[nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint

Thu Mar 17 13:04:41 UTC 2011

Ignasi,

The complaint is not centered around the basic Google features: GMail,
Calendar, and Contacts.  You can't possibly think that schools are
leveraging the platform merely to give their students a different way to
communicate and keep track of their schedules?  It's about Docs, and Sites
and the other wide range of Google products that enrich the educational
field and provide the incentive for universities to completely switch out
their platforms.  The press release could have been written a little better
to reflect this point, but understand there is more at consideration than
the basic features people use outside of schools and businesses.

Kirt,

I don't know that it's true the NFB has money to spare.  We need to
understand that despite our critics' position that we sue everyone under the
sun, the leadership really does prioritize and act on cases with the most
immediate impact.  I'm glad that education is important enough to the
leadership for it to continue pursuing avenues to improve the quality of
studies for students.  For all their grumblings on the ACB student list, I'm
not sure the ACB can claim the same high priority.

Jorge,

If an organization wants to get attention for themselves, they don't attract
it by filing complaints against corporations, or in this case, educational
institutions.  In some rare cases negative publicity can be hammered into
something ultimately beneficial, but for a nonprofit with limited funds, it
files complaints because change needs to happen and not because it hopes its
opposition will suddenly change heart and applaud the NFB's efforts.  There
are enough projects to draw positive attention to its activities.

Anyway, just my thoughts,

Joe

"Hard work spotlights the character of people: some turn up their sleeves,
some turn up their noses, and some don't turn up at all."--Sam Ewing
-----Original Message-----
From: nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org [mailto:nabs-l-bounces at nfbnet.org] On Behalf
Of Ignasi Cambra
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 6:37 AM
To: National Association of Blind Students mailing list
Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint

Again, there is no way you can say that gmail is not accessible, even for
opening attachments. The default version of the site which comes up when you
log in might not be perfectly accessible with all screen readers, but there
is a link called "basic html" which you can use to switch to a different
version of the site, which does work very well with screen readers. You can
navigate it by headers and attachments open just fine.
If you don't like that, you can always get emails from an email client such
as Outlook, Thunderbird, Apple Mail...whatever you like!
The situation with google calendar is pretty much the same. The only big
problem comes with Google docs. To the best of my knowledge, that's actually
not accessible as of today. Some office suites will allow you to retrieve
Google docs documents, work on them and save them. But the Google docs site
itself is not accessible.
On Mar 17, 2011, at 12:27 AM, <bookwormahb at earthlink.net>
<bookwormahb at earthlink.net> wrote:

> My school, nova, uses the google email application too.  What I hate is
trying to open attachments.  They are so hard to find among the links and
text!
> You have to find the attachment link to click and download. Quite
frustrating.
> Yes colleges do have a choice and unfortunately when choosing software to
communicate in and out of class, accessibility is not considered.
> Ashley
> 
> -----Original Message----- From: Elizabeth
> Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2011 12:01 AM
> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
> 
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> I am by no means an expert in the field of technology, but I do know from
my own personal experience that the Google applications used by some
colleges and universities are not accessible. I know this to be true because
my college uses the Google email application for its email system, and
somehow it is set up differently than a regular Google account, and as such
is not accessible. I would imagine that the national office is choosing to
go after the colleges and not google because the colleges have a choice in
what they choose to use when it comes to disseminating electronic
information. I believe it would be the responsibility of the college or
university to ensure that the software programs they use are accessible to
all students.
> 
> Just my thoughts for whatever they may be worth.
> 
> Elizabeth
> 
> 
>> Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2011 16:31:25 -0600
>> From: kirt.crazydude at gmail.com
>> To: nabs-l at nfbnet.org
>> Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps complaint
>> 
>> The only reason for doing this that makes sense to me is the NFB not
>> wanting to get in to a long, drawn-out court battle with google. I
>> know the Federation has money to spare...but going up against the
>> likes of google and winning would take a lot of money and, probably,
>> litigation. So maybe they see this as a way to bring about some
>> limited improvements and set a precident for the future? Sounds like
>> a stretch, but it's all I can think of.
>> Best,
>> Kirt
>> 
>> On 3/16/11, Laura Glowacki <orangebutterfly87 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I agree. Google has done a lot in the past with seeking feedback
>> > from users on accessibility. Obviously there are still things
>> > that need to be worked on, but has anyone actually approached
>> > google and offer to help with that process?
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Jorge Paez" <jorgeapaez at mac.com>
>> > To: "National Association of Blind Students mailing list"
>> > <nabs-l at nfbnet.org>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2011 3:39 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [nabs-l] confused - regarding - NFB Google Apps
>> > complaint
>> >
>> >
>> > I don't know,
>> > this just sounds odd considering how much talk there has been on
>> > this very list about
>> > precisely how accessible Google Apps are.
>> >
>> > Seems like a weird move by the leadership if they're trying to
>> > get attention.
>> >
>> > And get attention for what exactly?
>> >
>> > Jorge
>> >
>> >
>> > On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:30 PM, Ignasi Cambra wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think it's true that Google could do a lot more in terms of
>> >> accessibility, especially with Google Docs. But their email and
>> >> calendar services are perfectly accessible. Gmail even has an
>> >> HTML only version which is as simple as it gets. Also, the good
>> >> thing about Google apps is that you can use them through other
>> >> software. I use Gmail and Google calendar everyday with my Mac,
>> >> but I never actually open the Google site for that. I get my
>> >> emails through Imap and use iCal to look at the calendar and
>> >> add events etc.
>> >> In other words, I think this complaint should have formulated
>> >> differently. There are lots of things that can and should be
>> >> fixed, but saying that these services are not usable by blind
>> >> people in those universities is lying. My university uses
>> >> Google apps, and I'm not complaining about it because I can use
>> >> it...!!
>> >> On Mar 16, 2011, at 5:13 PM, Jorge Paez wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Precisely my thoughts.
>> >>>
>> >>> Where's the NFB suing Freedom Scientific?
>> >>>
>> >>> Or Google?
>> >>>
>> >>> Gosh knows Google could do way more then any school to fix
>> >>> that problem.
>> >>>
>> >>> Just my thoughts.
>> >>>
>> >>> Jorge
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mar 16, 2011, at 4:31 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Hello,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Google Aps are accessible with screen readers that have
>> >>>> innovated and
>> >>>> are able to use google apps such as NVDA for example. JFW
>> >>>> works, but
>> >>>> very limitedly. What happened to the screen reader companies
>> >>>> doing
>> >>>> their jobs and making things accessible instead of the NFB
>> >>>> getting
>> >>>> sue-happy *gain* and complaining because screen reader
>> >>>> companies are
>> >>>> falling behind? I don't think that Google has _ever refused
>> >>>> to work on
>> >>>> accessibility for anyone. Just saying ...
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Thanks.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 16/03/2011, Jorge Paez <jorgeapaez at mac.com> wrote:
>> >>>>> Hello fellow NABS members.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'm sure most of you have heard about the complaint National
>> >>>>> filed regarding
>> >>>>> universities using Google Apps.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> From what I understand, GMail is completely accessible but
>> >>>>>> the rest isn't.
>> >>>>> (I've never used anything more then Gmail in the apps as of
>> >>>>> yet),
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> but so far, I haven't seen many people use this.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Are we complaining because the University is mandating that
>> >>>>> everything be
>> >>>>> done threw Google Apps (part of which is unaccessible) or
>> >>>>> are we complaining
>> >>>>> for simply using inaccessible web applications that could
>> >>>>> potentially pose
>> >>>>> problems?
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Thanks,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Jorge
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
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>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Nimer M. Jaber
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The message above is intended for the recipient to whom it
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>> >>>> machine for security threats. However, I will not be held
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>> >>>> for any damage caused to your machine as a result of any
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>> >>>>
>> >>>> Registered Linux User 529141.
>> >>>> http://counter.li.org/
>> >>>> Vinux testing and documentation coordinator
>> >>>> To get more information about a free and accessible operating
>> >>>> system,
>> >>>> please click here:
>> >>>> http://www.vinuxproject.org
>> >>>>
>> >>>> To find out about a free and versatile screen reader for
>> >>>> windows XP
>> >>>> and above, please click here:
>> >>>> http://www.nvda-project.org
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Check out my blog related to technology by clicking here:
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