like a bar or college activity. And if you know people in the group, there should be no problem in approaching them. I am not writing this to be argumentative, but I want to stress that any awkwardness or discomfort you may feel in social settings, is felt by all people, blind or sighted. Do not think it is easier to socialize just because you are sighted. This is not true at all. What you feel as a blind person, is felt by many who are sighted too. We say as blind people we can do all the same things, and this is true for socializing too. Don't worry about how people may view your blindness. In time, those interested in building real relationships with you will discover that you are a normal human being who shares common interest. Sighted or blind, we create our own lives. We make decisions and shape our futures, and it is ourselves that hold us back from experiencing the world. I am not saying it is easy to socialize, but it isn't easy for anyone. Even the most extraverted person feels some awkwardness on some level, and usually this accounts for their extraverted displays. Just do it, as Nike says. It still says that, right? *smile* Bridgit From freespirit328 at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 04:31:38 2011 From: freespirit328 at gmail.com (Jennifer Aberdeen) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 00:31:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People References: <20110327043626.32210.7626@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: <92CD14A32E6741B9A194DBC511948737@Gateway> Hi all, well, I know how you feel. I had similar experiences all my life, especially in school. It used to bother me tremendously, but it doesn't anymore. I've gotten to the point where I might go to a restaurant with a friend or something where I think I might run into someone I know, and on a few accasions, someone came over to say hello to me. For example, I was at the bike path once, and someone I knew from high school rode by on his bike and said hi. No, it wasn't a conversation, but that person acknowledged that he saw and recognized me. That made me very happy. My next attempt will be to meet some friends from high school at a place where they all hang out. I'm long out of high school, but many of the people I knew in high school still hang out together and are on my friends list on facebook. As a matter of fact, I recently took a small leap at this and told my friends on Facebook that I would be at the mall if anyone wanted to say hi. Also, if someone on facebook says something that I feel I have in common with them, I comment. A bit different from face to face get togethers, but it is along the same line I think. I've learned that the worse someone can say is no or say nothing at all. I would say if you are in a place where there are people you know, don't hesitate to at least say hello. You never know, they might invite you to sit with them. If they don't, it's their loss, not yours. Don't know if any of this helps, but perhaps some of it is useful. Jen ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! www.youravon.com/jaberdeen Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative freespirit328 at gmail.com 401-644-5607 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jedi" To: Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 12:36 AM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People > No worries, it happens to the sighted as well. Short interactions like > that are pretty common, especially when there are several groups of people > a place like a bar or coffee house. The way to deal with it is to take a > friend with you so you don't feel so lonesome. Otherwise, go to the bar > itself as has already been suggested. > > If you get the feeling like it's appropriate, don't feel bad about asking > if you can join a group. I do it all the time and have made some friends > that way. Sometimes, you have get the ball rolling with folks, especially > those who are a little clueless on blind/sighted relations. Just use your > better judgement. > > Respectfully, > Jedi > > Original message: >> Kirt, good post! >> Blessings, Joshua > >> On 3/26/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>> Kerry, >>> It's happened to me before, I think that's something a lot of blind >>> people can relate to. For me especially in High School it was the >>> hardest cause I had friends but my "group" from Junior High and the >>> first part of high school kinda fell apart so my friends were kinda >>> all over the place and it was hard. >>> That doesn't happen as much to me anymore, but that's probably me >>> more than anything. I'm fine taking someone's arm, especially in a >>> restaurant or crowded kind of place. And...the way I see it, it's >>> better to get rides with people and only pay for cabs when you have to >>> or when you're looking to get away and not be with friends. I bum >>> rides off of people all the time, especially if the person's going the >>> same place I am. >>> But that's just me. Honestly, the more I've just been proactive and >>> asked if I could sit with friends when I find them in my college food >>> court, or invite people to go to games with me, or whatever, the more >>> success I've had. I honestly think a lot of the confusion comes from >>> sighted people not knowing how to handle a blind person who likes >>> going out and doing stuff on his/her own...people take for granted how >>> nice independence is. It's like...I don't think most sighted people >>> would feel liberated going to a college basketball game by themselves, >>> going to a bar/restaurant alone, independently going to a movie >>> theater and buying a drink, that sort of thing. But for us blind >>> people, if we're still learning those skills and gaining confidence >>> with independent travel, we like going places by ourselves to show >>> ourselves we can. At least I do. And I think lots of times, sighted >>> people don't really get that. >>> That being said, I think it's also important to remember we're not >>> that different from our sighted friends. And just because they may >>> not understand why we feel the need to sometimes go places totally by >>> ourselves, that doesn't mean they can't be our friends. But I do >>> think it's ok to go places with sighted friends. Honestly, I wouldn't >>> be surprised if those people who came and talked to you thought you >>> wanted to be alone because you weren't with a group of people. >>> Independence is great...but I think real independence is the freedom >>> to go where you want to go, hang out with who you want to hang out >>> with, even when that means you take someone's arm or find a ride >>> somewhere. Heck...some of my good friends now were people who came up >>> to me, thought I was lost, and walked with me for a while, or helped >>> me find the line I wanted in the food court, or find a room in a >>> building, or whatever. Even when sometimes I could've done it on my >>> own. >>> So in conclusion, don't be afraid to ask people if you can join >>> them. Don't be afraid to go places with sighted people, who you >>> trust, even if that means taking an arm or letting them drive. And >>> most of all, don't give up. Most sighted people are kind, friendly >>> and courteous. I think you'll find that, once they know you for a >>> while and accept you, blindness will become less and less of an issue. >>> It won't go away completely, but it doesn't have to be a social >>> barrier. So...I'd just say trust in yourself and don't be afraid to >>> take help sometimes. Because, a lot of the time, a sighted person >>> trying to help you is wanting a friend as much as you are...I've met >>> some of my best friends that way. >>> Good luck, >>> Kirt > >>> On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >>>> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >>>> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >>>> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >>>> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >>>> Thanks, Joshua > >>>> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>> Hi All! > >>>>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>>>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >>>>> Facebook. > >>>>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >>>>> that I like to go to on the weekends. > >>>>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>>>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>>>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>>>> something like that. > >>>>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >>>>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I >>>>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one >>>>> of them works at the radio station with me. > >>>>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. >>>>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch >>>>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >>>>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>>>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a >>>>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>>>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>>>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >>>>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >>>>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >>>>> night. > > >>>>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>>>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in >>>>> the dining hall at the college she attends. > >>>>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? > >>>>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >>>>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>>>> wait until you are invited? > >>>>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you >>>>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? > >>>>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>>>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>>>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>>>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >>>>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>>>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there in >>>>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>>>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>>>> myself as number one. > >>>>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all >>>>> anyone can give is their opinion. > >>>>> Kerri > >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > > >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > > >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu > > >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net > > -- > Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit > www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 04:58:16 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 22:58:16 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] majority In-Reply-To: References: <20110327014237.31476.19801@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> Message-ID: I totally agree with Kurt. I also think it is good to recall the distinction between membership and active membership. I would consider anyone who attends NFB events, or who contributes to any of our causes, to be a member of our organization. In fact, I personally would consider all of you to be members of the National Association of Blind Students because you are subscribed to our listserv, whether or not you have ever paid your $5 dues. However, only active members are the ones who have the authority to vote on policies or to run for elected leadership positions. To become an active member, you must meet the criteria set forth in the constitution, and often must make a small financial contribution (i.e. pay dues). We place no limits on how many sighted people come to our events or help our cause; we only limit the percentage of our active, voting membership that can be sighted, to ensure that our decisionmaking membership is made up predominantly of the people we represent as an organization. Arielle On 3/27/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: > Jedi, > I can only speak from my experience...but I don't think blindness > really shaped my world view all that much. I don't think it gave me > any really significant conceptual barriers to overcome, I've been > blind since birth and I guess it's effected me some. But I don't > really feel different from my sighted friends because of my > blindness...I don't think it changes my personality or likes or > dislikes or who I am or whatever. But that was kind of a little off > topic, so I'll go back to what you brought up. > I think it's reasonable to say the NFB should have blind people as a > majority, with the possibility for exceptions to be made on the > chapter level. It's like...the American Bar Assiociation represents > lawyers, so I'd be shocked if they allowed the majority of their > members to not practice law. That's not trying to promote inequality > between lawyers and citizens at large, it's just that lawyers know > best how to represent lawyers. Just like the NFL players' union we've > all been hearing so much about lately is made up of NFL players. > Imagine if any interested fan, or coach, or manager, or radio > announcer, or sports analyst could join the players' union? It's not > the same situation, because there definitely is a value for sighted > members in the NFB, but the same principal applies. The players' > union represents players, so it's made up of players. The National > Education Association is made up mostly of teachers, because it's a > group that represents teachers. I think any special interest group, > especially a group representing citizens with a disability, has the > right to demand the majority of its' members have the particular > disability. That's not prejudice...heck, if there ever were such a > thing as a National Federation of the Sighted, (I know it's > rediculous, bear with me), I think it would be perfectly reasonable > for them to have rules requiring a sighted majority because they'd be > representing the interests of the sighted. Bad analogy, but I think > it gets my point across. Have I lost you guys yet? > Respectfully yours, > Kirt > > On 3/26/11, Jedi wrote: >> Bridget, >> >> As a case of history, something like what you describe really did >> happen. There are several blindness organizations in Canada of the >> blind. One of them, now called the National federation of the Blind >> Alliance for Equality, started out as the first Canadian organization >> similar to the NFB in the U.S. At some point in their history, they >> allowed sighted people to vote without any restrictions on ratios of >> blind to sighted. At some point, the number of sighted persons did >> outweigh the number of blind persons in the group, and the sighted >> really did change the direction of the organization such that the >> original integrity of the group's purpose was compromised. It wasn't >> because the sighted could see; that wasn't the problem. Instead, it's >> that sighted people (the majority of them) really don't get blindness >> on a fundamental level because it's contrary to their experience of the >> world as sighted persons. The sighted (for the most part) tend to see >> the world through their perspective and will act accordingly just as we >> act accordingly with our perspective. Though no harm is meant, the >> sighted may choose policies that aren't good for blind people. The >> Google Aps project is a case in point: no one means to discriminate >> against the blind; it just didn't occur to sighted users and designers >> that the blind can't get at the applications because they've really got >> no cause to understand. Most sighted people don't understand what the >> problem is with touch screens because it doesn't occur to them that >> they're a problem for the blind even though it should be quite obvious. >> Meanwhile, the problems that sighted people envision related to >> blindness are things we've overcome ages ago, but they haven't been a >> part of that process so they simply don't know. Yes, we can educate the >> sighted, but it takes a special sighted person to totally deconstruct >> their perspective and taken-for-granted assumptions about the world for >> them to get it. Yes, some blind people must go through a similar >> deconstruction, but I imagine that such a deconstruction may be more >> difficult for sighted persons in some ways since they adhere pretty >> strongly to a very visual reality. For the blind who must relearn, I >> wonder if it isn't a tad easier because there's a gut level >> understanding that a preference for vision is pretty arbitrary in >> nature. Maybe I'm wrong, and I definitely think I'm not doing myself >> justice. What do you all think? >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> But does it matter if the majority is blind, or should it matter that >>> the majority holds to Federation philosophy? >> >>> Yes we are the blind speaking for the blind-- as it should be. And we >>> should maintain that a majority of our leadership be blind, but when did >>> we decide that membership come at a cost? Are we not trying to change >>> what it means to be blind? Does this not include attempting to reach >>> out to the blind and sighted alike in hopes they are willing to learn >>> and embrace our philosophy? Why would this look bad, or change the >>> focus of the organization? Shouldn't it be about a collective voice >>> furthering Federation goals and causes? >> >>> We walk a fine line between independence and reverse prejudice. And as >>> Miranda described, how was it fair that her chapter take a head count of >>> the blind and sighted just to say yes or no to a sighted member wanting >>> to join? How does this look to someone who presumeably was ready to >>> join the NFB and do their part? >> >>> I have heard the argument that a sighted majority could vote against our >>> current policies and change the organization, but is not this judging >>> sighted people just because they can "see?" What is to stop a blind >>> majority from doing the same? Not all blind Federationist are "on >>> board" with every aspect of the organization. Isn't it making an >>> awfully big assumption to claim a sighted majority, who chose to join a >>> progressive group, would storm in and change our direction, even though >>> they willingly joined a progressive organization? >> >>> I am not suggesting we try to have more sighted people over blind >>> people, though if this ever did happen, it would be a sad state of >>> affairs that few blind people cared enough to join. >> >>> For a group seeking equality, it seems odd that we would exclude people >>> based on their eyesight. Sound familiar? >> >>> Bridgit >> >>> Message: 4 >>> Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:09:06 -0400 >>> From: Jorge Paez >>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind Majority >>> Message-ID: <15D2C523-E8DC-441F-A903-279641EEA4A4 at mac.com> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII >> >>> Miranda: >>> I understand your points, >>> but under the constitution, going over majority would mean the sighted >>> have the major vote, which would defeat the NFB's purpose for existing. >> >> >>> Jorge >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From nabs.president at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 05:16:51 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 23:16:51 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: <92CD14A32E6741B9A194DBC511948737@Gateway> References: <20110327043626.32210.7626@domU-12-31-38-07-3C-65.compute-1.internal> <92CD14A32E6741B9A194DBC511948737@Gateway> Message-ID: Hi Kerri, I too can relate to your situation. I did have a few sighted friends in college, and would sometimes go out for coffee or meals with them, but I often got the sense that I was their "B-list friend" or just someone they wanted to hang out with if all their other friends were busy. I do think that blindness can make the initial development of friendships with sighted people more difficult, because we can't use a lot of the nonverbal communication cues they use. If you think back to how you first became friends with your current friends (blind or sighted), friendships often start with repeated interactions and conversations, either one-on-one or in groups. For us as blind people, it can be hard to try to find specific people in a group that we want to be friends with, or to show them via eye contact or other nonverbal signals that we want to talk with them. This problem is even more complicated when it comes to flirting and dating, because in these situations there is a certain expectation to try to be subtle or coy while still communicating that you are interested in someone. I remember when I was younger (especially around high-school age, but also in college) being so frustrated when I would meet a cute boy and want to try to strategically sit next to him or talk to him, but I couldn't do that easily without drawing a lot of attention to myself by asking where he was. Anyway, getting back to the current issue, I do think it probably doesn't hurt to ask to join their group, or at least to ask what they've been doing this weekend or something else to make conversation. I also agree that it's easier to make friends in settings where you have a common interest or occupation, such as at work, in a class or in a club meeting. I know it's cliche, but getting involved on campus or in your community doing things you enjoy is a great way to meet people and have things to discuss that you both find interesting. Organizing a social activity or even just something like a study group is also a good way to get to know people and to be the inviter, not the invitee. As for being independent vs. getting rides, etc., I'd say just do what feels best. If someone is going to the same place as you and doesn't live far away, it won't be too big of a deal to ask for a ride. There's a difference between asking a friend to pick you up to go to the same bar together and asking your friend to take you shopping or to your dentist appointment. And while I agree it's not necessary to be independent just to show others you can be, it's also not necessary to accept help you don't want just to be friendly. Good luck and keep us posted. Arielle On 3/27/11, Jennifer Aberdeen wrote: > Hi all, > > well, I know how you feel. I had similar experiences all my life, especially > in school. It used to bother me tremendously, but it doesn't anymore. > > I've gotten to the point where I might go to a restaurant with a friend or > something where I think I might run into someone I know, and on a few > accasions, someone came over to say hello to me. For example, I was at the > bike path once, and someone I knew from high school rode by on his bike and > said hi. No, it wasn't a conversation, but that person acknowledged that he > saw and recognized me. That made me very happy. > > My next attempt will be to meet some friends from high school at a place > where they all hang out. I'm long out of high school, but many of the people > I knew in high school still hang out together and are on my friends list on > facebook. As a matter of fact, I recently took a small leap at this and told > my friends on Facebook that I would be at the mall if anyone wanted to say > hi. Also, if someone on facebook says something that I feel I have in common > with them, I comment. A bit different from face to face get togethers, but > it is along the same line I think. > > I've learned that the worse someone can say is no or say nothing at all. I > would say if you are in a place where there are people you know, don't > hesitate to at least say hello. You never know, they might invite you to sit > with them. If they don't, it's their loss, not yours. > > Don't know if any of this helps, but perhaps some of it is useful. > > Jen > ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ > Shop my store for the latest and greatest in beauty and wellness products! > www.youravon.com/jaberdeen > > Jennifer Aberdeen, AVON Independent Sales Representative > freespirit328 at gmail.com > 401-644-5607 > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jedi" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 12:36 AM > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People > > >> No worries, it happens to the sighted as well. Short interactions like >> that are pretty common, especially when there are several groups of people >> >> a place like a bar or coffee house. The way to deal with it is to take a >> friend with you so you don't feel so lonesome. Otherwise, go to the bar >> itself as has already been suggested. >> >> If you get the feeling like it's appropriate, don't feel bad about asking >> if you can join a group. I do it all the time and have made some friends >> that way. Sometimes, you have get the ball rolling with folks, especially >> those who are a little clueless on blind/sighted relations. Just use your >> better judgement. >> >> Respectfully, >> Jedi >> >> Original message: >>> Kirt, good post! >>> Blessings, Joshua >> >>> On 3/26/11, Kirt Manwaring wrote: >>>> Kerry, >>>> It's happened to me before, I think that's something a lot of blind >>>> people can relate to. For me especially in High School it was the >>>> hardest cause I had friends but my "group" from Junior High and the >>>> first part of high school kinda fell apart so my friends were kinda >>>> all over the place and it was hard. >>>> That doesn't happen as much to me anymore, but that's probably me >>>> more than anything. I'm fine taking someone's arm, especially in a >>>> restaurant or crowded kind of place. And...the way I see it, it's >>>> better to get rides with people and only pay for cabs when you have to >>>> or when you're looking to get away and not be with friends. I bum >>>> rides off of people all the time, especially if the person's going the >>>> same place I am. >>>> But that's just me. Honestly, the more I've just been proactive and >>>> asked if I could sit with friends when I find them in my college food >>>> court, or invite people to go to games with me, or whatever, the more >>>> success I've had. I honestly think a lot of the confusion comes from >>>> sighted people not knowing how to handle a blind person who likes >>>> going out and doing stuff on his/her own...people take for granted how >>>> nice independence is. It's like...I don't think most sighted people >>>> would feel liberated going to a college basketball game by themselves, >>>> going to a bar/restaurant alone, independently going to a movie >>>> theater and buying a drink, that sort of thing. But for us blind >>>> people, if we're still learning those skills and gaining confidence >>>> with independent travel, we like going places by ourselves to show >>>> ourselves we can. At least I do. And I think lots of times, sighted >>>> people don't really get that. >>>> That being said, I think it's also important to remember we're not >>>> that different from our sighted friends. And just because they may >>>> not understand why we feel the need to sometimes go places totally by >>>> ourselves, that doesn't mean they can't be our friends. But I do >>>> think it's ok to go places with sighted friends. Honestly, I wouldn't >>>> be surprised if those people who came and talked to you thought you >>>> wanted to be alone because you weren't with a group of people. >>>> Independence is great...but I think real independence is the freedom >>>> to go where you want to go, hang out with who you want to hang out >>>> with, even when that means you take someone's arm or find a ride >>>> somewhere. Heck...some of my good friends now were people who came up >>>> to me, thought I was lost, and walked with me for a while, or helped >>>> me find the line I wanted in the food court, or find a room in a >>>> building, or whatever. Even when sometimes I could've done it on my >>>> own. >>>> So in conclusion, don't be afraid to ask people if you can join >>>> them. Don't be afraid to go places with sighted people, who you >>>> trust, even if that means taking an arm or letting them drive. And >>>> most of all, don't give up. Most sighted people are kind, friendly >>>> and courteous. I think you'll find that, once they know you for a >>>> while and accept you, blindness will become less and less of an issue. >>>> It won't go away completely, but it doesn't have to be a social >>>> barrier. So...I'd just say trust in yourself and don't be afraid to >>>> take help sometimes. Because, a lot of the time, a sighted person >>>> trying to help you is wanting a friend as much as you are...I've met >>>> some of my best friends that way. >>>> Good luck, >>>> Kirt >> >>>> On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >>>>> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >>>>> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >>>>> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >>>>> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >>>>> Thanks, Joshua >> >>>>> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>> Hi All! >> >>>>>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>>>>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this on >>>>>> Facebook. >> >>>>>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular bar/restaurant >>>>>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >> >>>>>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>>>>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>>>>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>>>>> something like that. >> >>>>>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully say >>>>>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night I >>>>>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and one >>>>>> of them works at the radio station with me. >> >>>>>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get everywhere. >>>>>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to catch >>>>>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for rides, >>>>>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>>>>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is a >>>>>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>>>>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>>>>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a sweater >>>>>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I wore >>>>>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on last >>>>>> night. >> >> >>>>>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>>>>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her in >>>>>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >> >>>>>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >> >>>>>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it rude >>>>>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>>>>> wait until you are invited? >> >>>>>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put you >>>>>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >> >>>>>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>>>>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>>>>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>>>>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past and >>>>>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>>>>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there in >>>>>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>>>>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>>>>> myself as number one. >> >>>>>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand all >>>>>> anyone can give is their opinion. >> >>>>>> Kerri >> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com >> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester8462%40students.pccua.edu >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/loneblindjedi%40samobile.net >> >> -- >> Email services provided by the System Access Mobile Network. Visit >> www.serotek.com to learn more about accessibility anywhere. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/freespirit328%40gmail.com >> > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From ignasicambra at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 09:45:36 2011 From: ignasicambra at gmail.com (Ignasi Cambra) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 05:45:36 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: <0DE78F3A4A5C40EEA72B9EE75EA6D2CA@AnjelinaPC> References: <201103271538.p2RFcc8v032747@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> <0DE78F3A4A5C40EEA72B9EE75EA6D2CA@AnjelinaPC> Message-ID: <69808F2D-11B8-4DAE-9132-9A34C6306EF8@gmail.com> I don't think anyone thinks that it's strange for someone to stop and talk to somebody else for a couple of minutes and then leave. That's just what people do... If I'm doing something and run into someone I know I will probably say hi and then keep doing whatever I'm doing unless both me and that person happen to be bored enough that we decide to just do something together :). What's for sure is that, blind or not, people usually need to actively do something to make friends. If someone stops by and say hi and you happen to like that person in any way, then why can't you just say "hey, we should hang out sometime!" or something like that? There's really nothing wrong with that!! I play concerts in different places and find myself in situations like this often enough. I'm in a city I don't know playing with an orchestra. Let's say there's a violinist in there whom I know from when we were in school two years ago... Most likely we'll say hi to each other before one of the rehearsals, and if I have nothing to do after the concert I will most probably suggest that we go out and have dinner or something if that friend doesn't suggest it first. Am I doing that because I have no friends and my life is depressing? Well, no! I'm doing it because I haven't seen that person in a while and I feel like catching up after all this time. And that's really how that person will understand it. There's nothing wrong with actively wanting to do things with other people! It's a normal human behavior. As some people have said, I do think it's probably a better idea to go to a bar with someone. I personally don't go to bars by myself simply because it seems like a boring thing to do. If it's a bar where you know you'll meet friends because you know they're there, then great! But if not, I don't see the point of being there by myself. Cary, just like you, sighted people enjoy other people coming and talking to them and wanting to hang out with them. If you're just there expecting people to want to be your friend without doing much, they will probably not be very interested. But if they feel like you're interested in them and they see that you like hanging out with them, they will probably want to spend time with you if they like you. Really, sighted people are just normal people. Too many times on this list I see people writing about the sighted as if they were this completely different kind of people that we are trying to deal with every day. The last time I interacted with a blind person was at national convention last summer, but for all I know, it's really the same... Let us know how things go at the bar! IC On Mar 27, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Anjelina wrote: > Katie, > you make a lot of valid points. I spoke to a sighted friend about how she would react, and she said this is common among sighted groups; this isn't exclusive to blindness. She'll see a friend/acquaintance, stop and say hi then move onto what she was originally doing. Not inviting the person isn't in anyway a sign of exclusion or disrespect. > She recommended inviting the person to call or text when wanting to do something another time. > I asked how she'd feel if someone invited themselves into a group and she said it'd be a bit awkward depending on the friendship. She'd feel obligated to say yes, which in some circles might make the social experience forced. > There isn't an across the board answer for all social situations. As Jedi said, it comes down to your judgment. > -----Original Message----- From: Katie Wang > Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 12:53 PM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People > > Hi, Kerri and all, > This is an interesting discussion, and I think everyone has made > some great points. I would just like to add that blindness can become > a much smaller social barrier when you have some common interests with > the people you are interacting with. I know that it is much harder to > find such people when you are no longer in school, but perhaps you > could find some kind of church/community group to join (choir, book > clubs, community service organizations, etc.). Also, take the > initiative to socialize at work-- If there is someone you get along > well with and seem to have a lot in common, why not suggest getting > coffee or hang out outside of work? Perhaps you could even invite her > to go to the bar/restaurant you frequent. > Finally, I want to echo what Kirt (and a few others) to say that > blindness may not be the only factor involved here. I have sat alone > on occasion in college dining halls simply because my close friends > weren't around and others would rather stick with their own groups, > but I know that many sighted people have had similar experiences. I > also know many sighted people who have difficulty making new friends > after college, because it is harder to meet people who are in the > similar age range and interested in similar things. It is true that > many people may be hesitant to interact with us because we are blind, > and sometimes our blindness does make it harder to reach out in a > crowded setting (we may not be able to hear who is around so would > have to wait until others to greet us), but it is definitely not the > only determinant of our social experiences. Hope this helps and good > luck! > Katie > > > On 3/27/11, Michelle Clark wrote: >> Hello, >> >> I agree. Many times, sighted persons just do not have a clue as to what to >> do or how to act. I personally feel that often I as the blind person must >> take the first move to make people be comfortable. >> >> In the Bible, there is a scripture that states "To have friends, one must >> first show themselves friendly". I take that attitude and often am >> successful. >> >> On last week, I left a job in which I held for four months to move on to >> another offer that better suited my needs. On the last few days in which I >> was there, there were emails, hugs, and visits from others who just wanted >> to wish me good luck. Some even took my email, Face book info, and telephone >> number. I left there with tears in my eyes because I did not know how many >> friends I had made in that short amount of time. >> >> In all, I just made myself friendly and walked around, into person's offices >> to speak, initially I was just lost, and made sure I spoke most times when I >> heard something while in the halls; Even if I had to speak first. >> >> The greatest thing I did to bridge the understanding gap was to make a dish >> for an International Lunch the department had. I had to write a short story >> about myself. I took the pan home empty. >> >> It worked for me! I know it can work for you. >> >> Michelle >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com > > > Anjelina > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 18:39:39 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 12:39:39 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People In-Reply-To: <69808F2D-11B8-4DAE-9132-9A34C6306EF8@gmail.com> References: <201103271538.p2RFcc8v032747@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> <0DE78F3A4A5C40EEA72B9EE75EA6D2CA@AnjelinaPC> <69808F2D-11B8-4DAE-9132-9A34C6306EF8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah-sometimes I can't help wondering if we're going for "separate but equal" as blind people, or if we want full-on integration, period. The blind people I know really aren't different from the sighted people I know. There's no social barrier that says "you're sighted, you can't understand me, you can't relate with me on a fundamental human level cause I'm blind and you're not and that makes you unable to relate." If anything, (I'm talking generally here, there are lots of exceptions to this), it's the blind people lots of times who act like noone but blind people can relate and isolate themselves from the sighted world. Don't argue too hard, I've seen it way too much. And anyway, I've talked too much here. Kerry, good luck. I know you've got it in you. :) Best, Kirt On 3/28/11, Ignasi Cambra wrote: > I don't think anyone thinks that it's strange for someone to stop and talk > to somebody else for a couple of minutes and then leave. That's just what > people do... If I'm doing something and run into someone I know I will > probably say hi and then keep doing whatever I'm doing unless both me and > that person happen to be bored enough that we decide to just do something > together :). > What's for sure is that, blind or not, people usually need to actively do > something to make friends. If someone stops by and say hi and you happen to > like that person in any way, then why can't you just say "hey, we should > hang out sometime!" or something like that? There's really nothing wrong > with that!! > I play concerts in different places and find myself in situations like this > often enough. I'm in a city I don't know playing with an orchestra. Let's > say there's a violinist in there whom I know from when we were in school two > years ago... Most likely we'll say hi to each other before one of the > rehearsals, and if I have nothing to do after the concert I will most > probably suggest that we go out and have dinner or something if that friend > doesn't suggest it first. Am I doing that because I have no friends and my > life is depressing? Well, no! I'm doing it because I haven't seen that > person in a while and I feel like catching up after all this time. And > that's really how that person will understand it. There's nothing wrong with > actively wanting to do things with other people! It's a normal human > behavior. > As some people have said, I do think it's probably a better idea to go to a > bar with someone. I personally don't go to bars by myself simply because it > seems like a boring thing to do. If it's a bar where you know you'll meet > friends because you know they're there, then great! But if not, I don't see > the point of being there by myself. > Cary, just like you, sighted people enjoy other people coming and talking to > them and wanting to hang out with them. If you're just there expecting > people to want to be your friend without doing much, they will probably not > be very interested. But if they feel like you're interested in them and they > see that you like hanging out with them, they will probably want to spend > time with you if they like you. Really, sighted people are just normal > people. Too many times on this list I see people writing about the sighted > as if they were this completely different kind of people that we are trying > to deal with every day. The last time I interacted with a blind person was > at national convention last summer, but for all I know, it's really the > same... > Let us know how things go at the bar! > > IC > On Mar 27, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Anjelina wrote: > >> Katie, >> you make a lot of valid points. I spoke to a sighted friend about how she >> would react, and she said this is common among sighted groups; this isn't >> exclusive to blindness. She'll see a friend/acquaintance, stop and say hi >> then move onto what she was originally doing. Not inviting the person >> isn't in anyway a sign of exclusion or disrespect. >> She recommended inviting the person to call or text when wanting to do >> something another time. >> I asked how she'd feel if someone invited themselves into a group and she >> said it'd be a bit awkward depending on the friendship. She'd feel >> obligated to say yes, which in some circles might make the social >> experience forced. >> There isn't an across the board answer for all social situations. As Jedi >> said, it comes down to your judgment. >> -----Original Message----- From: Katie Wang >> Sent: Sunday, March 27, 2011 12:53 PM >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >> >> Hi, Kerri and all, >> This is an interesting discussion, and I think everyone has made >> some great points. I would just like to add that blindness can become >> a much smaller social barrier when you have some common interests with >> the people you are interacting with. I know that it is much harder to >> find such people when you are no longer in school, but perhaps you >> could find some kind of church/community group to join (choir, book >> clubs, community service organizations, etc.). Also, take the >> initiative to socialize at work-- If there is someone you get along >> well with and seem to have a lot in common, why not suggest getting >> coffee or hang out outside of work? Perhaps you could even invite her >> to go to the bar/restaurant you frequent. >> Finally, I want to echo what Kirt (and a few others) to say that >> blindness may not be the only factor involved here. I have sat alone >> on occasion in college dining halls simply because my close friends >> weren't around and others would rather stick with their own groups, >> but I know that many sighted people have had similar experiences. I >> also know many sighted people who have difficulty making new friends >> after college, because it is harder to meet people who are in the >> similar age range and interested in similar things. It is true that >> many people may be hesitant to interact with us because we are blind, >> and sometimes our blindness does make it harder to reach out in a >> crowded setting (we may not be able to hear who is around so would >> have to wait until others to greet us), but it is definitely not the >> only determinant of our social experiences. Hope this helps and good >> luck! >> Katie >> >> >> On 3/27/11, Michelle Clark wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> I agree. Many times, sighted persons just do not have a clue as to what >>> to >>> do or how to act. I personally feel that often I as the blind person must >>> take the first move to make people be comfortable. >>> >>> In the Bible, there is a scripture that states "To have friends, one must >>> first show themselves friendly". I take that attitude and often am >>> successful. >>> >>> On last week, I left a job in which I held for four months to move on to >>> another offer that better suited my needs. On the last few days in which >>> I >>> was there, there were emails, hugs, and visits from others who just >>> wanted >>> to wish me good luck. Some even took my email, Face book info, and >>> telephone >>> number. I left there with tears in my eyes because I did not know how >>> many >>> friends I had made in that short amount of time. >>> >>> In all, I just made myself friendly and walked around, into person's >>> offices >>> to speak, initially I was just lost, and made sure I spoke most times >>> when I >>> heard something while in the halls; Even if I had to speak first. >>> >>> The greatest thing I did to bridge the understanding gap was to make a >>> dish >>> for an International Lunch the department had. I had to write a short >>> story >>> about myself. I took the pan home empty. >>> >>> It worked for me! I know it can work for you. >>> >>> Michelle >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com >> >> >> Anjelina >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/ignasicambra%40gmail.com > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Tue Mar 29 00:42:12 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:42:12 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People Message-ID: Hello: I am in Kerry's situation sometimes, and I can understand all of these points about friends and invitations. When I'm at school at lunch time sometimes I lose track of where my friend is, and I don't know where he is and I start wondering around the cafeteria. Sometimes I sit wherever I can, and sometimes where I sit there are a lot of people talking. Sometimes students say "hi" to me and then they leave. Sometimes I find a classmate I that I've met a few times in classes and they come and talk to me, and then either they leave by saying goodbye, or they leave by leaving nothing but silence and empty spaces. The problem is also, I suppose, I seem a bit shy, though I don't know why because I don't consider myself to be that shy of a guy; but people say I'm shy. there was great advice from people in this list, it looks like it may be helpful. But how or what do I do so I don't seem shy. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Kirt Manwaring To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Sun, 27 Mar 2011 09:06:13 -0600 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >Kerry, > Don't be so quick to assume everyone will find reasons to turn you >away. I know it's hard (from experience), but sometimes simply asking >if you can join people goes a long way. And...if they say no, what >have you lost? I think it's better to try and get rejected, for >whatever reason (which might not even have anything to do with you), >than to not try at all. > And another thing. (I've got me a Sunday school lesson to get ready >so I'm gonna make this short) But if someone's going the same place >you are, and if they live close, I don't think it's a burden at all to >ask for rides. Heck, lots of the people I know at college don't have >cars, so they're kind of stuck in the same situation where they have >to ask for a ride/take a bus/whatever. So asking for a ride isn't >weird at all...at least to me. And, if you feel bad or guilty about >it, offer to buy them a drink at the bar or something, or pay for some >of the gas, or whatever. > And don't ever forget that you're not alone. Lots of us have gone >through or are still going through the same kind of thing. But I'd >say try and hang out with the people who come say hi. The worst that >could happen is they say no, which isn't really your fault at all. >And even that's probably better than your situation now because at >least you made the effort. Good luck, and be safe. > Best, >Kirt >On 3/27/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >> Hi: >> Wow, thanks for all the responses! >> Let me clarify a couple of things. >> First, I would much much much rather go to the bar or out with a >> friend, or a group. However, since I don't really have that many >> friends my ownly choice is to either go alone or not go at all. I do >> not go alone just to seem independent... >> I've struggled to make friends my entire life. The reason I use my >> cane as much as I can, and always get my own transportation is because >> I think one of the reasons in the past I have had so much trouble >> making friends is that I burdened the people who did want to become >> friends with me by constantly expecting them to give me rides. By >> being as independent as I can, I am trying to show the sighted people >> around me that I am capable and that I do not expect of them any more >> then another sighted friend would. I do not want to burden them at all >> and the only way I know to do that until I can make some friends is to >> show that I am as independent as possible. >> I do like the idea of inviting the people to do something on my terms >> instead of expecting them to invite me to join their group. That is a >> good idea...I will have to try that. >> Also, the people who come up to me and say hi are not just random >> strangers but people I know in one way or another. They come up t me >> every time they are in the bar so this happens all the time...this >> coming up and saying hi and then leaving. >> If I think about this from their perspective, I guess they are coming >> with a group of friends and they want to say a quick hi, and get back >> to their friends...which I completely understand. But, if that's the >> case than what do I do? >> I am sure if I actually came out and asked one of them when they came >> up to me, they would have a reason for not inviting me. I'm sure all >> of this is unintentional on their part...but I don't want to offend >> anyone by saying something like "Hey, you come up to me and say hi >> all the time but never invite me into your group. Why is this? What is >> the reason?" That seems a bit rude... >> I may try inviting myself one day into a group. It's very interesting >> because some people strongly say no, that it is not polite to invite >> yourself into a group. HOwever, others say that I need to get myself >> out there and that I should invite myself into the group and not feel >> bad about doing so. >> Interesting. I will have to try inviting myself and see what happens. >> Also, I do sit at the bar. >> Thanks for the responses! >> Kerri >> On 3/27/11, autTeal Bloodwortho wrote: >>> very well put Kurt. I did not respond simply because I don't necessarily >>> think of myself as un-sighted? By us being judgmental towards those who >>> are >>> sighted, I think we create our own false impression that they judge us the >>> same. Most people that I have socialized through college and going to bars >>> I >>> have found curiousity rather than hatfullness or sympathy. I think you >>> should just be yourself and not be so pessimestic. More than likely Kurt >>> was >>> right in saying that these acquantences came with friends and I would be >>> more offended by someone telling me that that person walked by trying to >>> hide or something to avoid me. Yes we are all guilty of saying a quick Hi >>> and Goodbye. I am a totally blind 21 year old 2nd semester junior at a >>> private catholic 4 year university and each day that I go to the bar >>> (ironically named the blind parrot), always sighted guide, I do not feel >>> like I am treated any differently. >>> Kerri I am a believer that life is what you make it. You have to get >>> yourself out their and let these people know that you would be interested >>> in >>> hanging out, Shoot, maybe they can come hang out with you some time too. >>> It's sad to say but the general public can be alittle closed minded to >>> what >>> you can or cannot do. One more thing...I am with Kurt on the taxi deal. >>> Where I live, we do not have public buses, taxi cabs or really another >>> type >>> of public transportation except for a government funded organizationnamed >>> GRITS. unless you have medicade and are going to the doctor it's $1.95 a >>> mile which is quite a bit for the area. Therefore, I do bum alot of rides >>> but I've found that by going with friends I am never alone in a public >>> place >>> having to face the embarrassment that you are experiencing. >>> I wish you luck and hope I help you to love life.just enjoy this timewhile >>> you can >>> -Teal >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Kirt Manwaring" >> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>> >> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 11:19 PM >>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >>>> Kerry and Serina, >>>> I wasn't saying just ask random people if you could join their >>>> group. And, yeah, it's not easy. But the impression I got (and >>>> Kerry, maybe I'm totally off here and if I am I'm sorry) was that >>>> these were people you already knew. Not just random people saying hi. >>>> And, honestly, having been there and knowing I'll be there again, I >>>> totally disagree wholeheartedly about the sighted people who leave us >>>> alone being immature or stupid. I'm sure we've all done the same to >>>> someone before, maybe not even realizing or understanding what we're >>>> doing. I think it's not healthy to judge or condemn people for >>>> rejecting us, because I think most of us, including me, turn around >>>> and do the same thing to people we think are different or who we don't >>>> know how to handle. I think I've come to realize that, more often >>>> than not, people will leave me alone when I go places by myself. I've >>>> ran in to a few exceptions, like school dances or huge parties where >>>> everyone kinda just mixed and mingled anyway, but mostly I think that >>>> rule holds true. I think a lot of times people go to bars or >>>> restaurants or the like with their groups of friends, so that makes it >>>> trickier to socialize when you go alone. That's not to say it can't >>>> be done, it's just more complicated. >>>> And another thing that might be worth thinking about. Just because >>>> someone says hi, talks for a second, then leaves doesn't mean your >>>> blindness makes them leave. Maybe they have friends sitting at a >>>> table already. Maybe the person's on a schedule and really can't talk >>>> because they're going to go meet friends somewhere else. Maybe >>>> they're alone, like you, but too afraid to ask if they can join >>>> you...maybe there's a lot of other things you don't know about that >>>> make someone leave after coming by to say hi. I'm not saying them >>>> being unsure how to handle your blindness isn't a factor, it's >>>> probably a big one. But I think you do yourself a huge injustice if >>>> you think the only reason people leave after short conversation is >>>> your blindness. Heck, if that were true, I'd say you'd have a lot >>>> more people straight up ignoring you instead of at least making a >>>> small effort. There could be lots of other factors involved, >>>> especially if whoever came to say hi was at the bar with a group of >>>> friends and felt obligated to get back. That's why I say it's easier >>>> to go to places like restaurants with someone. >>>> But mostly don't get discouraged. I think most of us have been >>>> there...heck, I'd say probably most people, blind or sighted, have >>>> been there. I know I have and it's not easy. But, like anything else >>>> in life, it's very doable. >>>> HOpe that helps, >>>> Kirt >>>> On 3/26/11, Serena Cucco wrote: >>>>> It's true that sighted people might think you want to be alone cuz >>>>> you're >>>>> sitting alone, but I frankly think they're stupid! You're probably >>>>> sitting >>>>> alone cuz you came to the bar or lunch/dinner table alone, but that's >>>>> cuz >>>>> you weren't with anyone, not cuz you wanted to be alone. It isn't so >>>>> simple >>>>> to find a group of people to sit with, especially if you're not very >>>>> familiar with the bar or dining hall. When I was in college, there were >>>>> many times I came to the dining hall alone and people sat with me or >>>>> didn't, >>>>> depending on who was around. My sighted friend Anthony often came alone >>>>> and >>>>> often came with his girlfriend ... I'm sure people sometimes sat with >>>>> him, >>>>> but I'm sure he sometimes ended up eating alone. If you come alone, I >>>>> think >>>>> it's better to not ask random people to join their group just to make >>>>> people >>>>> know you're not antisocial. It's better to simply sit alone and hope >>>>> people >>>>> realize you don't want to be alone. It's the age. Young adults are >>>>> simply >>>>> that ... young and often immature. Sorry, but I think many people, >>>>> sighted >>>>> or blind, are just plain dumb! >>>>> Also, I think the socializing issue is separate from learning >>>>> independence >>>>> skills, except that Kerrie mentioned not using sighted guide or asking >>>>> people for rides to show she's not burdening her acquaintances. I don't >>>>> think she's purposely going places alone simply to be independent. >>>>> Kerrie, >>>>> please correct me if I'm wrong. >>>>> Serena >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On >>>>> Behalf >>>>> Of Brianna Scerenscko >>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 7:31 PM >>>>> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >>>>> I agree with the statement that at first a sighted person may not know >>>>> how to handle being with a blind person and or they may think you want >>>>> to be alone because you were sitting alone. I've met some pretty great >>>>> people who are now friends of mine that I met by them helping me or >>>>> giving me sighted guide in a crowded and unfamiliar area. Although >>>>> independents is important, it's okay to ask for rides or help if you >>>>> feel you need it. >>>>> Good Luck >>>>> Brianna >>>>> On 3/26/11, Hope Paulos wrote: >>>>>> Hi Kerri. I don't know if I'd ask them if you could join their group. >>>>> They >>>>>> might just do it out of politeness and feel obligated to let you join. >>>>>> You >>>>>> said your family runs a bar. Why not, instead of sitting at a table >>>>> alone, >>>>>> go to the bar where there are a lot more people sitting closer >>>>>> together? >>>>>> Unfortunately, that's all I can suggest. I'm sorry. >>>>>> Hope and guide dog, Beignet >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Brianna Scerenscko" >>>>> To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>>>>> >>>>> Sent: Saturday, March 26, 2011 6:37 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People >>>>>>>I don't mean to sound consided or anything. :) >>>>>>> On 3/26/11, Brianna Scerenscko wrote: >>>>>>>> I have been in that same situation both at school and in other social >>>>>>>> gathering places. I'm not sure how to handle it; whenever it happens >>>>>>>> to me, I usually feel bad for a few seconds, and then think "oh well, >>>>>>>> their loss". LOL I honestly think my parents feel worse about it than >>>>>>>> I do. >>>>>>>> On 3/26/11, Joshua Lester wrote: >>>>>>>>> Kerri, I don't know what to do in your situation. I have some of the >>>>>>>>> same problems at my community college. I'll say hi to somebody, but >>>>>>>>> they won't respond. I do have a question, though. I know it's off >>>>>>>>> topic, but how do you access Facebook? Every time I try to create a >>>>>>>>> page, the computer shuts down. Please help me offline. >>>>>>>>> Thanks, Joshua >>>>>>>>> On 3/26/11, Kerri Kosten wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Hi All! >>>>>>>>>> I thought I'd bring this topic up because I'm interested in hearing >>>>>>>>>> opinions and a lot of people have commented when I mentioned this >>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>> Facebook. >>>>>>>>>> As I've posted here before, my father owned a popular >>>>>>>>>> bar/restaurant >>>>>>>>>> that I like to go to on the weekends. >>>>>>>>>> I am noticing that quite often people will come up to where I am >>>>>>>>>> sitting, say hi, have a quick conversation with me, and than say >>>>>>>>>> "Well, I'm going to go join my other friends. Nice seeing you," or >>>>>>>>>> something like that. >>>>>>>>>> I have tried to not let it bother me, just ignore it, cheerfully >>>>>>>>>> say >>>>>>>>>> goodbye and go on but it's starting to really bother me. Last night >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> saw two girls that live in the same apartment complex as I do, and >>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>> of them works at the radio station with me. >>>>>>>>>> I use my cane all the time when I'm in Crockett's, to get >>>>>>>>>> everywhere. >>>>>>>>>> I never ask to take someone's arm, and even when I go outside to >>>>>>>>>> catch >>>>>>>>>> my cab to get home I go out by myself. I never ask people for >>>>>>>>>> rides, >>>>>>>>>> always paying for cabs to and from to independently get there and >>>>>>>>>> back. I always wear glasses to make my eyes look less funky (one is >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> lot tinier than the other), I always make sure my hair is brushed >>>>>>>>>> back, and it is always clean. I usually wear jeans but last night I >>>>>>>>>> was wearing a pair of corduroy pants and a nice shirt with a >>>>>>>>>> sweater >>>>>>>>>> vest over it that I know looks nice because it was the outfit I >>>>>>>>>> wore >>>>>>>>>> for Christmas. I usually do not wear makeup but put lipstick on >>>>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>>>> night. >>>>>>>>>> I discussed this situation earlier with a good friend who is also >>>>>>>>>> totally blind and she said people do the same sort of thing to her >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> the dining hall at the college she attends. >>>>>>>>>> Do many of you get similar treatment by sighted people? >>>>>>>>>> In your opinion, what is the best way to react/handle it? Is it >>>>>>>>>> rude >>>>>>>>>> to ask the person if you can join their group or should you always >>>>>>>>>> wait until you are invited? >>>>>>>>>> How do you deal with this and not let it affect/bother you or put >>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>> in a negative mood/frame of mind? >>>>>>>>>> The hardest thing for me is when people come up and talk to me and >>>>>>>>>> then they don't invite me to join in and I am left sitting alone it >>>>>>>>>> really upsets me and makes me think negatively. I was told that at >>>>>>>>>> least people do come up and talk to me;they could just walk past >>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>> not say a word. Sometimes though, in a way I think that would make >>>>>>>>>> things easier because then I would have never known they were there >>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>> the first place. I was also told to just cheerfully go on as if >>>>>>>>>> nothing happened and try to not let it bother me, and to think of >>>>>>>>>> myself as number one. >>>>>>>>>> Just something I thought I'd bring up for discussion. I understand >>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>> anyone can give is their opinion. >>>>>>>>>> Kerri >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/jlester84 62%40studen >>>>> ts.pccua.edu >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%4 0gmail.com >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/hope.paul os%40gmail. >>>>> com >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bfs1206%4 0gmail.com >>>>> -- >>>>> Brianna Scerenscko >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/serenacuc co%40verizo >>>>> n.net >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>>> nabs-l: >>>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> nabs-l mailing list >>>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>>> nabs-l: >>>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/tealblood worth%40gmail.com >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >>> nabs-l: >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kerrik200 6%40gmail.com >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.craz ydude%40gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 29 02:34:16 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:34:16 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] working with the public Message-ID: <17C485CF79594FBC86702AE7EFDE3C1C@OwnerPC> Hi all, I’m really hoping to volunteer and work with the public at a county park or the national park or possibly a museum. I want to build some experience and do outreach activities; I like to help people. Have you worked directly with the public? If so, how was it? What challenges did you encounter? Did you supply accomodations or did the agency you “worked"” for supply them? How do you handle the information desk where people just come up and ask questions? They probably will not know I’m blind and with my tunnel vision I may not see who is there. So did you figure out techniques to know people were coming up to you? Any cues you listened for? I figured that most will just speak right when they come up to the desk; after all they want information! But in case they don’t, I’d like to be able to greet them. I’ll probably work with another staff member or volunteer at first while training; but I want them to have confidence in me I can handle it on my own. How do you handle papers that they fill out or you have to desiminate? What I mean is they might have to sign in or something. I might be required to answer questions and hand out brochures, pamphlets, or other matterial. How can I ensure I am giving out the right information? Maybe I should just label the stack in braille? What about identifying people? Do I just ask and take their word for it? I doubt they will need to track who comes up to the counter and asks this or that. But just in case, I’m wondering. If I work at the visitors’ center or museums they will already have gone through security so that isn’t an issue What do I do about looking up information? A sighted person may skim through a book or something. Do I try and get that in accessible format and do it electronically? What about giving directions? Often visitors ask this. I cannot see a map. So do I just verbalize directions and hand them a map? A sighted person would probably point to a map while explaining; that is what I’ve seen happen in public settings with my parents. Thanks for any ideas. Ashley From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Tue Mar 29 03:26:45 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:26:45 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] working with the public Message-ID: Hello ashley. You asked really good questions. Let me give you some innovative answers to some of your questions. First, in dealing with any paperwork, yes, you can label things in Braille, but also, if you can afford, you can purchase the KNFB reader which I don't have myself, but I've seen it and it is a great thing to have regarding print access and when new paperwork comes in to your desk, just snap pictures of the print pages and the KNFB reader will read out loud to you. Then you can label your print pages accordingly. Also, regarding the asking for directions, you might stick with an accessible GPS device or software, such as the Sendero GPS for the BrailleNote and StreetTalk for the pacmate. I've also heard that there are some accessible GPS with the iPhone and the android phones. (I'm not sure, but I heard the Sendero also has an iPhone app for their product?) Please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways, you can just get your notetaker up and running and start the application, and when you ask for directions all you have to do is get the information off your accessible GPS then you can either transfer that information to a printer (print it) or verbally try to explain everything that's going on your device just like a regular sighted person would do -- remember you want to be as normal and as equal as everyone else -- just do this and people will come back to you with more questions. Regarding people coming to your desk, for instance, people might, mostly, say "Excuse me," but not every person does this so please ask additional questions as they come to either us or your agency you are volunteering for. Hope this helped you. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:34:16 -0400 >Subject: [nabs-l] working with the public >Hi all, >I’m really hoping to volunteer and work with the public at a county park or the national park or possibly a museum. I want to build some experience and do outreach activities; I like to help people. >Have you worked directly with the public? If so, how was it? >What challenges did you encounter? Did you supply accomodations or did the agency you “worked"” for supply them? >How do you handle the information desk where people just come up and ask questions? >They probably will not know I’m blind and with my tunnel vision I may not see who is there. >So did you figure out techniques to know people were coming up to you? Any cues you listened for? I figured that most will just speak right when they come up to the desk; after all they want information! But in case they don’t, I’d like to be able to greet them. >I’ll probably work with another staff member or volunteer at first while training; but I want them to have confidence in me I can handle it on my own. >How do you handle papers that they fill out or you have to desiminate? What I mean is they might have to sign in or something. I might be required to answer questions and hand out brochures, pamphlets, or other matterial. How can I ensure I am giving out the right information? >Maybe I should just label the stack in braille? What about identifying people? Do I just ask and take their word for it? I doubt they will need to track who comes up to the counter and asks this or that. >But just in case, I’m wondering. If I work at the visitors’ center or museums they will already have gone through security so that isn’t an issue >What do I do about looking up information? A sighted person may skim through a book or something. >Do I try and get that in accessible format and do it electronically? What about giving directions? Often visitors ask this. >I cannot see a map. So do I just verbalize directions and hand them a map? A sighted person would probably point to a map while explaining; that is what I’ve seen happen in public settings with my parents. >Thanks for any ideas. >Ashley >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 29 03:39:29 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 23:39:29 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] working with the public In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Thanks. Labeling in braille sounds like a good idea. But I'm dealing with bulk stuff likely. Like lots of the same brochure or copies of letters. Maybe I should lable the file or folder or whatever the papers are in. I also have some vision; so may be able to color code things or remember what a certain paper is colored if its on colored paper. I do not have a Knfb reader. Are there portable scanners out there that don't require a computer? I mean stand alone devices that are small and portable that you could carry with you from work station to station to some extent. That might be a good device to have as well. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: humberto Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 11:26 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] working with the public Hello ashley. You asked really good questions. Let me give you some innovative answers to some of your questions. First, in dealing with any paperwork, yes, you can label things in Braille, but also, if you can afford, you can purchase the KNFB reader which I don't have myself, but I've seen it and it is a great thing to have regarding print access and when new paperwork comes in to your desk, just snap pictures of the print pages and the KNFB reader will read out loud to you. Then you can label your print pages accordingly. Also, regarding the asking for directions, you might stick with an accessible GPS device or software, such as the Sendero GPS for the BrailleNote and StreetTalk for the pacmate. I've also heard that there are some accessible GPS with the iPhone and the android phones. (I'm not sure, but I heard the Sendero also has an iPhone app for their product?) Please correct me if I'm wrong. Anyways, you can just get your notetaker up and running and start the application, and when you ask for directions all you have to do is get the information off your accessible GPS then you can either transfer that information to a printer (print it) or verbally try to explain everything that's going on your device just like a regular sighted person would do -- remember you want to be as normal and as equal as everyone else -- just do this and people will come back to you with more questions. Regarding people coming to your desk, for instance, people might, mostly, say "Excuse me," but not every person does this so please ask additional questions as they come to either us or your agency you are volunteering for. Hope this helped you. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:34:16 -0400 >Subject: [nabs-l] working with the public >Hi all, >I’m really hoping to volunteer and work with the public at a county park or the national park or possibly a museum. I want to build some experience and do outreach activities; I like to help people. >Have you worked directly with the public? If so, how was it? >What challenges did you encounter? Did you supply accomodations or did the agency you “worked"” for supply them? >How do you handle the information desk where people just come up and ask questions? >They probably will not know I’m blind and with my tunnel vision I may not see who is there. >So did you figure out techniques to know people were coming up to you? Any cues you listened for? I figured that most will just speak right when they come up to the desk; after all they want information! But in case they don’t, I’d like to be able to greet them. >I’ll probably work with another staff member or volunteer at first while training; but I want them to have confidence in me I can handle it on my own. >How do you handle papers that they fill out or you have to desiminate? What I mean is they might have to sign in or something. I might be required to answer questions and hand out brochures, pamphlets, or other matterial. How can I ensure I am giving out the right information? >Maybe I should just label the stack in braille? What about identifying people? Do I just ask and take their word for it? I doubt they will need to track who comes up to the counter and asks this or that. >But just in case, I’m wondering. If I work at the visitors’ center or museums they will already have gone through security so that isn’t an issue >What do I do about looking up information? A sighted person may skim through a book or something. >Do I try and get that in accessible format and do it electronically? What about giving directions? Often visitors ask this. >I cannot see a map. So do I just verbalize directions and hand them a map? A sighted person would probably point to a map while explaining; that is what I’ve seen happen in public settings with my parents. >Thanks for any ideas. >Ashley >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Tue Mar 29 03:51:11 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 20:51:11 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] working with the public Message-ID: Hi ashley. No, I don't think there are any other portable scanners out there but the KNFB reader and there is also an iPhone application that can scan and read out loud as well. Check out freedomScientific's web page at www.hj.com, I belichre there is another portable solution, like a camera that can scan print pages as well. You can also check out some of the other devices like the docuscan scanner or something (I'm not sure what the other ones are called) but just google around and you will find things. Keep options opened. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 23:39:29 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] working with the public >Hi, >Thanks. Labeling in braille sounds like a good idea. But I'm dealing with >bulk stuff likely. >Like lots of the same brochure or copies of letters. Maybe I should lable >the file or folder or whatever the papers are in. >I also have some vision; so may be able to color code things or remember >what a certain paper is colored if its on colored paper. >I do not have a Knfb reader. >Are there portable scanners out there that don't require a computer? I mean >stand alone devices that are small and portable that you could carry with >you from work station to station to some extent. >That might be a good device to have as well. >Ashley >-----Original Message----- >From: humberto >Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 11:26 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] working with the public >Hello ashley. >You asked really good questions. Let me give you some innovative >answers to some of your questions. First, in dealing with any >paperwork, yes, you can label things in Braille, but also, if you >can afford, you can purchase the KNFB reader which I don't have >myself, but I've seen it and it is a great thing to have >regarding print access and when new paperwork comes in to your >desk, just snap pictures of the print pages and the KNFB reader >will read out loud to you. Then you can label your print pages >accordingly. >Also, regarding the asking for directions, you might stick with >an accessible GPS device or software, such as the Sendero GPS for >the BrailleNote and StreetTalk for the pacmate. I've also heard >that there are some accessible GPS with the iPhone and the >android phones. (I'm not sure, but I heard the Sendero also has >an iPhone app for their product?) Please correct me if I'm wrong. >Anyways, you can just get your notetaker up and running and start >the application, and when you ask for directions all you have to >do is get the information off your accessible GPS then you can >either transfer that information to a printer (print it) or >verbally try to explain everything that's going on your device >just like a regular sighted person would do -- remember you want >to be as normal and as equal as everyone else -- just do this and >people will come back to you with more questions. >Regarding people coming to your desk, for instance, people might, >mostly, say "Excuse me," but not every person does this so please >ask additional questions as they come to either us or your agency >you are volunteering for. Hope this helped you. >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>Date sent: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:34:16 -0400 >>Subject: [nabs-l] working with the public >>Hi all, >>I’m really hoping to volunteer and work with the public at a >county park or the national park or possibly a museum. I want to >build some experience and do outreach activities; I like to help >people. >>Have you worked directly with the public? If so, how was it? >>What challenges did you encounter? Did you supply accomodations >or did the agency you “worked"” for supply them? >>How do you handle the information desk where people just come up >and ask questions? >>They probably will not know I’m blind and with my tunnel vision >I may not see who is there. >>So did you figure out techniques to know people were coming up to >you? Any cues you listened for? I figured that most will just >speak right when they come up to the desk; after all they want >information! But in case they don’t, I’d like to be able to >greet them. >>I’ll probably work with another staff member or volunteer at >first while training; but I want them to have confidence in me I >can handle it on my own. >>How do you handle papers that they fill out or you have to >desiminate? What I mean is they might have to sign in or >something. I might be required to answer questions and hand out >brochures, pamphlets, or other matterial. How can I ensure I am >giving out the right information? >>Maybe I should just label the stack in braille? What about >identifying people? Do I just ask and take their word for it? I >doubt they will need to track who comes up to the counter and >asks this or that. >>But just in case, I’m wondering. If I work at the visitors’ >center or museums they will already have gone through security so >that isn’t an issue >>What do I do about looking up information? A sighted person may >skim through a book or something. >>Do I try and get that in accessible format and do it >electronically? What about giving directions? Often visitors >ask this. >>I cannot see a map. So do I just verbalize directions and hand >them a map? A sighted person would probably point to a map while >explaining; that is what I’ve seen happen in public settings >with my parents. >>Thanks for any ideas. >>Ashley >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >5369%40netzero.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthlink.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 29 04:01:38 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 00:01:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] working with the public In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <653671A47D7C4B62A19D354BBBC90B70@OwnerPC> Hi, I thought there were more portable stand alone scanners. I heard of the Ipal but have no idea what it does. How portable is that scanner? -----Original Message----- From: humberto Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 11:51 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] working with the public Hi ashley. No, I don't think there are any other portable scanners out there but the KNFB reader and there is also an iPhone application that can scan and read out loud as well. Check out freedomScientific's web page at www.hj.com, I belichre there is another portable solution, like a camera that can scan print pages as well. You can also check out some of the other devices like the docuscan scanner or something (I'm not sure what the other ones are called) but just google around and you will find things. Keep options opened. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Date sent: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 23:39:29 -0400 >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] working with the public >Hi, >Thanks. Labeling in braille sounds like a good idea. But I'm dealing with >bulk stuff likely. >Like lots of the same brochure or copies of letters. Maybe I should lable >the file or folder or whatever the papers are in. >I also have some vision; so may be able to color code things or remember >what a certain paper is colored if its on colored paper. >I do not have a Knfb reader. >Are there portable scanners out there that don't require a computer? I mean >stand alone devices that are small and portable that you could carry with >you from work station to station to some extent. >That might be a good device to have as well. >Ashley >-----Original Message----- >From: humberto >Sent: Monday, March 28, 2011 11:26 PM >To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >Subject: Re: [nabs-l] working with the public >Hello ashley. >You asked really good questions. Let me give you some innovative >answers to some of your questions. First, in dealing with any >paperwork, yes, you can label things in Braille, but also, if you >can afford, you can purchase the KNFB reader which I don't have >myself, but I've seen it and it is a great thing to have >regarding print access and when new paperwork comes in to your >desk, just snap pictures of the print pages and the KNFB reader >will read out loud to you. Then you can label your print pages >accordingly. >Also, regarding the asking for directions, you might stick with >an accessible GPS device or software, such as the Sendero GPS for >the BrailleNote and StreetTalk for the pacmate. I've also heard >that there are some accessible GPS with the iPhone and the >android phones. (I'm not sure, but I heard the Sendero also has >an iPhone app for their product?) Please correct me if I'm wrong. >Anyways, you can just get your notetaker up and running and start >the application, and when you ask for directions all you have to >do is get the information off your accessible GPS then you can >either transfer that information to a printer (print it) or >verbally try to explain everything that's going on your device >just like a regular sighted person would do -- remember you want >to be as normal and as equal as everyone else -- just do this and >people will come back to you with more questions. >Regarding people coming to your desk, for instance, people might, >mostly, say "Excuse me," but not every person does this so please >ask additional questions as they come to either us or your agency >you are volunteering for. Hope this helped you. >> ----- Original Message ----- >>From: >To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" >>Date sent: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:34:16 -0400 >>Subject: [nabs-l] working with the public >>Hi all, >>I’m really hoping to volunteer and work with the public at a >county park or the national park or possibly a museum. I want to >build some experience and do outreach activities; I like to help >people. >>Have you worked directly with the public? If so, how was it? >>What challenges did you encounter? Did you supply accomodations >or did the agency you “worked"” for supply them? >>How do you handle the information desk where people just come up >and ask questions? >>They probably will not know I’m blind and with my tunnel vision >I may not see who is there. >>So did you figure out techniques to know people were coming up to >you? Any cues you listened for? I figured that most will just >speak right when they come up to the desk; after all they want >information! But in case they don’t, I’d like to be able to >greet them. >>I’ll probably work with another staff member or volunteer at >first while training; but I want them to have confidence in me I >can handle it on my own. >>How do you handle papers that they fill out or you have to >desiminate? What I mean is they might have to sign in or >something. I might be required to answer questions and hand out >brochures, pamphlets, or other matterial. How can I ensure I am >giving out the right information? >>Maybe I should just label the stack in braille? What about >identifying people? Do I just ask and take their word for it? I >doubt they will need to track who comes up to the counter and >asks this or that. >>But just in case, I’m wondering. If I work at the visitors’ >center or museums they will already have gone through security so >that isn’t an issue >>What do I do about looking up information? A sighted person may >skim through a book or something. >>Do I try and get that in accessible format and do it >electronically? What about giving directions? Often visitors >ask this. >>I cannot see a map. So do I just verbalize directions and hand >them a map? A sighted person would probably point to a map while >explaining; that is what I’ve seen happen in public settings >with my parents. >>Thanks for any ideas. >>Ashley >>_______________________________________________ >>nabs-l mailing list >>nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >for nabs-l: >>http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >5369%40netzero.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookworma hb%40earthlink.net >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From trillian551 at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 05:33:24 2011 From: trillian551 at gmail.com (Mary Fernandez) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 01:33:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Fwd: [Gabs] March 2011 Connecting The Dotz In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Connecting the Dotz Newsletter Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 15:49:13 -0400 Subject: [Gabs] March 2011 Connecting The Dotz To: GABS at nfbnet.org Hi All, It's that time again...another awesome issue of the GABS quarterly newsletter Connecting The Dotz is out and hotter than ever! If you want to experience some of that GA SWAG then you should definitely check it out. Thanks to everyone that contributed to this issue. Below you will find the link to the newsletter. We hope you guys enjoy! CTD News Team http://nfbga.org/GABS/page5/page10/page10.html -- Nikki Jackson Editor, Connecting The Dots Newsletter Phone: 404-825-8711 "We are not creatures of circumstance; we are creators of circumstance." -Jack Welch _______________________________________________ Gabs mailing list Gabs at nfbnet.org http://nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gabs_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for Gabs: http://nfbnet.org/mailman/options/gabs_nfbnet.org/trillian551%40gmail.com -- Mary Fernandez President: Georgia Association of Blind Students Emory University 2012 P.O. Box 123056 Atlanta Ga. 30322 Phone: 732-857-7004 "It's not worth doing something unless someone, somewhere, would much rather you weren't doing it." Terry Pratchett From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 29 21:25:03 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:25:03 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessing class material Message-ID: Hi all, I’m still trying to get electronic handouts so they are accessible. So how long do you wait to get the documents? Do professors send them a day after class, same day, or what typically? IF I do not get them, I’ll ask my disability counselor to say something. Ashley From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Mar 29 22:02:05 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:02:05 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Making friends In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Humberto, The best advice anyone can give you is to work on initiating conversations and introducing yourself when in new environments. If people do not speak to you, or friendships do not develop from conversations, it is okay. Don't take it personally, and just move onto the next encounter. If you and a friend plan on meeting up, or you go to the same thing, like the cafeteria, make arrangements ahead of time to meet at a certain location so you don't lose them. You can also ring or text them if you lose track of them. *smile* Don't be afraid to speak up, and remember, many people will be feeling the same things you do. Bridgit Message: 2 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:42:12 -0700 From: humberto To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Making Friends/Socializing With Sighted People Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Hello: I am in Kerry's situation sometimes, and I can understand all of these points about friends and invitations. When I'm at school at lunch time sometimes I lose track of where my friend is, and I don't know where he is and I start wondering around the cafeteria. Sometimes I sit wherever I can, and sometimes where I sit there are a lot of people talking. Sometimes students say "hi" to me and then they leave. Sometimes I find a classmate I that I've met a few times in classes and they come and talk to me, and then either they leave by saying goodbye, or they leave by leaving nothing but silence and empty spaces. The problem is also, I suppose, I seem a bit shy, though I don't know why because I don't consider myself to be that shy of a guy; but people say I'm shy. there was great advice from people in this list, it looks like it may be helpful. But how or what do I do so I don't seem shy. From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Tue Mar 29 22:39:46 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:39:46 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Working with the public In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, With my freelance writing, I often work promo events, which can be crowded with lots of traffic, and with my public relations internship, I am dealing with situations that may involve public appearances especially since I do a lot of the speaking for my team. I can see shadows and movement, but it really doesn't help in terms of using vision. I am totally blind, for all intensive purposes. When standing behind a desk or table, it is quite easy to know when people approach you. Often the sound is different, or they make some audio cue like clearing their throat, tapping fingers, touching any brochures or material, and of course talking. If you think someone is there, speak up, and if not, it is not a big deal. Braille, if you use it, is your best option for labeling information. If you have stacks of different literature, simply tape, paper clip, staple or rubber band Braille labels onto the top piece of literature, or place them in a folder with the label. This is quick, simple and cheap. I have a double-sided slate, or Janus as they called them in Iowa (look it up! *smile*) and this is perfect for making quick labels. I carry it with me everywhere. When I do promo events, we have tons of literature on our table which I will make sure to organize in stacks as well as label. This is good for quick retrieval and it just looks nice. We also usually have products to hand out like water bottles or tote bags or food. Again, I arrange them in an organized fashion, and I have them ready to hand out. We do promo events in different locations throughout the city so I try to understand the basic layout as well as what is immediately around me. Bathrooms are important to know for yourself and others. I could be wrong, but a GPS will not provide directions for indoor locations. GPS's give directions for streets and addresses, but to my knowledge, they have not advanced yet to determine directions inside buildings. You will need to be familiar with your work environment so you can provide directions. Perhaps you can create a cheat-sheet of sorts for directions, but you will have to spend a little bit of time learning your work space especially if you will be giving directions. Also, it is okay to say you don't know, but can look up the information. If you will be working with a computer, obviously you will need to install any adaptive software you use. Employers are required to allow this, though I don't think they have to pay for it, but I could be wrong. Working with the public is quite easy and fun. Once you acclimate yourself to your environment, you will find it is not that difficult. I do not recommend purchasing expensive technology since cheaper options exist that are just as reliable. And definitely do not rely on technology if you have access to it since technology can, and will, fail. If you use technology for anything, have a back-up prepared so you are never at a loss. My NFB chapter does lots of activities where we are working with the public. We rarely have anyone sighted with us, and we pull it off every time, including handling money. And if you use a cane, keep it with you at all times since this can act as an indicator for people to recognize you are blind. Not everyone will get it, but many people will notice the cane and understand you are blind. This can help for those situations when you do something like not know a person is standing nearby. Just be confident, and remember, everyone makes mistakes, so don't freak out if you aren't perfect. I'm still learning this lesson too. *smile* Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:34:16 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: [nabs-l] working with the public Message-ID: <17C485CF79594FBC86702AE7EFDE3C1C at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi all, I?m really hoping to volunteer and work with the public at a county park or the national park or possibly a museum. I want to build some experience and do outreach activities; I like to help people. Have you worked directly with the public? If so, how was it? What challenges did you encounter? Did you supply accomodations or did the agency you ?worked"? for supply them? How do you handle the information desk where people just come up and ask questions? They probably will not know I?m blind and with my tunnel vision I may not see who is there. So did you figure out techniques to know people were coming up to you? Any cues you listened for? I figured that most will just speak right when they come up to the desk; after all they want information! But in case they don?t, I?d like to be able to greet them. I?ll probably work with another staff member or volunteer at first while training; but I want them to have confidence in me I can handle it on my own. How do you handle papers that they fill out or you have to desiminate? What I mean is they might have to sign in or something. I might be required to answer questions and hand out brochures, pamphlets, or other matterial. How can I ensure I am giving out the right information? Maybe I should just label the stack in braille? What about identifying people? Do I just ask and take their word for it? I doubt they will need to track who comes up to the counter and asks this or that. But just in case, I?m wondering. If I work at the visitors? center or museums they will already have gone through security so that isn?t an issue What do I do about looking up information? A sighted person may skim through a book or something. Do I try and get that in accessible format and do it electronically? What about giving directions? Often visitors ask this. I cannot see a map. So do I just verbalize directions and hand them a map? A sighted person would probably point to a map while explaining; that is what I?ve seen happen in public settings with my parents. Thanks for any ideas. Ashley From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Tue Mar 29 22:59:30 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:59:30 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Working with the public In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Bridget, Thanks for your experience. I do use braille and like the idea of making a removable label on a stack of papers. Paper clipping will allow me to use the label over again. Yes GPS only does outdoors; so I guess I'll need to memorize information. How about phones? I will have the extentions on the computer. But do you think I should memorize some of them? Do you think I'll need to label some phone buttons? I decided since I'm intraverted, I'm most likely working with the public but not in person; I will be answering phones and emails among other projects. Thanks for your suggestions though on telling who is coming up to you. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 6:39 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Working with the public Ashley, With my freelance writing, I often work promo events, which can be crowded with lots of traffic, and with my public relations internship, I am dealing with situations that may involve public appearances especially since I do a lot of the speaking for my team. I can see shadows and movement, but it really doesn't help in terms of using vision. I am totally blind, for all intensive purposes. When standing behind a desk or table, it is quite easy to know when people approach you. Often the sound is different, or they make some audio cue like clearing their throat, tapping fingers, touching any brochures or material, and of course talking. If you think someone is there, speak up, and if not, it is not a big deal. Braille, if you use it, is your best option for labeling information. If you have stacks of different literature, simply tape, paper clip, staple or rubber band Braille labels onto the top piece of literature, or place them in a folder with the label. This is quick, simple and cheap. I have a double-sided slate, or Janus as they called them in Iowa (look it up! *smile*) and this is perfect for making quick labels. I carry it with me everywhere. When I do promo events, we have tons of literature on our table which I will make sure to organize in stacks as well as label. This is good for quick retrieval and it just looks nice. We also usually have products to hand out like water bottles or tote bags or food. Again, I arrange them in an organized fashion, and I have them ready to hand out. We do promo events in different locations throughout the city so I try to understand the basic layout as well as what is immediately around me. Bathrooms are important to know for yourself and others. I could be wrong, but a GPS will not provide directions for indoor locations. GPS's give directions for streets and addresses, but to my knowledge, they have not advanced yet to determine directions inside buildings. You will need to be familiar with your work environment so you can provide directions. Perhaps you can create a cheat-sheet of sorts for directions, but you will have to spend a little bit of time learning your work space especially if you will be giving directions. Also, it is okay to say you don't know, but can look up the information. If you will be working with a computer, obviously you will need to install any adaptive software you use. Employers are required to allow this, though I don't think they have to pay for it, but I could be wrong. Working with the public is quite easy and fun. Once you acclimate yourself to your environment, you will find it is not that difficult. I do not recommend purchasing expensive technology since cheaper options exist that are just as reliable. And definitely do not rely on technology if you have access to it since technology can, and will, fail. If you use technology for anything, have a back-up prepared so you are never at a loss. My NFB chapter does lots of activities where we are working with the public. We rarely have anyone sighted with us, and we pull it off every time, including handling money. And if you use a cane, keep it with you at all times since this can act as an indicator for people to recognize you are blind. Not everyone will get it, but many people will notice the cane and understand you are blind. This can help for those situations when you do something like not know a person is standing nearby. Just be confident, and remember, everyone makes mistakes, so don't freak out if you aren't perfect. I'm still learning this lesson too. *smile* Bridgit Message: 3 Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2011 22:34:16 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: [nabs-l] working with the public Message-ID: <17C485CF79594FBC86702AE7EFDE3C1C at OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi all, I?m really hoping to volunteer and work with the public at a county park or the national park or possibly a museum. I want to build some experience and do outreach activities; I like to help people. Have you worked directly with the public? If so, how was it? What challenges did you encounter? Did you supply accomodations or did the agency you ?worked"? for supply them? How do you handle the information desk where people just come up and ask questions? They probably will not know I?m blind and with my tunnel vision I may not see who is there. So did you figure out techniques to know people were coming up to you? Any cues you listened for? I figured that most will just speak right when they come up to the desk; after all they want information! But in case they don?t, I?d like to be able to greet them. I?ll probably work with another staff member or volunteer at first while training; but I want them to have confidence in me I can handle it on my own. How do you handle papers that they fill out or you have to desiminate? What I mean is they might have to sign in or something. I might be required to answer questions and hand out brochures, pamphlets, or other matterial. How can I ensure I am giving out the right information? Maybe I should just label the stack in braille? What about identifying people? Do I just ask and take their word for it? I doubt they will need to track who comes up to the counter and asks this or that. But just in case, I?m wondering. If I work at the visitors? center or museums they will already have gone through security so that isn?t an issue What do I do about looking up information? A sighted person may skim through a book or something. Do I try and get that in accessible format and do it electronically? What about giving directions? Often visitors ask this. I cannot see a map. So do I just verbalize directions and hand them a map? A sighted person would probably point to a map while explaining; that is what I?ve seen happen in public settings with my parents. Thanks for any ideas. Ashley _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From gpaikens at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 04:07:22 2011 From: gpaikens at gmail.com (Greg Aikens) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 23:07:22 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] accessing class material In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08FDC3F1-4A72-4968-BECC-A8F522C6B4A8@gmail.com> Ashley, Your professors should send them to you before class. If they are bringing print copies for everyone else, it is reasonable for them to send it to you electronically in the same time frame. If the handouts are valuable for learning, which presumably they are, then you need to have access to them when everyone else does. That way you can make notes on them etc. as the prof covers the material. I don't know what profs typically do, but this is what they should do. -Greg On Mar 29, 2011, at 4:25 PM, wrote: > Hi all, > I’m still trying to get electronic handouts so they are accessible. > So how long do you wait to get the documents? Do professors send them a day after class, same day, or what typically? > IF I do not get them, I’ll ask my disability counselor to say something. > > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/gpaikens%40gmail.com From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 04:20:27 2011 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:20:27 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing Message-ID: Hi all! So my fiancé and I recently took up rock climbing and have been going to a local rock gym weekly for the past month or so. We go with friends, but we are the only two in the group who are interested in top-roping. We're both blind, and we take turns belaying for one another. I know a fair number of blind people rock climb, so I was wondering if anyone has any tips or techniques that you use when you climb, for any aspect of the climb? How do you choose a path up the wall? There are paths marked with colored tape, but this is useless to us, so we just wing it and feel out our own paths, but on harder walls this can be tricky. How did you get the hang of belaying? Did you use any special technique to determine when and how quickly your partner is climbing, like maybe have them wear a bell? Or were you able to tell how quickly to go just by feeling the slack in the rope? Our guide advised us to just take up slack when we feel slack, but I've noticed my partner sometimes doesn't feel when I get higher, and the slack in the rope makes me nervous. When belaying, how did you prepare to handle falls, since you wouldn't be able to see when your partner starts to fall? This makes me most nervous, and I've been told I keep the rope too tight at times for the climber (especially a male climber) to move comfortably. Right now I'm going with the advice that this will all come with practice, but I wondered what experiences other people have. Thanks, -Jamie From jbrew48 at verizon.net Wed Mar 30 08:11:15 2011 From: jbrew48 at verizon.net (Julie) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 03:11:15 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Survey on Experiences with Police, Fire and EMS Workers Message-ID: I have been asked to widely circulate the following: David Andrews, List Owner I have been asked to help with developing a training program and manual for first responders in New York State being conducted through Niagara University. This will cover all disability groups, but my part focuses primarily on all areas concerning people with visual impairment and blindness and our experiences with police, fire and EMS workers, Include any experiences that you have had with emergency preparedness issues. We would like to hear from New York State residents who are blind or visually impaired no matter how insignificant you think your story is. Include incidences with guide dogs, reporting criminal activities against you, your own contacts with first responders , and how you were treated and so on. a more complete explanation of the program is below. I am including a survey below that will help guide you. Please consider taking a few moments to think about this and send me your completed survey. You can send it to me privately at blindfirstresponderny at verizon.net or if you are more comfortable contacting him yourself David V. Whalen Statewide Project Coordinator First-Responders Disability Awareness Training Niagara University, NY 716-286-7355 dwhalen at niagara.edu Niagara University First Responder Disability Awareness Training Niagara University First Responder Disability Awareness Training Niagara University (NU) has received the New York State Developmental Disabilities Planning Council (DDPC) First Responder (FR) Disability Awareness Training (DAT) grant. Over the course of the next three years we will be developing the curriculum for law enforcement, fire fighters, and Emergency Medical Services (EMS) in regards to proper response to individuals with disabilities (IWDs) and all that this entails. Included in this curriculum will be Emergency Management (EM) and the needs that go with serving IWDs in emergency and disaster situations. NU has hired David Whalen, Disability Awareness Training, as the Statewide Project Coordinator to oversee this project. David has been training First Responders for the past five years. NU and Mr. Whalen were awarded a grant from Verizon to train law enforcement in 2006. David is actively involved in many areas of the disability community and serves on a number of councils, associations, and Boards .( The intent of this project is to develop a standard, information filled, accurate and appropriate training curriculum that provides all First Responders with the knowledge necessary to best serve and respond to IWDs. However, developing and implementing the curriculum and having it accepted and embraced by First Responders will be a challenge. We realize that training schedules are quite full, that budget cuts hamper areas training opportunities, and that there are complexities involved in running training programs; however the need for training in the area of IWDs is critical. As we launch this initiative, we are in the process of informing a large number of state agencies, statewide associations, commissions, councils, service providers, parents, and individuals across the First Responder and disability spectrum to ensure all entities are aware of the curriculum development that is taking place. First Responder Disability Awareness Training Niagara University Content Expert Information sheet 1. What is your experience with First Responders? A. Law enforcement B. Fire fighters C. Emergency management services D. Emergency Medical Technicians E. Ambulance 2. Have you experienced or been informed of issues or matters of concern regarding First Responders. Please elaborate. Provide specific incidences. 3. What did you do to correct the matter? 4. Was it handled to your liking? 5. Was there any on-going involvement from your organization? Did you train the entity, did you start or join a committee, on-going 1:1 dialogue, etc. 6. Did it have the results you desired? 7. Is it still on-going? 8. Have you ever trained First Responders or do you have material relevant to training them? 9. If so, who has received this training/curriculum? 10. Is this still on-going within their department? 11. How is it measured to be effective? Is there data available? 12. Has it ever been updated? 13. Do you a professional relationship with any First Responder agency, association, department, or individual? 14. If so, do you think they would be a valuable contributor to this project? 15. Any thoughts or ideas you have that would make this project a success. Thank you for your participation. Julie Phillipson M. Ed. From dandrews at visi.com Wed Mar 30 09:51:27 2011 From: dandrews at visi.com (David Andrews) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 04:51:27 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't have any tips, I have never done it -- but I know that students at the Colorado Center for the Blind have done it. So, you might ask on the CCB Alumni list, http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/ccb-alumni_nfbnet.org Dave At 11:20 PM 3/29/2011, you wrote: >Hi all! > >So my fiancé and I recently took up rock climbing and have been going to a >local rock gym weekly for the past month or so. We go with friends, but we >are the only two in the group who are interested in top-roping. We're both >blind, and we take turns belaying for one another. I know a fair number of >blind people rock climb, so I was wondering if anyone has any tips or >techniques that you use when you climb, for any aspect of the climb? > >How do you choose a path up the wall? There are paths marked with colored >tape, but this is useless to us, so we just wing it and feel out our own >paths, but on harder walls this can be tricky. > >How did you get the hang of belaying? Did you use any special technique to >determine when and how quickly your partner is climbing, like maybe have >them wear a bell? Or were you able to tell how quickly to go just by feeling >the slack in the rope? Our guide advised us to just take up slack when we >feel slack, but I've noticed my partner sometimes doesn't feel when I get >higher, and the slack in the rope makes me nervous. > >When belaying, how did you prepare to handle falls, since you wouldn't be >able to see when your partner starts to fall? This makes me most nervous, >and I've been told I keep the rope too tight at times for the climber >(especially a male climber) to move comfortably. > >Right now I'm going with the advice that this will all come with practice, >but I wondered what experiences other people have. > >Thanks, > >-Jamie From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Mar 30 21:45:06 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:45:06 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Accessing class material In-Reply-To: Message-ID: My DSO requires material be sent to them for formatting within a 5 to 3 day timeframe. This gives them time to do what they need with it, and time for me to have it before it is due. Bridgit Message: 1 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 17:25:03 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: [nabs-l] accessing class material Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Hi all, I?m still trying to get electronic handouts so they are accessible. So how long do you wait to get the documents? Do professors send them a day after class, same day, or what typically? IF I do not get them, I?ll ask my disability counselor to say something. Ashley From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Wed Mar 30 21:54:17 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:54:17 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Working with the public In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ashley, Label everything you can that you will use. I would label the phone for the functions that are accessible. They do make accessible business phones, but I'm not sure how much they cost. Some things will require memorization, but if you are working using and doing things frequently, you will grow familiar with everything. Goodluck. Bridgit Message: 4 Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:59:30 -0400 From: To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Working with the public Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Bridget, Thanks for your experience. I do use braille and like the idea of making a removable label on a stack of papers. Paper clipping will allow me to use the label over again. Yes GPS only does outdoors; so I guess I'll need to memorize information. How about phones? I will have the extentions on the computer. But do you think I should memorize some of them? Do you think I'll need to label some phone buttons? I decided since I'm intraverted, I'm most likely working with the public but not in person; I will be answering phones and emails among other projects. Thanks for your suggestions though on telling who is coming up to you. Thanks. From kobycox at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 21:57:37 2011 From: kobycox at gmail.com (Koby Cox) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:57:37 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Working with the public In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Briget, Can you please email me off list? I have some questions for you regarding the NFB. Thanks, Koby. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 30, 2011, at 4:54 PM, Bridgit Pollpeter wrote: > Ashley, > > Label everything you can that you will use. I would label the phone for > the functions that are accessible. They do make accessible business > phones, but I'm not sure how much they cost. > > Some things will require memorization, but if you are working using and > doing things frequently, you will grow familiar with everything. > > Goodluck. > > Bridgit > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 18:59:30 -0400 > From: > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" > > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Working with the public > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Bridget, > Thanks for your experience. I do use braille and like the idea of making > a > removable label on a stack of papers. Paper clipping will allow me to > use the label over again. Yes GPS only does outdoors; so I guess I'll > need to > memorize information. > How about phones? I will have the extentions on the computer. But do > you > think I should memorize some of them? > Do you think I'll need to label some phone buttons? > I decided since I'm intraverted, I'm most likely working with the public > but > not in person; I will > be answering phones and emails among other projects. Thanks for your > suggestions though on telling who is coming up to you. > > Thanks. > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kobycox%40gmail.com From humbertoa5369 at netzero.net Wed Mar 30 23:22:04 2011 From: humbertoa5369 at netzero.net (humberto) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 16:22:04 -0700 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing Message-ID: Hi, I'm not sure this topic is really appropriate for this list, unless so many students go rock climbing instead of going to college! * joke * But you can join a mailing list that is more related to this topic. It is in the NFB-NET server as well; you need to send a blank email message to Sportsandrec-request at nfbnet.org with the subject line "subscribe." there will be more people willing to talk more about this topic than people in this list, students who are busy thinking about homework and school and how stressed up they will be for the next day and challenges with teachers/professors and stuff. I'm sorry to rain on your parade. > ----- Original Message ----- >From: Jamie Principato To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Date sent: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:20:27 -0400 >Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing >Hi all! >So my fiancé and I recently took up rock climbing and have been going to a >local rock gym weekly for the past month or so. We go with friends, but we >are the only two in the group who are interested in top-roping. We're both >blind, and we take turns belaying for one another. I know a fair number of >blind people rock climb, so I was wondering if anyone has any tips or >techniques that you use when you climb, for any aspect of the climb? >How do you choose a path up the wall? There are paths marked with colored >tape, but this is useless to us, so we just wing it and feel out our own >paths, but on harder walls this can be tricky. >How did you get the hang of belaying? Did you use any special technique to >determine when and how quickly your partner is climbing, like maybe have >them wear a bell? Or were you able to tell how quickly to go just by feeling >the slack in the rope? Our guide advised us to just take up slack when we >feel slack, but I've noticed my partner sometimes doesn't feel when I get >higher, and the slack in the rope makes me nervous. >When belaying, how did you prepare to handle falls, since you wouldn't be >able to see when your partner starts to fall? This makes me most nervous, >and I've been told I keep the rope too tight at times for the climber >(especially a male climber) to move comfortably. >Right now I'm going with the advice that this will all come with practice, >but I wondered what experiences other people have. >Thanks, >-Jamie >_______________________________________________ >nabs-l mailing list >nabs-l at nfbnet.org >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: >http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa 5369%40netzero.net From kevinchao89 at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 23:33:29 2011 From: kevinchao89 at gmail.com (Kevin Chao) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 18:33:29 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] College Course Material: Accessible eTextBooks, Braille, and Tactile Graphics Message-ID: I would like to share two fantastic resources for any college student or instructor, which I think should be advocated for, encouraged, and utilized by all. Like most, I've used human readers, scanned books, used RFB&D, and worked with disabled students services to get eTextBooks from publisher. All these things served their purposes and time, and it's time to move on. In fall of 2010, I broke away from the status quo, which includes: not using RFB&D, not scanning textbooks, and not having to be so reliant on disabled student services. Two companies have made this possible: CourseSmart and AMAC. This has allowed equal access, independence, and a true forward studying experience. It's never been possible for us as blind students, instructors, or even providers to use an innovative eTextBook service. * CourseSmart for mainstream, accessible, and highly marked-up 60% off eTextBooks * Alternative Media Access Center (AMAC) for affordable, high-quality, and efficient braille and tactile graphics for textbooks, exams, handouts, assignments, etc http://www.CourseSmart.com is a mainstream accessible eTextBook rental service, which all students can take advantage of. This includes students with or without print-related disabilities (blind, low vision, learning disabled). http://www.amac.uga.edu Alternative Media Access Center (AMAC) will work with institutions to provide braille, tactile graphics, and remediated eText. AMAC has very high-quality and standards and will lift stress off DSS, allowing DSS to focus on providing service, not content. This is the now and future of how students, instructors, and all in post-secondary education will obtain, work with, and enjoy accessible course material. Thanks, Kevin From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 03:53:54 2011 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 23:53:54 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I find that interesting when a good number of e-mails on this list are about things other than school, i.e. training centers, technologies, philosophy, social skills, travel, relationships, independent living, conventions, and so on. Seems strange for the "college-related only" rule to apply in some cases, but not in others. I figured any college student also takes part in recreational activities, just as I do as a student, and that in this city, rock climbing is most popular among college students. It stood to reason that people who met that particular demographic, and who have also likely been to an NFB training center and took place in rock climbing might have something to say about it as a recreational activity that a student would like to take part in. Perhaps I should have mentioned that I'm climbing with a university climbing club, or something. At any rate, thanks for trying. On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 7:22 PM, humberto wrote: > Hi, I'm not sure this topic is really appropriate for this list, unless so > many students go rock climbing instead of going to college! * joke * But you > can join a mailing list that is more related to this topic. It is in the > NFB-NET server as well; you need to send a blank email message to > Sportsandrec-request at nfbnet.org with the subject line "subscribe." there > will be more people willing to talk more about this topic than people in > this list, students who are busy thinking about homework and school and how > stressed up they will be for the next day and challenges with > teachers/professors and stuff. I'm sorry to rain on your parade. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Jamie Principato > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >> > >> Date sent: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:20:27 -0400 >> Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing >> > > Hi all! >> > > So my fiancé and I recently took up rock climbing and have been >> > going to a > >> local rock gym weekly for the past month or so. We go with >> > friends, but we > >> are the only two in the group who are interested in top-roping. >> > We're both > >> blind, and we take turns belaying for one another. I know a fair >> > number of > >> blind people rock climb, so I was wondering if anyone has any >> > tips or > >> techniques that you use when you climb, for any aspect of the >> > climb? > > How do you choose a path up the wall? There are paths marked with >> > colored > >> tape, but this is useless to us, so we just wing it and feel out >> > our own > >> paths, but on harder walls this can be tricky. >> > > How did you get the hang of belaying? Did you use any special >> > technique to > >> determine when and how quickly your partner is climbing, like >> > maybe have > >> them wear a bell? Or were you able to tell how quickly to go just >> > by feeling > >> the slack in the rope? Our guide advised us to just take up slack >> > when we > >> feel slack, but I've noticed my partner sometimes doesn't feel >> > when I get > >> higher, and the slack in the rope makes me nervous. >> > > When belaying, how did you prepare to handle falls, since you >> > wouldn't be > >> able to see when your partner starts to fall? This makes me most >> > nervous, > >> and I've been told I keep the rope too tight at times for the >> > climber > >> (especially a male climber) to move comfortably. >> > > Right now I'm going with the advice that this will all come with >> > practice, > >> but I wondered what experiences other people have. >> > > Thanks, >> > > -Jamie >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >> > for nabs-l: > >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >> > 5369%40netzero.net > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 31 04:05:32 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 00:05:32 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible handouts/matterial Message-ID: <0FEEE790DF3F4E42BCD06761EC7F8E31@OwnerPC> Hi all, Well after advocacy, some professors don’t get it. An update. As you know I am trying to get accessible handouts/notes as it is in my accomodation letter. I gather that your professors send you handouts before class or a day after. That is good and often professors have done just that. Well, know what? I sent the comm professor an email last week about the handouts. What happened? Today we got another handout on a paper! I did not get the accessible electronic copy! I could not ask him because we were planning a group project and he left before class ended. I will tell my disability counselor. Meanwhile, I can scan the handout. I have come to the conclusion he will just not be accomodating and do much different. He is a nice guy but very busy and one that I think makes up the schedule shortly before class. He can be funny and gets the class involved through questions. But communication has some to be desired. The grammar professor has emailed me the handouts including the powerpoint from the last student presenter. But she did it this week, which did not allow me any time before today’s class to study/learn the matterial! She is a bit more receptive than the comm professor. I am frustrated but came to the conclusion it will likely be that way for the duration of the semester. I will always encounter student handouts I cannot read! Tonight one girl had a large multi page handout but she was nice enough to tell me she would email it to me privately using my more accessible earthlink account. The professor decided that students would present on one chapter and teach the class for a grade. Students have slides and/or handouts. Unless they go the extra mile to email them to me, I will have to just listen. I did tell them at the end of class to email me in advance please, but no one but today’s one presenter took down my email. BTW she is also Ashley and she plans to teach English; maybe that is why she is more cognicent of needs. In the original syllabus, students were not going to present, but were going to be tested; then she changed the syllabus and now instead of a test, students are presenting. I’ll have to do the best I can. At least the professor reads some of the slide or paraphrases in cases where the speaker is unclear. Comm stands for communication. Ashley From kevinchao89 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 14:53:36 2011 From: kevinchao89 at gmail.com (Kevin Chao) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:53:36 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible handouts/matterial In-Reply-To: <0FEEE790DF3F4E42BCD06761EC7F8E31@OwnerPC> References: <0FEEE790DF3F4E42BCD06761EC7F8E31@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Ashley and All, Have you taken things up with dean, vice chancellor of student services, and others who are above and beyond professor and disabled student services? After my awful experience with disabled student services, I've come to rely on them much less, work with professors directly, and when professors were unwilling to accommodate, I've resorted to above. A lot of advocacy is needed in this area. Yes, it's valid to feel frustrated. However, expectations should be set much higher, where you should and will get all accessible material now and forever. Kevin On 3/30/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > Well after advocacy, some professors don’t get it. > > > An update. > As you know I am trying to get accessible handouts/notes as it is in my > accomodation letter. > > I gather that your professors send you handouts before class or a day after. > That is good and often professors have done just that. > > Well, know what? I sent the comm professor an email last week about the > handouts. What happened? Today we got another handout on a paper! I did not > get the accessible electronic copy! > I could not ask him because we were planning a group project and he left > before class ended. > I will tell my disability counselor. Meanwhile, I can scan the handout. > > I have come to the conclusion he will just not be accomodating and do much > different. He is a nice guy but very busy and one that I think makes up the > schedule shortly before class. He can be funny and gets the class involved > through questions. But communication has some to be desired. > > The grammar professor has emailed me the handouts including the powerpoint > from the last student presenter. But she did it this week, which did not > allow me any time before today’s class to study/learn the matterial! She is > a bit more receptive than the comm professor. > > I am frustrated but came to the conclusion it will likely be that way for > the duration of the semester. I will always encounter student handouts I > cannot read! > Tonight one girl had a large multi page handout but she was nice enough to > tell me she would email it to me privately using my more accessible > earthlink > account. > The professor decided that students would present on one chapter and teach > the class for a grade. Students have slides and/or handouts. Unless they go > the extra mile to email them to me, I will have to just listen. > I did tell them at the end of class to email me in advance please, but no > one but today’s one presenter took down my email. > BTW she is also Ashley and she plans to teach English; maybe that is why she > is more cognicent of needs. > In the original syllabus, students were not going to present, but were going > to be tested; then she changed the syllabus and now instead of a test, > students are presenting. I’ll have to do the best I can. > At least the professor reads some of the slide or paraphrases in cases where > the speaker is unclear. > > Comm stands for communication. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > From enews at codefactory.info Thu Mar 31 15:59:10 2011 From: enews at codefactory.info (Code Factory News (no reply)) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 10:59:10 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Mobile Accessibility is Now Available for Purchase Message-ID: Logo Code Factory Caroline Ragot - Marketing marketing at codefactory.es Mobile Accessibility On Sale Mobile Accessibility is Now Available for Purchase Making Android Phones Accessible to the Blind Terrassa (Barcelona), Spain, March 30th, 2011 Mobile Accessibility, our screen-access application that allows people who are blind or have low vision to use an Android phone in an intuitive, easy and simple way, is now on sale. Mobile Accessibility is the first accessible Android application that permits intuitive touchscreen navigation of Android phones, featuring text readback via natural sounding voices powered by Nuance’s Vocalizer® text-to-speech technology. You can purchase the application directly from the Market application of your Android phone, or from the web page: * US English: https://market.android.com/details?id=es.codefactory.android.app.ma.vocalizerenu&feature=search_result * UK English: https://market.android.com/details?id=es.codefactory.android.app.ma.vocalizereng&feature=search_result For more information on how to purchase your copy of Mobile Accessibility please go to http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=415#getit If you still have not tried it, you should do it now. Our 30-day demos are available here: * Mobile Accessibility Demo US: https://market.android.com/details?id=es.codefactory.android.app.ma.vocalizerenudemo&feature=search_result * Mobile Accessibility Demo UK: https://market.android.com/details?id=es.codefactory.android.app.ma.vocalizerengdemo&feature=search_result Mobile Accessibility is only available in English at the moment. Languages to follow soon are: Spanish, Italian, German, French and Portuguese. Mobile Accessibility doesn't support multiple languages at one time. If you buy the English version of Mobile Accessibility you will not be able to use it in another language like French or Spanish. There will be a specific version of Mobile Accessibility for each language and each version will have to be purchased separately. US and UK English are 2 different languages. Mobile Accessibility is two products in one: * A suite of 10 accessible applications (Phone, Contacts, SMS, Alarm, Calendar, Email, Web, Where am I, Apps and Settings) that have been specially designed for the blind and visually impaired. They all have a simplified interface whose textual information is spoken using Nuance Vocalizer® voice synthesis. * A screen reader that allows users to get out of the suite and navigate the standard interface of their phone. The major features of Mobile Accessibility are the following: * Touch navigation: You can use Mobile Accessibility not only with the trackball or the physical keyboard of your phone, but also with its touchscreen! Simply move your finger around the screen and the voice synthesis will read the text located under your finger. Or if you prefer, you can also swipe up/down/right/left and tap on the screen to navigate through the interface. And if you wish you can enable sound and vibration feedback. * Easy to input text: In or outside the Mobile Accessibility suite you can use the touch QWERTY keyboard as well as speech recognition to write text quickly and easily. Imagine writing an SMS or an Email using your voice only. * Voice synthesis: Code Factory has been making mobile phones accessible to the blind and visually impaired for many years now, and they know that the voice matters... and a lot! For Mobile Accessibility, Code Factory has partnered with Nuance® to leverage its trusted Vocalizer text-to-speech technology, providing consumers with natural sounding voice readback. Inside the Mobile Accessibility suite of accessible applications you can do the following * Phone: Make calls, answer calls, hear the caller ID and manage your call log. * Contacts: Manage your contacts, even those from social networks such as Facebook. * SMS: Compose and read short messages. Manage conversations. * Alarms: Set your alarms. * Web: Full web browser experience, similar to what you can find on your PC. Jump by the control of your choice (links, paragraphs, headings, forms, etc.) to navigate faster to the information of your interest. Bookmark your favourite webpages. * Calendar: Create, edit and delete a calendar entry. View all events per day, week or month. * Email: Full access to your Gmail account * Where am I? : GPS application that gives you updates on your current location. * Settings: Change ringtone. Configure feedback and notifications (vibration or audio). Configure keyboard echo, punctuation verbosity, speech pitch and rate, etc. * Quick access to date and time, phone status information such as battery level and network coverage, number of missed calls and unread messages, etc. To hear Mobile Accessibility in action listen to videos and audio demos at http://www.codefactory.es/en/products.asp?id=415#video Mobile Accessibility supports all Android phones from version 2.1 and above. Please note that voice recognition is only supported with version 2.2 and above. Note also that if you want to use the screen reader functionality of Mobile Accessibility you will need a phone with physical navigational controls such as a trackball or trackpad. You can find more information about Android phones at http://www.google.com/phone/#manufacturer=all&category=all&carrier=all&country=all&reset_filters=1 To learn how to use Mobile Accessibility for Android, please consult the user guide at http://www.codefactory.es/MA/en/ma_1_0_manual.html. For technical assistance, please submit a ticket through Code Factory’s Help Desk at http://www.codefactory.cat/helpdesk/ For more information, feel free to contact Code Factory S.L.: Code Factory, S.L., Rambla d'Egara 148 2-2, 08221 Terrassa (Barcelona) HelpDesk, www.codefactory.es Code Factory, S.L. - 2011 From JFreeh at nfb.org Thu Mar 31 16:03:20 2011 From: JFreeh at nfb.org (Freeh, Jessica) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 11:03:20 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] McCarran International Airport Discriminates Against Blind Passengers Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: Chris Danielsen Director of Public Relations National Federation of the Blind (410) 659-9314, extension 2330 (410) 262-1281 (Cell) cdanielsen at nfb.org McCarran International Airport Discriminates Against Blind Passengers National Federation of the Blind Files Suit Over Inaccessible Kiosks Las Vegas, Nevada (March 30, 2011): The National Federation of the Blind and four blind individuals­Alan and Billie Ruth Schlank, Joyce Pratt, and Mark Adreon­who frequently fly or plan to fly to and from Las Vegas through McCarran International Airport, have filed a class-action lawsuit in the United States District Court for the District of Nevada against Clark County, Nevada; the Clark County Board of Commissioners; and the Clark County Department of Aviation, which administers McCarran International Airport. McCarran uses common-use self-service (CUSS) ticketing kiosks that employ a visual touchscreen interface without any auxiliary aids, such as a voice guidance program, and therefore cannot be used by blind passengers. Passengers who are able to use the kiosks can access information about flights, check in for flights, print tickets and boarding passes, select seats, upgrade to business or first-class cabins, check baggage, and perform other transactions relevant to their air travel plans. CUSS kiosks are unique because they are owned or controlled by the airport instead of by individual airlines and allow passengers to access most of the airlines operating at McCarran from any machine. The suit alleges that the defendants are violating the Americans with Disabilities Act and the Rehabilitation Act of 1973 because the benefits provided to travelers through these kiosks are not available to blind visitors to the airport. McCarran could easily add an audio interface, a tactile keypad, or interactive screen reader technology that works with touchscreens to its kiosks, or purchase kiosks with these features, but has neglected to do so. McCarran has also refused to respond to the plaintiffs’ offer to work collaboratively on implementing available technological solutions. Dr. Marc Maurer, President of the National Federation of the Blind, said: “Blind passengers have always experienced discrimination in air travel, but the fact that airports like McCarran are now deploying inaccessible technology to perform routine travel functions is the greatest threat to the privacy and independence of blind air travelers that we have seen. Airports and airlines are engaging in this blatant discrimination even though the technology to make kiosks accessible is readily available, has been deployed by others, and involves little cost. Instead of enjoying the features and convenience of these kiosks, including a quicker and more convenient check-in process, blind passengers must either wait in long lines at the ticket counter or share personal information with strangers in order to use the kiosks. We will not tolerate a separate and unequal experience for blind travelers and demand that the defendants cease their discrimination against us as soon as practicable.” Plaintiffs are represented in this matter by Daniel F. Goldstein, Gregory P. Care, and Timothy P. Elder of the Baltimore firm Brown, Goldstein, and Levy; Laurence W. Paradis, Karla Gilbride, and Kevin Knestrick of the Berkeley firm Disability Rights Advocates; and Eric Taylor of the Las Vegas firm Alverson, Taylor, Mortenson & Sanders. ### About the National Federation of the Blind With more than 50,000 members, the National Federation of the Blind is the largest and most influential membership organization of blind people in the United States. The NFB improves blind people’s lives through advocacy, education, research, technology, and programs encouraging independence and self-confidence. It is the leading force in the blindness field today and the voice of the nation's blind. In January 2004 the NFB opened the National Federation of the Blind Jernigan Institute, the first research and training center in the United States for the blind led by the blind. From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 31 16:54:04 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:54:04 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible handouts/matterial In-Reply-To: References: <0FEEE790DF3F4E42BCD06761EC7F8E31@OwnerPC> Message-ID: No I did not go to the dean yet. Maybe I will. But I also went to the disability coordinator campus wide about this and the out of date technology on campus. She said the right things but I got no where with here. They still have jaws 8 on campus. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Chao Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 10:53 AM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible handouts/matterial Ashley and All, Have you taken things up with dean, vice chancellor of student services, and others who are above and beyond professor and disabled student services? After my awful experience with disabled student services, I've come to rely on them much less, work with professors directly, and when professors were unwilling to accommodate, I've resorted to above. A lot of advocacy is needed in this area. Yes, it's valid to feel frustrated. However, expectations should be set much higher, where you should and will get all accessible material now and forever. Kevin On 3/30/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > Hi all, > Well after advocacy, some professors don’t get it. > > > An update. > As you know I am trying to get accessible handouts/notes as it is in my > accomodation letter. > > I gather that your professors send you handouts before class or a day > after. > That is good and often professors have done just that. > > Well, know what? I sent the comm professor an email last week about the > handouts. What happened? Today we got another handout on a paper! I did > not > get the accessible electronic copy! > I could not ask him because we were planning a group project and he left > before class ended. > I will tell my disability counselor. Meanwhile, I can scan the handout. > > I have come to the conclusion he will just not be accomodating and do much > different. He is a nice guy but very busy and one that I think makes up > the > schedule shortly before class. He can be funny and gets the class > involved > through questions. But communication has some to be desired. > > The grammar professor has emailed me the handouts including the > powerpoint > from the last student presenter. But she did it this week, which did not > allow me any time before today’s class to study/learn the matterial! She > is > a bit more receptive than the comm professor. > > I am frustrated but came to the conclusion it will likely be that way for > the duration of the semester. I will always encounter student handouts I > cannot read! > Tonight one girl had a large multi page handout but she was nice enough to > tell me she would email it to me privately using my more accessible > earthlink > account. > The professor decided that students would present on one chapter and teach > the class for a grade. Students have slides and/or handouts. Unless they > go > the extra mile to email them to me, I will have to just listen. > I did tell them at the end of class to email me in advance please, but no > one but today’s one presenter took down my email. > BTW she is also Ashley and she plans to teach English; maybe that is why > she > is more cognicent of needs. > In the original syllabus, students were not going to present, but were > going > to be tested; then she changed the syllabus and now instead of a test, > students are presenting. I’ll have to do the best I can. > At least the professor reads some of the slide or paraphrases in cases > where > the speaker is unclear. > > Comm stands for communication. > Ashley > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 17:33:47 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:33:47 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing Message-ID: <01e901cbefc9$cb87f120$6297d360$@com> Humberto, This is a perfectly acceptable topic. Please leave the moderating of the list to David Andrews and the designated NABS list serve committee members. Unless something is plainly and blatantly out of line, i.e. personal attacks or the like, please avoid opining on what is and is not an appropriate topic. Jamie, While I have only gone rock climbing a few times, I have belayed for people, and I felt like I could keep enough slack in the rope for the climbers to climb and not so much that they were in danger of falling without support. I just kept a very gentle pull of tension on the rope at all times. I'm guessing I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but it seemed to work for me. I definitely get where your coming from about not seeing that the climber is about to fall. Obviously, there will be times when you can hear or feel them struggling, but that won't always be the case. I guess the best advice I can offer from my admittedly limited experience is to just be prepared for a fall at all times. Again, not terribly helpful I'm sure, but the best I have to offer. Take care, Sean From smwhalenpsp at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 17:42:53 2011 From: smwhalenpsp at gmail.com (Sean Whalen) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:42:53 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Handouts etc. Message-ID: <01ee01cbefcb$10999010$31ccb030$@com> Not that it's absolutely ideal, but can somebody please explain to me what is so terrible about having to scan something yourself if you have the equipment to do so at your disposal? I understand why multiple long books could be a problem, though scanning those is, by and large, what I did through college. In the time it takes to write a post about how horrible it is to have to scan a handout, the damn thing probably could have been scanned and OCR ed thrice over. Sorry if I'm way off base here, but we have to be prepared to step up and do things for ourselves if we want to succeed, even if it isn't fair or right, which I agree, it isn't. Life isn't always fair, and the right thing isn't always the thing done. Not saying that it's not something to strive for, but while we're striving, we'd better be prepared to deal with the world as it actually exists. Sean From agrima at nbp.org Thu Mar 31 17:42:42 2011 From: agrima at nbp.org (Tony Grima) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 12:42:42 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] NBP-Announce: New: President Obama's "Of Thee I Sing" Message-ID: Of Thee I Sing: A Letter to My Daughters By President Barack Obama In print/braille (contracted) format, Ages 4-8, $17.99 This book was the #2 best-selling picture book of 2010! Framed as a letter to his daughters, President Obama's children's book is a moving tribute to thirteen groundbreaking Americans and the ideals that have shaped our nation. The courage of Jackie Robinson, the creative talent of Billie Holiday, the patriotism of George Washington - President Obama sees the traits of these heroes within his own children, and within all of America's children. Each double-page spread asks a question that is represented by a notable person. "Have I told you that you are strong?" introduces Helen Keller: "She taught us to look at and listen to each other. Never waiting for life to get easier, she gave others the courage to face their challenges." Among those profiled, there are familiar names - Washington, Robinson, and Martin Luther King Jr.- but there are a few nice surprises too, like Jane Addams, Maya Lin, and Sitting Bull. An addendum features a bit more about each person highlighted. This beautiful keepsake book celebrates the characteristics that unite all Americans. Order this book at: http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/THEESING.html ****** To order any books, send payment to: NBP, 88 St. Stephen Street, Boston, MA 02115-4302 Or call and charge it: toll-free (800) 548-7323 or (617) 266-6160 ext 520. Or order any of our books online at http://www.nbp.org/ic/nbp/publications/index.html . _______________________________________________ Nbp mailing list Nbp at nbp.org PLEASE DO NOT respond to this message! It is an automated message and your query will not reach us. Send questions to orders at nbp.org . Visit us at http://www.nbp.org From kirt.crazydude at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 17:55:15 2011 From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com (Kirt Manwaring) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 11:55:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Handouts etc. In-Reply-To: <01ee01cbefcb$10999010$31ccb030$@com> References: <01ee01cbefcb$10999010$31ccb030$@com> Message-ID: Shawn, your suggestion requires work and extra effort. Anything requiring work and extra effort is a thing not worth doing. Therefore, by the logic which lots of blind people follow, your idea simply isn't practical. :) Best, Kirt On 3/31/11, Sean Whalen wrote: > Not that it's absolutely ideal, but can somebody please explain to me what > is so terrible about having to scan something yourself if you have the > equipment to do so at your disposal? I understand why multiple long books > could be a problem, though scanning those is, by and large, what I did > through college. In the time it takes to write a post about how horrible it > is to have to scan a handout, the damn thing probably could have been > scanned and OCR ed thrice over. Sorry if I'm way off base here, but we have > to be prepared to step up and do things for ourselves if we want to succeed, > even if it isn't fair or right, which I agree, it isn't. Life isn't always > fair, and the right thing isn't always the thing done. Not saying that it's > not something to strive for, but while we're striving, we'd better be > prepared to deal with the world as it actually exists. > > > > Sean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > From bpollpeter at hotmail.com Thu Mar 31 19:43:35 2011 From: bpollpeter at hotmail.com (Bridgit Pollpeter) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 14:43:35 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Check out my latest blog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hello, Please check out my latest blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/2011/03/31/disease-plus-kids-can-equal -cruelty/ Bridgit P From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 31 20:13:24 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:13:24 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Check out my latest blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09758C1B91B744AA96EBF66B4C6D4CCB@OwnerPC> I saw the blog. I hope this didn't really happen. No one should chant about dying or diabetes. -----Original Message----- From: Bridgit Pollpeter Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 3:43 PM To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org Subject: [nabs-l] Check out my latest blog Hello, Please check out my latest blog at: http://blogs.livewellnebraska.com/2011/03/31/disease-plus-kids-can-equal -cruelty/ Bridgit P _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From blackbyrdfly at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 21:14:19 2011 From: blackbyrdfly at gmail.com (Jamie Principato) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 17:14:19 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing In-Reply-To: <01e901cbefc9$cb87f120$6297d360$@com> References: <01e901cbefc9$cb87f120$6297d360$@com> Message-ID: Thanks, Sean! While that is more or less what I was told in the orientation session at the rock gym, it does help to hear it from someone else as well. On Thu, Mar 31, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Sean Whalen wrote: > Humberto, > > > > This is a perfectly acceptable topic. Please leave the moderating of the > list to David Andrews and the designated NABS list serve committee members. > Unless something is plainly and blatantly out of line, i.e. personal > attacks > or the like, please avoid opining on what is and is not an appropriate > topic. > > > > Jamie, > > > > While I have only gone rock climbing a few times, I have belayed for > people, > and I felt like I could keep enough slack in the rope for the climbers to > climb and not so much that they were in danger of falling without support. > I > just kept a very gentle pull of tension on the rope at all times. I'm > guessing I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but it seemed > to work for me. I definitely get where your coming from about not seeing > that the climber is about to fall. Obviously, there will be times when you > can hear or feel them struggling, but that won't always be the case. I > guess > the best advice I can offer from my admittedly limited experience is to > just > be prepared for a fall at all times. Again, not terribly helpful I'm sure, > but the best I have to offer. > > > > Take care, > > > > Sean > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com > From nabs.president at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 21:21:15 2011 From: nabs.president at gmail.com (Arielle Silverman) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 15:21:15 -0600 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes this is completely on-topic for this list. Rock climbing is a popular student activity, and it is useful for us students to trade ideas on not only how to climb, but also how to belay another climber. I know at my old university there was an indoor climbing wall at our student union and I believe other universities have climbing groups or local rock gyms that students like to frequent. Arielle On 3/30/11, Jamie Principato wrote: > I find that interesting when a good number of e-mails on this list are about > things other than school, i.e. training centers, technologies, philosophy, > social skills, travel, relationships, independent living, conventions, and > so on. Seems strange for the "college-related only" rule to apply in some > cases, but not in others. I figured any college student also takes part in > recreational activities, just as I do as a student, and that in this city, > rock climbing is most popular among college students. It stood to reason > that people who met that particular demographic, and who have also likely > been to an NFB training center and took place in rock climbing might have > something to say about it as a recreational activity that a student would > like to take part in. Perhaps I should have mentioned that I'm climbing with > a university climbing club, or something. At any rate, thanks for trying. > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 7:22 PM, humberto wrote: > >> Hi, I'm not sure this topic is really appropriate for this list, unless so >> many students go rock climbing instead of going to college! * joke * But >> you >> can join a mailing list that is more related to this topic. It is in the >> NFB-NET server as well; you need to send a blank email message to >> Sportsandrec-request at nfbnet.org with the subject line "subscribe." there >> will be more people willing to talk more about this topic than people in >> this list, students who are busy thinking about homework and school and >> how >> stressed up they will be for the next day and challenges with >> teachers/professors and stuff. I'm sorry to rain on your parade. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jamie Principato >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> > >>> Date sent: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:20:27 -0400 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing >>> >> >> Hi all! >>> >> >> So my fiancé and I recently took up rock climbing and have been >>> >> going to a >> >>> local rock gym weekly for the past month or so. We go with >>> >> friends, but we >> >>> are the only two in the group who are interested in top-roping. >>> >> We're both >> >>> blind, and we take turns belaying for one another. I know a fair >>> >> number of >> >>> blind people rock climb, so I was wondering if anyone has any >>> >> tips or >> >>> techniques that you use when you climb, for any aspect of the >>> >> climb? >> >> How do you choose a path up the wall? There are paths marked with >>> >> colored >> >>> tape, but this is useless to us, so we just wing it and feel out >>> >> our own >> >>> paths, but on harder walls this can be tricky. >>> >> >> How did you get the hang of belaying? Did you use any special >>> >> technique to >> >>> determine when and how quickly your partner is climbing, like >>> >> maybe have >> >>> them wear a bell? Or were you able to tell how quickly to go just >>> >> by feeling >> >>> the slack in the rope? Our guide advised us to just take up slack >>> >> when we >> >>> feel slack, but I've noticed my partner sometimes doesn't feel >>> >> when I get >> >>> higher, and the slack in the rope makes me nervous. >>> >> >> When belaying, how did you prepare to handle falls, since you >>> >> wouldn't be >> >>> able to see when your partner starts to fall? This makes me most >>> >> nervous, >> >>> and I've been told I keep the rope too tight at times for the >>> >> climber >> >>> (especially a male climber) to move comfortably. >>> >> >> Right now I'm going with the advice that this will all come with >>> >> practice, >> >>> but I wondered what experiences other people have. >>> >> >> Thanks, >>> >> >> -Jamie >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>> >> 5369%40netzero.net >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 31 21:53:40 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 17:53:40 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Handouts etc. In-Reply-To: References: <01ee01cbefcb$10999010$31ccb030$@com> Message-ID: <3D4635A01E764A8B92A788D15DB1ADA4@OwnerPC> Hey Kirt, I agree. Its extra work and effort but I will resort to it if needed. I feel that that electronic handouts give me more equal access. I can read the format like bold and italics then. Besides some handouts are tables and will not scan. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:55 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Handouts etc. Shawn, your suggestion requires work and extra effort. Anything requiring work and extra effort is a thing not worth doing. Therefore, by the logic which lots of blind people follow, your idea simply isn't practical. :) Best, Kirt On 3/31/11, Sean Whalen wrote: > Not that it's absolutely ideal, but can somebody please explain to me what > is so terrible about having to scan something yourself if you have the > equipment to do so at your disposal? I understand why multiple long books > could be a problem, though scanning those is, by and large, what I did > through college. In the time it takes to write a post about how horrible > it > is to have to scan a handout, the damn thing probably could have been > scanned and OCR ed thrice over. Sorry if I'm way off base here, but we > have > to be prepared to step up and do things for ourselves if we want to > succeed, > even if it isn't fair or right, which I agree, it isn't. Life isn't always > fair, and the right thing isn't always the thing done. Not saying that > it's > not something to strive for, but while we're striving, we'd better be > prepared to deal with the world as it actually exists. > > > > Sean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From debbiewunder at earthlink.net Thu Mar 31 21:57:01 2011 From: debbiewunder at earthlink.net (Debbie Wunder) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 16:57:01 -0500 Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing References: Message-ID: Hi, I think this topic is interesting, and by the way when applying for scholarships of any king, often what other activities a person is involved in adds to being a well rounded person. Also I would say that being involved in a rock climbing club can be very beneficial to anystudents. I would think that great problem sovliving goes into what you do, and also if you are able to rock climb, then maybe you will also believe in yourself when it comes to working on labs or other classroom situations. Congratulations for your involvement. You might find even better advise on list such as blind talk, or contacting the CCB for some advise. Good Luck! Keep climbing and studying hard! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Silverman" To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list" Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing Yes this is completely on-topic for this list. Rock climbing is a popular student activity, and it is useful for us students to trade ideas on not only how to climb, but also how to belay another climber. I know at my old university there was an indoor climbing wall at our student union and I believe other universities have climbing groups or local rock gyms that students like to frequent. Arielle On 3/30/11, Jamie Principato wrote: > I find that interesting when a good number of e-mails on this list are > about > things other than school, i.e. training centers, technologies, philosophy, > social skills, travel, relationships, independent living, conventions, and > so on. Seems strange for the "college-related only" rule to apply in some > cases, but not in others. I figured any college student also takes part in > recreational activities, just as I do as a student, and that in this city, > rock climbing is most popular among college students. It stood to reason > that people who met that particular demographic, and who have also likely > been to an NFB training center and took place in rock climbing might have > something to say about it as a recreational activity that a student would > like to take part in. Perhaps I should have mentioned that I'm climbing > with > a university climbing club, or something. At any rate, thanks for trying. > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2011 at 7:22 PM, humberto > wrote: > >> Hi, I'm not sure this topic is really appropriate for this list, unless >> so >> many students go rock climbing instead of going to college! * joke * But >> you >> can join a mailing list that is more related to this topic. It is in the >> NFB-NET server as well; you need to send a blank email message to >> Sportsandrec-request at nfbnet.org with the subject line "subscribe." there >> will be more people willing to talk more about this topic than people in >> this list, students who are busy thinking about homework and school and >> how >> stressed up they will be for the next day and challenges with >> teachers/professors and stuff. I'm sorry to rain on your parade. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Jamie Principato >> To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list >>> >> > >>> Date sent: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 00:20:27 -0400 >>> Subject: [nabs-l] Blind people rock climbing >>> >> >> Hi all! >>> >> >> So my fiancé and I recently took up rock climbing and have been >>> >> going to a >> >>> local rock gym weekly for the past month or so. We go with >>> >> friends, but we >> >>> are the only two in the group who are interested in top-roping. >>> >> We're both >> >>> blind, and we take turns belaying for one another. I know a fair >>> >> number of >> >>> blind people rock climb, so I was wondering if anyone has any >>> >> tips or >> >>> techniques that you use when you climb, for any aspect of the >>> >> climb? >> >> How do you choose a path up the wall? There are paths marked with >>> >> colored >> >>> tape, but this is useless to us, so we just wing it and feel out >>> >> our own >> >>> paths, but on harder walls this can be tricky. >>> >> >> How did you get the hang of belaying? Did you use any special >>> >> technique to >> >>> determine when and how quickly your partner is climbing, like >>> >> maybe have >> >>> them wear a bell? Or were you able to tell how quickly to go just >>> >> by feeling >> >>> the slack in the rope? Our guide advised us to just take up slack >>> >> when we >> >>> feel slack, but I've noticed my partner sometimes doesn't feel >>> >> when I get >> >>> higher, and the slack in the rope makes me nervous. >>> >> >> When belaying, how did you prepare to handle falls, since you >>> >> wouldn't be >> >>> able to see when your partner starts to fall? This makes me most >>> >> nervous, >> >>> and I've been told I keep the rope too tight at times for the >>> >> climber >> >>> (especially a male climber) to move comfortably. >>> >> >> Right now I'm going with the advice that this will all come with >>> >> practice, >> >>> but I wondered what experiences other people have. >>> >> >> Thanks, >>> >> >> -Jamie >>> _______________________________________________ >>> nabs-l mailing list >>> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >>> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info >>> >> for nabs-l: >> >>> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/humbertoa >>> >> 5369%40netzero.net >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/blackbyrdfly%40gmail.com >> > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/nabs.president%40gmail.com > -- Arielle Silverman President, National Association of Blind Students Phone: 602-502-2255 Email: nabs.president at gmail.com Website: www.nabslink.org _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/debbiewunder%40earthlink.net From bunnykatie6 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 22:12:46 2011 From: bunnykatie6 at gmail.com (Katie Wang) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 18:12:46 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible handouts/matterial In-Reply-To: References: <0FEEE790DF3F4E42BCD06761EC7F8E31@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Hi, Ashley, I would not suggest going to the dean or someone above your professors for this issue. If you could convince the disability director at your school to speak with the professors, that would be great, but if not you might need to continue reminding your professors about your access needs. From my experience, instructors generally don't mind sending out materials in electronic format, but they can often get distracted and forget. Many also tend to finalize their lectures at the last minute, which makes it impractical to send you the slides beforehand. I have always been fine with receiving my slides after class rather than in advance; professors generally explain/paraphrase what is on the slides as they lecture, so I rarely find it difficult to follow the class without access to the PowerPoint. I take plenty of notes in class, and slides mostly supplement my notes by providing an extra level of detail-- They do not, and should not, serve as the only study tool! An alternative to receiving slides via email is to bring a flash drive to class and ask your professor to copy his presentation off the computer after lecture-- before he can forget! As for handouts, I think they are a bit easier to handle. As Shawn said, scanning, while not ideal, is a very feasible option of accessing printed materials. I'm not suggesting for you to stop advocating for yourself-- It is indeed frustrating to not receive materials in an accessible format, especially considering that it is something your instructor could easily provide. However, it is also essential to establish a good working relationship with your instructor, and going above him for something relatively minor is not the way to accomplish this (if he refuses to provide you exams in an accessible format or does not inform you of the required books in advance, that is a different matter). Keep communicating with your professor, and remind the disability office that they are supposed to serve as a liaison between students and professors and make sure that you get your accomoodations. Meanwhile, practice your note-taking skills in class, and be prepared for the reality that scanning is necessary once in a while. Good luck! Katie On 3/31/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > No I did not go to the dean yet. Maybe I will. > But I also went to the disability coordinator campus wide about this and the > out of date technology on campus. > She said the right things but I got no where with here. They still have > jaws 8 on campus. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Chao > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 10:53 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible handouts/matterial > > Ashley and All, > > Have you taken things up with dean, vice chancellor of student > services, and others who are above and beyond professor and disabled > student services? > > After my awful experience with disabled student services, I've come to > rely on them much less, work with professors directly, and when > professors were unwilling to accommodate, I've resorted to above. A > lot of advocacy is needed in this area. > > Yes, it's valid to feel frustrated. However, expectations should be > set much higher, where you should and will get all accessible material > now and forever. > > Kevin > > On 3/30/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi all, >> Well after advocacy, some professors don’t get it. >> >> >> An update. >> As you know I am trying to get accessible handouts/notes as it is in my >> accomodation letter. >> >> I gather that your professors send you handouts before class or a day >> after. >> That is good and often professors have done just that. >> >> Well, know what? I sent the comm professor an email last week about the >> handouts. What happened? Today we got another handout on a paper! I did >> not >> get the accessible electronic copy! >> I could not ask him because we were planning a group project and he left >> before class ended. >> I will tell my disability counselor. Meanwhile, I can scan the handout. >> >> I have come to the conclusion he will just not be accomodating and do much >> different. He is a nice guy but very busy and one that I think makes up >> the >> schedule shortly before class. He can be funny and gets the class >> involved >> through questions. But communication has some to be desired. >> >> The grammar professor has emailed me the handouts including the >> powerpoint >> from the last student presenter. But she did it this week, which did not >> allow me any time before today’s class to study/learn the matterial! She >> is >> a bit more receptive than the comm professor. >> >> I am frustrated but came to the conclusion it will likely be that way for >> the duration of the semester. I will always encounter student handouts I >> cannot read! >> Tonight one girl had a large multi page handout but she was nice enough to >> tell me she would email it to me privately using my more accessible >> earthlink >> account. >> The professor decided that students would present on one chapter and teach >> the class for a grade. Students have slides and/or handouts. Unless they >> go >> the extra mile to email them to me, I will have to just listen. >> I did tell them at the end of class to email me in advance please, but no >> one but today’s one presenter took down my email. >> BTW she is also Ashley and she plans to teach English; maybe that is why >> she >> is more cognicent of needs. >> In the original syllabus, students were not going to present, but were >> going >> to be tested; then she changed the syllabus and now instead of a test, >> students are presenting. I’ll have to do the best I can. >> At least the professor reads some of the slide or paraphrases in cases >> where >> the speaker is unclear. >> >> Comm stands for communication. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > From bookwormahb at earthlink.net Thu Mar 31 22:25:35 2011 From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net (bookwormahb at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 18:25:35 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] accessible handouts/matterial In-Reply-To: References: <0FEEE790DF3F4E42BCD06761EC7F8E31@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Katie, Slides do supplement our own notes I agree. I also take notes in class and use them as my primary study tool. I would be fine receiving the slides after class, but I want them in a reasonable time, maybe a day or two. Regarding handouts, I still contend I'd need them in advance For instance our comm professor says, are there any more questions on the assignment? He handed out instructions. But of course I couldn't read it and he gave very few verbal guidelines. I need to review such stuff in advance because I can't read it in class. This makes me more prepared for class. I also attempt to follow up later and the prof doesn't answer emails. I will definitely complain on my evaluation; he should communicate with any student. I know other students have communication issues too. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Katie Wang Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 6:12 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible handouts/matterial Hi, Ashley, I would not suggest going to the dean or someone above your professors for this issue. If you could convince the disability director at your school to speak with the professors, that would be great, but if not you might need to continue reminding your professors about your access needs. From my experience, instructors generally don't mind sending out materials in electronic format, but they can often get distracted and forget. Many also tend to finalize their lectures at the last minute, which makes it impractical to send you the slides beforehand. I have always been fine with receiving my slides after class rather than in advance; professors generally explain/paraphrase what is on the slides as they lecture, so I rarely find it difficult to follow the class without access to the PowerPoint. I take plenty of notes in class, and slides mostly supplement my notes by providing an extra level of detail-- They do not, and should not, serve as the only study tool! An alternative to receiving slides via email is to bring a flash drive to class and ask your professor to copy his presentation off the computer after lecture-- before he can forget! As for handouts, I think they are a bit easier to handle. As Shawn said, scanning, while not ideal, is a very feasible option of accessing printed materials. I'm not suggesting for you to stop advocating for yourself-- It is indeed frustrating to not receive materials in an accessible format, especially considering that it is something your instructor could easily provide. However, it is also essential to establish a good working relationship with your instructor, and going above him for something relatively minor is not the way to accomplish this (if he refuses to provide you exams in an accessible format or does not inform you of the required books in advance, that is a different matter). Keep communicating with your professor, and remind the disability office that they are supposed to serve as a liaison between students and professors and make sure that you get your accomoodations. Meanwhile, practice your note-taking skills in class, and be prepared for the reality that scanning is necessary once in a while. Good luck! Katie On 3/31/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: > No I did not go to the dean yet. Maybe I will. > But I also went to the disability coordinator campus wide about this and > the > out of date technology on campus. > She said the right things but I got no where with here. They still have > jaws 8 on campus. > Ashley > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kevin Chao > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 10:53 AM > To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] accessible handouts/matterial > > Ashley and All, > > Have you taken things up with dean, vice chancellor of student > services, and others who are above and beyond professor and disabled > student services? > > After my awful experience with disabled student services, I've come to > rely on them much less, work with professors directly, and when > professors were unwilling to accommodate, I've resorted to above. A > lot of advocacy is needed in this area. > > Yes, it's valid to feel frustrated. However, expectations should be > set much higher, where you should and will get all accessible material > now and forever. > > Kevin > > On 3/30/11, bookwormahb at earthlink.net wrote: >> Hi all, >> Well after advocacy, some professors don’t get it. >> >> >> An update. >> As you know I am trying to get accessible handouts/notes as it is in my >> accomodation letter. >> >> I gather that your professors send you handouts before class or a day >> after. >> That is good and often professors have done just that. >> >> Well, know what? I sent the comm professor an email last week about the >> handouts. What happened? Today we got another handout on a paper! I did >> not >> get the accessible electronic copy! >> I could not ask him because we were planning a group project and he left >> before class ended. >> I will tell my disability counselor. Meanwhile, I can scan the handout. >> >> I have come to the conclusion he will just not be accomodating and do >> much >> different. He is a nice guy but very busy and one that I think makes up >> the >> schedule shortly before class. He can be funny and gets the class >> involved >> through questions. But communication has some to be desired. >> >> The grammar professor has emailed me the handouts including the >> powerpoint >> from the last student presenter. But she did it this week, which did not >> allow me any time before today’s class to study/learn the matterial! She >> is >> a bit more receptive than the comm professor. >> >> I am frustrated but came to the conclusion it will likely be that way for >> the duration of the semester. I will always encounter student handouts I >> cannot read! >> Tonight one girl had a large multi page handout but she was nice enough >> to >> tell me she would email it to me privately using my more accessible >> earthlink >> account. >> The professor decided that students would present on one chapter and >> teach >> the class for a grade. Students have slides and/or handouts. Unless they >> go >> the extra mile to email them to me, I will have to just listen. >> I did tell them at the end of class to email me in advance please, but no >> one but today’s one presenter took down my email. >> BTW she is also Ashley and she plans to teach English; maybe that is why >> she >> is more cognicent of needs. >> In the original syllabus, students were not going to present, but were >> going >> to be tested; then she changed the syllabus and now instead of a test, >> students are presenting. I’ll have to do the best I can. >> At least the professor reads some of the slide or paraphrases in cases >> where >> the speaker is unclear. >> >> Comm stands for communication. >> Ashley >> _______________________________________________ >> nabs-l mailing list >> nabs-l at nfbnet.org >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org >> To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for >> nabs-l: >> http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kevinchao89%40gmail.com >> > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bunnykatie6%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net From anjelinac26 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 23:16:38 2011 From: anjelinac26 at gmail.com (Anjelina) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 19:16:38 -0400 Subject: [nabs-l] Handouts etc. In-Reply-To: <3D4635A01E764A8B92A788D15DB1ADA4@OwnerPC> References: <01ee01cbefcb$10999010$31ccb030$@com> <3D4635A01E764A8B92A788D15DB1ADA4@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <39FA707880C44590B2E3BC0ABA9C1DCC@AnjelinaPC> Ashley, I use Kurzweil to scan any printed documents and receive the same visual feedback as I would if the document were emailed. This is just my opinion: I always take any printed material that's passed out in class even if the professor says it'll be emailed to me. I feel it's my responsibility to use the technology I have to make the class accessible. For me depending on the professor is the second alternative. We fortunately have sites such as Blackboard and D2l which have the documents ready to download but it's helpful to not forget the alternative techniques. Using the slate and stylus, scanning, and readers are just a few reliable tools to have at the ready. -----Original Message----- From: bookwormahb at earthlink.net Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 5:53 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Handouts etc. Hey Kirt, I agree. Its extra work and effort but I will resort to it if needed. I feel that that electronic handouts give me more equal access. I can read the format like bold and italics then. Besides some handouts are tables and will not scan. Ashley -----Original Message----- From: Kirt Manwaring Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 1:55 PM To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list Subject: Re: [nabs-l] Handouts etc. Shawn, your suggestion requires work and extra effort. Anything requiring work and extra effort is a thing not worth doing. Therefore, by the logic which lots of blind people follow, your idea simply isn't practical. :) Best, Kirt On 3/31/11, Sean Whalen wrote: > Not that it's absolutely ideal, but can somebody please explain to me what > is so terrible about having to scan something yourself if you have the > equipment to do so at your disposal? I understand why multiple long books > could be a problem, though scanning those is, by and large, what I did > through college. In the time it takes to write a post about how horrible > it > is to have to scan a handout, the damn thing probably could have been > scanned and OCR ed thrice over. Sorry if I'm way off base here, but we > have > to be prepared to step up and do things for ourselves if we want to > succeed, > even if it isn't fair or right, which I agree, it isn't. Life isn't always > fair, and the right thing isn't always the thing done. Not saying that > it's > not something to strive for, but while we're striving, we'd better be > prepared to deal with the world as it actually exists. > > > > Sean > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > nabs-l mailing list > nabs-l at nfbnet.org > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org > To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for > nabs-l: > http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/kirt.crazydude%40gmail.com > _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/bookwormahb%40earthlink.net _______________________________________________ nabs-l mailing list nabs-l at nfbnet.org http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/listinfo/nabs-l_nfbnet.org To unsubscribe, change your list options or get your account info for nabs-l: http://www.nfbnet.org/mailman/options/nabs-l_nfbnet.org/anjelinac26%40gmail.com Anjelina